Coconut Water and Depression

Coconut Water and Depression
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The science behind the marketing of foods for antidepressant effects.

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

If you go online, you can see claims that coconut water may be “beneficial for depression.” And, they even cite studies. There it is, in black and white: “Coconut water ameliorates depression.” Did they just make that up? No, click on it and there it is in PubMed, just like they said. And, for a limited time offer of just $39.95, the publisher will let you read it. But, why waste your time—it says it right there in the title: “coconut water ameliorates depression.” Might as well spend that 40 bucks buying some coconut water to boost your mood! And, anyway, reading all the studies, so you don’t have to—that’s my job!

If you look at the study, it starts out saying that “plants are frequently tested [these days] for [their] antidepressant potential. Okay, sounds good. “Therefore coconut water a commonly used plant based beverage was selected to explore its antidepressant potential.” I’m with you so far. So, “[r]odents were selected for this study and a forced swim test was conducted.” What?

The forced swim test is one of the “most widely [used] test[s] to explore antidepressant activity.” You fill up a “transparent cylinder” with water over the mouse’s head, so it’s “forced to swim.” And then, you drop a mouse in and see how long it struggles to keep from drowning before you see it simply give up and just float to the top. And, lo and behold, you feed them some coconut water first, and they hold out a bit longer before giving up—demonstrating an antidepressant effect. Therefore, we should use coconut water to treat “depressive disorders” in people. What?! It depresses me to even read such wasted research opportunities. Where did they even get this idea?

It was invented by a group of French scientists in the 70s to model “behavioral despair.” Reminds me of the Harlow experiments with “vertical chamber confinement” that he called “the pit of despair,” which was basically just a metal contraption with sloped sides. Lock a baby monkey in it for 45 days, and you can produce “profound” behavioral changes. They end up just kind of hugging themselves in a fetal position. And, afterwards, after 10 weeks alone in the chamber, they exhibit behaviors like “contact cling[ing],” where they just come together and hug each other for long periods of time. “It is not yet clear why confinement in the vertical chamber is apparently so effective in producing abnormal behavior.” But, not to worry; they’ve got lots more studies to do. I’ll spare you the research on puppies.

I can see why you’d want some model to test out new antidepressant drugs. But, if you want to figure out if pomegranates have antidepressant effects, why not just feed people some pomegranates, rather than chucking some mice off the deep end? There are literally thousands of published studies on food or food products using this forced swim test, allowing the egg industry to be like, see, “eggs may be an [egg]cellent food for preventing and alleviating the conditions of major depression.” Why? All because rats struggled longer? Whereas in people, removing eggs from the diet improves mood, though they also removed meat. So, it’s not clear which did what, or maybe they were just eating more healthy plant foods, like soy—which the soy industry is happy to tell you “decreases depressive-related behavior” in postmenopausal rats, who were swimming for their lives.

In people, though, the best soy products may be able to do is just work as well as drugs like Prozac and Zoloft, and we all know how little that’s actually saying. I mean, the forced swim test is just “a reaction to the acute stressful stimulus of being placed in a container without an escape route,” whereas “human depression reflects a chronic subjective emotional state”—an “internal emotional state.” And, to date, we haven’t been able to ask animals how they’re feeling. You can’t even just look at human behavior and tell if someone has a depression diagnosis.

So, “it’s impossible to conclude” that the swim test is some test for human depression. “The ease with which” thousands of scientists do that, however, “is disquieting,” in that it makes assumptions “that discourage…critical thought.” In fact, the whole thing has been compared to some Monty Python skit, where you see if the witch floats or not. “[B]ut today it is in use to label a rodent as being depressed.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Gadini via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

If you go online, you can see claims that coconut water may be “beneficial for depression.” And, they even cite studies. There it is, in black and white: “Coconut water ameliorates depression.” Did they just make that up? No, click on it and there it is in PubMed, just like they said. And, for a limited time offer of just $39.95, the publisher will let you read it. But, why waste your time—it says it right there in the title: “coconut water ameliorates depression.” Might as well spend that 40 bucks buying some coconut water to boost your mood! And, anyway, reading all the studies, so you don’t have to—that’s my job!

If you look at the study, it starts out saying that “plants are frequently tested [these days] for [their] antidepressant potential. Okay, sounds good. “Therefore coconut water a commonly used plant based beverage was selected to explore its antidepressant potential.” I’m with you so far. So, “[r]odents were selected for this study and a forced swim test was conducted.” What?

The forced swim test is one of the “most widely [used] test[s] to explore antidepressant activity.” You fill up a “transparent cylinder” with water over the mouse’s head, so it’s “forced to swim.” And then, you drop a mouse in and see how long it struggles to keep from drowning before you see it simply give up and just float to the top. And, lo and behold, you feed them some coconut water first, and they hold out a bit longer before giving up—demonstrating an antidepressant effect. Therefore, we should use coconut water to treat “depressive disorders” in people. What?! It depresses me to even read such wasted research opportunities. Where did they even get this idea?

It was invented by a group of French scientists in the 70s to model “behavioral despair.” Reminds me of the Harlow experiments with “vertical chamber confinement” that he called “the pit of despair,” which was basically just a metal contraption with sloped sides. Lock a baby monkey in it for 45 days, and you can produce “profound” behavioral changes. They end up just kind of hugging themselves in a fetal position. And, afterwards, after 10 weeks alone in the chamber, they exhibit behaviors like “contact cling[ing],” where they just come together and hug each other for long periods of time. “It is not yet clear why confinement in the vertical chamber is apparently so effective in producing abnormal behavior.” But, not to worry; they’ve got lots more studies to do. I’ll spare you the research on puppies.

I can see why you’d want some model to test out new antidepressant drugs. But, if you want to figure out if pomegranates have antidepressant effects, why not just feed people some pomegranates, rather than chucking some mice off the deep end? There are literally thousands of published studies on food or food products using this forced swim test, allowing the egg industry to be like, see, “eggs may be an [egg]cellent food for preventing and alleviating the conditions of major depression.” Why? All because rats struggled longer? Whereas in people, removing eggs from the diet improves mood, though they also removed meat. So, it’s not clear which did what, or maybe they were just eating more healthy plant foods, like soy—which the soy industry is happy to tell you “decreases depressive-related behavior” in postmenopausal rats, who were swimming for their lives.

In people, though, the best soy products may be able to do is just work as well as drugs like Prozac and Zoloft, and we all know how little that’s actually saying. I mean, the forced swim test is just “a reaction to the acute stressful stimulus of being placed in a container without an escape route,” whereas “human depression reflects a chronic subjective emotional state”—an “internal emotional state.” And, to date, we haven’t been able to ask animals how they’re feeling. You can’t even just look at human behavior and tell if someone has a depression diagnosis.

So, “it’s impossible to conclude” that the swim test is some test for human depression. “The ease with which” thousands of scientists do that, however, “is disquieting,” in that it makes assumptions “that discourage…critical thought.” In fact, the whole thing has been compared to some Monty Python skit, where you see if the witch floats or not. “[B]ut today it is in use to label a rodent as being depressed.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Gadini via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Doctor's Note

Isn’t that unbelievable? Now you know why I try to stick to human studies on NutritionFacts.org.

Here’s a link to the video I referred to: Do Antidepressant Drugs Really Work?

What about Coconut Water for Athletic Performance vs. Sports Drinks? Check out the video!

What about coconut oil? See, for example:

How can we boost mood naturally?

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

154 responses to “Coconut Water and Depression

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  1. Excellent video! Thank you, Dr Greger, for doing the research that we lay people don’t have access to. And explaining so clearly how these studies are so irrelevant and biased. I imagine there are numerous false studies like this funded by entities who have a biased interest in swaying the public one way or another. It appears they are trying to appear legitimate by having the study “published”.

      1. .
        HELP STOP CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

        Lien–
        Of course, there are limited laws against cruelty to animals, but the laws express only a public consensus about what “cruelty” means. Write your legislators to let them know what you believe, which is a more powerful message for change than any other.

        Even a phone call works wonders, and any public reference librarian can provide the phone number for your legislator, state or federal. In preparation for the phone call, simply writing out a script of things to say– even if you must write every word– helps with your self-confidence and a more natural-sounding message.

        Above all, make your message personal, in the sense you are driven by personal conviction, not because you may be a member of an organized group. Legislators and their staff people are expert at picking out people whose message sounds suspiciously similar to dozens of other, similar messages– so make your message personal. Include a brief, personal anecdote about why the issue is so important to you.

        Remember, cruelty to animals in most cases does not stem directly from evil intentions, but from culturally-bred indifference. Some scientists argue that stressing lab rats with threat of drowning is the only way to obtain an accurate measure of performance, since rats do poorly on Likert questionnaires. As Dr. Greger points out, however, some scientists do not spend their research funds as wisely as they might. Instead of measuring a single experimental dietary element like coconut water, presumably because the funding agency may believe that important, they should compare more relevant dietary factors– but without the threat of drowning.

      2. You bet there should be! That’s why I make an effort to search for cruelty free products. It won’t stop the mad scientists conducting THIS kind of research but it will certainly help spare countless animals being tortured in the cosmetic and personal care industry.

    1. Yes, how such a way of thinking and operating could become a norm?
      This whole matter of the relationship of humans to animals, whether in laboratory testing. food or entertainment is just stunning.

  2. I know. We can take two groups of research scientist. Group 1 receives a letter confirming that their grant application has been accepted and Group 2 receives a rejection letter for their latest grant application. They are then both tossed it a swimming pool filled with coconut water and timed to see who long they are able to tread coconut water before giving up to see if coconut water can help with feelings of depression…

    1. I’d like to see this excuse for sadism, called animal testing stopped! Disgusting, what kind of ‘humans’ spend their workdays doing this?
      Science indeed!

      1. Human depression mostly results from humans being trapped in complex social restraints (family/school/work, etc.) where there is essentially no escape.

        Similar to the experimental designs.

        Humans force younger humans (offspring) to socialize together from childhood until they retire and can possibly escape the madness (by this point in time many do not any longer have the sense to escape). This creates humans who have tendencies towards bullying…bullying in schools leads to bullying in the workplace…and by group stalkers…and by the super-bullies…the cops

        I think it’s unfair to treat humans this way. Humans should be ashamed of themselves for treating themselves this way?

  3. That is so disturbing at so many levels!

    I have seen animal studies, which were more interesting and less abusive and, which gave more useful information, but this study isn’t it.

    I hate that PubMed is mined with studues like that and that it is so expensive to see the studies.

    Do they have a starving control animal who gives up faster?

    1. Deb, all vivisection (animal testing) is horrific. Even if the experiments you’re reading about that you think seem “less abusive” aren’t as gruesome, the way these animals are bred, kept, and eventually killed is horrific. The use of any animals in any type of experiment is immoral as well as senseless in gathering information to be extrapolated to humans.

  4. Sad stuff.
    Back in the day I volunteered to do some sports type activities with very young kids who were severely abused and withdrawn from parental care.
    Distinctly remember her, forget the age, five or so, doing that clinging thing as mentioned in the video the baby monkey would display after isolation…..
    Literally would not leave you alone, just grab onto a leg and hold on. Oblivious to all else going around.

    So I don’t know, perhaps the line between primate depression and us is not so significant. Wondered about that clinging and this is the first I have seen a very similar thing.

    Imagining now the particular abuse she must have been subjected to as well as this video and the animals.

    Not a good start to the day…;( Hope it improves.

    1. Damn…thinking about it now, it will not let go for a while…That tiny little girl was kept in some cage or box somewhere with no human contact probably for some thought of wrong by a human monster. Who is a human monster because he was kept in some similar cage for some imagined wrong back in his day. And the likelihood is much increased she also will endeavor this behavior in the oft event she did grow up and have kids…

      Is there any hope for us?
      Abusing these animals….. is it just they are wrong and we are right, the scientists, or the how many more things to include factory farming, and the way we think on things, which lead us to do such and consider animals our owned objects to do with what we please?
      It becomes obvious here wrong. But how much is behind the shutters found?

  5. I already know that after I walk all these things through, I have to figure out how to help change some of these things.

    I know that Dr Barnard has something for helping the animals, but studies like these shouldn’t be happening, particularly for depression.

    I have seen so many examples of animal abuse since I started aiming WFPB. I don’t even understand it.

    When they describe serial killers one marker is that they are people who like torturing and killing animals

    My dog looked up at my so innocently and trustingly and sweetly every day and I tell him, I am trying to save your life and I can’t even imagine that people would be frivolous with an animals life.

    I guess I can imagine it, because there have been times in my life I put out mice traps, which kill, so I am already a hypocrite, but even getting mice out of my house is something I ponder deeply.

    1. There is no purity to this thing of human…”so I am already a hypocrite, ”
      Inevitably some mice and such are killed in harvest or to protect a crop.
      That does not make us hypocrites to try to do less harm. We tend to think in absolute fashions due to the philosophical underpinnings of our culture and education.We display what is called a absolutist type religious philosophy, god devil absolute good and absolute bad. WE may be atheists even but these underpinnings, of foundational thought make us consider things in these ways. We are all educated to think in this fashion in western cultures.

      It does not serve us well this way of thinking in some fashion, this is one. IN some manners it does serve us and society well. .

      1. Actually this is in debate with meat eaters their most common tactic. To display one incidence of harm, state you cause it, and then state inaction on all the rest is a necessity. Which infers perfect action and the logical correlation is then, if we may not act morally correct in all things, no moral action is necessary nor able to be performed at all….a logical misstep. We jail all who commit crime we can prove, but do not solve all crimes. This does not infer the jailing of the few we do find and convict, is not morally and logically necessary. Moral action may be taken if even it is partial.

        1. Ron,

          You are doing philosophy again.

          Those thoughts are too big for me right this minute.

          My co-worker wouldn’t watch Isle of Dogs, because the director has a dog die tragically in every movie and Isle of Dogs was a movie I laughed the whole time and I don’t get upset with theoretical dogs, except some movies.

          1. No offense Deb but the introduction of hypocrite, that mention, draws in a response of thought of philosophy. As the notion has psychological and philosophical roots…all docs take a hypocritical oath. And the name itself is drawn from a philosopher. So one cannot now cry foul.

            So I find it introduced before my mention.

            I should add in the interest of fairness, the Asian counterpart a view all does have a oneness and sameness to it, has its logical fault being in that then allows no real good nor bad to be determined at all. A allowance of thought direction which causes the existance of some of the most heinous peoples in mankinds history, a Pol Pot who murdered millions came from a Asian culture with sameness as philosophical theme in religion..

            But always it appears these ways of thinking allow this gross atrocity or that to exist. It seems to prevent them, we must look at our way of thinking to remedy the situation and perhaps combine the two Asian and western thought to produce viable rational..

            1. Hippocratic Oath….some study based upon before and after coffee consumption being perhaps necessary. Which does seem to help depression I think…coffee

                1. Seeing this video I suggest we all go drink some coffee. I have now drank two, and feel a bit better for it. Despite what the state of California tends to say about it.:)

                  1. That is an interesting study on coffee.

                    The average woman’s age was 63, is what I am going to point out and I am going to say that women who are that age are less likely to have depression than younger women who drink coffee.

                    I used to be a big coffee drinker and also had big depression, when I was young. I came from abuse and would have blamed that, but the depression didn’t start until my hormones started and ended completely once my hormones stopped. I blame hormones, but I ate no healthy foods and drank so much coffee and soda. I was a Double Gulp and just as big a coffee kind of person. Now, I drink water and tea and watching my beloved relatives die and watching my dog go into his 4th week with hemangiosarcoma, when the vet says, his tumor is so big that he won’t make it past 4 weeks, I look inside and find it fascinating that I am not depressed at all. Maybe if I had some coconut water back then, I might have had a vitamin or two or something and I might not have been as dramatic in my young adulthood. All I can say is that I drank enough coffee and had so much depression that I doubt that nurses study very much. but I look at the average age 63, and think of all of my elderly female relatives and I always wondered how they were so funny, no matter what happened and I think it is the age advantage.

  6. No animals were hurt in the making of this motion picture, except the ones the caterer brought for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    1. Greg, it’s a depressing thought tripping over the dead bull calf (casualty of the dairy industry) on the way to the refridgerator to get a product that was processed from the milk expressly meant for that poor thing… And to boot, milk products just add to the risk of cancer, hip fractures, heart disease and other diseases. Now that’s depressing. https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/

  7. Thanks Dr. Greger for making a great example of the huge VARIABILITY of publications on PubMed. I had made the erroneous assumption that all publications on PubMed made credible findings- wrong!

    If that study was funded by the coconut milk industry, this has to be the number one ranked evidence of the deception game used to swindle people out of their health and their money not to mention the extreme exaggeration of the correlation made to stress-survival responses to rats to complex human emotions. I also felt great sadness for the rat.

    Love the idea of just feeding humans the food and seeing what happens, Dah!!

    A proud and healthy monthly supporter of Nutritionfacts.org

    1. Rats DO have emotions like humans. Non-human animals have emotions just like we do. That holds no relevance for psychological studies extropolated from animal to human, but I wanted to point that out.

  8. To quote a song my brother hates:

    Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks. Religion is a smile on a dog.

    I can probably fit the drowning mice somewhere in the “before I get too deep”

    1. Darn Deb…we just are on the same wavelength today!

      I just yesterday heard a podcast between that rock star Ted Neugent with a MMA guy Joe Rogan….his son Is vegan, but he always talks strongly against it, He based his argument almost entirely upon that point versed….vegans kill some animals so veganism cannot be a valid philosophy or moral view….
      Both Rogan and Neugent are great hunters and tied into that as a source of popularity and some revenue. Though I consider hunting way better than saran wrapped chicken at Walmart purchased.

      Rock stars…. maybe we can throw the lot of them in with the scientists as Joe mentions with the coconut water. Seems we could spare even more mice ;)

      1. ‘vegans kill some animals so veganism cannot be a valid philosophy or moral view’

        That’s an idiotic argument of course. Just turn it around and consider that meat eaters eat the meat of many animals but won’t eat the meat of some animals, like other humans or rats or cockroaches, so meat eating cannot be a valid philosophy or moral view.

        1. Meat eating…..I think it is a personal decision. I can’t say a person bad or wrong for doing it. I would just say I will not. Peoples that eat it may have better aims and results with compassion in other ways than I do.. So who is to say who is better?

          Not me. Does not in any way make sense to me but that is not really a judgement. My concern with no meat is morality. To say it is not or I cannot do that for some jacked up logical rational makes no sense as well. Guys like Ted Neugent seem very upset we choose this thing.

          Funny how his son is one of us.

          1. “I think it is a personal decision.” The simple logic is that a decision or choice stops being a personal decision or choice when there are victims involved.

            From a completey logical view point, the decision for us to consume another life when unnecessary is unethical.

  9. Thank you, Dr. Greger, for exposing yet another weak link in these commercially-convenient references in the name of science.

    I heard a TED Talk over the weekend from David McCandless, who specializes in presenting data in easily understood graphic formats, and thought about your site. One of his projects is an app called Snake Oil, which presents the strength of evidence available to support various health claims: http://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-scientific-evidence-for-nutritional-supplements-vizsweet/, though it looks like his data is limited compared to yours.

    Maybe this could be a partnership opportunity for the 2 of your organizations? I don’t always have time to read all of your articles or watch your videos though I would like to! A tool like this could offer a convenient reference for people like me to make optimal nutritional and lifestyle choices.

    For this reason, I love your Daily Dozen card. Just genius! https://nutritionfacts.org/app/uploads/2018/03/metric.png

  10. And to think that when first world humans swim to exhaustion, they are not depressed–they’re exhilarated at how far they could go this time. But I suppose we could throw humans into a water tower without an inside ladder (which as I understand it, is required) and see how long they can stay afloat. But that would be ethically wrong, I guess, and that’s where I intended to go with this.

    1. Well Barb I cannot attest to this myself as I did not personally participate.
      I have heard in navy boot camp it was expected as a sailor they did indeed have to know how to swim. How to best get them to learn this, if they had no experience….well they had them all in a large pool, the boots or recruits, the pool 8 ft deep or so, and had the Drill Instructor prod away from the sides of the pool with a poll, any who would grab hold to it. It was a part of the training.

      Customarily all would then know how to stay above water if nothing else. I guess it was effective. Years ago, I doubt they do it now. I suspect it is true but again I did not participate in it.
      By my take this ethical leap may be not so great a one endeavored.

      1. Still, ron, it’s a far cry from being thrown in a water chamber just so others can watch you srtuggle for life and die. Not to mention the horrors of their existence previous to this.

  11. Wow, eye opening. Science got stuck on a bad protocol for which animals are suffering and little is learned. Have you all considered writing an editorial for one of the scientific journals?

  12. It amazes me how scientists can be, they sometimes appear to be more like lemmings, than explorers. Civil libertarians would probably be up in arms, but if they wanted to test the effects of different foods on depression-why not feed them to real human prisoners, whom, one would think, all suffer from some degree of depression.Changing their diets to include foods unfamiliar to them would probably be seen as torture, but real torture of animals is perfectly acceptable.

    1. Hah…reminds me. In one state in the North east the typical response to a inmate who causes trouble is to put them in isolation and feed them a meatloaf type product which the inmates hate as it is not meat being vegetarian.
      It serves as disincentive to bad behavior they say.

      1. Probably Vermont…darn socialists, are inclined to do such things…legalized marijuana for recreation use last week.
        Imagine the removal of a thing of violence produced, meat, to actually propel the notion of less violence among human

        Perposterous darn commies.
        Why they did it though….. other than aversion which is my guess the why…was not expounded upon.
        Noticing years ago fish, though little related to human in body,..become more aggressive to eachother when fed brine shrimp a live food as opposed to algy and others not. A study done in water and tanks likely which may actual produce some animal result we may in some manner use as opposed to this nonsense of coconut water.

  13. This is awful. :-( I use coconut water every day, and was quite interested in the results…but abruptly lost interest a little ways in due to the atrocious animal cruelty used in this study. Why isn’t this illegal?

    1. Not current on it, but do think animal testing for safety was a requirement. it may be still so I just have not followed it…for patented drug sale test prior to approval.
      Following a incident in which a cough syrup did include the agent involved in antifreeze included by a well intentioned but faulted scientist, who also to my dim recollection killed himself when it was found to have killed many and injured many more.
      There was no legal penalty back in that day.

      And lawsuits also had little success. At that same time, the creator of the circumstance that killed scores of young women in a fire, locking the doors to prevent theft, had no personal nor legal negative result of that. He went on to found another factory of the same sort. Eventually public outcry necessitated fire laws.
      So it is with this, they created animal testing law, FDA, to protect human in the beginning.

      1. I think the FDA does allow now a exception in practice to animal testing. A system to produce the same effect of proven safety excepting animal testing is allowed. But am not current perhaps they devolved the requirement entirely, but it once was required by law essentially, FDA practice requirement.

  14. If earth scientists are correct, we’ll have some great opportunities for studying depression in a few decades as humans, in places like Kiribati (Micronesia), have their homes inundated with water as climate change continues. Per the National Geographic, “The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says we can expect the oceans to rise between 11 and 38 inches (28 to 98 centimeters) by 2100, enough to swamp many of the cities along the U.S. East Coast. More dire estimates, including a complete meltdown of the Greenland ice sheet, place sea level rise to 23 feet (7 meters), enough to submerge London.”

    Oh Joy! What Studies there’ll be! The ruling class can fund some great studies from their gated retreats, above the flood.

    1. Due to deep water ocean flow streams all levels will not rise equally. The northeast US is expected due to surprisingly the destruction of ice cover in the Antarctic and loss of ice in Greenland, to receive a inordinate amount of ocean level rise. It will disrupt deep ocean stream flow which will allow the waters to back up connected to reduction in gulf stream flow.

      So it is a bit poetic justice as we create so much carbon and it is again currently worked against, this science ,but those in the northeast may be most depressed.

        1. Or in brief mainly NOAA stuff…
          “February 22, 2017, Wakefield – The Rhode Island Coastal Resources Management Council (CRMC) will be using the latest global sea level rise (SLR) projections from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) that anticipate a worst-case scenario of eight (8) feet (2.5 meters) by 2100. Unfortunately the Northeast Region will experience an additional 1 to 3 feet of relative SLR above the global projection due to several factors.
          Sea levels in the Northeast region, as well as some other areas in the country, will rise significantly faster than the global average, according to a recent report from NOAA. See: https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/publications/techrpt83_Global_and_Regional_SLR_Scenarios_for_the_US_final.pdf . Robert E. Kopp, an associate professor at Rutgers University’s Department of Earth and Planetary Science, coauthored the report, which details six scenarios intended to help decision makers plan for the future at both a regional and national level.”

          1. Funny they will deny it completely politically…… but I had occasion to review documents from the worst place of the worst nation in the heart of oil country….. Matagorda Texas refineries visable virtually everywhere on a visit….and found their emergency response plan(produced in the Bush not Obama era) as regards future events fully factored in ocean level rise.
            Seems they can say what they say but push comes to shove they know fully well in their heart of hearts what is coming their way.

  15. Great way to keep potential serial killers off the streets huh? Makes me sick. And depressed, but hold the coconut water thanks.

  16. These kind of crappy animal studies continue to be a black mark on legitimate research as yet again we see some mouse study equated to the effects on humans.

    Say, when is the last time Dr. Greger said something good about coconuts? Seems there is a problem with just about every coconut component.

  17. I was too upset by the live animal experiment to listen any further. How is that sort of abuse ever legal? I hope someone takes this further.

    1. Well G, to put this in perspective you may care to go take some pictures of heinous animal abuse at pig slaughter houses, some day and ask…. how can that be illegal….not the heinous practices, but the picture taking, which are by law quite illegal in some states to take. As it may hurt their business interest.

      Corporation are human you know as per citizens united decision. So they have rights which at times humans seemingly may not endeavor.

        1. Tom Hartman and ABC…
          “ALEC is now parading around bills in six states that would make it a crime to film animal abuse at factory farms, or lie on job applications in order to get a job in a factory farm with the goal of taking pictures. All of this is to stop animal rights activists who infiltrate slaughterhouses to expose their deplorable conditions.
          The bill proposals pushed by ALEC require all evidence of animal abuse at factory farms be turned over to law enforcement authorities within 48 hours, or those who took the pictures face a financial penalty.
          The proposals also make it a crime to lie on slaughterhouse job applications, which activists commonly do in order to get documentation of animal abuse.
          Right now, according to the Associated Press, the bills to block animal rights activists are under consideration in California, Nebraska, Tennessee, Indiana, Arkansas and Pennsylvania.
          Three other states – New Mexico, Wyoming and New Hampshire – have already rejected similar bills this year.
          And several states already have laws similar to what ALEC is currently pushing. Utah has a law that bans unauthorized photography in farms, and Iowa has a law that makes it a crime to lie to gain access to a farm’s staff”.

          2015 that I think one law passed did fail on appeal to be constitutional but only in one state.

          1. Which is in itself by my read…depressing.
            Can conduct not well thought of a individual, government or any group, performed and producing harm not be so?
            Study that perhaps. Vietnam soldiers just doing their jobs great heros all, and dear to us…but is the circumstance of the war(a completely unjust thing that killed millions of innocent civilians) not related to the problems those who returned did so suffer?. Me thinking world war 2 it was not so prelevent that thing of PTSD. And no I do not think it is as we did not know of it world war one first producing the term battle shock or shell shocked.

            1. Thinking….. is it the conduct itself which causes our depression in this thing?.
              I think I find a thing of animal cruelty in Manchuria perhaps,(just as a hypothetical) a at times primitive people doing primitive things in historical ways…some of which we may think torturous and unnecessary…not really depressing though I find it distasteful.

              But this thing is what we do, and it is as most here study these things of nutrition, very close to us, and then particularly productive of depression seemingly(of short duration).
              Is it we see us in the scientists action or is it we see a other?
              Proposing relatedly, then there may be a aspect to depression even in greater scope than that implies, a thought thing, not found in animal study..
              Making animal study in this useless which I think it is. It can only be endeavored to sell a thing, as substance for that.

                1. Yes, it technically is depressing, but I just ate black beans and rice and find it hard to get genuinely depressed anymore.

                  So is it the black beans and rice or being post-menopausal or just that I have lived long enough to not be surprised by anything?

                  I think depression comes from the not being able to change things and I have the sense that things can be changed.

                  1. Ron,

                    I have a sense of humor about it all, but I have been home watching my dog bravely and sweetly facing hemangiosarcoma and I have been watching a PBS show on genealogies and all of the stories had ties to slavery and I ended up crying. Wrong and abusive is wrong and abusive in every generation and it is depressing that people think that way and do those things.

                    I don’t understand it. I never will understand it.

                    1. This place is demon run. Prayer and supplication I will not give a demon no matter how strong he is. .
                      He is all powerful as they say, I know he is. they are right in that….All things end, and all changes and all pass. His demise will be far sadder than mine..I don’t call for it for him nor wish him any harm, I can not do such things…..but I will tell him it ends and in his consideration of time….it is right around the door.
                      He wants life everlasting it is always on his mind and he offers it to others…even he can not partake that thing….which is why it is all his concern that thing. Why he talks so much of this thing and his heaven and his offer of everlasting life, in his domain.Why he thinks he may offer that thing when he may not, all changes always it is as things are.Why he wants the prayer and adoration and all the rest he thinks it will help him…it will not.
                      And it is coming for him, this place will devolve.His place will devolve.

                      He comes for me I know what is coming. His demise he knows not what is coming.

                      We cannot escape this hell with self action or self destruction., We must simply wait it out and do what we can to help others he harms.
                      It is our nature to do so and we cannot devolve our nature. It is our nature to feel compassion for all…it is only he confounds us and bends us this way and that. But he is a demon and small then, he is, in the total of things demons great power but always a thing of thought amiss.. He does not know the total of things. he knows his power only and thinks it great. It is more in that regard than ours, but we may know this thing he refuses….all passes and change is all.
                      That knowledge he cannot abide. I may and others may as well……which means we know and he does not. For all his strength he knows not what we may….perhaps why in his heart of hearts he makes this place so evil. It must hurt him so, much power and knowing not a thing, we, with no power know. I pity him. Demons do not like humans always.

                      He knows not with each passing demon day….it is ending for him. I wish I could help him but cannot.
                      I will always understand it. The horror of our plight is why we refuse this knowledge. WE live human we harm…it is hell. We must endure it to conquer it. No short cut is available out this place. Helping as most we can in hell is all we can. No heaven awaits no hell…it is just his grasp will end. Light awaits us. The word they say was first it will be no more. In the end to see to witness to watch that is all.

                      It is truly sad when gods and demon die. But they do. When we go it is as a passing wind blows out north or south here or there, like light in a sky, small there is not a thing of worry or care. He will be as a mountain crumbling to the seas, a thing to it which all can watch and marvel. Sadder their demise far more than ours, ours is not.

                      I do not pray but if I did that thing for this demon who is this place, I would pray for him…he knows not what is to come. The fault of demons always, why they are not gods is that. They do not know it all only their power which is great. It passes all passes.
                      I am sorry you say this…”I don’t understand it. I never will understand it” It is quite clear for me.

                      This is hell but do not try to self escape it, it must be endured and helping others it is our only way. We pass it will seem when we do a bolt of lightening in the sky so short. So we are lucky in that human.
                      Speaking plainly.We cannot help really much at all, it is the nature of this hell, this type we are in. All we may do is try and not think it is us deficient It is the place, we are not able to help is the tendency of it. It is not us we are neutral in that. Try to help we hope we may….but this place we rarely can. This horrorshow has nuance to it and is with complexity wrought.

                      I take it not to heart, so short it is like a dream, of no concern in the end as we do only what we can and may.

                    2. Our kind, human, is neutral, thus able to be influenced if we know not of his presence. He does his thing… so we do evil.

                      Simple really, the key is knowing where we are and who he is… so we must remain with eyes wide open to do not evil as well.
                      Harm it is not our nature. Only blinded or bent we may do it.. WE may know him by his actions and conduct only.We can’t surmise the minds of god nor demon being human. So the tell is always in his actions.

  18. The whole time i was expecting something like: dehydration = depressed stated of mind. Hydration = antidepressant. Drink more water = drink more coconut water = antidepressant.

    And then came the animal abuse… I’m confused.

    1. Why are you confused? He’s addressing a claim based on a ridiculously stupid study and medical torture to do it and exposing this kind of senseless idiocy causing both horrific torture and insanely poor science. I am grateful for this being called out and brought to light.
      And showing us the bad science, helps us learn and understand real science.

  19. A video to the inverse from some mice(modest ones) on depression and suicide called edit the sad parts out….
    It is not for the faint of heart including many shows of actual suicides on the golden gate bridge…hopefully this translates to this site but if not just quary modest mouser who made the video….
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49Gz0Jfp-jI

    1. From the end of the video…national suicide prevention lifeline
      suicidepreventionlifeline.org
      1-800-273-talk, 8255.

      1. Any thing on depression may include some in depressive crisis who are stimulated by the subject matter to respond and view….. and I do think the mention of the national suicide prevention lifeline should be added.

    2. The guy at about 2:30 into the video, is almost superhumanly strong, pulling what is probably a 110 pound at least girl, up and over the rail with one hand seemingly effortlessly while holding onto his camera.
      I found that curious but it is of course aside the topic.
      But suicide is the worst consequence of depression, would that it be very rare, it seems not. Sweeping it under the rug little serves us.

    3. Hard to know what to say.

      I know several people who killed themselves. A few of them because of health things like Cancer and some because of unrequited relationships and a few i think it was addiction related. One of my co-workers decades ago used to go up bridges and try to get the courage to jump off, but never did.

      My friends co-workers are younger women from the inner city and one of them had a “baby daddy” who jumped onto the highway. More than one of them had “baby daddy’s” kill themselves.
      Inner city males have a lot of stress and a lot of hopelessness and so little education and no jobs and drug selling leads to prison, prison cycles out to no job agsin. No job again leads to things like stealing. It is so painful that there weren’t better support systems.

  20. I’ve been aware of these types of inhumane studies for decades and it never ceases to amaze me how cruel the human species can be. There should definitely be laws against this by now!

    1. WFPB antiinflammatory no oil. You need to unclog your arteries and get rid of inflammation. Dr Greger said that clogged arteries press on nerves. He has videos on that process and on antiinflammatory spices, like turmeric. I think Rosemary might have been one. I forget.

      Also check for TMJ and get a mouth piece from a dentist. Parkinsons can be caused by TMJ pressing on the trigeminal nerve.

      1. My uncle had trigeminal neuralgia related to brain cancer and the doctors threw every pain meds at him and none of the expensive famous pain meds worked, but Methadone worked wonders.

        Plus, it was so inexpensive that it was something like $7 out of pocket and he never went into the donut hole ever agsin. It stays in the body a very long time. A zillion times more effective than OxyContin and Dilauded and Morphine and Trileptsl and Neurontin and everything else they tried. Trileptsl and neurontin gave him seizures which stopped when he stopped taking them.
        Lyrica does help some, but Methadone was the godsend med.

        1. My uncle was prescribed Methadone when I took him to a Pain Clinic and I am going to recommend going to a Pain Clinic.

          He was on such high doses of OxyContin and had emergency Oxycodone that the pharmacy kept threatening to not fill the prescriptions, because they thought he was a drug addict and he had panic attacks when he would get to half a bottle and was taking extra, because it wasn’t managing the pain.

          I didn’t even know if there was anything at all a Pain Clinic could do and I didn’t know if he could afford it, because his pain meds were thousands per month. When he started he wasn’t on Medicare D and when he got on that he hit the Donut Hole almost immediately and they sent a letter about the next emergency level and threatened that eventually they wouldn’t pay any of it at all and those threats came the first year into it.

          I was terrified the night he changed to Methadone, but there was no transition at all.

          He never had an addiction symptom again and didn’t wake up panicking and never took an extra pill again. In fact, he often would skip dosages and the pain clinic doctor said that it lasts long enough in his system that it is okay for him to skip dosrs. He never went up in how much he needed versus the OxyContin he never stopped going up. His constipation got more manageable.

          He often just took one a day.

          I say all this to you, because that is a crazy making pain is what they say and I pray for God to guide you to a solution.

          Going off saturated fat and lowered inch your cholesterol as much as possible is what might help the most.

    2. Hello Pia, thanks for your comment.
      Unfortunately, there is not much research about the relationship between food/diet and trigeminal neuralgia. There’s no a single and recent on PubMed about this topic. However, the Facial Pain Association does have some guidelines or recommendations about foods that are safe and other ones that might trigger symptoms. Perhaps this can be of help!

      http://fpa-support.org/pain-triggering-and-pain-safe-foods/

  21. Thanks, Dr. Greger, for your kindness to animals and for speaking up for them. The cruelty of humans certainly is disquieting, to say the least. Thanks for all your efforts and for all that you do. Speaking up in defense of animals is never a wasted effort – it’s the most important thing to do – and ultimately it will help them. Bless you.

  22. All of these “scientists” demonically torturing animals in these and other ways are not worthy of their title; they’re not even worthy of breath.
    They should all be imprisooned and charged for medical torture, to say the least. Worse than worthless monsters, that’s what and who they really are.

  23. To add, apart from these “studies” being absolutely moronic, if they insist on doing them, they should at least be human studies so we know if might die slower given these foods and drink, I’d be perfectly ok if they chose to do some chamber or force swimming experiments on themselves.

  24. Bye, awesome Monty Python reference!

    Once again, I commend you on bringing to light a subject that desperately needs to be.

        1. Of course it was ron ;)
          I’d venture to same many hundred thousand take it every day.
          And every day by my figures about 400 or so come down with salmonella by eggs and it is naturally present in every one in 3500 eggs. Seems not much, but we eat a enormous amount of eggs in total each day. Eggs are one of the largest sources by singular cause probably largest of salmonella poisoning always.

          And kratom has produced 100 some odd cases since april. And most probably like with contamined things like peanut butter, this or that…it was one batch they have recalled.

          This should be as clear as the noses on our faces…the FDA will use any excuse to try to make this stuff illegal. Why…because it directly competes with a drug they have now referenced in opioid legislation and made it easily prescribed (despite scanty evidence it will help) and kratom can provide in many the same effect, with a fraction of the cost, and is independent of the system, as it is bought over the counter.

          What they are doing is criminal, like this animal abuse, should be, but is not. Our societies perspectives on things is way out of whack.
          One new prescribed drug to fight the addiction of another prescribed drug creation of a problem….a win win for big pharma with the FDA in the side car helping along.
          Don’t use the stuff, I have no addiction, no chronic pain, but hundreds of thousands do everyday and no salmonella ever till april and then 100 cases only.Go to any smoke shop(the stuff is ingested not smoked) and it is on sale.

          What a comedy. One intenet blogging guy, the most popular on the internet, Joe Rogan, has a knee injury just this past week…went on his show and stated in discussion he was using it at this time for the injury(he does mixed martial arts). seems no salmonella there. And the guy cares about his health a fitness fanatic….and his viewership any show, several million..so keep plugging along FDA we will as well. Kyle Kalinsky another large large following his political, ……kratom for other reasons pretty much daily no adverse affects known, he podcasts many hours daily and has for years.

          Let us compare him to Rush Limbaugh, functionally deaf from opioids and found criminal of forging prescriptions for it totally addicted at one time.

          Hopefully through people like Rogan Kalinsky….the FDA will this time be thwarted in their evil thing.
          .It is all for the money and control by big pharma….so sad and evil.

          Where is any egg recall? Where is any chicken recall, the second most popular cause of salmonella? Kept quiet and never mentioned as the egg/chicken industry wants it so.

          Kratom 100 cases in 3 months as opposed to 400 per day per eggs and kratom is public enemy number one.
          Tragic comedy.

          Want to see abuse of animal that makes this video here pale by comparison……… go to any factory farm of chicken or drive behind any chicken truck in the south to see those on the inside the crates inside manychicken suffocating to death despite the truck being in the open air.

          This place is just totally out of what this America…why not criminal that, we cannot even film the abuse..it is often illegal to do so.
          No make kratom illegal they want…a thing that needs study but is not, because they hate it so.
          Only in America.
          Hey FDA another state Vermont just went pot legal even Oklahoma now declared medical pot legal…stick that in your craw you evil pieces of garbage.

          1. The more I see them, the industry and the FDA do evil…is the more I firmly support veganism. I can not make them keep kratom legal….I can refuse the eggs and other filth they firmly endorse as safe and even good for us.
            Any thinking person it is not enough to just write a letter or do this or that…this is a war they do evil we must not eat their filth.
            They sell things like eggs by not mentioning the salmonella threat…..it is no accident. And eggs are harm as chickens in factory farm they are as in this video…tragic they are.

            Wake up and fight them. It is not enough to write a letter..be vegan it kills the evil

            1. Deep in the far reaches of google search, underneath this and that and various things extolling the great health benefit of eggs(which the CDC firmly does on their site…one may find this, which understates the problem but does admit to it.
              Then compare this to kratom…
              Fresh eggs, even those with clean, uncracked shells, may contain bacteria called Salmonella that can cause foodborne illness, often called “food poisoning.” The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) estimates that 79,000 cases of foodborne illness and 30 deaths each year are caused by eating eggs contaminated with Salmonella”

              AS opposed to 100 illnesses from kratom.79,000……you need to firmly wake up to what is going on.

              1. That is indeed cut and pasted from their own website…the problem is how to get to it with a google search,and the why it is never mentioned in mass American media…seems a significant health problem to me,,,,CDC…first line on their thing on eggs an salmonella..how nutritious and good eggs are….I could not make this stuff up it is so corrupt.

                CDC center for disease control who are supposed to help us not get them not extolling the great benefits of consumption of things that will firmly make us sick.

                1. CDC cut and paste again first line on their thing on salmonella and eggs..” Eggs are one of nature’s most nutritious and economical foods. But you must take special care when handling and preparing fresh eggs and egg products to avoid foodborne illness, also known as food poisoning.”

                  And good luck with finding the prelevence of it in any year or on any given day….think you may care to know how common is a thing if you want to not get it…seems so.
                  Miss that they do…. but found probably on page 432 of some auxiliary information so they can say…yes we do mention that right here….
                  This place is corrupt in forms humanity has probably never before seen.

        2. The autocorrect on the iPhone is ridiculously annoying. I think it’s this way on all smart phones. My aunt once texted me she had made really good wheat free pancakes (I think it was pancakes), but instead it sent “I made really good weed pancakes.” At least it’s amusing sometimes. But an edit button would help here, as would having more patience so as to proof read.

          1. I so agree about an edit button. Would it be a big deal for NutritionFacts.org. to install such a thing? Expensive or whatever?

            I wonder what weed pancakes would taste like. :-D

            1. Haha, I kinda wonder that too. And yeah, they used to have an edit button I think… And a like button! Which as you know, I miss. I liked to “like” comments.

              1. I am pretty sure the like function was hacked and every time you allow a new access like a edit feature you allow more of that. Reader supported news had that same type like function and it was hacked daily before the election..

                Back in the day I was able to take down entire sites at will if I wanted(but of course I never did).
                The reason a site crashes like some sites used to do several times a week( the weather underground was down due to climate change stuff some did not want out there) is to much easy access.

                This place has natural enemies and they do not play fair. The reason why lots of places are not taken down is simply because no one wants to.

                So I am glad they limit things. Could pay a lot of bucks to get hack proof I guess but even the best get hacked.

    1. Considering this video I never really did use it at all but do find it in the occasional almond milk…I will now on general purposes avoid it…this is evil stuff…F them.
      The industry sucks they allow this stuff to go on. Who needs it?

      1. I know you all mean well write congress this and that make it illegal. The political person you may reach all they care about is donation to campaign and if the other side wants to stop a thing they will by donation to campaign for reelection stop you in that fashon. Easily for little cost, they are bought cheap.

        The companies, to stop them boycott makes the most sense, and is most easy. Stop buying this thing that produces evil. Yes innocents loose jobs in the interim and this and that, but with time the industry stops doing it as it hurts sales..so they stop. Same as they stop with time supporting with adds those shows on media who support the KKK and things. We have to boycott to stop them. They will not just threatened with a politican or political action.

        They are in the pocket easily bought if they want to. Such is our system after citizens united. You have to know that as well. the why of the new radical politic.

      2. I don’t think it’s coconut water to blame, that isn’t the point. It’s the so-called scientists and they do this for a PLETHORA of products and studies. I’m not even sure if this was funded by anyone in the coconut water industry? I don’t think there’s “big coconut” or anything. Like for example. Harmless Harvest is their own company with their own practices and transparency. The takeaway wasn’t “coconut water is evil” it was that atrocities occur within the scientific community and recited findings are often based on HORRIBLE so-called science.

        1. Media companies are also not evil when they do things like legally give KKK supporters air time..it is legal right? free speech.Draws clicks and money to it.

          Enough people complain about it they do retract content.
          Coconut waters…. seems the video is all about that, specific testing of it. The worst part is about coconut water and depression and the mice.
          Did some element in the community sponsor the testing…who else would fund it…did people just notice a lot of coconut water peoples are not depressed…..I think that is not likely. No one supposes such a thing even remotely. Coconut water and hydration I could see some out of industry study..it is commonly used for that. Depression never.

          Of course it was sponsored… someone there did that. It may not be this company or that, but it is one of them. And the studies themselves may not show direct influence most of the tobacco studies to that favor, back in that day said the same…no conflict.
          So they all brunt the blame when we don’t purchase their stuff… I say oh well
          . They have to self police the industry so they will not send customers out the door.
          Part of that is not producing science with overt harm to animals with little relevance.

          My argument hinges on that one basic fact….who else could provide large amounts of money to perform such a study. Entire labs scientists the animal providers the controls necessary…that stuff does not come cheap it is not grad student doing it for their doctor’s degree completion. Those are inevitably academic studies of no cost. This is high cost.

          Someone paid for this and no one else would study it…why would they?

          So it is one of them it has to be .And they have to stop that right now. Good luck with legislation to outlaw things like this. For various reasons which I have stated, that will never happen. They will send you a nice letter saying thank you and your representative will now look at it. In fact the industry push back sees those who cite abuse are often demonized and at threat of libel if not completely performing illegal activity by just making the record of it.

          So do that it will not hurt but do this as well…stop buying their C it provides little benefit anyway. Only if one had a med condition of low potassium and could not afford supplements would that make sense…. coconut water.Not much benefit to it. Coconuts a little perhaps.

          1. Many here are commenting from a uninformed viewpoint… no offense. The FDA requires animal testing of drugs before approval by law which identifies that as responsibility and they comply with few exceptions.
            This video about coconut water is about testing exceptional to that, it is not a drug but a common substance no so animal testing is required by law..

            From the FDA website..
            “There are still many areas where animal testing is necessary and non-animal testing is not yet a scientifically valid and available option. However, FDA has supported efforts to reduce animal testing. In addition, FDA has research and development efforts underway to reduce the need for animal testing and to work toward replacement of animal testing.
            When animal testing is done to support applications for medical products regulated by FDA, manufacturers or sponsors are required to follow FDA’s regulation, Good Laboratory Practice for Nonclinical Laboratory Studies (21 CFR Part 58). FDA also supports the use of independent animal care and use committees (IACUC) for laboratory studies involving animals.”

            Political double speak for…yes we do and we in fact require it for drugs. The why of animal testing of drugs is in relation to their establishment and various fiascos the drug industry has been involved in over the years.

            Do we need to do that now… probably not is my guess the FDA sucks. But honestly I cannot say definitively no. Maybe Dr Greger can but this video is about optional testing not required by law testing to show effect.
            So it is for marketing interest they do this study…why else would they do it?Why not study any number of other thousand substances that may aid depression. Nothing points to that as remedy coconut water. Coffee I could see a out of field study….it seems to prevent depression. Other things sure…coconut water??? really coconut water for depression??? It has industry or company sponsorship in forms some of which may be quite covert written all over it.

            1. ron, animal testing is WRONG. There is no argument here. Any existing laws requiring it are WRONG and archaic to say the absolute least. I have quotes saved from even vivisectors themselves (renowned ones) admitting that animal tests are unnecessary… I don’t know about any laws saying you have to test drugs on animals (I know there are laws in China that require animal tests for all kinds of things), but I do know that drug companies use animal testing to protect themselves from lawsuits. It’s insane. For example, drug companies have been taken to court and they were not held accountable for the harm their drug caused consumers because they had used animal tests to test the drugs and animal tests were not reliable tests, so they were not found guilty. I realize this makes no sense, but I have found this in my research. True insanity as the world so often is.

              The simple fact is that testing drugs on animals is not only senseless in that they cannot be extrapolated from animal to human, but they’re actually DANGEROUS because they lead to extremely misleading results. In fact, most of the time, animal test findings by drug companies are disregarded because even they know they are useless at best. I wrote something on it a long time ago, I’ll see if I can find it and post it here, but it might be too long to post.

              1. I showed the law. It is in the FDA statement. Their requirement is the word of law. If a company does not comply they simply will not allow the drug.
                Their authority is the word of law enacted by legislation which is legal law. They had good reason in the initial, many drugs produced bad side effects birth defect and such. The FDA was started in relation to a antifreeze in cough syrup scandle. Once it did not exist it was buyer beware.

                They say it is required.. I quoted them that is current.
                For drugs it does not apply to coconut water that is a totally arbitrary unnecessary thing.

                1. Oh I get what you’re saying. Yeah, the law is archaic and the FDA is a joke. And as if it weren’t sick enough, for these “scientists” to torment animals when no law requires it, that’s just another level to an already immensely evil act.

                  1. Here is reference the actual law..it has been added to over the years as regard how the tests are conducted and this and that specific… wikipeida..

                    ” However, in response to the Elixir Sulfanilamide disaster of 1937 in which the eponymous drug killed more than 100 users, the U.S. congress passed laws that required safety testing of drugs on animals before they could be marketed. Other countries enacted similar legislation.[36] In the 1960s, in reaction to the Thalidomide tragedy, further laws were passed requiring safety testing on pregnant animals before a drug can be sold.[37]”

                    Other laws allow the FDA to replace the requirement with non animal testing. Allow being the critical word it may be or not.

              2. I wrote this a few years ago, I have sources saved SOMEWHERE, but I was way worse about that back then. Had I written anything like this recently, the sources would all be linked under what I wrote.

                “Ask the experimenters why they experiment on animals, and the answer is ‘Because the animals are like us.’ Ask the experimenters why it is morally OK to experiment on animals, and the answer is: ‘Because the animals are not like us.’ Animal experimentation rests on a logical contradiction.”
                -Professor Charles R. Magel

                Over the past few years I’ve learned a lot about vivisection (animal testing). I always had the basic knowledge (that society teaches us to ignore), that capturing, enslaving, and tormenting another life no matter how different it looked or seemed is a profound evil. And my beliefs have always unshakably coincided with Mahatma Gandhi’s statement “I abhor vivisection with my whole soul. All the scientific discoveries stained with innocent blood I count as of no consequence.” But only in recent years have I actually learned the facts about this most cruel practice.
                Much of what I learned, I give credit to Pat Dickens and his amazing research he wrote about, some of which can be seen here: http://stonedhogblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/animal-testing-ugly-truth.html
                Though the thought of vivisection had always disturbed me to my very core, I was not prepared to learn the unexpected, shocking truths behind it…
                One of the most shocking things to me, was how dangerously inaccurate animal testing actually is, and how much it in fact, held back medical progress.
                The oldest example of this I can name goes back to the 2nd century A.D. Because of laws prohibiting the dissection of human bodies, vivisection and dissection of animals were used as a means to better understand the human body. Because anatomy differs so greatly from species to species; even between species as closely related as mice and rats, the attempt to understand the human body through the study of various animals, led to centuries of misunderstandings about human anatomy and physiology.
                While we’ve learned enough to know how dangerously unreliable animal testing is and because of this up to 90% of all animal test results are discarded due to the fact that they are inapplicable to humans, the practice still continues as much as it ever did, threatening human life along the way and causing the U.S alone to spend 5 billion dollars on animal tests each year, while the funding for animal experimentation and the number of animals tested on continues to increase.
                One of the simplest examples of how threatening the inaccuracy of animal testing is, is the following result: according to animal test results, lemon juice is a deadly toxin to us where as arsenic, hemlock, and botulin are all safe…. Some other examples: Aspirin kills cats and causes birth defects in rats, mice, guinea pigs, dogs, and monkeys. Penicillin kills guinea pigs but is inactive in rabbits. Morphine acts as a depressant in humans, but stimulates goats, cats, and horses. And sex among lab animals can cause contradictory results.
                Think about those results for a moment… now think about all the drugs put on the market who’s basis of safety and effectiveness were developed and judged through animal testing. Is it any wonder that in the U.S, reactions to medical drugs have become our nation’s fourth biggest killer? In the U.S alone, 106,000 deaths per year are attributed to reactions to medical drugs. While in the UK, an estimated 70,000 people are killed or severely disabled every year by unexpected reactions to drugs, all of which have passed animal tests. The House of Lords questioned why unexpected reactions to drugs (which passed animal tests) kill more people than cancer… Vioxx is a grim example of this continuing problem.
                Vioxx, a drug that was shown to protect the heart of mice, dogs, monkeys, and other lab animals, was linked to heart attacks and strokes in 139,000 humans and ended up killing over 60,000 people.
                It’s been concluded by a German doctors’ congress that 6% of fatal illnesses and 25% of organic illnesses are caused by medicines, all that have been animal tested.
                An entire 61% of birth defects and 88% of still births on record are caused by drugs that were passed safe through animal testing… Go figure, since 70% of drugs which cause human birth defects are safe in pregnant monkeys while thousands of safe products for humans cause birth defects in lab animals, some of which include several vitamins, vegetable oils, drinking waters, etc… And over 97% of 1,000 substances that are shown to be dangerous to lab animals are safe for humans.
                The most astounding aspect to me is that all these easily avoidable tragedies occur through the practice of and dependence on animal testing despite that 95% of drugs passed by animal tests are immediately discarded as either useless or too dangerous to humans. The FDA noted that 92% of all drugs that are declared safe and effective in animal tests immediately fail when tried on humans because they’re dangerous and/or useless. And out of the small percentage that is approved for human use, half of the medications have to be relabeled due to side effects that were not identified in the animal tests. Meanwhile 75% of side effects identified in animals never occur in humans.
                But drugs aren’t the only dangers when it comes to listening to animal test results for the human body. Many life saving treatments were delayed for years because of negative results in vivisection.
                The lifesaving operation for ectopic pregnancy was deayled 40 years because of this.
                The Polio vaccine was delayed 40 years due to results from testing on monkeys. Corneal transplants were delayed for 90 years and blood transfusion for 200 years, all due to vivisection results.
                If it weren’t already recognized that animal tests are irrelevant for humans, so many helpful and life saving drugs and treatments would not have been put on the market, thus, thousands of lives would have been needlessly lost if animal tests were relied upon.
                Some examples of such medicines and treatments include Aspirin, the heart drug Digitalis, Insulin, many cancer treatments, the life saving penicillin, and many more…
                The brilliant Dr. Hadwen states “had animal experiments been relied upon, humanity would have been robbed of this great blessing of anesthesia.” While Sir Alexander Fleming, who discovered penicillin, stated “How fortunate we didn’t have these animal tests in the 1940s, for penicillin would probably have never been granted a license, and probably the whole field of antibiotics might never have been realized.”

                When it comes to cancer research along with other serious diseases, animal tests have done nothing but hold us back in finding a cure.
                For one thing, less than 2% of human illnesses are ever seen in animals. So in order to attempt to study these diseases on various animals to find a cure for humans, they have to artificially induce the illness into an animal that would have never normally contracted the illness.
                As a researcher at PETA put it “Taking a healthy being from a completely different species, artificially inducing a condition that he or she would never normally contract, keeping him or her in an unnatural and distressful environment, and trying to apply the results to naturally occurring diseases in human beings is dubious at best.”
                In 1971, President Nixon signed the Conquest of Cancer act. Since then, through taxes, donations, and private funding, Americans have spent almost 200 billion dollars on cancer research. But because this “research” was focused on animal tests, it’s no surprise that since then, the “war on cancer” in the U.S has become a series of losing battles. More than 500,000 Americans die of caner every year – a 73% increase in the rate since the “war on cancer” began.

                Some insight into the failed and failing vivisection based cancer research…

                Rodents are the animals almost always used in cancer research, however they never get carcinomas, which is the human form of cancer and affects membranes – lung cancer is an example of this and is one of the two most common illnesses in the western world (heart disease is the other which also cannot be reproduced in lab animals). Rodents’ sarcomas affect bone and connecting tissue, these two types of cancers cannot be compared. Yet the majority of cancer research is focused on the vivisection of rodents.
                One of these rodents, rats, are 37% effective in identifying what causes cancer in humans – less use than guessing, the experimenters said “we would have been better off to have tossed a coin.”

                Richad Klausner, the former head of the National Cancer Institute (NCI), has observed “The history of cancer research has been a history of curing cancer in the mouse. We have cured mice of cancer for decades and it simply didn’t work in humans.”
                Studies have found that chemicals that cause cancer in rats only caused cancer in mice 46% of the time…. If extrapolating from rats to mice is such a problem, how can we expect to extrapolate results from various animal to humans? It is insanity…..

                So with all this information, who can be shocked that cancer rates have only increased and continue to rise… Or that the U.S still ranks 49th in the world in life expectancy and second worst in infant mortality in the developed world. While rates of heart disease and strokes have shown slight improvements recently, it’s been speculated that this is due to lifestyle factors such as diet and smoking rather than medical advances.
                And although animal experimenters like to take credit for the improved life expectancy rate since the early 1900s, medical historians report that improved nutrition, sanitation, and other behavioral and environmental factors are the reasons for such improvement.
                Yet all this money continues to go towards vivisection as drug treatment centers, prenatal care programs, community mental health clinics and trauma units continue to suffer closures because they lack sufficient funds.

                The medical field is not the only place to partake in this unspeakable and senseless cruelty. As it turns out (due to the irrelevance no doubt) only 6% of animal testing is done for medical research, the rest is done for cosmetics and household products.
                Obviously the inaccuracies apply to both the medical field as well as cosmetics and other products; as stated before, up to 90% of animal test results are completely discarded for this reason.
                There are no legal requirements that cosmetic and household products be tested on animals. The companies who choose to partake in these senseless habitual acts, do so in order to make commercial claims and/or for liability purposes in case of a lawsuit.
                An example of one company who tested its already natural products on animals through a continual series of painful, barbarous tests is what Unilever did for their tea… Among many other products, Unilever is the world’s largest tea maker which makes Lipton tea and PG Tips tea. The tests were done in order to make commercial claims on the “health benefits” of their tea products.
                These “tests” included infecting piglets with the E. Coli toxin and cutting apart their intestines while still alive, rats having wholes cut in their intestines and being fed tea ingredients through a tube in their throats, and many more horrifying forms of torture to various animals all in the name of advertising tea…
                Thankfully in this case, thanks to the many people who sent out e-mails to Unilever, after PETA and their affiliates from India and Europe flew to London to meet with them, Unilever agreed to stop the cruel and senseless animal experimentation for their tea products.
                That is just a mere fraction of the senseless cruelty that occurs in the world of vivisection from which 33 animals die each second worldwide.
                I wont begin to try and describe the immense torture that happens to these animals. You really have to see it to be able to comprehend even the idea of the horrors that go on in animal testing. There’s many photos and videos that expose this cruelty, and while hard to watch, it is nothing compared to what these animals go through. And if you buy products tested on animals, the least you can do is see what you’re choosing to support… Here’s one clip of a stream of photos exposing what goes on in the labs that might help you get an idea of the torment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRwv_1qaEJk

                The most ironic thing about it all is that there are at least 450 alternative methods that exist to replace animal experiments. Alternate methods are more accurate, relate to our actual species, are safer, cruelty free, and much more modern than the Neanderthal acts of tormenting animals…
                Not only are they safer and actually relevant, but these more advanced and cruelty free methods are also cheaper and faster.
                One of these methods can detect fetus damaging chemicals by 78%…… how absolutely sickening is it that this method exists while 88% of still borns and 61% of babies born with birth defects are caused by drugs that were passed through animal testing.
                And that is just one of many of the highly advanced and sophisticated methods that are available today. They have everything now from human simulators to actually working with human cells and can even work on human cancer cells taken by biopsy during surgery. This is where the billions being spent on vivisection should be going…
                Animal experiments don’t persist because they’re the best available science; they persist because of experimenters’ personal biases and archaic traditions.

                You don’t even need to look to these and other hard facts to tell you that animal experimentation is completely unnecessary and irrelevant, you can just ask the defenders of vivisection themselves…
                When the director of the Research Defense Society (which exists to defend vivisection) was asked if medical progress could be achieved without animal use, his written response was “I am sure it could be.”
                When Procter & Gamble used an artificial musk despite it failing the animal tests which caused tumors in mice, they said the animal test results were “of little relevance for humans” yet they continue to test on animals…
                When attempts were made to sue the manufacturers of the drug Surgam, the attempts failed due to the testimony of medical experts that said “data from animals could not be extrapolated safely to patients.”
                Similarly, when the manufacturers of Thalidomide were being tried, they were acquitted after numerous experts agreed that animal tests could not be relied on for human medicine.
                And despite many noble prizes being awarded to vivisectors, only 45% agree that animal experiments are crucial.
                At this time there are at least 50 drugs on the market which cause cancer in laboratory animals. This is allowed because it is admitted that animal tests are not relevant.
                Another interesting fact that I came across on the topic of vivisection is that it was strongly influenced by the human testing labs from the Nazi and Japanese concentration camps.
                What happened on these testing sites is now considered examples of medical torture. But despite the seeming disgust that society and the U.S nation as a whole (along with other nations) shares of these atrocities that occurred on the human testing sites, as the war ended American soldiers along with soldiers from other countries were ordered to collect the documents and results to take back to their government as “valuable insights into medical testing.”
                The governments’ interest in the results of these hideous acts were so serious that during the Nuremberg trials, the “doctors” who inflicted this torture, were not only uncondemned, but were rewarded with job positions in the U.S and other countries to continue their testing, only this time on animals…
                Someone once argued that the human tests that occurred in the concentration camps are unchangeable events, so we might as well benefit from them… but I say they are in fact not unchangeable in the least. We can change these cruel events by not adopting them now and choosing not to continue their sick practice.
                In so many ways our society is no better than the Nazis we all hate, our governments just learned to hide it better.
                But once we learn the truth about these atrocities, we have the freedom to choose whether we want to partake in them or not. Buying cruelty free products is one of the most important aspects in ending the torture as we vote every time we buy.
                While there’s an overwhelming amount of products out there that test on animals, there’s also many products that don’t. There are plenty of places you can go on the internet to find products that do and do not test on animals. Here is one place that can help you do that…
                http://www.peta.org/living/beauty-and-personal-care/companies/default.aspx
                You can also check the labels on products as most products that do not test on animals will be labeled as “cruelty free” or “not tested on animals”.
                It can seem overwhelming at first because most of us were born into this convenience worshiping society that something so big as learning about the products we buy can sound like a mundane and consuming task, but once you get started it’s really not that big of a deal and you only feel better for it. And because most organic and truly natural products do not test on animals, it’s another benefit that switching to cruelty free can lead to switching to products that are safer and better for you and your family as well as the environment, which is better for everyone…
                Keep in mind that if you’re researching a company to see if they test on animals, make sure you look to outside investigative sources and not solely what the company themselves have to say about it as there are loopholes a company can go through in order to simply CLAIM they don’t test on animals when in actuality they do, they could either just go through a different lab or test ingredients as opposed to a finished product on animals. L’Oreal is a notorious example of this.

                1. Seems by that it is not necessary and may be counterproductive. I hold that opinion but am not qualified to defend it. So it remains a personal opinion.

                  Most simply do not know it is a requirement of law to animal test or provide proven nonanimal test of equilivency.
                  In many areas the tests simply have not been done. 750,000 animals are tested on usually to death in lethal toxic dose necessity…each year. FDA requires testing that shows at what dose this or that drug will kill..so they put it on till they die.

                  1. Given the facts and collective evidence, it can safely be said that animal testing is at its best, unnecessary. Even the majority of vivisectors agree on this. But even if animal tests were remotely accurate or even if they were accurate 100% of the time, these tests would be no more acceptable than it would be to take me or you or our families and enslave, torture, and kill us or them in the name of medical research.

    1. Monkeys are pretty expensive. Dogs used for medical training in labs which the hospitals used to assist in the training…dogs were so cheap and easy. Intubation was always practiced on dogs for years and years. They kept them barely alive by sedation then when the training was done, a dog was intubated many times in the training many of them being set up in a row on tables each med student getting a shot at it ….
      After the dogs were killed by standard practice at the local pound.

      Is it still done..I honestly I don’t know I guess probably not. I had one friend who refused to do that and back in that day had to drop out of the training program as they would not allow her that. By my guess most now would refuse it But I don’t know.

      All sorts of evils are going on in our name. Any visit to a pig slaughter house would show things we thing torturing to dogs done on pigs. They are the same in intelligence pigs and dogs.

      1. That friend they later accommodated and she did go on to successfully complete training and as to intubation….was quite good at it. To intubate is a specialist requirement in hospital commonly, a respiratory specialist will intubate you prior to surgery when sedation is required, but in a emergency context it is required to perform often. Loss of consciousness the airway must be protected and intubation serves that.

        1. About ten states including NM allow you the option of opting out when in medical training due to these concerns….all the others do not. To update.

          Do it or go elsewhere or not continue.

    2. It’s unbearable. But what about the mice? It’s horrible what they do to all of these animals, every single one. I actually rescued a mouse being sold as a “feeding mouse” for snakes, she was just a tiny baby and they had her piled up on dusty shelves in a filthy cage packed to the brim with litter, no food or water to be seen. She was so incredibly intelligent, social, loving, and loyal! I would be amazing when I watched how she would build and design tunnels leading to her water bottle, leading to this area and that. She’d even tear apart the toilet paper rolls I’d give her, and use them to build up walls so that her tunnels would hold structure! She would get excited when you went to spend time with her and used to love it if you ran your hand along side her as she was on her wheel like you were playing. I could take her outside with me and she would just walk along side me and explore, she never tried to run off (I’m sure a male would have if he had caught the scent of a female, on the other hand lol). She was just the sweetest little thing. Rats, too. Getting to know the tiniest little animals, it’s so easy to become amazed at them showing that it isn’t size that makes one worthy of life or deems one as an emotional being or that measures one’s intelligence.

      In regards to suffering, a mouse might as well be a dog, a dog might as well be a monkey, a monkey might as well be a human.

      1. If they had anal and urinal control we all would have them as pets, but they do not. They poop where they eat generally.Some reason for that probably evolutionally related to cats and toxioplasmosis is my guess.

        1. Chimps make very poor pets as is found out occasionally. Overall in the wild up to 10% of their diet comes from meat usually monkeys…..They are quite able and adept at predation with their immense strength and very large teeth…totally in the inverse by body type characteristic to us. Which is why I claim our recent history excepted meat was not our diet except rarely with very small animals come upon..

          .. www-bcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html

            1. I set up camp once in the wilderness a place no human had seen in probably decades. Next to my tent was a small mouse hole. The mouse, seeing me looking at it appeared upset and set about putting a twig or two in front of the hole to prevent my looking.

              It had to know I could see I,t had seen it…it was as if it thought me rude….I found that comical. Unfortunately due to global warming and drought which does not exist, they say…. I cannot go anywhere in NM due to fire danger it is all closed down forest wise. Which in most places here has never happened so greatly before.

              1. Honestly I am no purist in this though. I kill ten or so mice each year that invade my personal living space. Hantavirus and plague are both common where I live, I simply cannot allow them.
                And non killing things are not effective. I have lived with them 30 years or so mostly they do not invade. Rabbits now are everywhere near my house….but no harm I leave them alone. They seek dog and fence to protect from coyotes… However a visit by bear today and hawks continually circulating and stopping to get water put out…. I expect their safety may be overthought. I have water for bear/coyote but it is far in the woods so they will not habit form to human.
                A beautiful gold colored bear, never seen that, small seven months or so almost a cub..

  25. Sorry misspelling.. drugs are required by the FDA in most cases to be tested on animals prior to approval. Common substances no, nothing requires a common thing considered safe for consumption, to be tested on animal. Animal testing is used to show proven result in study, then applied to human as it seems to show it helps human….when likely it does not. But it is always to market a substance for this or that reason invariably the animal study.
    It shows help with animal they send it over as bound to help human in media. It is not usually the case.

    Drugs, most of them… they will not release them approved without animal testing for safety. Is that called for ….honestly I can not say. I think not but it is only a personal opinion.

  26. “they poop where they eat” that is not true. I’ve had mice and rats and they never went to the bathroom where they ate. In fact, I know that rats are often able to be litter trained! The problem with un-neutered male rats is that might “mark” an area by peeing. But my rat actually on his own accord, picked a corner to use soley for going to the bathroom (he had a large double story cage that I always left open in a large “playpen” type area so he could have lots of space).

    I am not ok with the breeding of animals for pets, in any case, it needs to stop and in the meantime, we need to adopt and take care of the ones who need us and stop breeding and selling them like objects to have.

    1. Nah depends on the type mouse, if your mice are displaying that. Can’t who a scientific study of this but our field mice, I run across their nest often, and have to clean them out…they are invariably filled with poop. I don’t mean just a little maybe why we have such a problem with hantavirus here and the other parts of the US donot. Just a guess.
      What animal would poop where they eat sleep and store food…. their nest..none.
      All mice have bladders for urine.
      So I would then say our mice.

      1. WE have quite a variance of mice out here. Some are big very big, some are real small. But we do not have Norway rats or European mice or any of that. This area was not subject to Europeans except recently. Albuquerque of course is way different.This is rural. Natives lived and transversed this area. Spanish colonialists a bit further down the road.

        They vary per rainfall.

      2. Well I’ve rescued and observed wildlife including mice, and grew up doing so with my mom who had done me do all her life and my observations have been vastly different. Wildlife is very good at keeping their nests clean and do not like to live in their own excrements. Birds will actually pick up their babies’ excrements and throw them off sides of their nests.

        1. Well don’t know what to tell you.I last cleaned out a nest in my storage area about a month or so ago. There were so much In the way of droppings I had to use a shovel and it was in the nest not along side it

          I used a mask and changed clothes and all that, but I figured my chance of hantavirus contraction was pretty good so I took brazil nuts for a month…selenium content may be related to hantavirus. .
          I did spend a week in hospital back in the day, 30 years ago about, as they thought I may have contracted that thing as it presented at the same time as a new thing to America. Maybe I had it maybe not.But here it is the real deal.

          Where you live probably not. Do mice and such their defecating habits differ from place to place and by type of mouse rodent….maybe we have arrived at a thing..maybe they do. Which would explain why hantavirus is so big here but not really found at all in places like NYC despite all being exposed to mice rodents and rats….why not hantavirus there millions exposed daily to rodents.

  27. If I see a spider (rarely) in my apartment I take a paper towel and — while assuring it I won’t hurt it — scoop it up and release it out the front door and into the hall to fend for itself. Back when I lived in Manhattan, I couldn’t kill a cockroach either….that horrible crunch sound! New Yorkers do see them once in a while, no matter how clean they try to keep their apartments. Somehow I’d get hold of it, put it in the kitchen sink, and run some cold water on it. It would then go down the drain to wherever. Again, to fend for itself. The Universe/Powers That Be take it from there. :-)

    When we lived in the country for a while, a tiny mouse toddled out from behind the kitchen sink. We locked eyes…it didn’t run, just sat there and blinked at me. I’d start looking for him/her while I did the evening dishes. Out he’d toddle, looking hungry. So I left him a little something or other and called him Marmaduke. I can’t remember how long he was with us and how he finally “escaped” into the fields. But he was certainly well-fed when he left. And a lot larger.

    When I see wasps or bees they never bother me. Somehow they know I won’t swat them. The ONLY insect I don’t mind killing is a mosquito. Actually, I haven’t been bothered with one of those in years. Interesting.

    1. I always scoop up spiders. I however had a 12 inch tarantula stuck at the bottom of a storage area with no way to do the cup and paper thing..hated to do it but I killed it. A rapidly moving foot long centipede as well a bit ago…moving to fast I had to do it. Their bites are fierce. Found one in my bed once.Usually I just jump right in but sensed something…there it was under the covers.

      I am no purist, my daughter was bite by a black widow a while back they can kill.I do the paper and cup thing with them though. Hundreds of baby spiders spilling out not long ago from one big spider…hundreds in the house I could not grab each every one. imposible, last week actually. I tend to say a thing of buddhist name they say sends them a better birth. Part of our fate here to birth this place is to cause harm just by living.No excuses but it explains it. I seek not to return here so I may not harm in this fashion.

      1. Homage to Buddha Retnaketu..some thing hears that, on their death it sends them to a pure land they say for a bit. So I say it.But I kill a bigger think like I kill a squirrel with a car or my pets die, I do a transference of consciousness ceremony to send them formally to a pure land. Can’t do that with every bug I may kill but some have done that in times past.

        When I do that ceremony however I will try to throw the lot of them in, any I have killed but may be cheating a bit that.

        1. My little dog will not kill stinkbugs. they chug along black little tanks a inch or so round she watches them curiously.
          My dog before that big tarantula..went over and licked it, tail wagging. Kids all know harm is not what we do. So I think we get it…most I think do not.

          I did not earlier bad fate to be born that way, in a place with not compassion for things like that. We have similar fate most all here in America.But we can change it, so cause will have us not here again, this place at least. It is unfortunate to be here not taught that.

          1. Wow Ron, you live in tarantula/black widow country? Sometimes you gotta work with your intuition if you need to make a decision fast. It’s either your life or its!

            The theory of reincarnation and pre-birth “contracts” always made sense to me. You can’t get it done in one short earth life.

            http://www.soulbridge.net/pre-birth.html

            1. I do not formally consider myself Buddhist though it is my form of study, it is not a slam or any such but a proven…the Dalai Lama was indeed paid about a 100k each year for about 20 years after leaving Tibet by the CIA. The NYT broke that story 1991 or so and the Dalai Lama’s office never denied it.To his credit he did give the money to others. Those others however being the armed resistance to the Chinese to include DL’s brother in a camp in Colorado. Good religious peoples can not be CIA operatives, and they do not pay people for nothing. The lionization of Tibet was part of a scheme they had CIA to discredit the Chinese.Tibet back in the day before the Chinese…was a serfdom. You were born as property of a lord like a slave. That is what it was..horrible. Chinese had good reason to invade.

              So I follow the religious ways but not formal things.But I have much formal training. My training on the philosophical side is…there is no soul. And the notion of that and that we progress through lives to learn things is in this regard formal hindu which is exceptional to formal buddhism in many ways.
              We rebirth as a product of cause, not as we are going anywhere up or down or sideways. Cause is all wound up in a sense of individuality a I. Remove that notion and we remove cause for rebirth. Not nihilism, not to crush it, but to understand it only as a construct, a thing to do things with like words not a real thing.Notion of soul reaffirms I . I will not rebirth in this hell…so I entertain no such notions.

              There is much variance in Buddhist belief. I express mine. Notion of soul is considered wrong view in about five of the major religions of Tibet. They just now allowed one who believes in that fashion but that is after probably a thousand years in which they did not.So it remains widely rejected and I express that. It is hard to grasp things of use in a foreign religion with a lot to not recommend it, but I do that.

              Americans are considered inferior and they will tell you all sorts of things. I have convoluted the process of study by stealing things in a way as they do not allow access//many books teachings are simply not allowed, misunderstood they do harm. And I have much in the way of official formal study as well…
              So I put things together to study and convolute that. But American Tibetan Buddhists may say…no we have a soul…we do not in this form of buddhism. They leave them with base inferior teachings as they have no capacity for any greater thing. So I have essentially stolen things. It is not nice but I do know what they say and do not say. Soul is not.
              It is quite complex.

              1. Your religion starts with the bible..in the beginning was the word and the word was god ….

                In this buddhist philosophical school of thought words are but concepts with no reality…a world apart from your religions view which unconsciously or not we inherit in the west.
                Yours is a absolute consideration of things right wrong good bad god devil strictly defined. IN traditional Buddhism I can indeed find verse that your god is a azura a demon the god of the Abraham religions all. No American buddhist will tell you that though..they do not know it.
                But it is fact stated. Demons believe in things such as words having substance and equality to a god, they are absolutists in this consideration which is the consideration the western religions reflect, the religions of Abraham derivitive. It is a world apart…your side often can simply cannot understand this context, no offense. All is prayer and devotion to your side as religion belief only. It is considered minor that which is why americans are largly not taught things. Tibetan buddhism.

                1. The Dali lama will tell lies all the time about the religion in a audience. It is part of what he does. A audience is told what it is expected will help them always, not what is the truth. A cultural nuance based on religious teaching So he says he believes in a creator god a soul all sorts of absurdities that are not believed in. Budddhists in Tibet firmly believe in supernatural but completely abstain from any belief in any creator god or soul they are a total opposite.
                  IN what he writes he says his true feeling but he will not go to deep in any public thing. .

                  Western religion philosophically is a joke, no offense intended, it is simplistic stuff worthy of a third grader. So complexity is not well received.

                  1. We in the west me included tend to think our whole construct of words is in a absolute consideration manner. We cannot help ourselves even atheists reflect a way of thinking that is absolute in nature. the words themselves drive us this way, English.

                    1. “Your religion starts with the bible.” What you mean “your,” white man? (Tonto/Long Ranger) :-)

                      Hey, don’t put all Americans in the same piss pot! We’re all seekers — even the so-called atheists and agnostics.

                      Personally, I rejected all organized religion long ago. I own no label. If anything, I semi-follow the teachings of Seth (via Jane Roberts) and Abraham-Hicks. We do create our realities, whether it seems that way or not. Furthermore, one person’s “truth” could be another’s “uh-uh, no way.” Who’s to say. what’s TRUTH? We’re all a part of the ONE. (Those who scarf down animal are actually eating themselves, haha.)

                      Be kind to others. Think positive thoughts, not negative ones. It’s all LOVE. And let’s not sweat the small stuff.

                    2. We all suffer from out cultural specifics. I suffer as much as any other from having a language and a inner way of thinking that pushes me towards a absolutist way of thinking.
                      To repeat even if we are atheists we internally abscribe to these thing.

                      Your religions I mean western religions which are largly the Abraham religions by far.
                      The Asian religions have their logical counter as well…in the feeling of oneness there is a loss of absolute determination of a good or bad effect, all is lumped together as the same and then just grey.
                      This presents in the counter to veganism argument which has cannot stop all harm so we cannot prevent harm at all….so why not eat meat.
                      So there are deficiencies to both sides constructs.

                      But we have to understand our biases and why they are there.
                      On the racial things blacks did formally participate in the subjugation of the native americans…that is where the term buffalo soldiers came from…their hair reminded natives of buffalo hair.
                      It is not so much color this thing of type but exercise of colonial power. Such other terms are used to paint that thing with a brush for various agendas.

                    3. Natives by my read originated the term hard ass as well…how and why. Custer was well known to have had his troops ride long and often so natives surmised he had a hard ass. So that is how they refered to him amongst themselves,,,hard ass or old hard ass not the glowing terms we may have heard in some movies.

                      As a side note but all races in America conspired in the subjugation of natives, all kinds and types without exception Andrew Jackson his election spoke to the widespread popularity of the thing. IN later times it continued to replicate. It is always a question of jobs jobs jobs as opposed to morality. NYC irish firmly opposed the civil war. Not as they knew blacks(none were in ireland) but as it was naturally assumed who would compete with them for jobs they held freed blacks. It did not really happen however.Leonardo DeCaprio was in a movie that touched on the antiwar fevor in NYC at that time.

                    4. On the buffalo themselves..the introduction of the horse enabled the plains tribes to slaughter them in ordinate amounts not historically present earlier.

                      They transitioned from a substance lifestyle to a buy and sell or trade lifestyle, which resulted in the end with a net loss of buffalo over the years. Of course the Europeans killed them in gross amounts and largly left the flesh to rot but the horse had already upset a natural balance between natives and buffalo.

                    5. I have found evidence actually yesterday, that the tribes participated in a nationwide culture. Trees in the northeast were bent in a certain direction to serve as markers this is widely known of and studied, by natives.
                      I found a tree in my area on a trail I jog in the forest, with this same characteristic. It was a old old tree probably 600 years old and dead for probably 200 more(cedar they do not rot here it is desert like) clearly it was a marker tree. This is not known of nor studied.

                      There is some evidence natives did not really much participate in what we call a capitalist economy of grow or harvest through killing or other excess in a great scale….some occurred, but perhaps not so much in trade. More as in specific areas items not found to tribes that had not them. Those things were traded. But not on a excess nature. For the plain native this presented a transition from substanance, to buy sell and capitalism as root mover with the introduction of the horse. Excess was produced wealth and then trade to produce wealth and gain.
                      Excess is at the heart of capitalism. Trade occurs with substance cultures but not of excess for that specific result produced.

                      Coupled with my contention of similar culture effect, trees were bent here on trail as a marker same as in the northeast….possibly a non capitalist model was not present in most places earlier. But with the horse a transition was occurring perhaps nationwide to capatilistic principal. The tribes were connected nationwide by my observation. It was apparently a nationwide phenomea this bending of trees for marker to mark trails.

                    6. Religious thought always reflects culture and capitalistic principal is served better with some religious thought than others. This presents in the specifics of each religious choice on a global fashion by my read.

                      Bhutan is little served by capitalistic principal, production of excess but the USA certainly is. Our choice of religious belief reflects that as much as anything.
                      So natives by religious practice they did revere other things, they did not produce excess which other cultures do and did as as such a consideration of animals as but tools did not pervade.
                      Bhutan they have the same basic principals.

        2. Ceremony takes 30 minutes done right and that does not include meditational practice to get ready and in the mood. Powah it is called. Transference of consciousness ceremony.
          Which I know works to do something. Dog firmly dead in my arms doing the ceremony..each series of statements made at the end, when one actually throws that thing consciousness..dogs body firmly jerked each time. Something happened it moved I did not, it was dead and not just one which you see at times a thing recently dead, which each saying …strange. It does some thing.

  28. What a totally useless and groundless “study”. These people are not scientific analysts. They are animal torturers with limited consciousness making baseless claims from faulty “studies”. All for the sake of promoting a product so that some company can make more money. The company who supports these “studies” ought to rethink exactly what they are doing and who they are hiring – their priorities are screwed.

  29. That’s interesting about the swimming test. Who knows if they were depressed or just fatigued. I have heard before that coconut boost endurance so this study goes with that. Interesting :)

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