The Benefits of Fasting for Healing

The Benefits of Fasting for Healing
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Where did the idea of therapeutic fasting come from?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

The story of life on earth is a story of starvation. Ash from massive volcanoes and asteroids block out the sun, killing the plants, which then killed most everything else. As Darwin pointed out though, from this “war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object that we are capable of conceiving” arose—namely us.

We are “particularly well-adapted to prolonged fasting.” Evolving in a context of scarcity is believed to have shaped “our exceptional ability to store large amounts of [calories] when food is available.” Of course, now our ability to easily pack on pounds is leading to modern diseases like obesity and type 2 diabetes, but without the ability to store so much body fat, we may not have made it to tell the tale.

And it’s not just asteroids millions of years ago. “All of Upper Egypt was dying of hunger,” reads an inscription on an Egyptian tomb from about 4,000 years ago, “to such a degree that everyone had come to eating his children…” Or, just hundreds of years ago: “Parents killed their children and children killed parents” and ate them, and “the
 bodies of executed criminals were eagerly snatched from the gallows.” Wiping out as many as two-thirds of the population of Italy and one-third of the population of Paris. So, we don’t have to go back to ancient history. Even the most secure and affluent populations of today need only trace their history back a short distance. For example, there have been nearly 200 famines in Britain over the last 2,000 years.

Now, we tend to be suffering from too much food, which carries its own problems, but might there be any negative consequences to not ever starving? This was a question raised 50 years ago. I mean, if our physiology is so well-tuned to periodic starvation, maybe by eliminating that we may be doing harm to our overall well-being? We just didn’t know.

The lack of research in the area of starvation was attributed to the “difficulty of securing willing human subjects.’’ So, what little we had came from unwilling subjects. Physicians within the Warsaw Ghetto made detailed accounts before they themselves succumbed; or Irish Republican prisoners starving themselves to death after up to 73 days on hunger strike. But starvation isn’t necessarily the same as fasting, an issue raised in medical journals over a century ago. “Starvation is normally a forced, mentally stressful, and chronic condition, whereas [therapeutic] fasting is voluntary, limited in duration, and usually practiced by people [who start out with adequate nutrition].”

Therapeutic fasting? Where did we get this idea of fasting therapy, fasting for medical purposes? It may have originally arose out of the observation that when people get acutely ill they tend to lose their appetite; so, maybe there’s something in the body’s wisdom to stopping eating. That’s presumably where the whole “starve a fever” folklore came from.

There was this sense that fasting affords physiological rest for the body, not just for the digestive tract, but throughout, allowing the body to concentrate on healing. It was evidently an open secret that veterinarians used to hospitalize dogs only to fast them back to health; and so maybe, the theory went, it might work for people too.

Beyond just freeing up all the resources that would normally be used for nutrient digestion and storage, there’s this concept that during fasting, our cells switch over to some sort of protection mode. Why would fasting reduce free radical damage and inflammation and bolster cellular protection? It’s the that-which-doesn’t-kill-us-makes-us-stronger concept known as hormesis. So, that’s kind of the opposite of the let-the-body-rest theory. It’s more like let-the-body-stress. The stress of fasting may steel the body against other stresses coming your way. This was demonstrated perhaps most starkly in a set of cringeworthy experiments in which mice were blasted with Hiroshima-level gamma radiation sufficient to kill 50 percent within two weeks. But, of the mice who had first been intermittently fasted for six weeks before, not a single one died.

It’s this kind of dramatic data that led to extraordinary claims, like therapeutic fasting could drive half of all doctors out of business. But you don’t know, until you put it to the test, which we’ll explore next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

The story of life on earth is a story of starvation. Ash from massive volcanoes and asteroids block out the sun, killing the plants, which then killed most everything else. As Darwin pointed out though, from this “war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object that we are capable of conceiving” arose—namely us.

We are “particularly well-adapted to prolonged fasting.” Evolving in a context of scarcity is believed to have shaped “our exceptional ability to store large amounts of [calories] when food is available.” Of course, now our ability to easily pack on pounds is leading to modern diseases like obesity and type 2 diabetes, but without the ability to store so much body fat, we may not have made it to tell the tale.

And it’s not just asteroids millions of years ago. “All of Upper Egypt was dying of hunger,” reads an inscription on an Egyptian tomb from about 4,000 years ago, “to such a degree that everyone had come to eating his children…” Or, just hundreds of years ago: “Parents killed their children and children killed parents” and ate them, and “the
 bodies of executed criminals were eagerly snatched from the gallows.” Wiping out as many as two-thirds of the population of Italy and one-third of the population of Paris. So, we don’t have to go back to ancient history. Even the most secure and affluent populations of today need only trace their history back a short distance. For example, there have been nearly 200 famines in Britain over the last 2,000 years.

Now, we tend to be suffering from too much food, which carries its own problems, but might there be any negative consequences to not ever starving? This was a question raised 50 years ago. I mean, if our physiology is so well-tuned to periodic starvation, maybe by eliminating that we may be doing harm to our overall well-being? We just didn’t know.

The lack of research in the area of starvation was attributed to the “difficulty of securing willing human subjects.’’ So, what little we had came from unwilling subjects. Physicians within the Warsaw Ghetto made detailed accounts before they themselves succumbed; or Irish Republican prisoners starving themselves to death after up to 73 days on hunger strike. But starvation isn’t necessarily the same as fasting, an issue raised in medical journals over a century ago. “Starvation is normally a forced, mentally stressful, and chronic condition, whereas [therapeutic] fasting is voluntary, limited in duration, and usually practiced by people [who start out with adequate nutrition].”

Therapeutic fasting? Where did we get this idea of fasting therapy, fasting for medical purposes? It may have originally arose out of the observation that when people get acutely ill they tend to lose their appetite; so, maybe there’s something in the body’s wisdom to stopping eating. That’s presumably where the whole “starve a fever” folklore came from.

There was this sense that fasting affords physiological rest for the body, not just for the digestive tract, but throughout, allowing the body to concentrate on healing. It was evidently an open secret that veterinarians used to hospitalize dogs only to fast them back to health; and so maybe, the theory went, it might work for people too.

Beyond just freeing up all the resources that would normally be used for nutrient digestion and storage, there’s this concept that during fasting, our cells switch over to some sort of protection mode. Why would fasting reduce free radical damage and inflammation and bolster cellular protection? It’s the that-which-doesn’t-kill-us-makes-us-stronger concept known as hormesis. So, that’s kind of the opposite of the let-the-body-rest theory. It’s more like let-the-body-stress. The stress of fasting may steel the body against other stresses coming your way. This was demonstrated perhaps most starkly in a set of cringeworthy experiments in which mice were blasted with Hiroshima-level gamma radiation sufficient to kill 50 percent within two weeks. But, of the mice who had first been intermittently fasted for six weeks before, not a single one died.

It’s this kind of dramatic data that led to extraordinary claims, like therapeutic fasting could drive half of all doctors out of business. But you don’t know, until you put it to the test, which we’ll explore next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Doctor's Note

Initially I had put off doing studies on fasting, since there were so few good studies, but there’s been an explosion in research interest in the last few years. Stay tuned for The World’s Largest Fasting Study.

I do have a bunch of studies already up on fasting and weight loss, though, due to my work on How Not to Diet:

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

206 responses to “The Benefits of Fasting for Healing

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  1. It seems like we NutritionFacts visitors have been put on an Intermittent “Informational” Fasting routine lately. We now get fed two 5-minute videos per week, many of which are teasers. ( We do get the regurgitated blogs on Tuesday and Thursday and a regurgitated video on Friday.)

    Will the nutritional information storage areas of our brains get stronger because of this fasting? Are we ever going to get back to 3 full nutritional information meals a week? ;-)

    Seriously, this is a fantastic website for truthful nutrition information! I have been a loyal visitor here for several years and do appreciate all the efforts of Dr Greger and his team. This is the website that most convinced me to convert to a WPF way of eating! And I have purchased several of Dr Greger’s books for myself and gifts for family and friends.

    1. Darwin: As I see it, Nutritionfacts.org is now an academic endeavor, not a site that alerts the common man and woman of nutritional tips they “can put to the test” immediately by themselves and improve their health. I forwarded a few videos to my daughter, who is a college student but not a science major, and she said she didn’t understand a single thing.

      1. ‘The goal of this website is to present you and your doctor with the results of the latest in peer-reviewed nutrition and health research, presented in a way that is easy to understand.’

        The apparent decision to limit video length to some 5-7 minutes means we get a lot of these ‘to be continued’ type uploads. Mnd you, putting out two new videos per week – following extensive research and fact checking – with a small team is a punishing schedule. It’s little wonder they try to spread the material out in this way (frustrating though this often is).

        As far as I know, this site is not, and never has been intended to be, a ‘nutrition tips’ type website.

        1. I have now been looking at nutrition on this site and others in the WFPB community for 3 years and this is the only site that would have made me interested enough to try to understand it.

          Most of the people here are highly health-oriented or science-oriented or doctors or vegans.

          I found Dr. Greger funny and his passion for wanting to save people’s lives resonated with me.

          1. fasting is probably new to western world &if I
            am not sounding arrogant/authentic,we india ns have been practicing this,for ages+its in o ur puranas/vedic preachings/upanishads-you may comprehend easily if said’scriptures’;;all mythological tales have always mentioned it:
            for celibacy/moksha/vimochana(rituals for att aining penance)upavasana or uposham are essentials/prerequisites for any religious ritu al-that’s FASTING for EU or whatever:
            all sages practiced this sacred ritual prior to any important occasion-construction of templ es/palace of kings/matrimony etc for seeking obeisance/propitious blessings of celestial m asters of universe:but it’s good that western authors/scientists-Will durant,Huxley/Einstei n/Earl s gardener and many more practiced- ‘uposham’ along with‍♀️pranayama&acknowl edged the achievements they derivedthnq
            it’s a way of lifeMaj vs chitrapu:

            1. Fasting has been a common practice in the Western world for thousands of years.

              Hippocrates and Plato advocated fasting for example. Then there is the Bible/Torah where King David was reported as fasting Casting has long been part of Christian and Jewish religious traditions It was no doubt an ancient practice even then since shamans are known to have practised fasting. It would therefore have long predated the Vedas.

              It was also widely practised in the pre-Colombian Americas.

        2. Tom,

          Yes, a very punishing schedule to put up information and allow people to have free access to it.

          Most of the WFPB doctors don’t put up this much information in a week.

          They do interviews on someone’s site but that is different than producing videos as this site does.

        3. As you all may have inferred, my comment was meant purely as humorous sarcasm. My brain couldn’t help seeing the comparison of the the current presentation style with the Fasting concept, the topic of today’s video.

          I appreciate that Dr Greger has a very busy schedule, so I’m not complaining at all! I’m not the type to “equi dentes inspicere donati” (complain about something that I receive for free!) Dr Greger and some of the other WFPB Do’c on the web are all very generous people indeed.

      2. George,

        That is interesting. I came here with zero science background and zero health or nutrition or medical background. I didn’t even know what cholesterol was or any of the basics. Plus, I came with serious brain problems.

        I have learned so much from these videos. But I paired them with science music videos from YouTube.

        My theory is that getting older and having the people surrounding us getting sick and dying is often when we put the extra effort in. Maybe sooner because people get married and have kids and suddenly want to feed them properly.

        I can look at my friends’ children who immediately started adulting when they got married and having children and suddenly they put in the extra time to understand things.

        I didn’t think I had ever heard about any of these doctors ever before but I had heard of Pritikiin and even his name in writing made it easier to watch Dr. Greger and get something out of it. I don’t mean that lightly. It would be like being in a different country and not understanding anything and then someone says a word like “balloon” and points to the sky and it accomplishes something inside where you can anchor yourself to the first word that made sense.

        I traveled through Europe, so I say that from experience.

        You have planted a seed in your daughter’s life and 10 years from now I predict that she will be the one sending you Dr. Greger videos and I mean that.

      3. George there are plenty of vids here which anyone can understand, like redlight, yellow light, greenlight vids and tons of others in the vault…

        All the others can also be understood with a rewind or two, and simply omit the medical jargon. At some point Dr Greger will say somehting like:
        “..So,….does Amla prevent foot fungus after all?……..No.” The transcripts do help.

        Lastly, having her sit through the vids is great, and if she can muster the attention, she will learn, and grow merely trying to understand it rather than simply giving up on it. (its actually a college students only job – learn to think and understand given information)

        1. “she will learn, and grow merely trying to understand it rather than simply giving up on it. (its actually a college students only job – learn to think and understand given information)”

          That’s true, good point.

          Just to clarify, this is not at all about George’s daughter (obviously, I do not know her), but a general statement for what I see around me… People are getting more and more addicted to instant gratification, constant entertainment, and everything coming easy: addicted to convenience. In fact, it’s become almost a religion or a new set of values… If it isn’t convenient, it’s like a WRONG being done; follow the convenience.

      4. George, maybe your daughter wasn’t paying full attention? I’m not saying that to be rude at all, I’m just genuinely wondering because people tend to like info quick without giving their actual non-multitasking attention these days… a lazier population. Otherwise I would be surprised because the way the info is laid out in these videos is really direct. UNLESS you sent her a newer one where he vocally goes through it very fast and uses a lot of hand gestures and such as he’s in the center of the video, then I could easily see being too distracted to absorb the info. I do miss the old style, much calmer and not only easy to follow and absorb all the info, but it was actually relaxing doing so. Some of the oldest ones, he talked WAY too slow. I think the best is in the middle, calm and fluid, not too slow, not too fast, and the science being the focal point instead of Dr. Greger. Watching Dr. Greger in interviews, speeches, etc., he is much calmer and more himself seeming and it’s never distracting when he presents material, in these videos I feel he’s being too much of a character of himself rather than himself. Just my critique. I’ve begun reading the transcripts rather than watching the videos because the new style is kind of stressful for me and very distracting.

    2. Yes it is VERY VERY disappointing these days at NF to have a “TBC”/teaser video — when there are only 2 new videos per week to view. The multi-part series drag out for so very long now.

      I understand that MG cannot produce information faster than we can consume it, but the slow metering out of his interpretations and commentary on the selected video topics gets more painful the slower it happens.

      I do understand that the FBF re-runs are good to help new folks FIND and engage in the thousands of videos in the archive. That’s where I started, digging up everything I could from what archive existed here 6 years ago. It’s a great resource that I still use and recommend to others. But the cost to us is FOUR less new videos per month, which is no big deal-UNTIL

      YOU PUT US TO THE TEST !

      of seeing how many times we’ll keep coming back to find the “answers” to posed video questions and topics. I never quite liked the super short snippet-like format because it forces so many of these “to be continued” situations. I’d rather wait until the LAST of them is done, then watch the ENTIRE SET of videos at one time. I often do just ignore the site until a series is done, despite the routine-busting nature of doing so.

      Since this one may go into next week, I think I’m done this week. I’ll come back in October and see if he’s done with fasting–Hell fire wasn’t it fasting that he dragged out into six or seven videos before?

      With the Fridays spent, video-series are very disappointing. That’s it. Cumulative disappointments happen when the series goes on and on and the Q’s keep dragging out. I’d FAR rather see a 30 or 49 minute video all at once than five-minute snippets that must be compiled to make sense.

      Thanks for the info overall. But dragging the videos out reduces their appeal considerably as I experience it. I won’t harp on about it, there’s no benefit to that, and I expect absolutely nothing to change in this regard. I’ll keep “compensating” on my end.

      1. Wade – Bye bye. Wont miss you. Don’t miss people that whine about getting great scientific information for free, fully researched by an educated professional for – did I mention – for free? Go complain elsewhere.
        Can’t stand people that lack the ability to be grateful for someone else’s long, deep, wide and consistent generosity (i.e. Dr. Greger).
        Adios Wade.
        Won’t be missing your complaining.

  2. I am thinking about fasting because I have read it stimulates stem cell repair I have a lot of body pain and am worried about cognitive decline.

    1. Autophagy is the body’s way of cleaning out damaged cells, in order to regenerate newer, healthier cells, according to Priya Khorana, PhD, in nutrition education from Columbia University. “Auto” means self and “phagy” means eat. So the literal meaning of autophagy is “self-eating.”

      1. Exercise puts your body in a state of autophagy as well and instead of nutrient depletion, you get stronger bones, lungs, a stronger heart, more lean body mass, etc.

        The optimal way to be, with the collective data (and with no negative side effects no less), appears to be the following:

        Eat early to wake the microbiome which helps regulate your internal clock. Stop eating by 7pm or 8pm if you can’t make it before 7. Allow that natural fasting period. Eat lots of whole plant foods which act as both preventative and curative medicine without our bodies. Drink enough water. Sleep well or do your best at it. Get good physical exercise including cardiovascular as well as resistance.

        As opposed to it all being one extreme… Starve the body! Flood the body with water! Stuff your face constantly with healthy stuff in a gluttonous manner! Sleep and rest all the time! Run ultra marathons all year long! Become a body builder!

    2. Jill, I’m 81 and I’m currently eating once a day. It’s like a 24 hour fast everyday. I’ve been vegan for about 8 years, and in that time I lost 70lbs. of FAT. Not over night, but a steady, easy melting away of fat, at the same time all my health issues melted away. Meds before cost over $3 thousand a month, today– ZERO.
      A lifetime of pain gone, just by changing what I ate. I thought it was a miracle, turns out it’s just good science. Pain FREE and I’ve never felt better in my life. To my great surprise, when I share my story with others, the response, all too many times is, “Great for you, but I could never quit meat”. Don’t do as I say,
      do as I do, and maybe all your pain will melt away (along with a lot of FAT). Be well.

      1. Oh wow!!! I admire your will power to eat only once a day. I do a sort of intermittend fat by only drinking coffee in the morning and no food. But leaving out lunch or dinner, it sounds so tempiing..how do you do it???

          1. Agree with Barb. The science shows that the early part of the day is perhaps the most important to eat. Your body metabolizes things better–so even if you ate a donut, eating it at 8am would be less harmful to your body than 8pm. And one of the most fascinating things about eating in the morning, is like light, feeding your microbiome sets your circadian rhythms and this is likely especially important in fall and winter when we don’t get that first burst of morning sun.

      2. Alvin CASTO,

        Congratulations!!

        I’ve been vegetarian for almost 50 years, but only starting eating whole plant foods — dropping the dairy and eggs — a few years ago. And I did lose more weight without trying, though I thought that I already was at a healthy weight. (The same thing happened with my husband.) I have no idea if the weight I lost was fat; I’m sure I have enough of that left. (Not in my face though, sadly.)

        But I might be in the camp of: I don’t think I could eat just one meal a day. I can’t eat much at one time any more (if I eat too much I am literally sick), so I guess I spread my food intake out through the day.

        But I say: Whatever works.

      3. Alvin,

        Very helpful information.

        May I ask you what inspired your fasting in the first place?

        My father was on 11 different medications as he grew older. One day he took me aside and showed me.

        It felt like Jacob Marley warning me of my future.

        Enter – lifestyle change.

        The results have been most efficacious.

        What was your Jacob Marley?

        Thank you,

        Vivamus

    3. Jill,

      I don’t think stem cell research has proven useful for cognitive decline.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27567851/

      But Dr Gregdr has some good videos on Alzheimers.

      I came here with serious brain problems and have been able to try quite a few things out like lowering saturated fats, increasing Omega 3’s, improving blood sugar. lowering homocysteine, lowering heavy metals and other toxins, particularly aluminum, increasing blood flow, circulation to the brain.

      Search by topic for Alzheimers.

      The Sharzai’s have a book on it and lots of YouTube videos based on their work with the Adventists.

  3. On a side note:

    “ Can we still trust the CDC and FDA (and other federal agencies, like the NIH, ostensibly dedicated to upholding policy based on good science)? Although the answer is still yes for most topics, for COVID-19 increasingly the answer is no. I fear that the list of topics on which the CDC and FDA can no longer be trusted will only grow if Donald Trump is reelected and that, even if he isn’t, some of the changes weakening the firewall between political appointees and the career scientific personnel of these agencies might be permanent and difficult for a President Biden to reverse. Let me explain…”
    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/can-we-trust-the-cdc-and-fda-any-more/

    I agree with the article’s conclusion, and I am deeply, deeply dismayed. And these are not the only two scientific federal agencies becoming partisan, hamstrung, or marginalized. I acutely fear for the future of this country.

    1. Dr J, I wouldn’t be so quick to blame our President Trump.

      A much wiser choice would be to place the blame on the entrenched combination of Big Pharma and lifelong career politicians of both parties. Trump is a newcomer to the Swamp!

      In fact, in the news today we have Trump signing an executive order to lower pharmaceutical drug prices for seniors! Medicare will now pay the same rate as any other country, whereas in the past, US citizens paid more!

      https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-lowering-drug-prices-putting-america-first-2/

      “Americans pay more per capita for prescription drugs than residents of any other developed country in the world. It is unacceptable that Americans pay more for the exact same drugs, often made in the exact same places. Other countries’ governments regulate drug prices by negotiating with drug manufacturers to secure bargain prices, leaving Americans to make up the difference — effectively subsidizing innovation and lower-cost drugs for the rest of the world. The Council of Economic Advisers has found that Americans finance much of the biopharmaceutical innovation that the world depends on, allowing foreign governments, many of which are the sole healthcare payers in their respective countries, to enjoy bargain prices for such innovations. Americans should not bear extra burdens to compensate for the shortfalls that result from the nationalized public healthcare systems of wealthy countries abroad.

      In most markets, the largest buyers pay the lowest prices, but this has not been true for prescription drugs. The Federal Government is the largest payer for prescription drugs in the world, but it pays more than many smaller buyers, including other developed nations. When the Federal Government purchases a drug covered by Medicare — the cost of which is shared by American seniors who take the drug and American taxpayers — it should insist on, at a minimum, the lowest price at which the manufacturer sells that drug to any other developed nation.”

      1. Darwin Galt,

        I totally blame Trump.

        Here’s the latest example: “ Michael Caputo, the assistant secretary of health for public affairs, told a Facebook audience without evidence that left-wing hit squads were being trained for insurrection, and he accused C.D.C. scientists of “sedition.””. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/14/us/caputo-virus.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

        I don’t see how this can be described as anything but batshit crazy, the ravings of a lunatic.

        And neither the FDA nor the CDC have anything to do with setting drug prices, as far as I know. That is the result of the “free market,” which last I checked, many individuals heartily support. Drug prices are lower in other countries because those governments regulate the prices of drugs. This country generally doesn’t.

        1. Dr J, I’ve noticed that what news source one believes in usually determines what they believe regarding politics. That NYT article is one of the most biased articles I’ve read in a long time. It’s articles like those and many others that have been proven to be incorrect, that have led me to not trust any article from the NYT. I now get my news from many trustworthy websites that have a proven track record of being correct. I’ll share my list with you, if you would like.

          The situation is similar to this NutritionFacts website and mainstream Health Magazines. I trust Dr Greger much more than any of those Health Magazines even though the far majority of people read them as opposed to NF.org.

          And regarding your Presidential candidate, what has he done in his 40+ years as a career politician. What accomplishment can he point to and say, “This is what I accomplished.”? I haven’t seen a single one. And in the last 40 years, why didn’t he do all the campaign promises he claims he will do now?

          1. Darwin, I agree that the NYT has biased articles to say the least. I applaud you for responding to a politically charged post, though I regret seeing politics (unless it concerns health and nutrition) creeping into this forum which I’ve followed for over 9 years. I found your first post humorous as I’m sure it was intended. Thank you for your many contributions to this forum, you’ve educated me and others.
            ‘ve

          2. Darwin Galt – you clearly don’t understand how a democracy works. Running on a platform does not mean that you get to be dictator and enact your own personal agenda – you work with others on ideas to move the country forward. You clearly don’t understand that concept.

            What’s wrong with you?

            1. E.G.,

              Donald Trump stated what he stood for and what he planned to do when he was campaigning in 2016.

              The majority of citizens approved of what he planned to do, so they voted for him and he won the election.

              Once elected, he tried to do what he promised.

              Isn’t that how a democracy works?

              He made America great again despite the Mob trying to thwart his every move.

              (The Mob = the losing party, the media, the career politicians, the Globalists, International Corporations, Social Media, and un-elected Gov’t political appointees from previous administrations.) … I might have left a few out here ;-)

                1. Viv, that’s an old argument.

                  The framers of the US Constitution were wise enough to realize that Mob rule would be disastrous, so they put in safe-guards against it.

                  It’s called the Electoral College. Please see the Constitution for details.

                  1. You wrote: “Isn’t that how a democracy works?”

                    The United States is not a democracy. It’s a republic.

                    You wrote: “The majority of citizens approved of what he planned to do, so they voted for him and he won the election.”

                    The majority of US citizens did not vote for Trump.

                    The electoral college went for Trump.

                    Your writing is imprecise – and incorrect.

                    You wrote: “It’s called the Electoral College. Please see the Constitution for details.”

                    I know both well, thank you.

                    You can’t cover up your errors with bluster.

                    Not impressed –

                    Vivamus

          3. “I’ve noticed that what news source one believes in usually determines what they believe regarding politics.”

            Fact checks are what’s important. The source you look to should be able to be checked for reporting the facts, if they pass or fail should be what determines we continue to look to that source for actual information. Unfortunately, that is not who it goes so very much of the time with people. It’s no different for any information. Most of us here already know how to look for true scientific data and what the red flags are including who funds a study, etc. etc. That same rule applies news sources or any source reporting any kind of information.

        2. “Darwin Galt is a whacko in his own right.”

          Me and Darwin don’t always see eye to eye, so often he’s wrong where I’m right and sometimes he is also right when I’m right lol. So when I say this, it’s not because the two of us are best friends… resorting to calling someone a whacko due to an otherwise civil disagreement is usually a sign of desperation but definitely a sign of intolerance.

        3. Dr J you are right, hes a batshit crazy lunatic, but again not his to blame.. he is a symptom. Just look further back than 2016 you will find plenty of todays groundwork being laid out by others, Really. (doesnt make him a good guy I know, but its just not the case that he invented our problems here, or corruption, or racism or cronyism, or immoral acts etc…)

    2. “Can we still trust the CDC and FDA (and other federal agencies, like the NIH, ostensibly dedicated to upholding policy based on good science)?”

      The answer, of course, is “No.”

      No two ways about it.

      Next question?

      However, the WHO, CDC, FDA, NIH and the US Surgeon General have not proven to be entirely useless.

      We do continue to listen to what they have to say.

      And then we do the opposite.

      That actually works out pretty well.

      ——————————————

      In the past I have had the highest respect for all of these organizations.

      The release of the first report of the Surgeon General’s Advisory Committee on Smoking and Health by Luther L. Terry, M.D., Surgeon General of the U.S. Public Health Service – January 11, 1964 – has set in play events which have since saved countless lives.

      The WHO has been deeply involved in a plethora of international health issues.

      THE CDC is the “who ya gonna call” guys when it comes to emerging diseases. MMR helps keep one’s eyes on the ball. Medical guidance when looking into foreign travel.

      The FDA has led the fight against all sorts of quackery.

      NIH – that’s where all the grant money comes from.

      All highly respected organizations – all helpful.

      Until now.

      ——————————————

      Our crew has been ignoring all information about the Novel Coronavirus from these organizations since January.

      We have instead been keeping an eye on the wisdom of Vietnam, Hong Kong, Taiwan and New Zealand – and watching the experiences of China, Italy, England et.al.

      From memory:

      When the WHO was spreading information that the Novel Coronavirus was spread only from animals and did not undergo human-to-human transmission – we were skeptical.

      When the WHO stated in the February timeline that international travel should not be curtailed – our crew had already curtailed all travel.

      When the WHO was in denial about aerosol spread – we already knew it was significant and were proceeding accordingly.

      When Fauci was reassuring the U.S. that there was little reason for concern – we were already buying up respirators, masks, hand sanitizer and medications – with enough for relatives and friends for when, we knew, they later would want them.

      When the Surgeon General of the United States of America was telling the population not to wear masks – we were already wearing respirators.

      When the CDC was telling the population of the United States of America to wear cloth masks – we were continuing to wear respirators.

      When the states have been opening up restaurants, schools, etc. – we have continued to largely shelter in place.

      While Fauci assures the public of his “cautious optimism” about vaccinations – we view the future realistically.

      Sure – we will have a Coronavirus vaccine soon. You can bet your bottom dollar on it.

      But it will be neither safe nor effective.

      I tell ya – just filter whatever these organizations are saying – and do the opposite.

      Or whatever – in your judgement – is best.

      It has been sad to witness – but their glory days are now over.

      Be careful.

      It’s a forest out there –

      Vivamus

      1. Viv, well you wrote:
        The release of the first report of the Surgeon General’s Advisory Committee on Smoking and Health by Luther L. Terry, M.D., Surgeon General of the U.S. Public Health Service – January 11, 1964 – has set in play events which have since saved countless lives.

        I keep harping I know but when we cherry pick out of history we fail in some ways. You are aware that smoking was known to cause cancer for decades before this report yes? I know you are, so its why it gets me when accolades are placed on the institutions that kick and scream in back offices all the way to the formal admission, only to be called heroes. (asbestos, lead, teflon, round up, so many many many….)

        So it appears that now the Redskins football team will change its name. Does one cheer the owner for this? Some would , I just cant go there.

        Its not that I don’t believe in redemption, its more a case when I feel things are changed out of PR triage more than any real humanity.

    3. Dr. J.,
      Politics and science are horses of different colors. I notice that Dr. Fauci tells it like it is and politicans tell people what they want to hear. I’m not being party specific here.

        1. Dr Fauci was the voice speaking at the beginning almost every day.

          Until the pressure to open the country started crying out.

          That is when things changed.

          When the Stanford guy started saying the numbers weren’t adding up.

          Until then, I was watching the Press conferences and Fauci was the one featured almost every one. Bird next.

          1. Deb that’s true, but being first doesn’t mean anything really… Powell was a first liar to the UN etc…Fauci was also one of the first who did in fact downplay mask usage, and seriously one can easily extract a correlation about his loyalties given 4 decades in the belly of the giant. You’ve just said you understand how politics works. He is a card holding member my dear, you know that. Make the connection in spite of potential discomfort. He is also quite rich, and has assets including pharma and vaccine manufacturing. These are not smoking guns, but certainly trails to follow if one cares for the truth.

    4. Dr J, unfortunately most of what you say is true.

      RE CDC trust, Ive spoken here on that topic. It goes along with the idea that if a known pedophile, for instance, or known felon, applies for a job the issue is that one feels they cant trust them for other, though unrelated, responsibilities.

      Its impossible – or at least very very difficult, mentally to get around, and to trust in a “separate” area” once trust has been betrayed in another. Its a mark that travels with the person. We are a zero tolerance society anyway, though this doesn’t explain election cycle willful blindness of support for super rich white or black politicians, thinking either will somehow do something differently – when its been shown they don’t.

      Re Trump/Biden, the thing is one can reasonably argue Trump is worse, but again, see above. Vote for less evil?

      Biden has been shown to: lie, plagiarize, use power for personal gain, be the subject of reasonable accusations of sexual misconduct, authored racist crime bills, reject medicare for all, vote for opening up our country’s underground for drilling and fracking, vote for the Iraq war, and the list goes on and on.

      One can feel better for voting for this guy, but the truth is that we got the evil we know as Trump because of decades of systemic degradation – and for giving a blind pass to guys like Joe et al….

      Trump is a symptom, not the cause. He is the pain in our bodies, not the years of eating bacon.

      That’s why your new understanding that the CDC is compromised (and therefore likely others) is refreshing.

      This election cycle, this time around, simply is what it is. Trump or Biden.

      But please know that our broken binary choice system (the one Trump didn’t create, but took advantage of) needs to change, and it is only going to happen if we finally get off this bus. This may be our last chance to create a true, viable, equal footing third party which can withstand the actual affronts (look into it) which are put against third parties by the comfortable Reds/Blues.

      It is their neighborhood, Reds/Bluesville. They BBQ together and their kids go to the same schools. (gee thanks campaign finance laws)

      But….Its time for a new neighbor to move in and most of us wont like their color.

      Here is a Princeton study on whats really happening re:the power of our votes:
      https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B/S1537592714001595a.pdf/testing_theories_of_american_politics_elites_interest_groups_and_average_citizens.pdf

      For more information on our economic realities check out Allen Tooze https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Tooze,
      and Mark Blyth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Blyth

      People, the 2020’s is going to be a very very bumpy ride. Things will change. Wealth/power will converge, all types of catastrophes will be leveraged, and the environment could collapse under this weight.

      Unless we act to create a viable alternative which can keep things in check, and allow prosperity for more than just some.

      How many here will say this is over reacting, or think I’m a Trump supporter because I unveil Bidens truths?
      I’m sure so many here will point at me saying I’m a conspiracy theorist, etc…

      Well, I am not. But its fine, go ahead Ive said my peace.

      To those on civil autopilot, I suggest you take what you know from all your research about the body and how it needs to be looked at holistically and apply it to the paradigms unfolding before us in life, and go ahead and do the same amount of research you do on medical conditions etc. You will find you’ve been largely just absorbing either left or right propaganda. You may not want to alter your station in life and the comfort it provides.

      Some here will offer platitudes, or perhaps some glib, “there, there’s”, in an unfounded sense of superiority. They would be the worst offenders of sponge politics, soaking up the spills of corporate media.

      I wont offer a quote from a forgotten language, but rather say that I am hopeful that we can overcome our compartmentalization in favor of seeing things for what they are, and working on them like we do our health.

      1. One can reasonably argue Trump has proven to be an amazing president who does what he says and Biden is a puppet at his best.

        I hope we are a zero tolerance society when it comes to pedophelia, jazzBass… unfortunately, that is NOT the case.

        Just like race has nothing to do with content of character (politician or otherwise), neither does class. For that matter, neither does someone’s favorite color… although maybe that sheds so psychological insight.

        Just browsing, not reading all your comment or whatever conversation its coming from, but had to comment on what I saw.

        1. S, Very well spoken. I’m from the generation of Martin L. King … character has nothing to do with race, color, or class.

          In fact, when one thinks about it, none of those three terms has a scientific basis to my knowledge. I have never seen a scientific definition of any of them. I suspect they are creations of politicians for political purposes. Perhaps to keep all of us peasants fighting with each other, while the elite sit back in their mansions and watch!

          1. Martin Luther King Jr is someone who still inspires.

            There have been a handful or two of leaders like that.

            He is one of the ones who shaped who I am and what I believe.

            As a citizen and even as a Christian.

          2. Thank you, Darwin. Fully agree with the teachings of Martin L. King Jr… wish he were here now.

            “Perhaps to keep all of us peasants fighting with each other, while the elite sit back in their mansions and watch!”

            Disturbingly, I think that is more true now than perhaps ever.

        2. “One can reasonably argue Trump has proven to be an amazing president who does what he says and Biden is a puppet at his best. ”

          S, next time read the post. The “color” I spoke of, was an alternative to Blue and Red. (a party color)

          Yes Biden is a puppet, but Trump is only amazing in his childishness, callous self protectionism and selfishness.

          Darwin your veiled racism shown through on that one bud., OR your lack of reading comprehension. Either way, gotta tighten up brother, pay attention man, this is what I’m talking about. People getting triggered on simplistic ideals instead of getting to understanding whats really happening in front of them….

          1. jazzBass, Regarding your comment: “Darwin your veiled racism shown through on that one bud., OR your lack of reading comprehension.”

            Let’s keep to the science, Jazz, even if it contrary to one’s current thinking.

            For an excellent reference, please see the below article from National Geographic and read the excerpt therefrom below:

            https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/

            Excerpt:
            “Researchers who have since looked at people at the genetic level now say that the whole category of race is misconceived. Indeed, when scientists set out to assemble the first complete human genome, which was a composite of several individuals, they deliberately gathered samples from people who self-identified as members of different races. In June 2000, when the results were announced at a White House ceremony, Craig Venter, a pioneer of DNA sequencing, observed, “The concept of race has no genetic or scientific basis.”

            Over the past few decades, genetic research has revealed two deep truths about people. The first is that all humans are closely related—more closely related than all chimps, even though there are many more humans around today. Everyone has the same collection of genes, but with the exception of identical twins, everyone has slightly different versions of some of them. Studies of this genetic diversity have allowed scientists to reconstruct a kind of family tree of human populations. That has revealed the second deep truth: In a very real sense, all people alive today are Africans.

            Our species, Homo sapiens, evolved in Africa—no one is sure of the exact time or place. The most recent fossil find, from Morocco, suggests that anatomically modern human features began appearing as long as 300,000 years ago. For the next 200,000 years or so, we remained in Africa, but already during that period, groups began to move to different parts of the continent and become isolated from one another—in effect founding new populations.”

            1. Sure thing Darwin, but as I said, I was referring to party colors, not race at all. Your mention of it shows something. There is science to show that as well.

          2. jassBass, I actually think Trump is amazing in the fact that he’s 100% honest, he saved the American economy, he dealt with China and we finally started being protected from sometimes dangerous antics such as them being allowed to sell us poisoned baby toys, pet food, human food with essentially no repercussions, stopping us and the world from being nuked, avoiding war over stupid things that many on both sides wanted to start a war over, cleaning up the great lakes, making extreme animal cruelty a federal crime where no president thus far has passed that bill, etc. etc… It sounds more like you care more about what YOU consider a childish personality rather than his actions.

            The fact that you called Darwin a racist, 1000% DISCREDITS YOU. That’s disgusting, shame on you, what a joke. And that is EXACTLY the type of thing the rabid extreme leftists do ALL the time now… Meanwhile, real racism is going on from the left… If you’re black, you aren’t allowed to support Trump or even just not hate him or have an opinion of your own. When Hilary was running, if you were a woman, you weren’t allowed to have your own opinion too, you were only allowed to vote woman, contents of character aside. A man who was a BLM supporter and Trump supporter was shot down and killed, I don’t know if they followed up with that story and found out who did it, but it wasn’t reported on CNN or anywhere like that because while he was a black man who was murdered in cold blood, he wasn’t exactly what he was supposed to be BECAUSE he was a black man. And that’s just one example.

            Want to talk about racism? Let’s talk about extreme leftism.

            1. I’m hearing you about extreme leftists, whats that by the way? I’m not extreme at all. You do seem extreme to me now though.

              I may have mentioned that foreign policy is as important or more important than domestic policy, because well we live in a world, but, I can tell you that I didn’t mention race at all in my original post.

              I said veiled racism. SO yes I think its quite possible that you guys are racist but, “s”, that is because both you and he mentioned race when I did not mention it at all. I was shocked really. What does that have to do with what I was saying? The colors I mentioned were red and blue. Party colors.

              Maybe you are unfamiliar with that representation of the two parties we have in this country, but for your reference, republicans are knows as red, and democrats are known as blue.

              When I say we need another color for a third party, in this context, and both you and Darwin mention Race, then its clear to me (and everyone else here) that there is a racial trigger in your emotional responses.

              Now…Why bother to defend Trump as an unarguable figure of a great president when there are so many reasons one can point to to state otherwise. Like I said, Biden is right there too, so again you are just off the mark, but just for you I will explore Trumps greatness as taken from your your mind.

              Now before I continue, you gotta read the original post. Just so you know, and I reiterate, I know that BOTH Trump and Biden will screw us all so I am not rooting for either party.

              Now:
              Im glad you think Trump saved the American economy. Its funny that right now, roughly 40% of Americans could not get together $400 in case of an emergency. Wait, we are in an emergency right now so they are all fucked and now are going to be evicted at ridiculous rates. (its a thing, look it up)

              The economy is so wonderful that we have mass protests going on, today. Happy wage earners dont get off their asses to protest in this country, at least not on a regular basis. So there’s that.

              Hey “S”, here is some information regarding how fucked we are in unemployment: https://phys.org/news/2020-09-unemployment-capture-covid-full-impact.html

              You feel Trump is good for the environment because he “saved” the great lakes? So his decision to continue the Obama funding to save the great lakes was an about face after trying unsuccessfully to take it away in congress for quite a while. So, you’ve been told by Fox news about his happy speech saying he thought the great lakes have been saved but they forgot to mention the recent history. Its ok, now you know and I am sure you will explore the facts rather than spew BS.

              Animal Cruelty? So the states already had these laws, but its nice to add his name on a federal level. Now, is animal abuse cruelty law extended to the millions of factory food mistreated animals living in shit and sliced open, or culled and thrown into living garbage pits to suffocate and starve, with no concern for them? Hmm, well thought out I see. Its just about pets. How about the thousands of wildlife running for their lives and being shot, or the ones dying from man-made chemical waste spillage, or the near extinct fish

              Now, one interesting thing about his environmental decisions, we do see that we now have firefighting helicopters deployed in Afghanistan unable to now put out our historic forest fires, which are the worst in history and happened just after the hottest temperatures in history. Hmm, I wonder why this is?

              So if you are here in the name of science being the best way to understand your health, then you may want to read up on science proving global heating. Now the thing is “s”, Trump denies this fact. And listen you just cant be selective with science… Like for instance, go drink a smoothie but make sure to put some teflon shavings in there? See what I mean? (not a good idea)

              But for your info dear “s” heres a list of a few Trump environmental fuckeries right here in the good old great states (mind you Obama and Biden opened arctic drilling and national fracking all over the country so they suck too):
              Air
              -U.S. pulls out of Paris Climate Agreement
              -Trump EPA poised to scrap clean power plan
              -Trump EPA loosens regulations on toxic air pollution
              -Rescinding methane-flaring rules
              -Trump announces plan to weaken Obama-era fuel economy rules
              Water
              -Trump revokes flood standards accounting for sea-level rise
              -Waters of the U.S. Rule revocation
              Wildlife
              -NOAA green lights seismic airgun blasts for oil and gas drilling
              -Interior Department relaxes sage grouse protection
              -Trump officials propose changes to handling the Endangered Species Act
              -Migratory Bird Treaty Act reinterpretation
              OPENING PUBLIC LANDS FOR SALE TO CORPORATE INTERESTS
              -Trump unveils plan to dramatically downsize two national monuments
              -Executive order calls for sharp logging increase on public lands
              SECURITY AND ENFORCEMENT
              -Trump drops climate change from list of national security threats
              -EPA criminal enforcement hits 30-year low

              So on foreign policy Trump has allowed Yemini war to cause a holocaust there through a proxy agreement with the Saudis, after selling them trillions in weapons for profit and to the detriment of millions of human lives. Well Done S! Yay, famin for millions! Woot!…Lets completely and further disable the middle east with our greatness.

              Hey China trade? Our farmers have seen tremendous cuts in orders as a direct result of Trumps tarrifs awesomeness! High-five “S”!

              So Trumps childish personality shows every day on social media and elsewhere:
              https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-language-level-speaking-skills-age-eight-year-old-vocabulary-analysis-a8149926.html.

              Oh and here is a childish quote from his greatness in reference to your assertion that he is saving the world from things like nuclear destruction:
              “I would bomb the shit out of them. I would just bomb those suckers. That’s right, I’d blow up the pipes, I’d blow up the refin – I’d blow up every single inch. There’d be nothing left. And you know what, you’ll get Exxon to come in there and in two months, you ever see these guys, the great oil companies…”

              So you asked: “Want to talk about racism? Let’s talk about extreme leftism.”
              I’m not sure what you mean there….

              What is your definition of “leftism”? I’m curious….(not really)

              But to answer your question, no I don’t want to talk about racism, since I’d never get through to your closed mind, and again, I didn’t mention it in my original post.

          3. oh and jazzBass,

            I was joking about the favorite color thing, had nothing to do with anything you said. Was just pointing out how stupid it is to think things that have nothing to do with character e.g. race, class, gender, sexuality have anything to do with how good a president or doctor or general person is or would be.

      2. jazzBass,

        Yes, I totally agree.

        I felt the same way about Trump versus Clinton. I knew too much and I found it hard to believe that those were going to be my choices.

        I am pretty neutral politically and can appreciate that my taxes didn’t go up and that my business didn’t go out of business and that out of control issues such as immigration do need to be dealt with and that we do need Black Lives Matter balanced by Blue Lives Matter, too.

        There was an American Ninja who wore a Black Lives Matters shirt and a Blue handkerchief and I smiled because that format allowed him to care about both. He is a black man who is involved with police. I can’t remember what his job was but it didn’t say, “officer” but it was linked.

        We have polarized so much that we end up with the most ridiculous elections and they last year in and year out and we can’t have real conversations.

      3. jazzBass,

        Form the url you posted:

        “Despite the seemingly strong empirical support in
        previous studies for theories of majoritarian democracy,
        American public actually have little influence over the policies our
        government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features
        central to democratic governance, such as regular elec-
        tions, freedom of speech and association, and a wide-
        spread (if still contested) franchise. But we believe that if
        policymaking is dominated by powerful business organ-
        izations and a small number of affluent Americans, then
        America’s claims to being a democratic society are seriously
        threatened.”

        Yup.

        —————————————

        “This may be our last chance to create a true, viable, equal footing third party which can withstand the actual affronts (look into it) which are put against third parties by the comfortable Reds/Blues. ”

        I’ve tried the third party presidential route on a number of occasions.

        Unfortunately – looking out at the wreckage afterwards – none came anywhere close to winning – the unfortunate cold hard reality was that none ever served any role except that of spoiler for one or the other of the candidates.

        All the good intentions and the “principle of the thing” and “sending a message” in the world could not change that reality.

        So – a number of us decided that if we could not do anything effective on a national level – we could focus on the local level, instead – and we helped elect: one Mayor, one Sheriff, three City Alderman, one School Board Member. That was kinda gratifying.

        We initially encouraged them to go out canvassing – door-to-door – listen to the people! These were not media campaigns.

        Major constituent concern from knockin’ on thousands of doors?

        Healthcare. Neighborhoods.

        But you cannot do much of anything about healthcare on a local level. That is state and national and corporate.

        Local is roads and schools and such.

        We did get one minority person on the City Council. Head Start teacher, displacing the expected retired corporate attorney shoo-in.

        Had to go recruitin’ to a minority community center to find him and and coachin’ to help him with his speechifyin’.

        But we did it!

        That all worked out pretty well. His people finally had a voice.

        Brought a tear to the eye . . .

        —————————-

        This time around – no national third party candidate looks viable on a national level.

        Not as anything except a spoiler, anyway.

        Been there. Done that.

        I just checked for our local sample ballot to see about the also-rans – is Harold Stassen still running? – but they are not yet available.

        Lotsa excellent environmental orientation on the state representative level vs. the usual corporate drones – that is a good break from the past – a choice, anyway. Dunno who will win.

        It’s a horse race, where these horses will be carried along by those at the top of the ticket.

        One does as one can.

        We’ll see what happens come November.

        Regards –

        Vivamus

        1. Vivamus,

          Yes, third parties generally tip the scales for either of the two main parties.

          I just have to believe that the old guard will be out of politics eventually and that there will be people who care about things that I care about.

          As a small business person, in the lower half of the economic end of society, I have benefited highly from Trump.

          As a person who hates the division caused by so many of the things he has said, and who hates that he just seems to speak wildly and hurts causes I care about, it continues to be painful.

          I watched him at the beginning of this pandemic and I will say that until the economy really started hurting, he let Fauci speak every single day and just applauded him. He was slow at the beginning but so was the WHO.

          He has said so many things that I hate and then surprised me at other moments.

          I guess the fact that I never liked Biden historically but have liked his commercials and wish the people who write the inspiring commercials were running.

          I am just too emotionally sensitive to follow politics. I much prefer to be outside of politics with the people figuring out solutions.

          WFPB is solutions without a political agenda and I don’t mean that to shut down people from their political processing.

          I just can’t point to very many solutions that came from the top down.

          Looking at the history of politics in the country, it was corrupt before we even had a president and George Washington was horrified already by politics.

          1. If only there was a solutions-generating system.as where our politicians came out of.

            And maybe it could be a team of solution-people running against each other for the best solutions.

              1. Then, they could get to implement for a few years and if people hated it they could be voted out a different solutions-deiven team could be voted in.

                1. So, in my way, each team would have what they would do about low income housing and what they would do about the economy and education and the environment, etc.

                  1. Debs,

                    Some things I learned by getting directly involved in politics – at the candidate recruitment and guidance level.

                    Our group was a competent team of gentlemen. Of course – all of us refused to run, ourselves.

                    When we tried to recruit good people – we usually failed. They already had a life, thank you.

                    The candidates were referred to us – largely by connections / word of mouth.

                    They WANTED to run!

                    They had the DRIVE!

                    They were of a different breed than us. Self promoting. A kind of self-centeredness. A kind of arrogance. At times, a lack of awareness of others.

                    Superficially outgoing.

                    I have not kept up with any of them, socially.

                    I occasionally speak to members of our little group about the whole adventure.

                    Largely they didn’t personally like the people whom we helped.

                    “Egomaniacs.”

                    But none of the sort of people whom we did like had any interest in running for office.

                    This may be the essential insolvable problem of elective politics.

                    Deb.

                    (Tongue in cheek) Vote early and vote often –

                    Vivamus

                    Vote early and vote often
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_early_and_vote_often

                  2. The more I think about it, the more I like it.

                    If I were forming the system, I would have the masses vote for what issues they wanted solutions for and have the elections be a year of teams coming up with solutions and then the public, would vote in the team’s and that would be my house of representatives. The senate would be the one who still made sure we weren’t doing something we would regret but I would have them be teams, too.

                    1. ‘This may be the essential insolvable problem of elective politics.’

                      The Athenians believed sortition to be democratic but not elections[5] and used complex procedures with purpose-built allotment machines (kleroteria) to avoid the corrupt practices used by oligarchs to buy their way into office. According to the author Mogens Herman Hansen the citizen’s court was superior to the assembly because the allotted members swore an oath which ordinary citizens in the assembly did not and therefore the court could annul the decisions of the assembly. Both Aristotle[5] and Herodotus (one of the earliest writers on democracy) emphasize selection by lot as a test of democracy, “The rule of the people has the fairest name of all, equality (isonomia), and does none of the things that a monarch does. The lot determines offices, power is held accountable, and deliberation is conducted in public.”[9]’

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

                    2. Mr Fumblefingers,

                      “sortition”

                      “kleroteria”

                      Fascinatin’!

                      I had no idea.

                      I shall read up.

                      Good night,

                      Vivamus

              2. Deb we have to forego this Teams mentality if we are to get ahead. Life is not a football game. Teams are in competition to TAKE the title, WIN etc… it is what gets the binary, “choose a side” mentality.

        2. Viv, true in all you said. Ive shared here a video of none other than Bernie discussing his unknown future (current) self in ’91. He talks about why its not a wasted vote to go third party. (Later his balls shriveled and he told Chris Hedges he would not go down and be attacked like Ralph Nader, who is brilliant by the way)

          That said, this time around it is sure to be ineffective to even think of third party vote, however I can assure you that whom ever you vote for that vote too is ineffective, as also discussed in the paper. This is mostly because we haven’t spent 4 years getting it together. I know that dems spend millions to squash progressive efforts to cater to donor class. Repubs are largely on the same cue, so there is less splintering in their well oiled sickness.

          So I am thinking, rather than to propose an idea (third party) which most cannot wrap their heads around mainly because they cannot envision, in a moment of real honesty, us getting out of the binary quagmire we know exists, but choose to forget when it comes time to vote for …less shitty.

          To propose initially then, (2024?) that we start with complete overhaul of the biggest influencer of our US elections and we can do this while still sitting in the stench of the current binary system.

          Do we have the balls as a country?

          Campaign Finance laws are the absolute biggest influencer to our elections.

          If we get big money out, and all parties have equal funds, then that will deal initially with the problem of corporate parties.

          THEN we will have opportunity to have a viable third or fourth party. Only then.

          Otherwise, as you say its disheartening, and well, impossible.

          1. Don “jazzBass” Quixote,

            Understood.

            Our quest is clear.

            All we gotta do now is get the powers to be to vote to change things in a way that they will decrease their own power.

            Yup.

            No problemo.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHVGOp5Usv4

            ——————————————————-

            If you wanna stop moaning and actually do something constructive – that was our challenge to ourselves back in 2008 – and get involved in politics in a way that you can actually have some genuine effect – I suggest that you largely forget national politics (“democracy theatre”) and consider involvement in local politics.

            Local politics needs warm bodies.

            We were it. Even encouraged to run! Probably woulda won. (No thank you).

            When our guys won, they wanted me on the Library Board. Looked like a perfect fit. Just think of it –

            All those forgotten languages . . .

            So I went and talked with the Library Directrix and the Chairman of the Board –

            And realized that they wanted me to replace the Chairman. Who was a good guy – he loved what he was doing, knew where all the bodies were buried, and was obviously doing an excellent job. He did not know that his job was mine.

            Library comes first. Gotta do what’s right. I turned it down.

            And I just didn’t wanna be Coroner. I know, I know – call me sentimental – but I just kinda prefer keepin’ people alive.

            So I drifted back behind the curtain. And considered my next task.

            No Hispanics on the City Council. But we have lotsa Hispanics in the city – 40% of the kids in public schools.

            Kids without a voice. No one watchin’ out for their best interests. No example in City Council of whom to become.

            Just keepin’ a low profile – stayin’ out of trouble.

            My work was clear.

            Recruit and back an Hispanic and get him on City Council. Then – step back and watch him fly.

            That was more complicated than I had imagined. Learned a lot.

            A lot more complicated.

            —————————————–

            You mentioned Bernie.

            A girl and I explored Burlington, VT. If I was considering voting for him – I wanted to know what I would be getting. I figured we would learn what legacy the terrifying Socialist / Progressive / Independent Mayor Bernie Sanders had left behind. I thought we would pick our way amongt the rubble – fallen temples – broken sculpture – looted shops – broken bodies – ragged urchins grasping at our clothing – too weak to hold on – and we found –

            A very pleasant college town – filled with vitality.

            No one looked terribly oppressed to us.

            Actually, it was kinda – well, fun.

            So much for the terrors of Socialism.

            Attended a rally here circa 2016 (different girl – it is good to have different perspectives).

            I actually liked Bernie.

            He could pack ’em in where Hillary Clinton just left people cold.

            But Clinton stole the convention – and we have what we have today.

            O tempora, o mores!

            —————————-

            Nader.

            I told you I have voted third party, here and there.

            Life is interesting.

            —————————-

            All for now.

            Good night –

            Vivamus

            —————————

            . . .A ragged urchin, aimless and alone,
            Loitered about that vacancy; a bird
            Flew up to safety from his well-aimed stone:
            That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
            Were axioms to him, who’d never heard
            Of any world where promises were kept,
            Or one could weep because another wept . . .

            Auden
            from The Shield of Achilles
            1956

            1. The “Viv” has no clothes:

              Quixote has been known for confusing people who thought they knew it was a comic tragedy.

              Anyway, Local politics is smothered by money and superpacs and has zero influence other than to be chosen for grooming for the majors, and specific training on how to carry water for the corporations.

              I may sound like I’m moaning but that’s coming from the potential disturbance to your late stage comfort. Glad you toured the knolls of the northeast. they are beautiful.

              Bernie says third party vote is NOT wasted, but again he later caved to the donor class.

        3. “Unfortunately – looking out at the wreckage afterwards – none came anywhere close to winning – the unfortunate cold hard reality was that none ever served any role except that of spoiler for one or the other of the candidates.”

          You seem to say you’ve decided not to go there again because of a few failed tries. Not sure though..

          This is a design, not an organic result. Pragmatism doesn’t then point to falling in line with the institutions. Rather it points to holding ground, and not gifting such a precious thing as a vote, against ones own conscience.

          You cannot “spoil” that which is already wretched.

    5. Dr. J,

      Way to bring up politics on a nonpolitical website…

      Let it be known you’re the one who brought it up. President Trump has been nothing but forthright and honest about corona and about all his actions and decisions. The left party has become a joke. They are run by whining children willing to lie RELENTLESSLY for their own agenda. There is no such thing as a democratic party anymore, it’s extreme leftism, and that is why democrats have resorted to leaving the party. I hope to get the democratic party back one day, but as long as people continue to get their information form PROPAGANDA without fact checking and paying attention to what is NOT being reported and willing to see the beyond evident bias in leftwing media which is almost all media now including google itself, we will never see the democratic party again. I fear for this country for very real reasons, if Trump is not reelected. Let’s see, reasons of the very foundation of the country we stand on: freedom. Reasons of being protected from violent anarchists. Those are maybe the top two.

      Vegan, animal rights activist, Independent.

    1. I agree, it’s now feeling like a waste of time to watch his videos. I used to donate to him until all these useless videos began popping up. I just want info, not some kind of lead on.

      1. Lumes – Byebye – we won’t miss you. Complaining about free, legitimate, science-fact information is the mark of a small, self-centered, whiny person.
        Adios amigo. We won’t miss you.

      2. Lumes,

        “I’m always conflicted about writing these kinds of blogs and producing videos like Can Vitamin C Help with Lead Poisoning?. I can imagine some just want “the answer,” but those with vested and commercial interests often exploit that natural impulse. This is problem with science in general, but perhaps particularly in nutrition. When it comes to something as life-or-death important as what to feed ourselves and our families we shouldn’t just follow someone’s opinions or beliefs on the matter. We should demand to see the science. That’s what I try to do: Present the available data as fairly and even-handedly as possible, and let you make up your own mind. You can imagine how easily someone could cherry-pick just one or two studies and present a distorted but compelling case for or against, in this case, vitamin C supplements. That’s why I feel it’s important to present each study in their historical context.” https://nutritionfacts.org/2020/09/15/can-vitamin-c-supplements-help-with-lead-poisoning/

        So I guess you are one who “just wants ‘the answer.’” I like Dr. Greger’s response to this desire. And as a former research scientist, I completely agree with his approach.

    2. @Columbo
      re: the doctor’s quote, “we’ll explore that next” that’s too funny (I’ve always been a huge fan of the show) (Lieutenant) Columbo, and it’s most applicable for the show’s “just one more thing…”

      We now may enjoy the suspense of a good nutritional, mystery movie of the week. Only I need remember to tune in to part 2. Thanks for making me laugh.

    3. He seems to now think seeing him is more important than providing the information apparently. I get that he is seeking fame, but this ‘tune in again next week’ stuff has made the search USELESS as you now get all of these ‘lead-up’ vids that just waste time.

      1. Do you have to be so relentlessly unpleasant about information freely given to you?

        Constructive criticism is one thing but these constant personal insults and whingeing are as distasteful.as they are tedious.

        1. Fumblefingers – I echo your comments to REality Bites. S/he should just go whine to some other site that maybe gives a rats ass. Whining about science-backed, well-researched information GIVEN AWAY for the good of his/her health strikes me as a person who is a frigging spoiled brat. Reality Bites – go away. No one will miss your constant complaining. Better yet – why don’t YOU start a site that does better since you think that this site is such a miserable excuse of good information. Go for a short walk off along pier – no one will come looking for you.

          1. Yes, it’s a shame because a number of RB’s other comments are sensible and helpful. It’s the constant personal attacks and denigration of Dr G’s motives and presentation style that stick in my craw. They are uncalled for and seem delivberately worded to cause offence.

            1. RBI is serious about WFpB and most of his comments have been an improvement from where he was a few years ago.

              Much fewer comments calling Dr Gregef a so-called doctor, way more salient comments and not just being frustrated about people going off-topic

              He doesn’t trust that Dr Greger is hearing the feedback yet but I am going to stand up for him because I think he has worked hard at being better and I don’t need him to be perfect.

              1. OK but it still seems just plain rude to continually visit someone’s website and post insulting comments about the host.

                Perhaps it’s a compulsion of some sorts? I think I speculated before that s/he might suffer from frequent bouts of haemorrhoid pain. That was a joke but it is hard to understand why RB is so sour so often.

                1. Tom,

                  There is a mystery there because RB does come here but many people get sour over the videos and I will say that the fact that Dr. Greger does all of his videos at once makes it take a long time for people to find out whether he really does listen to his audience.

                  A lot of people have trouble because of there being so many cliff hanger endings. It takes longer to get to the information because of Flashback Friday. Like you, I have deduced that doing two new videos per week is probably less exhausting and less expensive. Dr. Greger does a type of video that takes even longer than the types of videos people post on YouTube and if there are people here who do post things on YouTube, tell me if you started off posting every day and end up like the Krocks posting once a week or like Mark Rober posting once per month. That is the most common direction that things go. The exception is when people do interviews but Dr. Greger is doing entertaining content.

                  Back at film school students would take a whole semester to do a short movie and I am going to tell you that every part of it took so long that they would be up all night long filming it and they would be up all night long editing and they would be up all night long mixing it and I was involved in every one of those processes and they all took forever.

                  Not kidding. Plus, Dr. Greger writes books with 800 pages and he does the 24-hours of audio recording himself. 24-hours. I wish I had a YouTube channel because I would ask questions like how long did that take and he read it nearly perfectly and still there is an audience who complains that he is too sing-songy and I want to say to them, you read a technical, medical book into a tape recorder and then edit that. I have been involved in that part, too. Sitting next to my radio announcer’s best friend while she edited out all of the errors.

                  People in Hollywood can take years to write a script and if you opened the script there would be almost no words on half the pages. I have a friend from college who won a new writers award and it took him 10 years to write his book and I compare his book to Dr. Greger’s and I honestly don’t know how disciplined this doctor is to get 2 books done in the time it took me to simply read a few of his books.

                  Plus, he does so many interviews, plus the webinars and the Q&A’s. He puts so much information out.

                  So I am like you that I would feel shame if I came here and discouraged him even.

                  He deserves respect for his hard work and he has worked so hard for WFPB and for the vegan community and I do respect him.

                  People try to pit him against True North when he is living with Dr. Lisle right now.

                  It is a really crummy thing to do to try to pit people within a movement against each other.

                  1. On top of that, Dr. Greger moved to Phoenix and then to Philadelphia then to Hawaii and formed a relationship.

                    Dr. Greger is a very efficient person.

                    The quality of the videos, books, and audiobooks are all amazing, and I say that even if people hate them.

                    Something can be quantitatively better than what is out there and still cause people to be frustrated.

                    1. I have friends who have been looking for a house in the same state they live for the past year and they still haven’t decided.

                      I genuinely respect Dr. Greger even just what he accomplishes every year.

              2. “I am going to stand up for him because I think he has worked hard at being better and I don’t need him to be perfect.”

                Deb,

                Good for you!

                An excellent lesson.

                Warms the cockles.

                All the best –

                Vivamus

      2. All of the information that will be in the upcoming videos is already available in DVD form, which anyone can order from this site. Much of it is also available in Dr. Greger’s book How Not to Diet. So anyone who wants all of the information now can pay the good doctor and his group for their hard work; fair compensation for good work seems like an excellent idea to me. I find it more than generous that the same information is also available free on this site, with a bit of patience being all that is asked for in return.

        1. Maureen Okun,
          I totally agree with your comment: “… anyone who wants all of the information now can pay the good doctor and his group for their hard work; fair compensation for good work seems like an excellent idea to me. I find it more than generous that the same information is also available free on this site, with a bit of patience being all that is asked for in return.” !

          1. Darwin Galt,

            I agree with you about the generosity of the free information. Which is the point: Dr. Greger would like this information widely disseminated.

            Which is why I also support this site, with donations, by buying the books — and by buying the “business cards” and eating guide booklets, to give to folks who I think are or appear to be interested. Which reminds me: I need to buy some more.

            1. Dr. J.

              I respect your passion.

              Yes, I feel like I am part of Dr. Greger’s saving the lives of the world project when I donate.

              Even just doing Amazon Smile makes me smile.

  4. When I had right inguinal hernia surgery in 2012 I had no appetite afterwards. My body was doing something weird—healing. It took weeks before getting back to normal.

    Out of stress comes progress. This is how Elon Musk makes progress in leap frog amounts. He keeps research going non stop and sets up debates with the engineers and scientists. Thomas Edison used the same deprivation technique. He had one inventer, Nicola Tesla, he could not wear out. This is how endurance athletes train and the program the Navy Seals use. No limits; pain is good; more pain is even better.
    There was a woman engineer that Google featured on their person of the day several years ago (sorry; don’t have her name). She was smart as a whip, from Russia I think, was a world class walker, and. . . . wait for it. . . .she didn’t eat.
    Speaking of walking. Walking long distances regularly may drive the body into deprivation mode which is also survival or starving mode, aka healing mode.

    1. ‘ The unadjusted incidence density for all-cause mortality was 76.7 per 1000 person-years (419 deaths) for the 655 individuals who took less than 4000 steps per day; 21.4 per 1000 person-years (488 deaths) for the 1727 individuals who took 4000 to 7999 steps per day; 6.9 per 1000 person-years (176 deaths) for the 1539 individuals who took 8000 to 11 999 steps per day; and 4.8 per 1000 person-years (82 deaths) for the 919 individuals who took at least 12 000 steps per day. Compared with taking 4000 steps per day, taking 8000 steps per day was associated with significantly lower all-cause mortality (HR, 0.49 [95% CI, 0.44-0.55]), as was taking 12 000 steps per day (HR, 0.35 [95% CI, 0.28-0.45]).’
      https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763292

        1. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763292

          “Participants who took more steps were significantly younger, had lower BMIs, lower diet quality, a higher education level, and included a higher proportion of current drinkers, but had lower prevalence of comorbid conditions (eg, diabetes, heart disease, cancer) and mobility limitations and a lower rate of reporting fair or poor general health (Table 1).”

          “This study has several limitations. First, data reported here are observational and no causal inferences can be made. Second, the results are likely affected by unmeasured and residual confounding, and higher step counts reflect better overall health. Although analyses controlled for key demographic indicators, behavioral risk factors, self-reported health, 7 chronic conditions, and BMI, the true strength of association remains uncertain. Furthermore, the presence of peripheral artery disease and comorbidity severity, which are likely confounders, were not controlled for. Third, steps measured by the ActiGraph 7164 may be due to physical activity other than walking (eg, dancing, gardening, housework) and the device does not detect nonambulatory activities (eg, swimming, cycling). Fourth, the cadence estimates (steps/min) used here should be interpreted cautiously because these values reflect the number of steps accumulated per minute of observation on the accelerometer clock, rather than the number steps taken during a full minute of stepping.22 Fifth, death certificates may not accurately represent the true cause of death. Sixth, there were significant differences between individuals included in these analyses and those excluded because of missing data. Results may not be generalizable to those individuals with missing data who were not included. Seventh, although the stability of accelerometer measurements derived from a 7-day administration is relatively high over 6 months to several years (intraclass correlations, 0.6-0.826,27), these results do not account for changes in step counts over time.”

          1. Thanks Viv.

            Those are all very good points. We should always remember that association studies are subject to the risk of confounding by uncontrolled variable.

            Neve3rtheless, even after taking into account variables like age, co-morbidities etc etc, the reduction in risk associated with walking more steps per day was still huge ……………… see ‘model 3’ in Table 2.

            1. Mr. Fumblefingers,

              Nevertheless – no one should infer – or imply – in any way – to any degree – even a smidgen of causality from this study.

              The authors say so, themselves.

              This is the same in all of these studies.

              Do people walk more and get healthier?

              Or can healthier people walk more?

              You cannot tease that out until you do a long term experimental controlled study.

              Anything I see is short term – looking at immediate risk factors, but not at long term mortality –

              Or longer term observational.

              Whether you do one or a hundred of these observational studies, the conclusion is always the same in each and every one:

              “No causal inferences can be made.”

              Adding zero together a hundred times still only gets you zero.

              All the best –

              Vivamus

              1. Sure Viv but if we took that attitude to heart we’d all still be smoking, doing coke and driving without seatbelts And jumping out of aircraft without parachutes.

                What’s the downside to walking more after all?

                1. Ah . . .

                  Fresh air.

                  Now you are using observation and reason and experience and judgement to justify walking – instead of mere scientific studies.

                  Observation and reason and experience and judgement show us that walking is probably a pretty darned good idea.

                  Science – not so much.

                  So often, observation and reason and experience and judgement show us what the science cannot.

                  That is why observation and reason and experience and judgement beat doing web searches of studies on the Internet – hands down.

                  Otherwise – you just post studies to prove whatever you want to prove – ’cause that is what you want to believe, anyway. And avoid other studies – or try to explain inconvenient studies away.

                  Mr. Fumbelfingers.

                  Look again at the meat of the study:

                  “No causal inferences can be made.”

                  Never change that around because you would prefer to believe otherwise.

                  That ain’t science.

                  All the best –

                  Vivamus

                  1. Viv

                    “No causal inferences can be made.”

                    It’s a simple statement of scientific principle. The same principle applies to the dangers of smoking. No long term RCTs there either yet we proceed on the basis of the combined knowledge emanating from a plethora of observational studies, relevant known mechanisms of action and the absence of any credible evidence to the contrary.

                    ‘That is why observation and reason and experience and judgement beat doing web searches of studies on the Internet – hands down.’

                    Yeah, well, good luck with that one. The ‘observation and reason and experience and judgement’ of a million wackadoodles on the internet ain’t worth a row of beans let alone a good literature search by trained professionals (of which I am not one). That’s all too often just a fancy way of justifying preferring one’s own pre-formed opinions over the findings of multiple observational studies buttressed by the findings of studies on mechanism of action etc.

                    1. Well, I hope that you aren’t one if you can write ‘So often, observation and reason and experience and judgement show us what the science cannot.’

                      After all, that’s the siren cry of all too many charlatans and cranks promoting sensational claims to the naive and the gullible. No doubt ‘observation and reason and ecrtaub=xperience and judgement show us’ that the world is flat and apricot kernels cure cancer.

      1. Inedia or breatharianism is the false belief that it is possible for a person to live without consuming food, and in some cases water. It is considered a deadly pseudoscience by scientists and medical professionals, and several adherents of these practices have died from starvation or dehydration.

        1. RB,
          So far I am understanding that extended fasting should not be done without supervision. An easier, safer and beneficial way of fasting is to do it intermittantly, say, no eating after 5 pm. Some can go weeks fasting and claim a benefit. Historically, millions of people have done this through no choice of their own–starvation. Perhaps the ability to do this is coded into our genes by now.

        1. Dan,

          It was an inspiring story until she spent the rest of her life in a legal battle, then went to prison, and then died (of starvation?) at age 73.

          You put a lot of names on the page. Elon Musk and Tesla has reminded me that I decided to order my solar system today. I am doing it.

          I interacted with a few people from Tesla yesterday and talked to them about everything.

          Here’s the thing. As long as they do a proper process, I won’t regret anything.

          If they do a deceptive process, then I will have to emotionally walk myself through it.

          I don’t like being tricked and, so far, I have done my whole house and haven’t felt tricked at all, except for Roto-Rooter but they were the only big company I have used.

          I already know that the technology will be completely different 3 years from now and I have read about all of it and it will be much better but also expensive, so I am not going to think about whether I should wait until graphene batteries or flow technology or other new things because I can’t afford expensive even if it is better.

          The only thing I would regret would be my house burning down.

          But the fires with solar are .006% have a fire and .006 of those have a big fire.

          If it happens, I already have forgiven myself for not being perfect enough to figure everything out perfectly.

          Watching the Hacking the Mind documentary, they talked about mistakes as the inevitable part of the process and I have spent a few years standing at the line of making a decision about solar and because I don’t have anyone that I am caretaking and because Tesla is being extra careful this year because they had fires at Walmart and replaced a component maker and are doing extra inspections.

          I have finished and I am getting rid of my electric bill and will figure out how to get rid of my oil bill at the same time.

          Now, I just am putting myself in God’s hands and I feel like He has helped me figure out how to get rid of bill after bill after bill without negatively impacting my life.

          Next will be seeing if I can do the buy the 14 vegetables once and regrow them forever.

          That will take a lot of effort but each thing I cross off the list will help me get there.

          1. Deb,
            Dr. Bab was stuborn to the end. The legal battle was too much.

            Solar: I’ve watched the This Old House Tesla Power Wall installation in Hawaii. Impressive. If stored energy gets low, the grid may kick in, and excess solar energy may sell to the grid, in some areas. There is fire hazard with many forms of generation. Even sunlight reflected off E-window glass can melt vinyl siding.
            I might think you would allow more sunlight in for the panels, although Mother Nature has helped you with this recently. There is the upfront cost to digest, even though you may save in the long run. I suspect you will adapt right nicely.
            I am looking forward to the benefits of newer technology like quieter cars and trucks and perhaps less repair expense and accidents.

            1. Dan,

              Tesla dropping the price by 30% is the logic that changed this year.

              But mostly, two of my neighbors have solar and their bills have never been more than $9 per month.

              They say they pay for themselves in 6 years but they will cost me $70 per month until then and I am also going to be displacing my oil bill. If I succeed at getting rid of my oil bill they will pay for themselves in closer to 3 years.

              I have new electrical by someone with excellence and 45 years experience examined by a second electrician, plus my brother. so one of the fire risks is lower.

              Tesla’s fires came because of a solar city component that was made in China and that was resolved this year to prevent Walmart from suing them.

              Micro inverters and whole house surge protection are other things to improve risks.

              It will never get down to zero risk but I feel like this would be the year to buy Tesla because they are being extra careful this year in particular.

              The powerwalls are too expensive if what I will say but I got them as part of the bundle and it brought their price down by a few thousand.

              It solves for the generator issue.

              Mostly, my loan will be closer to $70 or $75 per month after the tax credits and Tesla putting the exact numbers on their website and just answering every single question versus a sales gimmick is what sold me.

              I needed to make my mind up before October if I was going to do it.

              But I can get them to take the system down and give 100% of my money back within 7 days after it is installed and it will be locals inspecting it so my carpenter will be one who does inspect it every year. He is protective over me and monitored every work done on my house.

              1. The thing about the powerwall is that many states you can also sell use of the powerwall to the utility companies on top of the energy Sold back to the grid.

                I probably won’t do that at first.

                I haven’t done the logic for that part but if the panels don’t erase my electric bill, selling the use of the powerwall would bring it the rest of the way.

              2. Deb,
                Your numbers look good to my basic comprehension. Looks like you have correct installation down, as well as monitoring. I might suggest the battery wall be installed on a non-flammable material. I have my laptop sitting on a quarter inch sheet of glass. Power companies are using smart technology now. This might help moniter and assist your system, like topping off your batteries at the off hour rate. Houston, seems like you are go.

          2. Deb,

            (1) Can you put in some sort of fire suppression system in the battery area?

            Of course, water and other chemicals aren’t going to directly suppress a lithium fire. As far as I know, anyway – you might check. But they may help slow the spread to vulnerable surrounding structures.

            Note that those with whom I have discussed a household fire-suppression water sprinkling system have all weighed against. Apparently – the water damage to the rest of the house is horrendous.

            (2) Put the batteries in an outdoor shed?

            Sleep well –

            Vivamus

            1. Vivamus,

              They recommend storing the power walls inside if you live in a place with extremes in temperature.

              I believe they will be in my basement.

              I have a smoke detector down there and a fire extinguisher.

              The newer technologies are going to be amazing in a few years but they will be expensive.

              The future if energy may be exciting.

              Eventually, I might lease an electric car.

              Once the new batteries are manufactured fast enough the prices will come down and the safety is going to be amazing.

              Right now though, Tesla is using every type of battery there is and they just can’t get enough so they are going to have some special batteries and some made in a plant in China. I watched a video and they are keeping all of the battery makers busy.

              There could be a time when the quality will be hidden in the model number. It probably is already true but I might have to watch 50 YouTube videos to find out.

              1. Components made in China is why they had fires.

                Those components have been replaced but every company seems to end up using Chinese parts eventually.

                Maybe just because they can’t keep up with their needs.

                I don’t know why there is still such quality control difference when things are made in China after all of these decades. Though they used to use a lot of child labor.

                It doesn’t make sense that they couldn’t send quality control people over there.

                1. As far as letting them use the powerealls, someone was getting $1600 per year for that but it would shorten the lifespan of the power walls.

                  Still could be worth it. Not sure but if I would end up needing to buy new powerwalls every 5 years, I will not like it and the price wouldn’t be bundled so I think it would backfire and end up costing me more.

                  1. Deb,

                    Lithium fires burn so hot and so quickly – they may cause a lot of heat without much smoke. In addition to smoke detectors you may wish to purchase something more. I have forgotten what they are called – it’s been decades since I ahve seen anything on this – but some of these detectors used to contain flame or heat detection as well smoke detection.

                    As I recollect, these may have contained both ionic detection (smoke) and infrared (heat) detection.

                    But these detectors were more expensive – so people downgraded to just smoke detection, alone, as “good enough.”

                    Make sure that you do not position the detector directly over the batteries – or it could burn up prior to sending out the alarm (unless centrally wired to alarm if destroyed – test to make sure!).

                    Additionally you may want to make sure thatany downstairs detectors are hooked in sound-wise to where you will hear them in the bedroom.

                    And a bedroom escape strategy – window – coiled chain ladder if appropriate – 12-pound sledge hammer under the bed – may be in order.

                    (Amazing how many uses you will find for a 12-pound sledge once you get one!)

                    Myself – I would wait until the technology matures.

                    You may prefer living on The Razor’s Edge.

                    Best of luck –

                    Vivamus

                    —————————–

                    The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over;
                    thus the wise say the path to Salvation is hard.

                    — Katha-Upanishad

          1. To be fair, she died in the UK aged 73 in 1977. Today, the most common age of death of women in the UK is 89.
            https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/bulletins/nationallifetablesunitedkingdom/2015-09-23

            Even in 1977, reaching the age of 73 was nothing extraordinary. In fact, the question occurs to me, what was she doing that reduced her lifespan to below what might have been expected?

            1. “Even in 1977, reaching the age of 73 was nothing extraordinary. In fact, the question occurs to me, what was she doing that reduced her lifespan to below what might have been expected?”

              Being vegetarian?

              Walking?

              Abstaining from drinking alcohol and sex?

              Doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me.

              But I dunno.

              Nuns seem to last a pretty long time . . .

              ——————–

              Just jokin’, Mr Fumblefingers.

              Everyone dies eventually.

              So far, anyway.

              We like to think that we can know why – but a lot of times, we can’t.

              All the best –

              Vivamus

                1. Understood.

                  Certainly no disagreement.

                  I found the following in your posted url illuminating:

                  “Dr. Moore demonstrated her theories about dieting. and exercise with lengthy treks in Europe and the United States. Dr. Moore, an engineer by profession . . .”

                  An engineer by profession.

                  Ahh . . . now it all makes sense.

                  These are the sorts of people who can get themselves into major trouble when they turn their training and experience toward health issues.

                  No fault of their own. They just do not know.

                  Because no one thinks to tell them.

                  Their training may be perfect for their own field. But when they try to apply their field’s principles to health issues – they paint themselves into the oddest corners.

                  Witness Linus Pauling and Vitamin C.

                  Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry and Mathematical Physics, summa cum laude.

                  Two – not one , but two – count them – two Nobel prizes.

                  Barely beat out for a third by Crick and Watson.

                  Nobody does that. Pauling was extraordinary.

                  Pauling’s megavitamin C business all made sense to him scientifically – his work on Vitamin C quoted over 200 scientific papers – it was all very impressive – a perfect interwoven tale – a perfect scientific conclusion – I found it all completely convincing.

                  But it was all wrong.

                  Right academically. Right scientifically. Right intellectually. No stone unturned.

                  Is dotted an Ts crossed.

                  But wrong in a health care setting.

                  How’d it happen?

                  Well – Pauling had great training and great capability.

                  It just happened to be the wrong training and wrong capability for health care.

                  That is an entirely different bag of tricks.

                  Health care has none of the precision of Engineering or of Physical Chemistry or of Mathematical Physics.

                  Nor the same sort of universal principles.

                  And that is the entire point of the training – from day one.

                  That is why Ph.D. and M.D. are two completely different educational and experiential pathways.

                  Mr. Fumbelfingers.

                  Always a pleasure –

                  Vivamus

                  1. Vivamus,

                    I just learned that Pritikus was an engineer, by training and I think by profession.

                    “Nathan Pritikin (August 29, 1915 – February 21, 1985) was an American inventor, engineer, nutritionist and longevity researcher.” (wikipedia). Apparently, he was diagnosed with leukemia in 1958, which went into remission till 1984, when severe symptoms reappeared; he then died by suicide.

                    So, it is possible to gain expertise in other fields. Though it does take effort and time; quite a bit of learning.

                    1. V,
                      I dropped the Pritikin name to a retired engineer being treated for prostate cancer. I thought this engineer might listen to another engineer. I also gave him a Dr. Greger frig, daily dozen magnet. This man had been an engineer at a dairy plant before running military bases. The next day I went to work painting his house, there were trash bags of dairy cartons sitting outside.

                    2. Neat!

                      Pritikin was where my interest in much of this began.

                      He got a lot right!

                      5% fat turned out to be too low for me – but he was turning around severe situations, and I was looking for healthy maintenance – his approach made sense for what he was doing.

                      Of course – Dr. Greger’s grandmother’s experience with Pritikin is well known.

                      Sometimes the engineers get it right. Sometimes the M.D.s get it wrong.

                      Keep those eyes wide open –

                      Vivamus

                    3. Dan,

                      You wrote: ” The next day I went to work painting his house, there were trash bags of dairy cartons sitting outside.”

                      Excellenter!

                      Don’t play doctor without a license – but –

                      I have had some good apparent results – I cannot absolutely prove it, but my standards of proof are pretty high – i.e., associations are not “proof” – the people involved sure are convinced – with referral to an excellent WFPB vegan-style diet in regards to prostate issues: decreasing PSAs and apparent improved (over the anticipated) surgical pathology.

                      My method is simple – I just do a lot of listening. Then – pique their interest and email those declaring a clear interest the following Dr. Greger videos.

                      Note bene: I always defer to the person’s M.D. – this material is entirely supplemental, and is definitely not intended to be a substitute for locally licensed M.D. supervision.

                      I also downplay the likelihood of this working – I give it, say, a 30% chance. With it being more likely to have a positive effect the more that they fully embrace the material.

                      But I never, never, never oversell.

                      (Actual results showing some positive effect have been closer to 100% – but why tell them that? You never want to risk raising false hopes.)

                      The material on athletes at the end is needed to get athletes off their obsession with megadose animal protein. That is a hard nut to crack – but the gladiator videos seem to do the trick nicely.

                      In the past I accompanied all of this with in-person encounters – question and answer, encouragement, drive certain parts home – but we live in a new era.

                      More’s the pity.

                      Dr. Greger – in his earlier style videos – does some really, really wonderful work.

                      Work to be proud of.

                      I never send links to the newer style videos.

                      Here’s the list:

                      ——————————————

                      Cancer Reversal Through Diet?
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/cancer-reversal-through-diet/

                      ——————

                      Diet and PSA levels:

                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/treating-advanced-prostate-cancer-with-diet-part-1/

                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/treating-advanced-prostate-cancer-with-diet-part-2/

                      ——————

                      Programmed cancer cell death – breast and prostate – how it works:

                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-answer-to-the-pritikin-puzzle/

                      ——————

                      Prostate Cancer Survival: The A/V Ratio
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/prostate-cancer-survival-the-av-ratio/

                      ——————-

                      Flaxseed vs. Prostate Cancer
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flaxseed-vs-prostate-cancer/

                      Was It the Flaxseed, Fat Restriction, or Both?
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/was-it-the-flaxseed-fat-restriction-or-both/

                      ——————

                      The following are in vitro studies, and as such warrant skepticism. But they may still be of interest:

                      #1 Anticancer Vegetable
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/flashback-friday-1-anticancer-vegetable/

                      Which Fruit Fights Cancer Better?
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/which-fruit-fights-cancer-better/

                      Which Nut Fights Cancer Better?
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/which-nut-fights-cancer-better/

                      ———————–

                      Best is a variety of plants – not pills:

                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/best-supplements-for-prostate-cancer/

                      ——————

                      Calculate your healthy eating score
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/calculate-your-healthy-eating-score/

                      Dr. Greger’s Daily Dozen Checklist
                      Dhttps://nutritionfacts.org/video/dr-gregers-daily-dozen-checklist-2/

                      ——————

                      Athletics / working out:

                      The Gladiator Diet How Vegetarian Athletes Stack Up
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-gladiator-diet-how-vegetarian-athletes-stack-up/

                      The First Studies on Vegetarian Athletes
                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-first-studies-on-vegetarian-athletes/

                      ————————-

                      Reality check:

                      (careful – I find the following video motivating but potentially depressing – i.e., prostate surgery statistics – consider not watching until another day):

                      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/changing-mans-diet-prostate-cancer-diagnosis/

                    1. Mr Fumblefingers,

                      “Nobel Disease” – led to a merry web search exploration – from here to there to elsewhere. To –

                      “Cold Fusion.”

                      I had forgotten all about Cold Fusion.

                      Very exciting at the time!

                      It looks like a booklet on “Nobel Disease” should be handed out to every new Nobel Laureate along with his prize.

                      Thank you,

                      Vivamus

            2. Fumbles,
              She was extraordinary. Perhaps we will never know the full story. I suspect she was an unrelenting, stubborn goat unable to solve her legal fight which motovated her to stop eating and living.

              1. True enough. I just wonder if it wasn’t her breatharian beliefs that caused her to stop eating though rather than a desire to stop living. She doesn’t sound the type just to give up and fade away.

  5. …I really look forward to hearing ground breaking data, “truth to power”….but “cherry picking” I thought was above this site’s operative. “Fasting” is too general a term. Would team “NuturionFacts.org” please read the book “The Phoenix Protocol” by August Dunning AND I would like to see a member of their staff complete this Dry Fast and report their findings on this site – “walk the talk”.

    If no one is able to complete a “Dry Fast”…at least read the book and comment here. Very disappointed in this posting…integrity is key in this turbulent times.

    1. Mary, in the 11 or 12 years I have been tuning into NF, I have only seen Dr Greger make one video that amounted to a book review.

      Dr Greger researches publications for studies of topical interest. They don’t perform studies, just report on the findings of studies performed by others.

  6. I realise for some papers listed in the source, they are not available anywhere online as they are simply too old. As an example, “Protective effect of intermittent fasting on the mortality of gamma-irradiated mice”. Can Dr Greger upload his scanned copy in PDF to NutritionFacts and link it in the source? I believe he did it for some papers, at least for some recent videos done on fasting.

  7. The definition of “therapeutic fasting” is all over the place. Some websites have ‘doctors’ claiming it must involve only drinking water while other websites have their ‘doctor’ say ‘it is a modified fast, including vegetable soups, freshly-squeezed fruit and herbal tea with a small about of honey, as well as plenty of water.’

    As usual the internet leaves people confused with contradiction.

  8. I had fasted for one week many years ago and later fasted for two weeks. No problem
    I had heard of people fasting for a month and longer. Read about True North in Santa Rosa which I found interesting so decided to chance a month.
    The first week was ok, the second felt fine as did the third. The fourth was another story because I felt so great I didn’t want to end the fast. Really, that last week was so great that I planned to do the same the following year in the fall. However I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, a genetic problem with my 2 sisters, daughter and granddaughter.
    I ask my GP who said he wouldn’t recommend due to my age. I turned 80 a few months after after the fast but in excellent health that was 7 years ago. I only take my thyroid Med every morn
    I then told my GP that I became a vegetarian 53 years ago. 20 years later I went vegan and a few years later went Plant Based the Tuesday
    the day China Study released.
    I would be very interested to know Dr. Greger’s thoughts on longer fasting in advanced age.

    1. I would rather ask a gastroenterologist, someone who specializes in the digestive system, not a doctor who spends his time all over the place on topics and does not know the detailed intricacies of the fasting beyond reading a few papers.

        1. Maggie,

          That was such a perfect answer. Perfect attitude.

          Dr. Greger has a whole section on fasting in How Not to Diet and I believe more videos are coming.

      1. Margaret, I would rather listen to a doctor who is diverse (“spends his time all over the place on topics”) and not focused on a single specialty as he would have a better understanding of your total body and health. Because of Dr. Greger’s extensive research he’ll know more about how fasting affects all your body systems and any cautions due to your age.

        Reality Bites, Shame on You for your flippant remark about Dr Greger’s work (“does not know the detailed intricacies of fasting beyond reading a few papers”). This man is an ardent researcher, with a medical license, who can interpolate and extrapolate huge amounts of data and its relationship to the human body. This man shares his research with all to better the Human Condition. Again, SHAME on you Reality Bites for denigrating this mans work and his passion!

    2. Margaret, I too see an endocrinologist due to a family history (all six siblings) of Hashimoto’s and a personal history of gestational diabetes, which is a major risk factor for type 2 diabetes, another condition that runs in my family. He prefers that I take steps to keep my blood sugar level constant, suggesting frequent smaller meals rather than any sort of a fasting regimen. You might check with your endocrinologist.

      1. Caroline,

        That is my inclination, as well.

        “Steady state” nutrition is likely of particular importance in regards to intrinsic insulin production, especially if it is in any way compromised – if you are just making enough insulin for routine function without much extra reserve capacity, you may wish to be very careful about bouncing demand for insulin around with large swings in dietary intake.

        I am open to considering whatever Dr. Greger has unearthed about fasting – as he chooses to reveal.

        But the long lived people I have encountered over time are more the routine plodding methodical types of people than not.

        More steady state.

        Such habits run deep:

        Healthy food. Low BMIs. Low to moderate activity.

        No vegans.

        Not much exercise beyond walks and dancing – certainly no strenuous exercise.

        I generally find it best to go with experience over adopting the latest scientific passion – knowing that the latest scientific passion will change back and forth with the seasons.

        And I think it best not to conflate ideology with health.

        Caroline.

        All the best –

        Vivamus

    3. Margaret, I think you should look into the paper:

      Finnell et al, 2018. Is fasting safe? A chart review of adverse events during medically supervised, water-only fasting. BMC complementary and alternative medicine, 18(1), p.67.

      Among 768 patients who participated in water only fasting at TrueNorth Health Center, there were two major adverse events that required hospitalization. In one, a 73 year old male experienced severe dehydration on day 3. In the the other, a 70 year old male experienced severe low serum sodium (hyponatramia) on day 9.

      So, in prolonged water-only fasting, life threatening dehydration and depletion of electrolytes are both possible, and occurred in elderly individuals. Personally, I’d take precautions like high water intake and use of some electrolyte drink (say a sugar free sports drink), and wouldn’t undertake a prolonged fast unless a responsible individual was checking in on me daily. In an ideal world, there would be TrueNorth type centers nationwide so one could find sympathetic medical supervision for fasts at reasonable cost.

    4. Margaret Reynolds – Re: fasting in advanced age. Dr. G interprets scientific information for us and presents it to us. If you really want an answer about fasting in an advanced age ask the experts in fasting. True North are the experts in this country. Greger won’t give you an answer anyway precisely because he is not an expert.

    5. Hi, Margaret Reynolds! Dr. Greger is not able to respond to all of the questions on this site, which is why he has a team of volunteers to help him. Prolonged fasting should be medically supervised. There are some medical conditions that can make fasting unsafe, and the supervising doctor can advise you on those. Hashimoto’s thyroiditis is an autoimmune condition, and autoimmune conditions generally tend to respond favorably to fasting. If your GP is not experienced in supervising prolonged fasts, you may want to seek a doctor who is. I hope that helps!

  9. Finally! I’ve been doing water only fasting as long as 13 days over the last year. Lost 45 pounds and feel great plus a WFPB diet. I’m curious to find out if I’m going to die because of my fasting.

  10. “’war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object that we are capable of conceiving’ arose—namely us.”

    Ech… humans are so in love with themselves. Meanwhile they can’t find it in themselves to stop demonically torturing mice and other sentient beings. Sorry, Darwin, I’m unimpressed.

    Exercise induces hormesis, too. And instead of the negative impacts that come from food (and nutrient) deprivation, you get stronger bones, stronger lungs, a stronger heart, better blood flow, more lean muscle mass, etc.

    1. S,
      Humans are fast finding out their flesh and bones are not all important. My local paper reads that a kiosk to be installed at City Hall (to collect bills) is: 1. bilingual, 2. works 24 X 7, 3. has no moods, 4. is always smiling, 5. never asks for a raise, 6. is never late to work.

      1. Dan C.

        And yet, it doesn’t give a caring glance and a warm, friendly presence.

        I love, love, love technology and yet I still go to the grocery stores and go to the bank and build relationships with every place in town possible.

        My town is still a town that does that and it is protection for me.

        I have been watching homeless videos and the homeless people who are able to form protective communities tend to be healthier and happier and have less crime and people look out for each other.

        I don’t know if they can program a kiosk to look out for you.

        1. Deb,
          I’m not in the fast lane either. I got pulled over this year by the Highway Patrol Commander who said I wasn’t driving fast enough. I was but I think he was just getting his quota. No charge.

          1. Dan,

            I found myself in a police car one evening – a pickup from the airport.

            As we proceeded to our rural destination my driver noted that the driver in the car ahead of us was drunk.

            I looked – everything seemed fine by me.

            Driving slowly, in fact. Centered in the road – no swerving or anything like that.

            Absolutely perfect.

            Why do you say he’s drunk? asks I.

            He’s being too careful. If I weren’t on chauffeur duty, I would stop him and check him out.

            Oh, says I. Oh.

            I will remember.

            Dan.

            You can be too careful –

            Vivamus

    2. “they can’t find it in themselves to stop demonically torturing mice”

      I haven’t demonically tortured a mouse in weeks.

      All the best –

      Vivamus

  11. It’s the perpetual search for a magic cure, imo. It’s really balance where it all comes together. Fast, for a time. Eat and nourish yourself with the right foods. Sleep. Wake. Move.

    1. S,
      I’m content to eat when I’m hungry and sleep when I can, drink an extra cup of coffee and watch the pelicans from my kayak. Nothing complicated.

  12. Dr Greger you are my hero, Thank you for all the wonderful information and health topics on your videos and the fun way in which you share it.

    I have a question, is it safe to exercise in the morning after, let’s say, 15 hours of fasting? I do that regularly and feel great, but I would like to know if it’s ok. Thank you again, I’m a huge fan!!!

    1. Caution is advised for those who experience vasovagal syncope: “Episodes are triggered by fasting, dehydration, alcohol, hot rooms, hot showers/baths and queuing.” The EMT who treated my son while a high school athlete said his episode was triggered by fasting and dehydration. He has also fainted due to this problem three times following a blood draw that required overnight fasting.

  13. what is wrong with this video is of course its incompleteness; preaching to the choir of course.

    One thing left out is the history of set fasting periods in religions around the world ..
    I have great respect for True North where long supervised fasts result in great benefits — idea here is supervised.
    I personally am comfortable with an 8 hr feeding window; then there is the athlete’s paradox where endurance athletes like Rich Roll do eat one meal a day; whatever works.

    1. He’s reporting what’s in the scientific literature and you are complaining because he doesn’t give equal weight to stories and anecdotes?

  14. I took notice of the frequency (famine per 100 years in Britain) of famine and extent (much of upper Egypt / 2/3 of Italy wiped out) and desperation (prisoners executed and eaten / families eating their own). I grew up with the notion that remote islanders were cannibals. Starvation can happen anywhere and get it going. The U.S. has its own stories. Jamestown was a failure. The dead were buried, dug up and eaten. The Donner Party. We seem to define cannibalism as eating humans. What about other highly sentient beings? What is killing the planet called?

        1. Oppenheimer has such an enigmatic facial expression.

          Perfectly understandable.

          I wonder how many scientists and technology people have a deep pang of conscience about something?

  15. Off topic:
    I just did an online application for absentee voting. The general election will not require notarization. A copy of some ID is required. I’m looking forward to all voting being this way. Some states already do it.

    1. Dan,

      I am not looking forward to voting being done that way.

      Mostly because every once in a while there have been books on how people cheat with mail-in ballots.

      Some get thrown out. Some places like Frat houses end up with 100 ballots from students who were there a previous year. That happens all the time. Similar to the stimulus checks. There are so many errors with mail-in ballots and so many ways for people to cheat.

      There are so many crooked things that happen during elections already and there are a lot of crooked things that happen with mail.

      https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search

      I am not parroting Trump saying that. I am saying it because it has even gone to court during primaries.

      The frat house and college dorm thing was happening back when I went to college. It is going to be a bigger problem now. My relatives who died still got offered mail-in ballots this year even though we went through probate in the town. I could easily have cheated if I was criminally inclined.

      My snow-birder relatives have the same situation where it would be easy to multiple vote because of having houses in multiple states.

      1. Dan,

        The stimulus checks had millions of mistakes.

        The same thing is going to happen with mail ballots and mail voter fraud is already the easiest way to commit fraud.

      2. Deb,
        That’s the first I’ve heard the downside of mail-in voting. One is required to send an ID copy with the ballot. The penalty for fraud is hefty. Maybe the virus tips in favor of mail-in.

        1. Let’s put the vote-by-mail ‘fraud’ myth to rest
          https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/494189-lets-put-the-vote-by-mail-fraud-myth-to-rest

          There’s No Evidence Supporting Trump’s Mail Ballot Warnings, FBI Says
          https://www.npr.org/series/754498433/secure-your-vote-2020-election-security

          The Myth of Voter Fraud
          https://www.brennancenter.org/issues/ensure-every-american-can-vote/vote-suppression/myth-voter-fraud

          Trump’s false claims on mail-in voting do more to harm elections than threat of fraud, experts say
          https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/03/politics/election-threat-trump-mail-in-voting-claims-invs/index.html

    2. Dan,

      I am already signed up. Looking forward to seeing the ballot in the mail.

      I will probably triple check everything over a few days – I do not want any possible error – I may even photocopy it if that is not illegal – and then drop it off directly at the curbside ballot box at City Hall – the ballot box looks like a strange colored free standing metal mailbox labeled “Ballots” – EARLY – rather than trusting the return to the USPS.

      I had to call the City Clerk to learn about the existence and location of the ballot box.

      Universal mail balloting and driver’s license voter registration seem to me to be the way to go.

      The easier you make it to vote – the more people participating in voting – whichever way things go – the more real the democracy.

      The harder you make it for people to vote – the more barriers put in the way of voting – the longer the lines in the less favored neighborhoods – the less real the democracy – and the more the entrenched rulers stay in power.

      It’s all pretty obvious.

      Vote early!

      Vivamus

        1. On the topic of fasting,
          I hope people take the time to listen to one of my favorite people, Rich Roll, speaking with Alan Goldhamer (of True North water fasting fame) about a number of topics.

          Prevelance of obesity, addictions, food as an addictive substance, food environment, salt, oil, sugar, withdrawl, how water fasting can help, our microbiome, and much more.

          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yaWVflQolmM

          Enjoy.

  16. Animal studies are inaccurate and unreliable for studying human conditions and should not be referenced. I’m disappointed Dr Gregor when there.

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