Doctor's Note

Please feel free to post any ask-the-doctor type questions here in the comments section and I’d be happy to try to answer them. And check out theother videos on diabetes. Also, there are 1,449 other subjects covered in the rest of my videos--please feel free to explore them as well!

Also, for more context please check out my associated blog posts: Watermelon For Erectile DysfunctionPaula Deen: diabetes drug spokespersonPreserving Vision Through DietPreventing and Treating Kidney Failure With Diet Plant-Based Workplace Intervention, and Cinnamon for Diabetes

  • Michael Greger M.D.

    Please feel free to post any ask-the-doctor type questions here in the comments section and I’d be happy to try to answer them. And check out the other videos on diabetes. Also, there are 1,449 other subjects covered in the rest of my videos–please feel free to explore them as well!

    • Happy :)

      Thank you Dr. Greger! Your information on this site is amazing!

  • Gio

    Since you seem to like PubMed/NCBI so much, the Paleo Diet offers a solution to diabetes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19604407

    • Ronin

      Paleo diet is an improvement over the standard American diet in SPITE of meat, not because of it.  What you are seeing there is the direct result of paleo diet including many whole plant foods, similar to the diet ADA recommends.  Anthropological speculation on a brief and turbulent period of human history does not dictate optimal diet, modern peer-reviewed science does…and a template like “paleo” has very little to support it.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    Somebody needs to do a study comparing the effects of paleo diet vs a whole foods plant based diet on Diabetes (and other diseases). Dr. Greger?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Diabetes might reasonably be described as a disease of carbohydrate intolerance:

    1. Normal stimulation of insulin production is impaired (type 1),

    2. or the response to glucose-stimulated insulin is compromised (type 2).

    If blood glucose levels are kept low via a low carb diet (plant based without refined grains fall under this category) diabetes symptoms won’t manifest.

    Low fat/no meat has nothing to do with treating diabetes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Here’s how you treat diabetes:

    Eat a diet that has less than 50 grams of carbs, all from non-starchy vegetables.

    Keep your proteins fatty (salmon, duck, lamb, beef) and eat smaller meals more frequently – 4-5 per day if possible.

    Stay normally active and strength train twice per week in a high intensity fashion.

    Viola!

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Dr. Greger –

    Why do you attribute the benefits to diabetics on a vegan diet to the vegan diet itself and not the lowered intake of carbohydrate and specifically refined carbohydrate?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    First, let’s stick to science as our guide, not popular opinion. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that eating meat is bad for you. The entire idea is ridiculous. Humans have been eating animal matter for as long as they have been human.

    However, if you have access to such controlled studies, studies I am unaware of, could you please place links to them here. It would be greatly appreciated.

    Unfortunately, the link you posted above does not provide any scientific evidence that meat is unhealthy. It is a link to a page with numerous videos many of which have nothing to do with diet or meat in particular. Could you narrow your suggestions?

    As for starch, starch raises blood glucose. The last thing that a diabetic wants is to raise her blood sugar levels. A starch based diet would be a completely irresponsible diet to place a diabetic on.

    The only way you could control diabetes (to a point) on a starch based diet is if the total amount and type of carbohydrate was considerably less than what the person was eating before. But then it’s not the starch based diet that is helping – it’s the decrease in total carbohydrate intake that is doing the trick.

    Research concludes over and over again that a low starch/carbohydrate diet is the best dietary approach for diabetics.

    http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/DietaryGuidelines/2010/Meeting2/CommentAttachments/Feinman-Volek2009-170.pdf

    Meat is not harmful and does not raise blood glucose significantly. Only carbohydrates can do that. and diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerance.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    There’s another way to control diabetes on a starch based diet, Fred: increased physical activity. There’s PLENTY of science to back that up.

    IMO, diabetes is more a disease of exercise deficiency than of ‘carbohydrate intolerance’. I seriously doubt paleolithic man spent most of his days parked on his ass like modern humans do. I also doubt he had unlimited amounts of large game to feast upon. I think he ate a lot of fruit and tubers, a lot of bugs, and some fish and rodents, with an occasional bit of larger game. And I think he spent most of his waking hours MOVING around in search of those things.

    Natural state of humans: parked on ass eating bacon? Or moving around and eating whatever is most abundant in the environment? I vote B, and live accordingly. And I suspect I look a lot more like Grok than your average low carb blogger.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Amber –

    What your saying, with all due respect, doesn’t make sense. Diabetes isn’t a condition of lack of exercise, it a condition of carbohydrate intolerance.

    You don’t control lung disease by continuing to smoke and jog 40 miles a week. You quit smoking.

    Increasing physical activity just burns up the sugar that you shouldn’t have taken in in the first place. But too much exercise is also not a good thing. You’re young. Obese 60 year olds are not going to start running 5K’s.

    Paleolithic man was only active when he needed to be. What paleo-man didn’t eat was ANY grain based foods and all his carbs came from seasonal fruits and vegetables. Most of paelo-man’s diet was animal based. That is a fact.

    I don’t know what looking like grok means. If it means you look fit, this may have everything to do with your genetics. I have many friends who look “grok” and never exercise. For 50 I’m pretty grok and rarely eat anything other than animal matter and some plants. I almost never eat grain and never eat processed food.

    As I said, the overwhelming majority of the evidence indicates that a low carb diet is the go-to diet for a diabetic. Exercise, specifically resistance training, is a wonderful adjunct.

    • Toxins

      Lets not assume what people did in the past and look at the science, plant based diets reverse diabetes, this is an undeniable fact. Eating starch on this diet does not slow the healing of diabetes, meat does.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        We are not assuming what people ate in the past – we know.

        Plants do not reverse diabetes – a lower total carbohydrate diet does. This is what a plant-based diet does inadvertently. It removes all the refined sugars from the persons diet and lowers their total carbohydrate intake.

        But a low carb diet dies this better and improves the diabetics condition all the while providing them with the necessary amino acids and fats they need.

        Where is your evidence that eating meat slows the process of reversing diabetes? Show me ONE study. Don’t look to hard because you won’t find a single one.

        • Toxins

          “a low-fat vegan diet appeared to improve glycemia and plasma lipids more than did conventional diabetes diet recommendations”
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19386029

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            That’s because conventional diets are too high in carbohydrate. It’s got nothing to do with the meat.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            HbA1c went from 8.05 to 7.65 over 74 weeksfor the vegan group in this paper:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/

            That is a miserable outcome. On a meat based, low carb diet, most T2D can reduce their HbA1c to under 6 in a fraction of that time. And HbA1C is one of if not the most important marker to lower.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            Also from the paper:

            “Much of the effect of the intervention diets on glycemia appears to be mediated by weight reduction. However, the 2 diets appear to have altered energy intake by different mechanisms. Although overweight individuals in the conventional diet group were prescribed an explicit energy deficit, a low-fat vegan diet typically elicits significant weight loss in the absence of prescribed energy intake limits (2). This is likely because reduced dietary fat and increased dietary fiber reduce dietary energy density (15, 16).”

            IOW, much of the benefit was due to reduced calorie intake not necessarily the diet itself. And as for the loss of weight in the vegan group in those who did not reduce calories, the real reason why they lost weight is lean mass loss.

        • BPCveg

          Fredrick:

          I agree with your suggestion that hunter and gatherer societies of the past ate lots of meat. But I disagree with your suggestion that this fact is somehow relevant to how we should eat today to obtain optimal health.

          If meat consumption in the past had provided the Darwininan selective pressure necessary to make meat a requirement for good health, then you would not need to argue with a group of vegans who are living perfectly healthful lives. In other words, it would be obvious to us too!

          The fact is that people can obtain all required nutrition by following a whole foods plant based diet while simultaneously  enjoying the benefits of a greater supply of antioxidants and a lower burden of toxins than obtainable on an omnivorous diet. 

          The studies that you are asking us for which would  definitively prove that meat is harmful will never be found because human studies are not perfectly controlled experiments. Since humans are not raised in confinement like lab animals, there are always sources of variability in human studies that cannot be fully explained. Therefore, common sense is required to interpret human nutrition studies in the context of nutrient composition of foods.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    Dude, it’s so not fact. It’s speculation. Plenty of primitive cultures even today live on largely plant based diets today (hello Kitavans). Paleolithic man’s diet was almost certainly dictated by his immediate environment. Largely plants in some areas, largely animals in others. Thank goodness humans are adaptive omnivores.

    Diabetes as a disease of exercise deficiency makes perfect sense. Humans are built to move. We stop moving and everything goes haywire, including our ability to metabolize macronutrients properly. Fiddling with those macronutrients isn’t the answer, it’s just a band-aid. MOVING is the answer. THIS there is scientific evidence for.

    Saying my appearance is genetic reminds me of my crossfit coach trying to rationalize my body composition (12.5% body fat) and strength (advanced level on most lifts, as a 40 year old newbie to lifting, and with arthritis in both knees) as a product of being ‘naturally lean’. Sorry guys, I was obese with metabolic syndrome just like millions of other Americans before I started exercising. I got this way by moving and eating real food, including plenty of starches. Not by eating bacon and sitting on my ass, which is pretty much what my crossfit was telling me I was supposed to do to get strong and lean. And pretty much how you are telling me paleolithic man lived.

    Bollocks.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    I find it quite telling that Dr. Greger has stayed silent.

    • Toxins

      Dr. Greger is quite busy and does not have much time to answer the many questions received on the website, I have volunteered to assist him.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        So why did he say this:

        “Please feel free to post any ask-the-doctor type questions here in the comments section and I’d be happy to try to answer them.”

        • Michael Greger M.D.

          I started out responding to every single comment but that rapidly because unsustainable as the site grew more and more popular. So far I’ve responded to more than 600 comments and still strive to get to as many as I possibly can. For a few of the latest, please see my weekend Q&A blogs. For example, yesterday: Ask the Doctor: Q&A with Michael Greger, M.D. (Week 6). Hopefully I’ll be able to feature one of your questions there soon!

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            Thank you Dr. Greger for responding.

            Q: Could you do me a huge favor and cite a single controlled study (not an observational or EPI study) that indicates that a high carb, low fat diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet (low carb meaning under 60 grams per day) for the treatment of diabetes. I have been unable to locate a single study and your moderator Toxins also has been unable to do so.

            Thanks very much!

        • Happy :)

          I ate paleo for a time while I was doing crossfit, about 3  months I ate that way… I had never felt more sick, more depressed or more lethargic before in my life!!!

    • VegMMA

      All your talk and yet you can only provide ONE MEASLY link to a study that semi-supports what you are trying to claim.  Fatty proteins of lamb and duck?!?  Are you just copy/pasting directly from a 1930′s Weston Price book or from your copy of Atkin’s Diet published in the 80′s?  It’s hilarious how you would ignore the mountain of evidence, recent and established, that completely contradicts the diet choices you are recommending. Your “diabetes 3 step plan” you posted is a very mediocre way to simply regulate blood sugar levels, and does nothing beneficial in regards to total health OR reversing the condition. I find it odd that someone who claims to be so educated on matters of nutrition would be SO IGNORANT to the multitude of information available regarding the detrimental effects of consuming an animal-based diet. You are obviously a very misinformed person, who just loves to parrot that misinformation to everyone.  Hopefully you just preach to the choir on your paleo-forums, your brand of BS is going to cause a lot of heart attacks.  Deluded individuals thinking they are going to become some “Mighty Paleolithic Hunting Warrior”, instead ending up with gout and ED wondering why they have an arterial blockage.  It’s hard to grip the spear with all that arthritic inflammation I bet.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    Ancestral health isn’t Dr Greger’s forte, I don’t think.

    I still would like to see a plant based whole foods diet pitted against a strict paleolithic diet. I actually think they’d fare pretty evenly, and health outcomes would be influenced tremendously by individual activity level.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    The Kitavans? How about the Inuit back at ya.

    Exercise hasn’t a thing to do with the issue. Quesiton for you – if a diabetic is on a high starch, low fat diet (why do you keep harping on bacon as if it is some sort of evil food?), do you agree that her diabetes will rage unless she exercises like a fiend?

    Conversely, if a person adopts a low sugar/carb diet, then they do not need to exercise like a fiend.

    Do you really think Paleolithic man was running all over the place all the time? Heck no. That makes no sense. Look at lions – they are sedentary most of the time. Then they engage in a high intensity effort, eat and then rest again.

    If what you eat requires you to exercise for hours a week, something is amiss with what you are eating.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    You’re making extreme assumptions about my diet and exercise, which I find a lot of paleo/primal types do (as well as vegans, to be fair). No one’s talking about exercising like a fiend, I’m talking about not spending 22 out of 24 hours either lying down or sitting on one’s ass. More walking, less sitting, that’s all I’m talking about when I say moving more. And yes, I do think that anyone who starts walking more and sitting less will see improvements in glucose metabolism, blood glucose, lipids, the whole 9. That’s how I think paleolithic man’s life was: lots of walking, some climbing, carrying children on their backs, an occasional sprint to outrun a predator or catch a small animal, squatting down when ‘resting’ as opposed to reclining in an armchair (keeps muscles engaged and ready to move), etc. I absolutely do not think paleolithic man spent most of his time blogging or playing video games, and the introduction of those activities coincides exactly with our obesity and diabetes epidemic. This has nothing to do with fiendish levels of exercise, I suspect my exercise routine looks very much like yours. That’s why we have had such similar results.

    Lions are pure carnivores. Humans are omnivores who are more than well adapted to eating plants as a primary fuel source. Saying we should adopt the lifestyle of a lion is, well…ridiculous. It’s perfectly fine for you to pound your chest and pretend to be a mythical caveman, but don’t try to tell me that that way of living is the One True Path to health. I’ve got some very pretty lipid numbers to prove you wrong. It is A path to health.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    “You’re making extreme assumptions about my diet and exercise, which I find a lot of paleo/primal types do (as well as vegans, to be fair). No one’s talking about exercising like a fiend, I’m talking about not spending 22 out of 24 hours either lying down or sitting on one’s ass.”

    ***No one does this. Talk about extreme assumptions.

    “More walking, less sitting, that’s all I’m talking about when I say moving more. And yes, I do think that anyone who starts walking more and sitting less will see improvements in glucose metabolism, blood glucose, lipids, the whole 9. That’s how I think paleolithic man’s life was: lots of walking, some climbing, carrying children on their backs, an occasional sprint to outrun a predator or catch a small animal, squatting down when ‘resting’ as opposed to reclining in an armchair (keeps muscles engaged and ready to move), etc. I absolutely do not think paleolithic man spent most of his time blogging or playing video games, and the introduction of those activities coincides exactly with our obesity and diabetes epidemic.”

    ****No it doesn’t as there are thousands of chess playing, violin practicing, model building, book reading, people who are not fat or diabetic.

    “This has nothing to do with fiendish levels of exercise, I suspect my exercise routine looks very much like yours. That’s why we have had such similar results.”

    ****I spend about 8-20 minutes a week exercising. Other than that I am a sedentary, book writing, journal reading, sloth.

    “Lions are pure carnivores. Humans are omnivores who are more than well adapted to eating plants as a primary fuel source. Saying we should adopt the lifestyle of a lion is, well…ridiculous. It’s perfectly fine for you to pound your chest and pretend to be a mythical caveman, but don’t try to tell me that that way of living is the One True Path to health.”

    *****I didn’t do anything of the sort. Perhaps I should have used the grizzley bear as an example. I only used the lion to suggest great strength and leanness with little physical activity. I did not state that we are lions.

    “I’ve got some very pretty lipid numbers to prove you wrong. It is A path to health.”

    Your lipid numbers might not be as good as you think. Do you have your LDL particle breakdown?

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    There are plenty of strong and lean herbivores I could point to in the animal kingdom as some sort of proof that human should eat plant based diets, but that would be ridiculous, because humans aren’t herbivores. Sure, maybe bears would be a better comparison, if humans hibernated half the year and spent the other half gaining hundreds of pounds in preparation for 6 months of fasting. Trying to justify lifestyle choices by comparing humans to other species is a slippery slope that I certainly wouldn’t want to find myself on.

    I know lots of people who spend 22 hours a day not moving. 8 hours sleeping, 8 hours sitting at a desk, 2 hours sitting in a car, 1 hour sitting at a dining table, 2-3 hours sitting watching TV or blogging or playing video games, you get the idea. Mario Brothers was released in 1983, and the early 80′s was when obesity rates began their steep incline. You can blame carbs all you want, but people were eating carbs before 1983 and not getting fat and diabetic. Heck, my dad grew up eating wonder bread, margarine and white sugar sandwiches and didn’t get fat.

    I see you’re one of those Body by Science types. That stuff works for most people just long enough for them to give a whole bunch of their money to the person selling it. Then it stops working (like most magic pills do), and the person is left wondering what they are doing wrong since it seems to be working so well for the person they just gave their money to. Eventually they come to me, and I teach them how to exercise adequately and eat within their energy requirements. You know, sciency stuff.

    Meh, LDL particle breakdown. My HDL is higher than my LDL, and my triglycerides are under 30, so even though I don’t know the particle breakdown, I have a pretty good idea it’s nice and pretty

    • Toxins

      This is true, Amber, we should strive to view the science of today rather than how we “think” we ate in the past. An interesting point is that we started out eating raw food. You don’t see any paleolithics though eating raw beef do you? Raw foodists of today are all vegan, yet they were shown to be not as healthy as whole food plant based people who cooked their food: http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/raw-food-nutrient-absorption-3/
      And some nutrients are BETTER absorbed cooked over raw:
      http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/raw-vs-cooked-broccoli-2/
      http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/raw-food-nutrient-absorption-2/
      As we can see, it doesn’t really matter how we ate in the past, although it may provide a good direction, it should not be what we base our diet solely on. Sure we ate meat in the past, but as i pointed out in the above post, meat is very harmful to our bodies in this day and age and is a cause of most of our degenerative diseases. If plants can reverse these diseases and keep us more healthy then why even consider meat?

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        Toxins,

        The paleo crowd does indeed strive to eat all their foods raw including chicken.

        I eat my meats as rare as possible and eat sushi frequently. Vegetables, due to their high cellulose content require cooking (and, may I add a lot of fat) for our bodies to derive the nutrients form them.

        Of course it matters how wea ate in the past so long as the past is pre-agriculture.

        There is no evidence at all that meat is the cause of our degenerative diseases. And these days it is very easy to find grass-fed, pasture raised meats to replace commercially produced meats. We buy half a cow and a pig from a local farmer and freeze it.

        If there is any food that is the cause of our degenerative diseases, it is grains. Ample evidence exists to support this statement. Start here:

        http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Cereal%20Sword.pdf

        If you ignore this paper, what can I say.

        • Toxins

          I am sorry Fredrick , but you need to review your sources and view the conflicting side as well because you are making claims that are clearly absolute nonsense.

          The paleo crowd does indeed strive to eat all their foods raw including chicken. ”

          Really? chicken raw? considering 95% of chicken in stores is infected with e coli or salmonella i find this highly unlikely.

          Your understanding of vegetables is also inadequate. Why on earth would you think you need to cook spinach or any other leafy green. The myrosonaise enzyme which is essential to good health is found in the cell wall and is deactivated when you cook it.

          I have already showed you that meat is causal to disease, if you choose to ignore that, then that is your prerogative, but quite silly might I add.

          This ONE study does not prove grains as harmful, considering that almost all previous civilizations’ staple diet were in most cases grains.

          I am not a doctor but I know how to find credible evidence, you have been seriously mislead. If you wish to discuss the topic with a real doctor in an active forum, please visit this link and pose your argument

          http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22

          Otherwise, we are running in circles.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            Toxins said:

            “I am sorry Fredrick , but you need to review your sources and view the conflicting side as well because you are making claims that are clearly absolute nonsense.”

            Please be specific. Rather than say this, why not post a link to a study that shows, as you claim, that eating meat is bad for you and that a low fat, high starch diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet for treating diabetes. You have to do this.

            “The paleo crowd does indeed strive to eat all their foods raw including chicken. ”

            “Really? chicken raw? considering 95% of chicken in stores is infected with e coli or salmonella i find this highly unlikely.”

            You keep confusing store bought, factory meats with free ranging, wild caught meats. Why do you keep doing this? No one is going to eat store bought meat raw. But if you grab a free ranging chicken, kill it, you can eat the meat raw. I’ve done it.

            “Your understanding of vegetables is also inadequate. Why on earth would you think you need to cook spinach or any other leafy green.”

            Because we don’t have the enzymes to breakdown cellulose. You know that right? It also decreases the oxalic acid. From Dr. Weil:

            “Concentrations of oxalic acid are pretty low in most plants and plant-based foods, but there’s enough in spinach, chard and beet greens to interfere with the absorption of the calcium these plants also contain. For example, although the calcium content of spinach is 115 mg per half cup cooked, because of the interference of oxalic acid, you would have to eat more than 16 cups of raw or more than eight cups of cooked spinach to get the amount of calcium available in one cup of yogurt.”

            “The myrosonaise enzyme which is essential to good health is found in the cell wall and is deactivated when you cook it.”

            You mean tyrosinase. This enzyme is found in meat as well. And I was not suggesting that you have to cook ALL vegetables. But you should add ample fat to your veggies to derive the nutrients.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

            “I have already showed you that meat is causal to disease, if you choose to ignore that, then that is your prerogative, but quite silly might I add.”

            No you have not. You have not provided a single shred of scientific evidence that meat causes harm. If you did and I missed it, please re-post the controlled study. Thank you.

            “This ONE study does not prove grains as harmful, considering that almost all previous civilizations’ staple diet were in most cases grains.”

            It’s not a study. Did you read actually read it? You didn’t did you?

            “I am not a doctor but I know how to find credible evidence, you have been seriously mislead. If you wish to discuss the topic with a real doctor in an active forum, please visit this link and pose your argument

            http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22

            Otherwise, we are running in circles.”

            You don’t have to be a doctor to understand the facts RE nutrition. It is Dr. McDougall who is seriously misinformed and is misinforming. Feeding starch (sugar) to diabetics?

            Once again, I implore you, post a single study showing that meat is harmful and a single study showing that a starch based diet is superior to a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes. I have asked you a dozen times now and you have yet to do so.

            Why?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    “There are plenty of strong and lean herbivores I could point to in the animal kingdom as some sort of proof that human should eat plant based diets, but that would be ridiculous, because humans aren’t herbivores.”

    ***Right, so I’m curious as to why you bring that up?

    “Sure, maybe bears would be a better comparison, if humans hibernated half the year and spent the other half gaining hundreds of pounds in preparation for 6 months of fasting. Trying to justify lifestyle choices by comparing humans to other species is a slippery slope that I certainly wouldn’t want to find myself on.”

    ****We are both mammals and have nearly identical digestive systems. That is the point.

    “I know lots of people who spend 22 hours a day not moving. 8 hours sleeping, 8 hours sitting at a desk, 2 hours sitting in a car, 1 hour sitting at a dining table, 2-3 hours sitting watching TV or blogging or playing video games, you get the idea. Mario Brothers was released in 1983, and the early 80′s was when obesity rates began their steep incline.”

    ****Chess has been around a lot longer than Mario Brothers and other video games and you don’t see anyone blaming obesity on chess, or checkers, or model building, or reading, or piano lessons, or meditation, or…

    “You can blame carbs all you want, but people were eating carbs before 1983 and not getting fat and diabetic.”

    Yes indeed they were getting fat. William Banting springs to mind. John Harvey Kellogg and others as well. But back then, they also did not have fear of fat that we do now and fat greatly slows the digestive process. And the worst offenders are the refined carbs of course not sweet potatoes or vegetables.

    “Heck, my dad grew up eating wonder bread, margarine and white sugar sandwiches and didn’t get fat.”

    ****Yeah, well, mine did. And so did virtually every person in my family. Some people smoke till their 90 and suffer little to no ill effects. It’s still bad for them.

    “I see you’re one of those Body by Science types. That stuff works for most people just long enough for them to give a whole bunch of their money to the person selling it. Then it stops working (like most magic pills do), and the person is left wondering what they are doing wrong since it seems to be working so well for the person they just gave their money to. Eventually they come to me, and I teach them how to exercise adequately and eat within their energy requirements. You know, sciency stuff.”

    Be more specific. What “stops?” Body by Science, like my book The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution are methods of resistance training that increase lean mass and help to reduce fat mass as well as produce a myriad of other health benefits that is well established by “sciency stuff.” Stuff you appear to be completely unaware of it seems.

    http://slowburn.typepad.com/my_weblog/files/phillips_2007.pdf

    When they come to you and start engaging in dangerous and forceful exercise practices like cross fit, they often get hurt and thus grow weaker.

    “Meh, LDL particle breakdown. My HDL is higher than my LDL, and my triglycerides are under 30, so even though I don’t know the particle breakdown, I have a pretty good idea it’s nice and pretty”

    My HDL is 90 and all my LDL are the large buoyant type. Tri’s are 44. So there! ;)

    • Toxins

      Again Frederick, debating the topic of how we ate in the past or our own personal experiences with nutrition is irrelevant to the topic of this video, that being diabetes being reversible with a plant based diet.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        OK let’s only discuss diabetes. T2D is reversible with a diet that is based primarily on animal matter. You are aware of this correct?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Toxins -

    In fact I looked at all of the related vids and did not see ONE research paper which indicates that meat is bad for you.

    Please provide a link to ONE study. If there is so much evidence to support this it should be easy to find and post here, no?

    • Toxins
      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        Yes you must add more Toxins because not ONE of these links above is a link to a controlled study indicating that meat ALONE is harmful.

        Some are just people’s opinions which mean little and some are EPI surveys – and we all know that EPI surveys are only good for making associations which should then lead to controlled studies, not hard conclusions.

        Association does not equal causation. Ever.

        From the Ornish study (which you posted 4 times):

        “low-fat vegetarian diet, stopping smoking, stress management training, and moderate exercise)”

        Given the multiple interventions, you can’t say that it was the diet alone that caused the plaque regression in SOME of the subjects. You could, in fact say that the diet aspect had nothing to do with the benefit. You could say that the diet, because it removed refined sugars and trans fats, caused the benefit. Smoking cessation was probably the reason why plaque regressed.

        I’m afraid you’re not reading the literature with an open mind Toxins. You want to believe that low fat, veggie eating is healthy and thus, you chose to believe anything that subscribes to this idea.

        As for the paper that said that meat contains trans fats:

        http://www.carolinehd.org/pdf/TransFatFAQ.pdf

        here is what a trans fat is:

        “Trans fat is the common name for unsaturated fat with trans-isomer (E-isomer) fatty acid(s). Because the term refers to the configuration of a double carbon-carbon bond, trans fats are sometimes monounsaturated or polyunsaturated, but never saturated.”

        Just like the fats in olive oil and vegetable oils! My oh my!! things you veggie folks eat tons of.

        This study only suggests that eating vegetables are good for you – and no one is arguing that. It sure isn’t indicating that meat is bad:

        http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/57/57_647.pdf

        This one discusses PROCESSED meats:

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18996878

        I’m certain that the nitrates, sugars and other additives in processed meats are no good for you. But it is not the meat itself.

        This one is only discussing western diets, (which are replete with carbohydrates), not meat alone:

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139128

        This one is about bowel movement:

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=20980354

        Thus far, you’ve presented not a shred of evidence whatsoever that meat is bad for you.

        • Toxins

          This is an exhausting conversation, because you are picking and choosing what fits your idea of health, which is flawed to begin with. From the beginning, I showed you that Dr. McDougall has successfully reversed diabetes for hundreds of people on a starch centered diet (high carbs) and to you this is “opinion”, yet this is fact, if you wish to argue “high carb bad for diabetes”, you can do so here http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22&sid=02702aab6c903fd993efad5492b3c1e9

          Regarding your misinterpretation of Trans fat, trans fat is not found in whole plant foods, unsaturated fats, like poly and mono, are not harmful and are different from trans fat. The point im making is that your trying to justify a rather nutrient poor food that is simply high in 1 macronutrient, protein, and low in everything else (vitamins, minerals, o antioxidants, 0 phytochemicals.0 fiber) as being healthy. This simply isn’t so. I have run enough circles with you on this topic, the studies above all correlate meat with poor health, and show what meat lacks, and show what harms come from meat. If you choose to ignore this that is your prerogative, but do not advocate a harmful food as healthy. I was even being conservative and showing only the studies that have to do with meat protein, I didn’t even delve into its high contaminant levels as well as viruses and bacteria that are present in today’s meats

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            “This is an exhausting conversation, because you are picking and choosing what fits your idea of health, which is flawed to begin with.”

            ****Flawed? How so? Please be specific. My idea of health WRT food, is that which provides the required nutrition without causing harm. Grains contain a host of anti-nutrients that meats do not:

            http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Cereal%20Sword.pdf

            All I asked of you was to present ONE controlled study indicating that eating meat is bad for you and a controlled study indicating that a fat/meat based, low carb diet was better than a plant based diet for controlling markers for diabetes and you still have yet to do so. How come?

            “From the beginning, I showed you that Dr. McDougall has successfully reversed diabetes for hundreds of people on a starch centered diet (high carbs) and to you this is “opinion”, yet this is fact,”

            ****And from the beginning I have tried to explain to you that adopting a plant-based/centered diet takes people off and away from highly refined sugars and junk sugars and this, not the plants themselves, are what reverses diabetes. But you are still causing the diabetic to have chronically high levels of blood sugar.

            I even pointed out that one of the studies you posted, after 74 weeks, the reduced calorie, vegan diet subjects glycated hemoglobin (HbA1C) levels – a critical marker for diabetics to control – fell by a mere .40 going from 8.05 (dangerous) to 7.65 (dangerous). 74 weeks! An ad libitum, low carb diet would have that number under 6 in 90 days or less.

            From Wiki:

            “In diabetes mellitus, higher amounts of glycated hemoglobin, indicating poorer control of blood glucose levels, have been associated with cardiovascular disease, nephropathy, and retinopathy. Monitoring the HbA1c in type-1 diabetic patients may improve treatment.[2]”

            The vegan diet didn’t do much to help in that study. Show me a study where a plant/starch centered diet controls and reduces HbA1c to normal levels.

            “If you wish to argue “high carb bad for diabetes”, you can do so here http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22&sid=02702aab6c903fd993efad5492b3c1e9

            *****I just might. Let me ask you this – do you agree that any diet that increases circulating blood glucose is detrimental for a diabetic? What is a glucometer for? I’d love to see how eating gobs of starch controls blood sugar.

            “Regarding your misinterpretation of Trans fat, trans fat is not found in whole plant foods, unsaturated fats, like poly and mono, are not harmful and are different from trans fat.”

            I simply posted what Wiki says about trans fats that’s all. If the info on Wiki is wrong, fine.

            As for meats, there is hardly ANY trans fats in meat. And not all trans fats are alike you know.

            “There are 2 predominant sources of dietary trans fatty acids (TFA) in the food supply, those formed during the industrial partial hydrogenation of
            vegetable oils (iTFA) and those formed by biohydrogenation in ruminants.”

            http://advances.nutrition.org/content/2/4/332.full.pdf+html

            “The point im making is that your trying to justify a rather nutrient poor food that is simply high in 1 macronutrient, protein, and low in everything else (vitamins, minerals, o antioxidants, 0 phytochemicals.0 fiber) as being healthy.”

            That is a doozy of a statement Toxins and is completely false. Animal matter is by far more nutrient dense per gram than plants. I can’t even believe you made this statement. FE: A single egg blows away the nutrition (save for a few micronutrients) when compared to the same calories in oatmeal. The amount of broccoli you’d need to eat to match the total protein in a palm sized (50 gram) piece of meat is, drum roll please, 5-6 cups! And the proteins in broccoli are not complete.

            Not to mention plants contain ZERO B vitamins.

            “This simply isn’t so. I have run enough circles with you on this topic, the studies above all correlate meat with poor health, and show what meat lacks, and show what harms come from meat.”

            No they don’t. You have YET to post a single actual study that indicates what you suggest. Pick one and post it. Then we can discuss it scientifically. Don’t post a huge list of things that are irrelevant to the subject as you did before.

            “If you choose to ignore this that is your prerogative, but do not advocate a harmful food as healthy.”

            Again, you have yet to provide a lick of evidence that meat is unhealthy. The fact that you cannot see this is incredible.

            “I was even being conservative and showing only the studies that have to do with meat protein, I didn’t even delve into its high contaminant levels as well as viruses and bacteria that are present in today’s meats.And bacteria is present in vegetables too for the same reasons – industry – not the foods themselves. ”

            Right! It’s the processing, not the foods themselves. Since you recognize this, why are you blaming meat? Why not call plants bad too since you admit that it is the processing? Can you not see the difference between processed meats and grass fed, pasture raised meats?

        • Toxins

          You can continue to claim that a high carbohydrate vegan diet does not treat diabetes, yet this is Dr. McDougall’s remedy. It doesn’t really matter what your opinion is at that point if it has been tried and true. Furthermore, no large population that is plant based, such as the okinawin have any of the same diseases as americans. Looking back through history, the super rich such as kings and poharoahs had high meat intake and developed similar diseases as Amricans today. Furthermore, we know what can reverse these disease, plants. So high meat consumption is not sensible anyway. Meat is harmful, it does not treat diabetes, it does not reverse disease. Like I said, you can continue citing studies but it doesn’t change this fact. I’d like to see Dr. Atkins reverse cancer or heart disease with his diet.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    “What “stops?” Body by Science, like my book The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution are methods of resistance training that increase lean mass and help to reduce fat mass as well as produce a myriad of other health benefits”

    And there it is. The magic pill. ‘Yes, you too can sit on your ass and eat bacon and still be healthy and lean, all you need to do is buy my book to find out how.’

    There is so much ‘neener neener’ and ‘I know you are but what am I’ going on in your posts that it’s time for me to bow out. I’ve made my point, better than you, and I’m no Denise Minger.

    My lipids are better than yours (last I checked, tri’s under 30 is better than 44, and a higher HDL than LDL number produces a ratio that would make a caveman cry), and I eat a starch based, high carb diet. So the argument (that I wager you make in your book) that starch and carbs cause low HDL and high triglycerides just doesn’t hold water. The body of scientific data supporting exercise as the optimal means of metabolic regulation is vast. The science is on my side, and I’m not trying to sell a magic pill.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    Toxins, it would behoove you to read Denise Minger’s critique on The China Study, it will arm you well as you go forward, as it’s trotted out by the paleo crowd pretty consistently.

  • Toxins

    Check out some of the comments regarding the critique on the China Study.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/china-study-on-sudden-cardiac-death/

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    Those comments are about Dr. Eades’ critique, not Denise Minger’s. Minger’s in better. I’m not saying I agree with Minger, I’m saying ‘know your enemy’. She makes very effective arguments, and it’s good to be well versed in them when you need to debate them. And you will.

    • Toxins

      I understand, thanks

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Amber said: And there it is. The magic pill. ‘Yes, you too can sit on your ass and eat bacon and still be healthy and lean, all you need to do is buy my book to find out how.’”

    Strawman. You clearly have never gone through a high intensity workout in your life. And, yes, you can sit on your ass almost all day, eat lots of fat, lifts weights for about 15 minutes a week and be lean, powerful and healthy. Like me.

    “There is so much ‘neener neener’ and ‘I know you are but what am I’ going on in your posts that it’s time for me to bow out.”

    That’s how your taking it because that is what you are doing Amber.

    “I’ve made my point, better than you, and I’m no Denise Minger.”

    Indeed you are not.

    “My lipids are better than yours (last I checked, tri’s under 30 is better than 44,”

    Better? Really? And that sounds like a “nyah, nyah” to me!

    “and a higher HDL than LDL number produces a ratio that would make a caveman cry),”

    My HDL is higher than yours however! Nyah, nyah!

    “…and I eat a starch based, high carb diet. So the argument (that I wager you make in your book) that starch and carbs cause low HDL and high triglycerides just doesn’t hold water.”

    If you are going to eat as you do, you damn well better be exercising like a fiend. Something you will not be able to continue as you age. Not to mention that by performing all the exercise you are, you are accelerating your aging process. Can you say excess cortisol? How old are you? Judging from your FB photos you look to be 40 or so. You won’t be able to keep up your activity level as it is for much longer.

    “The body of scientific data supporting exercise as the optimal means of metabolic regulation is vast.”

    Not exercise, resistance training.

    “The science is on my side, and I’m not trying to sell a magic pill.”

    That’s too bad. When magic pills work, people should have access to them. Like quinine for malaria.

    • Toxins

      I am still awaiting your reply to the many studies showing meats harms in my above comment. Cholesterol is only one aspect of true health.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        I replied above Toxins.

        After looking at each link, I found that not a single link you posted is a link to a controlled study comparing a vegan diet to a high fat, low carb diet. Neither are their any links to controlled research indicating that meat, in and of itself, is harmful.

        This paper shows a pretty poor outcome after 74 weeks on a vegan diet on HbA1c – a crucial marker in diabetes treatment:

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/

        The vegans lowered their HbA1c by a paltry .40. And the subjects still needed their meds!

        A high fat, low carb diet would have normalized or nearly normalized their HbA1C in a fraction of that time – probably in 60 days for most subjects.

        Thus far I have been unable to locate a single paper that shows that a vegan diet is superior to a high fat, low carbohydrate diet. If you know of any, I’d greatly appreciate you posting it here. Thanks.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        Further, high cholesterol levels, especially in women, are associated with longer life spans, less heart disease, dementia, depression and stroke. So if we’re going to use associations as proof of stuff…

        • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

          For anyone reading this who might be concerned, this was based on one study done in Norway in which higher total cholesterol was correlated with lower all cause mortality. The study did NOT control for medical disorders (like CANCER) that cause low cholesterol, and didn’t (AFIK) differentiate between high HDL and high LDL in relation to total cholesterol (if it did, I’d love to see).
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21951982

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            There are many more papers that dispel the myth that high cholesterol is unhealthy.

            And like I said, association does not equal causation. The same confounding variables are found in ALL papers that state that a vegetarian/vegan diet is healthful.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    I agree with you Fred. In fact,we probably agree on more than we disagree. I don’t believe dietary cholesterol causes high blood cholesterol, and I’m not convinced high blood cholesterol is unhealthy. I think the paleo diet is perfectly healthy. I believe that high intensity resistance exercise is superior to steady state cardio.

    Where we seem to disagree? I ALSO believe that a whole foods plant based diet is healthy. In fact, for some people (like me) it is healthier than strict paleo (which I tried. I gained weight and body fat quickly, and my energy and recovery were in the toilet).

    Like I’ve said twice already, I’d love to see a study comparing strict paleo and a whole foods plant based diet. I suspect they’d both improve health for anyone switching from a SAD diet, and individual activity level would be the predictor for degree of improvement.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    “I agree with you Fred. In fact,we probably agree on more than we disagree. I don’t believe dietary cholesterol causes high blood cholesterol, and I’m not convinced high blood cholesterol is unhealthy. I think the paleo diet is perfectly healthy.”

    ****You are indeed correct!

    “I believe that high intensity resistance exercise is superior to steady state cardio.”

    ****You betcha!

    “Where we seem to disagree? I ALSO believe that a whole foods plant based diet is healthy.”

    So long as it’s grain free, I agree. Vegetables and fruits do have healthy properties. Animal matter has more. IOW, meats are more nutritionally dense than plants by far.

    When people leave their western diet in the dust and become a vegetarian, it’s not the plant based diet that is making them healthy. It’s the cessation of junk foods that is causing the benefit for the most part. And yes, most plants are indeed good for you. But they are certainly not necessary. Even the DRI report states this.

    But more importantly, the idea that meat is unhealthy is completely unfounded. It’s a hypothesis that has no scientific basis whatsoever and has already been shown in numerous papers to be false. It doesn’t even make sense from an evolutionary standpoint. I’d like to hear Dr. Greger or Toxins (real name please) explain the exact mechanism by which meat harms us. Not hamburgers, not hot dogs made from nitrate ridden, chemically treated, meat by products, but pure meat. It cracks me up that the same people who give us thumbs up to fish give a thumbs down to steak. Why?

    You’ve seen this, right?

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2009/03/18/ajcn.2009.26736L.abstract

    “Conclusions: The mortality of both the vegetarians and the nonvegetarians in this study is low compared with national rates. Within the study, mortality from circulatory diseases and all causes is not significantly different between vegetarians and meat eaters,…”

    You said: “In fact, for some people (like me) it is healthier than strict paleo (which I tried. I gained weight and body fat quickly, and my energy and recovery were in the toilet).”

    First, when you switch from using primarily lipids as your fuel source instead of glucose, there is a time period of, shall we say, sluggishness. This is well documented by the works of Drs. Volek and Phinney. I have the papers if you want them. The research indicates that it takes over a month for full fat adaptation to occur depending on the individual. You must be aware of the writings of Steffanson.

    As for getting fat and unhealthy on a paleo diet, since I don’t know what you were eating, I can’t comment. But I’m not sure how this happened to you. I have never encountered a single client who adopted a paleo diet and got unhealthy and fatter. Not one person – and I deal with hundreds of people on a regular basis.

    “Like I’ve said twice already, I’d love to see a study comparing strict paleo and a whole foods plant based diet. I suspect they’d both improve health for anyone switching from a SAD diet, and individual activity level would be the predictor for degree of improvement.”

    Here you go:

    http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/9/969.full

    The Atkins diet fared best and only started to falter as carbohydrate intake increased.

    “Conclusions: In this study, premenopausal overweight and obese women assigned to follow the Atkins diet, which had the lowest carbohydrate intake, lost more weight and experienced more favorable overall metabolic effects at 12 months than women assigned to follow the Zone, Ornish, or LEARN diets. While questions remain about long-term effects and mechanisms, a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diet may be considered a feasible alternative recommendation for weight loss.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Additionally, physical activity has little to do with physical health. Diet is FAR more important for determining and altering our health. In the LEARN study, exercise was not a part of the design YET the subject became healthier especially in the Atkins group.

    While I agree that being a complete slug is not a good idea, the notion that you must spend dozens of hours a week moving/exercising is not supported in any scientific literature.

    Early humans repeatedly tried to find ways NOT to have to move too much and expend/waste a lot of precious energy. No animal exercises for the sake of it. This is why humans invented spears, traps, tamed and rode horses, etc. The idea is to conserve energy rather than waste it.

    • Toxins

      Frederick, you are losing credibility as I see your argument developing. I must object with your idea that physical activity has little to do with health.

      http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/halving-heart-attack-risk/

      http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/exercise-breast-cancer/

      http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/reversing-cognitive-decline/

      You can’t really believe a sedentary lifestyle compared to an active one is equally as healthful. This is simply nonsense.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        First of all, I did not say that being sedentary was healthy. I said that diet was far more important to ones health than exercise.

        Exercise can, to some degree, offset a poor diet mostly by decreasing excessive circulating blood glucose. However, if your diet is healthful, rich in fats, proteins and other real foods and low in carbohydrate, exercise becomes far less important.

        And if your diet is good, you’ll naturally want to be normally active. Lions are inactive most of the time. No animal exercises for the sake of it. If you must exercise a lot to be healthy, your diet is poor.

        There are plenty of healthy, inactive people. There are plenty of unhealthy, inactive people.

        • Toxins

          Were not lions, felines nor carnivores. Bad example.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            You missed the point yet again.

            And are you going to post a study that indicates that meat is bad for humans and that a low fat, vegan diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet for treating diabetes?

        • Toxins

          I already have, yet you choose to ignore the major body of science and stick with your hocus pocus studies. I will again post this by Dr. McDougall showing how he effectively reverses diabetes with a high carbohydrate diet.
          http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/diabetes.htm
          http://www.drmcdougall.com/res_high_protein_diets.html

          This is not an opinion, this actually happens. For making such an absolute claim that high carbs will never reverse diabetes and being shown to be utterly wrong, your argument has no validity.

  • http://gokaleo.com Amber Rogers

    “Physical activity has little to do with physical health.”

    OK, gotcha. :)

    • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

      In other words Amber, one can be perfectly healthy and not be very active. One can also be very unhealthy and very active.

      I am a perfect example of an inactive person who is extremely healthy. I enjoy reading, playing chess, pool, board games etc. Other than my 2 Slow Burn strength sessions that has me exerting myself for a total of ~15-30 minutes, I am pretty inactive. At 50, I am muscular, lean, and my doctor is constantly amazed at my health save for my total cholesterol. But we both know that a very high HDL can bring your total cholesterol into what they consider the danger zone.

      Diet has FAR more to do with health than exercise. How you exercise, not how much, is key.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Toxins said:

    “I already have, yet you choose to ignore the major body of science and stick with your hocus pocus studies.”

    No you haven’t. You have NOT posted a single controlled study that indicates that meat is harmful to humans. Like I said, if you did and I missed it, my apologies. Please then pick your best one and make it the next post you make rather than saying anything else. Please – show me up. Prove me wrong.

    “I will again post this by Dr. McDougall showing how he effectively reverses diabetes with a high carbohydrate diet.
    http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/diabetes.htm” This is not an opinion, this actually happens. For making such an absolute claim that high carbs will never reverse diabetes and being shown to be utterly wrong, your argument has no validity.”

    I asked you you to post a peer reviewed and published study showing that a high carb/starch diet was superior to a high fat, low carb diet for managing diabetes. You have yet to do so. Where is Dr. McDougall’s research? The McDougall link you posted above is his opinion, not scientific evidence.

    Where is the actual evidence? If it’s so readily available, post it here.

    • Toxins

      Read the articles, view citations at the bottom.
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/diabetes.htm

      This one talks about the high protein fad and its harms. enjoy
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/res_high_protein_diets.html

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        Toxins,

        I have read the citations. Not ONE of them is what I asked you for – a CONTROLLED study showing:

        1. That meat in and of itself (not hamburgers with BUNS) is unhealthy for human consumption.

        2. That a high carb diet is superior to a low carb, high fat diet for managing diabetes.

        See, after all this you are now seeing that McDougall is completely incorrect. His diet requires that the diabetic continue meds. He can’t normalize HbA1c on his diet. In short, his recommendations are flawed.

        This is McDougall’s OPINION and his conclusions are heavily biased with absolutely no science to support his conclusion that high fat, low carb diets are unhealthy.

        http://www.drmcdougall.com/res_high_protein_diets.html

        Tell it to the Inuit. The Masai. And dozens of other cultures that have based their diet around animal matter.

        This is one paper that McDougall uses to justify his position on starch and carbs as critical for diabetics:

        http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/10/2782S.full.pdf

        However, in the summary the researchers conclude:

        “Resistant starch or low GI diets may ultimately
        prove to have beneficial effects at some stage in the development of type 2 diabetes, but this remains controversial.”

        It’s controversial, not conclusive. Yet he cites this paper as evidence to support his position. Lovely.

        This paper also makes massive assumptions about fat:

        “Intake of dietary fat, particularly saturated fat, appears to be associated with insulin resistance in animals (23) and humans”

        Again, associated – not caused by. Who cares if it’s associated. You cannot base dietary recommendations using associations.

        This is the paper from the above paper which says that high sat fat a low starch was associated with higher fasting insulin levels:

        http://www.springerlink.com/content/fymvqhqrn4kd4lx7/

        Again, it is an observational study and thus it’s meaningless. It proves nothing. Nada. Zip. All it can do is spur on the need for controlled studies.

        What really amazes me is that YOU are not curious. I’m surprised that after all this discourse, you’re not at all interested in finding any hard evidence to support a high starch, low fat diet for diabetes or any that support that eating meat is bad for you. I find this truly mind-boggling.

        Dr. Greger is wrong. Dr. McDougall is wrong. Neither of them can produce a single controlled study indicating that a low fat, high carb diet is best for controlling diabetes.

        Since you’re his moderator, please ask him – tell him I beg of him – to cite ONE controlled research paper that indicates that a high carb, low fat diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet for controlling diabetes.

        Enough observational EPI papers. Let’s take a look at the real stuff.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Here’s one for you:

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-2-34.pdf

    Methods: From an outpatient clinic, we recruited 28 overweight participants with type 2 diabetes
    for a 16-week single-arm pilot diet intervention trial. We provided LCKD counseling, with an initial
    goal of <20 g carbohydrate/day, while reducing diabetes medication dosages at diet initiation.
    Participants returned every other week for measurements, counseling, and further medication
    adjustment. The primary outcome was hemoglobin A1c
    .
    Results: Twenty-one of the 28 participants who were enrolled completed the study. Twenty
    participants were men; 13 were White, 8 were African-American. The mean [± SD] age was 56.0
    ± 7.9 years and BMI was 42.2 ± 5.8 kg/m2

    Hemoglobin A1c decreased by 16% from 7.5 ± 1.4% to
    6.3 ± 1.0% (p < 0.001) from baseline to week 16.

    Diabetes medications were discontinued in 7
    participants, reduced in 10 participants, and unchanged in 4 participants. The mean body weight
    decreased by 6.6% from 131.4 ± 18.3 kg to 122.7 ± 18.9 kg (p < 0.001).

    In linear regression analyses, weight change at 16 weeks did not predict change in hemoglobin A1c

    Fasting serum triglyceride decreased 42% from 2.69 ± 2.87 mmol/L to 1.57 ± 1.38 mmol/L (p = 0.001) while other serum lipid measurements did not change significantly.

    Conclusion: The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were discontinued or reduced in most participants. Because the LCKD can be very effective at lowering blood glucose, patients on diabetes medication who use this diet should be under close medical supervision or capable of adjusting their medication.

    So how is this possible if protein is so unhealthy for you? Can you produce a paper that hsows better results than this using low fat, high carb?

    Or this one:

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/89/6/2717.abstract

    "The LF group better preserved lean body mass when compared with the LC group; however, only the LC group had a significant decrease in circulating insulin concentrations."

    The loss of lean mass in the LC group came from water loss, not actual lean tissue loss. But the important thing to note here is that only the LC group saw a significant decrease in insulin.

    And the reason is obvious – only carbohydrate significantly increases the secretion of insulin.

    The benefits of ketosis:

    Plenty of good hard data here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    I’m posting at the end so it’s easier to track the responses.

    Toxins (name please) said:

    “You can continue to claim that a high carbohydrate vegan diet does not treat diabetes, yet this is Dr. McDougall’s remedy.”

    Show me a single study.

    “It doesn’t really matter what your opinion is at that point if it has been tried and true.”

    Show me a study. I’ve shown you several on high fat, low carb diets for reversing diabetes.

    “Furthermore, no large population that is plant based, such as the okinawin have any of the same diseases as americans.”

    The Okinawan diet is not plant based. They eat a good deal of fish and pork. And their diet is devoid of commercial foods and sugars. That is the cause of western diseases along with grains.

    “Looking back through history, the super rich such as kings and poharoahs had high meat intake and developed similar diseases as Amricans today.”

    Actually the Egyptians were mostly vegetarians.

    “Furthermore, we know what can reverse these disease, plants.”

    No, we reverse these diseases by eating real foods and not eating junk and processed foods.

    “So high meat consumption is not sensible anyway. Meat is harmful, it does not treat diabetes, it does not reverse disease. Like I said, you can continue citing studies but it doesn’t change this fact.”

    Say what? Oh, I see. Let’s just ignore science and keep believing in the opinions of doctors who preach diets that are completely against what the research shows. Lovely. Good idea. What was I thinking.

    “I’d like to see Dr. Atkins reverse cancer or heart disease with his diet.”

    Wow. On one hand you say to heck with scientific research and then in the next breath want to see some. And I provided it to you!! Didn’t you read the studies I posted? You didn’t, did you? The Atkins diet had a more favorable impact on all of the markers that lead to cancer and heart disease than did the Ornish diet.

    http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/9/969.full.pdf+html

    Conclusions: In this study, premenopausal overweight and obese women assigned to follow the Atkins diet, which had the lowest carbohydrate intake, lost more weight and experienced more favorable overall metabolic effects at 12 months than women assigned to follow the Zone, Ornish, or LEARN diets. While questions remain about long-term effects and mechanisms, a low-carbohydrate, high-protein, high-fat diet may be considered a feasible alternative recommendation for weight loss.”

    So much for Ornish’s vegan diet which fared the worst of all.

    Humans only started to experience the diseases we are now riddled with about 5,000-10,000 yeara ago when grain-based agriculture reared its ugly head. Prior to agriculture, these diseases didn’t exist and humans were eating mostly animal matter.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Here’s another one for the library:

    http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/8/1/75/abstract

    “Over the last years, evidence has accumulated suggesting that by systematically reducing the amount of dietary carbohydrates (CHOs) one could suppress, or at least delay, the emergence of cancer, and that proliferation of already existing tumor cells could be slowed down…”

    • Toxins
      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        That’s right. Vegetables do not destroy cancer. In fact, since cancer feeds on glucose and vegetables are converted to glucose, a diet rich in plant matter will make cancer worse.

        • Toxins

          You are clearly delusional my man, please review the scientific literature then maybe you will begin to understand the power of a plant based diet. You are no doctor nor have you researched enough (clearly). You are making the absolute most ridiculous claims I have heard yet.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            Delusional eh? But I forgot – you prefer dogma over science.

            Let’s start here:

            http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/7/1/33

            The main source of fuel for all cancer cell is – do you know Toxins?

            Glucose.

            Starving cancer cells of glucose halts their progression. VLCKD are the key to starving cancer cells. Fruits and vegetables will not. They can even hasten cancer growth.

        • Toxins

          Do u understand that all cells need glucose for energy? To suggest to starve your body does not make any sense. Plants DO NOT grow cancer cells. Cancer cell proliferation is easily stopped by many plants.
          http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/veggies-vs-cancer/
          http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/1-anticancer-vegetable/

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            Did you read the paper? Do you read ANY of the papers I post here? Clearly not! The small amount of glucose that is needed is provided by gluconeogenesis. Ketone bodies supply the rest of the energy.

            Read the papers I post here will you?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    More:

    http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-8-75.pdf

    Conclusions:

    We summarize our main findings from the literature regarding the role of dietary CHO restriction in cancer development and outcome.

    (i) Most, if not all, tumor cells have a high demand on glucose compared to benign cells of the same tissue and conduct glycolysis even in the presence of oxygen (the Warburg effect). In addition, many cancer cells express insulin receptors (IRs) and
    show hyperactivation of the IGF1R-IR pathway.

    Evidence exists that chronically elevated blood glucose, insulin and IGF1 levels facilitate tumorigenesis and worsen the outcome in cancer patients.

    (ii) The involvement of the glucose-insulin axis may also explain the association of the metabolic syndrome with an increased risk for several cancers. CHO restriction has already been shown to exert favorable effects in patients with the metabolic syndrome. Epidemiological and anthropological studies indicate that restricting dietary CHOs could be beneficial in decreasing cancer risk.

    (iii) Many cancer patients, in particular those with advanced stages of the disease, exhibit altered whole-body metabolism marked by increased plasma levels of inflammatory molecules, impaired glycogen synthesis, increased proteolysis and increased fat utilization in muscle tissue, increased lipolysis in adipose tissue and increased gluconeogenesis by the liver. High fat, low CHO diets aim at accounting
    for these metabolic alterations. Studies conducted so far have shown that such diets are safe and likely beneficial, in particular for advanced stage cancer patients.

    (iv) CHO restriction mimics the metabolic state of calorie restriction or – in the case of KDs – fasting. The beneficial effects of calorie
    restriction and fasting on cancer risk and progression are well established. CHO restriction thus opens the possibility to target the same underlying mechanisms without the side-effects of
    hunger and weight loss.

    (v) Some laboratory studies indicate a direct anti-tumor potential of ketone bodies. During the past years, a multitude of mouse studies indeed proved anti-tumor effects of KDs for various tumor types, and a few case reports and pre-clinical studies obtained promising results in cancer patients as well. Several registered clinical trials are going to investigate the case for a KD as a supportive therapeutic option in oncology.

    • Louise

      I just read all of Frederick’s comments and Toxin’s responses. Wow! This guy is an attention seeker. He tries to provoke, instigate, “challenge” in order to continue all this attention. Unless he’s a neanderthal or lives under a rock, he can’t possibly believe most of the things he says. Even my meat eating husband wouldnt advocate for eating a diet higher in “fatty” meats! He believes his other good habits of exercise and no processed food will balance the meat eating, and does attempt to reduce meat/dairy/eggs. There is no mainstream medical board that would recommend MORE of these foods, even if not recommending a vegetarian diet. Look at all the time and energy Toxin put into answering his ludicrous statement, most of which would not benefit or educate the majority of the readers. Toxin is probably trying to help him but hes just stirring the pot. Hopefully his rantings have not influenced other readers who are trying to learn how to live a healthier life. Toxin – don’t waste your time!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    “Plants DO NOT grow cancer cells.”

    Plants convert to glucose and glucose feeds cancer.

    “Cancer cell proliferation is easily stopped by many plants.”

    Show me the research that supports this statement.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    http://missclasses.com/mp3s/Prize%20CD%202010/Previous%20years/Antioxidants/Mindblower.pdf

    This paper does not show that eating a diet rich in vegetables will help people with cancer. It shows that the extracts of a scant few vegetables and herbs help slow cancer growth in a petri dish.

    Did you read the study?

    • Toxins

      Of course I read the study, but I see, again, you choose to ignore the facts around you. If a high starch, plant based diet can reverse degenerative diseases in practice, I don’t really see the point in debating whether it works or not, because it does.

      Again I cite Dr. McDougall who has done so
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/may/healing.htm

      You may continue trying to tell me how bad starches are, but its like telling me the world is flat. You simply are factually wrong. We will see how well your future holds out on your dangerously unhealthy high meat, low starch diet.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    I ignore the facts? I’m factually wrong? Sure. If you read the study you cited, you’d have seen that there aren’t any humans in it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    You are using this link as “proof” of anything?

    http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/may/healing.htm

    This is charlatanism! No direct evidence whatsoever. Where is his research? So explain to me why I am as healthy as I am eating like an Inuit?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Well it’s been weeks now and thus far, no one who is managing this forum – including Dr. Greger – has been able to produce a single study indicating that a high starch/carb diet is better (or even equal to) a low carb, high fat diet for treating/managing diabetes.

    Silence is golden.

    • Toxins

      Here u go
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1736602
      2 things u say are not important help

      When fed in equal amounts (calories), beef raises insulin more than whole grain pasta, cheese more than white pasta, and fish more than porridge
      http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.short.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        Sorry – that’s not a citation comparing a low carb, high fat diet to low fat high carb diet for the treatment of diabetes. You’ll have to try again Toxins (real name please…).

        That paper (you only sent the abstract BTW) also included exercise as a treatment so, you have that nasty old confounding variable rearing it’s ugly head once again. Was it the diet that caused the benefit? The exercise? Both? We don’t know.

        What I DO know is that you have YET to produce a single paper that shows a high starch/carb, low fat/meat diet is superior to a low carb/starch high fat/meat diet for treating diabetes.

        And in the second paper you placed a link to (here’s the full text):

        http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+html

        Take a look at the glucose scores. That is the most important issue for diabetics by far. Much more important than the insulin score. Diabetics as you know use glucometers, not insulometers.

        Eggs: 42
        Beef: 21
        Fish: 28

        Grain bread: 60
        Brown rice: 104
        Potatoes: 141

        And then, of course, there is the little issue of glucagon. Dr. Greger can teach you about that (I hope).

        So much for a high starch diet. From the paper:

        “Protein-rich foods or the addition of protein
        to a carbohydrate-rich meal can stimulate a modest rise in insulin secretion without increasing blood glucose concentrations, particularly in subjects with diabetes.”

        And that is the point of a low carb/starch diet. Remove the carbs/starch and blood sugar stays low. Add starch and blood sugar rises the highest.

        Feeding a diabetic a high starch ad libitum diet borders on malpractice.

        Again and for the umpteenth time, show us all a single study showing that a high starch/carb ad libitum diet is superior to a high fat, low starch/carb ad libitum diet (I’ll even accept a controlled calorie diet)for the treatment of diabetes.

        Just one…Dr. Greger? Anyone?

        No one here is responding because no one can produce any evidence that a high starch/carb diet is any good. The only reason why Dr. Gerger, Dr. McDougall and others see a benefit to their diets is because they get their patients off of junk food like soda, candy, and other refined sugary foods. It’s got nothing to do with their diets and quite frankly, these doctors should be ashamed of themselves for suggesting the diets they do.

        • Toxins

          Again, you choose to ignore the evidence. I have already showed u the study that high carbohydrate diets helped with diabetes over the traditional diabetes treatment. You are not a doctor and you obviously have a sloppy understanding of nutrition. Good day Frederick, you will never learn.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            See? You can’t respond with any kind of scientific comeback. You just say things like “You’ll never learn.” or “It’s ridiculous.” But you fail to counter with hard data or any scientific information to counter what I’ve said.

            I just pointed out to you that carbohydrates cause much greater increases in blood glucose than fats/meats. All from the paper YOU cited!

            At present, my blood work, as stated before in the comments section is stellar. Tell me how that’s possible eating a very high fat, low carb, no starch diet.

            You can’t can you?

    • Toxins

      People are not replying because you have chosen to not accept the evidence on the other side.
      Here are some people who have been cured of diabetes on a high carbohydrate diet by Dr. McDougall
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/jason_wyrick.html
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/scott_raphael.html
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/star01.html
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/star02.html

      Furthermore your unbelievable statements advocating ketosis is ridiculous.

      “ketosis, occurs naturally when people are literally starving to death or seriously ill. During starvation this metabolic state is a kindness of nature allowing the victim to suffer much reduced pains of hunger while dying. During illness the suppression of the appetite frees the person to rest and recuperate, rather then be forced by hunger to gather and prepare food. Because ketogenic diets simulate this metabolic state seen with serious illness, I refer to them as “the make yourself sick diets.” As we will see below, another reason low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets deserve this title is they contain significant amounts of the very foods — the meats — that the American Cancer Society and the Heart Association tell us contribute to our most common causes of death and disability”

      “Mental health seems to be impaired by ketosis. Performance on the “Trail-making Task,” a neuropsychological test which requires higher order mental processing and flexibility was found to be adversely affected by the ketogenic diet (Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 19:811, 1995). Maybe this reduced mental capacity is one reason some people on the Atkins Diet profess to feeling so great.”
      http://www.drmcdougall.com/res_high_protein_diets.html

      I expect you to throw this evidence away as you usually do and stay with your tunnel visioned, poor dietary ways. It is a waste of time for me to debate this topic because I know how you will respond.

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        In your first example of the people who were helped by McDougall’s diet, Jason, he said and I quote:

        “I cut down on the pastas almost entirely, stopped drinking sodas…I finally got rid of the enchiladas…got rid of dairy entirely…”

        Cutting out meat, going low fat and becoming a “cheating vegan” did nothing to help his condition. As I said before, he simply cut out junk food.

        The second example, Scott, is completely disingenuous and misleading. The testimonial tries to paint meat and fat as the only food he ate along with caeser salads. Of course, that is not the only Scott took in. Why not list ALL the foods he ate instead of trying to make it look like meat and salad made him fat. In fact, it’s impossible to become obese eating in this manner. (Remember his Kentucky Fried Chicken was more than likely breaded and came with fries or mashed potatoes. Are we to believe he tossed out the starch and only ate the meat? Please.

        The third and fourth example, we have no information on. And they all included exercise. So this confounds the issue.

        As for ketosis, you didn’t read any of the info I sent did you. Your only retort is “It’s ridiculous.”

        When you go to sleep at night you are in a state of ketosis for many hours. Ketosis is a completely normal state of being. You can induce it by starving someone to be sure, but you can also induce it eating ad libitum low carb diet.

        “Myth #10: Ketogenic diets are dangerous.

        http://www.nmsociety.org/low-carb-myths.html

        Much to the contrary. This study found no harmful effects from a chronic ketogenic diet. In addition, the ketogenic diet is being studied for its neuroprotective effects and as therapy for conditions such as Alzheimer’s, cancer, Parkinson’s, diabetes and epilepsy.”

        You just don’t know enough about it and parrot what McDougall says.

        Find me a study that indicates that carb restricted ketosis is dangerous or harmful. Just one…

        In the first few days of carb restricted ketosis, some people do get foggy. This is true. But this quickly changes as the person becomes fat adapted. And the people who sugar the worst are the people who have been relying of sugar glucose as their main source of fuel for many years.

        McDougall’s opinions are just that – opinions. Time to cough up some real evidence that a high starch low fat diet trums a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes.

        • Toxins

          Must I restate my point that they now eat high carb no meat diets? Regardless of whether or not cutting out junk foods was the cause of the disease, their disease was reversed on this new diet. These are simply “star mcdouglar’s”, the ones who are featured. If you would like to discuss with a nutritionist about the topic visit the “ask jeff novick forum” and start a thread. I will gladly sit in and observe both arguments. Jeff Novick know much more than I and can present you with much more data then I.

          Here is the forum address
          http://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=22

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    “Must I restate my point that they now eat high carb no meat diets?”

    You’d have to prove that. The first guy admits to eating fish and eggs.

    And have you found a paper which supports the claim that a high carb, no meat/fat diet trumps a high fat, low carb diet for the treatment of diabetes?

    “Regardless of whether or not cutting out junk foods was the cause of the disease, their disease was reversed on this new diet.”

    You’re not thinking scientifically Toxins. If a person stops smoking and starts chewing gum and finds, over time, that their lung disease is cured, it wasn’t the gum that cured them. Do you understand that?

    “These are simply “star mcdouglar’s”, the ones who are featured. If you would like to discuss with a nutritionist about the topic visit the “ask jeff novick forum” and start a thread. I will gladly sit in and observe both arguments. Jeff Novick know much more than I and can present you with much more data then I.”

    I just might…

    • Toxins

      If someone has lung cancer from smoking and chews gum instead of smoking the cancer remains. Your example doesn’t make sense. We are talking about reversing disease here, not fixing a symptom. All of these people REVERSED their diabetes with this diet. I don’t have to prove that, this is the point they are featured. It is not one giant lie. Furthermore the first guy is vegan, so what your saying is not true, he doesn’t eat eggs or fish.

      Go ahead, i’m waiting to see your thread appear on the mcdougal forum

      • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

        I didn’t say cancer. I said lung disease like bronchitis or some other problem cured by the cessation of smoking.

        Now do you get it?

        Another example, severe eczema. It is well established that wheat and other grains are responsible for permeable bowel syndrome which can lead to autoimmune disorders such as eczema. So you quit eating wheat and grains and instead eat vegetables. Over time your skin condition is cured. But it wasn’t cured by eating the vegetables. It was cured by no longer eating wheat and grains which allowed the gut to heal.

        Do you need another example?

        Those people did NOT reverse their diabetes with McDougall’s diet. How do we know this to be true?Simple. Since people can also reverse and “cure” their diabetes on high fat, very low carb diets, it’s not the adoption of the diet per se that helped them. I gave you the papers so if you read them you know this to be true.

        Now the question is, what is the best diet for a diabetic to be on? Research currently indicates that a low carb, high fat diet is best.

        Show me otherwise. Remember – this is about THEM. It’s about what diets controls their blood glucose levels the most.

        • Toxins

          High fat in ones diet is not health promoting. I don’t know why you insist on this. Where is your research that high fat diets are healthful. This is the problem with America right now, high fat. Go in the search bar above and type in fat and you will see all of the diseases associated with high fat intake.

          • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

            “High fat in ones diet is not health promoting. I don’t know why you insist on this. Where is your research that high fat diets are healthful.”

            Where are the studies? They are listed above! You don’t read a thing I post here do you?

            Here they are again:

            Comparison of the Atkins, Zone, Ornish, and LEARN Diets for Change in Weight and Related Risk Factors Among Overweight Premenopausal Women

            http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/9/969.full.pdf+html

            “Conclusions: In this study, premenopausal overweight and obese women assigned to follow the Atkins diet, which had the lowest carbohydrate intake, lost more weight and experienced more favorable overall metabolic effects at 12 months than women assigned to follow the Zone, Ornish, or LEARN diets.”

            Carbohydrate Restriction has a More Favorable Impact
            on the Metabolic Syndrome than a Low Fat Diet.

            http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/DietaryGuidelines/2010/Meeting2/CommentAttachments/Feinman-Volek2009-170.pdf

            “Summary: The results presented here show that a diet restricted in carbohydrate can provide a more comprehensive improvement in the clinical risk factors associated with MetS than a LFD at reduced caloric intake. There are many options for treating obesity or the individual components of MetS, but carbohydrate restriction has the ability to target the range of markers with a single intervention.”

            A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity:

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa022637

            “CONCLUSIONS: Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost.”

            Check out table 4 in the above paper.

            Carbohydrate restriction improves the features of Metabolic Syndrome. Metabolic Syndrome may be defined by the response to carbohydrate restriction

            http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/2/1/31

            “We emphasize that MetS is not a disease but a collection of markers. Individual physicians must decide whether high LDL, or other risk factors are more important than the features of MetS in any individual case but if MetS is to be considered it should be recognized that reducing CHO will bring improvement. Response of symptoms to CHO restriction might thus provide a new experimental criterion for MetS in the face of on-going controversy about a useful definition. As a guide to future research, the idea that control of insulin metabolism by CHO intake is, to a first approximation, the underlying mechanism in MetS is a testable hypothesis.”

            Do me a favor please and read these papers.

            “This is the problem with America right now, high fat. Go in the search bar above and type in fat and you will see all of the diseases associated with high fat intake.”

            ASSOCIATED Toxins, ASSOCIATED! Association does not equal causation. Associated doesn’t mean caused by. Please tell me you understand this?

            The problem isn’t the fat in our diets. The problem, if any one thing, is refined carbohydrates.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    I posted this for Jeff Novick:

    “Jeff,

    Carbohydrate is the macronutrient that raises blood glucose levels to the greatest extent. Excessive circulating levels of blood glucose is the diabetics enemy. It is why they must use glucometers.

    Since diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerance, why does Dr. McDougall suggest that diabetics eat mostly carbohydrate?

    And can you list a few citaitons here for all of us which indicate that a high starch/carb, low fat/meat diet is superior to a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes?

    Thank you.”

    We’ll see if he responds.

    • Toxins

      He will always respond unless someone else answers your question well. I found your thread.

      For those who are reading the comments on this video you can view the post Frederick made here as well as the responses

    • Toxins

      None of your papers address a whole foods plant based diet, they just talk about high carbohydrate diet, which could simply be simple carbohydrates. I agree, refined carbohydrates are bad, it is not what im advocating. Complex Carbohydrates in the form of whole plant foods other than white potato is what im advocating. The issue I have with your diet is that it is not a long term healthy solution. Your diet is lacking in antioxidants, phytonutrients and fiber. This is not healthy. Furthermore, high fat diets go against all the data that says saturated fat and trans fat are not helpful but damaging to ones health. I don’t care about your cholesterol, your diet is not healthy.

      Furthermore, association does equal causation in most cases. If someone is having health issues with what they are eating, which is typically high meat, and switches their diet to plant based and it fixes their health issues, then yes, meat was the cause of their health issue. High meat intake is typically the cause of peoples health issues. I dont think you understand that you cant cure autoimmune disease with a high meat diet, nor can cancer be prevented or reversed on a high meat diet.

      I don’t understand your paleolithic obsession. I find it interesting that people idealize these ancient peoples. They had no knowledge of nutrition at all, they just ate whatever was available, it wasn’t about health and nutrition it was, eat whatever you can find to survive. They had very short lifespans as well so I wouldn’t idealize that, we have a lot more knowledge about what foods are healthy for us and we have the variety available to us to choose, they did not have that luxury. They hunted because during climate change, migration and famine or drought there was nothing else to eat. That’s like people in another million years saying back in 2006 a lot of people smoked cigarettes so why shouldn’t we?

      Your argument has not even SAMPLED the idea of whole foods plant based. The science is against your diet. With all the benefits to a plant based diet to eat high meat high fat is plain stupid.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    “None of your papers address a whole foods plant based diet, they just talk about high carbohydrate diet, which could simply be simple carbohydrates. I agree, refined carbohydrates are bad, it is not what im advocating. Complex Carbohydrates in the form of whole plant foods other than white potato is what im advocating.”

    And that is exactly what people who eat as I suggest eat as well. However, all grain products are refined. McDougall advocates eating a high starch does he not? The bottom line here is only carbohydrate, refined or not, significantly raises blood glucose. The more of these foods you eat, the higher your blood glucose levels will be compared to a low carb diet.

    “The issue I have with your diet is that it is not a long term healthy solution. Your diet is lacking in antioxidants, phytonutrients and fiber. This is not healthy.”

    How so? See, once again you make assertions like “it is not a long term healthy solution” with no scientific evidence to support your statement. You’re just saying it to say it. And tell me how a diet that has plant food in every meal lacking in fiber and nutrients? Animal matter, ounce for ounce, has much more vitamins and nutrients than grains. I have never said to toss out vegetables, just grains.

    “Furthermore, high fat diets go against all the data that says saturated fat and trans fat are not helpful but damaging to ones health.”

    What data? And your lumping trans fats in with saturated fats. You said above not all carbs are the same, right? Same with fats.

    Here’s some data on sat fats for you:

    http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.full.pdf+html

    Conclusions: A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that
    dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD.

    “I don’t care about your cholesterol, your diet is not healthy.”

    Then why am I so healthy?

    “Furthermore, association does equal causation in most cases. If someone is having health issues with what they are eating, which is typically high meat, and switches their diet to plant based and it fixes their health issues, then yes, meat was the cause of their health issue.”

    No, it might be the type of meat, or the other things they were eating with the meat. No hamburgers and hot dogs, no more buns made with hydrogenated oils, no more ketchup, fake cheese, etc. This is what you are having trouble understanding.

    “High meat intake is typically the cause of peoples health issues.”

    Prove it. Show me a controlled study that supports your statement. The burden of proof lies with the claimant. I have shown you with several scientific citations that diabetes and metabolic syndrome is greatly improved on a high fat, low car diet. You have yet to produce evidence to support your position.

    “I dont think you understand that you cant cure autoimmune disease with a high meat diet, nor can cancer be prevented or reversed on a high meat diet.”

    I have shown you much evidence that cancer is cured with a high fat, zero carb, lowered calorie diet. And I have given you solid scientific evidence that it is grain, not meat, that is the cause of autoimmune diseases.

    http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/EvolutionPaleolithic/Cereal%20Sword.pdf

    But you don’t read anything I present.

    “I don’t understand your paleolithic obsession. I find it interesting that people idealize these ancient peoples. They had no knowledge of nutrition at all, they just ate whatever was available, it wasn’t about health and nutrition it was, eat whatever you can find to survive.”

    You mean like animals in the wild? You make it sound like it’s a bad thing to eat naturally.

    “They had very short lifespans as well so I wouldn’t idealize that,”

    That is not true. Once again you are simply stating things as fact that are not fact.

    “we have a lot more knowledge about what foods are healthy for us and we have the variety available to us to choose, they did not have that luxury.”

    They didn’t need it. And I am presenting you with the data on what is healthy and what is not. There is much we don’t know but until there is any evidence that fat and meat is unhealthy, it is irresponsible for Drs. like McDougall and Greger to state such.

    “They hunted because during climate change, migration and famine or drought there was nothing else to eat.”

    You have no idea what you are talking about Toxins. You clearly are not well read on the subject and you know it. They hunted, like lions hunt, because animal matter is the most nutrient dense food there is for the human being. As an example, to equal the amount of protein in a palm sized piece of steak, you’d need to eat 5 cups of raw broccoli or 7 cups of cooked broccoli not to mention that the protein in broccoli is not a complete protein either with no B vitamins.

    “That’s like people in another million years saying back in 2006 a lot of people smoked cigarettes so why shouldn’t we?”

    That is a VERY poor analogy. We know cigarettes are unhealthy. We do not know that meat and fat is unhealthy. In fact, we know it is very healthy and absolutely necessary to live robustly – unless you take man-made supplements.

    “Your argument has not even SAMPLED the idea of whole foods plant based. The science is against your diet.”

    Is it? Then would you please provide the scientific citations that support your claim.

    “With all the benefits to a plant based diet to eat high meat high fat is plain stupid.”

    There isn’t any benefit to a grain based diet. Vegetables certainly have their place, but are not necessary as we can see from the tribal Inuit and many other peoples who ate virtually no plant matter.

    I challenge you to only eat plants, nothing, and I mean nothing commercially created at all, take no supplements whatsoever, and see how you fare in one year. Eat only the plant foods you could find in the wild. Want to take that challenge? I’d be happy to do the reverse – only eat animal matter for a year. We’ll compare our blood work.

    Ready?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Well Toxins, I told you nobody would be able to produce a single paper showing that a high carb, low fat diet was superior to a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes.

    Dr. McDougall didn’t even answer. Telling indeed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    And it appears they removed the entire thread I created on McDougall’s forum! Talk about scared to face the truth!

    Unbelievable.

    • Toxins

      Well, it seems there IS no study comparing the 2 in the same situation. Maybe you should do one.
      The thread was deleted because you were demanding a study that didn’t exist and they thought you were just trolling. Its alright though, your idealization of the Inuit and maize is not something I idealize. Enjoy your short lifespan.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Well if there are no studies, then how can you, McDougall, Greger state that a high starch, low fat diet is best? What are you basing your information on?

    The thread was deleted because I challenged their information. Rather than admit that the studies I asked for didn’t exist (an easy answer), effectively admitting that there is no actual evidence which supports a high carb/starch, low fat diet as the best treatment for diabetes, they were awoken to ugly facts that the moderators didn’t want their followers knowing about. So they deleted it.

    It’s disgusting.

    Science can only be repressed for so long. VERY soon the McDougall’s and Greger’s of the world will be called to task.

    Longevity has a lot more to do do with genetics than diet. The longest lived people in the world were not necessarily vegetarians. Many were meat eaters, smokers, drinkers, non exercisers, etc.

    You should know that. The fact is at 50 I am extremely healthy, lean, muscular, fit and prolific. The bulk of my diet is animal matter.

    If my way of eating was so unhealthy, the Atkins forums would be replete with complaints. We’d hear about Atkins advocates dropping like flies all the time.

    Gonna take my vegan vs. meat eating challenge?

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn
  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    What I posted had research behind it. where’s the research to support this ridiculous article?

    • Toxins

      Click highlighted hyperlinks and there are references on the right and side

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    I have. There are no controlled studies refuting the Atkins diet. Do you know what a controlled study is?

    • Toxins

      The article was written by Dr. Greer and if you read it fully, it shatters your paradigm of no carb high fat.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Dr. Greger you mean. I’ve read the book. It’s garbage. Again, no scientific research to support his claims.

    • Toxins

      How can you say that when he has 1,160 references, many of which is research and studies. You are just like Dr. Atkins, you cherry pick information to fit your current paradigm of nutritional understanding.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    Toxins – I will say this for the LAST time. Why you don’t understand this I really can’t say.

    References do not equal studies.
    Studies do not equal controlled studies.

    I have asked you, Dr. Greger, Dr. McDougall, Dr. Ornish, Dr. Essylstein, and several others to produce a single controlled study indicating that:

    1. A low fat, high carb/starch diet is superior to a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes. None of you have been able to produce a single paper.

    2. A high fat/meat diet is unhealthy. Again, nothing.

    The burden of proof lies with the claimant. That’s what makes good science. You make a claim only when you have solid research to back that claim up.

    I have provided several controlled studies indicating that a low carb, high fat diet is the best diet for treating diabetes and that it is not deleterious to one’s health.

    You have provided not a single controlled study to support your vegan/vegetarian diet other than to show that it is a healthier way to eat than the SAD diet. That we agree on for the most part.

    The point here again is, can you or Dr. Greger or anyone who supports your way of eating provide a controlled study showing that a LF,HC diet is superior to a HF/LC diet. Until you can, you should stop making the claim that your diet is superior to a LC/HF diet for treating diabetes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/FredrickHahn Fredrick Hahn

    I want to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to Dr. Greger for calling his book Carbphobia “garbage.” That said, I’d still like to see the references to the controlled research that support the many condemning statements he made about fat and meat.

    But I do apologize. It was wrong of me to say that.

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    True science? He doesn’t offer a shred of evidence. He’s just stating his opinions.

    and Dr. Greger has yet to provide any evidence that a low fat, high carbohydrate diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet for treating diabetes.

    His excuse for not engaging with me anymore was that I called his book “garbage.” But even though I apologized personally and publicly, he uses this as his out.

    The fact is that a high fat, low carb diet is FAR superior in every way to a low fat, high carb diet for treating diabetes. To hide this fact from patients as a physician is malpractice.

    For shame.

    • Toxins

      Yes Fred, true science. He cites many credible sources. Watch a few of them before you become judgmental. He brings about the mass amount of flaws with your diet.

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    I did watch it.

    He uses ad hominem arguments against Dr. Cordain (5:20 into the video) Art DeVany, Mark Sisson and cleverly leaves out Dr. Feinman, Dr. Eades, Dr. Davis, Dr. Volek and many other experts who support a paleo diet who DO have the credentials.

    He also shows pictures of vegan body builders who are obviously taking anabolic agents (early on in the video).

    He also fails to understand that a paleo diet includes many plant foods. Just no grains.

    After admitting he doesn’t know anything about leaky gut (permeable bowel syndrome which is recognized as a legit medical condition by the AMA), I love it when he says:

    “But what I DO know is that a paleo diet is a fad diet.”

    What a crack up. He bashes people like Dr. Cordain credentials and though he has no credentials either, HE KNOWS. LOL. Classic.

    As I mentioned to you, and to which you did not reply, try eating only plants for a few months. Eat no commercially created foods like fortified soy burgers and take no vitamin or mineral supplements – IOW adopt a TRUE vegan diet – and see how long it takes before you become weak, sick and malnourished.

    I on the other hand will eat only animal products. Meat, organs, etc.

    But you won’t take that challenge will you? And it seems you are too afraid to even discuss it.

    • Toxins

      So you watched the introductory video and now everything he says is false even with his mass amount of scientific references? I think you are the one who is afraid to even see the opposing argument. You have no credentials yourself to advocate such a diet, stop being hypocritical.

    • kaodjs1

      It’s true that vegans require B12 supplementation (and Dr. Greger recommends algae-derived DHA as well). Paleo-diet promoters like to point out that because B12 vitamins are new on the human species’ timeline, we are not evolved to eat a purely vegan diet, and because we are not evolved to eat it, they argue, a purely vegan diet is not optimal for human health. It’s true that our need for B12 shows that we did not evolve to eat a purely vegan diet. In fact, there were wide variations among ancient hunter-gatherer diets, ranging from mostly meat to mostly vegan. Aside from the obvious problem of defining what our ancestors evolved to eat in light of the diversity of their diets, most paleo-diet fans miss the obvious fact that humans definitely did not evolve to eat the meats of today (even if grass-fed and free-range, although that IS healthier than factory-farmed) or the fish swimming in our polluted seas. As studies profiled on this website repeatedly show, the meats you find at a modern grocery store are packed with substances (e.g., antibiotics and other feed additives) and composed of manipulated genes found nowhere in our species’ dietary evolution. Today’s meats (and today’s seafood animals) are, as the body of medical and nutritional literature shows, bad for human health. The body of evidence supports that — for those of us without the time and space to run down wild game, raise free-range livestock genetically unaltered since the dawn of modernity on those animals’ evolved diets, or fish in unpolluted waters — a plant-based diet with proper B12 and algae-derived long-chain fatty acid supplementation is our best bet for meeting our evolved dietary needs in today’s world, where there is limited farmland, dwindling wildlife, and 6.5 billion people to feed.

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    The citations he is using do not support his arguments. They are not controlled scientific papers.

    And now YOU use an ad hominem argument too!

    If you and he are right – that people who don’t have credentials in nutrition should be discussing nutrition – then he should not be doing so and worse, it neuters ALL his arguments.

    So much for his video series!

    And since references are so very important, why does he flash them on the screen so incredibly quickly? I had to spend 15 minutes trying to lock-pause on them and then I had to use a magnifying glass to read them. What a joke.Why not let people see them fully?? The answer is clear: He doesn’t want you to.

    And you STILL haven’t answered my vegan/meat eating challenge.

    • Toxins

      If you paid any attention to what he was saying, you would know he has the citations go quickly because he explicitly states that you can either pause the video and read them or you can let the video flow for a general understanding. I never said that people who don’t have credentials should not be discussing nutrition, this is what YOU implied! Stop putting words in my mouth!

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    “If you paid any attention to what he was saying, you would know he has the citations go quickly because he explicitly states that you can either pause the video and read them or you can let the video flow for a general understanding.”

    Go to the first video and try to pause on the references. You can’t.

    “I never said that people who don’t have credentials should not be discussing nutrition, this is what YOU implied! Stop putting words in my mouth!”

    You said:

    “You have no credentials yourself to advocate such a diet, stop being hypocritical.”

    Perhaps I misunderstood you. The point is he is wrong for trying to suggest that since Dr. Cordain doesn’t have the credentials, what he is saying is not valid. That is an ad hominem argument.

    What about my challenge?

  • DrDons

    Hi Frederick, I will come at your challenge from a different perspective. How we come to our beliefs and practices is complex. The most cited reference is Kuhn’s Structure of the Revolution where he talks about scientific studies gradually accumulating until there is a “paradigm shift” to a new model. Having practiced adult medicine for over 30 years with the last 5 focusing on adding nutrition and exercise prescriptions to my practice and spending the last 4 years giving educational talks to physicians and lay persons I have come to the belief that a properly done whole foods plant based diet with supplemental B12 is the best diet to avoid many of the chronic diseases afflicting us. Beyond my professional experience I have also had the personal experience of going from SAD to Vegetarian to now 5+ years plant based. All the studies that I have seen seem to support my beliefs and the ones that I have reviewed that support meat eating are flawed or narrowly focused. When you introduce change to a complex system you need to measure all outputs otherwise you run the risk of helping one measure and harming others. In complex systems you get the best results by not violating system design. We are designed as herbivores. The fact that we can function as omnivores doesn’t change our design. I will comment on diabetes since alot of your posts seem to rest on the misconception that the cause of diabetes is carbohydrates. It is true that type 2 diabetes is a glucose processing problem but the “upstream” cause is the fats in the diet( both animal and plant fats). They interfere with insulin and turn of the genes that run the mitochondria that burn glucose. This is supported by the fact that Dr. Barnard’s study showed that a low fat plant based diet was superior to the ADA diet in controlling HgbA1C and reducing medications. He doesn’t cite the number of diabetics who were cured(off medication with normal glucoses). In the last two years of my practice using Dr. Barnard’s approach I had 15 diabetic patients “cure” themselves. More recently I had the opportunity to take care of a patient at the McDougall clinic who came in on two hypoglycemic agents with a fasting blood sugar of 159. I took him off his meds and he went on an 8 day low fat starch based diet. At the end of 8 days his sugar was 129.(He also was taken off his BP meds and left with a lower BP than when he came into the program, he also stopped his TUMS as his reflux was gone). He continued the diet on return to home and 4 months later his sugar was 100. Six months later he stopped home testing as his fasting sugars were in the low 80′s. As of last month his weight is down 70#. He is off all medications including his statin for cholesterol. I know that individual antedotal stories don’t “prove” anything but it is experiences like this that cement my beliefs. I provide four studies for your review:Sparks et al, Diabetes, 52(2002): Fat in diet down regulates the genes that produce mitochondria. Petersen et al, NEJM, 350(2004): Fat in diet increases insulin resistance within cells. Goff et al, European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 59(2005): Vegan diet shows reduced intracellular fat and decreased insulin resistance. Anderson, JW & Ward, KD, High-carbohydrate, high-fiber diets for insulin-treated men with diabetes mellitus, Am J Clin Nutr, 32,Nov 1979, p 2312-2321. I also would invite you to view my presentation to the San Francisco Vegetarian Society at http://www.archive.org/details/sfvs_2010_11_13_Don_Forrester. I would be interested in your comments and would be glad to furnish references. My final comment is that the science is constantly changing so it is important to keep up… you never no when you will reach the “tipping point” to a new belief system. I doubt if I met your challenge but hopefully you found some of my comments and information interesting. Best wishes for continuing health.

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    “Hi Frederick, I will come at your challenge from a different perspective. How we come to our beliefs and practices is complex. The most cited reference is Kuhn’s Structure of the Revolution where he talks about scientific studies gradually accumulating until there is a “paradigm shift” to a new model. Having practiced adult medicine for over 30 years with the last 5 focusing on adding nutrition and exercise prescriptions to my practice and spending the last 4 years giving educational talks to physicians and lay persons I have come to the belief that a properly done whole foods plant based diet with supplemental B12 is the best diet to avoid many of the chronic diseases afflicting us.”

    Hi Dr. Dons –

    As I mentioned earlier and in several posts here and at Dr. McDougall’s site (to which I received no response), when you take a person off of a typical Western diet and place them on a vegan diet, their health will improve. But their health does NOT improve BECAUSE of the plants, it improves mainly because you have removed the carcinogens and junk foods which damage their health.

    If you fasted the typical American for three days giving them plenty of fresh water, their health would also improve. But this does not mean no food is better than some food. So I have no doubt that a vegan diet is, in the short term *better* than a Western fake food diet. But I must point out that having to give your patients B supplements is a tell tale sign of a diet deficient in meats. A healthful diet should require no supplements.

    “Beyond my professional experience I have also had the personal experience of going from SAD to Vegetarian to now 5+ years plant based. All the studies that I have seen seem to support my beliefs and the ones that I have reviewed that support meat eating are flawed or narrowly focused.”

    Can you be more specific? Flawed how?

    And how do you explain cultures who eat a lot of meat (like the Inuit) who experience extremely good health? How do you explain my family and I and the many who eat as we do who enjoy stellar health?

    “When you introduce change to a complex system you need to measure all outputs otherwise you run the risk of helping one measure and harming others. In complex systems you get the best results by not violating system design. We are designed as herbivores.”

    This is entirely untrue. We are clearly omnivorous. Stop supplementing your patients with B vitamins and see what happens to them.

    “The fact that we can function as omnivores doesn’t change our design.”

    No it dictates our design.

    “I will comment on diabetes since alot of your posts seem to rest on the misconception that the cause of diabetes is carbohydrates.”

    That is a strawman argument. I never once said that. My point and argument is that if you are a diabetic, the go to diest should be low carbohydrate, high fat not low fat high carbohydrate since diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerence. Carbohydrates do not cause type II diabetes. No one ever developed type II diabetes by eating mainly animal matter and some plant matter.

    “It is true that type 2 diabetes is a glucose processing problem but the “upstream” cause is the fats in the diet( both animal and plant fats).”

    Please provide the evidence of this and then explain why a high fat, low carb diet always reverses type II diabetes. If what you say is true, a high fat diet would always worsen the condition. It never does.

    “They interfere with insulin and turn of the genes that run the mitochondria that burn glucose.”

    This is no true.

    “This is supported by the fact that Dr. Barnard’s study showed that a low fat plant based diet was superior to the ADA diet in controlling HgbA1C and reducing medications.”

    Again, the ADA diet allows for too much total refined carbohydrates which cause quickly elevated blood glucose levels. Fat does not affect blood glucose at all. And you’re forgetting that a high fat, low carb diets always defeats a low fat, vegan diet for blood glucose control. Again I ask you or anyone to produce a single study that indicates that a low fat, high carb/starch diet is superior for controlling diabetes when compared to a high fat, low carb diet. Just one please.

    “He doesn’t cite the number of diabetics who were cured(off medication with normal glucoses). In the last two years of my practice using Dr. Barnard’s approach I had 15 diabetic patients “cure” themselves.”

    If they were eating a SAD diet before, I have no doubt this is true. This still does not indicate that it is the best approach which is what I am arguing.

    “More recently I had the opportunity to take care of a patient at the McDougall clinic who came in on two hypoglycemic agents with a fasting blood sugar of 159. I took him off his meds and he went on an 8 day low fat starch based diet. At the end of 8 days his sugar was 129.”

    Had you put him on a high fat, no starch diet his blood sugars would have been much better than that. Again, this is my entire point. You’re a doctor – it is your responsibility to do what IS best for the patient not what you believe is best.

    “(He also was taken off his BP meds and left with a lower BP than when he came into the program, he also stopped his TUMS as his reflux was gone).”

    This is due to the cessation of his high refined carb diet.

    “He continued the diet on return to home and 4 months later his sugar was 100. Six months later he stopped home testing as his fasting sugars were in the low 80′s. As of last month his weight is down 70#. He is off all medications including his statin for cholesterol. I know that individual antedotal stories don’t “prove” anything but it is experiences like this that cement my beliefs.”

    Again, a high fat, low starch diet would have seen these same benefits and even better much sooner.

    “I provide four studies for your review:Sparks et al, Diabetes, 52(2002): Fat in diet down regulates the genes that produce mitochondria.”

    I’ll look at this but the fact is that high fat diets proliferate mitochondria.

    “Petersen et al, NEJM, 350(2004): Fat in diet increases insulin resistance within cells. Goff et al, European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 59(2005): Vegan diet shows reduced intracellular fat and decreased insulin resistance. Anderson, JW & Ward, KD, High-carbohydrate, high-fiber diets for insulin-treated men with diabetes mellitus, Am J Clin Nutr, 32,Nov 1979, p 2312-2321. I also would invite you to view my presentation to the San Francisco Vegetarian Society at http://www.archive.org/details/sfvs_2010_11_13_Don_Forrester.

    I’ll look these over but again whenever you take someone off of a SAD diet and their health improves, you must take into account this as a confounding variable. If I quit smoking and start chewing gum and my lungs improve, it isn’t the gum that is making my lungs healthier. Because you are biased in favor of a vegan diet, you view the results of these studies with rose colored glasses. We need to look at the studies that compare high fat, low carb to low fat high carb and see what fares better for diabetics. At this time the data suggest that the “winner” is high fat, low carb.

    “I would be interested in your comments and would be glad to furnish references. My final comment is that the science is constantly changing so it is important to keep up… you never no when you will reach the “tipping point” to a new belief system.”

    This is true.

    “I doubt if I met your challenge but hopefully you found some of my comments and information interesting. Best wishes for continuing health.”

    Well the challenge was to provide a study that indicates that a low fat, high starch diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet for the treatment of diabetes. This challenge has yet to be met by you, Dr. Greger, Dr. McDougall or anyone. Happy holidays!

    • Toxins

      Your forgetting that your diet needs to supplement fiber, potassium, vitamin e and vitamin c. This is according to Dr. Atkins. Vitamin b12 is not found in abundance as it was in the past, as Dr. Greger explains, it used to be in the water supply and even on vegetation. Its also interesting to me that you continually claim that carbohydrates cause diabetes when high complex carbohydrate, whole plant food diets successfully reverse diabetes. You can’t keep ignoring this fact.

      • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

        “Your forgetting that your diet needs to supplement fiber, potassium, vitamin e and vitamin c.”

        No it doesn’t as I eat salads, seasonal fruits, liver , eggs and enjoy the sunshine daily. I need no supplements at all in fact. And there is no human need for fiber BTW. Show me the evidence.

        “This is according to Dr. Atkins.”

        Any supplementation is due to the induction phase where you lose a lot of water due to the non-need to store intramuscular glucose. And some low carb docs suggest that supplementation MAY be necessary if you are not eating organ meats, something we all should do.

        “Vitamin b12 is not found in abundance as it was in the past, as Dr. Greger explains, it used to be in the water supply and even on vegetation.”

        You get plenty of B vitamins from meat today especially if you eat grass fed, free ranging meats. Dr. Greger is apparently misinformed or purposefully misinforms. If the latter it is to keep his vegan agenda alive.

        “Its also interesting to me that you continually claim that carbohydrates cause diabetes when high complex carbohydrate, whole plant food diets successfully reverse diabetes. You can’t keep ignoring this fact.”

        Strawman. I never said that carbs cause diabetes. Chronically high levels of blood gluose can lead to insulin resistance and thus to type II diabetes. You really have a hard time reading and comprehending what people say.

        And STILL none of you can produce a single study showing that a low fat, high starch/carb ad libitum diet is a superior dietary approach to treating diabetes than a high fat, low carb diets. What’s the hold up? What’s the trouble? Do you mean to tell me there are none? If there were you’d have shut me up with a half dozen by now.

        All you do is shift your goal posts, toss out strawman, ad hominem arguments and fail to put up a shred of hard evidence that meat is unhealthy or that a low fat, high carb diet is superior to high fat low carb.

        I’m waiting…

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    One more thing – you state that Dr. Barnard’s study showed that a “vegan” diet was superior to a ADA diet for diabetes treatment. This indicates that research matters to you – and it should.

    I provided research that indicated that the high fat, low carb diet was thus far the best diet for treating diabetes but you dismiss these as ALL being flawed without providing any explanation as to how the are flawed.

    This strongly indicates your bias and, in my opinion, robs your patients of the best treatment for their condition. And isn’t this what matters most of all?

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    And yet another thing Dr. Jon – how do you reconcile our absolute requirement for B12, not in plant foods, with your “belief” we’re herbivores?

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    I looked at Barnard’s data – the HbA1c is, while better, is still pitiful. High fat, low carb diets do a much better job of normalizing A1c.

  • http://www.seriousstrength.com Fredrick Hahn

    And I’m sure you must know the recent work done by geneticist Dr. Cynthia Kenyon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Kenyon

    It is very fascinating work.

    I await the data which indicates that a low fat, high starch, ad libitum diet is superior to high fat, low starch/carb diets for the treatment of diabetes.

    Anyone?

    • Ggena

       Why this choice of low fat, high starch, or high fat, low starch??  How about low fat, low starch, and other choices.  Protein, green leafy vegs, some root veggies,  and  fruits that aren’t the sweetest   I don’t understand why this choice, when you have other choices.  Fiber is very important for diabetes, and exercise is, too.  If obese, lose the weight, if possible.  Certain new diabetic drugs seem to increase weight, stimulate the appetite.  I don’t think that’s effective or good, though they are supposed to cause less damage to organs. 

  • michaelresanders

    In the Paleo era, women raised plants using human and animal feces as fertilizers (in India we find the same today). The B-12 was in the feces and in the dirt, water, etc. So the human body developed based on getting B-12 from external sources such as the dirt on the plants eaten, etc. There was no need to eat animals to get B-12 back then or even today as long as dirty plants were/are eaten. Since we wash our plants today and no longer for the most part use animal based fertilizers we no longer get the B-12 the way we used to anciently; hence, we either eat a little animal meat from an animal that got its B-12 from the plant eating animals (with the dirt), or as Apes do we eat our own feces, or we take a supplement. The entire argument based on B-12 is fallacious.

    • Paleo Huntress

      In the paleo era, plants were not “raised”. Paleolithic people ate wild plants. Go out into a meadow some time and see if you can find any “dirt” on plants after it rains. Nature is very good at mulching the soil. Last year’s debris covers it completely and prevents dirt from splashing up onto leaves and fruits.

      Paleo man got his B12 from animal foods.

  • Turing

    It’s interesting that in the the last study cited if you look at Table 3 you’ll see the average BMI was still 32.3 after 74 weeks of being on a vegan diet. This was a little better than the group on the convention but not by much and it’s still far from below what’s considered a healthy BMI of 25 or less.

  • Michael Greger M.D.

    For some context, please also check out my associated blog post Watermelon for Erectile Dysfunction!

  • Diana Sawers

    I eat a 75% raw food diet. Fruit for breakfast, a large salad for lunch and a salad plus a cooked meal in the evening. However, I have a sweet tooth and love coffee which I try to limit to three days a week (not more than 2 cups a day). I cannot drink coffee without warm milk and sugar. I also love chocolate and the occasional cake (every Thursday at my bridge afternoon tea). What sweeteners do you recommend to replace sugar?? I use honey in salad dressing and wherever else I can. I am not overweight but lately my blood sugar seems to be a bit out of kilter. I also feel tired a lot of the time and do not sleep well. I’m soon to be 64. I exercise every morning and try to walk at least 4 times a week for half an hour. Any suggestions for balancing blood sugar?

  • Marita Bonillo-Farias

    Any evidence of type 1 diabetic’s disease being better controlled on a vegan diet?

    • fineartmarcella

      I’m not the Dr Greger staff, but I have been a veggie for 26 yrs, nurse for 36
      yrs, and soon to be a Family Nurse Practitioner. I was also once upon a time PREdiabetic and surrounded by diabetes on both sides of my immediate family. Plantbased eating has saved my life in many ways. But concerning your questions, may I add an answer. If you are venturing
      into the vegan plant-based way of eating to become a healthy and ‘younger’ person, might I suggest making a bit
      more effort and go ‘raw’ vegan for 6 months and see how your pancreas
      does. If you are going to muster all of your committed energy to one diet lifestyle change, I suggest do the best one.

      Supposedly the beta cells that make insulin are ‘dead’ when a person is a Diabetic
      type 1, BUT what if they are just down by not out? Afterall, the body is designed
      to heal itself if given the right nutrients. Could that happen to you? I don’t know, but I am of a science mind and I love to experiment. What if it worked for you but you never tried? Your life would change, unless you never tried….You may be surprised how
      much other parts of your body improve on a Raw Vegan diet without your expecting it.. I still have improvements from old aches and pains even at 56 yrs old.

      The truth is Cooking
      food degrades micro-nutrients in it, we need those micro-nutrients to
      be healthy and repair our zillions of cells. We all know that but ignore it or try our best to disprove it…. I believe God built us as perfect bodies to live in a healthy way, I don’t thinking blackened pork was His plan for us or His pig, I like to use the analogy
      ‘God put fresh raw fruits and vegetable available for us to eat, he has
      fresh apples hanging from the trees, not cooked ones :), ready for our opposable thumb hand to easily snatch off the branch, not a mushing spoiling cooked apple, haha. If you choose to take the step, you are free to correspond with me by email or message me with questions on going raw, its a bit of a journey
      in the beginning, but it gets real easy when you start feeling well
      again…

  • Paleo Huntress

    According to the ADA, there is no “ADA Diet”.

    “What is the “ADA Diet”?

    Actually, there’s no such thing. What we do promote are some general guidelines. For more than 15 years now, ADA has recognized that people with diabetes should eat in a way that helps them reach their blood glucose, cholesterol, blood pressure, and weight goals. For some, this means a relatively higher-carbohydrate diet, and for others, the diet may be lower in carbohydrate. We don’t recommend specific target numbers when it comes to carbohydrates, protein, and total fat.”

  • browser1

    I know many people who are vegetarians but are diabetic. having vegetarian food only doesn’t ensure free from diabeties.

  • http://www.naturallifeenergy.com/ Aqiyl Aniys

    That is amazing how a vegetarian or vegan diet affects insulin levels!

  • Judylopat

    I’ve become a vegan and have seen remarkable improvement in my diabetes. I was diagnosed 2 years ago with type 2 then type 1. It was after seeing the endocrynologist that the type 1 was discovered and placement on two insulins was recommended. I’m 59y.o. I was able to completely eliminate my second insulin Humalog once I began the vegan diet. Question. I have diabetes related Retinopathy and need to take eye injections of Lucentis to keep from becoming legally blind. I find that whenever I eat fats (the good ones such as ground flax or tahini even in tbl amounts) my vision becomes worse. I’m aware that people need fats but it seems that when I have no fats at all the inflamation in my retinas become worse. Could you recommend something?

  • Arun Mukherjee

    Dr. Greger: I have been looking for information on whether a Type 2 diabetic could eat dates and raisins, in moderation.

    • Thea

      Arun: I am a big fan of the book, “Dr. Neal Barnard’s Program For Reversing Diabetes: The scientifically proven system for reversing diabetes without drugs.” with quote “3 times more effective than other diet plans”.

      I do not believe that Dr. Barnard directly addresses dried fruits in the text portion of the book, but I took a look at the recipes at the back of the book after I saw your question. Here is the title of one of the desserts in the back of the book: “Orange-Applesauce Date Cake” There is 1 cup of chopped dates in the cake.

      One thing to keep in mind is that the recipe recommendations in the book go together. What I mean is that the recipes recommendations are in the context of a whole plant food based diet that is truly low in fat. I don’t know how good it would be for a person with type 2 diabeties to have dates or raisins in their diet if they were also eating meat, dairy, eggs, oils or lots of say avacado and coconut.

      I’m not a doctor. Just thought you might find this helpful. Good luck.

      • Arun Mukherjee

        That is very helpful Thea. I, too, am a big fan of Dr. Barnard’s book and am following his regimen of plant-based diet faithfully. I don’t know how I missed this recipe! Going to look for it. Thank you so much!