Why is Nutrition So Commercialized?

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Why There Is so Much Commercial Corruption in Nutrition

The prevalence of chronic diseases such as diabetes has skyrocketed, as has the number of articles published about diabetes in medical journals. “Why does our wealth of academic knowledge not translate more directly to improving the human condition?” Perhaps our over-attachment to the reductionistic mindset that proved so successful with acute deficiency diseases may actually represent an obstacle to success battling chronic disease.

These days, health seems to have been reduced to a highly commercialized commodity, in which we’re marketed all sorts of high-cost, high-tech tests and treatments of dubious value with substantial risks attached. “This is worrisome because most of the things that make us healthy and keep us healthy are cheap and largely available without professional help or commercial prodding.” This isn’t to say modern medicine can’t work miracles, but what about the big picture? That is, what about the 80 percent of death and disability caused by preventable diet-related diseases?

What about the field of nutrition? In my video Why Is Nutrition So Commercialized?, I discuss how it’s become about profits and products, and extracting nutrients from whole foods so they can be repackaged and marketed. But food is best eaten whole. Eat the broccoli and the blueberries, not some broccoberry supplement. But the reason there aren’t more studies on whole foods is fairly obvious: You can’t patent them. Why should a company spend a lot of money, time, and effort to convince you to buy broccoli when any other company can sell it to you? That’s why the field of nutrition can be more about marketing profitable products than educating people about the fundamentals of health and wellness. For example, the benefits of whole grains over refined grains is commonly attributed to the fiber, which enables the food industry to whip out fiber-fortified Froot Loops and make you feel all better.

Let’s consider this ingenious study: Burkitt and colleagues thought the extraordinarily low rates of killer chronic diseases in sub-Saharan Africa were due to all the whole, plant foods they were eating. This turned into the fiber hypothesis, the reductionistic thought that fiber must be the magic bullet active ingredient. What happens if we put it to the test? What if we compared two groups of older women, both getting around six grams of grain fiber a day, but one group mostly from whole grains and the other mostly from refined grains? Who do you think lived longer? If it was just the fiber, there shouldn’t be much difference because both groups ate about the same amount. In fact, the whole grain group lived longer and with a significantly lower mortality rate, which implies that it may be all the other wonderful things in whole plant foods “linked to fiber [that] may confer important health benefits above and beyond effects of the fiber itself.” That’s why fiber supplements wouldn’t be expected to offer the same benefit.

Indeed, food, not nutrients, is the fundamental unit in nutrition.

As Dr. David Katz has pointed out, “Our culture doesn’t want to hear that the active ingredient in broccoli is broccoli—it wants to know what supplement it can take.”

This is part of my extended series on the reductionist trap, which includes:

The Five to One Fiber Rule still holds, though, since it’s an indication of how heavily processed a product is.

There are two sides to the intellectual property argument when it comes to food. I explore both in Plants as Intellectual Property: Patently Wrong?.

And, of course, this is why I always recommend Taking Personal Responsibility for Your Health.

In health,
Michael Greger, M.D.

PS: If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my free videos here and watch my live, year-in-review presentations:


Michael Greger M.D., FACLM

Michael Greger, M.D. FACLM, is a physician, New York Times bestselling author, and internationally recognized professional speaker on a number of important public health issues. Dr. Greger has lectured at the Conference on World Affairs, the National Institutes of Health, and the International Bird Flu Summit, testified before Congress, appeared on The Dr. Oz Show and The Colbert Report, and was invited as an expert witness in defense of Oprah Winfrey at the infamous "meat defamation" trial.

186 responses to “Why There Is so Much Commercial Corruption in Nutrition

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  1. It is corrupt beyond just the lack of funding for food studies and beyond the faux studies by the food and supplement studies.

    Yesterday, when I was listening to Brenda Davis, she spoke about a saturated fat study where they submitted the real data to a journal and the journal rejected the study because it wasn’t saying something they considered worth hearing and the study was re-worked with certain parts removed and the final result was to have the press proclaiming that saturated fat isn’t that bad.

    The journal wouldn’t publish the results unless they were spun into a more entertaining version.


    I was watching Brenda’s work with Diabetes and saving the Marshall Islands was so much more entertaining than watching the Diet Wars.

    Seems like there is ENDLESS opportunity to entertain us by saving lives.

    1. Deb, thank you for posting the Brenda Davis presentation. 63% of American calories come from processed foods, and 25% from animal products?
      No wonder so many people are sick!
      Her talk is inspirational, but I do find that many people are -not- willing to change their lifestyle. They just want me to recommend supplements. And, of course, their illness is all ‘genetic’.

      1. Yes, it was quite an inspirational talk.

        Most of the information has been covered here, but it is nice to review it in a longer format and it became so inspirational when she added in her own work.

      1. Marilyn,

        Yes, it is people thinking aloud, but the question comes from things like people having their triglycerides go up on Dr. Ornish’s diet while still having their heart disease risks go down.

        I am looking at it because I have seen a lot of vegans who are not eating processed foods test higher for triglycerides.

        I guess I am looking for the answer to the questions, which are also running through that person’s mind.

    1. I think it is still moot whether high triglycerides are a causal factor in chronic disease or simply a marker for certain pathological states or even just a marker for certain dietary patterns = some of which patterns may be pathological and some of which may not. Certainly in coronary heart disease mortality, high triglycerides in and of themselves do not appear to be associated with mortality in this 1993 study::

      ‘Overall, the plasma triglyceride level showed no independent association with coronary mortality. However, in subgroups of subjects with lower HDL and LDL cholesterol levels and in younger subjects, defined a priori, an association between the triglyceride level and coronary mortality was observed, although this association was small and was not statistically significant after an adjustment for the plasma glucose level.’

      A more recent review of (Mendelian) analyses also suggests that there is no clear association between high triglycerides in general and risk …… although some particular triglycerides may be a causal factor:

      ‘For triglycerides, the story is less clear due to a lack of genetic variants associated with triglycerides that do not also associate with LDL-c and/or HDL-c. A methodological development to address this is multivariable Mendelian randomization, in which the causal effects of multiple risk factors can be estimated simultaneously [35]. This requires genetic variants to be associated with one or more of the risk factors, but not associated with other risk factors that may represent confounders of any risk factor–outcome association or alternative causal pathways to the outcome that are not via one of the target risk factors. Multivariable MR analyses have suggested a deleterious causal effect of increased triglycerides on CHD risk [36, 37]. However, there is little consistency in the associations of individual triglyceride-related variants with CHD risk [38], with some variants being associated with CHD risk [39, 40], and others showing no clear association. This may reflect genuine heterogeneity amongst different triglycerides.’

      So McCarty’s article in Medical Hypotheses may not be unreasonable. However, the authors of this Mendelian analysis review “suggest a causal role of triglyceride-rich lipoproteins in the development of CAD.” Nevertheless, the same review noted that “Several recent randomized controlled trials have tested whether the lowering of plasma triglycerides with fish oils29 or with fibrates30-32 will decrease risk for CAD and in many cases, treatment did not reduce risk29,31,32”

      In my view, if a person’s TC, LDL and other biomarkers are OK, and one is eating a healthy diet and exercising etc, then high triglycerides on their own probably aren’t a concern. But then I do enjoy eating fruit.

  2. You are right. Depressingly. Greed runs American culture. And quick fix mindset prodded on by marketers and media and lack of will. Take a pill, have the gastric bypass, sit and mindlessly watch the tube/smartphone instead of taking a walk. Have it all, do it all and expect healthcare to fix the consequences. So healthcare jumps in and takes its share of the profits. I am plant based for years, exercise daily, am tremendously healthy and feel like I’m banging my head against an entire cultural wall when I speak to folks about caring more about what they eat and do. Thank you for your work and continued efforts.

  3. The part I loved about the study was that in the postmenopausal women (which I am) the women were not perfectly only eating whole grain fiber. Both groups had some refined grains and some whole grains. That’s me.

    women who consumed on average 1.9 g refined grain fiber/2,000 kcal and 4.7 g whole grain fiber/2,000 kcal had a 17% lower mortality rate (RR=0.83, 95% CI=0.73-0.94) than women who consumed predominantly refined grain fiber: 4.5 g/2,000 kcal, but only 1.3 g whole grain fiber/2,000 kcal.

    I am not sure how many refined grains are in my Sweet Earth The Curry Tiger burritos and Amy’s NonDairy Burritos, but those are still hard for me to get rid of.

  4. I like the comment “our over-attachment to the reductionistic mindset.”

    Even on this site, I read comments about food ingredients, instead of whole foods Which to my mind indicates that this reductionist mindset is deeply entrenched.

    And since I think that nutrition science is still very inexact, I don’t think it’s possible to deduce the “best diet” for each person individually, except in very broad brush strokes. Plant based whole food; veggies and fruits, beans and whole grains, nuts and seeds, (eaten in decreasing amounts in the order listed). Spices and water. Eat a variety of foods. And enjoy.

    That said, I think that we now know generally a lot about how to prevent a lot of disease and disability, about 80% of it. But why is that message not getting through to the general public? I have been told that my way of eating is “extreme” and “restricted.” To me, it’s very liberating — hopefully, from the 80% of disease and disability and premature death.

    Meanwhile, an article in today’s New York Times: “10 Ways to Lower the Cancer Risk of Grilling
    If you plan to grill often experts suggest taking some small steps to make a big difference in lowering your exposure to compounds that are tied to cancer.” (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/well/eat/10-ways-to-lower-the-cancer-risk-of-grilling.html) I kid you not. it’s like saying: Please tell me how to smoke while lowering the risks of dying from lung cancer. To me, it’s incredible.

    1. Dr J.,

      I agree that I like the sentence about the reductionist mindset.

      I will though say that when you read the comments about “ingredients” versus “whole foods” on this site, it is usually a reality that people are eating bread or drinking plant milk or something else like Mary’s Gone Crackers and we are trying to make sure there is no oil or sodium or sugar added to the things we buy. Yes, we could make our own plant milk, but you notice that the minute it is “milk” it is processed and most of us are not perfect at it. Hummus = processed. Milk = processed. Tomato sauce and paste = processed. etc. So some of us aren’t perfect at doing every single thing whole. Some people drink smoothies or juices. Some people eat soups. Those of us who do these things want to know what is in there.

      I don’t see that as the same process as what the drug and supplement companies do.

      Also, there are things like sulforaphane which accomplishes so much for things like enzymes to clean the lungs and heat shock proteins for synapses in the brain. If I didn’t know what it did, I just plain never liked any cruciferous. I also hated blueberries and still don’t like them.

      It is the little details of what the lutein or nitric oxide or sulforaphane actually does, which gets me to eat things I don’t like. I think some of the people saying things like you are saying maybe just would eat things like berries and cruciferous and leafy greens. I never would have eaten any of those things without the studies and neither do any of the people around me and the only way I will change that will be if I can find the right studies for the right people because they are all just like me.

        1. Yeah, he does a good job.

          I still do like to glop my soup and have it more creamy and that is processing it.

          Comfort food is almost always gloppy and gloppy is almost always processed.

          I do eat tomatoes for instance. Raw every single day for the past 3 months, but boy, processing them in my Vitamix into a nice soup makes them comfort food.

          I eat the raw ones for health and the comfort ones because they soothe my soul.

          But I know that many of you are purists.

          1. I feel like it is still only the detailed micronutrient information which keeps me eating so many foods.

            I eat 3 tablespoons of broccoli sprouts every day and never would eat them ever if there hadn’t been studies.

            I eat beet chips. Not beets or beet juice, but it took 1-1/4 years to get me to do air dried beet chips and the beet and cacao bars. And, yes, I read the ingredients on that.

            I would never have eaten pomegranate seeds or fruit at all or so many things without all of these videos.

            I would have given up soy and did give up coffee out of peer pressure. Though the coffee was more because I couldn’t figure out what plant milk to drink. But now that I am back to drinking it, I hear how bad it is for me every single time I walk to the machine.

            Nope, there is a reason I am hanging out at Dr. Greger’s site and not at a site just telling me to eat whole foods.

            I would have just ate root vegetables and that probably would have been okay, but I never would have eaten lentils and have everybody telling me not to eat beans and not to eat nightshades and I would have just eaten lentil pasta instead of white pasta and not added in any vegetables or fruit.

            1. Oh, I just realized that lentil pasta is a processed food.

              I guess it would have been root vegetables.

              I say that as I eat my blueberries with turmeric and ginger and cardamom and cinnamon and unsweetened almond yogurt. I suddenly can’t remember if the almond yogurt is completely taking away the benefit of all of the spices and berries. So much to keep track of.

              1. Deb,

                I don’t consider whole food that you prep and cook at home to be “processed.” Sorry that didn’t come through. I make lots of soups and stews and other dishes.

                And I do use some processed foods; that’s why I generally state “minimal to no processed foods.” I make my own soy milk from soybeans and water — but it doesn’t make good yogurt (I don’t filter it), so I buy commercially prepared soy milk (made of soybeans and water, no other ingredients) to use for yogurt, since I can’t find soy yogurt without all kinds of additives. I make hummus from chickpeas I cook at home, but there are perfectly good hummuses at the store. I also use some broths, mustard, salsas, etc that I don’t make myself.

                Even rolled oats are slightly processed: they are steamed before being rolled.

                And I try to minimize added oils, sugars, and salts. Though I do use them, sparingly. For example, I make my own sourdough whole grain bread — but I add salt, because it serves several functions in baking bread. But I add less. My bread is delicious, but slightly dense (heavy crumb).

                1. Well then, we are doing a very similar process.

                  Okay, what are soybeans?

                  My mind goes to edamame and I wouldn’t know how to make my own soy milk with edamame.

                  I do like edamame both cold in salads and cooked though.

                2. I also make my own whole grain sourdough bread but I don’t add salt and it seems to be fine. Also a heavy style loaf which I learnt to make many years ago from a German friend

                  1. Betty,

                    True confession: I’ve never actually tried to make bread without salt.

                    How do you make yours? I grind my own grains just before using them; I use flour, water, starter culture (which I started almost 6 years ago), and salt. (Sometimes I add other ingredients, such as toasted seeds or dried fruits.) It’s a slow process, spread over about two days, often with a night or two in the fridge. So long slow, sometimes cold, ferments.

                    1. My bread also takes 2 day with 3 additions of flour and water 8-12 hours apart before I finally make it. I use whole grain wheat and rye. Sometimes spelt. Occasionally I grind it at the local organic co-op but mostly I buy ready ground from the bulk shop. It’s quite a wet mix that takes 2-3 hours, depending on the season, to rise. We’ve cut back on bread consumption but the dog loves a piece toasted for breakfast with peanut butter

        2. Sorry to disagree but I don’t think this is confusion. Cooking is simply one type of ‘processing’.

          ‘Food processing is the transformation of agricultural products into food, or of one form of food into other forms. Food processing includes many forms of processing foods, from grinding grain to make raw flour to home cooking to complex industrial methods used to make convenience foods.’

    2. Dr.J
      Hope you don’t mind my reaching out with an off-topic question. Since you and I have a shared history with BC I wonder if you use soy milk or any soy products. Thanks!

      1. Sorry just saw your post regarding making your own soy milk. I conclude then that soy products are safe to use following BC?

        1. Lida,

          There are several videos about soy foods and breast cancer on this site; you can search under “soy and breast cancer.”

          Here’s one example: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-soy-healthy-for-breast-cancer-survivors/

          It has my favorite quote in it:

          “Pooling all the results, soy food intake after breast cancer diagnosis was associated with reduced mortality (meaning a longer lifespan) and reduced recurrence—so, less likely the cancer comes back. Anyone who says otherwise hasn’t cracked a journal open in seven years.

          And, this improved survival was for both women with estrogen receptor negative tumors and estrogen receptor positive tumors, and for both younger women, and for older women. Pass the edamame.”

          There are several others, all worth watching.

          Hoping for your good health! And mine, too.

          1. I have abstained from soy in the past having read
            Some negative views. Perhaps there is a more enlightened view now and better scientific evidence of its value. I will definitely look at the links you mentioned. Thank you so very much!

            1. Lida,

              The negative concepts about soy are because one of the anti-soy leaders said that 90% of soy is GMO and that is not the truth. GMO makes things complicated, but it is easy to find organic soy.

              If you do start eating soy, Dr. Greger has some excellent videos. You need to know that if you ate a whole lot of servings per day, it would raise IGF-1, but that is at a lot of servings. Dr. Greger does have a video or two on how much soy.

              Also, he has videos on how processed can the soy be for your health and those categories would be tempeh, tofu, miso, edamame, are okay.

              Once you get over to the soy faux burgers and soy protein drinks, the logic becomes complicated again. (Though companies like Morning Star Farms have switched from GMO soy fake burgers to NONGMO soy fake burger patties. They are still probably filled with sodium, though I haven’t had one in a pretty long while. I do have 2 or 3 Boca Burgers per year at cookouts at my brother’s house. Theirs might not be soy, I can’t remember. I haven’t bought them in a long time because they are “cookout” food for me. I am trying to be more Whole Food Plant Based and that is a step further away and I already have the weakness of the Sweet Earth burritos, which I genuinely love.

    3. Dr J

      I have been meditating on the story of the person who started Paleo and it is ONLY because of her microanalysis of food and how it affects the mitochondria that she got out of her wheelchair.

      I look at Dr Swank and his diet stopped the progression and his diet wasn’t the Starch Solution. His emphasis was whole grains and low fat, but he allowed nuts and a few teaspoons of oil or something like that.

      Anyway, she didn’t just stop the progression of the disease. She reversed it micromanaging her vegetable intake and nutrient intake.

      The Starch Solution didn’t work optimally for MS. Not as well as what Swank was doing.

      But her doing the opposite process to Colon bested what Swank or McDougall would have given her.

      In many ways, her ending up in a wheel chair and reversing it is what needs to be analyzed for MS.

      1. There is no good evidence that either Swank’s or Wahl’s diets work for MS,

        No harm perhaps in giving them a go but nobody else has been able to replicate their results. Wahl also seems to have a conflict of interest because this whole Wahl Protocol approach appears to be a nice little income stream for her

        As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There is no extraordinary evidence in either case … it’s largely her own personal testimony in Wahl’s case and a methodologically dubious study by Swank in his case. Caveat emptor.

        1. Tom,

          I am going to say that Terry Wahls, with her 3 cups of cruciferous and her 3 cups of leafy greens and her 3 cups of deeply pigmented other fruits and vegetables and her 1 cup of fresh herbs and spices every single day accomplished what Dr. Swank, I don’t think ever did.

          She reversed her own MS.

          That is an N of 1, which is not something to dismiss. I am not sure if it can be replicated, but she did it.

          Yes, you are looking for the real studies, but I do give her credit for what she accomplished.

          I find it similar to the Alzheimer’s and turmeric testimonials.

          Even if they are a fluke, if I were a scientist, I would be moving in the direction of the remarkable fluke for a very long time.

          My dog is alive over a year after a Hemangiosarcoma diagnosis and my dog’s vet has already said, “It might just be a fluke” and this is where I understand the people like Chris Beat Cancer, because that fluke took me month after month of a whole lot of research.

          Name ANYONE else who accomplished what Dr. Wahls accomplished?

          It might be that Dr. Swank had lots of people get out of wheelchairs and it may be that lots of people just fluctuate, but, boy, she did something worth really looking into beyond a casual glance.

          I am going to also say that I will have spent 8 or 10 years by the end reversing brain problems one concept at a time and nobody is likely to give me any credit for any of that either, but if I succeed, they seriously should.

          1. Deb

            I understand that there are different types of MS, some of which are not progressive. Consider this comment on another site which suggests that experiencing remission after an MS attack is a known phenomenon so Wahl’s experience would not be unique and likely would have had nothing to do with her diet

            ‘MS is a pretty variable disease. It is even possible to only ever get one “attack” of MS, in which case they don’t actually call it MS because you need “multiple” attacks to satisfy the criteria of “Multiple Sclerosis”. However the pathology in the brain as seem on MRI is identical to MS. It is also possible to get isolated repeated “attacks” with each attack separated by variable periods of time and years between attacks is not unusual. There can also be complete remission between attacks but, more often some disability remains. There is also a steadily progressive form. It can be progressive from the start or become progressive after a period of time with recurrent attacks.’

            I am not aware that any of the studies touted by Wahl have actually been completed or had their results published. I might be wrong but the latest research update on her site dates back to 2017. We have to ask ourselves why.

            Being a cynic, I might speculate that Wahl might be convinced by the revenue stream and the internet adulation to continue with here ideas even if the evidence isn’t there.

            Either way, there really is no good evidence to support Wahl’s claims.

            Taking people at their word in alternative medicine is a risky business – especially when they make significant money from making such extraordinary claims.

          2. Deb

            You also say that you have reversed brain problems. Perhaps you have. Or perhaps time is the great healer and worked its magic in your case.

            In any event, you never had a medical diagnosis of your condition as I understand it so it’s difficult to make any real assessment of what happened.

  5. Having been a practising vegan for over six years I know how much contempt is held for vegans by Big Food. When Michelle Obama wanted improvement of the school lunch program as her FLOTUS project they shot her down so fast that the only shred of policy that survived her efforts was the institution of elementary school gardens. There is funding and institutional support for that. We are still a long way from using the produce grown in the school lunchrooms.
    A superb argument for improvement to school lunch programs can be found in Michael Moore’s documentary, “Where to Invade Next.” The European and Norwegian children were aghast at Moore’s questions about their lunch preferences.
    The silly idea that children hate vegetables is a destructive meme that originated in the spoiled-brat entertainment and advertising industries. This destructive notion is no doubt fed by industrial farming interests for whom continuing their subsidized profits of animal source food products overrules the public interest in proper nutritional practices and governmental guidelines.

    1. Frances, ‘Silly idea’, no, it’s largely true. Many American kids have never even seen most vegetables. Even the cashiers at the market ask me, “so, what is this?”
      We took several classes on a field trip. The brunch at the hotel is famous for having Incredible food variety. Most of the kids wouldn’t even try anything. They just whined that there wasn’t any ‘real food’. No pizza, no chicken nuggets, no fries. And worst of all, no soda pop!

      1. Yes, from what I see, most of the kids have never even tried the vegetables which the grocery store checker would know.

        I went to dinner at the house of a woman who has now gone pretty close to vegan, but all except for one of her kids will only eat meat.

    2. Speaking just for myself as an American, if I ate 8 fruits and vegetables a day and drank 8 glasses of water a day, I think I would be going to the bathroom at least once an hour. As it is, I eat about 5 fruits and vegetables a day and drink about 6 glasses of water, tea, and juice a day. Maybe its the American way of life which is very hectic and requires eating on the go that dictates how we eat. People worry about being productive at their jobs and don’t want their boss thinking they are slacking off by going to the bathroom constantly. They never get into a proper eating routine. That hectic life style also tends to cause stress and depression which Americans try to alleviate with comfort foods, drugs, and alcohol.

      I have eaten a fairly clean diet most of my adult life, but some people just can’t cope with todays demands. For some of them, if they are lucky to survive a health scare, that will motivate them to change. Some European cultures work a 34 hour work week where they split the work day in half before and after dinner, with two hours for dinner. They tend to live slower lives and know how to relax. Average Americans work 8, 10, 12 hour shifts with a half hour meal break, stop off for pizza on the way home and then crash in front of the TV with an alcoholic drink or soda. Meanwhile the politicians keep fighting each other about health care, but nobody ever talks about taking responsibility for their own health. Big Pharma and the food industry lobbyists don’t want them to. I cant remember the last time I saw or heard from the Surgeon General. Do we still have one, or did he quit and take a job with Big Pharma?

      1. I eat, on average 11 to 12 fruits and veg servings plus oatmeal, lentils or beans etc. Check out Dr Greger’s Daily Dozen if you are not familiar with it. I drink according to thirst. I am not in the bathroom all day… far from it.

  6. Unfortunately the book, the Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain Ph.D. is actually about the Neolithic diet so even the best intentioned hurt their own cause. The real Paleo diet does not include grain – our first and most major dietary error without which civilization could not have developed. Dairy was the next dietary blunder. I know Dr. Greger doesn’t agree with me on the grain but the reality is that when you start on a health restoration regimen, grain and dairy are excluded and for very good reasons. We cannot fully metabolize either though for different reasons.

    So if Dr. Greger wants to complain about corruption in the food industry, maybe we should start by putting the spotlight on grain as the #1 cause of gum disease. Once gum disease is in progress, so is degenerative disease in general.

    We don’t own the cecum necessary to process grain, whole or not. In fact, our cecum is a built in dead end that cannot handle the weight of grain as it extrudes into the starting end of the large intestine. Once an improperly hydrated grain bolus lands in the cecum that dead weight has to overcome gravity to climb the ascending colon when we’re standing up or sitting down which is most of the time.

    Our cecum evolved to handle leaves, stems, roots and fruits, not the mud that grain becomes on its way through the system. Science tells us the the modern human cecum is in a continual state of fermentation. It would not be without grain and dairy as dietary elements.

    Unchecked fermentation in the cecum is clearly source of degenerative disease that modern medicine and science pay little if any attention to because they all think the appendix is useless. It’s vestigial, but far from useless and the cecum gets no respect or attention either and that is a very serious oversight.

    So how does that impact corruption in the food industry?

    Simple. There is an almost complete absence of education in schools about nutrition and bodily physiology. On top of that, the gastro sector is so backwards it’s hard to believe. So without up to date information out there, industry can do and say whatever it wants.

    Pretty well all of our food is GMO.

    Why don’t we start with the cow. A man-made animal if ever there was one. Cows are auroch derivatives.

    Wheat, our first grain crop was initially not eaten as a refined flour. It was pretty rough. However the fossil record shows that gum disease and other dental wreckage didn’t start until we started grain consumption. Before grain Paleo man was bigger, stronger, healthier and and in possession of all his or her teeth without dentists. Neolithic man was a completely different story and the beginning of modern man’s descent into life-long ill health and premature decrepitude.

    So item number one on the corruption list is the entire grain industry.

    Number two is the dairy industry which came later.

    It is important to note that grain and dairy are the two main dietary causes of constipation.

    Constipation is implicated in all 55 of the most serious degenerative diseases. Sometimes causative, sometimes prolonging illness and always fatal eventually by one means or another. People think that degenerative disease happen one at a time. Nope. They happen all at once. The worst get medical attention, the rest wait their turn.

    Then there’s sugar which is the accelerant for fermentation, inflammation and infection.

    After that add meat. More fermentation and yes Dr. Greger, you agree with me: decay within the digestive tract.

    None of this is known in the food industry or by regulatory bodies within governments.

    This truth will get out. Sooner or later. When it does, the food industry will be rocked to its foundations.

    Until then, the food industry is free to commit food frauds at will.

    Going back to the cow, grain fed cows don’t manufacture Vitamin K2 an essential gateway vitamin almost totally missing from the Western Diet.

    So for the most part, almost the entire herd of cows need to be fed properly. But they won’t be because of the expense. So more fraud.

    You can go on like this for every type of food we buy from the grocery store and not a shred of truth is told about any of them. It’s open season on consumers.

    The tragedy is that consumers rely on the medical sector to keep them/us informed. But the reality is that the science being done is almost always corrupt from the get go.

    Scopus, one of the sites that publishes scientific studies has had to post a page telling scientists to stop misrepresenting their work. Food research funding is now gathering steam thanks to more frequent private funding. But that has opened the door to fake studies and guess what? It’s almost impossible to get caught!

    Fraud in the food industry starts with scientists and there is big, big money to be made in fraudulent food studies. I have no formal science education beyond high school yet I am constantly able to find errors in these studies. It’s one thing to reference a study, but it can be another to find a study where the authors are honest or well educated enough to even be doing their studies in the first place. So if the scientists don’t have a clue, where does that leave industry?

    Then there’s the constipation factor. Nearly all doctors and scientists are constipated. You know that because they all think the definition of constipation in their medical dictionary is correct. It’s not.

    So if you have the entire medical field believing foundational information and the foundational information is completely and utterly wrong, how can we vilify the food industry. What are they supposed to believe?

        1. To me, my mind goes back to the fact that the Adventists who have seriously long lives eat a lot of bread. Not white bread. Wheat bread. I haven’t found the study which said how many slices of bread. If I remember right, some of them were eating 9 slices of wheat bread per day.


          I say that because I have listened to Dr. Greger talk about Whole Grains. Even today in his Q&A.

          What I listened to yesterday, he gave a 3 part answer, but I can’t remember which health issues.

          His talk which I listened to yesterday started off recommending for people to try not to eat refined carbs. It ended with some people can’t even eat breads made from whole grains and he recommended whole grains not made into bread for them. He specifically said to NOT stop eating grains.

          From todays Q&A, he gave the answer that eating grains is one of the top 5 important foods for health.

          1. I just went through the following study and even at first glance found fundamental errors in the work.


            The study starts:

            “Current findings on associations between whole grain (WG) intake and mortality are inconsistent and have not been summarized by meta-analysis.”

            So this study purports to be a meta-analysis.

            It does not account for extraneous factors such as previous diet which when whole wheat introduced, is going to be a substantial improvement. Regardless those health benefits quantify at 17% for colorectal cancer.

            So back to the sharks:

            For example, Haas et al reported an inverse association between WG intake and colorectal cancer incidence based on a meta-analysis of 25 studies.16 Aune et alfurther performed a dose-response analysis of six prospective studies and found a linear inverse association between WG food intake and colorectal cancer risk, with each 3-serving increment associated with a 17% lower risk.15 It is possible that the association between WG intake and cancer is dependent on population characteristics and cancer types and is partly explained by other lifestyle and dietary factors,23 which needs to be investigated by further studies.

            There was no mention I could find of how many people were involved in the 25 studies they examined but let’s put the 17% improvement into personal context. In a study of 1,000 people, 17% of those people are getting the shark proof suits before they jump into the shark infested ocean. None of the other 83% are going to survive. They are taste treats for the sharks. You don’t know whether you have a shark proof suit or not. Do you jump in? No you don’t. And it turns out, there were no shark proof suits. There just weren’t enough sharks handy to eat all of the swimmers. So 830 people died thinking Whole Grains are a healthy option and 170 lived but have no idea why after watching their friends being being chewed up and eaten by the sharks and then finding out afterwards there were no shark proof suits.

            What about diabetes? This is what they had to say:

            “Studies included in this meta-analysis collectively showed strong and robust inverse associations between WG intake and CVD mortality. The results were in line with existing findings linking WG intake with CVD risk, as well as other cardiometabolic conditions such as type 2 diabetes. Meta-analyses of 8 to 14 prospective cohort studies reported a 21% CVD risk reduction comparing the highest WG intake group with the lowest8 , 12 , 13 For diabetes risk, pooled RR (95%CIs) comparing extreme WG groups was 0.74 (0.69, 0.80),8 with each 2–3 servings/day increment associated with 21–32% lower risk.9 , 15 Two meta-analyses of clinical trial results consistently documented that WG intake lowered fasting glucose, LDL-cholesterol, total cholesterol, and body fat percentage.”

            I have a FreeSpirit Libre that I use to monitor my blood sugar according to what I just ate when I eat a mono meal. So no wiggle room.

            If I eat what this study suggests, my blood sugar spikes every time. If I kept that up for life, my life would be short and miserable. How they arrived at numbers that don’t match mine? I can’t say but I’m not from Mars. So why should I believe their numbers over mine? A leap of faith? I don’t think so.

            In the Discussion section, the authors tell us about all the things that could be and likely are wrong with their work and then conclude we should believe what they want us to believe right after they said this:

            For U.S. adults, over 70% of daily WG intake are from breads and cereals (yeast breads/rolls, quick breads, pastas/cooked cereals/rice, and ready-to-eat cereals),4 which were included by most studies in our dose-response meta-analysis. Because of the small number of studies available, meta-regression has limited capacity to identify potential sources of heterogeneity. As most studies are from U.S. and Scandinavian populations, it is not known whether these findings can be generalized to populations of other ethnicities. Most studies used FFQ to collect dietary data, which may underestimate WG intake when the list of food items was limited. Since WG contents vary both between and within food items, measurement error in WG and misclassification of participants are inevitable. Such random measurement errors may primarily weaken the true associations in these prospective studies. For studies that used short-term dietary assessment tools, such as 3-day food records, day-to-day variations of WG intake may reduce the validity of these assessments to reflect long-term diet. Other potential limitations include unmeasured or residual confounding from healthier lifestyles associated with high WG intake, and the inclusion of participants with prevalent and unmeasured new onset of disease during follow-up, which may substantially change the diet at baseline or during the follow-up period.

            Early on in this study, they said this that should have been in their Conclusions:

            While several studies observed significant inverse associations between WG intake and both total and CVD mortality,17 –23 others reported null findings.22 , 24 To our knowledge, no studies have quantitatively summarized the published literature on associations of WG intake with total and cause-specific mortality.

            When you access the studies you find that the real numbers are ludicrous in support of eating whole grain or any grain. The entire study is a farce and so are all the source studies used. The benefits attributed to consuming whole grain are so low they could be accidental. When you have a 9% improvement over refined flour for heart disease and none for cancer you have to ask yourself: WHO IS ZOOMING WHO????

            I can’t believe you people actually believe this crap!

        2. Hi Deb,

          Both of those studies are wrong. They are perfect examples of studies done by scientists who are incompetent and are serving the grain industry.

          After reading my post you still fell for the bullshit.

          The study about periodontitis noted that men were 23% less likely to get it if consuming rye bread. What about the 77% who still got it? Do you just conveniently ignore them? The 23% probably used water piks and did a better job of flossing. That doesn’t mean those test subjects will not get the disease later, just that they didn’t get it during the study.

          The study also doesn’t take past antibiotic use into account. Antibiotic use weakens teeth substantially. There’s no indication they avoided that sort of test subject.

          Same for the constipation study. A major crock of shit all by itself. Telling us that bowel movements were improved doesn’t mean constipation was relieved. Constipation can be present even if you have a bowel movement every day. What this study fails to mention is Systemic Constipation. They never talk about that. And to make the claim they did, there would need to be a much higher success rate; like about 90% before you can start talking about relief because this study did not spell relief for most of the test subjects.

          As for transit time, the study doesn’t tell us what the starting transit time was. It’s expressed as a %. That’s a favourite trick used by politicians and scientists to put a positive spin on bullshit.

          Then they say that rye bread improves colonic metabolism. Well big hairy deal. Improved it by a few percent that the study admits made little difference to the overall health of the test subjects.

          Keep in mind what was actually being done. It was a comparison to laxatives which are never a good choice for a person with chronic constipation.

          Laxatives generally work within hours and are not recommended for more than very occasional use, not as a therapy which these clowns did.

          Then as a result of this mind boggling circus, they gave us increased weekly defecations by 1.4 – as compared to what?

          Three weeks is 21 days and 63 meals which should if you are not constipated and your bowels move naturally as opposed to 21st century constipated normal, give you at least 63 bowel movements.

          But they didn’t say that.

          They talked about acidity and glucose in equally meaningless terms.

          Both of those studies were completely and utterly fraudulent. And don’t think I could not go on at great length with other errors in these two studies.

          So if you have a plethora of self-serving studies being done like this, and like this is what most of them are, industry has the perfect cover and even people as aware as you get duped.


          Rye bread and lactobacilli modify the colonic environment and have the potential to relieve constipation and could be a safe and convenient alternative to laxatives. The effects of rye bread and cultured buttermilk with Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG (LGG) on bowel function and colon metabolism were investigated and compared with laxatives in 51 constipated adults. They were randomized to receive whole-grain rye bread (minimum 240 g/d), LGG (2 x 10(10) colony-forming units/d), whole-grain rye bread (minimum 240 g/d) + LGG (2 x 10(10) colony-forming units/d), white wheat bread (maximum 192 g/d), or laxatives (as usual for a participant) for 3 wk. Participants recorded their dietary habits, bowel function, and gastrointestinal symptoms. Fecal weight, pH, SCFA and bacterial enzyme activities, total intestinal transit time (TITT), and breath hydrogen were determined. Rye bread, compared with white wheat bread, shortened TITT by 23% (P = 0.040), increased weekly defecations by 1.4 (P = 0.014), softened feces [odds ratio (OR) 3.98; P = 0.037], eased defecation (OR 5.08; P = 0.018), increased fecal acetic acid and butyric acid contents by 24% (P = 0.044) and 63% (P <0.001), respectively, and reduced fecal beta-glucuronidase activity by 23% (P = 0.014). Compared with laxatives, rye bread reduced TITT by 41% (P = 0.006), fecal beta-glucuronidase activity by 38% (P = 0.033), and fecal pH by 0.31 units (P = 0.006). LGG did not relieve constipation or significantly affect colonic metabolism. Gastrointestinal adverse effects did not significantly differ among the study groups. In conclusion, rye bread relieves mild constipation and improves colonic metabolism compared with white wheat bread and commonly used laxatives without increasing gastrointestinal adverse effects

          1. John,

            Okay, I can understand your points about the rye bread and agree with you that people shouldn’t have to ever take laxatives.

            The first thing I don’t understand is that any of the people who really are Whole Food Plant Based are constipated. Maybe I don’t understand your definition. I do know that I have a bowel movement after every meal, plus at bedtime and waking up. So I don’t consider myself constipated. When I used to eat animal products and didn’t eat fiber, I did get constipated, but that ended the first week of WFPB and I haven’t taken antibiotics for decades, and I also agree with you about the fact that we shouldn’t be on them.

            I am not going to speculate doctor by doctor, but I do know that the Low Carb community, which I also interact with has very different teachings on bowel movements. Dr. Greger talks about the Whole Food Plant-Based people losing 2 pounds in one bowel movement and Keto communicates this: https://www.livestrong.com/article/509998-do-low-carbs-affect-bowel-movements/

            One thing I will say to you is that I don’t think you can call the Adventist study a scam. It is still ongoing and they are the most long-lived people on the planet and happen to like bread.

            Not sure if they eat Ezekiel bread. They might. Christians often do eat Ezekiel bread because of Biblical references.

            But they do not eat white bread.

            1. Plus, I am going to ask what you are looking at that you would think that the Whole Food Plant-Based doctors are constipated?

            2. The Adventist people also drink their own live milk and eat their own live butter. That according to Dr. Weston Price makes all the difference.

              Dr. Price travelled the world for almost 10 years with his wife also a doctor and the people he visited were aboriginal untainted tribes. He analyzed teeth (he was a dentist), physical health and local diets.

              All of these people had things in common from the Arctic to the tropics:

              They all but 1% people had perfect teeth, perfect gums, perfect dental arches and no dentists.

              He even found a couple of remote villages in Switzerland where the same conditions prevailed. Those people had dairy cattle and a green coating over perfect teeth.

              He never found a healthy population who ate bread or dairy from outside their communities.
              The Masai and the Zulus drank milk from cows but always mixed blood with it. They were tall and powerful.

              Pygmies had no grain or dairy and lived in the Congo again healthy, good teeth, no dairy, no grain. And on and on.

              The people who did have local grain and dairy lived a Neolithic or transitional lifestyle that didn’t last long in the civilized world in most cases.

              Once the distance from source to consumption exceeded comfortable walking distance trouble started globally.
              The fossil record shows this clearly.

              Before grain, 14,000 years or so ago, perfect teeth and bones and exceptionally strong people. From there the human race has devolved with people becoming shorter, weaker, sicker and universally bad teeth and gums Bad teeth and gums translate into inflamed cecums and constipation. Not on the global scale we have today but its been getting progressively worse ever since.

              We are now the sickest species ever to live on planet earth.

              That’s about it for now. We have a power failure going on and long missives on a cell phone aren’t fun.
              More later.

              1. John,

                The Adventists are broken into groups and it is the Vegan males who live the longest.

                They aren’t drinking the milk or eating the butter and that tells me that you are a Weston Price follower.

                1. No, not a Price follower. For me the real as I can make it Paleo Diet works. Mind you most of the tribes he checked out were Paleo.
                  The Neolithics were in the minority. I don’t have the book yet so I can’t be sure. I am convinced most of the forage foods our ancestors are are still around. We call them weeds.
                  They’re plants that wouldn’t be be domesticated for one reason or another.

                  Price apparently loved butter loaded with Vitamin A and K2.

                  1. The popular ‘paleo diet’ is a modern myth.

                    People didn’t just start eating grains following the invention farming. It’s more logical to think that people started growing grains because they already knew that grains were a useful and widely available food source. Consider scientific articles on this point rather than the claims of people selling paleo diet books and associated products and services eg
                    ‘The results show that these tools were used to process various plants, including Triticeae and Paniceae grasses, Vigna beans, Dioscorea opposita yam, and Trichosanthes kirilowii snakegourd roots. Tubers were important food resources for Paleolithic hunter–gatherers, and Paniceae grasses were exploited about 12,000 y before their domestication. The long tradition of intensive exploitation of certain types of flora helped Paleolithic people understand the properties of these plants, including their medicinal uses, and eventually led to the plants’ domestication. This study sheds light on the deep history of the broad spectrum subsistence strategy characteristic of late Pleistocene north China before the origins of agriculture in this region.’

                    Humans, unlike other great apes, have multiple genes for digesting starch ……. and grains and tubers are starchy foods. In fact, we now know that people have been eating grains and tubers for over 100,000 years at least. Possibly much longer

                    ‘The consumption of wild cereals among prehistoric hunters and gatherers appears to be far more ancient than previously thought, according to an archaeologist who has found the oldest example of extensive reliance on cereal and root staples in the diet of early Homo sapiens more than 100,000 years ago.’

                    There is therefore good reason to think that the modern idea of a paleo diet is simply a myth based n the fact that animal bones are more likely to fossilize and they survive time better than plant foods, and that in certain marginal environments meat was likely to have been a big part of the diet.

                2. I was eating the real Paleo Diet before l found out much about Price. I was inspired by Dr. Stephen Lin who wrote The Dental Diet.
                  It would be instructive to be able to examine the teeth of those Adventist’s.

                  Regardless, more people lived healthier and more successfully before grain. There is evidence supporting that. It’s not a theory or research.
                  They also lived as long as we do only in much better health.
                  The stories of their short lives is a result of averaging populations.
                  We know that from the bone record.

                  1. The problem is that the longevity studies, where people reverse disease and live into their 90’s and 100’s don’t back that up.

                    They DO back up that people do get harmed by refined carbs, which are grains with the fiber removed.

                    That is the distinction.

                    1. What I will say about Paleo is that Dr. Wahls testimonial is real.


                      I have listened to her many times and she said a sentence, which I see as critical.

                      She said, “I adopted the Paleo diet in 2002, I gave up all grains, legumes, and dairy, but I continued to decline. In 2003, I went into a wheel chair and up through 2007, I was getting continually worse. But when I redesigned that diet based on what I had learned from functional medicine, I had a very structured approach and I am now focusing on what to add to make sure my brain has what it needs. So now I have ramped up the vegetables. I have 3 cups of leafy greens for the Vitamin K, Carotenoids, Magnesium. 3 cups of Sulfur-rich vegetables……… Then I have 3 cups of deeply pigmented things – beets, carrots, berries, etc.” (The …. means that I am sick of typing every single word of the transcript…..)

                      Okay, go to the Flashback Friday Video on Calorie Density and tell me what happens when you add 3 cups of leafy greens, 3 cups of sulfur-rich vegetables and 3 cups of deeply pigmented vegetables to your meals every single day.

                      Okay, Whole Food Plant Based community, how many of you are falling short on one of those 3 categories?

                      I genuinely am trying to do this right now and it has nothing to do with Paleo, but what I notice is that (animal products aside) once you add all that in, you are pretty darn close to Whole Food Plant-Based.

                  2. Okay, back up.

                    I gave up the grains, legumes, and dairy and got worse and ended up in a wheel chair.

                    Those things weren’t the answer.

                    She didn’t get better until she really upped the ante in vegetables.

                    1. She even gave up REFINED grains and it didn’t improve her condition.

                      She ended up in a wheel chair.

                      BUT Brenda Davis has the statistics that getting rid of the REFINED grains SHOULD HAVE helped her to IMPROVE SOME.

                      I don’t know if I am presenting the logic properly.

                      She cleaned the refined grains out of her diet and didn’t improve at all. She got worse.

                      She added such HUGE portions of vegetables and fruit and was riding 10 miles on a bike.

                      I say that because pre-coming here, I had such big brain problems from SAD diet and each and every change has “improved things some” (except for supplementing Methyl B12 only – that caused symptoms)

                      I drank Fiji water and the silica got rid of hallucinations and night terrors.

                      I got rid of saturated fats and my horizontal fingernail ridges improved.

                      I got rid of dairy and my constipation improved and I would still get acne now and then way past being a teenager and getting rid of dairy got rid of those stray pimples.

                      Adding broccoli sprouts improved social anxiety.

                      Adding Omega 3’s improved executive function.

                      Adding Magnesium got rid of chocolate cravings.

                      I started supplementing B12 and eating plant foods and I stopped having the cognitive impairment at the same level and it keeps getting better.

                      Each and every food I have added or subtracted has improved something.

                      Not sure the beet chips have helped, but I looked at the chart that day and dried beet chips might not help and I am probably going to stop spending money on them instead of cutting back on something like the blueberries.

                    2. I will add that when I came here, I knew I had so many symptoms of Diabetes and had zero intention of going on meds, but I had stopped eating bread, pasta, potatoes, sweets of all kinds, soda, etc.

                      None of those things really did improve much of anything, except that I stopped having cravings for sweets, which could have been from the artificial sweeteners or from getting rid of the real sweeteners and refined flour. but I didn’t lose any weight at all. Not one pound after giving all of that up and I didn’t get rid of my Diabetes symptoms.

                      I slowly integrated the whole grains and legumes in and got rid of dairy and oil and that was the first pounds lost and that was when my nail ridges started going away. The nail ridges and eye problems and some of the brain problems were gone fairly quickly, but the moderators would know that I was still up all night having hallucinations and night terrors for the first 6 months.

                      The Fiji water and improving the source of B12 and eating vegetables got rid of those.

                      I am eating huge quantities of vegetables in my own mind, but I am not up to Dr. Wahls 3 cups of each of those things. I am probably 2 cups of cruciferous and 2 cups of bright colored vegetables and the greens depend on how sick of salad I get. Sometimes I do get 3 cups, but that tends to get expensive and I start to get bored.

                      Dr. Wahls inspires me to eat vegetables so often.

                    3. So the getting rid of grains and legumes didn’t reverse ANYTHING at all and she had YEARS of trying that way of eating.

                      So vegetables were the superheroes and did REVERSE disease.

                      And she was high nutrition. (John McDougall worries about getting too much nutrition but it reversed MS, so that might be what Dr Swank needed to add in because he just stopped the progression, right?)

                      I am not against Paleo done as what it became after, but is there a likelihood that she could have gotten rid of the concepts which didn’t work and she might have gotten even better results.

                      That would be a good study.

                      The only problem with Paleo after adding in all those vegetables is that the people don’t come here talking about the vegetables. If they did, I would be applauding.

                      They come throwing grains and legumes under the bus.

                      I need the whole grains and legumes at the very least because all of those vegetables costs a fortune.

                      I just went to Whole Foods inspired by Dr Wahls and spent so much money and didn’t even get 3 days worth of the greens and cruciferoud and colored foods.

                      It would bring my groceries up to half my salary.

                    4. I looked up Whole Grains and MS and:

                      “Little work has been completed with relation to whole grains; however, they are included here because a recent study suggests an association with MS disease course and there is a potential mechanistic connection that also applies to fruits and vegetables that are high in fiber. The NARCOMS study described above noted an inverse relationship between whole grain intake and MS-related disability [95••]. Participants in the top vs. bottom quintile of whole grain consumption had lower odds of severe vs. mild disability (odds ratio 0.78, p = 0.02).

                      A mechanistic link may lie in the capacity for gut microbiota to ferment high fiber foods (certain grains, vegetables, fruits) to short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs). SCFAs favor immunomodulation by promoting intestinal epithelial cell integrity, inducing the differentiation of Tregs [64], and reducing the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines and chemokines, among other effects, mediated through activation of GPCRs and HDAC inhibition…..”

                      Now I just need legumes to have been tested.

                      To me, it might be that she put herself in a wheelchair maybe by going so low in grains and legumes and lowering her fiber too much?

                      Okay, legumes help short-chain fatty acids



                      “In line with the overall protective effect, blood levels of major SCFAs, such as acetate, propionate and butyrate, are significantly decreased in long-term active progressive multiple sclerosis (MS) patients.”

                      So the avoiding Whole Grains and Legumes really could be what put her in a wheelchair.

                      VEGETABLES in RIDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE quanitities was enough without the Whole Grains and Legumes to REVERSE the MS enough to get her out of the wheel chair.

                      Dear Dr. McDougall,

                      Use the highest fiber version of your program with the MS patients. (If they are still doing the fatigue study.)

                      Then, if it isn’t just the fiber, it would be fiber plus the extra nutrition maybe?

                    5. I am trying to figure out the logic for MS because I do have friends who have it.

                      The vegetables worked even without the grains and legumes.

                      I am thinking

                      Fatty acids
                      Low salt
                      Low oil




                    6. It seems like figuring out which short chain fatty acids and which vegetables.

                      Wondering if Dr McDougall teaches making starches resistant in his program?

                    7. Deb said: “I need the whole grains and legumes at the very least because all of those vegetables costs a fortune.”
                      – – – – – –

                      For all you smoothie folks out there, I can see that veggies would indeed cost a few arms and a leg. Good grief, seems to me one needs a huge bag of kale, for instance, just to make a lousy glass of a smoothie concoction. I get plenty of veggies and fruits throughout the day, but prepare them in other ways….by steaming, raw salad or whatever.

                      As I’ve posted elsewhere, I shop by local bus (or walk to nearby market), so can’t really load up on a truck-full of veggies every time I venture out, just to make a smoothie

                    8. Deb

                      You wrote “It seems like figuring out which short chain fatty acids and which vegetables.”

                      Why bother? Just eat lots of high fibre foods

                      “Short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), the end products of fermentation of dietary fibers by the anaerobic intestinal microbiota, have been shown to exert multiple beneficial effects on mammalian energy metabolism.’

            3. “I do know that I have a bowel movement after every meal, plus at bedtime and waking up.”
              – – – –

              Wow Deb, that’s a helluva lot of pooping goin’ on at your place! I’d think if you let it all rip after your evening meal, there wouldn’t be anything left to churn out again before bedtime.

              Your poor arse. :-(

              1. That’s not what happens. A natural bowel movement takes only a few seconds.

                Food in waste out, food in waste out. That’s how every living thing on planet earth evolved. Even car engines follow the same principle.

                  1. When you eat three meals the stools are spaced out in the gut if they’re properly hydrated. They cannot be jammed together unless something blocks the first stool from being excreted. When that happens you are constipated. Typically no one cares as long as it leaves all the same day. But if that happens often enough the colon is trained to function that way and things can slowly or quickly go from bad to worse.

                    As for how do I spot constipated people, it’s quite simple really.
                    They are overweight or underweight, poor skin, the texture of the Irises, wrinkles in the wrong places, old looking instead of young looking, bad breath, fury or whitish tongue, finger nails not healthy, limp hair, fatigue, slow thinking, skin tone, poor muscle tone, bad teeth or no teeth.

                    Lastly, they just tell me.

                    1. Hah! I’m none of the above. :- P For instance, when I tell people my age, they often say, “You are? Well, God bless you!”

              2. It is a non-issue.

                I do not even think about bathroom issues.

                The last time it came to mind was when I ate cheese pizza long after going vegan and it made me so constipated and so sick inside.

                That surprised me because cheese was my favorite food after chocolate and I ate it multiple times per day. I do know that it would bind me up and I would be miserable, but the last time I ate it, I already felt sick to my stomach at the table and was so constipated the next morning that I basically went through the pain without enjoying eating the pizza.

                What I realized is that I had times when I ate cheese that I would be in the bathroom for a very, very, very long time and now everything is easy breezy.

            1. Of course you did. I’m ahead of the curve. My contribution to the medical field is imagination and creative thinking.

              Doctors and scientists don’t know anything about Systemic Constipation. To think of it requires imagination they don’t have.

              You’ll see it when my book comes out. Chances are you will have figured it out by then. It’s not rocket science but it serves to illustrate how poorly medical minds actually work when memory is not a factor.

      1. I finally have power restored enough to go through this thread and find I missed looking at a study you sent:


        I believe the study your provided proves my point. 34,160 men were tracked every 4 years for an unspecified length of time to determine whether eating whole grains and increased fibre had any noticeable effect on hypoglycemia, diabetes, improved insulin sensitivity and periodontitis were positively affected.

        The results showed 23% (44,408) of men did not get periodontitis but 78,568 men did. So while whole grain may have helped some men, the vast majority got periodontitis anyway.

        So the conclusion was that whole grain may help prevent gum disease. But mostly it won’t.

        Thank you for that Deb. I’ll use it in my book.

    1. Interesting rant, John. Are you able to supply any links to back up your statements?

      For instance: “…. grain as the #1 cause of gum disease.”

      “Pretty well all of our food is GMO.”

      “It is important to note that grain and dairy are the two main dietary causes of constipation.”

      “Nearly all doctors and scientists are constipated. “

      1. For instance for the first point, any blockhead knows that flour and water make wall paper paste. We’ve known that for as long as wallpaper has been around. So when you mix saliva with grain you get the same thing. You can test it on yourself.. Stop cleaning your gum lines and see how long your teeth last.

        There is practically no food in our supermarkets that has not been genetically modified. You can do your own research on that. It’s pretty easy.

        The protein in milk is casein. That protein is used to make adhesives because it is an adhesive.

        Gluten is Latin for GLUE. Look it up.

        All grains have adhesive components and both dairy and grains are mucus when mixed with saliva. Neither is the same viscosity as the saliva we secrete. So blockages form all over the body. Snot is a great example.

        The first thing you do when you have constipation is get all forms dairy and grain off the menu. And bananas. If you don’t you stay constipated. Try it.

        Go to any medical dictionary and read the definition of constipation. Then think about what a dog or cat does right after they eat. It’s not rocket science. This is pretty basic stuff.

        Of course there’s a lot more to it than that. For more you’ll have to wait for my new book: A PORTRAIT OF A REALLY, REALLY GOOD SHIT.

        1. Hah. In other words, you have no “reputable scientific” (as Fumbles might say) links to post. Figured as much; blanket statements.

          I eat a banana every morning mixed with my hot (whole-grain) cereal and have NEVER had a problem in the constipation department. On the other hand, your plumbing might indeed be affected by certain foods. Different strokes.

          Gee, I can hardly wait to read your shitty book. :-)

          1. Yes it’s being proofed by gastroenterologists.

            It’s not can’t, its won’t. If you aren’t bright enough to understand what I just told you, well that tells the rest of us just how serious the situation is. Because you being here means you understand much more than the general public and you still don’t get it.

            1. “Yes it’s being proofed by gastroenterologists.”
              – – – – – –

              I assume you’re referring to your shitty book.

              Are you making plans to push your book of shit on national TV shows? Are you with a big publisher and do you have an agent? Or did you shell out big bucks to have your book self-published? (If you do manage to get on the TV shows, try not to be snarky and “know-it-all.”)

              1. At the moment I’m with Amazon. I won’t be self publishing I don’t think because I don’t want the backache of moving heavy boxes of books. Been there, done that.

                Yes the book will be promoted in the media. It’s a lot of fun and full of stuff we should all have been taught in school but weren’t.

                The book is essentially done. The hard part is the References. Not finding them, typing them. It’s sheer drudgery.

                I still have no idea how I’m going to get through the index. I approached someone who does it for a living and they wanted $5,000 to do it.

                The References are another challenge in another way and that is to ensure the sources aren’t fraudulent.

                I know enough science to spot most of the tricks but probably not all of them.

                You can imagine with some of the outlandish claims I make that finding references to back myself up is time consuming. This isn’t a full time job.

                The other problem is getting the networks to let the word SHIT be shown and talked about at length on air.

                But since the book is all about resolving constipation as well as other connected bodily blockages and since network owners and executives are as constipated as the next person if not more, then possibly they’ll come to their senses. It’s not like everyone isn’t saying the word over and over every day.

                Getting GI doctors to initially take the book seriously was a challenge at first and is each time because they aren’t expecting an interior designer to know more than they do. If they open the book and start reading on any page, they’re hooked.

                  1. Thanks. But here’s something to be going on with: most doctors are not the geniuses we think they are. Most of them just have great memories and a bit of common sense. Surgeons have good motor skills and strong backs. In real life they aren’t that bright.

                    That’s why modern medicine is advancing at glacial speed. They can’t think creatively. They can’t make the quantum leaps more than once or twice in a life time.

                    Designers on the other hand, are paid to make quantum leaps. If we can’t make them fast and correctly, we are not designers for very long. Once you have that skill set, you can use it in any field you have an interest in and quickly run rings around the pros in that field when it comes to new ways to think and new ways to solve problems. Doing that doesn’t make an interior designer a great surgeon but it does accelerate knowledge. Somehow though you have to get close enough to be taken seriously.

                  1. Yes. That only works though if you have a pipeline into the industry and I have a couple of them. If it works, I make big money If it doesn’t I have other resources.

              2. But wait! Isn’t a gastroenterologist a specialist in the field of medicine?

                And you said, and I quote: “Nearly all doctors and scientists are constipated.”

                Will your proof-reading specialist be honest in telling you if he/she is constipated?

                1. II don’t need any one to tell me if a person is constipated or not. I can tell whether constipation is an issue within a couple of seconds. No doctor can lie to me. I’ve been doing this for 40 years.

                    1. Yes my gastroenterologist is constipated. I have yet to meet on that was not constipated. So is every doctor I’ve ever met and I’ve met many.

            2. John Newell, “ if you aren’t bright enough to understand”?
              Personal insults are the usual response of people who have nothing useful to say.
              Many of us here are scientists, We are looking for legitimate proof. When you have that to offer, instead of insults, feel free to educate.

              1. Thanks Marilyn, but we can consider the source. Methinks his bark is worse than his bite.

                Notice how he couldn’t provide any “reputable scientific” links, only opinions. Wait until Fumbles shows up……..:-)

                1. You guys are doing fine.

                  I had all my fun with VD (so to speak). That toxic combination of ignorance, incompetence and aggression was fascinating and entertaining – a bit like a train wreck being both horrific and mesmerizing. VD made me think of studies like this below which found that;


                  Which is why I am always wary of people who claim that they are especially brilliant, knowledgeable or insightful and panels of world class scientists simply don’t know what they are talking about.

                  John doesn’t seem to be in VD’s class though. No frothing at the mouth for one thing.

              2. Okay, I’ll keep that in mind. I’m so used to being sniped at for introducing new thinking that I react like a pit bull sometimes.
                For whatever reason people seem to think only doctors and scientists can introduce new and revolutionary concepts.

                Some fields of medicine have stagnated for so long (the GI sector for instance) that even as a rank outsider you can see they still have a burden of outdated information they are saddled with. And they don’t want to listen either. I’d be happy to learn differently here.

                1. I think you’re using this crowd (can be tough) as a “training bra,” am I right?

                  BTW, does your shit book have only a working title? Maybe the word could be changed to “poop” — or “bleep.” Dr. Oz never hesitates to use the poop word. I knew an illustrator who published THE TRUTH ABOUT POOP. Although, why “poop” passes and shit supposedly doesn’t beats hell outta me.

                  Or, if you wanna keep shit, maybe in your introduction you could say when/where the word originated.


                  1. No, I just like Dr. Greger’s Style and the fact that he is uncovering the research for concepts I pioneered decades ago.
                    Oz has done similarly but he doesn’t pay enough attention to detail plus he relies too much on staff to do his research.
                    Dr. Greger is hands on. You can’t make quantum leaps unless you do the grunt work yourself.

                    Then occasionally I see errors. Until now I’ve kept quiet.

                    Fake science sets me off and there’s a lot of it going around.

          2. Just because you have a bowel movement every day does not mean you aren’t constipated. It just means you can still move what is in the tube. Constipation also includes what gets stuck in the colon walls that are several layers thick. That’s where colon cancer starts. Not stuck on the surface.

            1. Well, there ain’t nobody goin’ to go rootin’ around in my BEhind to find out! :-(

              So, John…..besides avoiding dairy and grains, what DO you eat in a day? Heavy on the animal foods or what?

              1. I eat a Paleo diet. The real paleo diet as much as possible not what is in the Paleo diet book. So that means meat, fish, vegetables of all sorts but no nightshade plant produce, berries, hemp hearts, tahini sauce.

                In terms of ratio, 60% vegetables, 20% fruit, nuts, seeds, 20% meat or fish. That’s how I divide it up.

                How I come by my knowledge is the compete opposite to Dr. Greger. I’ve been a serial patient for most of my life.

                I was dying at 29 years old following my various doctors’ advice. I finally decided to take responsibility for my own health.

                Back then in the late 70s information was very difficult to come by but I got lucky and found some books and booklets that put it all into perspective.

                That was the easy part.

                The hard part was eliminating my food addictions and at the same time being a person with no experience at food prep and less inclination to learn.

                I sort of backed into it by designing a health food for Tropical Fish. Having been in every aspect of fish keeping, breeding, importing, selling retail and wholesale I knew more about fish nutrition from gathering the live foods from ponds and from making up recipes that worked than anyone not a scientist in North America. When I delivered my frozen foods to the pet shops, there’d be line ups of people waiting for the shipment. I learned that even Piranhas need more vegetable matter in their diet than meat.

                Anyway, when I started trying to feed myself I was hampered because I was on the road a lot building Sears stores. It was very difficult to eat vegetables while on the road. There weren’t many outside of lettuce and parsley and the occasional carrot. No shortage of tomatoes. But even then I knew to stay away.

                But the trips to and from the sites were my downfall. I’d load up on snacks often for the trip.

                Anyway it took most of the next 40 years to finally defeat my food addictions. Once I did, all the benefits I’d been telling people about all those years finally came to me too.

                What I learned is that you cannot recover your youthful vitality, your essential joy of simply living if you still have sugar, grain or dairy in your life. Of course alcohol was out and I was never into smoking or drugs. But being a serial patient means I had a lot of antibiotics therapy and that was a disaster. Did you know Tetracycline turns your teeth orange? There are other side effects too. You don’t recover from stuff like that in a hurry.

                On my diet I lost about 2 pounds a week until my weight stabilized by itself at 147. I haven’t done the exercise I need to do yet because of surgeries and other stuff that has plagued me for the last 4 years.

                  1. Better than not learning at all. Now, based on where you are your colon is probably stretched a bit. Whole grain might help but if you’re already eating whole grain it hasn’t helped much.

                    If you are having a dump a day and three meals, Deb has 42 dumps on you.
                    That makes her colon alkaline and yours acidic.
                    Don’t think you’re the only one here like that. Probably most are like you and wish they were like Deb.
                    Regular is far from what most people think it is.

                    1. “That makes her colon alkaline and yours acidic.”
                      – – – – –

                      Okay, for a statement like that I’ll definitely expect a professional link. Where did you get that idea? I say bull.

                      I for one do not “wish” I were more like Deb.

                    2. Pond life. An acidic environment is where decay happens. Alkaline is growth. It’s always that way. You can test it with litmus paper.

                    3. That’s all bullshit.

                      How could every animal be food in waste out, food in waste out?
                      Every plant and fungi as well, Every internal combustion engine as well.
                      All healthy.

                      Then along comes a bunch of twerps who think they can eat stuff they did not evolve to eat with impunity. Tons of grain, gallons of dairy and several hundred pounds of sugar annually and expect to be healthy.
                      Only instead of being healthy they are now plagued with countless degenerative diseases and are the sickest species that has ever existed on Earth.

                      Few doctors own dogs or cats. If they did they’d see what the animal wants to do immediately upon finishing their meal. They want to go outside and take a dump.

                      Even if they did, doctors have been telling each other and us for centuries that we’re all different.

                      Where did they get that from? The church back in the Middle Ages. That’s how long constipation has been a major public health problem. It’s never been solved. But I’ve done it.

                      The thinking on constipation has not changed one jot in all that time.

                      That is doctors with their heads stuck firmly right up their own asses.

                      You can never solve a problem by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different to happen.
                      No doubt you’ve heard that before. Well now you see it as a line of thinking that has been repeated so many times that everyone believes it without stopping to think.

                      Have you ever see a film clip of a mule that walks endlessly around a well drawing water? That is doctors when confronted by a problem that needs a teaspoon of imagination to make a profound difference.

            2. John,

              Thank you for bringing your ideas. You just have to say where you got this logic and what evidence you have.

              Most people here don’t eat refined flour. When people eat bread, they tend to eat something like Ezekiel bread, which isn’t made from flour.

              I think part of the problem is that you are starting with the word, “grain” but it sounds like when you start communicating, you may be speaking more about “refined flour” is that true? Or are you saying that you avoid all grains, even in their whole form?

              I also think, that it is going to probably be harder to get Whole Food Plant Based people interested in constipation as a topic. That is usually a topic of other types of eating because people in these communities eat so much fiber. I think Mr Fumbles said that he plugged his toilet with a bowel movement.

              We have had this talk before and I am pretty sure only the people who don’t like vegetables all that much were on the pretty little poop end. That is how the dog food community describes keto poop and they are spinning it as “the proof is in the poop” being so small and cute and easy to pick up.

              1. You first need to understand that if you are trying to pitch your point, that trying to talk the concept of constipation to this community is more like you are trying to sell snow to the Eskimo community. (I watch American Ninja Warriors and the ones who are proud and successful sometimes proudly go by the term Eskimo.)

                When I lived out in California, we constantly thought about and talked about drought and wouldn’t wash our cars or flush the toilets or water the grass and people didn’t necessarily take showers every day or wash their clothes every time and all sorts of things. There were rules about it posted about it even in peoples’ houses. I came from the other coast and all of that was new.

                When I came home, I was still thinking like a Californian and my family was thinking like people who had so much water that they were looking to make sure their basements weren’t flooded.

                Looking for appliances, the reviews all favored low water because of conservation and my family favored high water versions because of washing and rinsing better and I think my father said to me, “Us taking showers or not taking showers affects our water supply, not California’s water supply.” Something like that.

                Trying to talk drought to people around here right now where we have had rain almost every day and it still has been raining this week, people aren’t going to even understand the topic. People from California are nonchalant about Vitamin D and I listen to them and it is such a big deal to me that I don’t even understand that they think I can go out in the rain and get enough Vitamin D to not need to supplement.

                You are trying to say, “Grain eaters have constipation” and fiber eaters don’t tend to have constipation as long as they are drinking enough water.

                1. When this thread started I wasn’t talking about grain so much until you posted those two fake studies and it went from there.

                  The reason I posted was because of corruption in the food industry that has its anchor in fake science.

                  So if as you say, there are doctors and scientists here, well I’d like to talk to them about how the frauds slip through the web of checks and balances.

                  Not long ago Dr. Greger talked about how phoney the FDA is. I’d like to hear more of that.

                  1. I am not going to agree with you that the studies are fake.

                    And, no, it didn’t say that everybody else got gum disease.

                    There have been more than one study done with thousands of people and whole grains lower the risk of it.

                    I do not believe that those studies are “industry” studies or “fake” studies at all.

                    The fact that refined grains are the biggest “industry” in our country, that point doesn’t make much sense. Refined grains tested as not protective and that is something that Weston Price and the Whole Food Plant-Based community would all agree on.

                    I also don’t agree with your take on it that everybody else in the study got it. The percentage is how much better the whole grain group was than everybody else. The other study I looked at on grains and gum disease also showed Whole Grains as protective. Interestingly and surprisingly, vegetables were not protective. Neither were fruits as a group, but fruits not being protective doesn’t surprise me.

                    1. Okay, let’s say then those studies are highly misleading. Also misleading is those studies not showing up here so everyone can see what we’re talking about. The response I highlighted in colour. Not that the colour will show up here.

                      Then we can talk about the bread. I haven’t seen real whole wheat bread in a grocery store in decades. What I see is brown coloured bread labelled as whole wheat. Another form of fraud that is allowed due to a loophole in labelling legislation.

                      So where did the bread come from that was used in the studies. Was it the same bread Joe average buys on Thursday night at Publix?

                      We aren’t given that information.

                      The whole wheat bread sold in every store I’ve been I for decades is far from whole wheat. Nobody is getting any protection from that.

                      The whole grains we’re really talking about is wheat. Wheat is 80% glue. The Latin word bandied about is gluten. That in itself is a deception since most people don’t know that when they’re eating bread, they’re really eating carpenter’s glue, the stuff used to stick wooden chairs together. I’ve yet to see a study that tells anyone that. More deception.

                      How much more do you need for before blatant deception becomes real for you?

                      Let’s assume the bread used in the mystery studies was actual whole wheat that isn’t available to Joe Average. The percentages in the studies were good enough for any other form of food to be considered food with an 80% glue content.

                      It’s the glue that causes gum disease and gum disease can take a long time to manifest. I’ve eaten my share of real whole wheat from Germany and that stuff did not protect me. Having the wheat hulls present in the bread does not change glue factor in wheat one iota. We’re talking molecules here, not chunks.

                      When mixed up in a bowl chewed whole wheat bread is is no less sticky that refined flour. Try it yourself. Chew some up and spit it out on a plate and see what you get.

                      Even that isn’t a fair test because on a plate, the continuous action of the saliva and the bacteria in the saliva aren’t available on the plate. You’ll be amazed at how long it takes for that slimy mass to dry out.

                      In your mouth in the complete absence of any dental care which is what Paleo man had, that glue sticks to the gum line. Once that happens a few times, that set of champers is toast, fibre or no fibre.

                      Cut to modern man who only brushes his teeth before he goes to bed and It doesn’t matter where he buys his bread, his teeth are going to end up in his pocket.

                      As for the protective power of fruit and vegetables we’re not talking modern day fruit and vegetables, we’re talking Paleo fruit and vegetables, very, very low in sugar. The fruit mostly sour and small. No one’s pigging out on fruit like we do today. I’m assuming you know what eating a few crab apples does to you… The vegetables are very fibrous. We call them weeds today. But that’s all they had then. Big difference from today and they needed a lot less of it to keep them going.

                      Most likely grain was eaten incidentally for many thousands of years before it was eaten in sufficient quantities to be noticed in caves as tartar on a Neanderthal’s teeth.

                      We also know that, given the choice Neanderthals were vegetarians. So humans must have been too.

                      Those Neanderthals with grain in their dental plaque had cavities. That grain would have been whole grain in the truest sense of the word.

                      The relationship between poor dental health and grain of any sort is too obvious to ignore by anyone but those who would rather lose their teeth than switch. There is no shortage of those people so they will continue to pay the price.

                      Once gum disease has set in and the bleeding has started, bacteria (pathogens) can enter the blood stream. Science has shown that over and over again. From their those pathogens have access to every cell in the body.

                      Someone mentioned Egyptians. Their diet was the old world equivalent of the western diet and they are the best primitive example of what grain and dairy does to the human body. No modern processing there but all of the degenerative diseases manifested for the first time and preserved in state of the art time capsules. Dental wreckage galore.

                      We don’t see that dental disaster without grain being present. And we know about the link between gum disease and heart disease. Can I make it any more obvious?

                    2. Oh and one more thing. Studies are just studies. They are not evidence. The fossil record is evidence.

              2. When I say grains I do mean whole grains. But not seeds or nuts.

                When grain mixes with stimulated saliva, whole or not the gluten in wheat for instance becomes glue.

                Gluten is Latin for GLUE.
                When you chew it in your mouth and it mixes into a slurry Before swallowing that slurry laminates to teeth at the gum line. These days people use nylon picks to remove it. Even so you don’t get all of it. You still have to go to the dentist to have what the bacteria left behind – plaque.
                If that is not scraped off, your gums bleed eventually and you have inflammation then bleeding then your immune system is breached.
                From there bacteria have access to every cell in your body.

                The caecum is one of those areas that is so often inflamed for that and other reasons they think that’s normal. It’s not normal 14,000 years ago but it is now.
                The cecum is a bit odd in that it’s a dead end going the wrong way.

                When the digested chyme extrudes out of the jejunum it falls into the dead end. Once it’s full, the rest of the chyme squishes up the ascending colon.
                If you’re eating whole grain or any grain the cecum might or might not empty, defying gravity. That’s assuming the bills is sufficiently hydrated. If not the bolts sits there and gets harder and more toxic.
                Anything stuck in the colon is itself sticky if it started out as grain and/or dairy. Add sugar and you have fermentation. That affects the chemical nature of all subsequent stools as they pass the cecum. Don’t forget the contents of the cecum are pretty slimy.

                Sticky chunks become dehydrated chunks like deer pellets. Early constipation.

                So that’s a bit of it.

                  1. The translation I used is a common one. Yours is the first I’ve seen but probably correct.

                    But still splitting hairs. Are you going to eat paste? Go ahead. My body works better without it. I’ve never seen the performance of any moving parts of anything be improved by the addition of paste.

                    1. What’s wrong with eating paste?

                      The definition of paste is ‘A thick, soft, moist substance typically produced by mixing dry ingredients with a liquid.’

                      Doesn’t sound objectionable to me – especially since any act of chewing automatically produces paste (if you chew properly).

                    2. That is not an accurate definition of paste. It leaves out the sticky component. Sticky as in snot sticky. Snot sticky that does not metabolize well. One booger likely won’t cause anyone problems. Repeated meals of sticky certainly will and does.

                    3. As far as diet goes, I fully understand the difference between the various diets and go at least one better: Eggs could only have been available in season if they could be found. So I only eat eggs occasionally. Twice so far this year I think. Paleo people were not eating eggs on a regular basis. I don’t follow any prescribed diet written by anyone else.

                      I eat mostly vegetables and berries. I eat more fish than red meat and not necessarily every day. We both know that hunter/gathering was not like going to the grocery store. I have looked at foraging but apart from dandelions and fiddleheads, I’m not about to denude the landscape in my area contributing to over-harvesting. Besides that I just don’t have the time.

                      I’d eat insects but these days who knows what they’ve been sprayed with? Today, residual chemicals – Volatile Organic Compounds coat everything. They only last in the environment for three days but since they are constantly reapplied by aviation exhaust, they contaminate everything all of the time. That’s the common factor between all the amphibian and insect extinctions and extirpations. The chemicals in aviation exhaust are the same ones used in pesticide. We are all inhaling that stuff too. They are transdermal and alter DNA – in everything that breathes.

                      Since I adopted this diet my health has improved to being better than at any time since I was about 7 years old and I’m 70 now. I’m still not exercising enough but that’s only due to recent hernia surgery.

                      I have eat wild meat when available and certainly appreciate the difference. I used to be an amateur taxidermist. Today, squirrels are the best wild meat for most people to eat since they eat only nuts and taste great. But I don’t need to hunt to live and having been a pro in the tropical fish industry, I’m not into fishing anymore either. Fish do have personalities. I do eat farm raised fish semi-regularly despite appreciating the difference between farmed and wild caught better than nearly anyone. Farm raising fish despite my eating them is a practice that should be banned. So I’m a hypocrite. But I’m old enough that I won’t live to see the disasters my experience and knowledge tells me that fish farming will bring. If I stopped today and agitated about it, no one would pay any attention so I’m not wasting energy and time in that direction.

                      I occasionally eat legumes but don’t miss them. I’ve never noticed any benefits, though chick peas and lupini beans are good for regulating blood sugar once you get the count right per meal.

                      I grew up on bread and pastries and that nearly killed me too many times to count. I caught a cold last week after over-exerting myself then eating what I thought would be a safe amount of oatmeal just to clear it out of my cupboard. Huge mistake. I had the cold the day after. I know colds take 9 days to incubate but in my case I’m alone most of the time so there was no one to catch the cold from any time in the preceding nine days.

                      I did manage to overcome it without antibiotics which used to be unthinkable for me. My colds used to last for months. On the other hand it shows that I still have excess mucus in my lungs.

                      Now due to the diet my mucus load is a fraction of what it once was. Thanks to the cold and not taking any antibiotics I’ve flushed a lot out. It’s taken decades to break my addiction to grain and repeated colds. This last one was the first in over a year.

                      When I finally did get off of bread, my sinuses cleared up. My sleep apnea was gone and I could breathe clearly for the first time in decades. Being able to breathe normally while sleeping means I sleep deeper and longer.

                      With this cold I was able to irrigate my sinuses and clear the cold in one session. Unfortunately I didn’t think of it right away or it would have been gone in a night instead of three days.

                      My body is now better than it was in my 20s in many respects less the muscle tone which is temporary and the arthritis in my hips. However a recent MRI showed my arthritis healing and thus documented in black and white in the accompanying write-up. More about that further on.

                      I used to be a typical Western style Hypoglycemic meaning I ate more than five people most of the time and stayed thin. Five 8 ounce steaks took 80 seconds for me to eat. I did a version of that every day for years along with lots of bread. No one does that with impunity, thus the arthritis, chronic constipation and continual respiratory illnesses that never really left. I cut down magnificently on my meat consumption. So that base was covered. I fully understand the implications of meat consumption.

                      I believe most paleo people ate plants most of the time because they grew everywhere. They didn’t have to go far for a meal. Even today in Europe, edible plants grow all over the place. Hardly anyone today realizes their weeds were their ancestors’ main meal. No one hunts when they have a meal right in front of them. But yes they still needed protein. When they ate an animal, they ate the whole thing just as other animals do. I only do that with sardines. Or used to. These days it’s hard to get sardines with their heads still on.

                      I do eat wild rice harvested by aboriginals. I eat quinoa as well. I eat goat rather than beef when I can get it as well as lamb.

                      Today we do lack good organ meat that can only be obtained from wild game. Not much we can do about that because if we tried it, there would be no animals left in less than a year.

                      Have you ever felt the muscles of a person who lives an outdoor life roughing it? They feel like oak. No one has muscles like that reading this post. We are the sickest species that has ever lived while eating grain and dairy. Paleo man must have been doing something we can’t duplicate. Wheat and dairy were NOT on the menu. I would not agree that they never ate legumes. Not finding evidence is not proving they did or did not do something.

                      Something not mentioned in any of this is the role of collagen in the diet. Collagen is an anti-aging component that as we age our bodies slowly stop manufacturing. Before Grain (BG) diets were very high in collagen. Modern diets offer zero collagen unless you know to buy it as a supplement. For me, the difference between having collagen and not having it is being able to walk and not being able to walk. Years of computer work cause my hips to disintegrate. Necrosis of the hip is what it’s called. Taking collagen makes a huge difference. I take lots of it in soups and salads. Not keeping your collagen levels up means you age faster as in deteriorate faster. Exercise does not appear to me to slow down the effect because I exercised a lot when I could. Most people cannot exercise continually every day. That’s what it would take as well as eating a collagen rich natural diet.

                      That right there makes a huge difference to life span between BG and PG humans. Once collagen is gone, you age faster. Period. We know that Post Grain (PG), humans aged faster and became sicker and sicker and sicker.

                      I’d say my diet is pretty good and still evolving in the nick of time.

                      My focus though has been on resolving constipation which has been a problem for at least 500 years that we know of. So the bulk of my research has been in that direction over the last 40 years. That gives you some idea of the depth of my addiction to grain including whole grains. But my problems really started with dairy so I’ve been investigating the science on both as they relate to constipation and how grain, dairy, sugar and meat add up to constipation, chronic constipation, systemic constipation and from there you’re into over 55 major degenerative diseases where this combination is implicated through constipation.

                      So I’ve become very suspicious of positive claims about dairy and grain. Sugar was a no brainer since I’ve proved to myself and others have proved that sugar is an accelerant for inflammation.

                      I finally twigged to the fraud in food research when I compared the science reporting process to the evolution of Street Racing legislation back in 2007. I was deeply involved in that as a former street racer and the sport’s only official retiree as covered briefly in the media.

                      The anti-street racing people used all sorts of fake data to snow the public and it worked. The way it worked was through the use of percentages without reference to real numbers. So a 30% increase from 2004 to 2005 in street racing deaths looked huge in the media. But when you actually looked at the numbers, the increase in deaths was from 2 to 3. But 8 people are killed by parked cars on average annually. I researched the numbers back to 1988 which is when Ontario started keeping detailed records. In all those years, street racing was never deserving of a category or even a mention. In the end all of the deaths that sparked the furor in the first place had nothing to do with street racing. The event that was cited in Hansard the day the legislation passed turned out to be police chasing and armed bank robbery suspect.

                      So having been through that more or less on the front lines and having seen the publicly acknowledged practice of testilying by police in court without sanctions, my scrutiny of science became a tighter focus.

                      Paleo Man mostly did not live in caves. There weren’t enough caves to go around. I’d say based on the fossil record that those people whose bones were found in the caves were there because caves were the hospitals of the day (you read that here first). People went there for long term care that could not be accommodated in a grass or twig hut. Those huts could not survive as artifacts because they were made of readily eaten material or material that would decompose. So the fossil record in caves shows a lot of sick people whose lives were cut unnaturally short. Broken limbs must have been tended to in caves long term rehab. They could not afford to lose a patriarch or a matriarch because those people were vital repositories of information needed for everyone’s survival. Each loss was a disaster. Many must have died for unknowable reasons. That’s what must have driven spirituality at least in part.

                      The fossil record shows that BG Paleo man was stronger, fitter, healthier than modern man. We know that from their dentition. Perfect teeth in all but 1% of them. The same findings Dr. Price found in aboriginal groups in the 1930s. You don’t die with perfect teeth and be a sickly individual in an era where predation is high and you have to walk everywhere. Not happening. The experts are wrong. Idiots even.

                      The difference between Paleo teeth, those checked by Price and modern teeth turned out to be Vitamin K2. But Vitamin K2 in concert with Vitamin A, D3, Carotene that results in high Calcium absorption, a combination rare in most homes today.

                      PG some cultures maintained good dental health with LIVE dairy products which supplies a lot of Vitamin A not found in modern commercial products. Vitamin K2 is almost completely gone from modern diets.

                      Live dairy does not represent the mucosal load that pasteurized dairy does. After all dairy was required to be pasteurized in the US in the 30s ear infections in children went from extremely rare to extremely common as published in textbooks by the Mayo Clinic. But they soon saw that these infections were the golden goose. So instead of telling people to stop drinking milk they developed new techniques to treat ear infections. In my opinion, that was criminal. That decision destroyed the lives of millions of people. Ear infections are a much bigger deal that the public realizes. Today 80% of American children have 3 or more ear infections by the age of 8. You can look that up. No problem with the math this time. The 20% who don’t get ear infections are presumed to be those who do not consume dairy products.

                      The claim that Paleo people lived short lives once the children are taken out of the equation drives the average life span up. The presence of otherwise healthy people dead in hospital means some sort of soft tissue injury possibly due to a wound of some sort becoming infected. I don’t buy that those people could survive all those years with relatively short life spans or that they were unhealthy. You can’t live in the bush today for long and be unhealthy, never mind raise family. It doesn’t add up for me. Preposterous. Most people alive today could not last a single day in the Canadian bush. Our Aboriginals lived in it without grain for thousands of years before they discovered maize and became farmers. Aboriginals in Canada were not like those depicted in the movies. They were Neolithic farmers to varying degrees in most cases when Europeans arrived. The arrival of grain, grain, sugar and cows has been a genocidal disaster for all of them.

                      BG old people could not have lived long as old people if they were unhealthy as nomads. Old people in a society without writing were the historical records and the memory of where to go and be at certain times of year to take advantage of animal migrations and plants in season. They were also the medical record. We have evidence they knew of brain surgery and their skills were phenomenal considering what they had to work with. They were far from stupid. Those people after 300,000 years had to have all known more about nutrition than anyone alive today. They could not have survived long enough to think about farming otherwise. But once farming was common, their nutritional knowledge vaporized.

                      When I learned, figured all of this out, I changed my diet to suit as I went along. The results were immediate and dramatic. My finger and toe nails which were a mess since Grade 1 are now perfect. My circulation has improved. I solved a heart condition that would have seen anyone else put on drugs for the rest of their lives. My blood pressure is perfect. My blood is perfect. My energy level is through the roof. I do things most 40 year olds would not attempt.

                      My efforts may not be perfect but they are evolving and improving.

                    4. Long-winded John wrote, “Five 8 ounce steaks took 80 seconds for me to eat. I did a version of that every day for years along with lots of bread.”

                      If you were in the habit of eating steak and bread during the same meal, no wonder you had various health ailments. Quite possibly brands like Wonder Bread, to boot. Do they still make that crap?

                      Despite a huge age difference, John has a lot in common with Vegetable Police. They are both men “in search” for themselves. Deb is another searcher, bless her heart! :-)

                      (Everyone is, of course; it’s what life is all about.)

                    5. Wonder bread isn’t available in Canada as far as I know.

                      Things that are known about nutrition now were completely unknown in the late 70s when I started my research. There were only two cookbooks that could be used to learn healthy eating habits. The first was Diet For a Small Planet (1971) which could only be purchased in my area from a bookstore specializing in the occult called The Fifth Kingdom Bookshop. The real ground breaker though was the F Plan Diet (1977). That was the first book to talk about what dietary fibre was and why it was important. So it was the first real D.I.Y. health restoration book and it stayed that way for many years.

                      By that time I had so many allergies my future wife called me “Bubble Boy”. But I was working on it.

                      I now have no allergies, no meds and all the people I knew who ignored my advice are dead. They ignored my advice because I ignored it myself when out with them. They didn’t see me following my own advice in private. So I kind of killed my friends. I’ve learned that lesson.

                      Most of you here are too young to know how devoid our culture was then of anything to do with nutrition, exercise, illness, health restoration. All of that stuff was completely unknown to the general public and almost completely inaccessible to anyone.

                      You probably know nothing about pyramid power. Look that up. It will give you a great insight as to how lost people were then and again how easy food corruption is to get away with.

                      Health in those days was mostly magic. As primitive as it was, modern medicine and medical science are still not much farther advanced in many ways due mostly to corruption in the food industry. Salt, sugar, milk and grain lobbies made damned sure that research on those topics could not deliver conclusions that would hurt sales or the reputations of any of them.

                      On top of that doctors were considered gods and legislatively they still are. Most of what’s being discussed here has only been publicly available in the last ten years. The stuff you take for granted now got me branded as hypochondriac in the 80s and 90s.
                      When I submitted story about Intermittent Hypoglycaemia to The Toronto Star in a short story contest it was passed over. But then I submitted it to Stephen King and he used it almost word for word in one of his short stories with no credit to me.

                      Then I submitted to the Chief Coroner of Toronto. They agreed with my work but maintained educating the public was a medical responsibility. The College of Physicians an Surgeons of Ontario had no interest in it at all because they didn’t believe hypoglycaemia was real yet and in any case had/have no educational infrastructure. The Insurance Bureau of Canada I ignored because I was still struggling with Hypoglycaemia myself. So nothing worked.

                      The reality is that most people in North America have these problems. The real reason the police didn’t want to know officially was because they were having so many single officer fatalities where cruisers were ending in bridge abutments, in ditches and other kinds of accidents and they could all be traced to coffee and doughnuts. If that got out to the public, the insurance and other payouts such as widows’ pensions over many years would have all been clawed back. Impaired on caffeine and sugar is just as illegal as alcohol. No excuse. But that’s why cops don’t test for it. It bites both ways.

                      So my work is still right and still buried.

                      As of right now, it’s still taboo to say “shit” on the air. If that isn’t hypocritical I don’t know what is. Not saying it is the root of all evil where health care is concerned. That’s the back story behind the corruption in the food industry. Until shit can be freely discussed corruption won’t be beaten. It’s absence allows the dance the food industry uses to obscure straight forward research.

                    6. “Since I adopted this diet my health has improved to being better than at any time since I was about 7 years old and I’m 70 now.”
                      – — – –

                      Except that, from what I’ve read about your current health, it’s really not all that great. Why are you getting colds in the first place? I think you said they used to hang around for months (if I read that correctly). I can’t remember the last time I had even a mini-cold. Sounds like your immune system is (still?) out of whack. Lots of stress in your life can be a factor too, I think.


                    7. When your tonsils and adenoids are removed when you’re too young your immune system hasn’t had time to develop. My immune system had barely gotten started when they were taken out the first time. I don’t remember that or the next two times they were taken out but I still remember the last two times. Tonsils and adenoids are the organs that primarily deal with respiratory attacks. So no I have no immunity but not because of food in that sense.

                      The last two times my tonsils were burned out with radium treatment – 20 minutes per session. I still remember the details clearly. The operations were done annually until I was 7.

                    8. Anyway, the reason I can use my body to track mucus loads from grain and dairy is because I’m alone for long periods of time. So when I do have a mucus problem I know exactly why, when and what caused it.

                      I also know where the burden is going to show up in my body. I’m a great guinea pig. Much better than any of the clinical trial subjects can ever be.

                    9. John

                      Your opinions about dietary collagen do not appear to accord with current scientific knowledge, although they do match what plenty of loons on the internet and people selling collagen supplements claim.

                      ‘collagen is a protein: a triple-helix, long chain protein. It’s the product of an elaborate synthesis process that occurs throughout the body. When we consume collagen, usually in the form of food, the long chain proteins are broken down during digestion to their original amino acids. Only then can they be absorbed. Once absorbed, these amino acids are available as building blocks to support collagen synthesis throughout the body. So from a dietary perspective, your body doesn’t care (and can’t tell) if you ate a collagen supplement, cheese, quinoa, beef, or chick peas — they’re all sources of protein, and indistinguishable by the time they hit the bloodstream. The body doesn’t treat amino acids derived from collagen any differently than any other protein source. For this reason, the idea that collagen supplementation can be an effective treatment for joint pain, osteoarthritis, or any other condition, is highly implausible, if not impossible in principle.’

                    10. I don’t care what the science or the loons say. I walk with no pain and MRI evidence with collagen and I’m on crutches without it. Would you like to argue it’s my wife about it? Four different doctors who cannot explain it? My handicapped sign I won’t need until my hip replacement this fall? Being a skeptic is one thing but you’re crossing a line here.

                    11. “Being a skeptic is one thing but you’re crossing a line here.”

                      If referring to what the scientific understanding is, rather than simply accepting your frankly rather unusual beliefs. is ‘crossing the line’ then yes I am guilty.

                      While it is possible that you are an unsung, eccentric genius who knows things that the worldwide scientific community does not, there are other perhaps more probable explanations for your beliefs.

                    12. You’re right Tom. Trying to find those other reasons is why we’re talking. I would love to be able to eat Black Forest cake again. My wife is a fantastic cook but here I am eating salads with collagen and Tahini sauce as dressings.

                      When I met my wife she was one of only two perfectly healthy people I’ve ever met. I’ve watched that perfect health deteriorate bite by bite knowing exactly what would happen before it happened.

                      Due to my love of grain and dairy and my decades long ability to walk my own talk she has for years refused to believe despite all of my predictions about what would happen to her coming true.

                      So now she believes but unwillingly only because she has never seen me be wrong (except in math which I last passed when I was 12). You know how that works and thank you very much for that. The numbers still don’t change the reality though.

                      So the conundrum is that I don’t want to be right. I want there to be a magical explanation so I can eat junk food again with apparent impunity.

                      I’m hoping you people can prove me wrong.

                    13. Prove you wrong, L-W John? With your (lousy!) health history — including a recent hernia operation and a hip replacement scheduled for the fall — who’d want to give you any advice?

                      Keep doing what you’re doing until “something” tells you to try another tactic. In other words, as of now, if it ain’t broke….

                    14. “That is not an accurate definition of paste”

                      Have you considered the possibility that the dictionaries are correct and that you are mistaken?

                    15. Of course. I’ve discussed my info with doctors too. No one disagrees. Not the stuff you made me think of though. That solid.

              3. A stool dumped by a grain eater is generally golden, fluffy and completely unnatural. You know it’s unnatural because afterwards you have to use toilet paper or a bidet.
                That puts us in the position of having to clear cut entire forests to get the pulp to make toilet paper.
                Does that sound right to you? We are the only species on earth that needs toilet paper.

                But 14,000 B.G. we didn’t. How do I know that?

                When I went on the real Paleo Diet my stool changed from grain gold to forest green. The texture went from fluffy to smooth and torpedo shaped.
                Transit time went from between 7 – 14 seconds to sub 7 seconds. No residue at all.

                On the correct diet we don’t need bidets or toilet paper.

                You know I’m right because our ancestors did not have time for the newspaper or a book. Squatting in those days meant you were motionless and defenceless.
                The idea was to poop and run. If you took too long you’d be something else’s lunch and a hot steaming pile.

                Now, do you suppose I had references for that? No. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that a leisurely dump could be fatal.
                And I’ve gone on and off the Paleo Diet to know how a stool composed of leaves is going to look even with meat in it.
                We are all from the same planet and if our systems are functioning properly, we all shit the same. We are not all different as doctors have been saying hundreds of years.

                The laws of physics were not set aside so little Sally could have unique bowel movements.

                    1. What kind of a cockamamie reply is that? First you’re implying that people who eat grains “shit yellow,” and now you’re trotting in some carrots? (Is this guy for real?)

                      So, how many times a day do YOU go? 15 or 20? (For me, at least once a day, often two or three times.)

                      If your SHIT book is going to scold the world because we don’t run to the terlit after every bite we put in our mouth, am sorry, but I do not see a best seller in your future.

                    2. No one exists on a mono diet. I eat a wide variety of coloured vegetables. At the time I was adding those veggies to my my oatmeal. But then I was diagnosed with prediabetes and got a FreeStyle Libre blood monitor. Those things allow you to see clearly what individual foods do to your blood sugar.

                      So goodbye carrots. Goodbye parsnips and eventually goodbye oatmeal.

                      Steel cut oats don’t drive blood sugar up so much but I’m not hanging around for an hour to watch it cook. Besides that, any form of oatmeal drives blood sugar up. That was the end of me and grain. I’ve tried different types of bread since but all forms of grain put blood sugar up. Without it I’m perfectly normal. I’m careful with carrots too.

                      My body is a perfect indicator of mucus/glue loads in any foods. I have zero tolerance for it. So I’m a pretty good indicator of the consequences of ingesting foods that are mucus when mixed with saliva.

                  1. John proclaimed:

                    “A stool dumped by a grain eater is generally golden, fluffy and completely unnatural.”
                    – – – – –

                    John still hasn’t answered my question. I asked where he got such a notion (unless his own dump looks like that….in which case, he’d better get himself checked for liver problems).

                    But then he blathered on about carrots and other veggies (which are not grains). It seems his mind wanders. Either that, or he just couldn’t come up with a convincing enough answer and chose to ignore it. Oh well. :-/

                1. I don’t think that I have ever discussed my bowel movements. However, I don’t believe that I have a problem in that department.

                  Note that I have already posted references to two studies which showed that Paleolithic humans consumed grains (and tubers).

  7. I know our WFPB and physicians committee for responsible medicine doctors are very busy these days but wouldn’t it be great if they could influence the schools of medicine to change curriculum to mandate one full week of WFPB nutrition or more. If so maybe responsible physicians (WFPB) could earn more revenue these days by going to the source and lecturing. Similar to treating the cause of disease rather than the symptoms.
    If physicians were educated on causal disease states coming from food they could not pretend to do no harm as per what their Hippocratic oath dictates. Just saying.

    1. Doctors are trained to believe that food has no impact one way or the other. Since that’s the case, they’re falling farther and farther behind.

      1. There are multiple national and professional medical guidelines which make a point of emphasising the important role of diet in chronic disease prevention eg

        ‘Dietary patterns associated with CVD mortality include—sugar, low-calorie sweeteners, high-carbohydrate diets, low-carbohydrate diets, refined grains, trans fat, saturated fat, sodium, red meat, and processed red meat (such as bacon, salami, ham, hot dogs, and sausage). All adults should consume a healthy plant-based or Mediterranean-like diet high in vegetables, fruits, nuts, whole grains, lean vegetable or animal protein (preferably fish), and vegetable fiber, which has been shown to lower the risk of all-cause mortality compared to control or standard diet. Longstanding dietary patterns that focus on low intake of carbohydrates and a high intake of animal fat and protein as well as high carbohydrate diets are associated with increased cardiac and noncardiac mortality. The increased availability of affordable, palatable, and high-calorie foods along with decreased physical demands of many jobs have fueled the epidemic of obesity and the consequent increases in hypertension and T2DM.’

        1. Too bad the general public isn’t aware of it. I still don’t agree with grains as part of a health restoration diet which is what I was talking about originally. And no matter how anyone slices it, the main grain is and has been for the last 14,000 years been some form of wheat and wheat is 80% glue.

          Glue was not on our menu 300,000 years ago. It was not on the menu of more primitive hominids either – at least not in sufficient quantities for us to detect.
          Glue is not a substance the human body or any other body evolved to metabolize with the notable exceptions of rodents, some , birds, some insects, some microbes and some fungoids.

          Rodents manage to eat grain and metabolize it because they have anatomical features we don’t.

          They have a much larger caecum for dealing with the cellulose, they have teeth that grow continuously with prevents gum disease. But even they cannot metabolize glue.

          To deal with that, they have to excrete it then eat dried feces dropped by others of their kind or their own. We don’t do that and neither does anything else.

          Countless studies have been and continue to be done on rats and mice because they’re so similar to us. But rare and mice don’t become constipated eating foods they evolved to eat. We do.

          In the normal way, constipation does not occur in a person with a healthy intestinal tract when eating whole grains. But constipated people are far from normal people who have never been constipated.

          Normal in the 21st century America is constipated. So to distinguish between this new normal and real normal we have to say natural.

          A chronically constipated person is not going to return to natural eating what passes for whole wheat bread in America. That’s the fraud. Whole wheat bread sold in American grocery stores is not whole wheat. It contains vestigial traces of whole wheat, often stuck on the upper crust. The rest is brown refined flour.

          So back to the studies Deb cited: what was the bread used in the studies? If that bread used in the studies had come from Publix it could not have generated the numbers recorded in the study.

          Either way the studies were intentionally misleading and thus fake.

          Then as I stated earlier, the results were published as percentages without a base to compare against so the percentages were meaningless. Information presented that way is always without exception a coverup of some sort to drive an agenda whether your talking food, politics or sales.

          In fact if you tried to present a sales report at GM or Toyota the way these two studies were delivered you’d be fired on the spot for wasting everyone’s time and clearly attempting to deceive the audience.

          The fact that scientists get away with this nonsense as a matter of course defines how unaccountable and fraudulent a lot of food and health based science really is.

          1. “….. and wheat is 80% glue.”
            – – – –

            And the other 20% is ground-up cockroach droppings. Prove me wrong! :-)

            1. No problem:

              Gliadins and glutenins represent 75–80% of the proteins in wheat.


              Gluten (from Latin gluten, “glue”) is a group of proteins, called prolamins and glutelins, which occur with starch in the endosperm of various cereal grains. … Prolamins in wheat are called gliadins; in barley, hordeins; in rye, secalins; and in oats, avenins.


              There you go.

              Thanks to people with gluten sensitivities, most commercial glues no longer contain gluten but wallpaper paste still does and the cheaper forms of grout for tile work. The glue on the back of stamps and envelopes used to be made from wheat.

              So if gluten can stick tiles to your washroom walls, imagine what it can do to you.

            1. Well Tom, you nailed it in a way neither of us imagined. You were right, my math was faulty. But I never give up so your comments made me think harder and it payed of spectacularly. But not that I’m going to print the results here. Let’s just say that my claims about Whole Grains are correct beyond my wildest dreams. That does not at all mean that what Dr. Greger has said about whole grains has been totally wrong but there is a completely different dimension that really has not been taken fully into account by anyone UNTIL NOW as the good doctor likes to emphasize.

              So I’ll leave it there for the moment to ensure I don’t scoop myself on my own book.

              It’s been fun talking to people who actually can carry on an intelligent conversation on this subject. Thank you very much.

              1. John mounts his trusty horse Ol’ Trusty and saunters off into the sunset. Guitar music softens as the curtains slowly close. The theater lights turn on and the audience claps enthusiastically.

                Very soon, John appears on the stage from behind the curtain — leading Ol’ Trusty along with him. Ol’ Trusty proceeds to take a dump right on the stage. A porter quickly appears with a shovel and bucket, and Ol’ Trusty is led away. John takes several more bows, as the audience continues to cheer wildly.

                And so it goes.

                1. I love it. But Old Trusty is actually Old Rusty. It isn’t a horse. It’s car. A Rebel Machine. You can google that. A true American Icon which is also weird since I’m Canadian and it’s an icon that can’t live without me in some respects. I even do health restoration for those particular cars. No thoroughly rusty Rebel Machine can be restored without me. Check it out, enjoy it.

          2. “the main grain is and has been for the last 14,000 years been some form of wheat”

            No it hasn’t. Some cultures/societies/ethnic groups have been using rice, millet. oats, barley or maize for thousand of year with no wheat.

            And gluten makes up about 16% of whole wheat bread by weight, not 80%.

            And low or no gluten diets may even be unhealthy – at least in Westernised societies – eg


            1. I’m not talking about that. I was trying to avoid writing a book since I’m being accused of being long winded. If you like we can talk about those others too at great length if you like. I’ll take more time and cite everything too.
              Sorry for wasting your time.

    2. Since there is no broccoli lobby with a commercial interest in the nutritional value of broccoli, it begs the question, does anyone?
      As we move closer to universal health insurance and and a greater government role in health care, I would submit that the government would have the greatest commercial interest in promoting the health benefits of a WHPB diet.
      Instead of paying the “sick care” industry primarily for treating illnesses, most of which are life style caused, shift the focus to real health care and pay the industry for keeping people well.
      Annual check-ups could monitor the basic markers of overall wellbeing and the primary care physicians could be rewarded by the improving and continuing health of their patients. Patients could be rewarded by some form of credit for any out of pocket expense.
      Since the financial reward for care would gradually shift from disease treating specialist to primary care physicians, the market would adjust accordingly.
      Perhaps the pharmaceutical industry of the future could be the farmers who produce the most nutritious food.

      1. As much as what you are saying makes sense Michael, virtually no one in any government has that kind of knowledge to make that sort of legislative change.

        The people who will finally make it happen will be the people cultivated on sites like this one who finally get elected. That i s the real value of sites such as these.

      2. Michael Cassidy,

        We have a Medical Industrial Complex; it is based upon the notion that the absence of disease is a definition of health. But it would not survive without sick people. So the goal, I think, is to keep people sick but alive long enough to need lifelong medical treatments and procedures and drugs. That’s my opinion.

        But the history of how we got here is cogently described in “Code Blue,” by Michael Magee, MD, currently a medical historian. I had the privilege of hearing a series of 4 lectures by Dr. Magee in which he outlined the information in his book. All very depressing. Though he does offer possible solutions.

        We really should have universal health care, with the emphasis on HEALTH, not the ABSENCE OF — OR EVEN BETTER, CONTINUING TREATMENT OF — DISEASE AND/OR DISABILITY. That encompasses nutrition and exercise, but also affordable housing, decent eduction, jobs, improved safety nets and communities, and more. Other countries manage to do a better job than we do.

        1. Thanks for the reference to Dr. Magee’s book. I’ll check it out. Colin Campbell’s book “Whole” does a good job of describing the medical industrial complex as well, and the dangers it presents to our culture’s health. He also explains why making a WFPB diet the norm is so challenging and difficult.

          1. Michael Cassidy,

            Thanks for the recommendation of Colin Campbell’s book; I am very interested in the question of why making a WFPB diet the norm is so challenging and difficult. I will look for it. I hope he offers some suggestions that might make it easier. I’ve never had any success. Or if I have, it’s incremental.

  8. “What if we compared two groups of older women, both getting around six grams of grain fiber a day, but one group mostly from whole grains and the other mostly from refined grains?”

    Oh, Dr. Greger! Refined grains contain NO fiber; it has been powdered. All the easier for the stomach to turn it into sugar and store it as inflammatory fat!

    1. If you keep reading Navy, you will see that for the trial they added supplemental fiber to the refined grains group so that both groups were equal in fober content. The point was that the fiber in whole foods works, and the supplemental fiber did not have the same result.

  9. “Whoever is content with the world, and who profits from its lack of justice, does not want to change it.” -Friedrich Durrenmatt

    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair

    “We live in imaginary, virtual worlds created by corporations that profit from our deception.” – Chris Hedges

  10. So three different studies were sent to me by Deb to show that eating grain protects against the onset of degenerative disease, the one shown via gum disease:

    US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
    Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jun;83(6):1395-400.
    Whole-grain and fiber intakes and periodontitis risk in men.
    Merchant AT1, Pitiphat W, Franz M, Joshipura KJ.
    Author information

    Diabetes and hyperglycemia increase periodontitis risk, severity, and extent. Increased whole-grain and fiber intakes are associated with improved insulin sensitivity and may therefore affect periodontitis risk.
    The objective was to examine the associations between whole-grain and fiber intakes and periodontitis risk.
    We prospectively followed 34,160 male US health professionals aged 40-75 y at the outset. We updated medical and lifestyle information biennially with questionnaires and diet every 4 y by using a validated food-frequency questionnaire. We excluded men reporting periodontitis, myocardial infarction, stroke, and hypercholesterolemia before 1986 and those with incomplete dietary data. All diabetics were excluded. Periodontitis was determined by a report of professionally diagnosed disease and validated by a diagnosis of periodontitis by a periodontist from a blinded review of radiographs.
    Men in the highest quintile of whole-grain intake were 23% less likely to get periodontitis than were those in the lowest quintile (multivariate RR: 0.77; 95% CI: 0.66, 0.89; P for trend < 0.001) after adjustment for age, smoking, body mass index, alcohol intake, physical activity, and total energy intake. Periodontitis was not associated with refined-grain intake (multivariate RR comparing extreme quintiles of intake: 1.04; 95% CI: 0.89, 1.23; P for trend = 0.37). Cereal fiber was inversely related to periodontitis risk (multivariate RR comparing extreme quintiles of intake: 0.85; 95% CI: 0.73, 0.99; P for trend = 0.03), but the association was not significant after adjustment for whole-grain intake.
    Increasing whole grain in the diet without increasing total energy intake may reduce periodontitis risk.

    When you do the numbers, 23% or 44,408 men may have been protected. But 78,568 of men were not. So in most cases, eating whole wheat and a high fibre diet is not going to protect most people from eating the glue in whole grain or refined grain. So really speaking, Whole grain protection is a myth spun by people who believe in percentages by never bother to take the extra step and figure out what the percentages really represent.

    If I were to tell you on this site that you were going to jump in the ocean infested in that area with Mako sharks known to enjoy a tasty human from time to time and you would be wearing a special suit that would only protect 1/3 of you maybe. The rest would be eaten. For sure. Would you jump in?

    That is the risk you take when you eat grain. Certainly there are nutritional benefits. For a while. Eventually those benefits begin to erode but not so as you can notice them. You might die of an accident sooner. If not you will not only die from consuming grain, you will die over a period of decades in declining health that would not be the case if you refrained from grain (and dairy and sugar). The real Paleo Diet in other words.

    1. Hi John Newell, thanks for your comment. The information that is provided by Dr Greger and team at this website are based on the research that are being carried out on the topic of nutrition and life style. Hopefully you understand that food and nutrition information Dr Greger provides are based on evidenced based nutrition. Each individual has to listen to their own body and hopefully choose the right food that is whole and agrees with them. There are a lot of scientific based evidence that whole food plant based nutrition has great therapeutic power. Researchers have shown that a more plant-based diet may help prevent, treat, or reverse some of our leading causes of death, including heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and high blood pressure. Interventional studies of plant-based diets have shown, for example, 90 percent reductions in angina attacks within just a few weeks.

      1. Thank you for your response but I know all of that. l am impressed with Dr. Greger’s work or I would not be here. On the other hand I do not agree that whole grains are as good as science attempts to make them seem like a sound option.

        If you have nothing else to eat, you’re going to eat grain and like it.

        If you want to restore your health, grain will not be on the menu if you are serious.

        Evidence based science where nutrition, grain, dairy and sugar are concerned is not the same as the fossil evidence.

        No one on modern grain is as strong as Paleo man. Or as healthy. Including dental health achieved without toothbrushes, toothpaste or dentists.

        Each time I see a study that purportedly reveals the latest and greatest about grains, I find there is always something crucial left out. Three studies were sent to me by Deb. In my opinion, all three were fraudulent or the people involved in the studies were incredibly stupid. One or the other. They were nothing special as studies go. Typical in fact. All three added to my position.

        The link you sent me is revealing. There is a photo of a nutritious assortment of foods. No grain.

        Sacred cows die hardest.

    2. John,

      It isn’t saying that every single man in the study got gum disease.

      I believe there was a paragraph before that where it was talking about in America something like 49% of people get gum disease and they are saying that: “Men in the highest quintile of whole-grain intake were 23% less likely to get periodontitis than were those in the lowest quintile.”

      49% of the whole population would be expected before the whole grains get factored in.

      It isn’t saying that 77% of the whole grain eaters got gum disease.

      It is saying that compared to the people who didn’t eat as many grains, the ones who ate whole grains were 23% less likely to get gum disease.

      So, it is the people who don’t eat grains that would be the ones in the water with the most sharks.

      1. But you are describing the wrong type of bread and you are describing cakes and things like that and you are VERY RIGHT to not want the things you don’t want to eat.

        For example, you aren’t saying, “Most people are buying bread which isn’t in the 5 to 1 fiber ratio” or “They aren’t buying bread like Ezekiel bread” as part of your argument. Ezekiel bread is made from sprouted whole grains, not flour at all. I am not sure if that is the type of bread which the Adventists eat.

        It may well be.

        I say it because I spent decades in Christian cultures and Ezekiel bread is made from ingredients in Biblical passages. Christians who tend to be whole Bible focused like that and tend to eat Ezekiel bread. Christians who are not Bible focused did not tend to eat it BUT they are switching and that is because of the various nutrition teachings.

        Whole Food Plant Based is not the only diet which suggests that people use Ezekiel bread.

      2. Everyone is in the water. Some people just don’t taste that good to a shark for unknown reasons.

        Not everyone gets gum disease at the same rate due to other factors not mentioned.

        For instance if you drink water as you eat the sticky factor is dissolved. The constipation factor is reduced quite a lot and the cleanliness of the mouth is improved immensely.

        If you don’t drink as you eat and enjoy desert regularly your chances of gum disease soars. Your mouth is dangerous and other Ill-health events are in your future. Even a high vegetable intake diet won’t save you and could make things even worse and adding fruit snacks to that is more trouble

  11. The bottom line is that whole grain and in particular wheat is the foundation of fraud in food. For decades scientists have been using partial numbers, percentages and wishful thinking to misinterpret the benefits of wheat consumption while ignoring the harm hidden in those same percentages.

    None of the studies are evidence. They are all speculation. The evidence is in the fossil record. More evidence is in the work by Dr. Weston Price in his own lab studies and in subsequent follow up work by Dr. Stephen Lin in his ground breaking book, the Dental Diet.

    Both acknowledge the difference in ancient dairy and grains that constitute the Neolithic diet.

    So far without access to natural, live milk and butter, grain has never been shown to be a safe choice as a human food over the long term of a person’s life.

    Prior to grain, men and women were far stronger than any human living today. Their bones were heavier and the evidence of those bones show that women then were stronger than the strongest man today.

    Nothing we can do with modern grains or dairy can match that. You cannot restore health and recover from degenerative diseases with those foods. The healing process simply does not start.

    Unless you are dying, 100% of the time when grain, dairy and sugar are eliminated from the diet, (assuming no substance abuse such as alcohol or drugs) your body immediately goes into recovery mode to restore your body to what it should be.

    Here on this site you can watch the Okinawan Diet where people in that area of Japan frequently live to be 100 years old. Virtually no grain or dairy in their diets. They lived longer than the Adventists who are not consuming a diet available to other culture on a steady basis. Even so, those people ate little to no meat. They stayed small.

    I switched to the Paleo diet. It worked for me and is still working. It will work on you too if you let it. Your body knows how to be healthy if you let it. Putting glue or paste from grain into your body does not help.

    I haven’t mentioned meat but the fact is most of our ancestors ate meat. Different than most of us have access to today. No fat. Good organs, no chemicals or hormones. Same with fish. But now we have farmed fish. They are being domesticated the same as cows – thoroughly unhealthy source of meat. They are being fed the same as us – lots of grain. As a result, those fish aren’t as healthy or strong as wild fish for the same reasons.

    I think the difference in meat now explains the results cited by Dr. Greger in recent studies that show deterioration within hours of consumption.

    For those of you who have never eaten wild meat, the difference between wild and domesticated meat is profound and impossible to duplicate. Organ meats and all other tissues including brain and intestines were eaten by Paleo man with no discernible harm based on skeletal evidence. Quite the contrary.

    No doubt grains were on the menu in vestigial amounts.

    But almost all the evidence we have is from people who mostly lived in caves while their contemporaries were wandering around as nomads. Most likely they used caves mostly when someone was sick and couldn’t travel. I doubt most of our ancestors used caves or there would be way more remains. So they walked a lot and lived in temporary shelters just as aboriginals still do.

    And just like contemporary aboriginals, their elders stay healthy and fit into old age without grain or dairy. Canadian Aboriginals including Inuit have shown a remarkable decline in health when forced to eat the European diet that includes grain and dairy. Diabetes is rampant. Whole grain or any grain is not doing them any favours.

    1. I don’t put more credence in fossil records than in human studies.

      We have more and more and more people living into their 90’s and 100’s than probably ever before.

      I feel almost the opposite of you. Fossils allow people to make up theories. Not disagreeing with all anthropology and analysis, but we can go back and forth about diet once we start looking at the stomach content of the mummies. All the ones I have heard of had grains in them. That doesn’t mean that I have heard about all of them, but the Iceman had grains and some meat and the tollund man had just grains. Not even meat or vegetables.


      I could keep searching but the whole point is once we start down that road it is gonna be a long night.

      1. Also, you seem to have a concept that Wheat is the only Whole Grain and that Paleo is the only diet, which doesn’t think it is a good idea to not eat bread.

        You must live in a town with a very small grocery store if wheat is the only whole grain you have and if bread and cake and cookies are the only way you have seen grains used.

        Do they do grain bowls where you live?

      2. It’s well known that the Egyptians were the first civilization we know of to adopt the western diet and thus accrue all of its harsh ill health events. Bad teeth and all. Those I’ve seen personally at the Toronto Museum.

        The iceman was middle-aged, right around the time gum disease usually starts. In his case he had cavities, gum disease and grain in his stomach from his last meal 5,000 years ago. Sort of a cause and effect diorama.

        I could not find anything about the teeth for Tollund man or fo the others listed. Apparently the examiners didn’t open Tollund man’s mouth or x-ray his teeth. At least if they did, it’s not public yet.

        Osterby from AD 1 -100 a rare time frame, was toothless but had no body either.

        So your links have strengthened my position.

      3. Anything at all can be the basis of a theory Deb. An adult’s skull from 20,000 years ago with perfect teeth is no theory.

        As for lifespans, that’s fuel for theories but here we do know one thing for sure: most Paleo people did not die in caves. The people who died in caves were sick or fatally injured in some ways. Caves were hospitals mostly I’d say with revolving populations according to need. The same thing happens in times of drought when predators and herbivores gather round a waterhole without the herbivores being eaten. In extreme need, every animal shared within and across species.

  12. I think most people here know that wheat contains gluten, and that the gluten-intolerant should avoid it. Same with barley and rye. Quinoa is considered a seed, not a grain, but it makes this list:


    I alternate with one or more of these items for my hot cereal. I cook the steel-cut oats rather than rolled, although do have the rolled on hand.

    John said: “It will work on you too if you let it. Your body knows how to be healthy if you let it.”

    Thanks John, but my body has been “speaking” to (with?) me for many moons. No cold or flu since the winter of 2000. I take no meds or drugs of any kind. Never had a weight problem, and I exercise every day, etc. I figure I’m doing fine so far.

    But I’m happy that your way of eating works for you.

      1. Even if I’d started at age three, it would not have worked for me and I’m not lactose or gluten intolerant. What you are doing, I wish I could do. But I have found my level. I have no immunity from colds but I’ve never had the flu. I’m a barometer for any sort of mucus in food. I can’t eat any kind of grain without snoring that night. My wife always knows. That’s how fast the mucus load impacts not just me but anyone. I used to have sleep apnea. Not any more. My colds used to last months. Now they’re down to three days and even then I only get them if I’ve cheated and had something made of grain while run down.

        Keep in mind that our bodies already have all the mucus they need. We secrete many different kinds of mucus according to what is needed and where it’s needed. When you add more by intaking grain or dairy, you’re adding a mucus load you did not evolve to metabolize. You may not notice the impact now but eventually you will. You cannot beat physics or chemistry and there is no free lunch or getting away with anything forever no matter what the researchers think their work shows.

        Keep that in mind. Even though you think you’re fine with your rolled oats, the human body cannot process the mucus/paste when you ingest it. In your case, the levels are very low. Regardless, plenty of people have lived to be over a hundred who enjoyed various forms of grain. But generally, they’re not doing that in their later years.

        At present, you and people like you are almost an anomaly because you’re so few in number.

        So if you can accept that I’m right or even partly right, that puts a completely different perspective on corruption in the food industry doesn’t it?

        These same arguments took place when tobacco was exposed as carcinogenic. The industry and the smokers could not face or accept the truth and the battles are still raging in courts today.

        Then came salt. That was a battle that was short and sweet. Their ball of yarn started to unravel in the 70s when Marietta Whittesey’s book KILLER SALT became the first real health block buster in 1977.

        The higher ups in the industry were just as vulnerable as anyone else and they’re no longer with us to discuss it. We won that one but the the processed food industry did an end run and today, processed foods are loaded with the salt people think they’re avoiding.

        Then came sugar. Unlike salt, the sugar industry was vicious and any doctor fighting the sugar industry soon lost their license to practice. But science caught up with sugar. That battle is being fought now too. You would think most people would get the essence of that but every grocery store has more sugar in the aisles than it did ten years ago.

        The dairy industry was running on the myth that milk makes strong bones until the Notmilk Man George Plimpton came along and popped their bubble. When he put up his home page https://www.notmilk.com in the 90s the milk industry eventually hired him to shut him up. It didn’t work. But in 2019, Canada dropped milk and milk products from the list of recommended food groups in the CANADA FOOD GUIDE. Progress was being made. Lots further to go.

        So far the grain industry has come through unscathed because everyone loves toast and oatmeal. But the bottom line there is that the health issues related to grain consumption are real and the monolith is going to be put under the microscope just as the others have been. This will be bigger because it’s such a huge global economy and the staff of life has been the staff of life for so long.

        I can hardly wait to see what Dr. Greger comes up with when he finally gets his head around this. He will too. He’s too smart not to.

  13. Dr Greger, as a lifetime student of nutrition, your central paragraph today articulated and condensed my thoughts on this subject so cogently, and moves the bar you set even higher. I have had asbestos-caused mesothelioma for 5 years since surgical diagnosis (the only reliable way) despite the 1 year average survival. I would like to share with you my take on nutrition and exercise, which is an attachment for which I see no option in this reply window.
    Keep up your great work, and kind regards, Basil

  14. Long-winded John mentioned getting his tonsils out at a very young age, and etc. Which made me wonder how many people at this joint still have theirs.

    I never get any sore throats, nor did I as a kid. Never had them removed, either; I still have the little suckers. Both siblings, however, had theirs taken out. My sister continues to get sore throats, so having hers removed didn’t do her a lot of good, it seems.


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