Flashback Friday: Which Type of Protein Is Better for Our Kidneys?

Flashback Friday: Which Type of Protein Is Better for Our Kidneys?
4.77 (95.45%) 66 votes

Anti-inflammatory drugs abolish the hyperfiltration and protein leakage response to meat ingestion, suggesting that animal protein causes kidney stress through an inflammatory mechanism.

Discuss
Republish

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio.

Between 1990 and 2010, some of our leading causes of death and disability haven’t changed. Heart disease was the leading cause of loss of life and health then and remains the leading cause today. Some things got better, like HIV/AIDS, but others got worse, like chronic kidney disease, a doubling in the tens of thousands of deaths and the hundreds of thousands whose kidneys fail completely, requiring kidney transplants or lifelong dialysis. About one in eight of us now have chronic kidney disease whether we know it or not. And, most of those with kidney disease don’t know it—about three-quarters of the millions affected are unaware their kidneys are starting to fail, which is particularly worrisome given that early identification provides an opportunity to slow the progression and alter the course of disease. So, what can we do about it?

The Western-style diet is a major risk factor for impaired kidney function and chronic kidney disease, also known as the Meat-Sweet Diet, or Standard American Diet, causing an impairment of kidney blood flow, inflammation, and subsequent leakage of protein in the urine, and a rapid decrease in kidney function. Table sugar and high-fructose corn syrup are associated with increased blood pressure and uric acid levels that can both damage the kidney. The saturated fat, trans fat, and cholesterol found in animal fat and junk food negatively impact kidney function. The consumption of animal fat can actually alter kidney structure. And, animal protein can deliver an acid load to the kidneys, increase ammonia production, and damage the sensitive kidney cells. That’s why restricting protein intake is recommended for preventing kidney function decline, though it may be animal protein, in particular, not just protein in general; so, the source of the protein, plant versus animal, may be more important than the amount regarding adverse health consequences.

Animal protein intake has a profound effect on normal human kidney function, inducing what’s called hyperfiltration, increasing the workload of the kidney.

This may help explain why our kidneys fail so often. Unlimited intake of protein-rich foods, now generally regarded as “normal,” may be responsible for dramatic differences in kidney function between modern human beings and their remote predecessors who hunted and scavenged for meat here and there. Sustained, rather than intermittent, excesses of protein require us to call on our kidney reserves continuously, causing a kind of unrelenting stress on our kidneys that can predispose even healthy people to progressive kidney scarring and deterioration of kidney function. On the other hand, administration of an equal quantity of vegetable protein does not appear to have the same effects.

Eating meat, for example, increases the workload on the kidneys within hours of consumption, but apparently, taking care of plant protein appears to be a cinch. This was done with beef, but any animal protein will do. Eat a meal of tuna fish, and you can see the pressure on the kidneys go up again within just hours, for both non-diabetics with normal kidneys, and diabetics with normal kidneys. If instead of having a tuna salad sandwich, we had a tofu salad sandwich with the same amount of protein, no effect.

And, same thing happens with eggs and dairy protein, both in people with normal and diseased kidneys.

Short-term studies have indicated that substituting plant protein, like soy, for animal protein is associated with less hyperfiltration and protein leakage, therefore, slowing deterioration of kidney function. However, the long-term effect had not been adequately studied, until this study was published in 2014. A 6-month double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial, soy versus dairy protein, and the consumption of whole soy tended to preserve renal function compared with milk in individuals with lowered renal function. Similar results were reported in diabetics. Even just giving isolated soy protein appeared to make things better, compared to dairy protein which made things worse.

Once one’s kidneys have deteriorated to the point that they’re actively losing protein in the urine, a plant-based diet may help turn it off and on, like a light switch. Here’s protein leakage on a standard low sodium diet, switched to a supplemented vegan diet, then low sodium, then vegan, then low sodium, then vegan.

What is going on? Why does animal protein cause that overload reaction, but not plant protein? It appears to be an inflammatory response triggered by the animal protein. We know this because administration of a powerful anti-inflammatory drug abolished the hyperfiltration, protein leakage response to meat ingestion. Here’s the typical kidney stress response to a meat meal, but here’s with the anti-inflammatory drug, confirming the role of inflammation in the impact of animal protein on our kidneys.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Images thanks to jpmatth via flickr

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio.

Between 1990 and 2010, some of our leading causes of death and disability haven’t changed. Heart disease was the leading cause of loss of life and health then and remains the leading cause today. Some things got better, like HIV/AIDS, but others got worse, like chronic kidney disease, a doubling in the tens of thousands of deaths and the hundreds of thousands whose kidneys fail completely, requiring kidney transplants or lifelong dialysis. About one in eight of us now have chronic kidney disease whether we know it or not. And, most of those with kidney disease don’t know it—about three-quarters of the millions affected are unaware their kidneys are starting to fail, which is particularly worrisome given that early identification provides an opportunity to slow the progression and alter the course of disease. So, what can we do about it?

The Western-style diet is a major risk factor for impaired kidney function and chronic kidney disease, also known as the Meat-Sweet Diet, or Standard American Diet, causing an impairment of kidney blood flow, inflammation, and subsequent leakage of protein in the urine, and a rapid decrease in kidney function. Table sugar and high-fructose corn syrup are associated with increased blood pressure and uric acid levels that can both damage the kidney. The saturated fat, trans fat, and cholesterol found in animal fat and junk food negatively impact kidney function. The consumption of animal fat can actually alter kidney structure. And, animal protein can deliver an acid load to the kidneys, increase ammonia production, and damage the sensitive kidney cells. That’s why restricting protein intake is recommended for preventing kidney function decline, though it may be animal protein, in particular, not just protein in general; so, the source of the protein, plant versus animal, may be more important than the amount regarding adverse health consequences.

Animal protein intake has a profound effect on normal human kidney function, inducing what’s called hyperfiltration, increasing the workload of the kidney.

This may help explain why our kidneys fail so often. Unlimited intake of protein-rich foods, now generally regarded as “normal,” may be responsible for dramatic differences in kidney function between modern human beings and their remote predecessors who hunted and scavenged for meat here and there. Sustained, rather than intermittent, excesses of protein require us to call on our kidney reserves continuously, causing a kind of unrelenting stress on our kidneys that can predispose even healthy people to progressive kidney scarring and deterioration of kidney function. On the other hand, administration of an equal quantity of vegetable protein does not appear to have the same effects.

Eating meat, for example, increases the workload on the kidneys within hours of consumption, but apparently, taking care of plant protein appears to be a cinch. This was done with beef, but any animal protein will do. Eat a meal of tuna fish, and you can see the pressure on the kidneys go up again within just hours, for both non-diabetics with normal kidneys, and diabetics with normal kidneys. If instead of having a tuna salad sandwich, we had a tofu salad sandwich with the same amount of protein, no effect.

And, same thing happens with eggs and dairy protein, both in people with normal and diseased kidneys.

Short-term studies have indicated that substituting plant protein, like soy, for animal protein is associated with less hyperfiltration and protein leakage, therefore, slowing deterioration of kidney function. However, the long-term effect had not been adequately studied, until this study was published in 2014. A 6-month double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial, soy versus dairy protein, and the consumption of whole soy tended to preserve renal function compared with milk in individuals with lowered renal function. Similar results were reported in diabetics. Even just giving isolated soy protein appeared to make things better, compared to dairy protein which made things worse.

Once one’s kidneys have deteriorated to the point that they’re actively losing protein in the urine, a plant-based diet may help turn it off and on, like a light switch. Here’s protein leakage on a standard low sodium diet, switched to a supplemented vegan diet, then low sodium, then vegan, then low sodium, then vegan.

What is going on? Why does animal protein cause that overload reaction, but not plant protein? It appears to be an inflammatory response triggered by the animal protein. We know this because administration of a powerful anti-inflammatory drug abolished the hyperfiltration, protein leakage response to meat ingestion. Here’s the typical kidney stress response to a meat meal, but here’s with the anti-inflammatory drug, confirming the role of inflammation in the impact of animal protein on our kidneys.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Images thanks to jpmatth via flickr

177 responses to “Flashback Friday: Which Type of Protein Is Better for Our Kidneys?

Comment Etiquette

On NutritionFacts.org, you'll find a vibrant community of nutrition enthusiasts, health professionals, and many knowledgeable users seeking to discover the healthiest diet to eat for themselves and their families. As always, our goal is to foster conversations that are insightful, engaging, and most of all, helpful – from the nutrition beginners to the experts in our community.

To do this we need your help, so here are some basic guidelines to get you started.

The Short List

To help maintain and foster a welcoming atmosphere in our comments, please refrain from rude comments, name-calling, and responding to posts that break the rules (see our full Community Guidelines for more details). We will remove any posts in violation of our rules when we see it, which will, unfortunately, include any nicer comments that may have been made in response.

Be respectful and help out our staff and volunteer health supporters by actively not replying to comments that are breaking the rules. Instead, please flag or report them by submitting a ticket to our help desk. NutritionFacts.org is made up of an incredible staff and many dedicated volunteers that work hard to ensure that the comments section runs smoothly and we spend a great deal of time reading comments from our community members.

Have a correction or suggestion for video or blog? Please contact us to let us know. Submitting a correction this way will result in a quicker fix than commenting on a thread with a suggestion or correction.

View the Full Community Guidelines

  1. Which type of protein is better? All together now: Animal protein, of course! Are we to believe NF considers other options? :-)

    From: https://www.pritzkerlaw.com/personal-injury/2018/10-suffer-hus-kidney-failure-in-romaine-lettuce-e-coli-o157h7-outbreak/

    “Ten people who are among the 98 now sickened by romaine lettuce contaminated with E. coli have developed hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), a form of kidney failure, according to an outbreak update released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) today.”

    https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2018/11/publishers-platform-revive-the-mdp/

    1. Yr(Cool Kitty) thanks for your comment. The information on todays topic is very important for people to learn as unfortunately a lot of individuals get hooked on high protein diet and not know the facts and science and body response to a particular food and nutrient. Dr Greger gathers the science for us all to be informed. As for the unfortunate outbreaks of food contamination and food saftey which happens due to number of causes.

      1. spring(03), should there have been more added to your last sentence? Looks a bit incomplete.

        Maybe you meant to insert the words “he does” between As and for. (?)

        1. The recent case of the e.coli contamination of romaine lettuce is a situation in which the lettuce was contaminated – poisoned – by an outside vector. The lettuce itself does not cause kidney disease. E. Coli, whether it is on lettuce, hamburger (as in the Jack-in-the-Box e.coli poisoning and death of children in California years ago), in a milkshake or contamination by failure of a restaurant worker to wash his/her hands after using the toilet, is a serious and deadly poison no matter how it is transferred to one’s mouth. The lettuce, itself, and without e. coli, does not cause kidney damage and failure. YR(cool kitty) is unfortunately comparing apples to oranges.

          1. Okay, I’ll rephrase my unfortunate sentence: “The post was merely to show that kidney problems can be caused by means/occurrences other than by just eating animal foods.”

    2. Animal protein is processed with ammonia to kill the natural pathogens. Ii is unsafe in its natural form, and that is why it also has to be cooked. Vegetable protein is naturally safe.

      You could also make a moon rock safe to eat if there was money to extract

      1. LOL, Panchito, thanks for your tidbit.

        I am not sure about the moon rock, but I once swallowed the marble from a game called Mousetrap. It flew into my open mouth thus ending the game.

        I think it was the first time my family played it and the game disappeared shortly after that. If I were playing the game Clue, I would say, my mother, in the kitchen with a garbage bag.

        Never checked to see if it came out the other side.

    3. The WSJ had an excellent Op-Ed page article today regarding this subject. Odds are overwhelmingly against anyone contracting e-coli from Romaine lettuce or any other vegetable, so no need to panic!

      1. B’Healthy!

        You are telling me that the Press has blown things out of proportion?!?!

        How surprising!

        I need to read up on that.

    4. Hi I’m a health support volunteer. Of course there are many things that can cause kidney damage. No one has suggested it is only animal protein. But there is sufficient evidence that a high animal protein diet is inflammatory and negatively impacts kidney function. There are certainly other causes- medications, infections like e-coli. When vegetables get contaminated with pathogens like this, it is usually due to contamination from animal waste. Vegetables don’t naturally carry e-coli or salmonella and other typical sources of food born illness.

  2. It frustrates me so much that they don’t tell kidney patients this at all.

    In fact, they drill into them that they are worried about them being too low protein and tell them to eat three egg omelets and things like that.

    My cousin hates dialysis so much and he is getting so angry with medical as a whole now. He considers them all uncaring and hard-hearted and greedy and money oriented.

    I was mad at them when every doctor pushed him to eat more protein and particularly – more animal protein -2 kidney stages ago.

    1. If anyone comes here with kidney issues, watch this one and the plant potassium and The Rice Diet videos.

      People are told the opposite by every single doctor and are pushed toward dialysis.

      I

      1. It’s the same with heart disease type videos. Our doctors dismiss wfpb idea as the cure-all. The studies are too small, and patients are self selecting they say, or other issues. The mediterranean type of diet, or blue-zone kind of thing gets approval. I, myself, am coming under pressure to be referred to a dietition for nutritional counselling.

        1. “I, myself, am coming under pressure to be referred to a dietition for nutritional counselling.”
          – – – – – –

          Barb, you could always go and then say “no” to what they suggest.

          Just like when a medical doc writes out a prescription, you can choose not to have it filled. It’s always up to us what we do or don’t put into our bodies, right?

          1. YR, yes of course, and it might be interesting to see what they have to say. My doc reminds me that it isn’t just about what we eat, it’s what we absorb too. I would think this is where individuals might vary in how they do year over year even given the same diet. Also, for an athletic guy eating great volumes wfpb it might be different than a petite woman consuming 1400 cal worth. It might be a question to take to the dietition.

            1. Barb,

              Just know that the dieticians and nutritionists are likely not doing the process either.

              My cousin went to some of those who were worse than the doctors.

              He was so frustrated because on his own, using things like calorie restriction, he was able to get to the place of not needing insulin most of the time, but the dieticians and nutritionists couldn’t do the process for both diabetes and kidney failure at the same time. He kept telling them, I have been managing my own Diabetes for decades. I am coming to you because I need to be able to have the logic for how to eat with Diabetes and Kidney Failure and you don’t seem to know how to do that.

              He also went to naturopaths who tried to get him to take supplements which were contraindicated with kidney problems and at many points in the process all of the doctors and the nutritionists were saying different things. Often opposite.

              1. I had him watch this video and he slowed down the progression toward Dialysis – delaying it for over a year, but they kept telling him to eat animal proteins and it was so hard for him to figure out who to listen to.

                Once they started adding in the Potassium and Phosphorous logic, it became so hard for him to eat healthy at all and his Diabetes stopped being managed once he went on Dialysis. He said that it is much harder for him to get his blood glucose under control again after having it under control for 30 years or more.

          2. “I, myself, am coming under pressure to be referred to a dietition for nutritional counselling.”
            – – – – – –

            Barb, you could always go and then say “no” to what they suggest.
            ——————————————————————————————————————————-

            Or you can do what I did… meet with them and educate them. ‘-)

        2. Yes, doctors and vets are not doing the same processes we are doing. They dismiss all of it.

          My dog looked so good this morning that I am back to wanting to have him scanned soon, but don’t want to pay for it the same month as I pay for Christmas presents.

          He went outside and walked to the very property line of every corner of our yard and went out twice almost in a row. He wants a walk, but I had promised to not give him walks. It is getting closer to me just disregarding everything the vet says because he is doing so much better with each thing I do on my own. The vet is telling me to not exercise him because he wants his blood pressure to stay low, but I have water fasted him and fed him vegan and there is 100% chance that his blood pressure is much lower than it was and KetoPet sanctuary has healed a dog with the same type of Cancer my dog has and they exercise their dogs daily.

          I feel like he has so much more energy and strength and he doesn’t have signs of infection. It is frustrating that my keeping him alive for 6 months isn’t enough to get some “Wow, I am really amazed” responses.

          The vet is such a nice man, but he doesn’t understand any of it.

          1. I feel like he has so much more energy and strength and he doesn’t have signs of infection. It is frustrating that my keeping him alive for 6 months isn’t enough to get some “Wow, I am really amazed” responses.
            ———————————————————————————————————————————
            Atta Boy Girl!

            You’ve done an amazing thing that the majority would not have attempted. Don’t know how long the TLC you’ve given dog will extend its life, but at least you’ve proven it can be done.

        3. Barb, my brother, who was overweight and out of shape and eventually diagnosed with diabetes (as well as on other meds, such as for high cholesterol and high BP, etc etc), changed his eating to vegetarian and then plant based whole foods, and started exercising, eventually lost 70 pounds and went off all his meds — that brother just told me that his insurance company is scolding his PCP for “allowing” my brother to stop taking his statins last year, despite my brother controlling his cholesterol very well through diet and exercise!! (He also doesn’t smoke or drink alcohol.) Both his PCP and cardiologist support his WFPB eating. But still. I think this is outrageous. I wonder what his doctor’s response was? That ALL his patients should do what my brother did? I think I’ll ask.

          1. Dr J, I am so happy for your brother’s success in turning around his situation. Good on him! And, great that at least he has his doctors’ support with the wfpb eating!

            note also to sue who writes below of her success in keeping kidney disease at bay with her diet of plants. Well done! I have been looking at some later stages vegan diet sample menus that frankly look terrible sue ! I would think that whatever we can do to maintain as much kidney function as we can early on is worth every effort. btw, GFR rises and falls in my case also. Fasting and non-fasting seems to make a difference too.

            1. Barb, my brother just told me that his doctor sent my brother’s health insurance company the doctor’s explanation and information about my brother’s lifestyle and health. I guess that was the end of it. And my brother told me that he has changed doctors in the past — I don’t recall which one(s) — to those who support/advocate wfpb eating. About 2 years ago, my brother took a course on healthy living (eating, cooking, exercise, etc) from https://www.chiphealth.com; it was offered in Rochester, NY, where he lives. I think he may have said that his health insurance company paid for part to all of the course costs. (If so, it sounds like the right hand giveth, and the left hand taketh.) I believe that Dr. Greger has reported that this is a very successful program.

              Meanwhile, I wish you good health!

              1. My thanks to you and your brother for sharing your experiences with this Dr J. I know other NF fans appreciate it also. Very interesting about the chip program. After I saw the video here months ago I looked up Hans Diehl on youtube. https://nutritionfacts.org/video/chip-the-complete-health-improvement-program/ There I watched several talks given by Hans about plant based eating, about the Adventist health studies, heart disease, etc. Really great. It’s so encouraging and inspiring (to me) to see people reaching out and grabbing the opportunity to change their health destiny.

          2. Wow!

            An insurance company micromanaging in that direction is surprising to me.

            Genuinely.

            I know that they do micromanage, but I had never heard them micromanaging in that direction.

        4. The referral for nutritional counseling is proof they offered required prevention information. It doesn’t mean the doc believes in it any more than you do.

          They don’t need an uncooperative patient who will not help them maintain their quota.

          Even though it’s an irritating waste, if you value the doc’s diagnositc ability, then you need to demonstrate your support in ways that matter to the doc.

          1. Bette,

            Yes, those of us who value those relationships do try to cooperate.

            I have been trying to do that with my dog’s vet and he is so medical model and I am clearly changing his diet oriented that it has been challenging.

            It will be a victory if I have changed his mind at all, but it cost me ten thousand dollars which coincidentally would have finished my house renovation.

        5. This is because, as the American Heart Association states

          ‘ Finally, we note that a trial has never been conducted to test the effect on CHD outcomes of a low-fat diet that increases intake of healthful nutrient dense carbohydrates and fiber-rich foods such as whole grains, vegetables, fruits,and legumes that are now recommended in dietary guidelines.’
          https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000510

          The implication is pretty clear though. The diet recommended in the dietary guidelines – fruit, vegetables, whole grains, minimise transfat, saturated fat and cholesterol – is in everything but name a whole food pant based diet. This is the diet to prevent and treat heart disease. The Blue Zone and Mediterranean diets deliver better results than the SAD or conventional low fat diets to the extent that they increase fruit, vegetable and whole grain consumption and exclude animal foods and processed plant foods. Dr G’s videos on the Mediterranean diet are worth revisiting eg
          https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000510

          IMHO, it’s important though to keep supplementing with B12

          ‘Vitamin B12 deficiency may negate the cardiovascular disease prevention benefits of vegetarian diets. In order to further reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease, vegetarians should be advised to use vitamin B12 supplements.’
          https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(15)00073-2/fulltext

          1. Tom,

            Thanks for your post.

            That last sentence about B-12 deficiency negating the cardiovascular disease prevention benefits of this diet is one which should be posted in big letters on every vegan website. Don’t mess up the statistics, take your B-12!

        6. Maybe it is time to wake up. In general, doctors learn a bunch of assumptions, which are contextual assumptions that represent certainty. But the real context is a business model which is supposed to make them successful by selling procedures and drugs. Diet does not bring them money and therefore it is not part of the business. They have learn certainty but only on things that can bring them money, ignoring everything else. They selectively filter a cure for you. But what if your problem was a diet problem and not a pill problem?

          1. Panchito,

            what if your problem was a diet problem..

            That is what they don’t acknowledge at all.

            Them not acknowledging the possibility that diet could reverse conditions is what is fristrating.

      2. IMHO, most docs merely preside over the slide that early-stage CKD patients take down to end-stage and dialysis. Many kidney docs own in part or whole, the hugely profitable dialysis facilities and are thus dis-incentivized to stop that slide. Between this and the cavalier attitude that docs generally take toward any illness that they can’t cut or drug for profit, docs are totally worthless for early-stage CKD except for ordering labs. If I could order my own labs, I would have no use for the nephrologist whatsoever. And so far, 6 years in with no worsening at all of my stage 3A CKD now that I’ve stopped taking most pharmaceuticals, I think I’m doing pretty well on my own. I think so-called kidney disease is hugely misunderstood and vastly over diagnosed to start with, at least for those who have no clinical evidence of stones or polycystic disease etc. In CKD, if the kidney is “diseased” and damaged, i.e. if the actual cells are destroyed, then how should we interpret the data when both creatinine and GFR can rise and fall indicating a cycle of worsening and then improving of the kidney function? One would think that if the kidney cells are damaged beyond repair we would not ever see any improvement in the labs. Something just doesn’t add up.

        1. Sue,

          I had the same thought. With my grandmother, they were talking Dialysis, but between the first tests and the test where the specialist would be talking with her, I did a whole bunch of things – dietary and hydration and a little bit with gadgets and by the time the specialist saw the results, he said, and I quote, “I have no idea why you are here. You have more chance of getting hit by a Mack Truck than going on dialysis.”

        2. Perhaps we should think of it as a matter of degree rather than either all cells are damaged beyiond repair or no cells are damaged beyond repair?

    2. Hi Deb, thanks for your comment. I understand your point however, dialysis patients require more protein because of protein loss during dialysis and increased body needs. It is more difficult for vegetarian dialysis patients to consume enough protein and keep potassium and phosphorus controlled without using a protein supplement—this is especially true for those who are vegans, because no eggs or milk products are consumed. So making sure enough calories is taken. Including vegetarian source of protein or options for example protein supplements, phosphate binders, a lower potassium dialysate for those on dialysis to control potassium levels. I hope these information are useful to you.

      1. Spring03 (volunteer) – I understand why a dialysis patient might need additional protein. But why couldn’t a dialysis patient use a concentrated vegan protein like seitan? (made from vital wheat gluten for those who don’t know).

      2. Spring,

        I was talking before dialysis, when my cousin wanted to try to prevent it.

        Dr McDougall said that if patients go low enough in animal proteins they can often avoid it, but the doctors didn’t believe that way.

        1. Spring,

          But, yes, your comments are very useful because now he is doing dialysis and the logic has changed, but his diabetes is out of control and he no longer knows how to manage it, after 30+ years of managing it easily. They can’t help him and he is frustrated. I am trying to learn the logic and your sentences help. I want to get him the magnet belt and see if it really could get him off dialysis. They might be con artists, but I know that PEMF has worked for people and LOw Level Laser.

          1. Spring, so are you saying that this video wouldn’t hold true for a dialysis patient?

            Or, at what point would you switch logic?

            I wrote the last comment and realized that I would have no idea when to switch tracks. The Rice Diet was trying to reverse kidney failure and “reverse” would always be my goal and I don’t see how you could reverse it with animal protein.

            When I listened to the Food Revolution Summit, they spoke about a person who had been on a transplant list and who had gone blind reversing both things with WFPB. If there is a point to switch logic tracks, how do you know when?

  3. Excellent video–I love the ones loaded with information. On Flashback Friday I’m always interested in WHEN the video was originally published. Please,could the original date be mentioned in the Doctor’s Note? Thanks!

    1. Vegaguy, I agree that I look for dates and there aren’t any and I am not all that date oriented normally, but I have only been here for a year and find myself trying to figure out whether it was a video, which happened in my time period or before.

      1. I am laughing my head off. I am reading through all of the comments and got to my own comment and read: “I look for dates and there aren’t any” and I had no idea what was being communicated. Yes, I am not date oriented to the degree that the word date having a food meaning and a romantic dating meaning and a calendar dating meaning already threw me off.

  4. Egg protein is best protein for kidney patient.Its ASH is absolutely nil —-almost No NPN
    Milk protein is also better than animal protein
    Third comes animal protein.

    1. “Milk protein is also better than animal protein”
      – – – – – –

      Milk protein IS considered animal protein, isn’t it?

      What does ASH and NPN stand for?

      1. Hi YR(Cool Kitty)
        I assume the abbreviations of ASH and NPN that Dr Indira Sahajwalla, in the above is talking about is regarding Acid-Ash Diet: meat, fish, eggs, and cereals with little fruit or vegetables and no cheese and NPN I assume to be nutritional panel nitrogen which are Blood Urea,Serum Creatinine and Serum Uric acid. I shall also check with volunteer Drs at the site and will confirm once I get a definite response.

        1. Hi YR(Cool Kitty) after checking with Dr Manderson she mentioned that I was right. However NPN stands for “non protein nitrogen,” which includes urea, amino acid, uric acid, creatinine, and creatine, as I mentioned. She also points out that these substances have certain normal levels in the blood stream that can be altered in renal dysfunction. They contain nitrogen but aren’t complete proteins. As for ASH she also said Acid-Ash foods like I mentioned can increase citrate stones. Thanks for your question and thanks Dr Manderson for further explanation.

          1. spring03, it’s still all Greek to me, but thanks for your efforts. :-)

            I think what Dr. Indira was implying was that egg protein was the best choice BECAUSE of the “nil” (no) ASH and hardly any NPN. Which I guess is a good thing.

          2. Okay, so what I think I know is that an Acid-ash diet is opposite of an Alkaline diet.

            Acid ash is produced by meat, poultry, cheese, fish, eggs, and grains.
            Alkaline ash is produced by fruits and vegetables, except cranberries, prunes and plums. (including citrus)

            So how does it related to the kidneys. I am trying to follow the answer. Your kidneys help regulate the blood pH so, you wouldn’t want your blood being too acidic, right? (I believe that might be why they told my cousin to take Sodium Bicarbonate, while they were telling him also to eat 3 to 5 egg omelets?) Are eggs less acidic than meat? Is that her point?

            Sorry, some of us are trying to catch up with doctors who are racing past us in their understanding of things.

    2. My understanding is that phosphorous load is an important issue for kidney patients.

      Eggs, dairy and animal proteins generally are all high in phosphorous. So are nuts for that matter. IMO. they should therefore be avoided or at least minimised.

      ‘An analysis of phosphorus content (mg/100 g edible part) in the various food groups shows that the highest load comes from nuts, hard cheeses, egg yolk, meat, poultry and fish. Reporting the phosphorus content as mg per gram of protein (mg/g protein) is especially useful for identifying which foods supply less phosphorus with the same amount of protein. Based on the relationship between phosphorus and proteins, we assumed an upper limit of 12 mg/g to identify foods with a “favorable” phosphorus to protein ratio [6].

      Besides the absolute content, a crucial point is the net intestinal absorption of phosphorus. In general, intestinal absorption is lower for phosphorus of plant origin than for phosphorus of animal origin, such as from meat, fish, poultry and dairy products [7, 8].’
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4361095/

    1. Last I heard the CRISPR Cas/9 treatments were causing unintended consequences… that is, they were also changing off target genes. They believed they would eventually get that fixed.

      A new approach has been revealed by (I think) a British company… their targeting mutations or bad code using RNAi. So far they have fine tuned it to work for some liver problems but haven’t been approved for more widespread interventions.

      I’m gradually buying their stock in order to hopefully make enough profit to pay for their treatment should I need it someday. If they get a handle on this it could be the new Netflix or Amazon over the next decade or two. They claim to be a safer alternative to CRISPR.

        1. Did you hear that China had a researcher use Crispr on humans? Twins.
          ————————————————————————————-
          Saw a headline of China’s involvement in human trials but didn’t read the details. More interested in Western research ATM, since I believe it is done more safely in regard to human use.

          That is, there is cause for concern that some humans will have anti-bodies against the Cas/9 used for treatment. They’ll overcome that if they haven’t already. CRSPR may be more valuable to humanity, or equally so, for what it does for Agriculture.

          Monsanto has purchased a license to use CRSPR in knocking out or inserting new genes in food crops. They’ll be able to design crops that will grow in salt conditions for one thing, just by inserting a gene from crops that already have that capability. Monsanto had to agree to not make the change in the planting seed to work for one planting and then lose that capability keeping the farmer from saving seed from his harvest and planting the next year.

          CRSPR and RNAi (ribonucleic acid interference) work in similar ways (RNAi doesn’t knockout a gene entirely but allows it to be turned back on if determined it is needed, while CRSPR permanently knocks out parts of, or inserts new code in a gene.

          Good times ahead.

    2. Deb, you said:

      Any thoughts from anyone on the Crispr situation with China already using gene editing in children?
      ——————————————————————————————–
      I replied:

      Last I heard the CRISPR Cas/9 treatments were causing unintended consequences… that is, they were also changing off target genes. They believed they would eventually get that fixed.
      __________________________________________________________________
      Then a few hours ago I read:

      Scientists crack the CRISPR code for precise human genome editing

      Scientists have discovered a set of surprisingly simple rules that determine the precision of CRISPR/Cas9 genome editing in human cells

      The Francis Crick Institute

      https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-12/tfci-sct121118.php

  5. This video had an Easter Egg in it… that is, a sidebar of information that most just pass over without it sinking in.

    I’m talking about the fact that an anti-inflammatory drug stopped the damaging behaviour of one or the other insults to the kidneys, simply by controlling inflammation.

    I read a few years ago of a study done by a University in Spain plus (I think) one of the Ivy League schools in the East. They came to the conclusion that diabetes for instance can be lived with just fine by controlling inflammation. I’m assuming this is also the case with kidney disease.

    There are many natural supplements that will help keep inflammation down.

    1. Yes Lonie, I caught that and therefore, I’m really not worried about much. From what I can gather inflammation seems to be one of the root causes of a few of our chronic disease like heart disease, kidney and autoimmune disease.

    2. Good eye, Lonie! Your editing is paying off!

      I was looking at the list of changes in disease and injuries and the “road injuries” improved even though distracted driving has increased so much. That fascinates me.

      Distracted driving deaths are what we hear about, so there have to be factors on the other side balancing it out.

      Well, the wealthier people have self-driving cars and have signals on every side which tell them when something is in their blind spots, so maybe that would be one factor? Maybe more cars with modern technologies? Maybe a newer generation, which is actually wearing their seat belts, which still wasn’t law back when I was a kid, so people rebelled? People used to do parental driver instruction and now they do driver’s ed? Wait, what I do know is that what my family and friends talk about is how many of the young people don’t really want to learn how to drive or get their driver’s license versus our generation people wanted it in high school. Some of my friends’ kids waited until they graduated college and some graduated college and still haven’t gotten one.

      1. Poor parents can’t afford to add their teenagers to the insurance anymore is partly why kids aren’t driving because parents make them pay for their own insurance and gas and that has gone up so much.

        It seems like there are a lot more “poor” wealthy people around. It is a phenomenon. They are “over-housed” and didn’t take into account changes in the stock market or taxes or utilities. I have lent money to people who make 4 times more than I do, when their power has been shut off or when they are stuck on the road in a different state needing to come home. We have a part of town, which has million dollar + houses and some of the people live in them without any furniture in half the rooms, because they can’t afford to furnish them. And, honestly, I had a sweet multi-multi-millionaire die this year – and he had more millions than I am old, but he had so many irons in the fire that his family immediately got in trouble.
        The first week. They couldn’t access any of their money and had bills to pay and we ended up helping them. They ended up closing down his businesses and selling properties to never end up in that position again, but it just goes to show you that people are often wealthy in property and cash poor.

    3. Lonie, I would appreciate knowing about these natural supplements that are proven to reduce or eliminate inflammation as opposed to using meds.

      Lida

      1. Hi Arbor,

        Just off the top of my head, White Willow Bark (forerunner to aspirin w/o the side effects) turmeric, ashwagandha (a natural mimetic of Metformin and Rapamycin.) astaxanthin, astragalus, green tea…

        Of course there are foods themselves that fight inflammation. A quick search found this Harvard study:
        https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/foods-that-fight-inflammation

        Some of the ones listed are:

        tomatoes.
        olive oil.
        green leafy vegetables, such as spinach, kale, and collards.
        nuts like almonds and walnuts.
        fatty fish like salmon, mackerel, tuna, and sardines.
        fruits such as strawberries, blueberries, cherries, and oranges.

        Nov 7, 2018

        Hope this helps… it just reminded me to go drink some tomato juice. ‘-)

          1. Thanks Lonie Anderson! Loved you on WKRP in Cincinnati.
            ———————————————————————-
            Heh, I think you have me confused with Loni… and IIRC, Burt said she was a real bitch so I’m quick to point out the difference (although she was kinda hot) ‘-)

              1. Oy guess now I know your gender!
                —————————————————-
                Heh, I know a guy that put female as his gender on his Facebook data. I didn’t go that far but I do use aliases for things like that. If anyone wants to steal the identity of Lonie, they can have all they can get from him. ‘-)

                1. Laughing my head off.

                  All of you are too obscure for me.

                  I laugh, because Lonie is a surname of a few male athletes, but if you look it up in the Urban Dictionary, you get:

                  “Lonie
                  1. She who kicks ass beyond belief.

                  2. The most incredible person you are ever likely to meet.

                  Beautiful beyond that of a goddess-like stature, possessing looks that literally can kill and makes the most divine and decadent siren look like someone who lives in a trashcan.

                  Sweeter than an industrial-size bathtub filled to the brim with English honey and melted lollipops.

                  More open-hearted than someone getting a ventricle or valve replaced on an operating table.

                  A woman who loves Doctor Who, vampires, Alice in Wonderland, big hugs and has (hopefully) a passing fancy in Batman.

                  An angelic soul. A role model. Someone truly worth giving it all for and then some. A marvellous, illuminating, precious individual, who warms your heart everytime you see her. Someone who always invokes the giddy, romantic, sentitmental side of you just by looking into your eyes. The very epitome of perfection. “

                  1. Heh, recently I was trying to get into my account to change my name to Hank Dewey, another of my nom de whatevers.

                    I guess I should try harder but to be honest, being thought of as female may be a good subterfuge… to protect my true identity. So in that vein Deb, please continue referring to me as she… you just may be doing me a great service by doing so. ‘-)

                    1. Didn’t Fumbles think you were of the “she” persuasion a while back…..until I (attempted to) set him straight? :-) (I think he’s now done seen the light.)

                      I know both a male Lonie and a female Lonie. Dunno if they spell their names the same way, though.

                    2. Didn’t Fumbles think you were of the “she” persuasion a while back…..until I (attempted to) set him straight? :-) (I think he’s now done seen the light.)
                      ———————————————————————————
                      Don’t be so sure he has “seen the light.”

                      That is, I have sort of a gift of being able to ascertain what a person’s train of thought may be, even over great distance. And though he’s been quiet on that front I can feel the gears in his head gnemeshing as he tries to figure this out.

                      I’m getting the vibe that he, knowing from my past posts that I am a writer, may see me as just obfuscating my true gender as I test my ability to write from a male or female POV.

                      I suspect he is analysing (maybe he now is wondering if using the s instead of the zed means I’m British?) my every post to uncover that mistake that will give away my actual gender.

                      The game is afoot!

                    3. I thought it was YR who wrote that Lonie was female while I said that I thought he was a ‘he’? The beard comments were a bit of a give-away for one thing.

                      Not important though – I am so totally self-absorbed that I don’t much bother with other people’s head games. it’s also not a big thing here in the Philippines. It’s a bit like Thailand in that a significant proportion of the male population seem to dress as women. And a fair number of women seem to sport moustaches for that matter. Lonie would probably blend in quite easily here.

                    4. I thought it was YR who wrote that Lonie was female while I said that I thought he was a ‘he’? The beard comments were a bit of a give-away for one thing.
                      —————————————————————————————–
                      Heh, my memory of it was that you referred to me as “she” after I referred to you as Greger’s Rottweiler. ‘-)

                      I assumed you did so in retaliation and even commended you for a game well played.
                      ____________________________________________________________________
                      I am so totally self-absorbed that I don’t much bother with other people’s head games. it’s also not a big thing here in the Philippines. It’s a bit like Thailand in that a significant proportion of the male population seem to dress as women. And a fair number of women seem to sport moustaches for that matter. Lonie would probably blend in quite easily here.
                      ———————————————————————————————————–
                      Philippines eh? Haven’t been there… or Thailand either. Spent some time in Vietnam but didn’t blend in there at all. Couldn’t wait to get out of there. ‘-)

                      Oddly though, wouldn’t mind going back now… for a visit.

                    5. Fumbles, your memory seems to be impaired — an old age thing, maybe? (Or maybe you need a change of diet?) Nope, we’re talking back in the days when NM Ron used to post. Both he and I thought Lonie was a he, and you distinctly referred to him as a she. Several times I noticed this.

                      At one point I even asked Lonie to set us straight regarding his gender. I can’t remember what thread this was in, but I kept looking for an answer from him; it seems he never saw my question. And when he and I talked about flying on broomsticks at Halloween time, I remember you even had the impression Lonie was a “she” witch. Nope, he’s a “he” witch….warlock, they call it? :-) And apparently you missed where I once called him an “ol’ geezer.” Aren’t geezers usually male? And yet you’re now saying I was the one who thought Lonie was a she!!! Good grief, man, should people start to worry about you?

                      When (more recently) Lonie talked about his beard, I thought “Ah, so maybe NOW Fumbles will know Lonie’s a he!”

                      (Females are known to be more intuitive about other people than males. I can pick up a lot about them from just reading their posts, for instance.)

                    6. I said, “(Or maybe you need a change of diet?)”
                      – – – – –

                      What do you think, Lonie….would fish eating help memory-challenged Fumbles?

                    7. Well, I don’t place much importance on remembering stuff like this but I thought that way back I ID’d him as a ‘he’ and then got persuaded he was a ‘she’ and then back again to a ‘he’. But then again, what’s all this got to do with the price of fish?
                      https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the+price+of+fish

                      As for a new name for Lonie, i’ve always had a sneaking admiration for this bloke’s moniker
                      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/nominative-determinism-hilariously-inappropriate-names-time/willie-stroker/

                    8. (Females are known to be more intuitive about other people than males. I can pick up a lot about them from just reading their posts, for instance.)
                      ———————————————————————————————–
                      Have to admit to mis-identifying the gender of some of the posters here. Case in point is Dr J.

                      Not that I assume that a female can’t be a Dr., but my mind often operates on automatic pilot. That is, I’ll be reading and thinking of something else at the same time before realizing I had just read a paragraph or two and what I read did not register.

                      This is sort of what happened when I read Dr. J I think, but my mind made the association with the basketball player Julius Erving… aka Dr. J.

                    9. YR said:
                      What do you think, Lonie….would fish eating help memory-challenged Fumbles?
                      ————————————————————————————————————-
                      For me, getting the 7 units of a young person’s plasma has helped (all aspects of) my brain function. Not sure but possibly the 2 cc’s of cord blood stem cells may be working as well… and yes, there’s the herring filets. ‘-)
                      __________________________________________________________
                      Fumbledor said:
                      Well, I don’t place much importance on remembering stuff like this…
                      —————————————————————————————–
                      This is my M.O. as well. And from what I’ve read, being able to discard information that one finds trivial enables us to have the “room” to remember those things which we deem more important.

      2. Lida,

        Do you eat fruits and vegetables and legumes and whole foods in general? Those are the natural supplements proven to reduce inflammation.

            1. Deb-25 wks . . . In the video you reference the cherries that were most effective for their antiinflammatory properties were the sweet bing cherries, not the tart ones. The tart ones were essentially ineffective in this particular set of studies.

              I once had a terrifically painful osteoarthritic flare up of inflammation in my hip joint at one point. I could not walk for a month and then hobbled for another couple. I used Cosamin ASU supplement and sweet bing cherries to reverse my situation. I’ve been fine ever since with no pain at all. I used the NF video Deb referenced above to help me heal.

        1. I do Deb! Was interested in perhaps adding the natural supplements Lonie mentioned to see if I could more quickly target my inflammation problem

          1. Was interested in perhaps adding the natural supplements Lonie mentioned to see if I could more quickly target my inflammation problem.
            ———————————————————————————————————–
            If I could only have one, it would be the White Willow Bark. And like Deb said, the Tart Cherry powder pills along with Tart Cherry juice… I also wonder if maybe ginger and cinnamon aren’t protective. And there are many herbal and spice teas that help do the job.

            1. Thanks Lonie
              I do need at least at this time to stay away from the foods that trigger reflux for me
              But there are some good options you mentioned
              I appreciate it

          2. Tree of Life –

            First, I like your name.

            Second, I say it because if you use the pill forms, they generally help better and quicker.

            Lonie had said that she doesn’t eat the food forms of some of the things. There will be cases when she needs supplements to make up for shortfalls.

            High antioxidant diet is what you want. Drink your green tea, sprinkle your turmeric and ginger and rosemary. Add cloves if you can find a way. If you can handle Amla or Triphala, use them, but make sure they are lab-tested.

            Dr. Greger said this: “Generally speaking, Mother Nature’s powers cannot be stuffed into a pill. Studies have repeatedly shown that antioxidant supplements, for example, do not seem to have any beneficial effects on respiratory or allergic diseases, underscoring the importance of eating whole foods rather than trying to take isolated components or extracts in pill form. The Harvard Nurses’ Health Study, for example, found that women who obtained high levels of vitamin E from a nut-rich diet appeared to have nearly half the asthma risk of those who didn’t, but those who took vitamin E supplements saw no benefit at all. Who do you think did better? Asthma patients who ate 7 daily servings of fruits and vegetables, or those who ate 3 servings plus 15 “serving equivalents” in pill form? Sure enough, the pills didn’t seem to help at all. Improvements in lung function and asthma control were evident only after subjects increased their actual fruit and vegetable intake, strongly suggesting that consuming whole foods is paramount.

            By getting our nutrients from unprocessed plant foods, not only may we minimize exposure to harmful food components, such as sodium, saturated fat, and cholesterol, but we may maximize our intake of nearly every required nutrient: vitamin A carotenoids; vitamin C; vitamin E; the B vitamins, including thiamin, riboflavin, and folate; as well as magnesium, iron, and potassium, not to mention fiber.

            However, given our modern lifestyles, important shortfalls need to be corrected. For example, vitamin B12 is not made by plants; it’s made by microbes blanketing the earth. But in this sanitized modern world, we now chlorinate the water supply to kill off any bacteria. While we don’t get much B12 in the water anymore, we don’t get much cholera either—that’s a good thing! Similarly, we evolved to make all the vitamin D we need from the sun, but most of us are no longer running around naked all day in equatorial Africa.

            Thus, I recommend a regular, reliable source of vitamin B12 for anyone eating a plant-based diet: for those 65 and younger, 2,500 mcg (μg) vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) at least once a week (or 250 mcg a day), and up to 1,000 mcg daily if over 65. I also recommend that people unable to get sufficient sun take one 2,000 IU vitamin D3 supplement daily, ideally with the largest meal of the day.”

            1. Lonie had said that she doesn’t eat the food forms of some of the things. There will be cases when she needs supplements to make up for shortfalls.
              ——————————————————–
              Deb, WAKE UP! You are sleep posting again.

              Remember? Loni is the girl… Lonie has a beard (and I’m not the bearded lady from the circus. ‘-)

      1. Sure but why use drugs if we can eat an anti-inflammatory diet that is both nutritious and enjoyable?
        ———————————————————————————————————————-
        My reasoning is that the supplements require no preparation, they are more concentrated and thus can do the job for less money… that is, cost effective.

        In my mind I do not use drugs… I use supplements from primarily natural sources. Some things like Vitamin D or sometimes even Vitamin C are manufactured rather than naturally sourced. I’m not a big user of the unnatural products but will use them if I test below healthy levels.

        I’m confident I feed my body adequately, especially since I do eat foods that are healthy along with my supplement regimen… wild blueberries, bananas, oatmeal, prunes, a wide array of teas, almond butter, cashew butter, various juices, herring filets, etc. etc. No bread, some small amount of chicken-vegetable one-dish maybe once per month.

        The things I eat are things from suppliers that I trust. I don’t put much trust in the fresh vegetables or fruit on display at my Supermarket

        The thing that ties all these and other things I eat together is ease of preparation and fits my budget.

        1. Well, I do supplement with amla myself – and B12, D2/K2, algal DHA/EPA and a multi – so I suppose that I should have answered my own question!

          BTW. how are your herrings processed? They can be high in sodium which may be an issue if you eat them every day?

          1. BTW. how are your herrings processed? They can be high in sodium which may be an issue if you eat them every day?
            ————————————————————————————————————–
            Point taken. I had to go get a tin of each to see how much sodium since my main concern with sodium is table salt. I figure I’m probably getting my sodium needs taken care of when included in my food. My labs are always showing sodium within range.

            As to how the herring filets are processed, one that I eat occasionally is a 6 oz. tin and the herring are covered in hot tomato sauce.

            The other one, and the one I eat more regularly is 2.5 oz. and are listed as “naturally smoked” whatever that means… they are packed in water. However, I more or less “reprocess” them by adding some balsamic vinegar, turmeric, chlorella powder and piperine powder (by sticking a hole in the end of a capsule and puffing some out on top of the turmeric.) I add a small bowl of avocado salsa with some chopped garlic and then eat about 10 olives with the kippered snacks and avocado salsa. I try to drain the olives of the brine as much as possible.

            By D2 I assume you mean Vitamin D? Just curious why you choose the D2 over the D3? I get my B-12 from my B-Complex daily pill. Any reason why you focus on just the one B Vitamin? I also take a krill oil supplement to ensure enough Omega 3s.

            1. Thanks Lonie.

              Sorry, I take a D3/K2 supplement but being a fumblefingers I keyed in D2 instead.

              I get my B12 RDI from the multi I take but I see that Dr Greger recommends a much higher dose for those over 65 hence the additional B12 supplement.
              https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/

              This is on the basis that many older people have difficulty abosrbing B12. To be honest though, my understanding is that this probably only applies to B12 from animal foods. I have read that B12 from supplements is much more easily absorbed by people of all ages. Consequently, the separate B12 supplement may not be neessary. However, I haven’t checked this out in detail and Dr G and his team are usually pretty thorough when it comes to these things so I keep on taking it. It’s cheap enough and there’s no real evidence of known harm from doses higher than the RDI anyway.

              I think naturally smoked herring simply means herring smoked using traditional hardwood chips. Smoked fish consumption though has been associate with increasd cancer risk eg prostate and breast cancer. Smoked foods generally have also been associated with increased cancer risk which is why I avoided smoked fish when I did eat fish
              https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0059799
              https://breastcancer-news.com/2017/01/16/eating-grilled-smoked-meats-linked-to-higher-mortality-risk-in-breast-cancer-survivors/

              1. I think naturally smoked herring simply means herring smoked using traditional hardwood chips. Smoked fish consumption though has been associate with increasd cancer risk eg prostate and breast cancer. Smoked foods generally have also been associated with increased cancer risk which is why I avoided smoked fish when I did eat fish
                ———————————————–
                That had always been my understanding as well (smoked preparation being harmful) but this company also sells another same-sized tin of kippered herring and you can tell by the texture and taste that it is definitely smoked. The one I eat is less expensive and the flesh appears to be unprocessed and there is no smokey taste to them at all.

                But anyway, I’ve made some judgements in respect to my diet and even though some food stuff may be labeled as harmful in isolation, it may become benign when consumed with pro-active foods/supplements. I think the closing points in the above video attests to that when it shows how an anti-inflammatory drug can ameliorate the effect of something that in isolation is detrimental to health.

                It probably seems to many here that I go overboard with my consumption of anti-oxidants, but I know that I am going to miss eliminating something that could be a detriment in my diet, so I just find it easier to try and cope with that by using overwhelming force.

                1. Thanks Lonie. Interesting. When I did eat fish, I ate sardines and pilchards in preference to herring because the latter were usually either smoked or pickled. I used to choose sardines or pilchards in spring water to keep the sodium levels down.

                  Many of us are probably aware of the results of observational studies that show increased mortality with some antioxidant supplements eg

                  ‘A 2012 review of almost 80 randomized clinical studies of antioxidant use (vitamin A, C, E, beta-carotene and selenium) again showed cause for concerns. Together the studies included a total of almost 300,000 men and women (described as both “healthy” and with diseases in a “stable phase”). Men and women were more likely to die if they were taking Vitamin E, beta-carotene or doses of vitamin A that exceed the Recommended Dietary Allowance (700µg for women and 900µg for men). The authors concluded that the use of antioxidant supplements could be dangerous for the general population and those diagnosed with various diseases.7’

                  And that high antioxidant consumption can be a two-edged sword – in some cases it can actually promote cancer

                  ‘As more recent studies continue to suggest antioxidants could actually help cancer cells grow, research by Zachary Schafer shows that cancer cells’ survival can be aided by antioxidants that protect these cells from free radicals.10 Free radicals harm cells, and getting rid of free radicals therefore can help cancer cells. “If you are a person who is healthy, meaning no tumors of any kind, antioxidants are probably going to protect against cancer,” Schafer says. But he points out that if a person has cancer cells, antioxidants can help those cancer cells survive.’

                  http://stopcancerfund.org/pz-diet-habits-behaviors/antioxidants-and-cancer-risk-the-good-the-bad-and-the-unknown/

                  1. A 2012 review of almost 80 randomized clinical studies of antioxidant use (vitamin A, C, E, beta-carotene and selenium) again showed cause for concerns.
                    ——————————————————————————-
                    Tom, when I think of the things you referenced I consider those as Vitamins and mineral. I don’t even put them in the category of anti-oxidants, though I guess some think they are. And of the ones listed I take a small value Vitamin A about 3 times a week (Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.) I do that because I have read that Vitamin A is important to the health of our body’s stem cells. I take a small Selenium tablet along with a 10 mg zinc tab about 4 times per week along with my R-Lipoic Acid tab.

                    I’m not much of a vitamin taker, although I take a daily B-complex veggi capsule. My anti-oxidant comment should have probably been changed to my supplements.

      2. Tom,
        At this point many of the nutritious plant foods cause me digestive issues
        Troublesome are onions, garlic, beans and many other high fodmap foods. I am hoping that by gradually easing into them I can incorporate them more fully into a daily routine. I have not been able to find any information on Dr. Greger’s site that deals specifically on how to eat these foods without triggering gerd/reflux.

        Lida

        1. Hi Lida

          Well, the standard advice is to eat much smaller meals more often – the troublesome foods are less likely to trigger a GERD response if the amounts are small.
          https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/digestive-diseases/acid-reflux-ger-gerd-adults/eating-diet-nutrition

          And if standard beans are a problem, try mung beans and/or bean sprouts and see if they trigger the same response. Or experiment with tempeh/tofu (soy bean curd).

          Do they have the same effect if you blend them? Eg in a (sweet) potato mash or in a smoothie of some kind?

          1. These are all good questions and worthy of pursuing. I am curious, however, if Dr. Greger has ever conceded that there are just some plant foods regardless of how healthy that may be indigestible for some people and would need to be avoided.

            1. Lida,

              Absolutely…. the issue of our individual unique make up and response to some foods does indeed make some foods less than optimal. Consider those folks that are allergic or even experience sensitivities as one example.

              As Deb points out, below, there is indeed a shift in the microbiome with dietary change. This is one of the key factors when it comes to our dietary change to a PBWF’s diet.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjq8vLt3oHfAhXOjVkKHeNDANoQFjALegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftranslational-medicine.biomedcentral.com%2Farticles%2F10.1186%2Fs12967-017-1175-y&usg=AOvVaw2b-rXfAZHBnuM_yoK723Q4

              Per Mr. Fumblefingers, using a smaller meal may indeed be very appropriate. Please consider other factors such as your biological health and don’t miss, digestive capabilities. By that I mean your level of naturally occurring digestive enzymes. This will affect your ability to tolerate or digest foods. Testing this hypothesis is important before you conclude a food is indigestible for you.

              Experiment with what works for you and consider and chart which foods work well and of course those that don’t. Having a health professional evaluate your findings might address/identify your digestive upsets and lead you toward much better digestion and choices specific for your needs.

              Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger http://www.Centerofhealth.com

        2. Lida,

          I used to have the same problems, but after a while on Vegan, I can handle onion and garlic and I eat beans all the time and never get gassy at all. Other people have mentioned the same shift.

          Wondering how much of it is a change in the microbiome or something.

          If you are using dry beans, soaking them does lower it, but I don’t even do that anymore. I use an Instapot and just cook them.

          I have read one natural remedy, which you can try. Chewing Fennel seeds. They taste like licorice. (Liquorice, if you are Tom.)

          1. Thanks Tom
            I am hoping to have the same results as you.
            Bloating, gassiness and sometimes stomach ache are what I am hoping will resolve in time.

  6. Does anyone know if this kind of research has been done on higher quality organic meat, ie are the health issues related to the quality of meat eaten? My mother and I switched from eating organic poultry and oily fish to vegetarian a couple of years ago. We eat plenty of good quality fresh plant based protein including pulses, beans and chickpeas, but we dont seem to have as much energy as before so Im wondering if that is due to becoming vegetarian.

    1. I doubt if this is the place to find an answer to your question, Nessa. You’d certainly get opinions from those carnivore websites, though — where they claim organic (raw!) meat is far superior to fruits, veggies, etc.

    2. I wouldn’t listen to YR (except for the entertainment value). She’s not really onboard with the core message of this website – or hard-headed scientific rationality for that matter. You certainly won’t get unbiased advice from a carnivore website for one thing

      You may need a B12 suppllement. Lack of energy is a known symptom of B12 deficiency.

      The US National Institutes of Health recommend that vegetarians and everybody over 50 should take a B12 supplement or eat B12-fortified foods.
      https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/

      Dr Greger also recommends use of B12 supplements.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/

      1. Fumbles, her question (again) was: “Does anyone know if this kind of research has been done on higher quality organic meat, ie are the health issues related to the quality of meat eaten?”

        You answered her by going off about needing B12 and such, but did NOT answer her question about “research done on higher quality organic meat,” did you? I’m assuming she must know about needing B12 in her diet, but then one should never assume.

        I don’t think Dr. G. ever made a video about this, has he? (I mean, as an answer to her question.)

          1. In nutshell, I should have answered Nessa’s question by saying, “This website does not think highly of animal foods, so you probably wouldn’t find anything other than negative comments said about them.”

        1. Given her last sentence, I thought that her real question was: is our lack of energy due to becoming vegetarian?
          ‘we dont seem to have as much energy as before so Im wondering if that is due to becoming vegetarian’

          Hence my remarks about B12. Going vegetarian can cause a B12 deficiency. I’ve heard that lack of B12 can have precisely this effect and not everybody supplements. It didn’t seem to me that my response was going off on a tangent but you may be right.

          1. Mr Fumblefingers, I came across this tidbit in my quest to find out more about preserving kidney function.

            https://veganhealth.org/conditions-that-contraindicate-cyanocobalamin/

            Since you were speaking about supplements and this is a kidney video day, I thought it important to mention. People with impaired kidney function who are new to wfpb eating and supplement might need a different B12 form since the kidney can have problems clearing the cyanide apparently.

            Thanks for all you do Mr Fumblefingers

            1. Thank you, Barb, that is fascinating.

              I’m a great fan of Jack Norris and his VeganHealth website. He and Dr G are a veritable Justice League of nutrition, as Deb might say.

    3. Nessa,

      Dr. Greger has done videos with organic versus nonorganic meat. There is a slight improvement over nonorganic.

      You would still have the IGF-1 risk, and Carnitine and Choline – those would be related to increased growth of Cancer, that can behandled by keeping the percent of calories from animal products to less than 5% of your calories.

      The saturated fats would still be an issue for things like Heart attack, Stroke, and Diabetes and those risks don’t decrease to a highly safe level until vegan level.

      Going organic, you wouldn’t have as many antibiotic and steroid issues, but organic animal products still tested positive for multi-drug resistant bacteria and viruses and if you have leaky gut, you would still be susceptible to autoimmune diseases because the body will see the animal proteins as foreign invaders and makes antibodies against them, which end up attacking things like your pancreas and thyroid and that autoimmune response is linked to Hashimotos, Diabetes, MS, etc. Animal products still would still cause some of the things like premature puberty and acne in children and decreases in male’s reproductive ability.

      You would still get the bad gut bacteria back if you ate it for too long and that is another route for Cancer and Heart and Gut issues to come in.

      I agree with Tom that I would start with a lab test for deficiency. Are you taking an effective B-12 and I say that because I have been finding more people taking Methyl B-12 and that isn’t as shelf stable and isn’t complete and it doesn’t always work. I took it for a while and ended up with leg spasms and tiny lesions both of which went away when I changed types of B-12.

      I had been supplementing with Methyl because it was easier to find in the store I happened to be at and I think it was okay when I was drinking fortified plant milk and using nutritional yeast every day, but I stopped both of those things and the Methyl alone was insufficient.

      1. Here is another paragraph from Dr. Greger:

        “I think the most interesting finding in the new Harvard studies is that even after factoring out known contributors of disease, such as saturated fat and cholesterol, they still found increased mortality risk, raising the question: what exactly is in the meat that is so significantly increasing cancer death rates, heart disease, and shortening people’s lives? A few possibilities include heme iron, nitrosamines, biogenic amines, advanced glycation end products, arachidonic acid, steroids, toxic metals, drug residues, viruses, heterocyclic amines, PCBs, dioxins, and other industrial pollutants.”

    4. Nessa, this website is fairly simple to search. There is a big SEARCH box at the top of the page; type in your question to see what is found. There are also past videos (a LOT of videos!) arranged according to general topic; these are fun and informative to browse. Click on the big url (NutritionFacts.org) at the upper left of the page to reach the homepage to see what is available at this site. The whole site is a great resource! Have fun.

    5. Does anyone know if this kind of research has been done on higher quality organic meat, ie are the health issues related to the quality of meat eaten?
      —————————————————————-
      Nessa, here’s what I’ve read about meat.

      Red meat, farmed or wild, contains a “sugar” as it was referred to, that humans do not have. This means that our bodies see that molecule as a foreign invader and makes an anti-body against it when consumed.

      This anti-body stays in a state of constant action creating a continual low grade inflammatory response. Fowl do not have this molecule so at least from that standpoint do not create the inflammatory response.

      Personally, I am not concerned about occasionally eating chicken or turkey but do restrict my once or twice a month consumption to canned breast meat of chicken (don’t want to be handling uncooked chicken or eating oily parts of chicken) or some of the after-thanksgiving bargains of unsold turkey breast. ‘-)

    6. Indirectly yes. If you take away everything except the fat and cholesterol, and eat that, blood levels of cholesterol go up which correlates with premature death from heart disease. “High quality meat” has been tested for fat and cholesterol. It has plenty.

      You’re on the right track with the legumes and pulses. Are you eating grains like quinoa and millet? Are you eating a lot of fruit with these meals? My kids and I eat this way and we have MUCH more energy than we did as meat eaters years ago….and don’t forget your vitamin B12 and just enough sun exposure to get your vitamin D up. When in doubt, appoint with your doctor and get tested.

      Dr. Ben

    7. Good for you and your mother Debbie for aiming for a healthier diet by going meatless. It’s natural to have doubts, wondering if organic meats but looking for added energy from organic meat will not be the solution and carries risk See; https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-organic-meat-less-carcinogenic/ If you are seriously concerned about your energy levels you should review your diet to be sure you are obtaining enough of all the nutrients you need (Consider trying the Daily Dozen if you haven’t yet) and possibly get a blood test to make sure your hormones are in order. Many things can cause low energy including lack of sleep, stress,etc.

  7. Why would reasonable/ moderate animal protein intake be a problem? CKD I have found results from extremes in age, obesity, diabetes, hypertension etc. Not reasonably protein intake. this flies against everything I’ve learned. Please comment

    1. Watch the video again and read the studies cited in the ‘sources cited’ box under the video player above.

      For another thing, phosphorous load management is a key issue for kidney patients. Animal protein is higher in phosphorous than plant proteins (except nuts). Furthermore, phosphorous is more easily aabsorbed from animal foods than plant foods.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4361095/

    2. Sharon

      Are you talking about CKD causation or CKD management?

      And what do you mean by ‘reasonable/ moderate animal protein intake’? If you live in the US, your idea of a reasonable/moderate amount may in fact be significantly higher than recommended protein intake levels.

      ‘Protein intake in North America and other industrialized nations is higher than the recommended amounts including in CKD patients’
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5962279/
      Most of this would of course be animal protein.

      High intake is recognised as a problem However, the science is not definitive at this stage. Nevertheless, it seems that there may be a dose response relationship between red meat protein and risk.

    3. I agree with Tom that first the question is whether you are in a stage of kidney failure or if you are just speaking hypothetically.

      For instance, 1 egg per week would seem modest, but it increases the risk of Diabetes.

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-and-diabetes/

      Dr. Greger gave a list of reasons to avoid animal products to protect kidneys.

      “Due to toxic metal contamination, NeuG5c, alpha-gal, and advanced glycation end products (AGEs), meat (including poultry and processed meat), sugar, and high-fat meals should be avoided to maintain kidney health.”

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-inflammatory-meat-molecule-neu5gc/

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/meat-may-exceed-daily-allowance-of-irony/

      There are videos which give a bigger picture

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/preventing-kidney-failure-through-diet/

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/treating-kidney-failure-through-diet/

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not-to-die-from-kidney-disease/

      I also recommend watching videos on The Rice Diet because one part of that was to treat Kidney failure.

      Here is from Dr. Greger’s overview on it.

      “In 1939, Dr. Walter Kempner, a Duke University Professor Emeritus of Medicine, introduced the first diet-based program to treat “malignant” hypertension and kidney failure. Called the rice diet, it consisted of rice, sugar, fruit, and fruit juices, providing 25 grams of protein in a 2,400 calorie a day diet, with reduced sodium, no animal fat, no animal protein, and no cholesterol. Initially, sugar was used as an additional source of calories so that people would not lose too much weight. He had hoped the diet would stop the progression of the disease.

      Results of the Rice Diet on High Blood Pressure
      While at Duke, Dr. Kempner treated move than 18,000 patients with his rice diet. Patients entered the program with blood pressure readings of 210/140 and left with readings down to 80/60. The disease reversed in two-thirds of the patients: reversal of heart failure, eye damage, and kidney failure. Patients often gradually transitioned to a less restrictive diet without their high blood pressure returning and without added medications.”

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/kempner-rice-diet-whipping-us-into-shape/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/can-morbid-obesity-be-reversed-through-diet/

      1. Deb, Thank you for doing such a great job in posting the links to all the previous NF videos pertinent to the subject being discussed in the comments section. Although I have seen most of the videos before, I find it very helpful and they serve as a good reminder that the subject has been covered here before.

      1. Thanks Lida,

        That is sweet of you to say.

        It might be a combination of a broken brain and insomnia, but I will just take the compliment.

  8. Coincidentally, Medscape has just published an article on the massive increase in chronic kidney disease death and disabilty rates in the US since 2002.

    ‘From 2002 to 2016, the burden of chronic kidney disease (CKD) in the United States grew faster than that of other noncommunicable diseases, according to the 2016 Global Burden of Disease Study. Loss of health and life increased substantially, particularly in younger adults aged 20 to 54 years.
    ……………………………………………………..
    Nearly 2 million healthy life-years were lost in 2016 to CKD, a 52.6% increase from 2002, and nearly 83,000 lives were lost to the disease, a 58.3% increase from 2002.”
    https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/905829?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=129079FG&impID=1818343&faf=1

    It is interesting that this increase seems to date from the time when low carb diets started becoming hugely popular.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet

    I wonder if there is a link there? It seems at least plausible since most low carbers are eating high animal protein or high fat. And they are probably more likely to be the younger adults referred to in that report. This video discusses the effects of high animal consumption on kidney function but there’s evidence from animal studies that hgh fat diets damage kidneys also:

    ‘We concluded that a fatty diet is responsible for the rats’ obesity and may lead to renal deformities as a result of histopathological changes such as dilatation, tubular defects, inflammation and connective tissue enlargement of the kidney.’
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2423405/

    Note that this “high fat diet” delivered 30% of total calories in th form of fat. However, on average the US population gets over 33% of its total calries from fat
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/diet.htm

    Whether it does this directly or via the mechanisms of obesity and/or high blood pressure isn’t clear but the World Health Organization and many obesity researchers are convinced that high fat diets (30%+ calories from fat) are obesogenic.

    1. Tom,

      That is terrifying.

      20 to 54 – that is so young!

      Brilliant of you to look up which dietary change happened at that time!

      Yikes!

      1. All four categories of causes of it increased.

        Diabetes caused it 21.8% more often
        Hypertension caused it 22% more often
        Glomerulonephritis caused it 10.4% more often

        They list other causes as a 4th category and that increased by 10.3%

  9. I was looking at the needle patched they are looking at for mending broken hearts. WFPB is cheaper, but it is nice to know that new technologies are coming out.

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/patch-studded-tiny-needles-may-help-heart-attack-survivors-recover?tgt=nr

    “The base of each heart-healing film is a polymer sheet studded with tiny needles — similar to other microneedle patches that deliver vaccines but designed to stick to a patient’s heart rather than her skin (SN: 8/5/17, p. 8). The surface of the polymer opposite the array of microneedles is coated in a gel containing cardiac stromal cells. These cells secrete molecules, such as proteins and tiny pieces of genetic material known as microRNAs, that support the growth of heart muscle cells.

    “We’re treating [the patch cells] as little pharmacies,” says study coauthor Ke Cheng, a biological engineer at North Carolina State University in Raleigh. When a patch is attached to the heart, the microneedles funnel curative molecules from the cardiac stromal cells directly into the damaged tissue.”

    1. Not that I personally am but thanks YR. We shouldn’t forget though that::

      “The consumption of three portions of whole grains a day appears as powerful as high blood pressure medications in alleviating hypertension.”
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/whole-grains-may-work-as-well-as-drugs/

      “The average American has what’s called prehypertension, which means the top number of your blood pressure is between 120 and 139. Not yet hypertension, which starts at 140, but it means we may be well on our way.
      Compare that to the blood pressure of those eating whole food plant-based diets. Not 3 points lower, 4 points lower, or even 7 points lower, but 28 points lower.”
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/hibiscus-tea-vs-plant-based-diets-for-hypertension/

      1. Tom,

        Thanks YR and Tom.

        I just bought tea and went to look.

        “…. two cups of strong hibiscus tea every morning, using a total of 5 tea bags for those two cups, was as effective in lowering blood pressure as a starting dose of 25mg of captopril taken twice a day.”

        5 tea bags!

        I have always had low BP, but might be prehypertensive now.

        What I can say is that I helped a man who was hypertensive even while on meds. I started sending him videos maybe 6 months ago and at first he laughed, and he tried flaxseed and it didn’t work and tried other things and they also didn’t work, but I asked him recently if it had started to work and he let out a resounding, “Oh, yes” He isn’t vegan or WFPB yet, but he is genuinely watching videos and is incorporating it and he did things like cutting pizza down to once per month and his numbers are already so much better.

        1. Laughing because my comments are so messed up.

          But it is only 1:41 am and I might get some sleep tonight and it might be the placebo effect from drinking tea with sleepy in the title

      2. Under these older NF videos it’s amazing to see so many names that no longer post here. For instance, Thea. Do they return to animal food diets and would feel like hypocrites for posting here? We all change…..evolve…move on to other things and interests. “Places to go, people to see.”

        Dr. G., however, will no doubt continue to keep on truckin’ at NF. :-) (Until he won’t.)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pRoj758tTQ

        1. Maybe some of them ended up being interviewed on Sv3rige’s show….telling the world how their vegan diets nearly killed them. (??)

        2. YR

          Thea was a long-time moderator here but was I believe ‘let go’ during a reorganisation. She no longer posts here regularly but occasionally drops in using a nom de plume, sometimes a gender-bending one. Perhaps, she’s actually Lonie under layers of disguise and the whole beard thing is just a smokescreen :)

          Some other people have changed their name but still post while others may have taken up new hobbies like bank robbery or whatever.

          SYet others left because they got fed up with certain of the more frequent posters at the time, one of whom was finally banned. You have to work really, really hard to get banned here – and this guy spent a year obsessively posting rubbish despite repeated warning before he was eventually banned. However, before he was shown the door, a number of people said they were leaving because they couldn’t stand his constant repetition of ridiculous conspiracy cllaims.

              1. “YR,
                I also enjoy yours though at times quite acerbic.”
                – – – – –

                UH-oh! “Acerbic” is a bad thing, right?

                *hanging head in shame*

                1. YR
                  No shame!
                  there are a legion of caustic, sharp-witted comedians in whose path you follow
                  Don rickles
                  richard pryor
                  Lenny bruce
                  Etc etc
                  Insult humor can be fun

                  1. Hmmm…and they’re all men. Although, come to think of it, there was also Phillis Diller…..

                    But to be both acerbic AND obscure….. :-(

          1. Thea was a long-time moderator here but was I believe ‘let go’ during a reorganisation. She no longer posts here regularly but occasionally drops in using a nom de plume, sometimes a gender-bending one. Perhaps, she’s actually Lonie under layers of disguise and the whole beard thing is just a smokescreen :)
            ——————————————————————————————————————
            Heh, no… I’m not thea. But he did post here recently as George Washington. Tom, are you sure Thea isn’t male?

            1. Lonie

              I’m not sure of anything to be Frank. You could call me an Ernest student of epistemology if that would bring you any Joy.

              Sorry but I couldn’t resist trying to Josh you.

              1. I’m not sure of anything to be Frank. You could call me an Ernest student of epistemology if that would bring you any Joy.

                Sorry but I couldn’t resist trying to Josh you.
                ————————————————————————————————-
                Hmm… you capitalized Frank and Ernest as well… not like you to do something like that without purpose. Most of what I’ve found on the Internet suggests frank rather than Frank while Ernest is associated with epistemology and so is fitting.

                (Ernest Sosa (born June 17, 1940) is an American philosopher primarily interested in epistemology)

                As per the joshing, no problem as I rather enjoy the back and forth. And IMO, it adds to the commentary. ‘-)

                1. They are all first names…… like Thea, Steve (one of Thea’s alternative IDs) and George (Washington deceased) …..and therefore potential alternative IDs.

        3. Let me assure you that Thea, one of our wisest and most helpful moderators, is still devoted to the plantbased life and supporting it through other actions, such as Vegan meetups. Please don’t assume just because someone no longer posts here they renounce the healthy messages spread. They may be “spreading an educated word” in other ways.

  10. I understand that whole soy products are probably better than Soy Protein Isolate but I like the Soy Protein Isolate in my smoothies, it is really good at regulating my blood sugar whereas soy milk or tofu in my smoothie does not regulate my blood sugar as well. Based upon this video it appears that Soy Protein Isolate is safe to use, is that your understanding as well? I’ve seen on the internet a lot of articles claiming Soy Protein Isolate is unsafe. Thank you.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This