Flashback Friday: What’s the “Natural” Human Diet?

Flashback Friday: What’s the “Natural” Human Diet?
4.68 (93.51%) 74 votes

What can our nutrient requirements, metabolism, and physiology tell us about what we should be eating?


There are three broad theories about evolution and food. One is that humans have become adapted to the products of the agricultural revolution over the last 10,000 years. Two is the paleo view, that 10,000 years, that’s a blink of an evolutionary eye, and that humans have adapted to paleolithic diets with lots of lean meat. But why stop there? The last 200,000 years, as mostly Stone Age humans, represent just the last 1% of 20 or so million years we’ve been evolving, since our common great ape ancestor.

During our truly formative years, the first 90% of our existence, one might say, our nutritional requirements reflect an ancestral past in which we ate mostly leaves, flowers, and fruits—with some bugs thrown in, thanks to wormy apples, to get our vitamin B12.

For this reason, another approach that might improve our understanding of the best dietary practices for modern humans is to focus attention not on the past, but rather on the here and now—that is, on study of the foods eaten by our closest living relatives, given the bulk of our ancestral diets, and the lack of evidence supporting any notable diet-related changes in human nutrient requirements, metabolism, or physiology, compared to our fellow great apes.

This could explain why fruits and vegetables are not only just so good for us, but vital to our survival. We’re actually one of the few species so adapted to a plant-based diet, that we could actually die from not eating fruits and vegetables—from the vitamin C-deficiency disease, scurvy. Most other animals just make their own vitamin C. But why would our body waste all that effort when we evolved hanging out in the trees, just eating fruits and veggies all day long?

It’s presumably not a coincidence that the few other mammals unable to synthesize their own vitamin C (like guinea pigs, some bunny rabbits, and fruit bats) are all, like us great apes, strongly herbivorous. Even during the Stone Age, we may have been getting up to ten times more vitamin C than we get today. And ten times more dietary fiber, based on essentially rehydrated human fossilized feces. The question is: are these incredibly high nutrient intakes simply an unavoidable by-product of eating whole, plant foods all the time, or might they actually be serving some important function, like antioxidant defense?

Plants create antioxidants to defend their own structures against free radicals. The human body must defend itself against the same types of pro-oxidants. And so, we have also evolved an array of amazing antioxidant enzymes, which is effective, but not infallible. Free radicals can breach our defenses, and cause damage that accumulates with age, leading to a variety of disease-causing and, ultimately fatal, changes. That’s where plants may come in.

Plant-based, antioxidant-rich foods traditionally formed the major part of our diet. And so, we didn’t have to evolve that great of an antioxidant system. We could just let the plants in our diet pull some of the weight, like the-not-bothering-to-make-vitamin-C-thing—let the fruit do it. Using plants as a crutch may well have relieved the pressure for further evolutionary development of our own defenses, meaning we’ve become dependent on getting lots of plant foods in our diet, and when we don’t, we may suffer adverse health consequences.

Even during the Stone Age, this may not have been a problem. Only in recent history did we start giving up on whole plant foods. Even modern day paleo and low carb advocates may be eating more vegetables than those on standard Western diets. There’s this perception that low carbers are chowing down on the three Bs: beef, butter, and bacon, but that’s just a small minority. What they are eating more of is salad. The #1 thing an internet low carb community said they were eating more of was vegetables—great!

If people want to cut their carb intake by swapping junk food for vegetables, that’s not the problem. The concern is the shift to animal-sourced foods. Greater adherence to a low carb diet high in animal sources of fat and protein was associated with higher mortality, for example, after a heart attack—meaning they cut their lives short.

If there’s one takeaway from our studies of ancestral diets, perhaps it’s that diets based largely on plant foods promote health and longevity.

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio contributed by Katie Schloer.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image thanks to Pascal via flickr.

There are three broad theories about evolution and food. One is that humans have become adapted to the products of the agricultural revolution over the last 10,000 years. Two is the paleo view, that 10,000 years, that’s a blink of an evolutionary eye, and that humans have adapted to paleolithic diets with lots of lean meat. But why stop there? The last 200,000 years, as mostly Stone Age humans, represent just the last 1% of 20 or so million years we’ve been evolving, since our common great ape ancestor.

During our truly formative years, the first 90% of our existence, one might say, our nutritional requirements reflect an ancestral past in which we ate mostly leaves, flowers, and fruits—with some bugs thrown in, thanks to wormy apples, to get our vitamin B12.

For this reason, another approach that might improve our understanding of the best dietary practices for modern humans is to focus attention not on the past, but rather on the here and now—that is, on study of the foods eaten by our closest living relatives, given the bulk of our ancestral diets, and the lack of evidence supporting any notable diet-related changes in human nutrient requirements, metabolism, or physiology, compared to our fellow great apes.

This could explain why fruits and vegetables are not only just so good for us, but vital to our survival. We’re actually one of the few species so adapted to a plant-based diet, that we could actually die from not eating fruits and vegetables—from the vitamin C-deficiency disease, scurvy. Most other animals just make their own vitamin C. But why would our body waste all that effort when we evolved hanging out in the trees, just eating fruits and veggies all day long?

It’s presumably not a coincidence that the few other mammals unable to synthesize their own vitamin C (like guinea pigs, some bunny rabbits, and fruit bats) are all, like us great apes, strongly herbivorous. Even during the Stone Age, we may have been getting up to ten times more vitamin C than we get today. And ten times more dietary fiber, based on essentially rehydrated human fossilized feces. The question is: are these incredibly high nutrient intakes simply an unavoidable by-product of eating whole, plant foods all the time, or might they actually be serving some important function, like antioxidant defense?

Plants create antioxidants to defend their own structures against free radicals. The human body must defend itself against the same types of pro-oxidants. And so, we have also evolved an array of amazing antioxidant enzymes, which is effective, but not infallible. Free radicals can breach our defenses, and cause damage that accumulates with age, leading to a variety of disease-causing and, ultimately fatal, changes. That’s where plants may come in.

Plant-based, antioxidant-rich foods traditionally formed the major part of our diet. And so, we didn’t have to evolve that great of an antioxidant system. We could just let the plants in our diet pull some of the weight, like the-not-bothering-to-make-vitamin-C-thing—let the fruit do it. Using plants as a crutch may well have relieved the pressure for further evolutionary development of our own defenses, meaning we’ve become dependent on getting lots of plant foods in our diet, and when we don’t, we may suffer adverse health consequences.

Even during the Stone Age, this may not have been a problem. Only in recent history did we start giving up on whole plant foods. Even modern day paleo and low carb advocates may be eating more vegetables than those on standard Western diets. There’s this perception that low carbers are chowing down on the three Bs: beef, butter, and bacon, but that’s just a small minority. What they are eating more of is salad. The #1 thing an internet low carb community said they were eating more of was vegetables—great!

If people want to cut their carb intake by swapping junk food for vegetables, that’s not the problem. The concern is the shift to animal-sourced foods. Greater adherence to a low carb diet high in animal sources of fat and protein was associated with higher mortality, for example, after a heart attack—meaning they cut their lives short.

If there’s one takeaway from our studies of ancestral diets, perhaps it’s that diets based largely on plant foods promote health and longevity.

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio contributed by Katie Schloer.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image thanks to Pascal via flickr.

Doctor's Note

More videos on the paleo and low carb diets here:

If you were fascinated by how we can take advantage of plant defense mechanisms, check out my videos Appropriating Plant Defenses and Xenohormesis: What Doesn’t Kill Plants May Make Us Stronger.

How many antioxidants should we shoot for? See:

Check out my 7-video series on the keto diet here.

The original video aired on August 3rd 2016.

163 responses to “Flashback Friday: What’s the “Natural” Human Diet?

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  1. B-b-b-but the paleo people insist they KNOW what cavemen ate and that they did not die by their 30’s, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary.

    Reality: They just like eating all the fat and meat they desire, how dare anyone bust the illusion. No wonder Dr Atkins had a history of heart attack, congestive heart failure and hypertension from the diet he profited off of promoting.

      1. Ha, good one Deb.

        Indeed to all RB said. Furthermore, Atkins didn’t only profit off of a diet and incidentally off of lies, he profited off of the illness, shortened lifespans, and death of countless others. Some people who frequent this site do not believe in God or an afterlife, but for those of us who do, imagine your judgment day after a life and livelihood of that. I actually feel bad for him.

    1. I don’t know about how long cave men lived. But ancient Indian texts describe people people as living to around 80 years. These were written 2500 years ago. Way before any processed industrial food or advanced medical treatments. Some meat was available. A lot of rice was consumed.

      1. Blair,

        I think many people confuse “average life expectancy” with lifespan. If a high proportion of people in a population die in infancy, childhood, and young adulthood (“premature deaths”), that decreases the average life expectancy of the group, though the lifespan could easily be 60 or 70 or even 80 or more. The higher the percentage of people that survive each of these stages of life, the higher the average life expectancy of the population, even though lifespan might not be much increased if at all.

        So to say that average life expectancy was 35 or 40 does not mean that most people lived to age 35 or 40 and then died soon afterward.

        Common causes of death were famine, disease, non-violent injuries, and violent injuries (assault and war). These have been greatly decreased in our lifetime. Hence, average life expectancy has gone up, as well as lifespan, though the latter not by as much as the former.

      2. The ancient Indian texts refer to the diet of people living during the Neolithic and later periods not to the diets of people living in the Paleolithic. The Paleolithic is generally regarded as ending about 10,000 BC …… about when most people switched from hunter-gatherer to farming lifestyles. The switch from hunter-gatherer to agricultural lifestyles is also about when the human population boom began. That may or may not say something about the supposed superiority of Paleolithic diets.

        The idea that all Paleolithic people ate high meat diets is of course fantasy.in any case. It also needs to, be remembered that high meat diets were probably more indicative of some farming populations practising animal agriculture. Think eg of Steppe nomads in Eurasia


    2. No one with any common sense insists they KNOW what Paleo Man ate except the scientists analyzing the scrapings from fossilized plaque. After that it’s all an assumption. But we can assume that when our ancient ancestors rolled out of their nest, they weren’t reaching for that yet to be invented spear to go and hunt a mastodon in Siberia for breakfast. Primarily because those ancestors were still in Africa wondering if a thrown rock would kill a mouse. While you are at that level with all of your organs fully formed, the common sense option is the vegetation you are surrounded with, the bugs and other things you could pick up and stuff into your mouth. Those foods we chose even earlier than this stage, are what shaped our digestive evolution. So, you can forget about hunting involving large fatty animals. None of that existed for our formative ancestors. We were opportunists, gatherers and scavengers. You can chew aged meat from the bones of animals other animals killed than you can a fresh kill that you don’t have a knife to open the carcass with. Our fingernails were never enough.

      Prehistoric diets are guesswork based on what common sense, our dentition, digestive tracts, physiology, upright stance, height, convenience and a complete lack of technology tells us we ate from the time of the very first cells, not the diversion from our tree dwelling ancestors. You can’t look at short period in history – the time between Homo Erectus and now and deduce what is natural from that. You have go back to before our organs were all present and accounted for and that time is long before fire was mastered.

      We know that despite our research into prehistoric diets, we are still missing something. We know that because Homo Sapiens, until agriculture was developed, were bigger, much stronger, lived healthier lives and could not have suffered pandemics.

      What do we know about natural diets for mammals in general? We are mammals. Yet we arrogantly think our way is the only way and the best way for us. We think that basic food principles are completely different for Homo Sapiens than for any other animal on earth. That notion came from religion, not from science. Yet scientists still buy into it probably without even realizing it.

      So, what do we do that is different from any other living thing on earth that makes zero sense?

      1. We think that we can walk around for three days without a bowel movement and consider that normal. Nothing else, not even bacteria does that. So how brilliant are our doctors and scientists? Not too bright. Delusional.

      2. Then they have the unmitigated gall to tell us that everyone’s bowel habits and requirements are different. That whopper means that every other living thing on earth operates under a completely different set of scientific principles that we do. That statement defies not only logic but fundamental rules by which all life including us must operate by to live. If we assume there are 7 billion people on earth, the medical sector is asking us to believe that there are 7 billion unique to each and every human, digestive systems operating simultaneously, while another set of rules applied to every other organism on earth. Yet when we eat, the stuff we eat is somehow not rejected by our alien and completely different systems. How can we all eat the same foods as other living things and have a large intestine from another planet?

      3. Eight glasses of water a day are necessary for hydration. Huh? Give your head a shake. That has only been the case for the last 25 years. In that time we have trashed the entire planet with plastic bottles. Obviously our illustrious doctors and scientists are pedalling Fantasyland again. Not one of anybody’s ancestors needed bottles of water unless they were trapped in the desert. Then they died of thirst. So once again, the medical sector has missed the boat and is telling more whoppers. But you believe them because you have no choice. You have no choice because you believe other ridiculous science claims. One fraud begets another. Does any other species carry water around? Camels right? They live in arid areas right? If we needed to carry water we would have humps too. Just think about how stupid you have to be to believe this nonsense.

      4. Nothing but offspring consumes dairy products naturally. Milk formulates specifically for the offspring, not humans. No amount of processing changes that.

      5. If grain was an important part of our formative diet, our teeth would keep growing. We would have a huge cecum to process cellulose. We don’t. We would excrete our grain and re-ingest it again as rodents do. We would have to because without technology – a couple of suitable rocks, grain is not food for human in any way shape or form. Millions of years passed after our organs were formed and we thought of banging rocks together. Assuming we even had rocks. Most tree dwellers don’t attempt to climb trees carrying rocks.

      6. No animal on earth consumes the amount of fat humans do. That habit has been our number one killer for over a hundred years that we can prove. I think it goes back much farther than that.

      7. No animal on earth has the ability to metabolize massive amounts of fat with impunity. Only domesticated animals carry so much fat that their muscles are fat storage dumps. Even their hearts are full of lard. If you eat meat, your heart has significant lard in it. Plaque in your blood vessels is not the whole story. Fat in your heart is a solid that reduces elasticity. As it accumulates fat, it gradually stiffens. Do you know anyone besides me who can tell you how to remove all of the lard from your heart? I don’t. But I’m no doctor. Why should you believe me? Doctors don’t even think about it because there is no known way to use drugs or technology to reverse this biological process. But guess what? The lard removal process is clearly described in my book, KILL THE CORONAVIRUS. But you would rather die than read it right? You’d rather die than follow directions and clear fat and corona viruses from your body using nothing but real food. That’s how brainwashed you are by modern medicine. You would rather trust drugs made with poisons than simply eat real food strategically and thrive. That is collectively what is being said here. You know who would be on my side? Dr. Greger.

      8. No other animal on earth willingly lives so close to each other on a permanent basis with few exceptions – snakes and insects. But they are not externally wet. Diseases don’t migrate from snake to snake on that basis. And they don’t kiss.

      9. Only humans over-indulge in simple sugar as a lifestyle. Ancient man had occasional access to honey and fruit in season. Occasional access to nectar from flowers. That was it. Sugar consumption for our ancestors could never have been more than a few ounces per year if that. Don’t think of fruit then as being what fruit today is. Strawberries were the size of a pea. Everything else was smaller too and had to be found, not bought.

      10. Today, humans consume well over 100 pounds per year each. Cane sugar was not available until the 1700s. Do you honestly think that in the last 300 years, your body acquired the capability to metabolize a 100% + increase in refined sugar consumption without harm? NO animal on earth does that to itself but us. We think it’s normal. Good luck with that. I realize those of you here understand the sugar situation, but that awakening is still less than 20 years old. It still has not made it to legislation where it should be listed as a poison with defined safety tolerances just like any other poison.

      That’s it for now. There’s lots more but I have other things to do.

  2. Love your videos. However I know I didn’t evolve from an ape I was
    created, and pretty wonderfully made I might add. Really you have to
    give up this ape stuff, I’ll bet you have a great pedigree.

    1. No problem Susan, we all (and I mean every life form on earth) evolved from single cells. What the intermediate steps between those single cells and us called themselves at the time, we don’t know. Apes, monkeys, gorillas and and us all diverged from from a humanoid of some sort whether the fits into your cozy self image or not, 850,000 years ago. Give it a rest. Or, instead of calling your ancestors apes, call them Fred, Sam or Suzy Q.

      1. Mr Fumblefingers,

        Am I a great ape? Or a good ape?

        Or merely an OK ape?

        Or just an ape?

        If I am going to be an ape – I wanna be good at what I do.

        Self esteem hangs in the balance –


          1. Mr Fumblefingers,

            You have made my week.

            A . . . Great . . . Ape!

            Here I thought myself trapped in the web of the ordinary. But now – now I see, lying within – the seeds of Greatness!

            Who knows what you have created?


            Oh – a scientific error that begs correction in the article you linked:

            “Great apes, for example, are able to recognize themselves in mirrors (monkeys and other nonhumans cannot, with the exception of bottlenose dolphins).”

            This may be in error. You will not accept this, of course – this does not come from a published paper in a peer reviewed journal – but here ya go:

            Long ago and far away my family lived on a modest acreage. Father dubbed our little homestead “Animal Farm.”

            Donkeys and horses and steers and dogs and cats and snakes and snails and puppy dog tails and kittens and frogs for putting down the backs of sisters’ dresses and slithery salamanders and birds – lotsa birds – and crickets and squirrels and moles and opossums and raccoons and deer and insects of every description. And lotsa fireflies.

            And skunks – but that’s an entirely different story.

            Spot was so ashamed . . .

            Spot was a city dog – the best – and when we moved out to the country, we had forgotten to tell him about skunks.

            It had simply slipped my mind. I still blame myself.

            So ashamed. I can still see the look on his face.

            Good thing it wasn’t a porcupine – Spot was an enthusiastic fella – we might still be pickin’ quills out to this day.

            Well – ah yes – we brought ‘most everybody indoors at one time or another – except steers, horses and donkeys – Mother had some sort of limits – never made much sense to me, but ladies have their own way of thinkin’ – for a look at the very large full length mirror at the the end of the kitchen hallway. Kinda took up a whole narrow wall space seemlessly. Good lighting.

            Jus’ to see what would happen. And –

            Nothing happened.

            Cats and kittens – alone or in groups – saw nothing of interest. Just another wall. In retrospect, I wonder if that means that they really did see nothing – or were they just cats being cats? But at the time, their apparent blindness appeared to be real.

            Dogs and puppies, alone or in groups – not a sniff, nor a bark, nor a whimper.

            One day we brought in our new baby billy goat fresh from the farm to put him on a towel on the floor to check him out – we’d forgotten all about the mirror project by that time – when he took one look in the direction of that mirror – and flung himself, full tilt, head down right into the thing.


            That must have hurt!

            Space time held. Remained constant.

            No bad luck.

            He then looked up at his enemy – and they did determined battle.

            Smash. Bash. Bang. It was like a Batman comic book battle.

            I mean – every time he struck his enemy – he could feel the very solid enemy strike him right back with equal force.

            Well matched.

            Would you stop fighting?

            A baby billy goat has his pride.

            Now – you may say that the original supposition was one of self recognition – and that this was actually a matter of mistaken identity rather than a matter of self recognition.

            But I say to you – who is a greater enemy to one that oneself?

            He was fighting the enemy within.

            And if you disagree, Mr Fumblefingers, well –

            Never turn your back on a billy goat.

            Baaaaaaaaaaaa (the terrifying War Cry of the billy goat) –

            Vivamus the Great

            1. Viv

              Clearly you have had greatness thrust upon you. In reality, though, all greatness means here is that you are bigger than a gibbon. I wouldn’t personally get too cock-a-hoop about that.

              That statement from Britannica is not greatly in error to my knowledge. Not all apes are able to recognise themselves in the mirror but some have done so in lab experiments. In less well controlled conditions some apes don’t have the time or opportunity to work it out. But others can. See for example,


              That Britannica statement may be in error though in attributing this capability only to humans. other apes and bottle nose dolphins. Elephants appear to be able to do so. So can certain birds.


              You know, I can see certain similarities between your approach to such matters and John Newell’s.

              1. We are all humans. I see certain similarities to your inability to explore new ideas and a tree stump. Both strong, difficult to move and going nowhere fast.

              2. “You know, I can see certain similarities between your approach to such matters and John Newell’s.”

                Quite right. Hard to miss.

                Bringing reflection.

                Anything good – taken to extremes – can be bad.

                That is what psychopathology is all about.

                For example: obsessive compulsive washing of hands is merely an extreme form of following appropriate sanitation practices – the doer, in this case is all engine and no brakes.

                I prefer something a little more nuanced.

                I think that John may be missing both the brakes – and the fun part, as well.

                Perhaps they are each a part of the other.

                But that’s OK. Certainly not unique. You see people doing the same sort of thing in the religious sphere – and the political sphere – and sports – and science – all the time.

                The same anger. The same pugnaciousness.

                Just a different indignation du jour.

                And I am mostly having fun with my observations – I am really not too much concerned with the deep psychological conflicts of billy goats (but that’s a secret) – I just don’t use the smilies to communicate that – and there are also more serious communications along the way.

                And – my observations are more from the inside – taught by scientists, learned in science, past attentive involvement in Journal Club, steeped in the analysis of the subjective and the objective. Whereas John’s observations seem to be largely from outside the scientific tradition – reacting against it – an amateur taking on reality as best he can manage.

                Butcha see – there is no one that questions science more than scientists. Science only advances by questioning – that is what science is all about. Questions are the business of science, The foundation. It is non-scientists that hold science up to excess esteem – often to try to contrast “objective” science with “subjective” religion or politics.

                But science – when you become a part of it – is every bit as biased as everything else in the human ecosystem.

                It just tries not to be.

                Those on the inside see it. Those on the outside – just use it to support their own prejudices – often without even knowing it.

                Some play both sides of that coin.

                And here – I find myself wondering what part you play, Mr Fumblefingers.

                I am content to think that that part – whatever it may be – is well-intended.

                We all – even John – do our best.


                “You know, I can see certain similarities between your approach to such matters and John Newell’s.”

                There’s may be a little bit of John in all of us.

                It’s just may not be our finest part.

                Awareness of our very human foundations – warts and all – remains key.

                Mr Fumblefingers.

                Always a pleasure –


                1. “Science only advances by questioning”

                  THAT is what’s missing here. Questioning me is fine, but I’m the questioner questioning the stuck-in-the-mud science.

                  What about joining me in questioning the established-by-fraud science.

                  Apparently, there aren’t enough additives in the bread to wake a spark of curiosity amongst the lot of you.

                  I was hoping to invite some sincere questioning of stalled fake science. Instead the audience is more stalled than the science.

                  In fact the audience that should be looking at what I’m saying and adding to it are hiding and hoping I’ll shut up and go away.

                  But thanks Viv for the back/handed acknowledgement. Another small step for mankind amid a flurry of sidesteps that are intended to save everyone from having to think for themselves.

                  1. John,

                    I think that your message may tend to be rejected due to the in-your-face harshness of your approach.

                    The anger. The dismissive tone. The superiority.

                    I know that that is my reaction.

                    Once I see the harshness – I tend to walk away.

                    In a world of healthy foodies – honey may be more appropriate than vinegar.

                    In any world, really.

                    Regards –


                    1. I agree. But I don’t get harsh until confronted by unreasoning stupidity.

                      I have yet to find stupidity swayed by sweetness and light.

                      Humour sometimes. But there is no humour in me when it comes to the unacknowledged damage done by grain consumption in science literature.

                      Constipation has been a problem for rice consumers for thousands of generations. It’s part of their lifestyle, how they think, what they talk about, it features prominently in their movies and their literature. Rice with its constipatory traits never seems to be identified as the problem.

                      Grain is increasing its ascendency in Western culture to the point where constipation has become one of the most asked about topics if not THE most asked about topics on quora and other question and answer forums. The same questions pour in from all over the world day after day.

                      Processed foods are not always the culprit but they are to the point where not a single person has ever written me back in over thirty years of answering those questions in many forums to tell me I’m wrong. Not one single time.

                      That is not to say no one has ever disagreed. Far from it. But those people upon close questioning have caved one after the other once we start learning what they eat and what they think is regular bowel movements.

                      In those cases, minds do change.

                      The questions have been a constant stream over the years so I wrote two books about it.

                      The first of those will be published soon under two different titles: A PORTRAIT OF A GOOD SHIT and PITCHIN’ A LOAF AN’ MAKIN’ IT WORK.

                      I can’t get in US television with the word SHIT in the title. You cannot get more hypocritical than that.

                      The best part is that if it happens there is anything wrong with my non-medical theories, I can correct them for future copies. That is a strength of print on demand.

                    2. “I agree. But I don’t get harsh until confronted by unreasoning stupidity.”


                      Once you learn to disagree without being disagreeable, you will have won the important battle.

                      But you need to work on the battle within before you attempt to engage in the battle without.

                      Or you will fail.

                      Exempli gratia: Mr Fumblefingers and I disagree about many things. As many things as there are trees in the forest. Yet we amble along amicably enough. I actually learn from Mr Fumblefingers all the time – scientific literature references are his forte, but are certainly not his sole contribution to the vast reservoir of universal human knowledge.

                      And I certainly enjoy pulling Mr Fumblefinger’s chain – without using a sledgehammer or an axe.

                      And he gives as good as he gets.

                      Result? It is from Mr Fumblefingers that I have learned that I contain the seeds of Greatness! I must concede – I am entirely cock-a-hoop about the matter – and I have never even imagined being cock-a-hoop before.

                      With your combative approach, however – your efforts at communication become largely ineffective.

                      This is not hate radio. This is not hate television. This is not the appropriate setting for such an approach.

                      In regards to your continued harsh and vulgar language – there are women and children present. Your insistence on persisting with such language in their presence does not speak well of your character.

                      You message – whatever it may be – is entirely buried beneath your harsh approach.

                      You cannot convince someone of the validity of your position while you are trying to crush him.

                      Life does not work that way.



                    3. The hammer and the ax work.

                      I started off politely long ago here and was completely and politely ignored.

                      l really don’t care whether any of you like me.

                      When I’m harsh you are all suddenly on topic. When I’m polite, the responses to Dr. Greger’s hard work are off topic and purile.

                      Any site I belong to, I stir things up and reader wake up and readership grows. Eventually, someone agrees with me and my following starts to grow.

                      You people are all about being politically correct. I am far from being politically correct. I also don’t care if I’m wrong if my wrongness provoked a better, more correct answer.

                      Quite a while ago Ff and I had a bit of a set to about Inuit. I had little in the way of resources in that direction and neither did he. But we had another set to this time and when pressured, he came up with a much better resource that propped up my position nicely. Without provocation that response could not have happened. Since it did happen we all have a clearer understanding of Inuit diet and its effects physically and socially. That gives a starting point for helping correct their digestive issues.

                      And if shit is the word you’re complaining about, well get over it. Shit is a legitimate word and used commonly in many languages. It’s only considered a swear word by hypocrites.

                      In fact, the inhibition that has existed for the word shit in refined circles. Shit has had a very negative health effect on millions of people in the past and to this day.

                      Why do you think so many doctors and medical scientists are constipated? They don’t talk shit and are generally physically full of shit.

                      Constipation and medical careers are practically symbiotic.

                      It’s also part of the reason those clowns are such losers dealing with the pandemic.

                      None of you have figured that out yet have you?

                      Well, that kind of idiocy is what gets me riled up. An obvious thing like that the entire medical sector has missed that I didn’t and you blabber about me not being polite.

                      Show some sort of creative thinking and earn my politeness.

                    4. When I started here, I was polite and routinely ignored.

                      So, I cranked it up a bit until you now have the degree of harshness you‘ve collectively earned.

                      My understanding is that Dr. Greger included these forums to allow the exchange of ideas pertaining to the subjects of his videos and blogs. I’m sure his hope was to stimulate new thinking associated with the research he illuminates for the rest of us.

                      No doubt he is well aware that scientific breakthroughs are not limited to those with a degree in science. That is a concept that seems to be beyond the readership here.

                      Formal science always plods. Informal science is a greyhound by comparison.

                      There are pros and cons to both positions.

                      Formal science is rooted firmly in the past and bankrolled on apparent past successes and errors that often become monuments to shameless idiocy. The vaunted self-questioning science lauds itself for us mostly a facade.

                      Informal science brought the emergence of heath food stores that sell almost no food, but a lot of pseudo-drugs and supplements unknown to doctors.

                      Unexpectedly, people staffing those stores know far more about healing degenerative diseases than doctors do. In fact doctors can look like bimbos by comparison.

                      So far I see me sharing new ideas. I see everyone else recycling old ideas.

                      Without new ideas there is no progress.

                      I don’t care if I’m harsh. I want discussion of my ideas, not people telling me I’m wrong and using outdated citations to attempt to put a lid on fresh thinking without thinking yourselves.

                      I’ve learned and people like some here, have taught me, that passion and aggression incites responses and increased readership.

                      It also results in better responses once the dialogue starts.

                2. I agree that science is flawed.

                  It appears to me, though, to be a rather more convincing approach than simply accepting the opinions of others who confidently justify their beliefs by citing their own experience and their superior reasoning ability. Especially when the factual assumptions on which their claims are built appear to be incorrect.

                  1. So, what have mine have fact checked? When I follow the links you post, they seem to indicate to me that you don’t fully understand the concepts you are trying to use to invalidate my comments.

                    Sorry. I deleted the post this post is the response to. You’ll have to make do.

      1. The problem is that there are 5000 completely different religions that all conflict and all claim to be “the one true religion”. Not an easy choice.

  3. Notice how fast the word grain disappeared from this diatribe? You may have noticed a trend.

    So, what do grains do in our bodies besides provide admitted nutritional benefits?

    Try fermentation. Fermentation is where farts come from. People tend to think cruciferous vegetables and beans cause farts. But my dietary abstinence of grain has shown that farts simply cannot happen without grain. Other people have found the same thing. What else can’t happen with out grain (assuming you were bright enough to eliminate dairy too)?

    Snot, phlegm, sinus infections, ear infections, gum disease, sore throats (unless induced by inhaling corrosive chemicals), some forms of constipation, and at least 55 types of degenerative diseases. No, I am not going to provide references. You can look them up using google the same as I did. If you do, you may find a lot more. I didn’t look that hard.

    So instead of trying to prove me wrong, why don’t you open your minds and try and prove me right for a change? That, after all, is the only way you can honestly prove me wrong. But you won’t.

    Looking at the grain issue without testing it on yourselves will get you nowhere.

    The scary thing is that your body knows how to be healthy. When you stop putting fake food in it, it immediately starts health restoration. I know none of you have tried it because there has been no word about here that I’ve seen. SO, how about it? Put it to the test.

    Cut out grain, dairy, sugar and eat only enough red meat to get your B12 and see what happens.

    I’ll tell you what happened to me: I lost weight until I arrived at 142 lbs. I’m 5′-6″. Average build. Down from 165. My mucus condition cleared up.

    I don’t fart. My shit does not smell. I have at least one bowel movement per day per meal consumed. My arthritis is receding. The pain is diminished without medication. No bad breath, healthy gums, improving eyesight. My finger and toe nails have not been as healthy since I was a child. My hair shines. No skin conditions. I’m not on any drugs. I have no degenerative diseases other than the arthritis I did to myself by consuming a largely carnivorous/grain based diet.

    Since I literally spent 42 years glued to my chair doing corona virus and constipation research along with a minimum of exercise, my hips are paying a price. I need them both replaced. But if I had not done that, KILL THE CORONAVIRUS could not have been written in time to head off the pandemic.

    What I didn’t anticipate was that almost no one would believe me unless I talk to them personally. After that everyone believes me. But I can only meet with people one at a time in person or like this with a hostile audience that has an agenda that takes the position that I can’t possibly be right because I’m not a doctor.

    So it’s ironic that the world’s dumb as shit scientists are doing fake science hoping to hit the jackpot without a shred of a clue about how to defeat a virus that is the viral world’s Tin Lizzy with a hopped up motor.

    How do you defeat something when you don’t stop to look at the facts? You assume you can kill it with a vaccine or a drug.

    Anyway, it’s all explained in my book. The biology, the cause, the way to defeat it, what caused the pandemic, how to convalesce, the whole nine yards.

    Did you ever stop to wonder why the science gods have not told you what your immune system actually is in simple language? No? Well, you should. How do you strengthen your immune system if you don’t know what you are actually trying to strengthen? OR why?

    You have not been given that information here by Dr. Greger either have you? Actually, he has in a round about way that you just didn’t understand because you didn’t question what he said.

    Guess why most doctors aren’t saying? Because THEY DON’T KNOW.

    Of course they know. At least some of them know. Dr. Greger knows for sure. But he has not spelt it out in simple language like I have.

    Just maybe, the little guy gets it where the top scientists in the world don’t.

    By the way, remember that International Journal of Food Based Medicine we were all so excited about? I joined. So did many of you I expect.

    It has some really impressive language in it. But not much useful information about how to use foods to restore health. I could have written all three of them in a week. Maybe less. BUT. The language would have been like this, not the polished bafflegab you saw in the journal of stuffed shirts. You will be waiting a long, long time before you get much information from them unless I write it and they accept my unprofessional style.

    They have not even faced the issue of legality yet. They are approaching their holy cause without any consideration as to how legally vulnerable to law suits they are. They cannot legally prescribe foods for anything without leaving themselves exposed to law suit snipers.

    That’s why the medical sector is not dealing with Covid-19 in terms of a dietary solution. They can’t. That’s why I’m doing it.

    Besides that, those doctors who have been doing it successfully are shut out in one day by the media if they managed to get face time at all.

    There is BIG, BIG money at stake with Covid-19. A win with a vaccine or drug means the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for the winning company or companies. It means a return to life as it was. It will still leave lots of bankruptcies in its wake.

    If I’m right, no pot of gold for Big Pharma, and most of the medical sector will look like the congenital idiots they are. That in turn will expose the food frauds in ways that can no longer be covered up by food interests. We’ve talked about that here. You know the frauds exist. Hopefully I’m helping you see how things really are instead of how we wish they would have stayed.

    The bottom line is that the reason Covid-19 is the threat it is, is because of the western diet and the prevalence of fat, grain, dairy and sugar in it.

    NO ONE evolved to eat any of that muck. You just read it right here. I’m mentioning it again because I know it did not sink in.

    No animals evolved to eat any of that, not even the meat and fat because domestic animals are not natural. They are blobs of fat on legs with fat saturated muscles. We did not evolve to consume fat. We evolved in the tropics eating animals that were not fat, they were lean. Hardly any fat and at levels every animal that consumed them could burn off as energy instead of becoming rotund like the human heifers you see today.

    When you eat what you evolved to eat, you can not be overweight. It’s impossible.

    Don’t think for a moment that rice is God’s gift to the human race. Far from it. Rice in all its forms is dangerous stuff. Why do you think Orientals have all of those mystic cures? They eat the grain version of PORTLAND CEMENT. They are plagued with constipation just as people who consume other grains are. They have so many problems with rice based constipation they talk about constipation in many of their movies and TV dramas. Yet they have never understood that the rice they see as fundamental to their social structure is the cause of most of their premature deaths. We have wheat and other grains to do the same things to ourselves.

    Sorry to be slaughtering another sacred cow but you believing in that baloney is what keeps food fraud rolling along.

      1. I did write the only book on earth about how to KILL THE CORONAVIRUS

        My research of over 42 years was first published years ago in an automotive magazine in 1996. That was when copernic was the most popular search engine and there wasn’t much to find on the net.

        The process I write about works every single time, because it’s the same process every living thing on earth follows to stay alive. If it did not work, there would be no life on earth.

        The scientists working on Covid-19 don’t appear to know or understand any damned thing about Nutritional Medicine, or even just food. I would bet most of them are constipated. Constipation and Covid-19 are partners in crime. Both have to be resolved at once to clear Covid-19 or any other corona virus. Not knowing that is pretty indicative of rigor mortis in their collective skulls as their native brain tissue assumes the elasticity of 30 year old Portland Cement.

        But since I’m not a doctor, people assume I’m trying to pull a scam.

        My research piggybacks on the work of a number of former medical giants: The first was Professor Arnold Erhet who died accidentally in 1922. His work was covered up as fast as possible by the established medical community who wanted no part of natural healing techniques that could not generate revenue.

        The second was Dr. Bernard Jensen N.D. who died a few years ago in his late 90s of natural causes. His specialty was treating systemic constipation. He has probably helped more people heal from that malady that anyone before or since with the single exception of Dr. Mahon Locke, the most famous doctor in the world in the late 30s and early 40s. No one has ever treated more patients successfully before or since.

        There are many other iconic doctors the medical establishment has submerged, ignored, banned from practicing, otherwise discredited or used criminal tactics on to protect the medical profession from common sense becoming public knowledge.

        I am going through the same thing.

        Writing a blog is too time consuming and requires a commitment that my other interests can’t allow.

        Plus my 42 years of dedicated research has come with a cost to my health. You probably think I spent a few hours a day at it. At first that was the case. As time went on, my design business grew but so did the amount of information I discovered. It does not take long to discover evidence of medical fraud once you know what to look for.

        I was doing the research because of the medical crimes committed against me and eventually, most of the rest of my family. So, I was motivated by a building rage that keeps me committed.

        By the turn of the century, 18 hour days were normal as my doctor-caused medical handicaps made me unemployable. I’ve lived since then on below poverty level to zero income since. But my commitment has never flagged. My wife has kept me going through it all but her patience has long since worn thin. She has suffered with me.

        Right now, I’m learning how to do video clips where I talk about my book on American radio. I was selected as on of 12 people to take part in political conference called 20 DAYS TO SAVE THE USA where I explain where Trump was coming from when he talked about using Lysol for clearing Covid-19.

        Of course that and nothing like it could work. But those of you here who actually read Dr. Greger’s presentations should have known what he was referring to when he said it.

        I must say I have my doubts about any of you reading anything because you get so little out of his talks.

        He gives the talks, and the thread that results looks like you were all watching a presentation he has yet to do and will most likely never do.

        I find most of what’s said, highly insulting on his behalf.

        Anyway, my aim now is to get the book out as an ebook and to see if I can’t get my clips on Youtube. We’ll see.

            1. “Utter nonsense”

              Best not say that to a Sumerian.

              When I go walking – I try to think of what it must be like to walk a mile in a Sumerian’s shoes.

              But – try as I might – I cannot seem to fathom what it would be like to walk a mile in yours.

              A lot of anger. A lot of angst. A lot of bile.

              Black marks leaving a trail on the ground behind me from the heat generated from angry burning feet.

              Doesn’t seem very pleasant to me. But, hey –

              To each his own.


              Oh – in a nonsense contest – I concede.

              You win. Hands down.


              I think I’ll go have an apple, now. Something clean and cold and sharp and crisp. With nuts – organic pecans and almonds – and a half square of darkest organic chocolate.

              All the best –


          1. In Canada, there are no agents interested in anything to do with the automotive industry which was what my first book was about. I did the self-publishing route eventually. Now self-publishing and print-on-demand have united and at present most authors use that system to bypass agents.

            The automotive Magazine was THE INTERNATIONAL REBEL MACHINE NEWSLETTER. It was the first full colour automotive newsletter in history I think and I published it for Rebel Machine owners exclusively. I later published THE REBEL MACHINE IDENTITY, a 300 page book about my adventures in my Rebel Machine. The real motive though was to publish health restoration stories to keep my friends alive. While my readership enjoyed the material, they were just as obtuse as everyone here. So just because you are here, does not give you any health benefits if you cannot learn the techniques because your mind is closed.

            I guess, when it comes to food, I’m way more flexible and ready to experiment than any of you. That makes me the scientist and you the spectators. That is not to say I don’t accept advice and information when offered. Fumblefingers, though as hidebound as a fencepost is often a good stimulus for me and a great motivator. Too bad it doesn’t work both ways, it would be more fun.

            1. hidebound as a fencepost?

              I certainly can’t claim to have a mind like a steel trap, nor do I strive to be an intellectual contortionist, but aren’t you mixing your metaphors there?

              Anyway, the problem I have with your assertions is that, when I fact check them, your basic assumptions often turn out to be incorrect and your reasoning is either simplistic or based on exaggerated extrapolation.

              Have you ever considered that it is not everybody else that is out of step but you?


    1. Newell, you wont want to hear this, but you do fart in your sleep. (my wife says she doesn’t fart either).

      I can only tell one person at a time about, this but after I untie them , they totally believe me and promise to come back for another session.

      1. If I farted in my sleep, my wife would wake up. But yes, bodily functions do create small amount of gas and it is released. But the amounts are so small, you cannot induce a fart until right before or during a bowel movement but usually not even then. I’ve been checking for a long time. When you’re as old as I am, you can go entire nights without sleep as well. No action at all then either. When you eat properly, there is no smell and the food passing through the digestive tract is not there long enough to create gas.

        When you excrete, 7 – 14 seconds does not leave enough time for a fart.

        If farting was a natural process, our ancestors would have been eaten by predators with even an ordinary sense of smell.

        So no body odour either. No snot, no congestion. Any of these condition would have doomed our ancestors who initially lived out in the open in trees. No shelter whatsoever. Drawing attention to yourself like that also means spreading a heat signature which would have attracted biting insects.

        Farting is a clear sign of constipation. So from your comment, you now know you are constipated and really have no cause to be making snide remarks about farting. You should be learning from me about how to restore your failing health. Buy the KILL THE CORONAVIRUS and learn how to look after yourself. Go ahead. No one will know it was you. After you’ve read it, your IQ will have gone up a notch and your ability to deal with Covid-19 will have vastly improved. I know that because your remarks so far tell me you have no clue.

        1. That is an amazing diagnosis since I had no idea I was constipated.

          I decided to “put it to the test” and rather than stay up all night because I am old (by the way staying up all night is not normal and you suffer from insomnia), I rather just used your method of random observation.

          So, I just asked my regular shit this morning if he knew he didn’t exist because I am supposed to be constipated. He told me that he had to get out of the way of the next guy and suggested I inform you that you are wrong, since I do regularly defecate, without fail.I also didn’t mention my farts which come and go usually based on my beans ingestion. (not volume but how they were cooked, and which type.)

          I can tell your “science” is observational and personal, and even presumptuous , and so can everybody else here.

          None the less, I am glad that while you are up all night waiting to fart, you come up empty handed. I will say though that it is possible that you’ve drifted off even for a minute, and you may well have farted during that time. Therefore I suggest a recording device.

          Lastly, concerning snide remarks, I will point you to your own posts here and assume the pot/kettle senario.

        2. Oh my God – is this what is in store for the UK as well? These kind of remarks (curing constipation as a panacea?) used to only appear in “Ripley’s Believe it or Not” or the Fortean Times. There was a general consensus among people of all political and religious persuasions of what constituted common sense and what was in fact BOLLOCKS. Talking Bollocks was typically confined to one’s most intimate friends over a beer or three in quiet snugs in Student Unions & well out of earshot of grown-ups. But musings on how sweet-smelling farts could save humanity soon gave way to more concrete matters like paying bills and raising kids. For most of us.
          The scientific method was accepted as fallible (see Newtonian physics being trumped by Einsteinian physics) but still the best arbiter of what is (likely to be) true. So in my childhood everyone got vaccinated even though you heard of isolated cases of kids suffering adverse side-effects. That was simply bad luck and in the grand scheme unlikely to happen to you. Parents took their kids for the jab because they didn’t want them to get polio or die of mumps – the chances of which were much higher without the vaccines than being laid low by the vaccines. They believed that millions of doctors had to be right and not in the pay of a Spectre-like organisation bent on injecting microchips into children.
          Even though common sense was never codified you recognised its opposite. Here are some examples :
          Eat more veg, fruit, whole grains, legumes = common sense
          Eat vegan cheese = a bit weird (eat less dairy cheese instead)
          Reduce screen time = common sense
          Burn down 5G masts = very weird
          People who had one or two weird beliefs were said to be eccentric & regarded as “characters”. If they did anything useful they said to be “mavericks” – to be admired, remembered but inadvisable to try & emulate.
          People who held several strange beliefs and endlessly expounded on them to anyone who couldn’t escape (passengers on public transport were their favourite captive quarry) were regarded as having “a few slates short of a roof” and pointed at in the street. (Our local village idiot was a chap we called The Joker. He lived in Brook House Flats & would wear several shirts on top of each other, till the accumulation of collars made it look like he had a makeshift noose under his chin. He would eat a bowl of curry sauce at the local greasy spoon café which is where you could hear him hold forth on his years of service for MI6 and how he was still on their books for “special missions” to East Germany and the Middle East). Eventually their loved ones would section these folk and they would spend the rest of their lives in grim institutions spouting off about how everything’s connected and how the media is in the hands of a Jewish conspiracy\working hand in glove with the Soviets\the plaything of the Establishment (delete as appropriate). Today doctors recognise a vast array of previously undiagnosed mental illnesses so there is no excuse for not seeking help. If only The Joker were alive today.
          Instead we find a new generation of Jokers as adrift from Common Sense not to mention science and logic as their forbears only these days instead of ranting on the Late Bus they offer their unhinged theories for all to read online. This is one of the reasons I have been off social media for almost 4 years. People who used to rave about God’s Plague or shadowy supra-governmental organisations did so from the safety of their bedsits or parents’ spare room. Years of their scrawled outpourings would be discovered by bewildered loved ones after the men in white suits had left with the patient. Now you can read all that drivel in almost any forum you care to. Including it seems this one.

          1. The difference between me and them is this: if you do what I say, you will get the results I say you will. You people being afraid of foods you’ve eaten all your lives makes no sense to me.

            Going without grain will not induce famine or ill health. The reverse is true. You people are like animals that have been caged for so long, you are afraid to come out when the door is opened.

            And yet you convince yourselves you are educated and normal. To me you’re mentally crippled by your beliefs.

            That’s what’s so ironic about you lot following Dr. Greger. He invites you to think for yourselves but the gesture is wasted.

            You read the studies yet are unable to read between the lines.

            Sooner or later, new archeological evidence will prove me right.

            As for talking shit jpsivori, bowel habit secrecy leads to all sorts of functional impairment. my decades of discussions with people in trouble have given me vast insight and experience that even gastroenterologist recognize as useful.

            Secrecy where bowel habits are concerned is no one’s friend.

            1. I am just starting to read your posts. Do you include oats and legumes in your definition of grains?

              Thank you. I appreciated the break from politics tonight!

              1. Legumes are not grains. A lot of people do, for some reason I can’t explain, think I categorize legumes as grains. What made you think to ask that?

                Oats are grains. They contain gluten. But they are a special case.

                Oats are one of the best defences against constipation. As such, they protect against the degenerative diseases caused by other grains through constipation.

                The problem with oats is that for diabetics and prediabetics, oats can drive your blood sugar through the roof.

                The only way I’ve found to counteract the sugar spike is to add chic peas to the oats while cooking.

                It matters which type of oats you use, how many chic peas you add and whether or not your intestinal system is clean enough to give you accurate results you can spend on.

                I used a Freestyle Libra system to plot my blood sugar level food by food in order to measure the combination on myself.

                The problem is that if you use too many chic peas you can lower your blood sugar right off the chart. is takes hours to correct it if you even know about it. Not everyone recognizes that hypoglycaemia is their issue or has even heard of it.

                Without a Freestyle Libra, you can’t take the chance. The old fashioned pricking your finger process is nowhere near accurate enough or fast enough.

                Trying to live with blood sugar that is too low is not something you can survive for a prolonged period because blood sugar is what your body really uses for nourishment.

                You have to rectify that sugar low fast with sugar with more sugar. That often starts a round of sugar spikes and lows that can take hours or days to sort out.

                That’s all I have time for right now. I’ll revisit this later today since I’m working on my book; A PORTRAIT OF A GOOD SHIT today.

          2. JPS

            You appear to be one of a dwindling minority of rational people. Or perhaps it is just that individuals with those sorts of problems are much more vocal and noticeable than normal people and that’s why there appear to be so many more of them.

            All I can advise is to simply enjoy it as entertainment and occasionally throw in the odd sane comment here and there. As the fireworks instructions used to advise, ‘light the blue touch-paper and retire to a safe distance’. That may seem unkind but it’s better than being appalled and depressed by the prevalence of conspiracy nuts and the utter absurdity of their beliefs.

    2. ‘But my dietary abstinence of grain has shown that farts simply cannot happen without grain.’

      Still living in your own fantasy world, eh John? Why not try engaging with reality every now and then? I think everybody knows that there were no grains in traditional Eskimo diets yet theirs is the only culture I know of that has a god of farts


      1. I guess you missed that little word constipation didn’t you? So did I. But I clearly used the word constipation and fermentation in that short ditty. As such if I had any confidence in that mighty brain of yours you could have put 2 and 2 together and chastised me for leaving that out, but those feeble grey cells of yours weren’t up to the challenge.

        1. John

          What you wrote was ‘‘But my dietary abstinence of grain has shown that farts simply cannot happen without grain.’ No ‘ifs’, ‘ands’ or ‘buts’ there. Unfortunately, I am completely unable to read other people’s minds even yours. Especially at a distance. My usual joke in these circumstances is to explain that it is particularly difficult to read minds when I have such poor material to work with.

          If it’s any consolation, the Eskimo god of farts is also the god of constipation. Perhaps that is who you should dedicate your next book to?

          1. Mr Fumblefingers,

            Where in the world did you come up with Matshishkapeu?

            No – no – don’t tell me.

            Some things should forever remain mysteries.

            My hat is off to you –


    3. Why did our ancestors take the trouble to farm vast quantities of grain when they settled down ~10k years ago?
      They must have been eating ancient whole grains like einkorn and maize rice etc while still hunter gatherers and there’s evidence they were!
      Check out findings from Tanzania from 100K years ago. Scientists found grains of sorghum embedded in a mortar. The fact is that grass seeds (grains) were plentiful and packed with nutrition. The knack is getting to the nutrition. Grains are designed to become grass not food. Hence pestling them on a stone, fermenting them in sourdough or boiling them in a gruel or porridge.
      We definitely should be eating grains – just not the highly processed nutritionally poor flours and breads Big Food doles out.
      Try oat groats or stone ground wheat or spelt with the husk and grain left in.
      Obviously the key is eat widely and not just one food, mainly plants. Whole grains are after all plants

      1. Of course they were. Use your head. How much wild grain growing haphazardly can you consume? Ever tried it? No you haven’t and you haven’t spent 10 seconds thinking about what a nasty occupation that would be.

        They tried it and liked it over countless years. But the yield from a wild crop would always be unreliable, seasonal or completely absent in some years.

        Until they farmed it they could not get enough to damage themselves.

        The damage done by grain is amplified when combined with dairy as well and amplified more with the addition of sugar and fat.

        That combination introduces fermentation, inflammation, infection and decrepitude followed by declining life spans.

        That is all history, not my opinion.

        1. ‘That is all history, not my opinion.’

          It’s not history John. It really is just your opinion. Complete fantasy some might say.

          Every credible health authority on the planet says we should be eating more whole grains. Yet we are supposed to believe that they have it all wrong and someone who confuses his own imaginings with the documented scientific record, has it right?

          1. Right.

            I’m not saying everyone has to stay away from grain forever, just during the threat and restoration. I enjoy grain foods as much as anyone. In fact my addiction to grain and even dairy is why it took 42 years instead of five to do the research.

            I tried everything possible to find a way to disprove my theories but nothing worked.

            I can play my body and induce symptoms as easily as you put your socks on. Easier.

            I’m not from Mars or a different universe. What happens to me happens to everyone, only much more slowly. But it still happens.

            We are all the same. We ARE NOT all different. That is medical BS.

            I’ve even induced arthritis and tracked in my hands, then reversed it.

            But eventually, arthritis gets you. You can’t keep tempting fate forever.

            Constipation was a much bigger issue for me. Learning how to resolve it was key to learning how to defeat corona viruses.

            I isolated 28 different types of sequences that cause constipation. Nearly all of them I experienced I personally experienced and had to learn to defeat using different processes. Did you know, constipation mirrors your personality? Resolving constipation can often require psychiatric care more than dietary adjustment.

            That quest for regularity is where my learning about medical fraud started and where my understanding about grain-caused illnesses came from.

            I agree with you that the medical literature supports the nutritional value of grain.

            But there are whole fields of study that are intentionally warped by the scientific community to perpetuate misinformation about grain consumption.

            Fibre as a for instance. We can divide fibre into two categories. Live and dead.

            Live fibre is wet and alive when you eat it. As such, it retains its moisture as it travels from mouth to toilet bowl.

            Dead fibre is dry and absorbs moisture, steals moisture as it makes the same journey. All grains fall into this category. Beans and pulses do not. I have no issue with them.

            People who don’t consume enough live fibre condemn themselves to carrying plastic bottles of water and often kidney stones too.

            No one needs to carry water around if they eat enough raw vegetables – NOT fruit.

            Few people were carrying around bottles of water until the late 90s

            Sugar plays a huge role everyone overlooks.

            Simple sugars, whether refined or in fruit from any source including processed foods creates instant imbalance in the body.

            To mitigate this, the stomach assisted by the vagus nerve, redirects water from all areas of the body to the stomach in a valiant attempt to dilute the sugar load before it sets up a sharp sugar spike. That further dehydrates the stool. The excess sugar ends up in the intestinal tract where it nourishes candida albicans most famously.

            I hope I don’t have to describe what disaster that eventually becomes.

            Even so, grain is a simple sugar in case you’ve forgotten. Lots of people chow down on half a loaf of bread just for breakfast along with cereal which has even more sugar added.

            So, with one fell swoop, you have a meal that is pure sugar, with sugar added, backed up with dry grain, that cannot retain moisture, all passing through the digestive tract at once. And you seriously think grain is somehow going to be a healthy choice Fumblefingers?


            How dumb are you to miss this?

            Let’s look at what the science says: eating whole grains is a 23% healthier choice than eating refined flour. You believe that don’t you? Well in my world, that translates into 77% unhealthy. So, you are somehow 23% healthier eating whole grain bread made of dead, water-sucking flour that becomes the proverbial brick plugging your sigmoid colon this morning.

            Or maybe you ate rice, the plant-based version of quickset concrete. Another great source of dead fibre if it hasn’t become sticky white rice that’s even worse for other reasons. Yes, even natural brown rice loses the water it swells with while cooking as it passes through the digestive tract. You can actually drywall a house with it. Rice will dry in place long before it rots. It won’t rot until it gets wet sand slumps into non-fibrous particles that still can’t retain water.

            By contrast, the live fibre cells from vegetables can retain and do retain moisture all the way through the digestive tract. By doing so, they don’t cause water starvation in the large intestine.

            By doing so, transition times from mouth to toilet bowl resets to natural – 12 to 18 hours instead of what the Mayo clinic says is normal: 18 hours to three days.

            And you believe this shit Fumblefingers?

            Where is that discerning, analytic mind? You’ve been conned.

            Every living thing on earth follows this principle: food and water in, timely digestion of live food, energy expended. waste expelled.

            There is not a single organism on earth that disobeys that principle. NOTHING, not even viruses.

            Why would a wild animal bog itself down with 15% of its weight tied up in dead weight – stored poop? Can you imagine trying to run from a predator with most of last weeks meals rotting in you as your own personal boat anchor?

            Yet you can sit there and babble that my adherence to the concepts I’ve described have not been tested by our fat-headed fraud-artist scientists, so I’m wrong and those jackasses are right?

            Kindly explain the flaws in my thinking without trampling your tongue in the process.

            I would love to hear you tell us how fake food industry science is trustworthy while mine is not.

            Tell me what doctor can teach you how to cure the common cold.

            I was sick from corona viral infections for most of my life. I haven’t had an infection since 2016 when I defeated Flue Type A without drugs. That was a hard fought battle because once again, I tried to ignore my own advice. I had to comply to stay alive.

            Please explain.

            1. John

              I don’t doubt your sincerity or your good intentions.

              It is your beliefs about the facts of the situation and your reasoning that are (highly) dubious. Take for example one of your many statements about grains

              ‘the yield from a wild crop would always be unreliable, seasonal or completely absent in some years’

              Gee, so fruits, eggs, nuts, berries, seeds, migratory prey animals and birds, leafy vegetables etc wouldn’t be seasonal, unreliable or completely absent in some years? Only grass seeds are? Who can take such an argument seriously?

              You confuse your own imaginings and fantasies with actual, facts and build a ramshackle theory on them using the shoddiest of reasoning. Sorry John but you need to ask yourself whether it really is everyone else who is ‘dumb’?

              1. I was only talking about wild grain there Tom. Like I said, have you ever tried to harvest wild grain?

                Except for wheat, most of it is at most 10” tall. Harvesting that is horrible work with little to show for effort expended.

                Add that to where it grew: infested with lions, few trees, lots of highly poisonous snakes such as gaboon vipers. Maybe mambas ranged that far north in those days. Gathering enough grain to make the gathering worthwhile before someone thought of skin sacks would have been pointless. The grain they ate then was fonio and millet. Have you checked yet to see how tiny fonio is Tom. It goes straight through a sieve. Crushing that stuff up to make the nutritive value available was horrible even in modern times until 2012 as I mentioned a few months ago.

                Miller is easier but requires better soil, so, it doesn’t grow just anywhere. Crop farming in Africa is a formidable challenge even with modern farm equipment. In fact modern farm equipment doesn’t work that well either. So grain in those early days could not have been that big a deal.

                Wheat as far as we know did not become a continuous food source until 15,000 years ago and that is not my opinion, that is the fossil record. As grain consumption spread so did dental destruction and failing health.

                Other grains are even less obvious when it comes to health issues. primarily they would have had to do with the effect on the viscosity of our mucus and saliva.

                As soon as you add grain, any kind of grain, once processed, it changes the viscosity if both mucus and saliva.

                I’m only making the distinction between saliva and mucous because the chemistry of the two are distinct and quite different.

                Until grain is processed you might as well be eating pebbles. It goes right through you as roughage, but not fibre.

                After the husks, hulls or seed cases have been crack, the seed inside is water soluble. It’s not just digestible, it mixes with mucus and can accumulate as sludge throughout the body – especially the mouth even without gluten as the fossil record shows and as you pointed out previously.

                Apparently, gluten makes the difference where tooth decay and gum diseases are concerned because so far, those studying ancient grains in the diet have not shared their observations as far as I am aware.

                However, my experiments with millet and fonio did cause excess mucus in me. Not nearly what gluten bearing grain would do but phlegm was present.

                That would indicate more study required. I did not experience enough of a food benefit to continue trying it for the amount of effort trying to use it. It’s not much better than crushing it on a rock if you still have to crush it in a mortar and pestle. You get to stand and do it instead of squatting. It’s still labour intensive for little return on physical investment.

                How about plantain. The weed, not the banana. The plant itself is pretty tasty. The seeds are at least twice the size of fonio which is white. Plantain is black and pointy and easier to crush because they aren’t round. I crushed some with a spoon.

                I didn’t eat any of that because my hips are too painful to bend over to pick the stems. I ate them whole. No taste and no discernible benefit because I didn’t have enough to make crushing more than a few. It wasn’t worth the hassle.

                Plantains were brought here from England where they were a popular grain crop. Not here though because of them only being 6” high.

                Wheat became popular with Egyptians because it was easy to harvest being waist high. They paid dearly for that grain with their teeth, heart disease and everything else that comes with grain consumption.

                Without technology we humans have been plagued with grain residues our bodies have no mechanism to counteract.”

                Another factor never considered for herbivores is how long it takes teeth to decay on such a diet – grasses, incidental grains, leaves and woody stems. Many years in the absence of sugar and naturally strong teeth. Various species have teeth that keep growing. That keeps teeth and gums healthy in rodents, elephants and sharks.

                There are many other factors related to grain consumption and science is starting to wake up to that fact. I’m trying to push this site into grain consumption reality. It’s coming. I’m surprised you lot are dragging your heels instead of wanting to be ahead of the curve.

                You may have missed the fact that Dr. Greger is soft pedalling grain since I brought it up. But that is the case.

                He is no doubt waist deep in it right now.

                He is not someone who is going to keep flogging a dead horse after it has gotten up and walked off. It was really dead and it wasn’t a horse…

            2. John

              You have no evidence that whole grains cause constipation. This claim is justified by your usual fantastical reasoning not actual evidence.

              The fact is that whole grain consumption has been the mainstay of all great civilisations (and most rural cultures for that matter). None of them seem to have suffered from widespread constipation until modern Western diets resulted in the adoption of high fat, high protein, low fibre diets. It is at least arguable that things like whole grain wheat and maize actually have a laxative effect rather than a constipatory effect. See the studies of people like Burkitt and Trowell and eg


              I wouldn’t particularly want to argue with you if you argued that refined grains promoted constipation. But whole grains? You’d have to provide actual evidence for that claim not your usual ramshackle chain of reasoning.

              1. Well my own experience is all I can cite and that is anecdotal. I have what people have told me too. Also anecdotal.

                But Burkitt and Trowell are delusional.

                You must not have read my piece on live, wet fibre compared to dead, dry fibre.

                Live, wet is what we evolved eat, not dry, dead. So he is completely wrong. Our ancestors had very little access to dry dead fibre while living in live trees as our digestive tracts formed.

                Fermentation and attendant farting would have gotten is killed in short order while living in trees with snakes.

                Today, right now, if you clear your system of grain, dairy and sugar you cannot fart.

                Do I need to prove that? No. You and anyone else can do it yourselves anytime.

                It’s not rocket science. It’s pretty basic.

                1. I don’t need to do that John since it’s also pretty basic knowledge that Eskimos on traditional diets ate no grains, dairy or sugar and yet had such terrible problems with flatulence and constipation that they had to conjure up a god to be responsible for those things.

                  Hmm, perhaps that’s the god who created Brian and Susan? There are so many of these pesky creator gods around that it’s hard to figure out who our religious friends are referring to.

                  1. Well there you rattling around in your hatbox again. Once constipation sets in, fermentation soon follows and so do farts. You become an acidic still. Your stomach can even brew enough alcohol that you can be legally drunk without drinking a drop.

                    Where would the inuit get dietary fibre?

                    They still need it. They evolved in the tropics too. So their state can be no surprise can it?

                    I have not done any research on them as i’ve had no access to any. But your words spell it out very clearly.

                    You should and any doctor or scientist should have been able to figure it out in less time than me, which was about one second.

          2. It’s not my opinion. I’ve tried harvesting wild grains. It’s damned hard, backbreaking work for meagre returns. There are plenty of faster ways to gather wild foods than trying to harvest wild grains. Granted, this is here in Canada and we didn’t evolve here.

            I’m also not saying there are no benefits to grain consumption. You missed my point – again. You on the other hand are not acknowledging the fact that there is plenty of science to support my claims. Grain does cause constipation and dehydration and both of those things lead to physical conditions including plenty of fatalities. Those fatalities are not fiction.

            1. Our ancient ancestors clearly ate wild grains on a regular basis. No hunter gatherer goes to the trouble of creating and lugging around grinders and a mortar if they aren’t routinely used


              Please point to the scientific evidence that whole grains cause constipation and dehydration. i suspect there isn’t any (outside your very fertile imagination). Certainly millennia of human history don’t seem to have thrown up any evidence to that effect.

              1. Our digestive systems were fully formed long before anyone was lugging around food processing equipment. That stuff is awkward to use in a tree.

        2. Newel might your thinking also be flawed in that your reasoning seems to be that that:

          Diet “x” existed for ancient man, AND grains were just a bonus not a staple due to the absence of systematic agricultural practices.

          That about right?

          You’ve mentioned that this absence of grains in the diet shows that the diet without grain was the true ancient diet.

          On one level my first thought is “so what”… What I mean is you’ve cherry picked a time period… add in some years and you do have grains as a staple of mans diet.

          Now, what I am saying is that if you reverse the idea, you will likely find that mans ancient diet didn’t consist of fruits and vegetables and whatever else you claim, but rather nutrition items were in fat added gradually over time.

          In other words due to travel and exploration or any number of reasons, mans diet evolved into what small time based group of foods you have chosen as the magic historical diet, and under which you have placed every ounce of your credibility as if this diet existed from the time our brains could muster the concept of existence or love itself.

          This is the problem of “expertise”. Unwitting ( I hope) arrogance.

          1. I haven’t cherry picked anything. My time frame starts with the first cell and progresses from there. Our food choices evolved from that point, not from the time we diverged from apes.

            From there, choices were made based on what worked and what did not kill them. They were also based on what was easy to gather and consume. Easy was leaves, stems, roots, fruits, bugs and small animals as well as larger dead animals. By comparison, grains that required technology no matter how simple, were not and could not be on the menu as our digestive tracts formed. Grain consumption required technology that did not exist.

            As we became more numerous, we had to become nomadic. But not until all of our organs were fully formed. So by the time we descended from the trees, all of our organs were fully formed and as functional as they were ever going to be. No new organs or processes have been added since.

            We know that because grain does not grow in trees. But nuts and seeds do.

            Unlike grain, nuts and seeds contain moisture and hold their own moisture when consumed. Grain absorbs moisture from outside and has a dehydrating influence after consumption. Animals living in trees would not choose to eat foods that force them to the ground for more frequent trips to water from rivers infested with crocodiles.

            They would have had plenty of vivid examples of how dangerous thirst can be. They didn’t need TV.

            There was always much more at stake with food choices that simply satisfying hunger and thirst.

            Eating grain found only on the ground exposes the creature to unnecessary threats.

            Animals that did eat substantial amounts of grain developed the dentition to do so: teeth that continue to grow, large cecum, low to the ground anatomy because most grain is found close to the ground. You don’t grow to five feet tall if your principle food source is less than 18” tall.

            Teeth that continue to grow is the indicator of a species that evolved to chew sticky grains. Teeth that keep growing ensure the residues that otherwise collect at the gum lines in the dental arches are always moving away from the gums. If this did not happen, all grain-eating animals would suffer gum disease. That would kill them just as it dies us without exception.

            Gum disease has been shown by archeologists to be caused by grain consumption.

            We did not evolve as grain consumers.

            There is no such thing as grain that does not accumulate at the gums.

            The noticeable, nutritional benefits of grain did not become apparent until after agriculture. Those “benefits” included declining health, shortening lifespans, shortening height, bone size and density, loss of space for teeth in the mouth, the advent of new degenerative diseases as well as dietary elements they were obviously getting somewhere else with more effort and better quality before the switch to grain as a food basic.

            Grain farming enabled civilization and with it, our physical descent towards becoming the sickest species in the history of the universe was in motion.

            Covid-19 could not exist as a pandemic without grain as an important contributing factor.

      2. There is way more to it than that jpsivori. Wny can you people not think in terms of lots of contributing factors going on all at once. Why does it always seem like I’m talking to 6 year olds?

        Yes grains are plants. Why can you not stop to think about the fact that nothing else eats the stuff? Can you not get your head around that?

        Even rodents cannot simply eat grain and be done with it. They have to chew, digest, excrete, let dessicate, then reconsume, redigest, and then, finally access the nutrients. Seen any humans do that lately? Me neither.

        We use processing to eliminate the hard shells we cannot digest. But technology does not remove the gluten or the thickening factor that alters the consistency of our saliva, making it jelly-like instead of watery. What part of that are you not getting? You people supposedly know enough about the science of food than me but apparently nadda about extenuating circumstances.

        You are all very good at attempting to point out shortcomings in my theories but your lunch bucket is empty when it comes to offering alternative positions that actually make sense. You continually blabber about nutrition from grain. Well yes you can get nutrition from that direction, but so far, I’m not experiencing any shortfalls in my nutrition without grain and experienced plenty with it.

        Grain was not added to the menu because it offered additional nutritional elements. It was added because of shelf life. Grain, already being dry, keeps for longer than any other type of natural food. It’s easy to store and it’s light. Once it could be farmed, it enabled two things: a steady food source, a way of avoiding famines and drought more often, freedom from constant travel, more leisure time and all of that led to us being able to innovate and create. Those last two finally separated and lifted us to the pinnacle of the animal world, one step ahead of ants.

        Ants farm, grow food, eat grain, build and mine. But they are stuck and stalled from an evolution point of view. They don’t seem to create anything but their own dwellings. No art, no literature, no technology. They reached that plateau and leveled off. We took longer but we didn’t level off. We went to outerspace. Even so, our organs did not keep pace. Our internals have not progressed much in the last 850,000 years. Our stomachs and intestines still expect the same stuff we ate eight hundred and fifty thousand years ago. When our innards don’t get that stuff, we get sick. Well, no body gets that stuff anymore. As a direct result of eating soft foods like grain, dairy and domestic meats, some changes have occurred:

        Our jaws have become narrower. So in the last 50 years more people than ever need their wisdom teeth pulled. Teeth don’t grow in straight. Ever noticed the straight well formed teeth in skulls older than 15,000 years ago? Perfect teeth, no dentists and no gluten. Hopefully you have read my diatribes before. If so, you know gluten is a Latin word for the English word: GLUE. Since wheat became a steady part of our diet, humans have shrunk, our skeletons have become shadows of those of Homo Sapiens of 300,000 years ago. What changed? What did we not eat 300,000 years ago? Grain, dairy, sugar and domestic meat. What do we know we ate? leaves, stems, roots, fruit, lots of bugs, worms and fish when we could get them. OH, and wild animals that all lived in Africa, thus devoid of fat.

        Going back to grain, you mentioned fermentation. Guess what else was not going on inside us 300,000 years ago? Fermentation.

        Fermentation means bacterial blooms that when they happen in us, makes us perfect hosts for corona viruses. So, guess what else? Corona viruses existed back then, but could not overcome our immune systems until we made our interior environments corona virus friendly: acidic, gooey, and loaded with bacteria that could not be there without grain.

        If there is one thing nature did not intend, it’s the destruction of seeds by animals. Yes animals eat seeds, but most pass straight through an animal’s digestive tract and are planted with fecal nutrients to help the seeds germinate and grow. Birds eat seeds. But they also scatter seeds far and wide. That is the natural process. That’s why animals don’t eat seeds. If they did, there would be no continuance of plants that cannot run and hide. Consequently, seeds are formed to prevent their being destroyed by animal consumption. Of course some do get destroyed, but no animal intentionally consumes seeds on a scale that humans do.

        Did you ever notice jpsivori, that humans, since grains were added to our menu, that humans are the sickest species that has ever lived? Even with all the doctors and medical technology, we know less about staying healthy than a dew worm does. That is because we consume stuff our bodies do not have the organs to digest and metabolize efficiently. But you science brainiacs don’t have enough living brain cells to wonder why. You take what these science quacks say as gospel.

        The whole point of science is to prove past theories wrong. So here I am doing it and instead of saying, Hey, he may have a point, you blabber about “The fact is that grass seeds (grains) were plentiful and packed with nutrition. The knack is getting to the nutrition. Grains are designed to become grass not food. Hence pestling them on a stone, fermenting them in sourdough or boiling them in a gruel or porridge. We definitely should be eating grains – just not the highly processed nutritionally poor flours and breads Big Food doles out.” But you fail to mention a damned thing about the downside of eating grain. You call what you wrote a contribution to science? You parroted information that is only partly true without any consideration that grain does things to our saliva and other forms of secreted mucus that science has yet to get around to thinking about.

        Do you think your saliva and mucosal secretions are magic substances there for whatever muck you shovel into your pie hole? Have you no clue how unique mucus is as the formula for it changes as ingested food travels through our bodies needing different chemicals as it goes every millimeter of the way? Not once have I seen anyone on this site pay any attention to what happens when dairy, grain, sugar and fat hit our mucus. And you all think you’re objective and I’m the guy who doesn’t have a clue because I have no degree.

        So that’s another aspect of nutrition for grains. Go and read the message I wrote for Deb and introduce yourself to some other concepts our scientific mental giants have overlooked.

        It turns out, my 42 years of research have revealed things Dr. Greger has yet to think about. Keep this in mind: he was only 5 years old when I started my research. He has done some amazing things but in some areas he and all of you are way, way behind me.

        1. Seeds – turns out animals do eat seeds.
          I happen to have this but cant find the source…

          The seed is the matured ovule, containing the small plant (an embryo) with enough food to start its development.

          Linnaueus, considered one of the parents of botany questioned whether eating seeds is any good for us. The answer is a resounding “yes,” but let’s take a look at just what makes seeds such good food for people.
          The botany stuff with (like endocarp and epicotyl) is all about distinguishing which part will grow into which part, and whether the part came from the mother, the father, or is new and came from the embryo. (It helps to think of mammals: sperm from the father, placenta from the mother, and umbilical cord from the baby.)

          The seed protects the young plant and gets it off to the right start, by providing the infant plants with nourishment. Angiosperms experience dormancy, when and if needed. The seeds don’t all sprout and form new plants instantly, which has allowed humans to collect them, store them, cross them, study them and (if I may be so bold) develop agricultural societies.

          The fleshy covering of a seed may be what we mere mortals think of as “the fruit,” but in some seeds (sunflower seeds, cumin and coriander seeds, to name a few) the fruit is dried and actually is fed to humans as seeds. Many structures commonly referred to as “seeds” are actually dry fruits. The sunflower “shell” is the botanical equivalent of the yummy green stuff of an avocado, but dried into a hard outer “hull.” Commercial sunflower seeds are sold both still enclosed within the hard wall of the fruit or “shelled,” with the inner edible part exposed.

          With many seeds like beans and sunflower, where what we eat is part of the embryo, the developing seed has already consumed the endosperm. In “stone fruits” (peach, plum, and other drupes), the endocarp is the fruit itself, and it surrounds the actual seed–the pit. Tree nuts are the one-seeded, hard-shelled fruit of some plants with an indehiscent seed (dry, not juicy), such as an acorn or hazelnut.

          Most plant foods are seeds, when you think about it. We eat many different parts of plants for food, from roots to bark to leaves, but far and away the most important plant part for human nutrition, from the dawnbirds eating seeds of pre-history through the present day, are the seeds. From fruits and vegetables containing seeds, the coconut (a giant seed) to bananas (those tiny dark dots running lengthwise down the center of the banana are the seeds, and the banana is a giant berry), we rely on seeds for food. Even when we’re not eating foods directly containg seeds, or made from seeds (like white flour–processed wheat seeds–or modified food starch, or high fructose corn syrup allegedly made from corn), we’re eating meat that ate seeds (cattle, pork, poultry and other meat is fed food made from mostly seeds–wheat, corn, and other stuff).

          Nuts are seeds, corn kernels are seeds, beans are seeds, grains of wheat, rye, barley, or oats are seeds, a coconut is a giant seed, tree nuts are all seeds, peanuts and peas and other legumes are all seeds.Sometimes seeds have a thin, non-edible endocarp (peanuts) and sometimes we eat the endocarp too (skin of peas, edible peapods). Sometimes the fruit itself is the endocarp and we discdiagram of a seedard the seed (avocado, melon)

          I think, though, that my friend had in mind the seeds people eat that include the hull, or endocarp, the ones that look like what you might feed your feathered friends in the winter. Not just sesame seeds but flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, chia seeds, alfalfa seeds (and, indeed sprouts), sunflower seeds, hemp seeds, celery seeds, caraway seeds, pomegranate seeds, or spices made from ground-up seeds. Some people have trouble digesting the seedcoat or thin hull of seeds like legumes (peanuts and beans). Some people have trouble with the high fiber content of dry beans or the crunchy hulls of flax seeds, sesame seeds or caraway seeds.

          But the high protein, high fiber, high fat seeds have gotten a bad rap from dieters. The trick is that it’s all “good fat” with seeds. The fiber means you feel full longer, the fat means you feel satisfied longer, and the protein means you’ll stay alive!

          If you don’t like seeds, then by all means, don’t force yourself to eat them! But if, like me, you adore and relish them, no need to feel guilty! Seeds protect and nourish the embryo or young plant, and they can protect and nourish you.

          1. Yes, do run into trouble here on the difference between seeds, nuts and grain.

            Birds eat seeds and nuts and so do rodents.

            I guess I’ll have to spend some time on nomenclature because saying: you know what I meant, doesn’t cut it.

            Not all grasses produce what we think of as grain either. Wild rice for instance is a pretty good carb that does not generate as much slime as other grains and is pretty good for diabetics, but it’s still not perfect.

            It seems a study is needed to compare the glue/slime content of the various seeds and grains. Maybe I’ll do it between learning to walk sessions. It will be something to keep me moving and on my feet for rehab.

        2. In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.[1]


          1. So, there we have it in a nutshell. Why you confine yourself to your hat box is well stated.

            Don’t suppose I don’t recognize my own shortcomings. I just won’t be limited by them.

    4. You really believe we are meant to consume dead energy from other creations of God? Carcasses are dead energy. A very low vibrational food packed with cholesterol, saturated fats, acidic ph, and bad karma. The b12 inside the meat you’re mentioning is actually supplemented into the animal (therefore is not natural like what you’re going for). All b12 in animals is supplemented. As for grains being bad I’m not so sure if I can agree with that. Maybe a lot of them because they need cooked and cooking is not a natural way to prep food. Real good for human beings does not need prepped. Nature perfected it already. All we gotta do is pick it and eat it when it is ready for harvest. But like oats and wheat don’t necessarily need to be cooked like rice or quinoa does. So I guess I can somewhat some grains being bad or unnatural due to having to cook them, and cooking in itself is something we discovered/learned. Therefore eating meat wasn’t in our lives until we learned that skill. Sure some of us were absolute brutes like other animals we saw and ate em raw but I doubt it was often due to us getting sick from eating raw meat (which we are still not very capable of doing, with exception of a some pretty wild people in the world). I firmly feel and believe that fruits, vegetables, nuts & seeds, and select grains is the natural diet. All raw, no cooking, no preservatives, no refining, no processing except planting, watering, waiting, harvesting, washing, eating. Eat high vibrational foods, and exercise regularly to help live a high vibrational life. High vibrational resonance=a happier and healthier more fulfilling life, and isnt that what we all truly want? Is to be fulfilled, to be happy, to be healthy so we can be independent and live the lives we want to live? “Fuel Well, Feel Well” – David Mowry

  4. Hi John Newell, thanks for sharing your story. I am glad for you that you have found a life style that is working for you. The painstaking information and research that is gathered here by Dr Greger and team are from the research. Individuals are free to assess these information from research and see what works for them. I wish you good health.

    1. Of course what Dr. Greger shares here is from research. None of us has the access to the research he shares and he is often the only source for a lot of it. I and we are all grateful for his efforts.

      But you know and I know that what he shares is the merest tip of the iceberg that he reads/scans. I guarantee you he sees a lot more fraudulent research than he has time or inclination to share.

      I’ve spent a lot of time in medical libraries and most of what is in them is outdated bilge.

      The bilge is rooted in precedents that have to be cited. That process as good as it is, perpetuates medical whoppers.

      You can’t study medicine for long without tripping over them.

      So discounting my ideas and favouring those bloomers as simply ridiculous.

      On that basis, how about you telling us exactly what the front line of the immune system is in one word.

      If anyone should be able to do it, it’s a Greger acolyte. Go ahead. It shouldn’t take nierenberg that 5 seconds to think of the answer, type and post it.

  5. Ha ha, this is going to be an interesting weekend here in NF.O postville.

    Lets get the ball rolling.

    Newel, tell me about the danger of quinoa, and how your personal experience (like those who’ve apparently seen God) equals truth? Which “orientals” are you referring too, or rather what is your take on the meaning of that word?

    Do you get carbs from potatoes then, is that it? Where else?

    You mentioned meat, so you do mean all meat, including eggs? OR are we to eat skinny wild animals like you mentioned our ancestors did? I wasn’t clear on that one. If we should eat skinny wild animals, should we open up a bunch of wet markets here to provide that availability to those that don’t live in the tropics?

    1. Jackass, I never mentioned anything about Quinoa being dangerous. Quinoa is actually a great source of saponins. You of course, know exactly what that is right ? And now valuable it is to you personally?

      As for carbs, Ever hear of broccoli? carrots? sweet potatoes? squash? chic peas, beans? spinach? beets? parsnips? brussels sprouts? zucchini? avocados or cassava. There are plenty more. You don’t need grains for carbs.

      The meat we eat today is not meat. It’s fat saturated pink sludge compared to the meat we evolved to eat in Africa. Animals there have no fat. We ate meat without fat for hundreds of thousands of years before domesticated animals became our captive meat source that were then bred to increase fat content. The difference between the two is profound when it comes to the effect each has on the human body. Animal fat is water-insoluble. At cooking temperature it’s a liquid. At body temperature it’s a solid and indigestible.

      Wild meat is very digestible. It’s tough, so you don’t eat much of it. Consequently, you don’t gorge on wild meat the way you would gorge on meat. It takes a long time and requires better teeth than most people have today.

      When I used to manufacture frozen tropical fish food, I used Beef Heart as the flavour base. To get that base, I had to dissect cow hearts. I’ve dissected more hearts than most doctors. Since I don’t have to keep my hearts alive, I learned things about hearts that doctors never get to learn.

      So, I’ve seen the inside of lots of hearts. I became highly skilled at dissecting those hearts because all the visible fat, connective tissue and veins had to be removed. Small fish cannot digest them. The fat and tissues get stuck in the digestive tracts because they cannot break down. Sort of like the rapid cardiovascular issues we have, speeded up, and requiring only a single meal to kill the patient.

      The reason I used Beef Heart is because it’s the leanest muscle in the cow and, unlike the liver, not full of blood. Free floating blood fouls an aquarium quickly.

      After about six hearts, the processor barrel has to be scraped. That’s because the barrel now has a thick coating of lard on the inner surfaces. So even the fat free cow heart is saturated in fat. Other parts of the musculature are unusable.

      Skinny wild animals don’t have that fat content, even in the arctic. The fat is mostly peripheral to keep the animal warm. Fat in the muscle of a wild animal is fatal because it slows the animal down. Domestic animals get zero exercise by comparison and after millions of generations are nothing but blobs of fat supported by four legs, or two for poultry.

      If we want to keep eating meat, we need to rethink how we raise and care for the animals. Right now they are our number one killers. They have the last laugh.

      You are obviously young Jackass and therefore ignorant of the recent past. Wet markets are still the most common way of marketing meat in undeveloped countries that don’t have cheap electrical power to support refrigeration. So, yours was a pretty snide, self-serving remark that every bit as bigoted as what we think of as racism. I’m sure you just wanted to express some humour.

      In developed countries, wet markets are still common in most countries. What you’ve seen on videos in China happened and still happens all over the world, not just China. There was nothing unusual about that wet market. Not even the dogs or the snakes.

    1. I think it is a toy caveman thawing out after the ice age.


      I was going to call it after “The Big Chill” so I could find a way to throw in, “You make me feel like a natural woman.”

      Except for the big club and dragging women over the rocks and I have to go straight to the out of the cave metaphor.

      Don’t need no animal bones to put in my hair, thank you very much.

  6. All of this emphasis on what our ancestors ate assumes that evolution selects for old age. I don’t think t does. It selects for fecundity. If a female lives long enough to create offspring and care for them, then there is no evolutionary driver for her to live longer than that.

    Evidence-based science is all one should consider in deciding on the best diet for health. It doesn’t matter what our ancestors ate – they were not the source of some mysterious wisdom. Most of them were as dumb as most of us are now, even more so without our cultural learning..

    1. Cfolt150,

      I totally agree.

      The assumption that the ancestors wisdom is the one to follow doesn’t make sense unless there is evidence they were outliving us.

      The whole ancestral diet issue is easier to manipulate than anything.

      Even the what was in peoples stomachs would be different all over the world.

      Putting forth the image of the caveman attracted certain types of people. They still advertise meat as a manly food even if it lowers erections.

      Anyway, I feel like the ancestor imagery is a way to make history seem to be on our team whichever team that is and we have been trained to choose teams about everything and once we are on a team it is harder to not get sucked into team logic.

      1. So true about “teams”.
        Our social tribal instincts were a help during the earliest evolution of our species, but now drive so much of human misery. It is the root of all the “us” and “them” conflicts so endemic to humanity. It is what drives nationalism and religious strife as people are told by their leaders and religions that “they are the chosen”. These instincts are deep, and manifest even among our closest primate cousins, chimpanzee groups in the wild who war and fight for territory.

        Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

      2. Wasn’t it their environment that forced them to eat the right food rather than some mysterious wisdom or virtue?
        I mean if a tribe of Palaeolithic bods came across an office vending machine in a clearing i bet they’d drop their baskets of nuts and windfall fruit in a jiffy & gorge themselves on Mars bars and Milky Ways.
        We have to think more about our food because our food environment works against our best interests. Even the advice can be skewed as Dr G constantly notes, by lobby groups who sponsor some of the research.


        1. Our ancestors started as single cells, NOT apes. Accordingly our digestive systems and all of our organs started developing then.
        2. As they evolved, at no time between when the first cells and life on earth started, or in the intervening 3.6 billion years until the first homo sapiens evolved 315,000 years ago with all organs present and accounted for, were any of them consuming grain as a dietary staple, that is, in sufficient quantities to impede organ function. Dairy did not exist. Domesticated animals did not exist. Sugar was honey and very rare until the 1700s. 3. So our bodies never had or developed the capability to metabolize the glue found in grain and dairy products. We cannot process glue well if at all.
        4. Since we evolved in Africa at the equator, we ate meat that had almost zero fat in it. Even today, we cannot metabolize more fat than we can burn. The meat we eat today is not healthy meat. It’s fat saturated sludge as far as our intestines are concerned.

        Not having those things in our diets enabled us to survive as hunter/gatherers.

        What does that mean? Without those non-fit-for-human-consumption fake foods in our diets; this how our ancestors were:

        1. Almost no body odour compared to today where most people have to wear deodorant to mask the decomposition going on inside them.
        2. No snot. No sinus blockages or infections. That would have diminished sense of smell and ability to run to safety.
        3. No Ear infections since there was no dairy or grain.
        4. No farts. No fermentation happening in the colon because there’s no dairy, grain or excess sugar (accelerant).
        5. No snoring. No sleep apnea because there’s no grain, dairy, excess sugar.
        6. No constipation because it would have been impossible while consuming the amount of fibre they ate.
        7. No constipation means those people lived as long as we do today, barring accidents.
        8. Menopause happened at the same age then as it does now – around 40ish. Not possible if all the women died at 25 or sooner.
        9. Colds and flu did not exist because the physical and dietary conditions did not exist until 13,000 years ago. We know that because the people who crossed the land bridge to North America did not bring it with them. They did not get colds until Europeans arrived in 1492 at the earliest. The Vikings and the Basques did not bring the common cold to North America.

        All of these conditions are modern maladies that are impossible to even have if you eat as I’ve described in KILL THE CORONAVIRUS.

        If you follow my unprofessionally written book, you eliminate all of those bad, unhealthy conditions and more by just eating and exercising. No doctor required.

        You don’t need scientific proof, you just do it and your body knows how to put you back together.

        It works 100% of the time. For everyone unless they are terminal or missing organs.

        So, call me whatever you please, not one of you, including Dr. Greger can make a statement like that using modern science. No doctor using modern accepted know-how could make those claims with a straight face. You know it and I know it.

        You can’t even stop snoring!

        You don’t even know how to stop the corona virus! AND YOU DARE TO CRITICIZE MY STATEMENTS WHEN I’VE DONE ALL OF THIS AND MORE COUNTLESS TIMES?


        1. John Newell.
          Many people would agree with a lot of what you say, the majority I would say.
          But your tone is angry , perhaps you have not been listened to in the past and that has layered anger after anger on you.
          I think if you accept that there will always be people who will not agree with you and lots who will agree with you it might help you be more friendly in your approach.

              1. Everyone who comes up with new ideas is considered an idiot initially.

                It takes a lot of perseverance to change people’s minds. I’ve done that a lot, so me being thought of as an idiot is nothing new.

                By the time my ideas have become accepted, I’m bored. Eventually people start parroting my ideas back at me. That is truly irritating. Have you ever experienced that? Having people try and teach you stuff you invented? That is mind bending experience.

                Being considered an idiot is a breath of fresh air by comparison.

                A famous example though not my original idea is probiotics. I started taking them in the early 90s for Candidiasis. I learned the reasoning behind the products.

                My doctor and all doctors at the time thought probiotics were a crock.

                Now all doctors understand their value.

                Unfortunately, probiotics are still being developed and 20 years later are still nowhere near as the real thing.

                My Candidiasis never went away because commercial probiotics are still only a partial product.

                The real thing, I learned, is sauerkraut and other fermented vegetables. Commercial probiotics were never needed by anyone.

                So in my books they’ve become a medical scam. Doctors prescribe probiotics but not sauerkraut.

                Lots of people have a problem with the taste but it works. Commercial probiotics are now being prescribed by doctors for babies and children who should not need them.

                But who is going to listen to me? I’m no doctor. But I can think for myself.

    2. cfolt150,
      I can not cite the study, but I remember reading that in primitive societies where the family groups included grandmothers that more children survived into adulthood and they were better nourished. Grandmothers helped to gather food and also to care for children. Sounds like my family today!

      1. Grandma,

        That study does not surprise me at all.

        I have been watching homeless communities for the past several months and the ones that can get protective, cooperative, nurturing people to work together thrive better than many mainstream housed communities. It is very sweet to watch.

        If we move forward until today, many young people who have children out-of-wedlock end up having the grandparents adopt the children and parent them. I personally know so many people doing that. The single parent very, very often can’t thrive.

        My brother fell in love with and married a woman who had children from a previous marriage and he married her the year her teenaged daughter had a baby and had no interest in being a mother. He and his wife stepped in and started raising the child, but then the mother decided to try and moved out of state, but eventually dropped the child off and the reality is that anything at all is better than foster care. If there isn’t someone who really truly deeply will commit, the statistics are dire. Beyond dire. 60% end up homeless or in prison. Over 70%, possibly 75% never learn to read or write. The number of foster children who are abused is outrageously high. So many of the videos that I watch are foster kids. Some went homeless by 5, 6, 8, 11 years old and had adults beating them up and molesting them and police officers molesting them out on the street. So many of them are murdered.

        The astounding part is that you put a few parental figures in the group and suddenly they can have these extraordinarily beautiful communities. They start looking out for each other instead of stealing from each other. Group dynamics is fascinating to me.

        Grandmothers often stepped in because fathers checked out is something that I see.

        There was a study in my state where they asked wife’s if their husbands had hit them in the past year and 50% said that they had. I have never been hit and I was shocked by the statistics. Honestly shocked.

        Families can be so dysfunctional is obvious.

        But it is almost like the Dog Whisperer that one dynamic person who loves people can change a whole community.

        Love is so powerful.

    3. ‘Most of them were as dumb as most of us are now’

      Possibly. It’s widely believed that many domesticated animals are a lot less smart than their wild cousins since intelligence doesn’t appear to be a survival trait among domesticated animals .. It has been argued that, as well as domesticating animals, we humans have domesticated ourselves.

      Neanderthals certainly had significantly larger brains than modern humans and it’s a poorly kept secret among paleoanthropologists that average human brain size has been shrinking since the end of the Paleolithic

      ‘Over the past 20,000 years, the average volume of the human male brain has decreased from 1,500 cubic centimeters to 1,350 cc, losing a chunk the size of a tennis ball. The female brain has shrunk by about the same proportion. “I’d call that major downsizing in an evolutionary eyeblink,” he says. “This happened in China, Europe, Africa — everywhere we look.” If our brain keeps dwindling at that rate over the next 20,000 years, it will start to approach the size of that found in Homo erectus, a relative that lived half a million years ago and had a brain volume of only 1,100 cc’

      1. …only yesterday I heard Melvin Bragg’s “In Our Time” podcast about prehistoric cave art – latest research suggests Neanderthals did some of that too! So Homo sapiens was only one species of the homo genus living at the time & not necessarily the smartest one.

        1. “prehistoric cave art”



          Lessee –

          For Art Appreciation 101 – a little tired of “compare and contrast – I decided to do my term paper on Comparing and Contrasting Lascaux and Versailles.

          Lascaux: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2019/dec/12/humans-were-not-centre-stage-ancient-cave-art-painting-lascaux-chauvet-altamira

          Versailles: http://en.chateauversailles.fr/discover/estate/palace/hall-mirrors#the-hall-of-mirrors

          I had sufficient material to work with. ;-)

          All the best –


    4. You aren’t giving much credit for the knowledge elder members of a given species impart to the younger – especially those that are nomadic or migratory. In such species, experience can easily mean the difference between survival and non-survival of a species. Elephants and people are good examples. The older elephants killed off for their ivory removes a huge knowledge resource from the herd. It’s survival is imperiled. Elephants live a long time acquiring important knowledge and experience.

      Humans are only recently different from that. In the evolutionary blink of an eye, young people can now far surpass their elders in skills and knowledge. But somethings are lost without core family knowledge. We call that wisdom. Wisdom applied in families prevents the youngest generation from running amok. We see that stark reality with young black men on the news every day. Black families with absentee fathers and grandfathers. No wisdom, no guidance and guess what? That exact same thing has happened to the elephants all over Africa.

      Experience takes a long time to accumulate. It’s the difference between long term survival and not.

      Animals in captivity tend to live longer than wild animals. But that does not mean a wild animal cannot live much longer than a zoo animal. But it’s harder. Age has value. It always has. If that were not true, there would be no old growth forests. But you would not know anything about the value of old growth forests would you?

  7. You know – I hate to actually post on topic, but . . .

    Good video!

    One can see a lot that supports the WFPB diet coming together in this video – from evolution – it’s kinda nice to be associated with the “Great Apes” instead of being associated with mere “monkeys.” “Great” indeed! Makes me hold my simian head up higher! To Burkitt and the fiber hypothesis. Vitamin C – hold off, Ghost of Dr. Pauling – it’s OK. To lotsa other stuff.

    I would like to take all this as a foundation – and add the following:

    We hominids have spread from the lands of our earliest origins. Note bene that the rest of the Great Apes have not.

    Perhaps this is because we have wanderlust in our genes – perhaps it is because we are so quarrelsome as a species that some of us have to go on the run to survive – perhaps it is because we are so successful a species that we tend to overpopulate an area and have to expand outwards – perhaps all of the above. I dunno. But for whatever reason – upright posture, fire, intelligence – we have moved on from the jungle / rainforest of our forefathers and spread all over the earth to other environments.

    Humans are Great Apes with the added feature of Infinite Adaptability.

    Hey – other worlds are comin’ next . . .

    Looking at this wide range of geographic adaptation, one sees the “natural diet” of humans as being – for tens of thousands of years, now – as being largely dependent on locale.

    Equatorial latitudes are filled with plant life year round – and favor WFPB diets.

    Temperate climates have winters – and favor more a mix of plant and animal diets.

    Arctic climates are harsh on plants – and favor a largely animal diet.

    To me – it is not that useful to quibble over whether humans are “naturally” vegan or vegetarian or omnivorous or carnivorous.

    One can find support for any of those arguments and just argue back and forth all day.

    Instead – I think in terms of humans being “dietary opportunists.” Humans, for the most part, will eat whatever you put in front on them.

    Even if it’s a hamburger, french fries and a Coke.

    Let’s look at overall diets of the past ten thousand years or so – give or take a few thousand – hey, what’s a thousand years? – by locale:

    Equator – largely plants.

    Temperate zones – mixed.

    Arctic – fish and seals and whales and the occasional plant here and there when you can find em’ and whatever else one could get one’s hands on.

    The question before us now becomes which diets do we want to emulate.

    For the ideological amongst us – eschewing all harm to our fellow animals – it becomes a Vegan diet. Truth. But there is not a lot of support for an exclusively Vegan diet in human history. So you kinda have to make it up as you go along – guided by faith or esthetics or ideology or science or others – or any and all of the above. Knowing that you are right and not worrying too much about the details. That is one reason that Vegans are so interested in the latest scientific research. Unfortunately, the very nature of science is that there is always much that science does not know – even today. And one will inevitably run into the currently unknown nutrient omissions – only discovered ten years from now or twenty years from now or a hundred years from now – the inevitable “Whoops! We know now what we did not know way back in 2020 – makes all the difference!” – that we will learn one day only in hindsight. And that then requires yet another supplement in order to make the Vegan diet of some future era work.

    For the health-oriented amongst us – the answer is much simpler. We just look at what the longest lived cultures on this planet currently do and do our best to adopt their diet and lifestyle. The Blue Zones approach has done all this work for us – the five longest lived cultures on the planet seem to be: “Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece); and among the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California.”

    Here ya go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

    Check out the Venn diagram!

    The different cultures of the Blue zones have hugely different diets, but they seem to have a number of things in common – one being that, by and large, they involve a Whole Plant Based Diet inclusive of animal flesh on the average of five times or so a month. Beans are common. No formal exercise – but they walk to get around. Slim. Lotsa social reinforcement.

    Dr. Greger does not really cover the Blue Zones much – last time I ran a search of this site, I found only a few tangential mentions. Which seemed odd on a site devoted to diet and health – I mean, the Blue Zones people have diet and health nailed down. My feeling is that the Blue Zones work is focused on health and longevity – but it does not really fit into a Vegan narrative – so it may not be particularly welcome on this site. But there may be other reasons – I am not in the business of reading minds.


    In conclusion – I would suggest to you that there is actually no single “Natural Human Diet.” That instead – humans eat what is available to them locally.

    Going from there – if you want the “healthiest” human diet – which is an entirely different concept – you look at healthiest subpopulations that you can find and you work backwards from there to see what they actually do. Not what you want to believe that they do.

    And you do what you can to emulate them.

    And the healthiest diets seem to largely be a WFPB diet – generally inclusive of animal flesh around five times a month.

    If instead, you want the most ideologically pure diet – a Vegan diet – fine. No problem. Just realize – with eyes wide open – that while that diet may be the most ideologically pure diet in the planet – it may not be the healthiest diet available to you.

    Everyone has a choice.

    Bon appétit –


    1. We hominids have spread from the lands of our earliest origins. Note bene that the rest of the Great Apes have not.’

      That’s not correct to my knowledge. As far as I know, great apes spread widely across the planet from their African origins but only the orangutans (and humans) now survive outside Africa. It has also been theorised that all modern great apes originated in Eurasia and back-trekked into Africa

      Incidentally, we are called great apes to distinguish us from smaller apes like gibbons and siamangs. Just like Great Britain is called Great Britain to distinguish it from the smaller Britain (Brittany) on the European mainland and the other British Isles. Great just means ‘big’ but the meaning has obviously changed somewhat over the centuries.

      The Blue Zones stuff is interesting but isn’t particularly scientific ………… it’s just a set of different, discrete observations that may or may not be yoked together by some particular hypothesis or other. I can therefore understand why Greger doesn’t discuss it much And you do.

      Of course, this site doesn’t promote ‘vegan’ diets anyway so I am not sure why you always bang on about it. You also seem to ignore the fact that both the US Dietary Guidelines and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics conclude that well-planned ‘vegan’ diets are healthy. Perhaps doing so might contradict your ideology?


      All the best

    2. Really good post Vivamus. I try & follow Pollan’s 7-word advice on food : eat food not a lot mainly plants – but of course that message is not radical enough for modern boards, is too nuanced and leaves enough room to offer comfort to the enemy (whoever they are)

      1. JPS,

        Pollan has done a lot of good work in the food arena – I am surprised, now that you bring him up, that we do no see more of his thoughts on this web site.

        A few from memory – memory is imperfect, but they were originally probably something like this:

        > Shop the periphery of the supermarket.

        > Eat foods containing five ingredients or less. Avoid foods containing ingredients that look like a chemistry set.

        > Avoid foods with health claims.


        After Pollan’s The Omnivore’s Dilemma, I cut back on corn and on soy. No desire to feedlot a steer – we used to raise our own cattle, thank you – no feed lot, grass fed – but those days are gone. They liked to be scratched behind the ears – we would sing their praises as we ate them – “he always like you best” – like some scene out of Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land. Grokking to fullness. Nor any desire to hunt wild boar nor go mushrooming (we know too much). But the memories of Pollan’s work – with some of the teaching he did along the way – in part, remain.


        Thank you for remindin’ –


    3. A load of crap. All or our organs were fully evolved long before tens of thousands of years ago. We have no new ones since and no adaptations to help us efficiently metabolize grain or overcome the physics involved when grain of any description causes fermentation and thickening of secreted mucus.

      As for meat, we did evolve eating meat and loads of insects – the original vitamin pills.

      We also evolved eating our own feces. We are probably the only species that does not do that today. So, the perfect diet as we evolved to consume it would have to include your latest dump on occasion.

      Not about to try that are you?

      There are lots of legitimate health issues that modern medicine and science skip and gloss over that people don’t want to face. That does not mean those things are wrong, or that I as an amateur am wrong.

      What is wrong is you bozos thinking I’m wrong when I have millions of years supporting my position while modern science is still grasping at straws.

      You are nothing but bunch of armchair knee jerkers until you do what Dr. Greger has been drumming into you since Day 1: PUT IT TO THE TEST.

      Until you do, my word based on hundreds of repeatable, actual life events counts for all of your imaginary science conducted by constipated scientists who can’t even interpret their own work intelligently. And who are no strangers to fraud. Let’s not forget that.

      1. “We also evolved eating our own feces.”

        So – you were there?

        Sounds pleasant, I’m sure – if you are into that sort of thing.

        Me? I think I’ll pass.

        I have a hard enough time with borscht.


        John – I’m the last person on this site to claim to be able to give charm lessons. For that I defer to our very own Deb.

        But we do have women and children on this site. And you seem to be coming off as just a little bit harsh.

        You might want to consider toning it down a bit.

        All the best –


      2. ‘What is wrong is you bozos thinking I’m wrong when I have millions of years supporting my position while modern science is still grasping at straws.’

        There’s the nub of the issue. You are simply brilliant and everyone else, by comparison, is both stupid and ignorant

        Forgive me John but I am unconvinced. Some gross cognitive failure on my part no doubt.

        1. Instead of remaining unconvinced, why don’t you do a little practical experimentation yourself. You do eat don’t you? Try eating intelligently for a change and see if you health improves. Of course this is me assuming there is something wrong with you. My assumption is based on you being American and doing your best to stay clear of the typical American diet and maybe not succeeding that well.

          Forgive me if I’m wrong. Anyway, eating as I’ve specified will not harm you since it’s all food you already eat without the food that creates the problems.

          Is there a reason for you not to do it?

          1. It’s simply wonderful the way you confuse your own imaginings/assumptions with actual facts. For one thing, I am not American and I have never lived there. My spelling should have been a clear sign that I am not American but you clearly weren’t cluey enough to pick up on that.

            There’s nothing particularly wrong with me (at least healthwise) and I see no reason to abandon eating a healthy diet consistent with WHO/WCRF/US Dietary Guidelines/Dr Greger’s recommendations etc simply because of the clearly false reasoning you employ about grains. Especially since there is some suggestive evidence that consumption of whole grains may provide a mortality advantage


            1. There are Americans who can spell and who live in Canada and the UK as well as other countries. I admit they’re rare but your narrow-mindedness convinced me that was the dominant factor.

              You don’t have to change your diet forever to do an experiment.

              I followed your link. It was another study in critical omissions.

              If you keep thinking like that you will never be capable of making the quantum leaps needed to progress. You are stuck in the present with its flaws sprouting up all around you like super weeds.

              What seems clear to me is dense fog to you.

            2. Anyway, the assumption that study makes is that all of the respondents were equal to begin with in terms of mortality which they could not have been. The nobs running the study didn’t know enough about what they were doing to set the parameters of their study correctly at the outset. If they did, they would not have needed to do the study.

              Besides that, there was zero indication that any of the subjects were eating a diet in any way similar to what I advocate for health restoration. So comparing my theories to that study is irrelevant and mostly useless according to the blokes who did it.

              If they did know anything about health restoration, they would have more clearly defined the diets so they could finish with useful conclusions.

              Using the word “suggests” is far from definitive and exposes their understanding that the premise of their study was too flawed to draw assertive conclusions from.

              1. ‘Using the word “suggests” is far from definitive and exposes their understanding that the premise of their study was too flawed to draw assertive conclusions from.’

                Of course John. Observational studies can’t prove causation. However, it certainly points in the opposite direction to that which you are advocating. You have not cited any scientific evidence to support your claims. All you have done is make a number of often false and always simplistic assertions on top of which you have erected a jerry-built hypothesis. It’s little wonder people aren’t inclined to just take your word for it.

                1. It’s not that the citations don’t exist, it’s that I’m confined to my couch and my cell phone due to my bad hip. Looking up citations on a cell phone, copying and pasting is too tedious in this state. But if it weren’t for my hip, I would not be here at all.

  8. Dr Greger,

    Mic the Vegan mentioned a 2020 plant-based Parkinson’s study. He didn’t put much about it so there may not be much there but I was interested and wanted to hear more details.

    1. Off-topic post Brian:
      but all of a lot of very solid unambiguous evidence from several physical and life sciences say that you are most definitely a primate, the product of evolution from single-celled organisms. Your DNA places you in a tree hierarchy of other lifeforms. Modern apes are your cousins, not your ancestors. You would understand all of this complexity of the REAL world if you took some science classes..

    2. Brian,

      I was taught that Prometheus shaped man out of mud, and Athena breathed life into his clay figure:

      Creation of Man by Prometheus

      Here’s how it happened – so they say (Prometheus and Athena – working together)


      Which, of course,brings us to Chiron, The Teacher:


      Chiron instructs young Achilles – Ancient Roman fresco – Herculaneum


      Everyone, of course, has a choice:

      Creation Myths

      The Origin of the Milky Way – Tintoretto ~1575


      Enjoy life!


    3. Hilarious. I think your parents might have had something to do with your being here. You should stop by a pet shop at some point and spend some time watching guppies playing God. It will give some clarity of thought.

      Maybe buy some, set up a small aquarium on your kitchen table and watch the cycle of life take place right before your eyes. The whole thing in miniature as you eat your meals.

      Let us know when you see God show up to make the baby guppies.

      Don’t be thinking you are any more special than one of those guppies because you are not. There is not as much difference between you and a guppy as you seem to think. The biggest difference is that the guppy sees its environment as it is. You see it as you wish it was, but it is not.

      In that sense you could say the guppy is more realistic than you are. It’s all about how effectively you use what you have to live your life.

      There is nothing wrong with you deluding yourself, as long as you don’t let it get in the way of understanding things you need to know to grow as a person and stay alive.

      Don’t think I’m criticizing you. I’m not. In my view the rest of those people here knocking what I’m saying without any actual experience of doing what I’ve done many times, are every bit as delusional as you are. You are in good company.

      New and different thinking always gets ambushed by the career brain-dead.

      That’s normal, and, since there is no death sentence wrapped up in eating an ancient diet I’m okay. There is a death sentence for those who don’t believe me and think they can somehow avoid the consequences that simple chemistry, physics, biology, fluid dynamics, physiology and more all say should and will happen cumulatively. The evidence that natural science works 100% of the time is on the 6 o’clock news every night.

      I can explain how it’s happening, how to fix it and they cannot. Take your pick. Me not being a scientist or a doctor with a degree does not make my observations less real.

      And no, God is not punishing the unbelievers. They are dying simply because they fail to obey universal, natural principles as old as life itself. It’s not rocket science.

      No matter what level of education you think I need to be believed does not change the fact that consuming fat for instance, contributes to your vulnerability to corona viruses in general.

      I don’t care who you are or how much education you have, you cannot change that reality. Unless you put some thought into it, you won’t even figure out why.

      Do I need a degree to make that observation? Nope. Anyone who isn’t delusional should be able to figure that out.

      The rest of my book is written on those terms – real simple. If you can read and are not a complete idiot, you will understand how to protect yourself from Covid-19 or any other virus.

      Thinking you were created by God won’t help one bit. Neither will praying unless you follow nature’s principles.

      But the good news is that if you follow the book, don’t cheat and stay healthy or, if you are sick and recover following the book, feel free to think of me as the Second Coming.

      So, now you have a way of maintaining your delusion and following science at the same time. But you won’t will you?

      You will attempt to rationalize that I can’t possibly be the Second Coming. If Christ showed up on a pogo stick, you would not believe him either.

      You only believe what you are conditioned to believe in the same way there is no such thing as outer space to an ant.

      Fred, the ant climbs a mountain and sees stars at night. Without technology, he cannot see more than dots above him.

      A gust of wind catches Fred and as series of freak eddies carry him aloft, Fred finds himself in space. He has no language to describe what he senses or sees.

      Eventually six legged Fred gets deposited where he started.

      He starts telling the colony of his experiences on the mountain. Most think he’s a lunatic. Twelve believe him.

      He saw what he saw. God had nothing to do with what Fred did. But 12 ants thought he was a messenger from the Ant God.

      Fred changed his name to Moses.

      Centuries later, ants are still honouring Fred’s memory by building ant mountains.

      They still don’t believe in outer space.

      Some things you just have to see and experience for yourself or you’ll never get it.

      1. Steve,

        Santa Claus was always nice to me.

        Generous and jolly.

        Great taste in clothes!

        A good example.

        I do not believe that believing in Santa Claus brought any harm, at all.

        Just increased my feeling in the essential goodness of the world.

        Perhaps adults need Santa Claus as much – or more than children do.


        Merry October!


  9. Anyone interested in cancer research might be interested in this:


    I am happy tonight.

    I just bought 10-year very tiny micro smoke detectors that I can mount on the walls so that I don’t have to climb onto step stools or change batteries.

    I can mount them where I can reach them. What a fabulous concept.

    I also bought my Tesla package for solar at the very right time, after it went down 30% and today they announced the batteries are going up in price because the demand is so high. I credit God because only He could give me the timing that I threaded the needle on solar and will get their best discount and the Federal and State credits. Perfect timing again.

        1. Cold comfort for those with terminal cancer, Alzheimer’s or e.g. the inhabitants of Hitler’s concentration camps, I’d imagine.

  10. If you believe the creation account in Genesis, as I do, the original diet was fruit, grains, grains nuts and vegetables – and the lifespan reached almost to 1,000 years. After the flood when meat became part of the diet the life average span dropped to around 70 – 90 years. Water in those days would have come from creeks and rivers and contained B12.

    1. I stopped reading and using any kind of comment section or social media site because of the low quality of the comments everywhere. Now I’ll have to abandon Nutrition facts as well. There seems to be no part of the Internet that the psychos and religious nuts have not taken a sh*t on.

      Nutritionfacts focuses on SCIENCE and EVIDENCE-BASED nutrition. What are you religious people doing on this website? Science and the scientific method are your enemy. Go away! Never mind, I’ll go away. You can have the entire Internet for your lunatic raving.

    2. “the original diet was fruit, grains, grains nuts and vegetables”

      Uh – try Genesis 4:

      “4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
      2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
      3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
      4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
      5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.”

      It looks like God is no vegetarian. God seems to favor lamb.

      Sometimes Vegetarians have a little trouble over this.

      The matter has even led to tension between brothers: e.g., Cain and Abel. But that’s another story.


      Or we can reach back to Genesis 1:

      23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
      24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
      25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
      26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


      Then there’s Jesus feeding the multitude. This was not a one-off – Jesus did it twice:

      Feeding the five thousand:

      17 And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes.
      18 He said, Bring them hither to me.
      19 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
      20 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.
      21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
      Matthew 17:13-21

      Feeding the four thousand:

      34 And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes.
      35 And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground.
      36 And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
      37 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full.
      38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
      Matthew 15:34-38

      By his actions – Jesus promoted at least a pescatarian lifestyle. To the masses. Twice.

      And he seemed to be very comfortable with grains. Bread. To the masses. Twice.


      Also plenty of references of Jesus of interest:

      “The Lord is my Shepherd ” Psalm 23.

      Note bene; not “The Lord is my Gardner.”

      “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” Mathew 4:19

      Not “Follow Me, and I will make you gatherers of men.”

      Jesus seems to have been to be very comfortable with flocks and fish.

      No Verbal Vegetarian, He.


      Then there’s wine:

      2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
      2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
      3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
      4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
      5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
      6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
      7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
      8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
      9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
      10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
      11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
      John 2:1-11

      Hey – when Jesus made wine – he made the good stuff!

      Jesus did not mess around.


      We do not have the full menu of The Last Supper.

      We know that there was bread – again, Jesus did not seem to have any problem with grain.


      Then there is the Qurʾān.

      I do not pretend to be a Scholar of the Qurʾān – I intend no disrespect – I am most happy to defer to those who are.

      We do not have the actual menu – this is what we have – quoting:

      “This is when the disciples request Jesus to ask God for the table Spread in the verse 112 and 113 of the Sura:

      When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is your Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven? He said: Reverence God, if you are true believers. They said: We desire that we should eat from it and that our hearts may be at peace, and that we may know that you have indeed spoken the truth to us and that we may be of among the witnesses to it.

      Hearing this, Jesus goes on to pray to God for the table spread with heavenly food.

      Jesus the son of Mary said: O Allah, our Lord! Send down for us a table spread with food from heaven, that it may be a feast (Eid) for us, for the first of us and for the last of us, and a sign from You. Give us sustenance, for You are the Best of Sustainers. The Qur’an 5:114

      God then accepts Jesus’s prayer, but with a warning.

      Allah said: Surely I will send it down to you, but whoever shall disbelieve afterwards from among you, surely I will chastise him with a chastisement with which I will not chastise, anyone among the nations. The Qur’an 5:115 ”

      There is much in the Bible.

      There is much in the Qurʾān.


      All the best –


      1. Thanks Vivamus some valid comments, nevertheless before man sinned the diet was fruit grains and nuts and sacrifices were not made then. Vegetables were added after Adam and eve were driven the ga from the garden. Kind regards -Matthew

  11. It´s unbelievable that this site allows fairy tales to be used as a “tool” for debating. All in the name of “tolerance”, I guess? Good moderating…

  12. there are too many ‘may be’, ‘appears to be’. and ‘association to’ in most of dr. gregers videos. not so in the opposition claims. also, he should sharply curtail his constant use of metaphors.

    1. I have never seen a study that didn’t end with maybes. At the bottom is where the qualifying happens in study after study but I cannot prove that it happens in every single study.

      He couldn’t even post one video on any topic if he used your standard.

      Not one.

      1. Start naming any studies where there have been 100% results with no ambiguity.

        If you want Dr Greger to lie or just fake everything then this site will become useless pretty fast.

        1. Steve,

          Name his opponents that do that.

          I am fascinated that you refer to other doctors as opponents.

          How about colleagues and friends of his?

          I do not know one of them that only talks double-blind placebo-controlled studies. Dr. Greger does a history of a topic and how it builds and that is so critically important for understanding the topics. He does do double-blind placebo-controlled studies most of all types of studies but he also puts how the scientific logic built over time on a topic and that is incredibly valuable.

          It is okay if I lost all credibility in your eyes.

          But I will point out that you don’t have to put everything in an “all credibility” black or white totality every single time and the Whole Food Plant-Based movement doesn’t need opponents. His peers respect him and respect what he is doing here and I have not heard one expert or scientist or researcher from that movement come against Dr. Greger at all.

          I really would like you to give the name of even one doctor who never mentions the other studies when they do a topic. Most of the doctors in this movement mention all the available studies as how they come to their decisions about topics.

    2. “there are too many ‘may be’, ‘appears to be’. and ‘association to’ in most of dr. gregers video’

      That’s the language of scientific research. If you want nutritional certainty, there is any number of quacks and charlatans on YouTube peddling ‘facts’ about diet and health.

        1. Tom,

          What I will agree with you about is that most of the famous doctors may actually just present the information more dramatically and authoritatively even when that isn’t what the studies say.

          1. ‘famous doctors’ = entrepeneurial doctors = doctors more interested in making a quick buck than promoting good science?

      1. Tom, you are correct, many nutritional studies cannot be performed with double blind studies and other scientific methods must be used; even observation is still scientific. Unfortunately this site has been invaded by charlatan trolls bent on declaring they know the best diet and trying to argue through intellectual intimidation that they are correct and everyone else here are bozo’s and armchair knee jerkers.

        1. Yes, this site is very tolerant of people with weird and wonderful beliefs.

          I think the policy is dictated by the principle of ‘you (can) catch more flies with honey than (with) vinegar’ The aim seems to be to get the message out as widely as possible even if that means turning a blind eye to some rather eccentric viewpoints.

        2. Joe Vegan,

          Thanks for weighing in.

          Every topic in science starts off with studies that are not double-blind. Those are part of the process.

          I feel like Dr Greger does an excellent process of showing the complete logic and then he throws in his signature “until now” and I feel like that whole process and his metaphors are what help me understand things better.

          But to Steve, I didn’t mean to get snarky. Dr Greger is all about the double-blind placebo-controlled studies. It is just that his videos attempt to show a deeper history to help lay people understand better and it works for me. I have no science nor nutrition nor medical nor statistical understanding and have only 5% function in a few areas of my brain and came here having hallucinations and night terrors and psychotic breaks but I could stay up all night watching videos and kept learning because of Dr Greger’s process. The other doctors did a process that was harder for me to follow.

        3. Joe Vegan Tom, you are correct, many nutritional studies cannot be performed with double blind studies and other scientific methods must be used; even observation is still scientific.

          Therein lies the root of the problem. My observations are deemed unscientific and that I’m a charlatan trolls bent on declaring that I know the best diet.

          Joe, I have supported my comments with legitimate reasoned observations. You calling me a charlatan troll is more of the same and why I was wound up. It’s irritating to see stuffed shirts pontificate yet be unwilling to try and actually prove me wrong instead of blabbering like you just did.

          I am not using intellectual intimidation, I’m trying to induce you to practice what you preach – some actual effort to prove me right or wrong without cheating.

          So far I’m not impressed. Don’t bother to be intimidated by me. Just get off your ass and try and eat properly. That is all I’m about. What is so hard about that? Are you people all afraid of getting healthy? Do you think you will get sick because you stopped eating whole grain glue?

    3. steve,

      That’s how science works: by the preponderance of the evidence. There is always a chance that a conclusion, based upon the observations or study results, is incorrect. So such conclusions are open to revision or even reversal if newer, better evidence is obtained. There is no absolute certainty, only a high degree (or not so high degree) of certainty. Thus, the words “may,” “seems,” “appears” modify conclusions. Scientific knowledge evolves. And improves.

      If you want certainty, you can consult your so-called “opposition.” But that’s one way you know that their position is not science-based, or evidence-based: the certainty that the position is correct.

  13. I have just recently started doing Google Trends searches and what surprised me was how few people search for Paleo at all. Anywhere.

    I was also surprised at how high the interest in Keto is in multiple countries. It has bounced back somewhat and leveled off from the spring.


    Most other diets are flatlined.

    I did the Plant-Based doctors and Dr. Greger won by a mile.

    Just like I thought. Entertainment has some value.


    Dr. Barnard and Dr. Greger are getting around the world. Dr. Barnard has surprising coverage.

    But that is until I put the television doctors.

    1. Deb,
      I find it interesting to see so much said about the topic of nutrition. I first started patching together the plant based nutritionists after watching Forks Over Knives several years ago. I’ve been hanging out at this site ever since.

  14. Nope, The Doctors – most of the Google searches are because people want to win prizes. I didn’t notice that they put that type of information. Just learning it.

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