Keto Diet Theory Put to the Test

Keto Diet Theory Put to the Test
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Do low-carb and ketogenic diets have a metabolic advantage for weight loss?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

When you don’t eat enough carbohydrates, you force your body to burn more fat. “However, this rise in fat [burning] is often misconstrued as a greater rate of net [fat mass] reduction [on the body].” But that ignores the fact that on a ketogenic diet your fat intake shoots up as well. The question is what happens to your overall body fat balance. You can’t empty a tub by widening the drain if you’re cranking up the faucet at the same time. Low-carb advocates had a theory, though: the so-called “carbohydrate–insulin model of obesity.”

Proponents of low-carb diets, whether a ketogenic diet or a more relaxed form of carbohydrate restriction, suggested that the decreased insulin secretion would lead to less fat storage. And so, even if you were eating more fat, less of it would stick to your frame. So, we’d be burning more and storing less, the perfect combination for fat loss—or so the theory went. To their credit, instead of just speculating about it, they decided to put it to the test.

Gary Taubes formed the Nutrition Science Initiative to sponsor research to validate the carbohydrate–insulin model. He’s the journalist who wrote the controversial 2002 New York Times Magazine piece, “What if It’s All Been a Big Fat Lie?”, which attempted to turn nutrition dogma on its head by arguing in favor of the Atkins diet, with its bunless bacon cheeseburgers based on the carbohydrate–insulin model. (Much of Nina Teicholz’s book The Big Fat Surprise is simply recycled from Taubes’s earlier work).

In response, some of the very researchers Taubes cited to support his thesis accused him of twisting their words. “The article was incredibly misleading,” one said. “I was horrified.” “He took this weird little idea and blew it up, and people believed him,” said another. “What a disaster.” It doesn’t matter what people say, though. All that matters is the science.

Taubes attracted $40 million in committed funding for his Nutrition Science Initiative to prove to the world you could lose more body fat on a ketogenic diet. They contracted noted NIH researcher Kevin Hall to perform the study. Seventeen overweight men were effectively locked in what’s called a metabolic ward for two months to allow researchers total control over their diets. For the first month, they were placed on a typical high-carbohydrate diet (50 percent carbohydrate; 35 percent fat; 15 percent protein), and then they were switched to a low-carb ketogenic diet (only 5 percent of calories from carbohydrate; 80 percent fat) for the second month. Both diets had the same number of daily calories. So, if a calorie is a calorie when it comes to weight loss, then there should be no difference in body fat loss on the regular diet versus the ketogenic diet. If Taubes was right, though, if fat calories were somehow less fattening, then body fat loss would become accelerated. What happened instead, in the very study funded by the Nutrition Science Initiative, was that “[b]ody fat loss slowed” upon switching to the ketogenic diet.

Wait…why do people think the keto diet works, if it’s actually slowing fat loss? Well, if you just looked at the readings on their bathroom scales, the ketogenic diet would seem like a smashing success. They went from losing less than a pound a week on the regular diet in the two weeks before they switched to losing three and a half pounds within seven days after the switch to the ketogenic diet. But what was happening inside their bodies told a totally different story. Their rate of body fat loss was slowed by more than half. So, most of what they were losing was just water weight. (The reason they started burning less fat on a ketogenic diet was presumed to be because without the preferred fuel, carbohydrates, their bodies started burning more of its own protein.)

And that’s exactly what happened. Switching to a ketogenic diet made them lose less fat mass and more fat-free mass; they lost more lean mass. That may help explain why the leg muscles of CrossFit trainees placed on a ketogenic diet may shrink as much as 8 percent. The vastus lateralis is your biggest quads muscle in your leg. Shrunk in thickness by 8 percent on a ketogenic diet.

Yes, the study subjects started burning more fat on the ketogenic diet, but they were also eating so much more fat on the ketogenic diet that they ended up retaining more fat in their body, despite the lower insulin levels. This is “diametrically opposite” to what the keto crowd predicted, and this from the guy they paid to support their theory. In science-speak, “the carbohydrate–insulin model failed experimental interrogation.”

In light of this “experimental falsification” of the low-carb theory, the Nutrition Science Initiative effectively collapsed…. but, based on their tax returns, not before Taubes and his co-founder personally pocketed millions of dollars in compensation.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Ted Eytan via flickr. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

When you don’t eat enough carbohydrates, you force your body to burn more fat. “However, this rise in fat [burning] is often misconstrued as a greater rate of net [fat mass] reduction [on the body].” But that ignores the fact that on a ketogenic diet your fat intake shoots up as well. The question is what happens to your overall body fat balance. You can’t empty a tub by widening the drain if you’re cranking up the faucet at the same time. Low-carb advocates had a theory, though: the so-called “carbohydrate–insulin model of obesity.”

Proponents of low-carb diets, whether a ketogenic diet or a more relaxed form of carbohydrate restriction, suggested that the decreased insulin secretion would lead to less fat storage. And so, even if you were eating more fat, less of it would stick to your frame. So, we’d be burning more and storing less, the perfect combination for fat loss—or so the theory went. To their credit, instead of just speculating about it, they decided to put it to the test.

Gary Taubes formed the Nutrition Science Initiative to sponsor research to validate the carbohydrate–insulin model. He’s the journalist who wrote the controversial 2002 New York Times Magazine piece, “What if It’s All Been a Big Fat Lie?”, which attempted to turn nutrition dogma on its head by arguing in favor of the Atkins diet, with its bunless bacon cheeseburgers based on the carbohydrate–insulin model. (Much of Nina Teicholz’s book The Big Fat Surprise is simply recycled from Taubes’s earlier work).

In response, some of the very researchers Taubes cited to support his thesis accused him of twisting their words. “The article was incredibly misleading,” one said. “I was horrified.” “He took this weird little idea and blew it up, and people believed him,” said another. “What a disaster.” It doesn’t matter what people say, though. All that matters is the science.

Taubes attracted $40 million in committed funding for his Nutrition Science Initiative to prove to the world you could lose more body fat on a ketogenic diet. They contracted noted NIH researcher Kevin Hall to perform the study. Seventeen overweight men were effectively locked in what’s called a metabolic ward for two months to allow researchers total control over their diets. For the first month, they were placed on a typical high-carbohydrate diet (50 percent carbohydrate; 35 percent fat; 15 percent protein), and then they were switched to a low-carb ketogenic diet (only 5 percent of calories from carbohydrate; 80 percent fat) for the second month. Both diets had the same number of daily calories. So, if a calorie is a calorie when it comes to weight loss, then there should be no difference in body fat loss on the regular diet versus the ketogenic diet. If Taubes was right, though, if fat calories were somehow less fattening, then body fat loss would become accelerated. What happened instead, in the very study funded by the Nutrition Science Initiative, was that “[b]ody fat loss slowed” upon switching to the ketogenic diet.

Wait…why do people think the keto diet works, if it’s actually slowing fat loss? Well, if you just looked at the readings on their bathroom scales, the ketogenic diet would seem like a smashing success. They went from losing less than a pound a week on the regular diet in the two weeks before they switched to losing three and a half pounds within seven days after the switch to the ketogenic diet. But what was happening inside their bodies told a totally different story. Their rate of body fat loss was slowed by more than half. So, most of what they were losing was just water weight. (The reason they started burning less fat on a ketogenic diet was presumed to be because without the preferred fuel, carbohydrates, their bodies started burning more of its own protein.)

And that’s exactly what happened. Switching to a ketogenic diet made them lose less fat mass and more fat-free mass; they lost more lean mass. That may help explain why the leg muscles of CrossFit trainees placed on a ketogenic diet may shrink as much as 8 percent. The vastus lateralis is your biggest quads muscle in your leg. Shrunk in thickness by 8 percent on a ketogenic diet.

Yes, the study subjects started burning more fat on the ketogenic diet, but they were also eating so much more fat on the ketogenic diet that they ended up retaining more fat in their body, despite the lower insulin levels. This is “diametrically opposite” to what the keto crowd predicted, and this from the guy they paid to support their theory. In science-speak, “the carbohydrate–insulin model failed experimental interrogation.”

In light of this “experimental falsification” of the low-carb theory, the Nutrition Science Initiative effectively collapsed…. but, based on their tax returns, not before Taubes and his co-founder personally pocketed millions of dollars in compensation.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Ted Eytan via flickr. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Doctor's Note

This is the second in a seven-video series on keto diets. In case you missed the first one, check out Is Keto an Effective Cancer-Fighting Diet?

Stay tuned for:

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I did a whole website about the Atkins Diet, and sadly, people keep falling into the low-carb trap.

Some of my older videos on low-carb diets include:

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

150 responses to “Keto Diet Theory Put to the Test

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  1. Dr G’s vast scope of work has been instrumental on building my own off-line library compiling extensive work from a growing group of WFPB doctors and researchers. Files on different diseases, files on different foods, files on different recipes, files on competing diet plans. The latter seems the most contentious. So I have a whole group of files dedicated just to the many diet plans offered. And of course the latest low-carb craze, the Keto diet, has it’s own file. Ever notice how people seem to naturally gravitate toward the unhealthy low-carb stuff? My hope is this compilation of data into files specifically addressing each of the unhealthy plans will be useful to help others to understand what the science has actually demonstrated. And I let the science speak for itself. I have learned the hard way that many do not WANT the truth. They WANT to be told that the high-fat junk that is already making them sick is good for them. I suspect their issue is rooted in this problem.
    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/are-fatty-foods-addictive/

    So I just offer the science, recognizing if it is not an intellectual discussion, there is nothing I can do until they consider the real root of their misguided plan.

    1. This makes a distinct problem. How did i loose over 70 pounds on Atkins and have kept it off over a decade? I know a fair number of others who have had success with this but clearly not everyone. There is definitely something to Keto diets that works for a significant number of people but of course Vegans aren’t interested in that.

      1. warneharvey,

        I’m not a vegan; I eat Plant Based Whole Foods. And I’ve been a vegetarian for almost 50 years. My original reasons were sustainability and environmental: not eating meat uses far fewer resources (land, water, fossil fuels as fertilizers, biocides, etc) and releases far fewer greenhouse gasses. Dropping eggs and dairy products is even more sustainable and less environmentally degrading. And, it’s less cruel to animals and meat industry workers, and contributes less to the development of antibiotic resistance.

        So I could never eat a meat based keto diet. And, luckily for me, eating PBWF is one of the healthiest, if not the healthiest, ways to eat.

        My question for you is: Are you interested in the sustainability and environmental consequences and cruelty of your way of eating?

        Or do I get to write: “But of course Keto eaters aren’t interested in that?” The global consequences of the way they eat?

          1. Thomas Eckrich…That question can’t be answered properly, as it is an antidotal statement and cannot be verified. Anyone can state anything and it can’t be argued or answered because it could be false.

          2. Thomas M. Eckrich,

            From one of the videos in the list from the Doctor’s Notes above:

            “People going on low-carb diets may not see a rise in their cholesterol levels. How is that possible? Because weight loss by any means can drop our cholesterol. We could go on an all-Twinkie diet and lower our cholesterol if we were unable to eat the dozen daily Twinkies necessary to maintain our weight…

            There’s only been one study ever done measuring actual blood flow to the heart muscles of people eating low-carb diets…Those sticking to the vegetarian diet showed a reversal of their heart disease, as expected. Their partially clogged arteries literally got cleaned out. They had 20% less atherosclerotic plaque in their arteries at the end of the year than at the beginning. What happened to those who abandoned the treatment diet, and switched over to the low-carb diet? Their condition significantly worsened. 40 to 50% more artery clogging at the end of the year.”

            (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/low-carb-diets-and-coronary-blood-flow/)

            1. warneharvey

              What’s more expensive then meat? These ‘others’ also want to be healthy btw, but they don’t know how, largely thanks to industries muddying of the science and buying a positive public message.

              It’s not about dictating either, it’s about educating people, pushing for industry to shift to plants and stopping the subsidies for animal agriculture (watch how fast everyone goes plant based when they have to pay the actual cost of meat), and dealing with health crisis in the western world. It does HAVE to change though if we’re going to have a healthy, sustainable future. Science, animal welfare, environmental sustainability, and human health are all aligned in the same direction, so this shouldn’t be hard.

        1. I eat mostly plant foods. Meat on special occasions. I am not sure “sustainability” was ever an issue in my efforts to shed weight versus the life threatening issues surrounding obesity. I am a great fan of Dr. Gregor’s and support his efforts.

          Painting people as “cruel” and not environmentally friendly is much like calling someone you don’t agree with “racist”. The name is simply a catch bucket.

          Lastly, there are vast numbers of people simply looking for their next meal, sustainable or not. Our position of wealth does not give us the right to dictate to others. Spare me the name calling. What I am talking about is what has worked for a significant portion of the population when everything else failed miserably.

          Lastly, who is “Dr. J”? I posted my comment as a real life experience and I have sustained my success without killing vast herd of animals.

          1. warneharvey,

            I eat mostly plant foods and meat on special occasions is not what most of the people who go Atkins or Keto are doing.

            Mostly plant foods with meat on special occasions is closer to Whole Food Plant-Based than to what my Atkins or Keto friends and family members are doing. They are eating bacon and cheeseburgers and are holding the bun, which is what I did when I went Atkins 40 years ago. I think it was 40 years ago. Hard to pinpoint the exact number. I ate a lot of hot dogs and hamburgers without the bun and mostly was close to carnivore.

            I am just about Whole Food Plant-Based vegan-ish now and identify that direction, even if my brother accidentally put some cheese on my vegan burger yesterday and I mentally deliberated before eating it and decided to not have him have to cook another one.

            But I will continue to have conversations of how much better I feel when I really do stay as close as possible to the vegan end of things.

            My being respectful toward them has caused them to eat more vegetables and some of the foods they eat now are actually vegan.

            I do know people who have dropped dead after Atkins. Almost immediately after dropping a lot of weight.

            My Keto friends have out of control Diabetes and they are not losing weight and have so much pain.

            I went WFPB instead and got rid of all symptoms of Diabetes and have zero pain and only lost a little bit of weight, but I think upping my Vitamin D and walking is helping turn the corner.

            1. Deb,

              Nice to read of your changes on the WFPB diet. As to the weight loss…..

              It’s all about your complete intake, be that WFPB, some level of “artificial” foods the right nutrient mix (ie. optimal vitamins and minerals) coupled with movement and emotional wellbeing that really makes the whole enchilada.

              In terms of the vitamin D, I would highly recommend you test your levels and not guess. It’s both easy, inexpensive and you don’t need a physician’s orders. Also have you considered or are you taking B12 and some omega 3’s ?

              Keep up the pain free lifestyle and continue to experiment till your finding your optimal balance.

              Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger http://www.Centerofhealth.com.

            2. Excellent and shares my personal beliefs and story of being a “almost vegan/WFPB” food choice person. Thank you for sharing these thoughts.

          2. Perhaps it is because you stopped eating processed carbohydrates and sugar when you went keto? Those foods are highly addicting and not filling, unlike fiber-filled veggies and fruits which are incredibly filling and offer lots of healthy nutrients.

            1. Jessica,

              After hearing from many patients who “went keto” and providing them keto sticks to actually test their bodies levels, it becomes so clear that they needed to drop all of the simple sugars asap to even experience the minimal ketosis.

              So yes, it’s the inevitable probability that this ditching all forms of simple carbs is what happens to those actually making the major changes to modify one’s metabolism. As Dr. Greger points out, not necessarily in terms of making for a healthy outcome.

              Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger http://www.Centerofhealth.com.

        2. A meat based Keto diet is partly about eating foods produced from healthy pasture raised animals. If this food isn’t sourced correctly then it isn’t Keto.

          1. Michael

            A keto diet is a diet that puts people into ketosis. The source of the foodstuffs used is irrelevant to the definition.

            And the idea that pasture sourced foods are good for us isc a belief with no hard evidence to support it.

          2. “A meat based Keto diet is partly about eating foods produced from healthy pasture raised animals.”

            Michael, at one time I was a patient of Dr. Robert Atkins’ and had a consultation with him.
            He never mentioned that, to the best of my recollection.

        3. Wow way to appreciate different views. Yours is a choice and it should be respected. Your lack of respect for others views is telling about you.

      2. I am a Vegan and I started Ketogenic diet along with 16/8 intermittent fast. Yes I lost 10 kgs in 2 months, triglyceride literally vanished which was a big surprise to my physician. However as stated in this research, maintaining muscle mass is a challenge and therefore must be supplemented by Vegan protein. What did I eat?……Avocados and nuts, lots of them. Perhaps that is the secret, Vegan KD or its just the Intermittent fasting or perhaps both. It worked for me but must be put to test and see the result.

        1. Siva,

          I will say just that I have been intermittent fasting almost the whole time since going WFPB and lost maybe 8 pounds and then just stalled for the next year and 8 months. I honestly think the 8 pounds I lost was all lost while I was eating oatmeal for breakfast at the very beginning of the process, so intermittent fasting was just plain a bust for me and it can be for women.

          There is a study where women got worse with glucose regulation when they did intermittent fasting and I feel like it just shut down my metabolism entirely.

          I have a lot of weight to lose and upping my Vitamin D and upping my walking so that I don’t have to go extremely low calories seems promising so far, but I have only lost a few pounds, so I will tell everyone in a month or so.

      3. To lose 70 pounds is great, but what is going on inside your body? How is your overall health, do you take medications, is constipation, halitosis or low energy an issue? How are your kidneys holding up with the excessive strain caused from heavy meat consumption? Long term health studies show a strong coloration between chronic disease and meat consumption. The people doing the Keto diet are a lot like guinea pigs when it comes to long term health. The science is pretty clear, but maybe you’re hoping to be the exception to the rule. A roll of the dice with your health.

        My personal long term experience, and that of many friends, 25 + years vegetarian or plant based has produced exceptional results when it comes to health. Never had to lose all that weight in the 1st place, started vegetarian shortly after college, and have been stuck with a size 34 jeans ever since. I’ve never taken medications, energy levels are great, and health feels better now than at the age of 25. Plant based eating also lets your skin age with grace, just one, of a long list of benefits you can experience.

        And for those that care about our children, the earth we live on, or have an affinity with other animals on this planet the choice is obvious. 10 minutes of enjoyment at lunch might mean an entire lifetime of suffering for the recently deceased animal on the dinner plate. One diet works in harmony with our body and nature, and the other is all about self-gratification at the expense of another.

        1. You have just summarized why a plant based whole food diet is so much better than the proven flawed: “standard American diet”. When you are young, you may not notice, accept or attribute that there are causes for the deterioration of several aspects of your health. Half a lifetime of meat, dairy and processed Big Food will take a noticeable toll on your physical and mental well being.
          For me a change to a plant based whole food diet improved my life. While I may live longer, I will do so less painfully and more alert and more cognitive.

        2. The challenge is the population needs to consume calories however they are consumed. Meat or vegetarian.

          Meat uses 1/10 the arrange land a vegetarian diet for the same amount of calories. Therefore more of the Amazon rain forest is destroyed to fuel a very inefficient calorie diet.

          Soya should be banned completely

        3. Micahsl,
          >>>My personal long term experience, and that of many friends, 25 + years vegetarian or plant based has produced exceptional results when it comes to health. Never had to lose all that weight in the 1st place, started vegetarian shortly after college, and have been stuck with a size 34 jeans ever since

          Basically my experience too. Various forms of vegetarian since college 50 years ago, 100% whole plant diet for about 3 years. Never had issues being overweight. At 72, my test results (TC 134, A1c 5.0, hs-crp, homocysteine, you name it) are fine, no medications. Possibly genetics has helped me, but I attribute it to my diet as I am doing better than my meat eating relatives, and my TC dropped like a rock when I went vegan.

        4. Michael,

          You are right.

          My friend last 50 pounds this past year but when she went to the doctor, he said that she had the worst lab results he had ever seen.

          She is high fat and is torn whether to go WFPB to try to reverse her Diabetes.

      4. Warneharvey: Are you familiar with the book “Vegan Keto” by Liz MacDowell? I would say: Vegans ARE interested in that, or at least some of them are. I do think there’s a problem when dietary experts ignore evidence that might help them integrate new information that might improve their advice. For whatever reason, I do better eating less than 50 net carbs a day. I can control my weight and food cravings better. I do this as a vegetarian. I am here because I really enjoy Dr. Gregor’s videos, and integrate a lot of his advice. For instance, I have flaxseed every day, drink hibiscus tea, and eat my greens (all thanks to Dr. G.)

        1. My wife, a very slim prediabetic, does better on a higher fat 100% whole plant diet. Fat about 40%, intact carbs about about 45%. Virtually all fat from nuts/seeds, some avocado. Keeps her blood sugar from spiking after meals. Also she does high intensity interval training to absorb sugar without the aid of insulin. When she was on a high unprocessed carb diet a la McDougall her A1c was in the mid prediabetic range and measurements after eating showed very unhealthy spikes. But her fasting blood sugar level was always very normal. Deceptively so. Genetics must be involved since her mother had the same problem. Because of her experience, I o longer believe one size suits all when it comes to diet, but I do believe whole plant foods are generally healthier than significant amounts of animal foods.

      5. warneharvey,
        Hard to speculate without any details, e.g. in the study the diets were isocaloric. You did not do a controlled study. Perhaps your low carb Atkins diet has allowed you to feel satisfied eating fewer calories or broke an addiction to sugar you might have had, leading to overeating. Perhaps you also increased your physical activity, so a higher carb diet might have also worked under identical circumstances. Atkins is a high protein diet, but keto is not. So perhaps you consume enough extra protein, e.g. 30% or more of calories to compensate for the lean muscle mass loss observed for those on the keto diet in the study.

        It’s ironic for you whine about vegans not being interested, given the that the study was done by people expecting to prove the superiority of keto diet.

      6. warneharvey

        I’m not a vegan either and the fact that people can lose weight on a particular diet doesn’t prove that it is healthy. People have lost weight on all sorts of diets. Many of them are unhealthy as long term choices.

        There is definitely a problem here though. The problem is people believing that anecdotal reports and their personal experiences constitute overwhelming evidence that a diet is healthy. There is a mountain of evidence that high saturated fat diets like those promoted by Atkins increase the risk of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer and other chronic diseases. Unforitunately people like you just aren’t interested in what that evidence shows.

        1. The high fat part of keto has prevented me from going that route; as you say, it’s been proven to have downsides, like cancer. Meat also has similar downsides. I do try and lower carbs but I avoid meat and dairy most of the time for the same reasons (do eat salmon once a week). And even though keto and fasting are cousins (both put you into ketosis), I’ve had good luck with daily fasting (6 on, 18 off) and a 7 day water only fast which I plan to repeat once or twice a year ala recommendations from Thomas Seyfried.

          I have low grade prostate cancer, G=6 and have been going (mostly) vegan since I got the diagnoses. My goal is to keep it there or reverse it if possible (Ornish says it is) so I don’t have to contend with the next steps such as surgery, radiation, chemo, drugs… So far so good.

      7. Good question. I started low carb almost 4 years ago & my weight went from 271 pounds down to my current weight of 219. Not only weight loss though. My cholesterol went from 240 to 191, my C-reactive protein level is now normal. My slightly high blood sugar level is now normal. My testosterone level went from 190 to currently 349. You can’t tell me that low carb diets don’t work because they do.

        1. ‘I started low carb almost 4 years ago & my weight went from 271 pounds down to my current weight of 219. Not only weight loss though. My cholesterol went from 240 to 191, my C-reactive protein level is now normal. My slightly high blood sugar level is now normal. My testosterone level went from 190 to currently 349. You can’t tell me that low carb diets don’t work because they do.’

          The guy on the Twinkie Diet lost weight and all his biomarkers improved too. That must prove that the Twinkie Diet ‘works too?

          https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Recipes/twinkie-diet-short-term-fix-long-term-problem/story?id=11756710

      8. Why oh why do alleged non vegans even bother to come here? You do know what this website is about right? I personally know quite a few Atkins people who are bitter they bought into an expensive fad diet with mediocre results.

      9. Same here, have a scale that measures my fat % with electric impulses. And the fat went down. But sure water also went down, but don’t fat contain a lot of water?
        Dr Greger ignore most information like all main stream doctors about this subject. He talks about the general things that they do, but never really talks about how the body stores fat on the body.
        By secreting insulin hormone(fat producing hormone) the body can store fat on the body. Insuline is only released when one have to high levels of Glucose in the body.
        He does not mention this at all.
        Hopefully he makes a anew one and actually talk to someone like Dr Andreas Eenfeldt
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ta3xqkZSbg

      10. I suppose it’s like my Grandfather who chained smoked since he was 10 years old. He lived to be 94. Congratulations on your weight loss and for keeping it off.

      11. You lost a lot of muscle. I rather keep the maximum amount of muscle and lose the most amount of fat. Your keto “diet” is unhealthy in itself, less efficient and an environmental disaster.

      1. I went from 384 to 182 (so far) and all my blood tests have stayed the same, if already good, or dropped tremendously if too high.

        That said, I do MODERATE protein; I don’t gorge on it.

        With a few weeks of starting Keto, I felt wonderful from dropping grains, sugars, and starchy foods. No physical hunger pangs, no brain fog, no bloated belly. And my mood improved after less than a week.

        I eat healthy fats – avocado, olive oil, nut oils, grass-fed butter, and the like. And I love fish, too, as well as flax meal. So my omega 3 intake is likely higher than that of many.

        While I’ve not had to deal with diabetes, nor pre, I have several friends who dropped meds, with doctor’s orders, after a short while. Their blood sugar dropped way more than following a diabetic diet if so-called acceptable grains and starches

        As a heart patient (aortic valve replacement), I have scans and bloodwork more often than many.
        My last check showed beautifully clear arteries.

        I wish I could be part of proper, scientific study. There’s way too much garbage/correlative info floating around out there. Sadly, many studies set out to prove the opinion of the researchers, stating a correlation as if it’s causation.

        Frustrating.

        P.S. If, evolutionarily, we were/are meant to be exclusively plant eaters, why do we have an omnivorous set of teeth?
        Further, from quite a few studies I have read, agriculture (rice, wheat, etc) is quite recent with regards to.human evolution. And the human body has not evolved enough to eat those foods.

        1. We don’t have “omnivorous teeth”, we have the same teeth as a cow that “glides” over our food. Starches have supported human life well for thousands of years. I’ll stick with history as a guide instead of some whacko new theory. I’m 76 and WFPB for life.Also, animals don’t “produce” protein. They get it from the same source as others; PLANTS. Why go through the middle man?

      2. Hanne,

        To some degree, it might depend on whether people are getting their calories from nuts and seeds and avocado or oil and saturated fats or animal proteins.

        I will use Finland as an example because they went high-fat dairy and ended up having whole segments of their population start dying of heart attacks when they were in their 40’s and 50’s and became the nation with the highest rate of Alzheimer’s. My family has a segment which has the same results of dying in their 40’s and 50’s.

        The thing is, Finland was able to reverse that trend by going low fat. They reversed the heart attack situation by 84% and the Alzheimer’s study had a 90% lower risk when people went low fat.

        If you contrast that to the Okinawans, the Okinawans who lived into their hundreds were extremely low fat. As a culture, they started to lose that longevity when they switched off their low-fat diet.

        There are mortality studies and low-carb is linked to worse levels of mortality of heart disease, stroke, cancer and all-cause mortality.

        People eating low-carb had a 32% increase in total mortality, 35% increase in cancer mortality, and 51% and 50% increases of coronary artery disease and stroke mortality.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/

        That study didn’t add in Alzheimer’s, but Finland’s study already showed a decrease risk by 90% going off fat.

        If you go to the Adventist’s or the Nun study you see the Nun’s who were closer to WFPB vegan live longer and healthier lives and the Adventist’s only have about 5% rate of Alzheimer’s.

        Nuts and seeds and avocado are the sources of fat, which the WFPB community will bicker over, but there aren’t any doctors telling people to base their diets around those at a high level. The exception is that Dr. Fuhrman does have extremely athletic people who are trying to not lose weight eat more fats from nuts and seeds and avocado, but that is for that specific group only.

      1. I am certainly not anonymous :) I have normalized my diabetes ( a1c of 5.4, no meds) and lost 95 pounds with 2 years of strict keto. No more water weight, inflammation, fibromyalgia, frozen shoulder or GERD. Perfect BP. One of the best decisions I ever made. I am healthier and stronger bow than the last 40 year’s.

  2. I always wonder if truth isn’t somewhere halfway. Both keto folks and carb folks tend to like the clarity of extremes. This presentation proves one extreme wrong, but that does not imply that the other extreme is right.

    Our bodies seem to have evolved to benefit from what we put in, as long as it is moderate, and adapt to it. Variation is also key in most dietary advise.

    Another thing that keeps disturbing me about oversimplified diet explanations is that the body is considered a sort of integral equation of what we put in. Physiologically, most [0] processes that I’ve seen, including enzymatic ones, can run faster when there is more input to work on. Getting more active when fed well, basically. Until you override and control such processes with hormones, of course. So the model I usually keep in mind for physiological processes is an exponential drop (e^-ct), loosing a fixed percentage of input each time a fixed period passes (and never really reaching zero). This is also known as the “memoryless distribution” which explains why it is so abundant: There is no need to explicitly take note of the amount to break down, just a matter of substances meeting an enzyme by chance as a result of their density.

    [0] not alcohol breakdown; there is a brake on that because the breakdown products are poisonous and need time to be further metabolised.

    1. I always wonder if truth isn’t somewhere halfway. Both keto folks and carb folks tend to like the clarity of extremes. This presentation proves one extreme wrong, but that does not imply that the other extreme is right.
      ——————————————————————————————–
      I tend to agree Rick. My own experience with Keto was after fasting for three and a half days (Valter Longo data) I had (from his research) used up all the glucose available in my body and had turned to burning stored fat in the liver to produce ketones for my body to use as fuel.

      But the picture on the splash screen for this video had nothing to do with my ketone production. My primary fat was a few tablespoons of MCT oil (medium chain triglycerides) and about half as much walnut oil. At the time I still ate breast meat chicken in a one-pot stew on occasion and herring fillets and occasionally sardines IIRC. No butter, milk (maybe some yogurt) other high fat foods… and certainly no red meat but plenty of vegetables (from cans) and herbs and spices.

      For me anyway, a ketogenic diet apparently means something totally different than what was tested in this one study.
      That’s been a few years ago but my triglyceride and cholesterol numbers got better

      1. Just a follow-up… this video served its purpose of de-bunking this one attempt at validating keto diet in the form tested.

        But in my opinion, it doesn’t in any way disprove a well thought out and performed keto regimen in a way other than the Atkins way (and/or unhealthy fats way.)

          1. Lonnie, well said. You articulated some points much better than I. :)
            ——————————————————————————————
            Thank you Debra for the kind words. (Words are my stock and trade. ‘-)

          2. This is bizarre.

            You guys don’t even seem to understand what a ketogenic diet is.

            i understand that some people just think it is an alternative term for ‘low carb’ but in fact it’s a diet that induces ketosis – that’s why it’s called a ketogenic diet.

            Greger is talking about the ketogenic diet but you are talking about low carb diets generally. Your criticisms are irrelevant.

        1. A ketogenic diet is supposed to be a diet that puts people into ketosis.

          However people seem to be using it as an alternative term for low carb diets.

          And an Atkins diet isn’t a keto diet … not in the great majority of cases anyway. Also, conventional Atkins diets high in butter, cheese, cream and steak were shown years ago to increase the risk of heart disease and other chronic diseases if only because of their high saturated fat content. I say conventional Atkins diets because I think the jury is still out on the eco Atkins diet.

          1. Fumbles,
            Terminology on the web seems a bit all over the place, but you are of course, right: the key idea is a diet that results in ketosis, i.e. elevated production of ketones.

            For the curious, here’s the definition fromhttps://www.cancer.gov/publications/dictionaries/cancer-terms/def/ketogenic-diet
            “Ketogenic diet listen (KEE-toh-JEH-nik DY-et)
            A diet high in fat and low in carbohydrates (sugars) that causes the body to break down fat into molecules called ketones. Ketones circulate in the blood and become the main source of energy for many cells in the body. A ketogenic diet is used to treat some types of epilepsy and is being studied in the treatment of some types of cancer.“

            Note the reference to “main source of energy”.

            The Atkins people attempt to differentiate their diet from a ‘standard keto diet’ in terms of the exact percentage of fat, protein and carbs, while both result in ketosis.

            https://www.atkins.com/how-it-works/atkins-blogs/colette-heimowitz/is-atkins-the-better-keto-diet

            “What is the difference between the Keto Diet and Atkins? While both Atkins and Keto activate your body’s fat-burning metabolism by restricting carbs, on a standard keto diet, 75% to 90% of your daily calories come from fat, 5% to 20% come from protein and less than 5% come from carbs. Unless you are trying to control seizures, this high level of fat consumption may not be necessary. This is why Keto can be confusing, because there are so many definitions and philosophies.

            Meanwhile, you can still achieve and maintain the fat-burning state of ketosis by consuming 40 grams of Net Carbs or less a day, with about 65% of your daily calories coming from fat, as you do on Atkins 20 or Atkins 40:

            Atkins 20: Fat: 60%-70%, Protein: 20% to 30%, Carbs: 5% to 10%
            Atkins 40: Fat: 55% to 65%, Protein: 20% to 30%, Carbs: 10% to 15%”

            But it should be kept in mind that ketosis is not a binary state, meaning one can alter the degree of ketosis by playing with the fat/carb ratios. 55% fat/ 30% protein is certainly sufficient to produce elevated levels of ketones (my wife’s are slightly elevated on 40% fat from nuts, and 45% carbs).

            Having said that the idea of a ‘low fat, low carb’ ketosis-producing diet is a real laugher. Since when has 55% fat become ‘low fat’? Lots of advertising gimmicks on the web.

            Different diets can put you into Some people say the Atkins diet is ketogenic but the Atkins people, no doubt for advertising purposes, differentiate the two, it seems

            1. “Different diets can put you into Some people say the Atkins diet is ketogenic but the Atkins people, no doubt for advertising purposes, differentiate the two, it seems”. ==>>>

              Mentally delete. Verbal trash I did not catch in the small editing window.

  3. I like eating Plant Based Whole Foods. Everyone I know who started eating this way lost weight to a healthy level, and even went off meds for lifestyle conditions or diseases such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, etc. (I never had any meds to go off of, but I haven’t started any, either.) And all the evidence supports this way of eating as one of the healthiest, if the not the healthiest. Plus, it’s simple, and the food is great.

    And it’s not a “diet,” it’s an eating habit for life.

    Works for me.

  4. Yea the keto diet is terrible! “Pure muscle loss.” Thats why after a year I lost 100 pounds of fat and I’m stronger, faster, and most important I’m no longer pre diabetic. Just like anything you can’t do the trash version of it and say it’s science. I ate salads and meat, boring but effective for my fast burn. More important than any diet get surgar out of your life and you will feel better and more likely loose weight with excercise, keto diet or not.

  5. Aside from potential sustainability and moral issues, my main concern regarding high fat diets is that the liver may get overwhelmed eventually in everybody although there are probably individual differences in when this will occur.

    PS: I was quite shocked to learn that the high demand for coconut oil has created situations where monkey ‘slaves’ are abused for harvest.

    1. …monkey ‘slaves’ are abused for harvest…
      —————————————————————-
      I think Wall Street reported the monkey jobless rate decreased dramatically because of this, after the latest “Monkey Jobless Report”. They viewed this as a positive and sent companies involved in Coconut oil production into “out-perform” territory.

      An added benefit was that monkey-on-monkey crime dropped dramatically after the employment numbers increased. ‘-)

        1. Sorry Gengo… didn’t know there were any Monkey’s Uncles here or I would have abstained. ‘-)

          (Even though having them trained to drop coconuts doesn’t really equate with abuse, is my world. ‘-)

          1. Lonie flippantly dismisses any abuse of small monkeys forced to harvest coconuts. Didn’t bother to read that the mothers are shot then babies taken, shackled and caged all day with no socialisation (despite being an intelligent social species) and forced to work long hard hours until they faint from exhaustion. Yes that’s HILARIOUS! I’m ROTFLMAO at animal cruelty, isolation and environmental destruction of their habitat too

            1. Didn’t bother to read that the mothers are shot then babies taken, shackled and caged all day with no socialisation (despite being an intelligent social species) and forced to work long hard hours until they faint from exhaustion.
              ——————————————————————————————————————–
              Didn’t read the link. For the record, I’m against animal cruelty.

              My second response was flippant because Gengo put me in the same category as a child abuser. I refused to be put on the defensive so I answered in the manner I did.

              OBTW, I have no (known) children and I do not work child labor.

              1. Aw, come on Lonie. I did not put you into the same category as a child abuser or an animal abuser. I was quite certain you are neither. I realized you were merely making one of your witty jokes, and questioned the appropriateness of that joke by making the equation, which expresses my belief on those issues, and asking a rhetorical question.

                Peace!

                1. …and asking a rhetorical question.
                  ———————————————-
                  a well-worded rhetorical can work like ricin. ‘-)

                  (But I’m sure you meant no harm, so yes… Peace)

        1. LOL love your sense of humor!
          ———————————————
          Thank you again Debra, especially for recognizing that my words were meant as comic relief. ‘-)

    1. I am always curious about people’s lipid profile on a Keto diet
      —————————————————————————
      Initially it should go up (if not consuming a lot of saturated fats) due to more stored fat moving to the liver. In that situation it should level off when much of the body fat has been turned into ketone energy. It is my opinion that a ketone weighted body fuel composition should also include a form of caloric restriction.

      When the body fat has been lowered and one returns to a glucose/ketone mix, then one also has to be aware that the metabolism is in somewhat of a starvation mode and should adjust their eating back to smaller plate sizes… and healthier restaurant meals.

    2. I have tried. I had poor lipid profile. Just after 2 months, lipid profile parameters were all normal. First time in 30 years….

    3. Karen A, this is n=1: when I did the Paleo diet with intermittent Keto cycles for 14 years, my total cholesterol bounced between 290 to 340. I ignored the doctor’s insistence for meds, believing the claim that “cholesterol doesn’t matter.” Finally when I was diagnosed with cancer of the sigmoid colon and had surgery, I was told about the association between colon cancer and high cholesterol, which was how I stumbled onto NutritionFacts.org. After 6 months of eating WFPB, as part of my elaborate, vigilant screening protocol, I found out that (as a side effect of the diet) my total cholesterol had dropped from over 300 to 167.

      Another good side effect is that I’m leaner than I’ve ever been in my life without trying. Perhaps something about regular bowl movements of 2-3 times a day. Who knows, but my diet has become less restrictive as I’m enjoying an exponentially greater variations of food.

      1. Congratulations, JNN!

        Yeah, I used to watch videos of some of the chiropractors who were saying that cholesterol didn’t matter, but after several months, the one I was watching looked less and less healthy and that moved to more and more unhealthy.

        He started looking horrible and then he started just videotaping his head, rather than his body and he started looking almost crazy doing it that way.

        I say, “Crazy” without thinking he was crazy at all. He just started looking like a floating head all of the time and it was so absurd.

        Maybe absurd is the better word.

    4. Karen

      I think it depends on whether weight loss accompanies the diet. Weight loss will usually result in an improved lipid profile. People going keto and losing weight will often see improved lipids.

      Alos, if people are making other lifestyle changes such as exercising more, this can also result in improved lipid profiles.

      However, a number of people have reported soaring cholesterol levels on such diets. It’s one reason why many low varb/keto advocates try to tell us that high cholesterol levels are not a risk factor for heart disease.

    5. Mine improved. My triglycerides went down by almost half (from around 120 to around 60). My HDL went up significantly (from around 70 to around 90). The ratio of triglycerides to HDL is an important indicator of metabolic and cardiac health. Less than 1 (one) is ideal. All this happened while my total cholesterol remained stable at around 145. I was pleasantly surprised, expecting a horrible lipid profile on keto.

  6. Dr G

    I appreciate your policies and generous serviceI

    I have a general comment about the verbal delivery.

    Essentially article statements
    are being read from texts with deliberate pauses, accelerations and chummy “ums” and “ers” inserted for effect – as if all of it was spontaneously conversational

    It comes off as artificial and, to me at least, distracting and even a bit irritating

    Try doing it straight …

    Warmth

    JHA

  7. In this light, I find this small-scale research highly interesting:

    Pantothenic Acid as a Weight-Reducing Agent: Fasting Without Hunger, Weakness and Ketosis (L.H. Leung), Medical Hypotheses (1995)44, 403-405.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8583972

    Briefly, vitamin B5 burns along with fat in your mitochondria, and having enough of it avoids ketosis while fasting. And, because B5 is also needed to suppress feelings of stress and anxiety, fasters also did not suffer from mood swings. Leung tried it and found it to work.

    I would not take the pills though, but instead opt for sweet potatoes, mushrooms, sweet/hot peppers, sunflower seeds. Might even wait until the mood starts going down. The body controls how fast it phosphyrylates (activates) B5 anyway based on how much it sees being free. Once taken up in the mitochondria it’s gone and a new batch can be phosphorylated. This has not been tested, I think.

    1. Briefly, vitamin B5 burns along with fat in your mitochondria, and having enough of it avoids ketosis while fasting. And, because B5 is also needed to suppress feelings of stress and anxiety, fasters also did not suffer from mood swings. Leung tried it and found it to work.
      ——————————————————————————————————————————————————–
      As someone who fasts on occasion, I find this very interesting. Thanks for posting.

  8. It is all about proper pH, gut health and whole foods. Proper pH allows us to be properly grounded. Gut health transforms food into our preventive medicine. Whole foods are our proper fuel.
    It is not about dieting. It is a lifestyle change back to the way we were intended to live.
    The world wants us dead or sick.

  9. @warneharvey

    Your point about weight loss is valid. As to your quip that vegans aren’t interested to hear of your experience (congrats on losing 70 lbs… hard to do regardless of how you do it), that’s a pretty broad brush to use and the same comment works for those committed to a diet founded on eating flesh, milk and eggs.

    In fact, I also have lost 70 lbs… the first 35 lbs on a dairy and egg heavy “vegetarian” diet where I plateaued for years and then the remaining 35 lbs (and counting) on a SOS-free WF-vegan diet.

    As your experience and the research Dr Greger highlighted in his video, a keto-diet does “work”, but was shown to cause muscle loss in at least some of the cases. I have to think that effectiveness of diets in general involves both thermodynamics AND psychology. The thing that helped me make the transition over to a vegan diet five years ago (even though I had no idea how to do it well in the beginning) was that I knew that my choice to eat only plants not only reduced demand for food that involves inhumane keeping and killing of stock animals, but that it was better for the planet with respect to land use and global warming. I have friends who wax orgiastically about the delights of bacon, of pig ribs, of grilled chicken flesh, of cow flesh, of cheese, of ice cream, of Thanksgiving turkeys, etc and I have to think that focus on the delight those foods give their tongues gives them the ability to stick to their regimens.

    The research I would be interested in seeing would be how the cadavers of WF-PB (& SOS-free) eaters and Keto diet eaters cardio-vascular systems and visceral fat loads compare after extended living on both approaches. This sort of investigation was done fallen soldiers’ cardiovascular systems were compared after they died in the Korean (?) and Vietnam wars and showed that the Standard American Diet had induced extensive coronary artery disease
    (8 in 10).

    Given your commitment to the keto-diet approach, I do have to wonder what your purpose in posting was here besides trying to denigrate folks who chose to eat plant-based diets informed by science

    1. Given your commitment to the keto-diet approach, I do have to wonder what your purpose in posting was here besides trying to denigrate folks who chose to eat plant-based diets informed by science
      ——————————————————————————————————–
      Ummm… I think like you he was moved to defend his approach rather than to denigrate.

      Kinda the same with me as I think this example of Dr. G denigrating the study rather than just reporting its failure gave the appearance of using this one example as a blanket disparaging of any and all keto regimens.

    2. Not trying to denigrate anyone, just pointing out that the population is not monolithic and there are numerous polymorphisms in the general population. Some people eat whatever and appear to suffer nothing, others look at a carb and gain 2 pounds (pun). All the vegans I have ever met view Keto as a horrific sin. It isn’t about our feelings, it is about what works. I live with WFPB diet now but I can assure you while I was Keto I was not loosing muscle as my gym time saw to

      As to blood work, it got worse and then better exactly as described by Dr. Atkin’s. Can’t say I will know what works for the next person, but I do know what worked for me and my brother.

  10. Until someone can PROVE with evidence based science… instead of opinion and anecdote… that another diet besides WFPB can prevent, halt and even reverse our top killer diseases, as has been proven again and again, you are playing Russian roulette with your long term health. Your option of course, but know there are a lot of unhealthy choices that can actually make your current “numbers” look better… cocaine, cancer, chemo…

  11. I advise a diet that incorporates principally mostly nonstarchy vegetables and some fruits ( mainly berries), nuts, some fish and seafood, some eggs and dairy etc, with only little in the way of natural starches in roots and fruits, but strictly cutting out sugar and refined carbohydrates.

    This is quite a low carb but not a no carb diet ..

    I think the diet in the study is too heroically ketogenic — yes there are peoples that traditionally had survived well on such eg the Inuit or Masai but they were both traditionally very physically active as well …

      1. The Inuit are not a longevity community.

        On top of that they have genetic reasons they can’t go into ketosis.

        They die younger than the people’s surrounding them.

        They are not a diet to model.

        1. Yes, Deb, I agree the traditional Inuit diet is not a good model, especially if you are not an Inuit, i.e. genetically adapted to process fat differently (the point I was trying to make).

    1. Thank goodness my doctor took the time and effort to educate himself about plant based diets. He made the recommendation to me to stop consuming dairy products over 10 years ago, and the other harmful animal products, like eggs too, soon afterwards. My IBS, allergies, cystitis, gone. We just don’t have a reason to be suckling on another mammal’s secretions. Disgusting.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/dairy/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/eggs/

  12. I have been a vegetarian for 46 years. Most of that time my BMI was over 40. Years of that time were spent being vegan. As I approach age 65, I decided to flip it. I did a vegetarian ketogenic diet beginning in early 2017. Over two years, I lost 80 pounds. I am now trying to find the right combination of foods to return to more plant-based eating, but I am struggling. I have regained 25 pounds, as I am trying to reintroduce, fruit, root vegetables, beans, and whole grains. The struggle is real. By the way, on heavy egg and dairy-based keto, I thought my biomarkers would suffer. They did not. Instead they improved. Total cholesterol stayed the same (around 145). HDL went from 68 to 91. LDL stayed around the same at around 45. But: BOOM. Triglycerides went from 121 to 62. My blood pressure stayed the same. All this while eating around 75% calories from fat. I would not have guessed that.

  13. I am curious about those (including myself) who have over a period of a year or two lost 70 to 100 pounds and more on KD. Is it possible that that was all water weight? I’d have a difficult time thinking so. Now, I’m glad for those of my friends who have gotten themselves a new body and a new life as a result of their extreme weight loss, and I’m happy with my own much more slender self, though only about 60-65 lbs. of it was on the KD, the rest from eating a combination of much less and switching to a WFPB diet. I eat less because I have become seriously ill with liver cirrhosis, high potassium levels and digestive issues and gluten sensitivity that demand curtailment of even some of the healthy plant foods I was having. It is my desire to continue the plants lifestyle. I have to wonder about my beloved friends who claim they will be keto-ers for life. How many of them will stress their livers too much and their life expectancy be greatly shortened? I have to say that Dr. G’s description of the KD is not anything like what I once followed though. 80% fat? No way. I would not have been accepted into any serious keto club because I didn’t try to stay in ketosis. I did lots of intermittent fasting, which was probably mostly what helped in my weight loss. However, all during the duration of my KD, I had a nagging sense of this not being a healthy “woe” (quite aptly named, I would say). Especially considering what was given to man to eat in the very beginning (basically plants, herbs bearing seed). Yes, meats were given after the flood, but we have to also recognize that the meat was nothing like what’s available to most of us today. In fact, probably most plants aren’t either. But they are plants. I try to avoid wheat except for einkorn, which I get precious little of because it is cost-prohibitive. At any rate, I’d love to hear from others who are having the same questions, or answers to them.

    1. Naomi,

      Years ago, I did Atkins and because I didn’t even like fruit or vegetables, it ended up mostly being a carnivore diet and I thought about it recently and if I had stayed with it, which I couldn’t, 50,000 or more animals would have died for me.

      Doing that math deeply affected me.

      Use refer to the flood and, this will bug the atheists, but as a Christian, I had to do a process within my faith and I did a WWJD process and I really thought about the whole Bible and how it presents mankind as being given a vegan diet at the beginning. Then, we have that fall of man business and after the flood, suddenly mankind is allowed to eat meat. By the end, the lion is laying down next to the lamb and mankind is vegan again. In the wilderness, the people are taken off meat and it is more about God wanting to take the diseases of the nations off of His people. God allows freedom of choice and He allows things like divorce based on the hardness of mankind’s heart and I am convinced that eating animals falls within that category. He emphasizes plant food as medicine and in the book of Daniel, the emphasis is not eating meats and sweets and not becoming addicted to the diet of the wealthy kings and not being gluttonous, etc.

      Freedom of choice is obviously the way things work, but with the emphasis on just because things are permissible, doesn’t make them profitable and the emphasis is on being a temple of God and taking care of that temple.

      Anyway, for everybody else, it is not about any of you. There are millions of Christians out there who need to resolve this issue for ourselves and the whole “conscience” is a big part of our walks. If we feel convicted inwardly about our behavior, we need to examine it and live within our conscience and, honestly, I don’t want to have animals killed or abused for me and I do feel inwardly convicted about it.

      There is also the issue of stewardship of the earth, which is a theme and it is one which Christians don’t always look at and we should be models of the best behaviors, but we aren’t always.

      1. I genuinely have become more sensitive in my conscience since going vegan.

        Mic the Vegan spoke about how after going vegan you don’t have to deaden your emotions about animals and it is the truth.

        That sensitivity has spilled over onto my life.

        I ended up doing a fearless moral inventory tonight and I feel like whenever we have a major area where we are living against our moral compass, often we shut down in other areas.

        Drug addicts and alcoholics and food addicts, etc. shut down in so many areas. Not just their pet addiction.

        I feel like I could go off the topic of addiction and do recycling as an example. My state is forcing people to look at shopping bags. You can still get plastic bags but it costs a dime. That is the monetary cost, but knowing the cost to the world and not responding on the inside has a much deeper cost, which because the financial cost is so cheap, you might not know the cost to your soul until you face it.

        My generation grew up generating trash and I can look at art like The Trash People and know that my conscience is not clear in my history and it is not always clear in my present, but the Christian view which guides me is, “There is now no condemnation” but there is also the imperative to not take advantage of that grace and there is the imperative to clean up our lives.

        Earth stewardship wasn’t the topic when I was young.

        I am not going to dwell on guilt but I am looking at the concept of let them who steal, steal no longer as something that maybe is something a mediocre steward of the world might think about. Our generations are stealing the future from other generations and from the animals for the lusts of our flesh.

        1. I found so many things that I do that really do come against my conscience and I feel like things like eating and world stewardship are two but I also have been spending too much money on food and I have been buying things that don’t require skill or time to make myself.

          I ended up working most of this weekend and really facing myself and this walk has helped me to start pulling one or two of the logs out of my own eyes about things.

          1. Clothing was another which pricked my conscience and I don’t have debt, but I have so many tops and I saw Dr Gregers green shirt and he is frugal.

            Again, it is mostly facing how long my list of things which just came up this week where I am living outside my conscience and I feel like I understand the Bible verses about that topic for the first time, where the Apostle Paul makes it personal where some people could eat the meat sacrificed to idols and if it was weighing on the conscience then it was a sin to that person and at a practical level, the stress generated from not listening to your own conscience is so incredible.

            Some people here can eat fish or meat and it won’t affect their conscience at all and other people will have that one decision prick their conscience in so many ways that it even would harm their heart and mind doing it.

            1. If I feel guilty or conflicted about eating meat, then suddenly without even trying, I end up creating all of these justifications and start lying to myself and maybe get angry with myself or defensive and angry with other people and my spiritual walk is a Bible concept of, nope, it is sin for me, even if it isn’t sin for someone else.

              A child does the “Its not fair.” If a parent treats one child differently, but trying to walk out WFPB within my spiritual walk, I see so clearly that it will hurt me in so many ways even subconsciously and in my conscience and in how I handle my relationships even if I am not authentic about my Christianity and my veganism here and that would be the same if someone else hates veganism and hates Christianity, which I know so many of you hate both and if I tried to control you and force you to not be authentic, it would harm your health and your mind and soul and you would end up wearing a mask of some sort or I would and it would harm us emotionally and physically and possibly our health.

  14. My northern European heritage traditionally ate red meat, reindeer, moose, bear, cariboo, beaver, wolf, wild birds, wild eggs when the birds were nesting, and fish both fresh water and saltwater fish, whales, seals etc. One cup of saturated fat was rendered per day per person and that was drank. Failure to drink the fat caused failure to thrive. Traditionally there were very few vegetables beyond root vegetables like rutabaga, turnips, radish, carrots and more recently potatoes. Virtually no fresh vegetables/salads out of a 6-8 week season. Fruit was eaten when the berries ripened on the tundra for the varied berries that would last 3-4 weeks. There were no fresh vegetables/wild greens or fruits after September. My extremely large maternal family had/has a history of 80% living between the ages of 100 and 105. The main carbohydrate was rye bread made from salt and water and rye.

    The study referred to here brings on a lot of questions. Were the people eating modern manufactured oils (designed by the foods scientists working for food companies), like canola, soy, etc.? Were they eating horrific peanut oil (which is not a nut)? OR were they eating healthy saturated fats (unprocessed butter, natural duck, tallow or lard) or healthful nut oils for salads (olive, avocado, grapeseed, coconut, walnut,etc.) Warning – some nut oils are harmful. Please research before veering from those mentioned above. Take caution on any oils that are derived from grains.

    I had fatty liver from eating all the usual manufactured oils that one can buy at the supermarket. After researching what to do about it and my heritage, I decided to switch to consuming only saturated fat and nut oils, without decreasing my consumption of fats. Six months later my scan showed striking decrease in fatty liver to negligible. I use unprocessed lard, tallow and duck fat from a reputable butcher. I also use ghee for cooking. I used healthful nut oils for my salad dressings.

    One needs to be careful of these kinds of studies. They can be designed either maliciously or otherwise to fail. Scientists have been known to tell only tell half truths to sway opinion. One such example, pharma will tell you that artificial vitamins are exact to real vitamins. The truth of the matter is complicated but they are not identical thanks to isomers. Isomers are structures used to build something. An analogy – two houses side by side look absolutely identical. However, one used steel beams to create walls, one used wood. Are the houses identical? Of course not. Many scientists over many years at various universities have tried to get permission/funding to do research to see if isomers interfere with or change the usefulness or function of natural vs synthetic. In any event no one has been permitted or given funding to do such studies. The cost to do these studies is not prohibitive but universities could potentially lose support from big pharma if they approved the studies. Can you imagine if it was found that synthetic isomers vs natural isomers were harmful. Ex. Vitamin C (Natural) vs Ascorbic Acid (synthetic). What about naturally sourced fats vs these manufactured fats? What about their isomers?

    I would like to see a similar study doing a comparison between naturally sourced fats and manufactured fats. For millennia people were ketogenic. Only that last 4,000-10,000 years (depending on the civilization) did humans have agriculture. Our bodies were never designed to eat highly processed and manufactured foods that food scientists funded by agriculture/food manufacturers have created. The people who designed this study should have known that natural is best.

    It is known that when a person eats zero carbohydrate – like my ancestors – the liver creates the EXACT amount of carbohydrate that the body needs. We also know that prior to commercial sugar and agriculture almost all people on earth were in a ketogenic state. Our bodies and our brains are actually designed for the ketones that feed the cells when all is in balance. Glucose replaces the ketones when there are none. How that has come be accepted by doctors and scientists as the bodies preferred food is remarkable. Glucose consumption is the primary cause of diabetes!

    Is it possible that the thinning of the leg muscle is actually the disappearance of intramuscular fat not reduction of muscle itself?

    1. Just read a number of posts and was surprised that nearly all accepted the “wisdom” of this documentary. No one is questioning the efficacy of the plant based diet. Before the 1930’s all vegetarian societies ate some form of animal/insect protein that included dairy, fish or eggs (and insects). It was recognized within the various communities that these proteins were necessary to thrive. Questions that need to be asked are how does vegetarianism affect fertility. Only 30% of males in Switzerland between the ages of 18 and 24 are fertile now. No one is doing research on why the infertility rates in North America and Europe are declining. https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/10/sperm-counts-continue-to-fall/572794/ Read about glyphosate – a suspected neurotoxin is now insidiously in all ground, river and ocean water so much so that organic vegetables now have glyphosate. Eating phytoestrogens early in life is known to cause breast cancer in adult females. (In the last 50 years female breast cancer has gone from 2 women in 100 to now 8 out of a 100 will have breast cancer in their lifetimes!) What about future generations? Could an entirely plant based diet participate in changing our dna permanently for and in future generations? Selfishly we are looking at how a plant based diet affects us personally and now at the whole ecosystems. How many hectares of forests are being destroyed to accommodate plant based agriculture?

      1. Hanne
        ‘ How many hectares of forests are being destroyed to accommodate plant based agriculture?’

        This is an absurd fantasy promoted by cranks on the internet. The answer is far fewer than is being destroyed to accommodate naimal based abriculture.

        Vegetarian diets use far less land than animal agriculture. The vast majority of soy and corn is grown for animal feed eg
        https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/coexistence-soybeans-factsheet.pdf
        https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn-and-other-feedgrains/feedgrains-sector-at-a-glance/

        If tere was no animal agriculture, the amount of land under cultivation would plummet and Big Big Grain and Big Soy would face bankruptcy.

        You are being sold a bill of goods with all these flights of fancy you keep posting here. I know that there are sites on the internet that make these claims but just because plausible, photogenic internet marketers with websites and YouTube videos make a claim, doesn’t mean that it is true.

    2. Hanne, you bring up a point that Dr. Longo mentions in his book ‘The Longevity Diet’. He recommends that people eat foods that were included in their ancestral diet. But he still does not recommend high protein or high saturated fat.
      Yes, highly processed vegetable oils are inflammatory. I learned that testing them in the lab. However, I have to admit, good quality olive oil did not have peroxide values like the soybean, corn, etc. It does not oxidize easily if it’s not heated.

      I agree that northern populations in particular, are adapted to cyclic semi-starvation during long winters. Cold weather burns more calories, food is scarce. And no one’s ancestors had big markets and fast food joints around every corner. Nor did they have soda or access to a lot of sugar. They also worked hard.

      Perhaps the most lethal combination is the modern lifestyle of little exercise, highly processed foods, bad fats and too many calories?
      But your family’s history does not mean that saturated fat is healthy for everyone. As we now know with the science on the ApoE gene, for example, not everyone handles saturated fats in the same way.
      WFPB diet, and sitting less, is the best answer for most people.

    3. Hanne

      What Northern European heritage is that then? Lapp reindeer herders?

      The early European hunter gatherer population was almost completely replaced by Middle Eastern farming peoples and newcomers from the Eurasian steppes.thousand of years ago
      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180130090844.htm

      The remaining Northern hunter gatherer peoples – Inuit and subArctic Siberian tribes – are all relatively dark skinned. Northern Europeans are light skinned. This is thought to be because the Inuit etc got plenty of vitamin d from fish and other animal foods. Europeans however didn’t and instead evolved a light skin on a grain based diet so they could get enough vitamin D. The same thing presumably occurred wit Northern Chinese and Koreans who also evolved on grain based diets and have light skins.
      https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/03/europeans-evolved-to-eat-more-vegetables-several-thousand-years-ago/

      if you are of European heritage, so the theory goes, then you are genetically adapted to a grain and vegetables diet.

    4. Hanne: I do vegetarian keto and now low-carb. I think most of the benefit comes from keeping carbs low. Tinkering with ingredients like plant-based oils is probably less important. It takes privilege to eat a “pure” diet, and I’m not sure it’s necessary.

  15. Dr Greger is not against Keto – he is FOR Scientific evidence. Here he is reporting the science which was funded by a foundation set up to “prove” the keto diet works. The science instead provides strong, convincing evidence it does NOT work. Strong enough evidence to remove any reasonable doubt. This is not Dr Greger’s opinion, nor a half baked theory from oversimplifying or misunderstanding high school biology class, nor a deliberate or accidental misinterpretation of the science, nor bias in choosing which study to look at, nor any other claim that the people selling the keto diet will use to “debunk” their “critics”. Just evidence AGAINST the keto diet as a good way to lose weight. As for the long term health “benefits” of a keto diet, the Inuit are just about the only people to gain a longer life expectancy on the Standard American Diet – which suggests that the keto diet will shorten your life, not extend it.

    Beware of taking advice from trim, muscular youths (including yourself if you are one!) – young bodies are very resilient to abuse (or at least mine was). There’s an old saying that goes something like “you spend the first forty years of your life abusing your body, and the next forty trying to undo the damage”. Better to emulate the people who live long, active, disease free lives (like those in the Blue Zones).

    There is so much scientific evidence for the (short and long term) benefits of a Whole Food Plant Based diet, that looking for “alternative” diets is like looking for an alternative planet to live on because you don’t like Earth. Life is too short and precious to waste it experimenting on yourself because you disagree with the evidence. Damaging your health proves nothing. Encouraging others to damage their health, by using anecdotes (even personal ones) to argue against peer reviewed science, borders on unethical.

    1. 1. So true!!….also my experience.
      I tried so many …..of these experiments on myself…but like with any dogmas or religious believe can be misleading.
      Agree ….100%

      2. At 65 I am so healthy and happy with a WPBD, and so clear about all the abuse I put my body on…. It’s been over for the last 10 years.

      3. The whole “pseudo” controversy….is just ridiculous.
      It’s been going 70 years in the US..(or more after the Big Pharma took over the health main-stream narrative in the US & the West… o..every 20/30 years reappeared, this version of capitalism is too precarious and is showing .. in this “false controversy” )

  16. @Lonie: The difference, I’m not over at “KetoFacts[.]org” making comments about how the keto diet followers aren’t interested in hearing facts about how well whole food-plant based diets work

    1. @Lonie: The difference, I’m not over at “KetoFacts[.]org” making comments about how the keto diet followers aren’t interested in hearing facts about how well whole food-plant based diets work
      —————————————————————-
      Fair point.

  17. This study didn’t answer what I think is the real question. What if some fat in the diet results in people being more satiated so they eat less calories?
    Why have so many people become obese? The answer is most likely a combination of many factors. That 400 extra calories a day, year after year, certainly can explain it!

    1. Ari,yn,
      >>>What if some fat in the diet results in people being more satiated so they eat less calories?

      Right. This was one of my speculations in my reply to warneharvey. The other was that perhaps eating a high fat diet can help people break a sugar addiction, and so eat fewer calories in total.

  18. Critics of ketogenic diets disparage the high fat versions, particularly Atkins, without appreciating low fat , even vegetarian, versions exist as well. Moreover it is important to realise such diets, or elements thereto, have been around a long time. Think Scarsdale and the Carbohydrate Addict’s Diet, for instance, while here in Canada, the medically supervised Bernstein Diet has been around for decades.

    Such diets, for targeted purposes such as weight loss, have proven efficacious. I understand it may have applications in other fields as well. This suggests the ketogenic diet may prove useful as yet another tool in an expanding toolbox of dietary approaches to improved human health.

    1. Margaret

      You confuse me. There is no such thing as a low-fat keto diet. There may be charlatans selling fad diets on the intnet who claim this but a ketogenic diet is a diet which iduces ketosis. By definition it is a high fat diet.

      ‘ketogenic diet
      one containing large amounts of fat, with minimal amounts of protein and carbohydrate. The object of such a diet is to produce ketosis’
      https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ketogenic

      You seem to be talking about low carb diets. These were debunked years ago …. but give them a cool new name, and off we go again.

  19. This is poorly researched as it assumes that all ketogenic diets are high in fat. This is not the case. On a low carb, adequate protein and low fat diet protocol, most people lose significant amounts of fat while largely sparing muscle mass. I see that this was not considered in this article.

    1. Duh?

      Of course all ketogenic diets are high in fat. They have to be to induce ketosis. That’s what ketogenic diet means – a diet that induces ketosis.

  20. Having struggled with weight for 20yrs my health was deteriorating. High cholesterol 12 type 2 bloods of 20 regular.

    I ate a mixed diet lots of greens fruit, very lean white meat. Some sugar treats but not excessive. Lots of excerise so net Cal’s healthy range.

    I have tried keto for 6 months.

    My metrics have all jumped close to perfection.

    I eat more than before although a more fat based diet.

    Cholesterol 4.6 bloods now 4.4-5 range. Resting heart rate droped 15 beats per.minute.

    My skin has improved immeasurably.

    5st shifted and now into 34 waist.

    I stopped all medication when I started stations and Metformin etc

    I have tried all the popular diets and nothing comes close to the health metrics seen on the keto.

    Changed my life.

    1. Great that you lost weight! I would suggest getting a scan of your arteries annually to make sure plaques do not get worse. Heart attacks and strokes take decades to manifest. Under the current science it would be suspected unless you are keeping saturated fat low.

  21. To me, it all seems so simple.
    The results of this are exactly what I have expected and would expect from a Keto / Atkins / Paleo restrictive diet.

    If our body switches to burning fat and utilizes ketones instead of carbs, it’s because it’s in starvation mode. Meaning, in the million years before we had a McDonald’s on every street corner, we had times of feast and famine, and when famine hit, and we didn’t have food, our body needed a different way to keep us alive.

    So, while the body is miraculous in finding another way to keep us breathing and upright, it also needs to MAKE IT LAST. The source of energy is coming directly from our body, not from the outside, no longer from corn and bananas, so it would be deadly and detrimental to burn up our energy source inside our bodies quickly.

    Which means, it would slow down the energy using process, slow down the burning of our own fat and body mass, in order to extend the amount of time we can survive in starvation until another carbohydrate hit appears.

    Honestly, it seems like such a basic thing, I find it hard to listen to Keto / Atkins / Paleo people spout off all their unfounded beliefs about it.

    The most important point that Dr. Greger makes is the thing that’s missed when people talk about how many calories they burn and the fat they lose, it’s that, yep, YOU ARE EATING A TON MORE FAT and CALORIES as well – AT THE SAME TIME.

    Meanwhile the body slows, thinking it’s starving, and needing for evolutions sake, to keep you alive as long as possible, it ends up storing more fat and burning less than you would have, had you just stuck to eating apples and sweet potatoes.

  22. For weight loss I think there are many things you can do, but it comes down to calories.

    If you’re not taking the calories, then you’re not going to gain weight. Some people may argue that, but that’s basic nutrition.

    There are a lot of variations on theme.

    If you get all the

    minerals
    vitamins
    amino acids
    essential fatty acids

    then you’re doing well. That doesn’t mean that you have to load up on calories, one has to eat nutrient dense food.

    One can get all their minerals in salt form, like pink Himalayan sea salt or Celtic Sea salt, the rest of the nutrition one gets should be in food form, like calcium from red algae.

    1. The amoint of minerals in overhyped junk like Himalyan salt is minuscule. They will never meet anybody;s need for minerals.

      The people who sell and promote this stuff always go on about the very tiny amounts of ‘good’ stuff in this salt. Strangely, they never mention the lead, arsenic, uranium,radium and other toxic elements in this salt. I wonder why?
      https://themeadow.com/pages/minerals-in-himalayan-pink-salt-spectral-analysis

      The fact is that it’s just like any other salt – it contains large amounts of sodium which is aleady consumed to excess in Western diets

  23. Once again, i find the lack of specificity when it comes to defining just what a keto diet is in this context frustrating. A basic definition would be useful.

    1. A ketogenic diet is a diet which induces ketosis eg
      ‘ketogenic diet
      one containing large amounts of fat, with minimal amounts of protein and carbohydrate. The object of such a diet is to produce ketosis.’
      https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/ketogenic

      However, never underestimate the willingness of internet and other marketers to twist the facts to their financial advantage and rebrand their old quasi Atkins or low carb diet as a cool. modern ‘keto diets’. Or the willingness of people who just want a licence to eat fatty foods to believe that these diets are safer than old fashioned Atkins and low carb diets.

  24. Well, today is an interesting day for me and I am thinking about this topic.

    The good news was that I went down the 1/2″ on my waist and hips finally and I officially lost a clothes size.

    My friend who lost 50 pounds, but who has the worst lab results her doctor has ever seen eats a lot of fat.

    I have never heard her speak about Keto. I think she is eating the fats because she listened to Gundry and sees all of the foods I eat as anti-nutrition.

    She has out-of-control Diabetes even after losing 50 pounds. I reversed all of my disease symptoms and didn’t lose all that much.

    Up until her doctor’s appointment, it seemed obvious that I was the one doing the wrong process.

    She sees beans and soy and potatoes and nightshades as fattening.

    The concept that they really are losing maybe even more weight, but are still getting fatter and are losing lean is something they won’t understand at all.

    They don’t have someone measuring how much fat they gained or how much lean they lost, so the scale is their only real tool.

    1. George,
      I’m 72 and am concerned with that because I am very slim and don’t put on muscle mass easily.

      In addition to Barb’s suggestions, I recommend also checking out
      https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/sarcopenia-of-aging-loss-of-muscle-size-and-strength.html

      “Sarcopenia of aging is found with other conditions associated with inflammation, including:
      • having excess body fat (J Gerontology A Biol Sci Med Sci, 2011;66:888-895; Curr Gerontol Geriatr Res, 2012;2012:216185)
      • eating a pro-inflammatory diet that raises blood sugar levels (J Gerontology A Biol Sci Med Sci, Jan 2012;67A(1):74-81)
      • being diabetic (Med J Aust, 2016;205(7):329-333)
      • having low vitamin D levels (Molecular Aspects of Medicine, Dec 2008;29(6):407-4140)
      • not exercising
      • having any chronic disease”

      The core of the problem is lose of motor neurons. Note especially that inactivity results in rapid muscle loss and that physical activity can slow loss. Strength training is an essential part of combating sarcopenia. This is especially important after age 70 when muscle loss tends to accelerate (but starts at a slower rate after about age 40).

      “Resistance exercise can increase muscle size and strength in older people (Med Sci Sports Exerc, 2011;43 (2):249-58), but with aging you need to work much longer to gain the amount of strength that a younger person would get with the same program (Med Sci Sports Exerc, 2011;43(2):249-58). Since lifting lighter weights many times is less likely to cause injuries, I recommend lifting lighter weights with more repetitions.”

      “Eighty-year-old men who still compete in sports have been found to have more muscle fibers than inactive younger men (Journal of Applied Physiology, March 24, 2016). At this time the most effective way to decrease the rate at which you lose muscle size and function is to exercise regularly.”

      See his recommendations.

  25. I am 74, had quadruple bypass surgery 9 years ago, and have a pacemaker. I am convinced my heart problems were self induced based on my high meat/fat diet. I became vegan 4 years ago after stumbling across the writings of Dr. Esselstyn and at the same time I started exercising at least 1 1/2 hours per day initially for health and continue because I love it. I have a terrific cardiologist who believes in exercise and has told me the more the better. I have lost 90 pounds,my lipid profile is excellent, and I am the oldest but not the weakest nor slowest in my cross fit class . Once in a while, every 6 weeks or so, I will eat meat, usually a hamburger or steak in a social setting, because I enjoy it.. I feel terrific physically all of the time, period,except when I first get up in the morning and am always stiff which goes away with the first pushup. .

    I do not believe my way to health is the only way, and I won’t argue that being a vegan is the only healthy diet. I certainly won’t call anyone immoral for eating meat. I don’t evangelize for veganism. However, when people ask me how I am so active and healthy at my age and why I appear so happy, I share my veganism and Christian beliefs and make it clear they might want to try it for themselves. Many do and I enjoy providing advice if requested. What I do believe is attacks on other ways of eating and thinking, often by individuals who look emaciated and unhealthy, is not the way to convince others of what I believe is a healthy way of living and eating. My advice, provide the science, and then get out of the way and leave the bickering to others.

  26. Hello,

    I was wondering if you could do an episode of your podcast about nutrition labels, especially on meat (for example the 80/20 labels on beef). I feel they are very misleading to the average consumer. If you have already done a show about this in the past, please refer me to where I can get more info!

    Thanks

  27. KETO does not have to include animal products. I had substantial weight loss success on KETO, my blood work improved, and I felt great doing it, but acknowledge that maybe I would have had better fat loss just cutting calories – at least based on the information Dr G is providing. I no longer eat meat and work to not eat animal products at all.

    However, one of the benefits of a KETO diet is appetite control. While I don’t know the science behind my appetite, I do know the following is true: If I have a dessert after a late dinner, all else being equal (same dinner) I wake up with a ravenous appetite that seems to linger into the next evening – though normally I don’t eat breakfast because I’m not hungry in the morning.

    For some reason, sugar or foods that convert easily to sugar increase (bread, grapes, raisins) etc my appetite – almost unbearably so.

    I am really looking forward to the How Not to Diet book!

  28. Dr. Greger, My physician told me there is no association between diet and cardiovascular disease. Which study(ies) would you suggest I send to him to get him thinking otherwise?

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