Flashback Friday: Coffee & Artery Function

Flashback Friday: Coffee & Artery Function
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The new dietary guidelines for beverages recommend tea and coffee second only to water in healthfulness, but what about concerns they might impair the function of our endothelium?

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There are dietary guidelines for food; what about for beverages? A Beverage Guidance Panel was assembled to provide guidance on the relative health and nutritional benefits and risks of various beverage categories. They ranked them from 1 to 6, and water ranked #1.

Soda ranked last at #6. Whole milk was grouped with beer, with a recommendation for zero ounces a day, in part out of concern for links between milk and prostate cancer, as well as aggressive ovarian cancer thanks to IGF-1. #2 on the list, though, after water, was tea and coffee, preferably without creamer or sweetener.

Even without creamer, though, lots of unfiltered coffee can raise cholesterol levels, but the cholesterol-raising compounds are trapped by the paper filter in brewed coffee, so filtered coffee is probably better.

But about 10 years ago a study was published on the effects of coffee on endothelial function, and the function of our arteries. Within 30 minutes of drinking a cup of coffee, there was a significant drop in the ability of our arteries to dilate, whereas decaf did not seem to have a significant effect. This was the first study to demonstrate an acute unfavorable effect on arterial function for caffeinated coffee, but one cup of decaf didn’t seem to affect performance. And two cups of decaf appeared to have a beneficial effect. So maybe it’s a battle between caffeine and antioxidants. Something in caffeinated coffee appears to be hurting arterial function, whereas something in decaf appears to be helping—maybe the antioxidants.

It’s like the story with red wine. De-alcoholized red wine significantly improves arterial function, so there are grape components trying to help, but the presence of alcohol counteracts and erases the benefit.

Drinking really high antioxidant coffee, by preparing it Greek style, for example, where you actually drink some of the grounds, may actually offer an advantage

That something in caffeinated coffee that appears to hurt, though, may not be the caffeine. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, researchers found that caffeine alone—about 2 1/2 cups of coffee worth—significantly improved arterial function in both people with and without heart disease.

See, coffee contains more than a thousand different compounds other than caffeine, many of which are also removed by the decaffeination process. So there must be something else in the coffee bean that’s causing the problem. In fact, caffeine may even enhance the repair of the fragile inner lining of our arteries, by enhancing the migration of endothelial progenitor cells, the stem cells that patch up potholes in our artery walls.

But how might we get the potential benefit of caffeine without the risky compounds in caffeinated coffee? From tea. Tea consumption enhances artery function. Substantial beneficial effects for both green tea and black tea. Instead of other components in tea leaves undermining caffeine’s potential benefits, they appear to boost the benefit in healthy individuals, as well as heart disease patients, reversing some of their arterial dysfunction, both immediately and in the long-term.

Now all the measurements in this and the other studies were done on the brachial artery, the main artery in the arm, just because it’s easier to get to. What we care about, though, is blood flow to the heart. And caffeine appears to impair blood flow to our heart muscle during exercise even in healthy folks, but especially those with heart disease. Thankfully, caffeine in tea form appears to have the opposite effect, significantly improving coronary blood flow, suggesting that tea consumption has a beneficial effect on coronary circulation, although the addition of milk may undermine the protective effects.

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio contributed by Katie Schloer.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Images thanks to GoToVan via Flickr.

There are dietary guidelines for food; what about for beverages? A Beverage Guidance Panel was assembled to provide guidance on the relative health and nutritional benefits and risks of various beverage categories. They ranked them from 1 to 6, and water ranked #1.

Soda ranked last at #6. Whole milk was grouped with beer, with a recommendation for zero ounces a day, in part out of concern for links between milk and prostate cancer, as well as aggressive ovarian cancer thanks to IGF-1. #2 on the list, though, after water, was tea and coffee, preferably without creamer or sweetener.

Even without creamer, though, lots of unfiltered coffee can raise cholesterol levels, but the cholesterol-raising compounds are trapped by the paper filter in brewed coffee, so filtered coffee is probably better.

But about 10 years ago a study was published on the effects of coffee on endothelial function, and the function of our arteries. Within 30 minutes of drinking a cup of coffee, there was a significant drop in the ability of our arteries to dilate, whereas decaf did not seem to have a significant effect. This was the first study to demonstrate an acute unfavorable effect on arterial function for caffeinated coffee, but one cup of decaf didn’t seem to affect performance. And two cups of decaf appeared to have a beneficial effect. So maybe it’s a battle between caffeine and antioxidants. Something in caffeinated coffee appears to be hurting arterial function, whereas something in decaf appears to be helping—maybe the antioxidants.

It’s like the story with red wine. De-alcoholized red wine significantly improves arterial function, so there are grape components trying to help, but the presence of alcohol counteracts and erases the benefit.

Drinking really high antioxidant coffee, by preparing it Greek style, for example, where you actually drink some of the grounds, may actually offer an advantage

That something in caffeinated coffee that appears to hurt, though, may not be the caffeine. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study, researchers found that caffeine alone—about 2 1/2 cups of coffee worth—significantly improved arterial function in both people with and without heart disease.

See, coffee contains more than a thousand different compounds other than caffeine, many of which are also removed by the decaffeination process. So there must be something else in the coffee bean that’s causing the problem. In fact, caffeine may even enhance the repair of the fragile inner lining of our arteries, by enhancing the migration of endothelial progenitor cells, the stem cells that patch up potholes in our artery walls.

But how might we get the potential benefit of caffeine without the risky compounds in caffeinated coffee? From tea. Tea consumption enhances artery function. Substantial beneficial effects for both green tea and black tea. Instead of other components in tea leaves undermining caffeine’s potential benefits, they appear to boost the benefit in healthy individuals, as well as heart disease patients, reversing some of their arterial dysfunction, both immediately and in the long-term.

Now all the measurements in this and the other studies were done on the brachial artery, the main artery in the arm, just because it’s easier to get to. What we care about, though, is blood flow to the heart. And caffeine appears to impair blood flow to our heart muscle during exercise even in healthy folks, but especially those with heart disease. Thankfully, caffeine in tea form appears to have the opposite effect, significantly improving coronary blood flow, suggesting that tea consumption has a beneficial effect on coronary circulation, although the addition of milk may undermine the protective effects.

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio contributed by Katie Schloer.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Images thanks to GoToVan via Flickr.

Doctor's Note

I’m fascinated by how complicated such a simple question can get. The take-home is that water is the healthiest beverage, followed by tea.

The effects of coffee on cancer risk are more salutary:

It also matters what goes into the coffee. My video on aspartame and brain function (Aspartame & the Brain) explores the potential benefits of coffee in reducing suicide risk, which may be undermined by the addition of artificial sweeteners. 

Since this video was originally published, I have some newer ones on coffee:

Regarding artery function, I also have videos on walnuts, dark chocolate, tea, plant-based diets, olive oil, and vinegar

Low Carb Diets and Coronary Blood Flow is one of the few other studies I’ve done that measured blood flow within the coronary arteries themselves. For more background on the brachial artery test, see my video The Power of NO.

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

211 responses to “Flashback Friday: Coffee & Artery Function

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    1. As a chemist I have to point out that Tea does not have Caffeine. It has a different, though related, substance called Theophylline. Molecular differences do matter.

      1. Anyone can Google and find that tea does in fact contain caffeine and that caffeine which is sometimes called theine when found in tea, is a xanthine alkaloid found in the leaves and beans of the coffee tree, in tea, yerba mate, guarana berries, and in small quantities in cocoa, the kola nut and the Yaupon holly.

        Theophylline is present only in trace amounts in tea, but has a stronger effect on the heart and breathing than caffeine. For this reason it is often the drug of choice for treating asthma bronchitis and emphysema. The theophylline found in medicine is made from extracts from coffee or tea.

        1. Jimbo, you are right. I should have checked to see if what I was taught in class is correct.
          We did look at the molecules of xanthines in coffee, and those in tea. Under the microscope they were not the same.
          This article I am posting explains why. Scroll down to the section on absorption rate.
          Turns out the caffeine in tea is usually bonded to other compounds, while in coffee it is not. This explains one of the reasons why tea is not as stimulating.
          Thanks for getting me to look this up. Can’t always believe professors. :)

            1. Thanks, Jimbo and Marilyn!

              That is interesting.

              I had switched to all tea for a year, but now I am back to mostly coffee.

              My taste buds change back and forth and the last time I had an herbal that I used to like, I didn’t enjoy it at all.

              I have serial mono-eating taste buds and Mammasez, just brought me back to pasta.

              I hadn’t had it for so long that I had lost the taste for it, but they had about 4 or 5 things with pasta or sauce in the 2 week Plant-Based challenge.

              I think my brain is peculiarly prone to getting stuck.

              Decades ago I had a Pilates Reformer instructor who pointed that out about me.

              She would have me start doing an exercise and I would feel so comforted by it that I didn’t like switching.

              1. I honestly might eat pasta all next week.

                I had thought I would be making 5 Bean casserole, but it is like I can close my eyes and my brain is looking for tomato sauce.

                1. Deb, in my food ‘trials’, I found that I could rarely, if at all, eat pasta! Even the legume based ones are not whole foods and, as such, are very calorically dense! https://www.cookinglight.com/eating-smart/smart-choices/is-legume-pasta-healthy The most I could get away with without gaining weight is occasionally (once every month or so) eating a chopped veggie salad (roasted or raw) with less than 1/4 cup pasta thrown in. So thats about 6 or 7 to 1 ratio of veggies to pasta, but it was enough to give some variety and interest to meals.

          1. Marilyn Kaye,

            I don’t know what kind of microscopes you were using in class, but generally they can’t see molecules. IBM recently developed an Atomic Force Microscope (AFM), and in 2009 looked at one molecule, pentacene. But it’s very high tech: “You need a very high level vacuum, absurdly low temperatures (5 Kelvin), and a lot of time – more than 20 hours for a scan. The tip also has to be within 0.5 nanometers of the sample.“ (https://singularityhub.com/2009/09/01/microscope-sees-molecules-for-first-time/)

            There are other methods that chemists use to determine the chemical structure of organic molecules, including X-ray diffraction, electron diffraction, and neutron diffraction. (https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Organic_Chemistry/Book%3A_Basic_Principles_of_Organic_Chemistry_(Roberts_and_Caserio)/09%3A_Separation%2C_Purification%2C_and_Identification_of_Organic_Compounds/9.03%3A_Why_Cannot_We_See_Molecules%3F)

            Here are the 2D chemical structures of caffeine and theophylline —-they are very similar, differing only in a methyl group attached to a nitrogen present in caffeine which replaces a hydrogen in the same position in theophylline. (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Molecular-structures-of-caffeine-theophylline-theobromine-and-paraxanthine_fig1_5781717)

        1. Maybe that is the reason The English have longer lives…from drinking Tea rather than Coffee.
          ———————————————————————————————————————-
          Plus, as a population, they add milk to their tea… which until reading some responses in this thread, I thought was a bad thing.

          1. You still should Lonie.

            According to at least one of the papers posted by inveterate dairy promoter Pete Granger, milk clearly does impair polyphenol absorption.

            Pete accuses Dr Geger and this video of highly selective and misleading reporting on this issue. He maintains that the evidence shows that milk doesn’t impair absorption. he then posted a whole list of citations with some very selective quotations.

            Not only do those papers not prove Pete’s claim, they directly contradict it. One of them, the Moser paper, even compares the effect of some constituent parts of milk – the proteins – against others (the salts) on the absorption of flavonols from green tea, and wants us to believe that this somehow shows that drinking milk in black tea doesn’t impair flavanol absorption.

            Another paper, the Zhang et a one l, clearly states that drinking milk in black tea impairs absorption but Pete chooses only to quote the bits where it states that milk proteins ultimately don’t impair absorption. That is very probably true but highly misleading because that same paper also states

            ‘Langley-Evans(157), who found that the addition of soya milk or cows’ milk appeared to diminish the antioxidant potential of black tea preparations. This effect was greatest when whole milk was used and appeared to be primarily related to the fat content of the added milk(158).’

            ‘. Serafini et al.(61) found that compared with tea consumed without milk, the antioxidant potential of tea with milk decreased.’

            ‘Nevertheless, when polyphenols, milk proteins and fats were ingested together, a significant increase in the median diameter of the emulsion
            was found during digestion(9). Considering that polyphenols can bind to milk proteins(114) and that proteins can be adsorbed to the surface of lipid droplets(203), the data evidenced the participation of milk fat in the interactions between milk proteins and polyphenols during digestion,resulting in remarkable aggregation. Unlike polyphenol–protein complexes, the complexes formed with proteins and fats did not completely break during digestion and thus impaired the bioavailability and antioxidant activity of the polyphenols’

            https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f550/22384c1c743290dcdcf1dfdcc114f786bb3b.pdf

            To use Pete’s own words, his posts are ‘highly selective and misleading reporting’ of the evidence by a long-time milk and dairy advocate. Pete’s argument relies on people,not having the time to read the long list of papers he cites and quotes from, to get the full picture. They don’t support his claim that drinking black tea with milk doesn’t impair absorptionand, certainly in the Zhang case, directly contradict it. Little wonder the industry and its supporters want us to focus on tea and milk protein interactions and completeley ignore the interactions between actual milk and tea. In other words, distract people by getting them to focus on the minutiae of how the effect occurs and perhaps they will forget the adverse effects on eg the vascular system

            1. Tom, I’m aware of your’s and Pete’s looking at the same studies and drawing different conclusions, but I not only believe in scientific empirical evidence, but anecdotal evidence as well.

              That is, I think the British add milk to their tea intuitively because something inside them tells them they are better off with it. That little island Empire has spawned America, Australia, and has made an impact on other places, like Hong Kong and India for instance.

              I’m going with the collective gut of the British and am going to try the goats milk and tea for a bit to see if my own gut agrees. ‘-)

              1. Well I am British by birth and upbringing and my gut tells me you are mistaken.D

                Milk is probably beneficial if added to a nutritionally deficient diet. And there is no doubt that the poor in Britain 100 years ago necessarily ate a nutritionally inadequate diet. That’s all they could afford. McCarrison’s papers and lectures on this are enlightening. Adding milk was on balance probably more helpful than harmful. However, that’s not the situation most of us here find ourselves in ytoday..

                What first convinced me that adding milk to tea, as traditionally done in the UK, was harmful was research 20 or thirty years ago that pointed out that tea drinkers in Europe, Japan, China and the US all enjoyed a mortality benefit. The only people who didn’t obtain a mortality benefit from tea drinking were the Brits. People in those other countries usually drank their tea straight. Brits and Australians on the other hand usually drank their tea with milk and sugar. As this 2001 meta-analysis found

                ‘ With increasing tea consumption, the risk increased for coronary heart disease in the United Kingdom and for stroke in Australia, whereas the risk decreased in other regions, particularly in continental Europe.’
                https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/154/6/495/74999

                These are just associational studies, true, but I’m not personally inclined to risk it now (I previously drank tea with milk for decades) – especially since various experimental studies have demonstrated that tea with milk impairs the vascular system.compared with drinking tea on its own.

                1. Tom and Lonie,

                  Zhang et al. (Table 2) is a summary of all 14 in-vivo studies that addresses the issue of tea polyphenol bioavailability in the presence of additives. Six of the studies examined added milk (milk proteins and fat).
                  For the uninitiated, in-vitro studies measure this effect in the test tube.
                  Both Dr Greger and Tom are fond of quoting ‘Lorenz et al’ as good reason for not adding milk to tea. However, this is a discredited study, as publicly conceded by its own authors (see my previous post). Lorenz et al found that in the test tube milk binds (complexes) to tea polyphenols. That is, POTENTIALLY making polyphenols less bioavailable when ingested.
                  Remarkably, it never occurred to them to investigate how this bonding fared following subsequent human digestion. That is, ‘in-vivo’, instead of ‘in-vitro’. Which is of course, the whole point of the exercise. Instead, they got their cheap headline – which the milk-bashers eagerly latched onto. And perversely, continue to do so today. Self-evidently, a test tube result (like that obtained by Lorenz et al) demonstrating polyphenol/milk binding (complexing), is completely pointless if that binding is subsequently reversed by digestion and metabolisation. The only way to establish this is to conduct ‘in-vivo’ experiments. Thankfully, Zhang et al has summarised 14 of these in-vivo studies. All of them demonstrated that binding of tea polyphenols in the test tube (or drinking cup) was reversed during digestion. Ergo, the addition of milk to tea does not affect the bioavailability of tea polyphenols. Tom’s response to this has been to selectively quote from Zhang’s explanatory comments:

                  ‘Nevertheless, when polyphenols, milk proteins and fats were ingested together, a significant increase in the median diameter of the emulsion was found during digestion(9). Considering that polyphenols can bind to milk proteins(114) and that proteins can be adsorbed to the surface of lipid droplets(203), the data evidenced the participation of milk fat in the interactions between milk proteins and polyphenols during digestion, resulting in remarkable aggregation. Unlike polyphenol– protein complexes, polyphenol-fats proteins did not completely break during digestion and thus impaired the bioavailability and antioxidant activity of the polyphenols’

                  This statement by Zhang seems at odds with his Table 2 summary. Until you dig a little deeper. The operative word here is ‘impaired’, and Table 2 clarifies the nature of the impairment. Milk proteins, cream and milk fats (and other vegetable fats – including plant-based milks?) DELAY absorption of polyphenols. Note, delay, not prevent. Arguably delaying polyphenol absorption is a positive (extended half-life) – but either way it does not matter. Milk (proteins and fats) bind polyphenols in the tea-cup (as demonstrated by Lorenz et al) and this binding temporarily delays (not diminishes) the digestive absorption-period (as Lorenz failed to be demonstrate). Incidentally, Table 2 also demonstrates than animal fats (lard) INCREASE polyphenol absorption. I dont expect this will feature in a nutritionfacts video.

                  In summary, the addition of milk to tea binds tea polyphenols, and this binding slows (but not diminishes) its absorption during digestion. In the public interest, Dr Greger and Tom should correct the record.

                  I will be offline for a few days. I will attempt to respond to the remainder of the issues raised by Tom next week sometime.

                  1. In summary, the addition of milk to tea binds tea polyphenols, and this binding slows (but not diminishes) its absorption during digestion.
                    —————————————————————————————————————————————
                    Pete, this to me is the salient point and I believe your posted research confirms that as it digs deeper into the body process.

                    Furthermore, I hope someday someone will do this same in depth research of what happens to tea with milk and then have the subject exposed to Whhhhole Bbbboddddy Vibbbrrratttionnn.

                    That is, does the Alistipe increase get even more out of the milk-added tea or is it somehow mooted?

                    Eventually we are going to have to have studies done by Artificial Intelligence… there are just too many important variables needing a study to answer, for humans to get to them all.

                  2. Oh, come on Pete, Zhang et al clearly state that bioavailability and absorption are ‘impaired’ – NOT just ‘delayed’ but ‘impaired’. Yes milk proteins merely delay absorption but who drinks tea with just milk proteins? People drink tea with actual milk

                    Yes we know that the dairy industry hates the Lorenz study and makes all sorts of claims about it in order to try to discredit its findings.
                    https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/28/2/219/2887513
                    However, it is not the only study that showed that, while plain tea enhances vascular function, tea with milk impairs it. A 2018 study also looked at this very question:

                    ‘Objective: To investigate the effect of regular consumption of black tea, with and without milk, on vascular function and blood pressure in healthy volunteers. Design: A randomised, controlled, crossover study was performed in 17 healthy volunteers; 7 men and 10 women, mean age 22.4 ± 3.0 years. Participants received each of the following treatments in random order for 4 weeks, with no washout period in between, (i) hot water, (ii) black tea and (iii) black tea with milk. Vascular function was assessed using flow-mediated dilatation (FMD) of the brachial artery at the end of each treatment period. In addition, participants monitored their home blood pressure for the last 7 days of each treatment period. A blood and urine sample was also collected at the end of each treatment period. Results: Black tea increased FMD compared to the hot water control group (1.00 ± 0.18%, P < 0.0001). Black tea with milk decreased FMD compared to both the hot water control (-0.64 ± 0.19%, P = 0.001) and black tea (-1.64 ± 0.19%, P < 0.0001). Compared with hot water, black tea did not alter blood pressure, while black tea with milk increased systolic (1.1 ± 0.5 mmHg, P = 0.03) and diastolic blood pressure (2.0 ± 0.5 mmHg, P < 0.0001). Black tea (-1.8 ± 0.5 bpm, P < 0.001) and black tea with milk (-1.8 ± 0.6 bpm, P < 0.001) lowered heart rate compared to hot water. No significant difference for plasma nitrate or nitrite was observed between treatment groups. Conclusions: The addition of milk to black tea alters the acute/short-term impact of regular tea consumption on vascular function and blood pressure in young healthy men and women. The exact mechanism for this affect remains unknown and longer-term trials to establish this effect in a range of populations are warranted.'
                    https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/fo/c8fo01019f#!divAbstract

                    The mechanisms are still unclear but the article by Zhang et al which you yourself cited did state that the proteins and fats in milk together 'impaired' absorption (not merely 'delayed' it as you state). Nor are they the only researchers to find that it's not just the proteins in milk that affect antioxidant capacity/status, other components such as milk fats are involved ……….

                    'However, it is common practice in the United Kingdom to add milk to tea, and some studies have suggested that this may decrease the overall antioxidant capacity. The objective of the present study was to analyze and compare the antioxidant capacity of 5 brands of tea and to test the hypothesis that the addition of different volumes of whole milk, semiskimmed, and skimmed milk may affect the antioxidant capacity. Each of the teas analyzed was a significant source of antioxidants. The addition of 10, 15, and 20 mL of whole, semiskimmed, and skimmed bovine milk to a 200-mL tea infusion decreased the total antioxidant capacity of all the brands of tea. Skimmed milk decreased the total antioxidant capacity of the tea infusion significantly (P < .05) more than either whole milk or semiskimmed milk. We conclude that black tea is a valuable source of antioxidants and that the effect of milk on the total antioxidant capacity may be related to the fat content of the milk.'
                    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531709002462

                    However, that latter study didn't examine the effects on humans. It was merely an in-vitro study so we'll have to consider it merely suggestive rather than definitive.

                    Personally, I wouldn't imagine that small amounts of milk in tea made a huge difference one way or the other. However, because I was brought up in Britain and drank tea with milk for a very long time, I have always been conscious of studies showing mortality benefits for tea consumption pretty much everywhere except countries like the UK where tea is drunk with milk. As that meta analysis I referred to in my post to Lonie, noted 'With increasing tea consumption, the risk increased for coronary heart disease in the United Kingdom and for stroke in Australia, whereas the risk decreased in other regions, particularly in continental Europe.' Tea in Australia is normally drunk with milk too.

                    Observational studies are notoriously subject to confounding of course but those results do appear to be consistent with other studies indicating impaired polyphenol biovailability and impaired vascular function resulting from consuming black tea with milk.

                    It's results like those that persuaded me to give up drinking tea with milk. They also convince me that it's not Greger and alleged 'milk bashers' who are engaging in selective and misleading discussion of the evidence but milk industry apologists.

                    1. “People drink tea with actual milk”
                      – – – – –

                      I’m imbibing a cuppa black tea as we speak. Have always drink it black, not even lemon juice to muck it up.

                      But then, I don’t drink either the tea or the black coffee solely by itself. It’s always an “also ran” — meaning along with a meal. Green tea, unfortunately, doesn’t agree with me.

                    2. Tom,

                      Dont have time to respond to all of this, but just a few quick points. You have to interpret the word ‘impair’ in context. Which (self-evidently) is either delaying, prolonging or enhancing polyphenol bioavailability (this assumes that even enhanced polyphenol bioavailability may be an unwanted outcome for some individuals). This is the only logical conclusion one can take from the Table 2 summary. None of the tested food items permanently diminished bioavailability, and some increased it. It gives the bigger picture, not the incomplete picture you are desperately clinging to.
                      According to Table 2, the following ‘impair’ (change, alter, modify, increase, decrease, prolong, shorten) the bioavailability of polyphenols in rats and/or humans. Milk fat (inconclusive), milk proteins, oligosaccharides (inulin, onions, leaks, garlic, legumes, wheat, asparagus, soy genistein and daidzein), oatmeal, quercetin, olive oil. Lots of nutrients affect its bioavailability, as you would fully expect. It is not exclusive to dairy – as you would have us believe. If nutritionfacts were to follow the logic of your specious argument, it would encourage its readers to not drink tea after consuming inulin, onions, leaks, garlics, legumes, wheat,asparagus, soy or soy milk, oats, quercetin (broccoli, red onions, peppers, apples, grapes, red wine, some fruit juices. This would be equally ridiculous to not drinking milk with tea. Why? Because the binding of polyphenols is only temporary. Once digested, they are delivered ….sooner or later. You could legitimately encourage your readers to consume the following if they are intent on actually increasing polyphenol bioavailability. Sugar, pig lard and difructose anhydrate. There are probably many others we dont yet know about.

                      It should be obvious to you why milk fats and milk proteins are separated by researchers. I dont need to explain it. Personally, I would prefer whole milk being tested as it contains milk sugar, and if it acts in a similar manner to sucrose, milk sugar (lactose) will enhance polyphenol bioavailability.

                      I will try and address the rest of comments when I return.

                    3. Pete

                      I understand that you are keen to give milk a clean bill of health but your reading of the Zhang et al paper appears somewhat incomplete albeit convenient.

                      To repeat myself, Zhang et al state ‘the complexes formed with proteins and fats did not completely break during digestion’. If the complexes do not completely break during digestion,then they cannot be completely absorbed. This is why they state absorption is impaired. Impaired simply does not mean ‘delayed’ no matter how many convoluted arguments are explored trying to square this particular circle.

                      i don’t know why you repeatedly reference table 2. It is not relevant to this particular issue because that table does not refer to the specific aspect of the paper that looked at the effect of milk proteins, milk fats and phenols/antioxidants together which Zhang et al discuss later in their paper. Table 2 only describes the part of that specific paper/study which looked at polyphenols and milk fats (ie no proteins). May I refer you to the papers which are the source for the statement that absorption and bioavailability are impaired by thr fat and protein complexes? Reference number 9 in particular (but also number 10) in the list of the cited papers at the bottom of the Zhang paper. Potentially to confuse matters, those two are also by Zhang et al.

                      Of course, Zhang et al are not the only researchers to state that whole milk impairs absorption of polyphenols (even if milk ptoteins do not) eg (and yes I know that coffee is not tea but if the core issue if milk and phenol absorption, this paper is relevant)

                      ‘Different studies have shown that milk may interact with polyphenols and affect their bioavailability in humans. The present study investigated the effect of the simultaneous consumption of coffee and milk on the urinary excretion of chlorogenic acids (CGA) and metabolites. Subjects were submitted to consumption of water, instant coffee (609 mmol of CGA) dissolved in water, and instant coffee dissolved in whole milk. Urine was collected for 24 h after consumption of each treatment for analysis of CGA and metabolites by HPLC/LC–MS. The amount of CGA and metabolites recovered after consumption of combined coffee–milk (40% ± 27%) was consistently lower in all subjects compared to that of coffee alone (68% ± 20%). Concluding, the simultaneous consumption of milk and coffee may impair the bioavailability of coffee CGA in humans.’
                      https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/jf201906p

                      Finally, it is also worth restating the point that attacking an hypothesis about the mechanism that causes the observed adverse clinical effect, does not alter the fact than an adverse clinical effect occurs.

                      Criticising the second part of Lorenz’s paper, for example, which described a rat in-vitro experiment that tried to discover the reason for milk in tea’s adverse vascular effect in humans is all very well. His hypothesis about the mechanism may or may not have been correct. However, whether it was or wasn’t does not invalidate the first part of his study where tea and milk together had an objectively measurable adverse vascular effect on humans whereas tea on its own had a beneficial effect.

                    4. ‘It should be obvious to you why milk fats and milk proteins are separated by researchers.’

                      Of course but Zhang et al have performed (rat) experiments that indicate that it is in fact the proteins and fats together (as found in whole milk) that impair absorption and bioavailability) …. so just looking at milk fats and protein separately and in isolation would give a quite false impression that whole milk does not impair absorption.

                2. Brits and Australians on the other hand usually drank their tea with milk and sugar.
                  ————————————————————————————————————-
                  Yeah, probably the sugar… but no need to throw the baby (milk) out with the bathwater (sugar. ‘-)

                  OBTW, I liked your suggestion of adding some beet powder to bitter drinks as a sweetener of sorts.

                  1. on the road for a while Lonie. Before I go, I would not be concerned sugar adversely affects polyphenol bioavailability. Table 2, Zhang et al also demonstrates that sugar increases (not decreases) polyphenol absorption and antioxidant activities.

                    1. Lonie

                      ‘your planting a seed of suspicion (paraphrasing here) about the Purdue food people being “associated” with big food left a stain on them.’

                      From the Purdue website ……

                      “Purdue Food Science — Fulfilling your company’s needs

                      The Department of Food Science was built around the idea that we have two customers; students, and the industry we serve. We have personnel on staff specifically to assist companies.”

                      https://ag.purdue.edu/foodsci/Pages/ind_relationships.aspx

                  2. Lonie

                    Aren’t you the guy who, when I ventured that university departments of food science have food industry links, gave me a severe wigging for making an assumption? And told me to never ever make an assumption and only make statements based on evidence?

                    Isn’t your statement here about sugar being the problem, a pretty big assumption though?

                    Of course your statements elsewhere here that you ‘instinctively believe’ Pete’s claims and that the British people must have had a gut feeling that drinking tea with milk is a good thing, aren’t really comfortable fits with your instruction only to make statements based on evidence, either.

                    1. Isn’t your statement here about sugar being the problem, a pretty big assumption though?
                      ———————————————————————————————————————-
                      Hmmmm… you may have a point there, even though sugar has been accepted as an evil doer.
                      ___________________________________________
                      Of course your statements elsewhere here that you ‘instinctively believe’ Pete’s claims and that the British people must have had a gut feeling that drinking tea with milk is a good thing, aren’t really comfortable fits with your instruction only to make statements based on evidence, either.
                      —————————————————————————–
                      But I disagree with your conclusion here. That is, that’s just me taking sides (nothing personal) in the first part and suggesting anecdotal evidence on the second part.

                      No Brit’s reputation was harmed by my comments where your planting a seed of suspicion (paraphrasing here) about the Purdue food people being “associated” with big food left a stain on them.

                    2. Lonie

                      Your posts never fail to amaze and entertain..

                      I suggested that Purdue University’s Department of Food Science would have industry connections as would every other university’s food science department. It seems to me that that’s an entirely reasonable assumption. They would have to have such links in order to do their job. Also, just who do you think pays for the operation of university food science departments? And who do you think funds the research conducted by university food science departments? I would be amazed and astonished if a significant proportion of those funds didn’t come from the food industry.

                      On the other hand, your assumption that the British people drank tea with milk because they had a gut feeling, and it was healthy is not a reasonable assumption. It sounds like a totally wacky assumption to me. As a Brit myself, I can also confirm that it is completely wrong.

                    3. On the other hand, your assumption that the British people drank tea with milk because they had a gut feeling, and it was healthy is not a reasonable assumption. It sounds like a totally wacky assumption to me. As a Brit myself, I can also confirm that it is completely wrong.
                      —————————————————————————————————————————-
                      This last statement explains the difference between us… I leave wiggle room when I make a claim, understanding there are no absolutes, while you pompously declare your position is the only one possible.

                      I’m easing back to my writing now so will not be challenging your rightness or wrongness for awhile. ‘-)

                    4. What I wrote originally was

                      ‘ (I imagine but do not know for a fact that Moser and lead author Ferruzzi of Purdue’s Department of Food Science have some associations with the food industry).’

                      So, according to you this is me pompously declaring that my position is the only one possible. Erm, OK.

                      .

                3. These are just associational studies, true, but I’m not personally inclined to risk it now (I previously drank tea with milk for decades) – especially since various experimental studies have demonstrated that tea with milk impairs the vascular system.compared with drinking tea on its own.
                  ——————————————————————-
                  I suppose if I came here less well read (not talking about you) I would read your statement above and especially if I was worried about having a heart attack, would probably follow your advice out of fear.

                  However, and even though my own Father died (at a very young age–65) from having open heart surgery, I am unconcerned about my blood vessels filling up with placque. There are just too many things known as ways to stop that happening that I feel I have it covered. (Nitric Oxide promoters like beet root juice, dark chocolate for one approach… WBV as an inflammation inhibitor for another… and NMN supplementation as a repair mechanism for blood vessels that may be in bad shape… etc. etc. etc.)

                  1. etc. etc. etc. >>> means taking White Willow Bark to govern platelet aggregation which can cause arterial blockage if left to its own designs.

                    1. Sure Lonie. if you have a preponderance of health promoting lifestyle factors and only a minimum number of risk factors, then you are probably way ahead of the game compared to most of us..

                      However, some people like to be aware of all the known risks and avoid as many of them.as possible.

      2. Hi Marilyn

        Tea does contain caffeine. 11 mgs/100mgs. It also contains theobromine, theophylline and L-theanine. The latter somewhat moderates the effect of caffeine.
        Matcha tea, younger leaves, and tea bags (as distinct from loose tea) produce higher levels of caffeine.
        Because it is oxidised, black tea has about double the caffeine of green tea. White tea is less again. Brewed coffee has about double the caffeine of black tea.

        https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/caffeine-in-green-tea

  1. Why do people spend 4 bucks at these coffee shops when they know it only costs 6 cents to make? Some are too lazy to get out of their car and use the drive up, then they throw out the plastic or paper cup that they use one time in the garbage.
    Make your own the right way with filtered water and a gold tone filter basket in a proper coffee mug that lasts a lifetime.

    1. I don’t care if people want to buy four dollar coffee, but the waste thing is the issue. But there’s all kinds of solutions to that. These places could use plastic made from plants that is biodegradable if plastic is necessary at all, only recycled or sustainable and biodegradable paper products, and also serve people who bring in their own reusable cups.

      1. These places could use plastic made from plants that is biodegradable if plastic is necessary at all, only recycled or sustainable and biodegradable paper products, and also serve people who bring in their own reusable cups.
        ———————————————————————————————
        Agree completely. I have high hopes for hemp plastic being that sustainable product for making plastic. As the picture in the link below shows, bio plastic disintegrates in about 2 months.

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157522909939491&set=gm.434377977205586&type=3&theater&ifg=1

        disclaimer: I am invested in an Industrial hemp company.

        1. Lonie, when I clicked into your link I got the “page isn’t available” message.

          I’ve inherited some big bucks (probate should wrap up soon), and your hemp investment company does indeed sound like something to invest in. Thanks for the heads up!

      2. S,

        We carry our own mugs to coffee shops, in the event that we don’t make our own coffee (eg, while traveling). We take off the lid, and give the rinsed/washed mug to the “barista.” Since we have insulated Thermos mugs, our coffee stays hot — or cold — for a long time. The lid design prevents spilling even when it is tipped. And each mug holds 16 ounces.

        The mugs are easily cleaned by rinsing, with soap and water, or eventually with baking soda and very hot water, which removes the coffee film.

        No waste. Or none for a long, long time (we’ve owned these mugs for several years now, and actually, my husband uses his every day, even at home. I like to drink coffee from an open cup.)

    2. We now have entire generations of younger people who will not eat breakfast cereal simply because they see pouring it into a bowl, adding milk (cow or plant based), then cleaning said bowl IS TOO MUCH WORK for a breakfast when they can just throw a pop-tart into a toaster or stop at a fast food joint. How can these people be expected to brew themselves something as complex as a good cup of anything?

      1. I actually find there’s something peaceful about making stuff yourself… Making a hot pot of tea can feel like a sacred ritual in the morning. It’s definitely calming and it feels good to actually move and do things as opposed to sitting and staring at a screen while everything is pre-done for us. It physically, mentally, and even spiritually feels better.

  2. Good review.

    Since Dr. G mentioned red wine,.. I wonder if someone might offer a recommendation for a good, healthy red wine. I am reluctant to drink it or use it in recipes because I can’t be sure what’s in it (besides grapes). Isn’t it under the jurisdiction of AFT in the U.S.? They don’t require wine bottlers to list the ingredients on wine like prepared food products do by FDA rules. Not knowing what kinds compounds from Junior’s Chemistry Set are in wine, I am reluctant to use it. Anyone have one that’s relatively chemical free?

      1. Dr. Cobalt – I’m with you. I enjoy a glass of wine in the evening with dinner, but I’ve always wondered what kind of chemical concoction I’m getting along with the grapes. I have to assume that vineyards don’t wash the grapes before dumping them in the crushers and that various herbicides, fungicides, and pesticides are in the mix. I know there are some organic wines out there but I don’t have much experience with them. Here’s a Wikepedia link to organic wines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_wine
        Maybe I ought to just give up the habit . . . .

    1. dr cobalt, try Well Read, it’s organic and vegan (not all alcohol products are as sometimes they’re filtered through egg shells or even fish bladder) and no added nitrates. It’s also good and affordable.

    2. A vast majority of red wine makers in Napa, Ca get their grapes from grape farmers that believe in not using pesticides, chemicals etc. Sustainable farming in Napa is a big thing there. No I’m not in the wine industry but I visit napa regularly

      1. I live in the Napa area. You are absolutely correct. This has been happening for a few decades now. It seems the diseases that affect the grapes are less prolific when the grapes are not conventionally grown.

          1. Laughing.

            I remember visiting California as a young person and learning the first day that not everything that glows is sunset.

            The people we were staying with said, “That is a fire”: but they were pretty nonchalant about the whole thing.

            When I lived out there, we joked about how apocalyptic it was.

            Earthquakes, mudslides, fire, drought, riots, freeway shootings, and Hollywood, Oh, my.

    3. Winemakers do not put anything out of the ordinary in their products unless it is a flavored wine with one exception. Wine normally has two different sources of sulfites — natural sulfites, generated by yeast as part of the fermentation process, and added sulfites that are used to preserve the wine. Even with both sources, wine is not especially high in sulfites, especially when compared to other food. Wine will contain between 160 to 400 parts-per-million (ppm) of sulfites. In comparison, a serving of dried fruit will contain up to 1,000 ppm of sulfites. Some of the sulfite in wine is produced during the fermentation process, but this isn’t generally enough to preserve the wine product for a significant length of time after the fermentation process is complete. Additional sulfites are usually added after the fermentation process is complete to ensure that the wine doesn’t spoil while sitting on shelves, before it’s sold to the consumer.

      However, some consumers still protest the thought of any “unnatural chemical” in their wine, and some wine makers are responding by producing wines that do not contain any added sulfites. (Note that this doesn’t mean that the wines are sulfite free, as the natural sulfur dioxide produced in fermentation can’t be eliminated.) These products may be more likely to spoil and will have a shorter shelf life, but they can be useful if someone is prone to an allergic reaction to sulfites.

      1. “Just pour some grape juice in an empty wine bottle and act drunk.”

        Love it.

        Btw, Lonie, I spoke to a really awesome vet recently as I had to have an elderly feral cat come inside (he decided to move in) and since I have other cats, I had him tested for toxoplasmosis of which he had zero symptoms or evidence of (had his excrements tested as well) and she explained that it’s actually extremely rare for a cat to get toxoplasmosis and extremely difficult for it to spread. When they’ve tested cats including cats living with other cats who had it, most of the cats did not have it (I forget the numbers in that study, I have to find it, but they were impressive). The vet explained that a large percentage of cats actually have an immunity against it and don’t contract it. And all cats including feral go way out of their way in order to avoid touching feces of other animals (this is actually often why stupid humans will get mad at their cats for going to the bathroom around the house–a cat will not use a dirty litter box). Then the toxo takes at least 24 hours to activate so if someone cleans their litter (cleaning is enough, you don’t have to change it) within a 24h period, there’s no worries. And there’s no way you’d get it from just petting a cat, cats are very clean, wild cats too, they don’t roll around in feces and it’s just not that easy to pick up. There was a lot of other data she offered, she knew all about it and learned all about it and was really up to date with the studies and said the stuff on the internet is so inaccurately exaggerated. So the toxo videos Greger put out are actually unjustifiably exaggerated not in regards to raw and undercooked meat I’m sure, but in regards to cats. So keep hugging your precious little feline friends with no worries. Toxo is actually very rare in cats and difficult to spread.

        1. Toxo is actually very rare in cats and difficult to spread.
          —————————————————————————
          S, thanks for this information. I have been concerned about this because I have a brother whose family (daughter, grand daughter and her child) have many cats and I’ve seen pictures of the great-granddaughter wagging a cat around.

          I sent my sister-in-law a link describing how toxo can cause schizophrenia and my brother had laughingly conveyed how the child was a handful for her mother and the behaviour he described sounded a little schizophrenic to me. (Can’t find the link or I would post it.)

          I usually try not to interfere in matters like this but this one concerned me. Anyway, I don’t know if they just laughed my theory off or actually mentioned it to their doctor.

          But on another note, and I think you will be happy to see this confirmed although you already know it, eating meat is one of the main ways people contract toxoplasma gondii.

          https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-08/p-pnc082019.php

          “Toxoplasma is the leading cause of foodborne illness in the US, according to CDC. The most common route of infection for human is by consumption of contaminated raw or undercooked meat. Cat litter, after 24-48 of being cleaned, can also a source of Toxoplasma infection. However, cats can only shed oocysts once in their life time. Pregnant women are urged to avoid eating raw or undercooked meat, as also avoiding cleaning the litterbox after 48 hours, to prevent Toxoplasma infection. Congenital toxoplasmosis can have potentially serious consequences for the unborn child. An improved understanding of the parasite life cycle stemming from this study may lead to production of vaccines that could inhibit Toxoplasma’s sexual reproduction or the transmission of Toxoplasma to livestock.”
          ___________________________________________________________________
          And there’s no way you’d get it from just petting a cat, cats are very clean, wild cats too … So keep hugging your precious little feline friends with no worries. Toxo is actually very rare in cats and difficult to spread.
          ———————————————————————————————–

          Good to hear since there is this one cat that does the WBV (Whole Body Vibration) with me and when I sit out side (cats not allowed in the house… you’ve seen that Allstate commercial where the Mayhem guy acts like a cat and knocks things off a shelf and even has canary feathers in his mouth like Sylvester and Tweety? ‘-) this particular cat insists on getting in my face and I have to physically restrain him from doing so.

          On a side note, I was afraid the dozen cats here wouldn’t hunt except at my back door… then I saw one defending her catch of a field rat while eating it. Made me proud as I want no rats or mice anywhere around the house.

          1. Lonie, I’m glad it can comfort you. Yeah, you don’t have to worry about that, it’s just the direct feces you would have to handle and get into your system which would require some very blunt and unhygienic practices to say the least. I have one feral fur baby (neutered of course) who loves to snuggle with me, I have no worries about that at all and the vet confirmed I didn’t need to. The warnings are really out there for pregnant women because it can actually harm the unborn baby if the mother contracts it and even then the recommendation is to simply avoiding cleaning litter DURING pregnancy or wear gloves and wash hands if you do, not to not handle cats.
            I was reading and doing some searching, others even on this site weren’t so sure, and I have to say that I’m also not so sure there’s anything to the schizophrenia thing. The consensus seems to continue to be that toxo doesn’t harm unless you have a compromised immune system such as someone with AIDS.
            I did laugh at your comment, sounds like a comment from someone who never took care of kids lol, kids are crazy and that doesn’t mean it’s clinical. Unless your brother let’s the cats outside to hunt mice or feeds them raw meat, both of which wouldn’t even guarantee to give one of their cats toxo as it’s quite rare among them in fact (a fact known to vets I really wish Dr. Greger would have mentioned)–again, the only concern is that they can shed it for a short window and not all animals do–AND they don’t clean the litter boxes and let the child live amongst feces, there wouldn’t be anything to worry about. I would stress to him more to make sure they don’t eat undercooked meat which is the greatest threat, if you’re concerned.

            Sad to hear about the micies and ratites… they won’t come in your house if you keep it clean and well kept. Plus the cats around alone will keep them at bay by their very presence so no need to wish for their sad demise, but cats will always hunt even if fed, they’re top predators.

            1. micies and ratites… they won’t come in your house if you keep it clean and well kept.
              —————————————————————————————————————–
              phuhh! What else about being a belchelor do you not understand, other than not keeping house neat and clean? ‘-)

              1. K, you can have a messy house, but you have to coexist with the rats and mice then… no traps or poison! Evil stuff. Sounds like you’ll never have to worry about that with all your feline friends, though. Seriously though, sealing up holes works well too, but again, with all those cats around…

                1. your hemp investment company does indeed sound like something to invest in. Thanks for the heads up!
                  ———————————————————————————————–
                  Sorry about the link… it is a “by invitation only” discussion board for HEMP Inc. and I guess they don’t allow links to be posted. Anyway, it was a link to a picture that showed the large amount of degradation of a bio-plastic bottle in just 2 months. a little more time and the bottle completely disappeared.

                  And yeah, I’ve put my money where my mouth is. I own a small amount of land and sold much of it to my brother and then have invested most of that into the HEMP stock. I have enough of it that if it ever goes to a dollar a share, I CAN FINANCE MY OWN MOVIES!!!! ‘-)

                    1. First of all, apoligies to the forum for using this comments section as a personal contact vehicle, but there is just no other way available to pass on information.

                      @YR… below is a link to a lengthy but entertaining interview with the founder of the company in question. Some may be turned off by his history of being the “King of Pot” for which he was arrested and served his time for… but with no ill feelings apparently.

                      My take is that he is an intelligent individual with incise-thinking about how to run a business and what will become mainstream (Industrial Hemp including CBD oil over marijuana) in future.

                      https://ktvl.com/features/off-script/episode-72-king-of-pot-smuggling-101-and-getting-arrested-on-an-airplane?fbclid=IwAR23Xs8OvEytuJjEBJ723yXg8GD5NPE7th-d45URcVnOzkjVWzVpHIj4hDs

                    2. Lonie,

                      The King of Pot video looks like a good one. Just started watching it, and will put it on pause for now; it’s getting close to dinner time on the East Coast. (I took a quick look to see if he (also) had a pot belly, but will take a better look later.)

                      When I think of hemp, I think of Woody Harrelson:

                      https://www.hemp.com/2012/07/woody-harrelson-a-hempster-for-all-reasons/

                      P.S. Lonie, doncha think readers are picking up some hints of their own as they read our “off-topic” stuff? You bet they are! In fact, Dr. G. might be thinking of investing in hemp stock companies now too. *_^

                    3. When I think of hemp, I think of Woody Harrelson:

                      https://www.hemp.com/2012/07/woody-harrelson-a-hempster-for-all-reasons/
                      —————————————————————————————————–
                      Wow! I had no idea Woody was such an activist… and an early activist for hemp. Makes me feel like a Lonie-come-lately.
                      _______________________________________________________________________
                      P.S. Lonie, doncha think readers are picking up some hints of their own as they read our “off-topic” stuff? You bet they are! In fact…
                      —————————————————————————————————————————
                      ‘-)… possibly. I’m not comfortable giving stock market advice since I am not qualified to do so. I am comfortable in getting people interested in hemp products for comfortable living and a sustainable economy.

                2. K, you can have a messy house, but you have to coexist with the rats and mice then… no traps or poison!
                  ——————————————————————————————————————————————-
                  Completely agree with you on the poison… traps maybe as a last resort ’cause to quote a cartoon character of years ago… “I hate meeces to pieces!” ‘-)

                  As for the messy house, I don’t really like it being this way but can’t see spending money on something I’ll probably just bulldoze to the ground and build a geodesic dome in its place once my HEMP investment pans out.

                  I’ve got trees I’ve spent a lot of time and energy on that I would hate to leave… otherwise I would just pull up stakes and move to Sedona Az. I understand they have a lot of vegetarians out there (so that put my comments back on topic ‘-)

                  1. Oh, traps are evil, particularly glue traps… those things are pure demonic torture and it’s beyond disgusting they aren’t outlawed everywhere on the planet. Glad you agree about poison… horrible stuff, torturous.

                    Well I’m glad you’re sticking around, the feral kitties would miss you! And the trees will serve you well.

            2. S,

              I know a family who have cats and schizophrenia and they never clean the litter box and just aren’t very clean people in the first place.

              Not sure if it is related but we live in a modern culture where over 50% of people don’t brush their teeth twice per day.

              When I was young, women mostly didn’t work and people seemed to have more life skills.

              My young workers are ridiculously works in process, my elderly workers are excellent in every way.

              I have a relative who was (is) a big wig police officer and he one year he said that they kept trying to hire people but they hired back the retirees. He said that not one qualified young person showed up and that was over the course of a year.

              A few people finally showed up, but I would say the same thing and the kids often just don’t stand a chance because they never learned any life skills or job skills or social skills or healthy diet skills.

              1. Deb,

                Likewise I’ve known many people with lots of cats who unfortunately lived not-so-clean and in one particular case, FILTHY, none of them or their children developed schizophrenia. Correlation and cause and all that.

                “and people seemed to have more life skills”

                Omgosh, couldn’t agree more. This world is getting dumber and dumber, not just in regard to life skills but even social skills. I think it’s all the technology replacing culture and and thinking and actual interaction, etc. It reminds me of the movie Idiocracy, if you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend it. A comedy, but eerily familiar in a growing way. I’m a millennial but sometimes I feel like an 80 y/o and am glad for it.

    4. dr cobalt
      a good healthy red wine
      —————————————————————–
      surely that is a oxymoron , since all alcohol is poison

      1. Dr. J is pretty up to par with the scientific data, I’m certain they meant a healthiest version of red wine which is likely the healthiest choice for an alcoholic beverage should you have one. It’s definitely my go-to at parties and such when I do choose to drink.

  3. I enjoyed watching this video — as I sipped my daily coffee, 16 ounces, with added ginger.

    It seems that the benefits and risks of coffee are varied, depending upon the study, and what is examined.

    Meanwhile, I wonder, as always, what ELSE the study participants were eating, drinking, and doing? Were they SAD eaters, or WFPB eaters? Did they drink sodas, milk, water, etc? Did they exercise, or slouch in their recliners, watching TV? Etc. Context matters.

    1. I enjoy coffee too Dr J, especially with the splash of soy milk which I consume for a variety of reasons, including benefit to endothelium and arterial flexibility. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5188409/
      I don’t often pay much attention to these studies about single foods/supplements since as you say details about background info is often missing. Eating the daily dozen (which is very easy to do) has benefitted me immensely, and so far, adding single foods has not given more benefit than what I already reap.

    2. Dr. J – I don’t know if you caught my response back to you on yesterday’s video about the fasting and rejuvenating work of Valter Longo, Ph.D. Here is a link to a TedTalk video that he mentions in his book that is a very short synopsis of his rejuvenating work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVArDzYynYc Dr. Longo is a professor of gerontology and biology at UC-Davis and is Director of the Longevity Institute at UC-Davis as well. He is also affiliated with a lab in Italy. His lab has been working with oncologists and hospitals worldwide working on protocols for using fasting (which puts the body’s cells in a protective mode) with chemotherapy which diminishes the negative effects of chemo. He also works with Harvard and True North (the fasting center in Santa Rosa) on research in these areas. There are numerous Youtube videos of him presenting his work. Hope you find it interesting.

      1. Ruth,

        I am wondering if it causes the people who go through chemo to actually live longer.

        Dr Greger talked about chemo only adding about 10 days to people’s lives. I wonder if fasting adds weeks or months or a year or nothing at all to actual survival rates.

    3. If you click the ‘sources sited’ tab you can read the studies. Some were looking at acute effects of caffeine consumption. An acute effect is a physiological reaction in a human or animal body resulting in serious symptoms that develop rapidly during short-term (acute) exposure to toxic chemicals or substances.

    1. I have that problem with tea unless it is jasmine or something delicate which is not what people want for an eye opener. There are better stevias on the market that do remove the bitter compound but even they taste like artificial sweetener to me. Over time I got used to black coffee, but prefer it cold brewed or with an Aeropress (see Google) as drip coffee to me is disgusting. Cold brewed or Aeropress is much less bitter.

      1. Jimbo,

        Yes, cold brew and Aeropress/Chemex, or any pour-over method are less bitter.

        There are coffee makers which are specially designed to lower bitterness, which is somewhat dependent on how long the water and coffee are in contact and how hot the water is. If you are doing a pour-over method, you can use an electric teakettle that allows you to choose an exact temperature.

        Also, grinding your own coffee can help because fresh ground tends to be less bitter and it lets you control how fine the grind is. Finely ground coffee tends to be more bitter than coarse ground coffee. If you are really sensitive to bitterness you want a grinder that doesn’t heat up.

        It can also be your water which adds to the bitterness or a coffee pot that isn’t clean or the cleaner hasn’t been rinsed out properly.

        But there are other factors, such as the quality of the roast, which is often not consistent within the brands. You can get a bad batch. Lighter roasts tend to be less bitter than darker roasts.

        Finally, if you buy your own beans, knowing what is in the soil will help quite a bit. I dug into that topic when I started finding all of the coffee I was drinking was suddenly bitter and when I got to the soil, I was shocked.

        Some beans have things like tobacco in it and some have cacao, and some have fruits. What I found out is that if you don’t like the taste of the things in the soil, you won’t like the coffee.

        Also, if you don’t like the taste of your drinking water, you won’t like the taste of your coffee.

        I am back to loving my coffee, but I genuinely did get water filters and coffee grinders and tried different brewing methods and I can’t remember the last bitter cup of coffee that I had, but for about a year, I couldn’t think of even one good cup of coffee.

        1. Cold brewing, or using an Aeropress which mimics the 20 thousand dollar Clover machine that the higher end Starbucks uses, makes any coffee less bitter. I have tried it with even awful canned coffee and it was much better than brewed other methods.

          Water is not an issue as I have a very effective filter system that removes all chlorine and contaminates that flavor it. I never buy coffee with anything else added such as cacao or fruits, sounds nasty.

          I know lighter roasts tend to be less bitter, but I do not like them as a coffee. They do not brew well ‘cold’ or Aeropress as the flavors are too muted for my taste.

          1. Jimbo,

            If you are grinding your own coffee, understanding that the coffee will taste differently depending on the soil of the location might matter to some people.

            The coffee description will say something like “citrus notes” or “chocolate notes”

            Robusta tends to have chocolate notes.
            Liberica tends to have fruity or floral notes.
            Excelsa tends to have fruity notes or tart notes.

            Location matters
            Coffee from Hawaii has floral notes.
            Coffee from Columbia is often described as having caramel sweetness, and notes of nuttiness, some are citrusy.
            Coffee from Brazil has a wider palette of flavors and peanuts is one of their notes, but I have seen ones from Brazil described as: having notes of Milk chocolate, dried fruits, a touch of pineapple and lemongrass
            Ethiopia has coffees they describe as being wine-like in fruitiness with overtones of strawberry or blueberry.
            Kenya has coffee which is fermented and theirs has flavors such as tomato and black currant
            Indonesia has lower acidity It has a smoky flavor and they describe the aftertaste to be similar to unsweetened cocoa
            Some from South and Central America have honey and berries notes.
            Some from Jamaica say things like: Buttery, floral, chocolate, minty when cold, orange and chocolate when hot.

            1. They often even tell which flavor will hit your palate first and where you will end up.

              For instance, one said that when you drink the coffee, you will start with an herbal sweetness, after that the body reveals cardamom and clove with a hint of refreshing acidity.

              And they tell which brewing styles produce different aromas and those aromas can affect the taste.

              For instance, with the same coffee, depending on your preferred brew style, there are beans can develop aromas of wisteria, cacao nip, and caramel.

              1. I was trying to find which one had the tobacco notes, but I couldn’t find it.

                I did, however, drink one cup of coffee at work, which my coworker who is an ex-smoker said was his favorite coffee and, to me, it tasted like cigarettes. That was before I read that some coffee is grown in countries with a lot of tobacco and it can literally taste like cigarettes.

                My coworker didn’t even notice it. For me, it was overwhelming.

      2. Jimbo,

        YES!! I make my coffee in an Aeropress, and with short brewing times, it is much less bitter than coffee brewed with an automatic drip machine. Also, I can make a coffee concentrate, which I can then pour over ice cubes for fresh-brewed iced coffee. In fact, I originally bought it to make iced coffee; I was having hot flashes from drinking hot coffee during the hot summer weather while on endocrine therapy for breast cancer.

        I gave my daughter an Aeropress, and she thinks the resulting coffee tastes better as well. (Plus, she wants to try flavored coffees, which her husband doesn’t want to drink).

        It’s cheap (about $30), small, easy to store and clean, and easy to use, yet so versatile. I’ve even made soy milk latte or cappuccino with mine, since the brewed coffee concentrate is similar to an espresso.

        I once heard an eloquent description of how wonderful fresh brewed coffee tastes plain, or black, and since then, I’ve learned to agree. (I think I was primed to find it delicious!) And I don’t miss either the cream/creamer or sweetener.

        1. Good girl, Dr. J! *thumbs up*

          IMO, black with nothing added, is the ONLY way to drink it.

          (Same with peanut butter….just ground peanuts, nothing else added to the jar.)

    2. Lola – me too. Stevia just didn’t have quite the right sweet. But what I did was used a packet of stevia and then added about a 1/4 tsp of real sugar to make the taste right. Works for me. . . . thought I’d share.

      1. Beetroot powder is slightly sweet too and might be an option worth considering for those who prefer only a hint of sweetness..

        I sometimes add it to cacao and coffee but I don’t have a sweet tooth and mostly prefer the bitter brews.

  4. I find that many of Dr G’s videos would benefit from a summary at the end, particularly on subjects where the data is ambiguous or potentially contradictory as appears to be in this case. Should I conclude that I am safe drinking black tea without milk or decaffeinated coffee with or without milk but not regular coffee particularly if it’s not filtered coffee?

    1. Herb,
      I so agree! An “in conclusion” summary would be so helpful. Sometimes reading through the transcript is like going through a minefield.

      1. I suspect that he prefers to present the evidence rather than offering personal opinions that aren’t firmly demonstrated by scientific studies, That is, there aren’t comparison studies that clearly and specifically demonstrate your very reasonable conclusions/summary …. and that is perhaps why he didn’t offer that summary himself

        Also, he has previously said that he doesn’t recommend drinking coffee. He recommended tea instead
        https://nutritionfacts.org/video/update-on-coffee/

        1. Tom,

          I agree. When I have watched Dr. Greger in interviews and he has been asked questions about topics, which I already have watched his video answer, he will not go past what he has put up. He is aware of when studies have complicated math and he is not trying to make our minds up about it. People get so argumentative and opinionated about topics and he is not like that. Also, people accuse him of exaggerating when he is putting the exact wording of studies and that accusation of him “exaggerating” happens regularly.

          There was one Q & A when someone asked him about insomnia and he went to the kiwi study and said, “2 kiwi’s may help you sleep longer than 2 bananas, whatever that means.” and the thing is he is putting out the exact information and doesn’t want to put it in a way that is like he is selling things or promising anything.

          These are the studies that are out there and sometimes they conflict with each other and he is trying to get people to hear the information unfiltered and make their own minds up.

    2. Herb, I always read the transcripts, then the Doctor’s Notes. The take home message he says, is that water is the preferred beverage, followed by tea. But it depends what your health status/goals and personal preferences are as to what beverages you choose to enjoy. There is no ‘danger’ here. Check out the other videos for more info on what coffee and tea can do for us health-wise.

  5. I always meant to ask the question and never did so, here it is :) When Dr. Greger talks about coffee, is this all forms of coffee or specifically coffee ground from beans i.e. instant freeze-dried does not count?

    1. Hi Schalk Nestling, thanks for your question. I have good news if you are a instant coffee drinker. In this study below they showed that instant coffee had higher antioxident property than other types of coffee. Instant coffee brews showed the highest values in content of total phenols, chlorogenic acid derivates, caffeine and antioxidant capacity, which significantly decreased by milk addition. The antioxidant capacity of coffee brews was in compliance with the total phenol content and content of chlorogenic acid derivates.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23442632

      1. Thanks so much. Dr Greger has also noted elsewhere that unlike cows milk plant milk – or at least soy milk – does not decrease coffee’s antioxidant benefits.

        This is interesting and while I prefer brewed drip coffee I occasionally drink instant. Perhaps I will have to make my instant coffee using a paper filter and single cup dripper from now onwards.

      1. Haha, thanks Jimbo,I’d just posted the same question and then saw your posting…I was racing to get my second cup of tea at 5AM, cheers.

  6. I mask the taste of green tea by steeping it with either a zinger tea or Bengal spice tea, leaving the green tea bag in for only 1 minute, and the other tea bag in for longer while stirring for maximum flavour. I am hoping this combo keeps the benefits of the green tea!

    I just tried it with my one-cup filtered coffee by adding a green tea bag for one minute – in the hopes of the green tea negating the negatives of caffeinated coffee on endothelial function. Results: The coffee almost masks the flavour of green tea (but not as well as the strong teas above) but unfortunately the smell of green tea messes with the aroma of freshly brewed coffee – too weird. (Plus I was using a delicate light roast. Maybe a dark roast would do the trick. Lol)

  7. How can the addictive properties of caffeine be ignored? And the effects on atrial electrical pathways in many people. Coffee is not a food, is mostly unethically produced, and an addictive drug. It’s ridiculous to use it.

  8. Tea is great! But my new best friend water drink is:

    https://www.faim.org/a-brief-history-of-deuterium-depleted-water

    I make my own using the partial freezing of distilled, magnetized water and pouring off the unfrozen amount. Then I run the unfrozen water back through the process to again pour off the unfrozen water. This gives me the purity I feel I can achieve using such primitive methods. Looking forward to the day I can get truly pure light water.

  9. Interesting subject, but selective and completely misleading reporting.
    Coffee also contains methylglyoxal, which is strongly associated with metabolic syndrome. Adding cream to coffee significantly reduces methylglyoxal levels : ‘Adding cream to bold coffee significantly reduced its MG level in comparison to the coffee sample without cream’. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45719284_Methylglyoxal_Content_in_Drinking_Coffee_as_a_Cytotoxic_Factor

    Moreover, adding milk to coffee or tea in the test tube binds polyphenols, but these bonds are broken where it counts – in the gut. So, this report is much to do about nothing. Moreover, there is no evidence the addition of milk to tea affect arterial flow to the heart (as reported by Lorenz, 2017).

    Lorenz et al discovered that milk proteins bind to valuable polyphenols when added to tea. In response to criticism of their methodology, Lorenz et al conceded serious shortcomings in their their study:

    ‘As we have shown in Table 2 of our paper, tea catechins become complexed as soon as milk is added to tea. Whether these complexes are broken down after digestion of the caseins and whether the catechins are subsequently released and absorbed later on represent interesting questions’.

    ‘We are also aware of the study by van het Hof et al.,6 who did not observe a difference in plasma catechin concentrations after consumption of black tea with or without milk. This objection needs to be further investigated’.

    ‘A plausible explanation of the fact that we observed an impairment of FMD response after addition of milk to tea may be that the catechins, owing to the longer retention period in the digestive tract, could have been modified and thus rendered physiologically inactive. The suggestion by the authors to measure the vasodilatory response at later time points is an important issue that should be addressed in future studies’.

    https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/28/10/1266/2887455.

    That is, the author’s excluded the possibility that the complexes formed between milk proteins and tea flavanols are broken down during digestion. Other studies demonstrate that this is precisely what occurs Moreover, an earlier study by van Hof et al found milk had no effect on plasma catechin concentrations:
    ‘Addition of milk to black tea (100 ml in 600 ml) did not significantly affect the blood catechin levels (areas under the curves (mean (CVM) of 0.53 h. micromol/l (11%) vs 0.60 h. micromol/l (9%) for black tea and black tea with milk respectively’.

    ‘Conclusion: Catechins from green tea and black tea are rapidly absorbed and milk does not impair the bioavailability of tea catechins’.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9630386

    Other shortcomings of the Lorenz study include the following:

    1. The researchers used skimmed milk. Given interactions between milk fats and proteins, this is hardly a reliable indicator of the effects of full or low fat milk on tea catechins. (fats can enhance the absorption and change the absorption kinetics of polyphenols – 2014, Zhang et al – https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nutrition-research-reviews/article/interaction-of-plant-phenols-with-food-macronutrients-characterisation-and-nutritionalphysiological-consequences

    2. The improvement in FMD with black tea consumption (without milk) is only 3.5%, which is minimal in any event. Similar increases in FMD follow consumption of a high-flavanol cocoa drink, oral ingestion of epicatechin, consumption of dark chocolate, and drinking of white and red wine.

    3. Tea flavan-3-ols include not only catechin, but also epicatechin gallate, epigallocatechin, epigallocatechin gallate, proanthocyanidins, theaflavins and thearubigins. The bioavailability of most if not all of these flavanols are IMPROVED with the addition of milk to black tea.

    4. Not all polyphenols are complexed with milk proteins (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24001682), and the antioxidant activity of all polyphenols INCREASES after the addition of alpha-casein (from 6% to 75%) (Zhang et al, 2014)

    5. There are many complex macronutrient synergies occurring between tea and other nutrients in the diet. For example, carbohydrates enhance the absorption and extend the time needed to reach a maximal plasma concentration of polyphenols (Zhang et al)

    6. Research (Xie et al, Oct 2013, Bourassa et al, 2013, Moser et al, December 2014) demonstrate that when adding milk to tea (i.e., pre-consumption) milk minerals immediately increase tea flavanol bioaccessibility, milk protein (casein) reduce tea flavanol bioaccessibility – but the latter is completely reversed during human digestion (post consumption). Thus, the addition of milk increases (not decreases) the net bioavailability of tea polyphenols.

    The following is the effect of adding milk to tea and consuming (subject to other nutritional synergies). By complexing, milk protein initially DECREASES the bioaccessability of flavan-3-ols. However, counteracting this:

    1. Milk minerals INCREASE flavanol bioaccesability – even prior to digestion

    2. Post-consumption digestion breaks down these complexes, making polyphenols fully bioavailable.

    ‘Milk protein, most notably S-CSN, significantly decreased (p < 0.05) bioaccessibility of flavan-3-ols relative to JK buffer controls (10 relative to 32%). Interestingly, the presence of milk minerals significantly INCREASED (p < 0.05) flavan-3-ol bioaccessibility compared to that of controls (32 relative to 18%). These data combined with SDS-PAGE and fluorometric analyses suggest that both milk proteins and minerals may alter flavan-3-ol bioaccessibility, but normal GI digestion appears to minimize the impact of specific protein interactions’.

    Moser et al, 2014: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0963996914006188

    ‘To summarize, these data suggest that milk addition may increase catechin bioavailability by enhancing their transepithelial absorption and uptake from green tea extract’.

    Xie et al, 2013: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0963996912003079

    ‘using lipid peroxidation method, we noticed of the antioxidant activity of all the polyphenols changed (from 6% up to 75%) after the addition of alpha-casein. The results show using this method the larger gallate esters containing polyphenols epicatechingallate (ECG) and (epigallocatechingallate (EGCG) were less affected by the presence of casein than smaller polyphenols catechins (C), epicatechin (EC) and epicgallocatechine (EGC).

    Bourassa et al, 2013: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24001682

    ‘when plant phenols are consumed along with food macronutrients, the bioavailability and bioactivity of polyphenols can be significantly affected. The protein–polyphenol complexes can significantly change the plasma kinetics profile but do not affect the absorption of polyphenols. Carbohydrates can enhance the absorption and extend the time needed to reach a maximal plasma concentration of polyphenols, and fats can enhance the absorption and change the absorption kinetics of polyphenols. Moreover, as highlighted in the present review, not only a nutrient alone but also certain synergisms between food macronutrients have a significant effect on the bioavailability and biological activity of polyphenols.

    ‘Recently, we showed that milk protein–polyphenol complexes lead to significant changes in the plasma kinetics profile but do not affect the absorption and bioactivity of polyphenols both in rats and in human subjects( 9 , 10 )

    2014, Zhang et al – https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nutrition-research-reviews/article/interaction-of-plant-phenols-with-food-macronutrients-characterisation-and-nutritionalphysiological-consequences

    On the evidence, milk favourably enhances the bioavailability of tea polyphenols. But hey, dont let the facts get in the way of a good story.

    1. Very interesting and eye-opening research Pete.

      I can’t drink milk as it (literally) causes a pain in my neck. But this has got me wondering if goat milk or goat whey can have the same effect on polyphenols?

      I drink a lot of tea and would hope to get the best results from doing so.

      1. Hi Lonie,

        A pain in the neck. Thats quite fascinating. I expect it is not referring to your demeanor?
        Goat milk would probably function is much the same way as cows milk. That is, milk proteins ultimately increase (not decrease) the bio availability of milk polyphenols. Which is not the message you are getting hereabouts.
        Not to mention the nutritional benefit of milk. There is no plant-based milk which has a similar effect, except perhaps fermented soy/tea – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24731340. What happens once it hits the gut is anyone’s guess.

        1. Goat milk would probably function is much the same way as cows milk. That is, milk proteins ultimately increase (not decrease) the bio availability of milk polyphenols.
          ———————————————————————————————————–
          Thanks Pete. I trust your intuitive judgement on this. I’ll be buying a can of condensed goat’s milk the next time I grocery shop, to add to my tea.

          1. Additional thought… since chocolate also contains catechins, I’m wondering if milk chocolate, which we’ve been taught is inferior to dark chocolate, also benefits when broken down in the gut. I’m a big chocolate eater and maybe now I will include some milk chocolate morsels with my unsweetened Baker’s 100% cacoa dark chocolate squares.

            There are so many things I do that deviate from the norm, I wonder aloud if I’ll ever see research that addresses my regimen specifically. That is, I am currently doing two sessions of 10 minutes each, of Whole Body Vibration.

            This has shown in a murine model to convert gut bacteria into another form called Alistipes, which are very good at producing butyrate… a benefical short chain fatty acid.

            I guess I am an N-1 observational study.

            1. Lonie,

              Like tea, cocoa (raw, unprocessed, non-alkalised cocoa) has polyphenols, and milk proteins make them more bioavailable. Ordinary (processed) dairy milk chocolate has less polyphenols, dark chocolate more so, and RAW non-alkalised cocoa more again. Preferably organic, albeit a lot of cocoa is organic anyway.
              This is what I do. Purchase raw, non-alkalised cocoa powder, add hot water, frothed milk, and erythritol/stevia. It delivers a big hit of polyphenols plus acts as a significant magnesium supplement. Which is very important. Make sure from the supplier the cocoa is low in cadmium, and/or follow a plant-based diet – which will help detox the cadmium. The processing (alkalisation) of cocoa in milk chocolate makes it less beneficial, not to mention all that sugar.
              Caffeine in cocoa is a brain stimulant, but phytochemicals theobromine and phenethylamine increase serotonin and dopamine levels, relaxes smooth muscle (caffeine effects the central nervous system and theobromine mostly affects smooth muscle), stimulates the heart, acts as a diuretic, elevates feelings, boosts cognition, and decreases appetite. Theobromine (fatal in dogs) is a stimulant in humans but unlike caffeine it has negligible effects on attention/alertness. My genetics do not allow me to process caffeine/methylglyoxal, so only de-caffeinated coffee for me. But I find hot cocoa/milk is a definite relaxant. It affects my adenosine receptors in quite the opposite manner to coffee/tea. These are part of the stress response (excite/calm) system. I believe the process itself is extremely complex, and not fully understood. But clearly, there are compounds in cocoa which act as a relaxant/sedative despite the supposedly more dominant stimulants (e.g., caffeine, which more effectively crosses the blood/brain barrier) in coffee. At least for me. Or it may be the combination of milk and cocoa compounds?

              Interested in butyrate if you have details. Sounds like a potential diabetes treatment?

              1. Interested in butyrate if you have details. Sounds like a potential diabetes treatment?
                ——————————————————————————————————————
                Indeed, that is what is suggested in this one murine study:

                https://neurosciencenews.com/whole-body-vibration-diabetes-14739/

                “Changes they saw included increasing levels of a bacterium that makes short chain fatty acids, which can help the body better utilize glucose, they report in the International Journal of Molecular Sciences. Glucose is used by the body for fuel but at high levels promotes inflammation, insulin insensitivity and ultimately can cause diabetes.

                While there were other changes, the most dramatic they documented was the 17-fold increase in this bacterium called Alistipes, a gut bacterium not typically in high supply there but known to be proficient at making short chain fatty acids which, in turn, are “very good” at decreasing inflammation in the gut, says Dr. Jack Yu, chief of pediatric plastic surgery at MCG. Alistipes, which helps ferment our food without producing alcohol, generally improves the metabolic status of our gut and makes us more proficient at using the glucose we consume for energy … it appears to help address a key concern in diabetes and many common diseases: inflammation. While acute inflammation helps us fight disease, chronic inflammation helps start and sustain a variety of diseases from cardiovascular problems to cancer as well as diabetes.”

                A much less detailed study apparently didn’t do much other than put some people in a chair on a vibrating table (for only ~ 5 minutes) and IIRC, didn’t check the microbiome for changes. Found some positive changes for the brain but otherwise nothing noticeable. I personally dismiss this one but feel it is necessary to include it as part of the “science.”

                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6299320/#idm139876351297456title

                My personal experience:

                I’ve been doing this almost daily for the past couple of months. I’ve noticed a big difference in my bowel movements for one thing. Depending on what I eat, I sometimes have a daily dump of a nice volume. Other times I may go two or 3 days between, but with no constipation pains or straining when I do urgently need to go.

                I get the feeling that my gut has adjusted to stripping every bit of nutrition and energy from my food, much like an owl eats a mouse and then casts out a furry pellet. This leads me to believe the Alistipes that other gut bacteria are converted to have this whole new way of digestion.

                And this is subjective, but I feel I am more able to grasp the words I’m wanting to use when writing or speaking.

                1. Follow up:

                  Since doing the WBV regimen, I’ve come to realize I’m seldom hungry. And if I do feel a mild twinge of hunger, a cup of tea and a biscuit or two… or even a small chunk of unsweetened dark chocolate accompanied by a few semi-sweet dark chocolate drops.

                  I sometimes have to force myself to open a can of soup thinking I need to eat something a little more nutritious. To be clear, I do take supplements by the double hands full so I’m not actually lacking in nutrition.

                  Oh, and my energy levels are up since doing the WBV regimen.

                  1. How is your innovative movie/camera project going?
                    ———————————————————————–
                    On hold for the time being… waiting on a good easy-to-use software to stitch the 6 images together seamlessly. But anyway, I’m committed to writing a script for now. Once that’s done (taking a few days off to be here and clear my head for new thinking) then I will turn to production side of things type thinking.

                    1. And don’t forget, Lonie. You’re giving me more than just being a part of “background.” I get speaking lines too! And cute sexy costumes. *_*

                    2. Y R, you do remember me saying the role I have in mind for you is the younger companion of an old cow dog handler who is trying to sign on with a cattle drive (in future dystopian times.) There will be speaking lines aplenty, but I’m afraid the cute, sexy costumes are out of the question.

                      O.K., maybe the costume designer can come up with some Daisy Mae Dogpatch rags for you to wear. ‘-)

                    3. “O.K., maybe the costume designer can come up with some Daisy Mae Dogpatch rags for you to wear. ‘-)”
                      – – – – –

                      Oh goodie! *claps hands* Daisy Mae was always one of my idols. And I used to have a crush on hunky Lil’ Abner. Mammy Yokum was a strong force to be reckoned with, too.

            2. “There are so many things I do that deviate from the norm,”
              – – – –

              Lonie:

              Hey, “no shit, Sherlock!” But that’s a good thing. Very creative, you seem to be….stirring up various concoctions in your cauldron ‘n everything. :-)

              1. you seem to be….stirring up various concoctions in your cauldron ‘n everything. :-)
                ———————————————————————————–
                Heh, it’s Halloween 365 days a non-leap-year around my house. ‘-)

    2. Welcome back Pete. Still defending the dairy industry and promoting dairy consumption I see.

      I have to go out now but your last link is broken. Re your second last link, you forgot to mention that your Bourassa et study reported

      ‘We found that using the ABTS(+) assays, the antioxidant activity of all polyphenols was lowered by 11-27% in the presence of caseins.’

      I suspect that avoiding dairy is still the safest option for people in advanced economies.

      1. Hi there Tom,

        Yes, I pop-in at milk-bashup time. Providing the other, ‘untold’ side of the story so to speak.

        Milk-bashers refer to Lorenz et al as good reason to not add milk to tea.
        They insist on quoting the research the authors themselves have backed away from. ‘As we have shown in Table 2 of our paper, tea catechins become complexed as soon as milk is added to tea. Whether these complexes are broken down after digestion of the caseins and whether the catechins are subsequently released and absorbed later on represent interesting questions’. Indeed, an essential more so than ‘interesting’ detail, which they failed to examine. Making their study rather worthless. Except for those who are erroneously inclined to refer to this as scientific gospel.
        Making a completely flawed argument seem far more credible than it really is. Of course, what happens once the combination of milk/tea polyphenols enter the human gut is the only thing that really matters. The studies I refer to cover this more relevant aspect. They demonstrate that in-vitro casein/polyphenol bonds are broken within the human digestive system. Ergo, milk in tea does not reduce its polyphenol potential. In fact, milk proteins provide a net increase in polyphenol potential once digested. The best in vitro studies (such as Lorenz) can do is measure this potential, but outside the human body. Which is an extremely conditional and unreliable measure. As also demonstrated by Bourassa et al. Their in-vitro assay found (depending on the assay they used) the addition of milk proteins in a test-tube lowered tea polyphenols 11-27%, lowered oxidative reduction from 21 to 61%, but (using the lipid peroxidation assay) increased antioxidant activity from 6% to 75%.
        In short, tea polyphenols reduced, oxidative reduction reduced, antioxidant activity dramatically increased, and activity within the gut (the most important assay) …unknown. To establish this we have to read the other studies I quoted. Incidentally, if I had to favour any of those assays it would be lipid peroxidation. Given its association with cardiovascular disease. That said, they only measure in-vitro potential, which is not a reliable guide.

        Zhang et al. page 1, https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f550/22384c1c743290dcdcf1dfdcc114f786bb3b.pdf

        1. Hi Pete

          This is my third attempt at a reply. The previous two disappeared so I am now taking my own advice and drafing this shorter response in Notepad before attempting to post it.

          I can’t think of any good reason why researchers would be ‘milk bashers’ unless they were militant ‘vegans’ or militant paleo diet advocates. Those are thin on the ground though. On the other hand, there are some pretty obvious reasons why grant-hungry researchers might be ‘milk apologists’.

          The last time you posted a long list of citations to support your defence of dairy, at least two thirds of them were either funded by the dairy industry or conducted by researchers with long-standing links to the industry. The Moser article which you again quote though was behind a paywall and I couldn’t see any funding source or financial disclosures listed. However, it is exceedingly odd to study green tea and milk. Nobody, as far as I am aware, drinks green tea and milk. The issue is drinking black tea and milk – a widespread practice in British Commonwealth countries. Further it was a ‘relative’ study – ie it studied the effect relative to the effect of a control solution. What is more, it in fact studied the effect of milk proteins relative to the effect of a control solution of milk salts. How comparing the effects of one milk fraction with the effects of another milk fraction on flavonol absorption from green tea, is supposed to prove that drinking actual milk with black tea doesn’t result in impaired absorption is beyond me. If anything, while a perfectly legitimate study, it almost seems like a smoke and mirrors attempt at obfuscation.

          Frankly, I suspect that the problem is not independent researchers (so-called ‘milk bashers’) but carefully designed studies by people with food industry ties (I imagine but do not know for a fact that Moser and lead author Ferruzzi of Purdue’s Department of Food Science have some associations with the food industry).

          1. (I imagine but do not know for a fact that Moser and lead author Ferruzzi of Purdue’s Department of Food Science have some associations with the food industry).
            ———————————————————————————————————————
            Heh, Tom I imagine you still beat your wife although I do not know that for a fact, possibly because she sneaks around behind your back and drinks milk. ‘-)

            1. They work in their university’s Department of Food Science Lonie. I think it’s an entirely reasonable assumption that any and every university Department of Food Science has strong food industry links.

              1. They work in their university’s Department of Food Science Lonie. I think it’s an entirely reasonable assumption that any and every university Department of Food Science has strong food industry links.
                ——————————————————————————————————
                I’ve heard the Seals have a saying… “Assumption is the mother of all FoxtrotUniformCharlieKilo-ups.”

                And what you are doing is tantamount to what a lawyer does when he asks a suggestive question then withdraws it when the opposing lawyer objects. The judge will say something like “the jury will disregard the last statements.” but the offending lawyer knows that he has succeeded in planting the suspicion in the jury’s minds.

                Proof, Tom… evidence.

                1. That’s what you say Lonie. This is what the Purdue Department of Food Science says

                  ‘Industrial Associates
                  The mission of the Industrial Associates Program is to foster a relationship between the Department and industry, to facilitate the exchange of ideas between academia and industry, and to explore research collaboration and employment opportunities for our graduates. This group plays an integral part in developing our undergraduate and graduate programs, so that we can ensure our graduates fulfill industry’s needs.’
                  https://ag.purdue.edu/foodsci/Pages/Industrial-Associates.aspx

                  1. Kudos to you Tom for making my point. That is, the information you posted suggests there are no nefarious dealings between the school and food folk, as your innuendo suggested.

                    And even though this proves my point, you still posted it. Out of character but well received. ‘-)

        2. Thanks for the Zhang et al link by the way. Very interesting.

          I note that they also report

          ‘ In many countries, phenolic-rich foods, such as coffee and tea, are usually consumed with milk. It was observed that the
          radical-scavenging activity of black tea alone was significantly higher than with milk(108). Lorenz et al.(109) showed that the addition of milk to black tea blunted the tea’s beneficial vascular effects, and milk caseins were identified as interfering agents via interaction with tea catechins and the subsequent formation of complexes. Similarly, Hasni et al.(110) reported preferred binding sites in a- and b-caseins for tea catechins and suggested that the binding involves hydrogen bonding and hydrophobic interactions.’

          and of particular note

          ‘the data evidenced the participation of milk fat in the interactions between milk proteins and polyphenols during digestion, resulting in remarkable aggregation. Unlike polyphenol–protein complexes, the complexes formed with proteins and fats did not completely break during digestion and
          thus impaired the bioavailability and antioxidant activity of the polyphenols.’

          This may be one reason why ‘milk apologists’ often study milk protein and polyphenol interactions in isolation rather than looking at actual milk and actual (black) tea

          1. Tom,

            I think you are just choosing to ignore the evidence, particularly Lorenz et al.

            Both you and Dr Greger wrongly advise your respondents that adding milk to tea diminishes the bioavailability of polyphenols. This is completely false, as demonstrated in Table 2, Zhang et al. You are perpetrating a myth, and should cease doing so.

            ‘As summarised in Fig. 2, proteins can reduce the IN VITRO antioxidant activity and significantly change the plasma kinetics profile of polyphenols WITHOUT AFFECTING THE ABSORPTION’. Carbohydrates can extend the time needed to reach a maximal plasma concentration.
            Fats can enhance the absorption and change the absorption kinetics of polyphenols’.

            Table 2 is Zhang et al’s summary of IN VIVO studies, not completely meaningless In Vitro studies you and Dr Greger are inclined to quote:

            https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f550/22384c1c743290dcdcf1dfdcc114f786bb3b.pdf

            Milk proteins (rats) ….biphasic absorption Milk proteins (humans) … delayed absorption Milk fats (humans) …delayed absorption Milk fats (rats) …no effects Milk fats (human) ….no effects

            That is, the only effect milk proteins and milk fats have on tea polyphenol bioavailability is ‘nil’ or ‘delayed’. Arguably, delaying bioavailability is a positive not a negative, but I dont need to labour that point.

            1. Pete

              The article states

              ‘Nevertheless, when polyphenols, milk proteins and fats were ingested together, a significant increase in the median diameter of the emulsion was found during digestion(9). Considering that polyphenols can bind to milk proteins(114) and that proteins can be adsorbed to the surface of lipid droplets(203), the data evidenced the participation of milk fat in the interactions between milk proteins and polyphenols during digestion, resulting in remarkable aggregation. Unlike polyphenol– protein complexes, the complexes formed with proteins and fats did not completely break during digestion and thus impaired the bioavailability and antioxidant activity of the polyphenols’

              I think that is pretty clear and unambiguous. In any case, arguing about the detailed mechanisms by which an adverse effect occurs, as the industry likes to do, also distracts attention from the studies which found equally clear and unambiguous adverse effects on human vascular function eg

              ‘Conclusions: The addition of milk to black tea alters the acute/short-term impact of regular tea consumption on vascular function and blood pressure in young healthy men and women. The exact mechanism for this affect remains unknown and longer-term trials to establish this effect in a range of populations are warranted.’
              https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328634891_Effect_of_adding_milk_to_black_tea_on_vascular_function_in_healthy_men_and_women_a_randomised_controlled_crossover_trial

              And of course the study that the dairy industry and its supporters love to hate

              ‘Flow-mediated dilation (FMD) was measured by high-resolution vascular ultrasound before and 2 h after consumption. Black tea significantly improved FMD in humans compared with water, whereas addition of milk completely blunted the effects of tea. To support these findings, similar experiments were performed in isolated rat aortic rings and endothelial cells. Tea induced vasorelaxation in rat aortic rings and increased the activity of endothelial nitric oxide synthase by phosphorylation of the enzyme in endothelial cells. All effects were completely inhibited by the addition of milk to tea. ‘
              https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/28/2/219/2887513

              But sure let’s argue about the precise mechanisms by which this effect occurs…. if we do that perhaps people will be confused and forget about the adverse effects on vascular health of drinking black tea with milk.

    3. Pete,

      And still, you can’t have Dr. Ornish’s reversing heart disease and all that jazz staying on high fat. It comes to be a choice.

      In areas of Finland, it was going from high-fat dairy to low-fat dairy that stopped them from dropping dead at 40 and 50 years old. Going off the fat also lowered the Alzheimer’s rate.

      People have to choose, but they can’t have it both ways.

      1. I was high-fat dairy when I had my brain break-down.

        When I came here, I was still having hallucinations and night terrors and so many other symptoms and it was high-fat dairy that I gave up.

        I had given up refined carbs and sugar the year before.

        It was giving up cheese and whole milk that did the most to heal my brain.

        I actually had some dairy today at the funeral. Just a little bit because the reception was at a pizza place and the owner had done a special pizza for me because they are the pizza place we have gone to all of our lives and they still think I am a vegetarian.

        My father had arranged for it and he still can’t quite get the whole vegan thing either and he just needed a cat scan and he might be the several-th person in a row to get a kidney cancer diagnosis. Not sure yet, but that is what they are checking for. I have lost track of how many people have gotten that diagnosis within the past 12 months.

        1. Pete,

          I know that you are not for people eating and drinking a whole lot of high-fat dairy. I believe that you said that once and I was a vegetarian with a high-fat dairy diet and did end up with serious brain problems and blood sugar problems and weight problems.

          When the area of Finland which started having people die very young switched from other types of farming to dairy, they had the thought, “Dairy is good for us” and didn’t have a balancing concept that saturated fats might kill us in our 40’s and 50’s. They didn’t stop drinking dairy entirely, but they did lower their fat intake tremendously and that caused an 84% improvement in heart attacks and in a more recent study, there was almost a 90% improvement in Alzheimer’s.

          I have relatives who drank milk in moderation and they did have longevity and I have relatives who drank a lot of dairy and my mother died at 53.

          But high-fat dairy is what I went off and my brain started healing.

          Somehow in the battle of the studies, that reality that people like Dr. Ornish have reversed heart disease getting people off of the saturated fats and animal products has to be left in place, not torn down.

          1. Deb,

            If you feel better dont change anything. Notwithstanding this, if you have followed the saturated fat debate on this list, you will know there is no great certainty on the subject, with the majority of studies now suggesting saturated dairy fat may be beneficial. Moreover, saturated dairy fats constitutes only about 25% of total saturated/trans fat consumption in Western diets. The remaining 75% of dietary saturated fat is consumed in the form of cakes, cookies, quick bread, pastry, pie, salad dressings, mayonnaise, margarine, frankfurters, sausages, luncheon meats, crackers, popcorn, pretzels, chips, poultry, nuts, seeds (including nut butters, pastes), pork, ham, bacon, biscuits, corn bread, pancakes, tortillas, yeast breads and rolls, milk desserts, potatoes (white), eggs, candy, sugars and sugary foods.
            Table 5 – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3546624/ I believe we would all be better off if Nutritionfacts concentrated on the 75% (which is not likely to be beneficial) rather than the 25% (which increasingly appears to be beneficial).

    4. And cigarette smokers have lower risk of Parkinson’s disease likely due to nicotine. There is obviously no compelling argument to start smoking though. The same logic applies in this case:
      Dairy product ingestion is associated with a significantly increased risk for cancer, all cause mortality, fracture risk and a host of other diseases therefore it doesn’t make much sense to ingest it in any case. There are likely plenty of other non-risky foods that one can ingest to attain the same possible side benefits as shown in the studies that you cite.

      1. Absolute nonsense Ben,

        Unless of course you choose to believe the 16% against the 81% ? …..

        ‘1. Out of 153 reported meta-analyses (comparing highest vs lowest dairy consumption) in the 42 PMASRs, 109 (71%) showed no evidence of a statistically significant association between dairy consumption and incidence of cancers, 20 (13%) showed decreased risk of cancers with dairy consumption and 24 (16%) showed increased risk of cancers with dairy consumption’.

        The only cancer legitimately associated with dairy is prostate cancer.
        However….

        ‘Statistical heterogeneity generates uncertainty in the observed results (up to I2 = 77.1%). In conclusion, although there are some data indicating that higher consumption of dairy products could increase the risk of prostate cancer, the evidence is not consistent’

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31089741

        More than likely because the association is with calcium (regardless of source) rather than dairy per se.

        2. All cause mortality.

        ‘The highest quintile of total dairy product consumption (versus the lowest) was associated with 19% lower all-cause mortality risk (hazard ratio (HR) = 0.81, 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.72, 0.91; *P*trend = 0.006) and 28% lower CVD mortality risk (HR = 0.72, 95% CI: 0.60, 0.86; *P*trend = 0.005).

        High consumption of low-fat dairy food was associated with lower risk of all-cause (HR = 0.83, 95% CI: 0.73, 0.94; *P*trend = 0.002) and CVD (HR = 0.74, 95% CI: 0.61, 0.89; *P*trend = 0.001) mortality. We noted 11% lower all-cause mortality and 16% lower CVD mortality risk with high yogurt intake. Cheese intake was associated with 16% lower all-cause mortality and 26% lower CVD mortality risk. Higher intake of high-fat dairy food and milk was not associated with all-cause or CVD mortality. Neither intake of individual dairy products nor intake of total dairy products was significantly associated with overall cancer mortality. High consumption of dairy products, especially yogurt and cheese, may reduce the risk of overall and CVD mortality.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5860026/

        ‘In conclusion, dairy product consumption is not associated with risk of all-cause mortality’.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31089743

        ‘No associations were found for total (high-fat/low-fat) dairy, and milk with the health outcomes of mortality, CHD or CVD. Inverse associations were found between total fermented dairy (included sour milk products, cheese or yogurt; per 20 g/day) with mortality (RR 0.98, 95% CI 0.97-0.99; I 2 = 94.4%) and CVD risk (RR 0.98, 95% CI 0.97-0.99; I2 = 87.5%). Further analyses of individual fermented dairy of cheese and yogurt showed cheese to have a 2% lower risk of CVD (RR 0.98, 95% CI 0.95-1.00; I2 = 82.6%) per 10 g/day, but not yogurt.’

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28374228

        ‘Data from this systematic review indicate that the consumption of various forms of dairy products shows either favorable or neutral associations with cardiovascular-related clinical outcomes’.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28140321

        ‘Our findings suggest that the consumption of total and low-fat dairy products, milk, and yogurt is inversely associated with the risk of MetS’

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31089736

        ‘This meta-analysis showed that specific types of dairy food consumption such as milk and yogurt as well as total dairy food consumption were inversely related to risk of the MetS and its components’.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29871703

        3. Hip Fractures

        ‘Our findings indicate that consumption of yogurt and cheese was associated with lower risk of hip fracture in cohort studies. However, the consumption of total dairy products and cream was not significantly associated with the risk of hip fracture. There was insufficient evidence to deduce the association between milk consumption and risk of hip fracture. A lower threshold of 200 g/day milk intake may have beneficial effects, whereas the effects of a higher threshold of milk intake are unclear’.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5778815/

        I have a theory relating to hip fractures. Just a theory, thats all. It is not good policy to consume dairy products in the absence of adequate vitamin D and vitamin K.

      2. Certainly dairy industry funded studies, and studies led by people with dairy industry ties, find that dairy does not have an adverse effect.

        That might indeed be true in the sense that eating dairy in place of red and processed meats, and in place refined carbohydrates, is probably the lesser of three evils.

        However, what results do we get when the deluge of studies by people with industry ties are excluded? And dairy consumption is compared to eating a whole food plant based diet? As Harvard has pointed out

        “For dairy lovers, the good news is that various foods including full-fat dairy milk, yogurt, butter, cheeses, and cream were not found to increase heart disease risk (compared to a background diet that typically contains high amounts of refined carbohydrates and sugars). However, it is important to note that these foods were not found to decrease risk either.

        What did predict risk of cardiovascular disease was “fat swapping.” When dairy fat was replaced with the same number of calories from vegetable fat or polyunsaturated fat, the risk of cardiovascular disease dropped by 10% and 24%, respectively. Furthermore, replacing the same number of calories from dairy fat with healthful carbohydrates from whole grains was associated with a 28% lower risk of cardiovascular disease.”

        https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2016/10/25/dairy-fat-cardiovascular-disease-risk/

        Personally, skipping the dairy in favour of whole grains and a 28% lower risk of CVD seems the best option to me.

    5. ‘Recently, we showed that milk protein–polyphenol complexes lead to significant changes in the plasma kinetics profile but do not affect the absorption and bioactivity of polyphenols both in rats and in human subjects( 9 , 10 )
      2014, Zhang et al – https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/nutrition-research-reviews/article/interaction-of-plant-phenols-with-food-macronutrients-characterisation-and-nutritionalphysiological-consequences

      On the evidence, milk favourably enhances the bioavailability of tea polyphenols. But hey, dont let the facts get in the way of a good story.’

      That’s completely misleading Pete. Milk contains a lot more than just proteins and Zhang et al state in black and white that milk proteins and milk fats TOGETHER impaired polyphenol absorption. Strangely you don’t mention that despite the fact that it is right there in the very paper that you yourself cite and quote from.

  10. In this article you mention that adding dairy to tea inhibits it’s beneficial properties. Is that the same with dairy alternatives like almond, oat or cashew milks?

  11. Oh but tea! What sad news. If it were possible to finally develop a liking for tea (doubtful), after living for years in Italy the thought is just so depressing.

    1. If it were possible to finally develop a liking for tea…
      ———————————————————————–
      Rosalind, maybe a gateway drug like blueberry tea for instance, can help you transition to drinking black or green tea?

  12. Rather than looking at associations, where I can find an explanation for mechanisms of cardiovascular disease, hypertension and diabetes? The cliffs notes version.

      1. It would be nice if there was a flow chart or troubleshooting manual for those diseases. Many of those causes of high blood pressure may not apply to an individual.

    1. Arthur,

      I would just say read “How Not to Die” or watch the videos and if that is too much, do Dr. Ornish’s diet. (That is what I told someone at the funeral I went to today because they have zero understanding at all that diet can help and Dr. Ornish reversed heart disease, cancer, depression, etc.) I don’t think he did a study on Diabetes, but his diet fits in the mechanism where if you have Type 2 Diabetes, you may be able to just go off animal products and saturated fats and reverse it in a few weeks. The Mastering Diabetes site has a formula in their blog section to give an indicator of whether you can succeed with just diet.

      His reversed heart disease to the degree that someone no longer needed a heart transplant, so that already is so excellent that you will be a happy camper.

      Plus, if you are old enough to be on Medicare, you might be able to have his program paid for.

      1. Arthur,

        I just realized that How Not to Die is as far away from a Cliffs Notes version as possible.

        Dr Gregers How Not to Die videos are a lot shorter than the book.

      2. The idea of a diet pattern associated with benefits is OK but I’d still prefer to understand the root cause. I figure that if it can’t be explained in simple terms then it isn’t understood very well. I mean why do doctors give blood pressure medication to treat symptoms but are not able to tell people what they can do with diet and lifestyle to cure the problem? If they understood the problem well they could say that there’s a reason or reasons why this high blood pressure is untreatable and we must prescribe these drugs to treat the symptoms. Also, different diets will produce different states in the body. It would change the treatment method. For example the relationship between insulin, sodium and blood pressure. On a high carb diet you would want to restrict sodium because you have insulin spikes after every meal. But on a low carb diet you would want the sodium because you don’t get insulin spikes after every meal. I don’t get it very well. I got this from a YT video. Here’s the link with the timestamp: https://youtu.be/gyZVTsHyLU0?t=1599.

    2. Hi, Arthur! There are many things that contribute to the development of cardiovascular disease, hypertension and diabetes. A big one is inflammation, and that is exacerbated by diet and lifestyle factors such as stress, sleep, and sedentary habits. Lipids, especially saturated fats, trans fats and cholesterol play a huge role, by accumulating in the skeletal muscle and blood vessels, blocking the insulin receptors, and leading to insulin resistance. Another is TMAO, formed by certain intestinal bacteria when they break down carnitine and choline, abundant in animal products, and then oxidized. Oxidation is another part of the process, and is reduced with a diet high in antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables, and low in free-radical-forming foods. Our muscles and blood vessels get clogged with fat and cholesterol, and then insulin doesn’t work as well, and blood does not flow freely. Inflammation makes blood vessels stiff, so they don’t dilate the way they should, and caffeine appears to make that worse by preventing blood vessel dilation and increasing heart rate. In addition, there is a sort of cholesterol-related compound in coffee known as cafestol, which is largely removed by paper filters, but not with other methods of brewing. If you have not already seen them, these videos might interest you: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not-to-die-from-heart-disease/ https://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-coffee-affect-cholesterol/ You can find everything on this site related to cardiovascular disease here: https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/cardiovascular-disease/ Everything about hypertension is here: https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/hypertension/ and everything about diabetes is here: https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/diabetes/ I hope that helps!

  13. Fumbles, I was looking at a few pages today on the topic of fasting and heart disease risk factors. I thought you might be interested in having a look.

    https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-11-

    http://www.drmirkin.com/nutrition/why-we-use-intermittent-fasting.html

    In my own case, I have noticed that cholesterol levels decline along with significant weight loss, even if i didn’t need to lose the weight in the first place. Over time, they
    climb back to previous levels. It might be interesting for me to experiment with fasting 1 or 2 days per week to see if it makes a difference.

    1. Thanks Barb.

      As YR notes, the first link doesn’t work. I think you missed copying the final part of the address.

      In practice, like YR, I already do what is in effect a 14-hour overnight fast although I sometimes have a black coffee towards the end of that ‘fasting’ period.

      It used to be tea but I have been reduced to drinking coffee since drinking tea on an empty stomach now makes me nauseous. So does coffee eventually but I have to drink 3 or 4 cups to induce nausea whereas it only takes one cup of tea. Hmm. there’s a thought. I will have to try green and or white tea instead – they tend to be much milder than black tea.

      Yes, cholesterol declining with weight loss is well known. Of course, coffee raises cholesterol too. I can’t recall if you drink coffee but switching to green tea could help lower your cholesterol eg

      ‘CONCLUSION:
      The analysis of eligible studies showed that the administration of green tea beverages or extracts resulted in significant reductions in serum TC and LDL-cholesterol concentrations, but no effect on HDL cholesterol was observed.’
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21715508

      I believe that Oolong tea and Pu-er tea also have cholesterol lowering effects. Black tea is not thought to have any effects on cholesterol levels.

  14. Barb, I couldn’t pick up the first link. But from your second one:

    “eating three meals (morning, noon, early evening) and then fasting overnight from 6PM to 7AM,”

    That’s the way I “fast,” if you could call it fasting. But my time frame is more like 6 PM to 8 AM. 14 hours, right?

  15. Thanks for letting me know about the link Y R. This one should work.

    Yes, I currently now do the same as you YR. I think it’s good to let blood sugars go down, and rest between meals. Now I am hungry for the next meal and don’t feel bloated between times.

    They talk about different styles of fasting, and Dr Mirkin and his wife had issues they addressed through a fasting style of their own. They normally eat 2 meals a day, breakfast and a late lunch. Then, on alternate days, they only eat breakfast. (so, less than 500 cal) The both of them are very active in their bicycling club. He is 5ft 10 as I recall and 138 lbs. She is 5ft 3 and 110. This plan is a little austere for me.. I would get too hungry. But the link I provided talks about fasting 1 day, plus daily calorie restriction resulting in cardiac benefits. The Daily Dozen is already modest calorie restriction, so it sounds doable to me.

    https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-11-98

    1. “She is 5ft 3 and 110.”

      — – – – –

      I’m an inch and a half taller, and I too weigh 110. (And I’ll stick to my three squares.)

    1. Hi, Hendrik! That’s not a stupid question. When arteries cannot dilate, they cannot adjust to changing needs for blood flow in the body. Think of it like what happens when you restrict flow of water through a hose. Pressure builds up, which in arteries leads to hypertension, which is damaging to the cardiovascular system, especially the kidneys. If the hose is weakened by damage and stress, the hose can break, especially if it is clogged with something, like arterial plaques. In short, impaired arterial function can lead to kidney failure, heart attacks, and strokes. You can find more information here: https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/10/30/how-to-improve-artery-function/ I hope that helps!

    1. Thanks for the reply Barb. I was actually looking more for some more causative mechanism, i.e. how does impaired arterial function cause cardiovascular disease? The fact that it is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease, may simply mean that both are independently caused by the same bad lifestyle habits.

      1. Not sure if this is what you want?

        ‘Coronary artery disease (CAD, also called coronary heart disease, or CHD) is caused by the narrowing of the large blood vessels that supply the heart with oxygen. These are called coronary arteries. Arteries that have become extremely narrow can cause shortness of breath and chest pain during physical activity. If a coronary artery suddenly becomes completely blocked, it can result in a heart attack.’
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK355313/

        1. Hi, thanks for the link, I had a look at it, but it says that the cause of CAD is:-
          “CAD is caused by arteriosclerosis (hardening of the blood vessels). Arteriosclerosis develops from minor inflammations in the walls of blood vessels. Cells, fats and other substances stick to the walls there and form deposits.”
          This does not seem to be the result of reduced ability of the arteries to dilate (although hardening of arteries would cause impairment of the ability to dilate). So at this point, I still do not see how impairment of the ability of arteries to dilate would cause CAD, although it would be independently caused by the causes of CAD.

          1. I am not sure that I understand your question. ‘Hardening of the arteries’ is surely the same thing as ‘reduced ability to dilate’?

            1. Not in my understanding of it. The ability of arteries to dilate is enabled by some messengers like nitrogen oxide, and is blocked by some substances in food (e.g. something in coffee in the video above). Hardened arteries are due to cholesterol plaques. This also causes reduction in ability to dilate (amongst other things), but they are not the same. In this video, it was established that coffee with caffeine causes reduced ability to dilate, but not hardening of the the arteries (Arteriosclerosis).

          2. Hendrik,

            Flow Mediated Dilation (FMD) measures the ability of arteries to dilate.
            This identifies endothelial dysfunction (atherosclerosis), a precursor (and thereby a predictor) of vascular alterations and CVD. The arteries are dilated with nitric oxide in response to an imposed increase in blood flow and shear stress. It is also useful in examining the impact of medical or therapeutic interventions.

            The Mayo Clinic describe atherosclerosis as follows:

            Atherosclerosis is a slow, progressive disease that may begin as early as childhood. Although the exact cause is unknown, atherosclerosis may start with damage or injury to the inner layer of an artery. The damage may be caused by:

            – High blood pressure – High cholesterol – High triglycerides, a type of fat (lipid) in your blood – Smoking and other sources of tobacco – Insulin resistance, obesity or diabetes – Inflammation from diseases, such as arthritis, lupus or infections, or inflammation of unknown cause

            Once the inner wall of an artery is damaged, blood cells and other substances often clump at the injury site and build up in the inner lining of the artery.

            Over time, fatty deposits (plaque) made of cholesterol and other cellular products also build up at the injury site and harden, narrowing your arteries. The organs and tissues connected to the blocked arteries then don’t receive enough blood to function properly.

            Eventually, pieces of the fatty deposits may break off and enter your bloodstream.

            In addition, the smooth lining of the plaque may rupture, spilling cholesterol and other substances into your bloodstream. This may cause a blood clot, which can block the blood flow to a specific part of your body, such as occurs when blocked blood flow to your heart causes a heart attack.
            A blood clot can also travel to other parts of your body, blocking flow to another organ.
            Risk factors

            Hardening of the arteries occurs over time. Besides aging, factors that increase the risk of atherosclerosis include:

            – High blood pressure – High cholesterol – Diabetes – Obesity – Smoking and other tobacco use – A family history of early heart disease – Lack of exercise – An unhealthy diet

            https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/arteriosclerosis-atherosclerosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350569

            1. Once the inner wall of an artery is damaged, blood cells and other substances often clump at the injury site and build up in the inner lining of the artery.
              ——————————————————————————————————–
              This is why I supplement daily with White Willow Bark.

              “Many believe that willow is the natural source of aspirin. However, willow species contain only a low quantity of the prodrug salicin which is metabolized during absorption into various salicylate derivatives. If calculated as salicylic acid, the daily salicin dose is insufficient to produce analgesia. Salicylic acid concentrations following an analgesic dose of aspirin are an order of magnitude higher. Flavonoids and polyphenols contribute to the potent willow bark analgesic and anti-inflammatory effect. The multi-component active principle of willow bark provides a broader mechanism of action than aspirin and is devoid of serious adverse events. In contrast to synthetic aspirin, willow bark does not damage the gastrointestinal mucosa. An extract dose with 240 mg salicin had no major impact on blood clotting. In patients with known aspirin allergy willow bark products are contraindicated.”

              https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21226125

              What’s not mentioned above and I have no link to where I’ve read it… White Willow Bark is very good at managing platelets which are know to aggregate when we have a cut (or insult to an artery as well.) It is the build up of platelets that create the “snag” for cholesterol to grab on to and then build up to close the artery.

              You want some platelet action for things like cuts etc. It is my experience that when I get a cut on the arm from working outside, the cut hardly bleeds and seals up quickly. This suggests the White Willow Bark manages platelet deposition as intended but I believe it also helps keep my arteries from clogging by over production for a damaged artery.

  16. Are there any studies on the benefits or detriments of drinking cocoa? Hot and made with water and just a splash of oat or soy milk. Similar to coffee or tea?

  17. I read a study years ago that showed great health benefits of adding lemon to tea after it had been steeping for several minutes. I think the benefits for greater when lemon was added to black tea then to Green tea. Sorry I don’t remember the source.

    1. I read a study years ago that showed great health benefits of adding lemon to tea
      ——————————————————————————————–
      Fawn, I’ve read over the years that some sort of citrus is beneficial. I understand that Earl Grey tea has bergamot in it which is a form of citrus. I drink many teas so I purchased some bergamot extract and cut it with water, then sprinkle some in every glass or cup of “tea” I drink, no matter if it is not actual tea.

      I always cold brew so I have no idea if warm brew is necessary for achieving the benefits.

      Oh, and the Queen of England drinks Earl Grey and she may rule for a hundred years at the rate she is going. ‘-)

  18. I have been reading everyone’s comments over the weekend and the most surprising thing was no mentioned abstinence of caffeine products .
    I have been coffee free and tea free 2 weeks and from the third day on have noticed much better sleep quality and quantity . From 5 to 6 hours sleep to 7 hours a night and better sleep quality .
    According to this website the healthiest people in North America are the 7th day Adventist , who do not use coffee , tea, alcohol ,drugs or tobacco . At least they are encouraged not to consume those products .
    Coffee-holics may have to rethink their stance.

  19. I was wondering if you knew what I could do to help with my Elhers Danlos Syndrome and Mass Cell Activation disorder. I am suffering horribly and it is causing an unimaginable pain. I am going plant base mainly. But I’m In need of some help. Please.
    Thank you and God Bless

  20. I’m a little shocked that coffee is now considered to be not heart-healthy. I recall in an earlier video here, where coffee was thought to be mildly protective, against cancer. I like it with soy milk. But I also like macha and straight tea, so maybe there’s hope for me!

  21. Just curious if by “milk” the mean dairy? Could you use soy milk without ruining the good effects of the coffee or tea? Or is almond milk better and causes no harm to the effect?

    1. Dave,

      You have been misled.
      Cows milk (like lots of foods) delays, but not diminishes the bioavailability of tea polyphenols. The same probably applies to soy milk …but soy in tea doesnt taste very good.

    2. Hi, Dave! Yes, by milk they are referring to dairy. The addition of dairy milk has been shown to prevent the protective effects of tea on artery function. It’s proposed that this is due to the casein found in dairy milk (one of the milk proteins binding up the tea phytonutrients). Plant-based milks (like soy milk and almond milk) are casein free. Not only does soy milk have some inherent benefits over cow’s milk, it does not have the same nutrient-blocking effects that cow’s milk does. “What seemed to be happening is that the soy proteins do initially bind the coffee compounds up in the small intestine, but then your good bacteria can release them so they can be absorbed down in the lower intestine. So, ‘considering the reversible nature of binding,’ as opposed to the dairy proteins, ‘it seems not to be as relevant’ as to whether or not you add soy milk” (see here: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-adding-milk-block-the-benefits-of-coffee/). In the doctor’s note attached to the linked video, Dr. Greger goes on to state that “almond, rice, and coconut-based milks have so little protein that I doubt there’d be a blocking effect, but they’ve never been tested directly to my knowledge”.

  22. You have not been misled.

    Pete has been promoting the dairy industry and milk products on this site for a long time. He simply refuses to accept evidence that suggests that whole milk may have adverse health effects.

    Milk proteins delay buy do not diminish tea polyphenols. That is correct but irrelevant. Whole milk contains a lot more than just proteins. Zhang et al demonstrated that milk proteins and milk fats TOGETHER bind with tea polyphenols to form complexes that are not fully digested and therefore not fully absorbed. Pete pont blank refuses to accept this.

    The Zhang et al paper is referenced/linked several times in the discussions above.

  23. I remember another study that showed some kind of risk in French pressed coffee but not in paper filter drip coffee. I wonder how the coffee was prepared?

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