How to Treat Diabetes

First, let’s stick to science as our guide, not popular opinion. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that eating meat is bad for you. The entire idea is ridiculous. Humans have been eating animal matter for as long as they have been human.

However, if you have access to such controlled studies, studies I am unaware of, could you please place links to them here. It would be greatly appreciated.

Unfortunately, the link you posted above does not provide any scientific evidence that meat is unhealthy. It is a link to a page with numerous videos many of which have nothing to do with diet or meat in particular. Could you narrow your suggestions?

As for starch, starch raises blood glucose. The last thing that a diabetic wants is to raise her blood sugar levels. A starch based diet would be a completely irresponsible diet to place a diabetic on.

The only way you could control diabetes (to a point) on a starch based diet is if the total amount and type of carbohydrate was considerably less than what the person was eating before. But then it’s not the starch based diet that is helping – it’s the decrease in total carbohydrate intake that is doing the trick.

Research concludes over and over again that a low starch/carbohydrate diet is the best dietary approach for diabetics.

http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/DietaryGuidelines/2010/Meeting2/CommentAttachments/Feinman-Volek2009-170.pdf

Meat is not harmful and does not raise blood glucose significantly. Only carbohydrates can do that. and diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerance.

Amber –

What your saying, with all due respect, doesn’t make sense. Diabetes isn’t a condition of lack of exercise, it a condition of carbohydrate intolerance.

You don’t control lung disease by continuing to smoke and jog 40 miles a week. You quit smoking.

Increasing physical activity just burns up the sugar that you shouldn’t have taken in in the first place. But too much exercise is also not a good thing. You’re young. Obese 60 year olds are not going to start running 5K’s.

Paleolithic man was only active when he needed to be. What paleo-man didn’t eat was ANY grain based foods and all his carbs came from seasonal fruits and vegetables. Most of paelo-man’s diet was animal based. That is a fact.

I don’t know what looking like grok means. If it means you look fit, this may have everything to do with your genetics. I have many friends who look “grok” and never exercise. For 50 I’m pretty grok and rarely eat anything other than animal matter and some plants. I almost never eat grain and never eat processed food.

As I said, the overwhelming majority of the evidence indicates that a low carb diet is the go-to diet for a diabetic. Exercise, specifically resistance training, is a wonderful adjunct.

“There are plenty of strong and lean herbivores I could point to in the animal kingdom as some sort of proof that human should eat plant based diets, but that would be ridiculous, because humans aren’t herbivores.”

***Right, so I’m curious as to why you bring that up?

“Sure, maybe bears would be a better comparison, if humans hibernated half the year and spent the other half gaining hundreds of pounds in preparation for 6 months of fasting. Trying to justify lifestyle choices by comparing humans to other species is a slippery slope that I certainly wouldn’t want to find myself on.”

****We are both mammals and have nearly identical digestive systems. That is the point.

“I know lots of people who spend 22 hours a day not moving. 8 hours sleeping, 8 hours sitting at a desk, 2 hours sitting in a car, 1 hour sitting at a dining table, 2-3 hours sitting watching TV or blogging or playing video games, you get the idea. Mario Brothers was released in 1983, and the early 80′s was when obesity rates began their steep incline.”

****Chess has been around a lot longer than Mario Brothers and other video games and you don’t see anyone blaming obesity on chess, or checkers, or model building, or reading, or piano lessons, or meditation, or…

“You can blame carbs all you want, but people were eating carbs before 1983 and not getting fat and diabetic.”

Yes indeed they were getting fat. William Banting springs to mind. John Harvey Kellogg and others as well. But back then, they also did not have fear of fat that we do now and fat greatly slows the digestive process. And the worst offenders are the refined carbs of course not sweet potatoes or vegetables.

“Heck, my dad grew up eating wonder bread, margarine and white sugar sandwiches and didn’t get fat.”

****Yeah, well, mine did. And so did virtually every person in my family. Some people smoke till their 90 and suffer little to no ill effects. It’s still bad for them.

“I see you’re one of those Body by Science types. That stuff works for most people just long enough for them to give a whole bunch of their money to the person selling it. Then it stops working (like most magic pills do), and the person is left wondering what they are doing wrong since it seems to be working so well for the person they just gave their money to. Eventually they come to me, and I teach them how to exercise adequately and eat within their energy requirements. You know, sciency stuff.”

Be more specific. What “stops?” Body by Science, like my book The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution are methods of resistance training that increase lean mass and help to reduce fat mass as well as produce a myriad of other health benefits that is well established by “sciency stuff.” Stuff you appear to be completely unaware of it seems.

http://slowburn.typepad.com/my_weblog/files/phillips_2007.pdf

When they come to you and start engaging in dangerous and forceful exercise practices like cross fit, they often get hurt and thus grow weaker.

“Meh, LDL particle breakdown. My HDL is higher than my LDL, and my triglycerides are under 30, so even though I don’t know the particle breakdown, I have a pretty good idea it’s nice and pretty”

My HDL is 90 and all my LDL are the large buoyant type. Tri’s are 44. So there! ;)

Amber said: And there it is. The magic pill. ‘Yes, you too can sit on your ass and eat bacon and still be healthy and lean, all you need to do is buy my book to find out how.’”

Strawman. You clearly have never gone through a high intensity workout in your life. And, yes, you can sit on your ass almost all day, eat lots of fat, lifts weights for about 15 minutes a week and be lean, powerful and healthy. Like me.

“There is so much ‘neener neener’ and ‘I know you are but what am I’ going on in your posts that it’s time for me to bow out.”

That’s how your taking it because that is what you are doing Amber.

“I’ve made my point, better than you, and I’m no Denise Minger.”

Indeed you are not.

“My lipids are better than yours (last I checked, tri’s under 30 is better than 44,”

Better? Really? And that sounds like a “nyah, nyah” to me!

“and a higher HDL than LDL number produces a ratio that would make a caveman cry),”

My HDL is higher than yours however! Nyah, nyah!

“…and I eat a starch based, high carb diet. So the argument (that I wager you make in your book) that starch and carbs cause low HDL and high triglycerides just doesn’t hold water.”

If you are going to eat as you do, you damn well better be exercising like a fiend. Something you will not be able to continue as you age. Not to mention that by performing all the exercise you are, you are accelerating your aging process. Can you say excess cortisol? How old are you? Judging from your FB photos you look to be 40 or so. You won’t be able to keep up your activity level as it is for much longer.

“The body of scientific data supporting exercise as the optimal means of metabolic regulation is vast.”

Not exercise, resistance training.

“The science is on my side, and I’m not trying to sell a magic pill.”

That’s too bad. When magic pills work, people should have access to them. Like quinine for malaria.

“Plants DO NOT grow cancer cells.”

Plants convert to glucose and glucose feeds cancer.

“Cancer cell proliferation is easily stopped by many plants.”

Show me the research that supports this statement.

I posted this for Jeff Novick:

“Jeff,

Carbohydrate is the macronutrient that raises blood glucose levels to the greatest extent. Excessive circulating levels of blood glucose is the diabetics enemy. It is why they must use glucometers.

Since diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerance, why does Dr. McDougall suggest that diabetics eat mostly carbohydrate?

And can you list a few citaitons here for all of us which indicate that a high starch/carb, low fat/meat diet is superior to a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes?

Thank you.”

We’ll see if he responds.

Well Toxins, I told you nobody would be able to produce a single paper showing that a high carb, low fat diet was superior to a low carb, high fat diet for treating diabetes.

Dr. McDougall didn’t even answer. Telling indeed.

What I posted had research behind it. where’s the research to support this ridiculous article?

Dr. Greger you mean. I’ve read the book. It’s garbage. Again, no scientific research to support his claims.

“If you paid any attention to what he was saying, you would know he has the citations go quickly because he explicitly states that you can either pause the video and read them or you can let the video flow for a general understanding.”

Go to the first video and try to pause on the references. You can’t.

“I never said that people who don’t have credentials should not be discussing nutrition, this is what YOU implied! Stop putting words in my mouth!”

You said:

“You have no credentials yourself to advocate such a diet, stop being hypocritical.”

Perhaps I misunderstood you. The point is he is wrong for trying to suggest that since Dr. Cordain doesn’t have the credentials, what he is saying is not valid. That is an ad hominem argument.

What about my challenge?

“Hi Frederick, I will come at your challenge from a different perspective. How we come to our beliefs and practices is complex. The most cited reference is Kuhn’s Structure of the Revolution where he talks about scientific studies gradually accumulating until there is a “paradigm shift” to a new model. Having practiced adult medicine for over 30 years with the last 5 focusing on adding nutrition and exercise prescriptions to my practice and spending the last 4 years giving educational talks to physicians and lay persons I have come to the belief that a properly done whole foods plant based diet with supplemental B12 is the best diet to avoid many of the chronic diseases afflicting us.”

Hi Dr. Dons –

As I mentioned earlier and in several posts here and at Dr. McDougall’s site (to which I received no response), when you take a person off of a typical Western diet and place them on a vegan diet, their health will improve. But their health does NOT improve BECAUSE of the plants, it improves mainly because you have removed the carcinogens and junk foods which damage their health.

If you fasted the typical American for three days giving them plenty of fresh water, their health would also improve. But this does not mean no food is better than some food. So I have no doubt that a vegan diet is, in the short term *better* than a Western fake food diet. But I must point out that having to give your patients B supplements is a tell tale sign of a diet deficient in meats. A healthful diet should require no supplements.

“Beyond my professional experience I have also had the personal experience of going from SAD to Vegetarian to now 5+ years plant based. All the studies that I have seen seem to support my beliefs and the ones that I have reviewed that support meat eating are flawed or narrowly focused.”

Can you be more specific? Flawed how?

And how do you explain cultures who eat a lot of meat (like the Inuit) who experience extremely good health? How do you explain my family and I and the many who eat as we do who enjoy stellar health?

“When you introduce change to a complex system you need to measure all outputs otherwise you run the risk of helping one measure and harming others. In complex systems you get the best results by not violating system design. We are designed as herbivores.”

This is entirely untrue. We are clearly omnivorous. Stop supplementing your patients with B vitamins and see what happens to them.

“The fact that we can function as omnivores doesn’t change our design.”

No it dictates our design.

“I will comment on diabetes since alot of your posts seem to rest on the misconception that the cause of diabetes is carbohydrates.”

That is a strawman argument. I never once said that. My point and argument is that if you are a diabetic, the go to diest should be low carbohydrate, high fat not low fat high carbohydrate since diabetes is a condition of carbohydrate intolerence. Carbohydrates do not cause type II diabetes. No one ever developed type II diabetes by eating mainly animal matter and some plant matter.

“It is true that type 2 diabetes is a glucose processing problem but the “upstream” cause is the fats in the diet( both animal and plant fats).”

Please provide the evidence of this and then explain why a high fat, low carb diet always reverses type II diabetes. If what you say is true, a high fat diet would always worsen the condition. It never does.

“They interfere with insulin and turn of the genes that run the mitochondria that burn glucose.”

This is no true.

“This is supported by the fact that Dr. Barnard’s study showed that a low fat plant based diet was superior to the ADA diet in controlling HgbA1C and reducing medications.”

Again, the ADA diet allows for too much total refined carbohydrates which cause quickly elevated blood glucose levels. Fat does not affect blood glucose at all. And you’re forgetting that a high fat, low carb diets always defeats a low fat, vegan diet for blood glucose control. Again I ask you or anyone to produce a single study that indicates that a low fat, high carb/starch diet is superior for controlling diabetes when compared to a high fat, low carb diet. Just one please.

“He doesn’t cite the number of diabetics who were cured(off medication with normal glucoses). In the last two years of my practice using Dr. Barnard’s approach I had 15 diabetic patients “cure” themselves.”

If they were eating a SAD diet before, I have no doubt this is true. This still does not indicate that it is the best approach which is what I am arguing.

“More recently I had the opportunity to take care of a patient at the McDougall clinic who came in on two hypoglycemic agents with a fasting blood sugar of 159. I took him off his meds and he went on an 8 day low fat starch based diet. At the end of 8 days his sugar was 129.”

Had you put him on a high fat, no starch diet his blood sugars would have been much better than that. Again, this is my entire point. You’re a doctor – it is your responsibility to do what IS best for the patient not what you believe is best.

“(He also was taken off his BP meds and left with a lower BP than when he came into the program, he also stopped his TUMS as his reflux was gone).”

This is due to the cessation of his high refined carb diet.

“He continued the diet on return to home and 4 months later his sugar was 100. Six months later he stopped home testing as his fasting sugars were in the low 80′s. As of last month his weight is down 70#. He is off all medications including his statin for cholesterol. I know that individual antedotal stories don’t “prove” anything but it is experiences like this that cement my beliefs.”

Again, a high fat, low starch diet would have seen these same benefits and even better much sooner.

“I provide four studies for your review:Sparks et al, Diabetes, 52(2002): Fat in diet down regulates the genes that produce mitochondria.”

I’ll look at this but the fact is that high fat diets proliferate mitochondria.

“Petersen et al, NEJM, 350(2004): Fat in diet increases insulin resistance within cells. Goff et al, European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 59(2005): Vegan diet shows reduced intracellular fat and decreased insulin resistance. Anderson, JW & Ward, KD, High-carbohydrate, high-fiber diets for insulin-treated men with diabetes mellitus, Am J Clin Nutr, 32,Nov 1979, p 2312-2321. I also would invite you to view my presentation to the San Francisco Vegetarian Society at http://www.archive.org/details/sfvs_2010_11_13_Don_Forrester.

I’ll look these over but again whenever you take someone off of a SAD diet and their health improves, you must take into account this as a confounding variable. If I quit smoking and start chewing gum and my lungs improve, it isn’t the gum that is making my lungs healthier. Because you are biased in favor of a vegan diet, you view the results of these studies with rose colored glasses. We need to look at the studies that compare high fat, low carb to low fat high carb and see what fares better for diabetics. At this time the data suggest that the “winner” is high fat, low carb.

“I would be interested in your comments and would be glad to furnish references. My final comment is that the science is constantly changing so it is important to keep up… you never no when you will reach the “tipping point” to a new belief system.”

This is true.

“I doubt if I met your challenge but hopefully you found some of my comments and information interesting. Best wishes for continuing health.”

Well the challenge was to provide a study that indicates that a low fat, high starch diet is superior to a high fat, low carb diet for the treatment of diabetes. This challenge has yet to be met by you, Dr. Greger, Dr. McDougall or anyone. Happy holidays!

And yet another thing Dr. Jon – how do you reconcile our absolute requirement for B12, not in plant foods, with your “belief” we’re herbivores?

And I’m sure you must know the recent work done by geneticist Dr. Cynthia Kenyon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Kenyon

It is very fascinating work.

I await the data which indicates that a low fat, high starch, ad libitum diet is superior to high fat, low starch/carb diets for the treatment of diabetes.

Anyone?