Flashback Friday: Optimal Vinegar Dose

Flashback Friday: Optimal Vinegar Dose
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How much vinegar should you consume with a meal to improve satiety and reduce the spike in blood sugar, insulin, and triglycerides?

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Consuming vinegar with a meal reduces the spike in blood sugar, insulin, and triglycerides. And it appears to work particularly well in those who are insulin resistant, on their way to type 2 diabetes; no wonder the consumption of vinegar with meals was used as a folk medicine for the treatment of diabetes before diabetes drugs were invented.

Many cultures have taken advantage of this fact, mixing vinegar with high glycemic foods like white rice—in Japan, for example, to make sushi; dipping bread into balsamic in the Mediterranean; a variety of sourdough breads throughout Europe, which cause lower blood sugar and insulin spikes. And you can do the same with boiled white potatoes by adding vinegar, and cooling them to make potato salad.

Adding vinegar to white bread doesn’t just lower blood sugar and insulin responses, but increases satiety—the feeling of being full after a meal. If you eat three slices of white bread, it may fill you up a little, but in less than two hours, not only are you as hungry as you started, but actually hungrier—less satiated than when you began. But if you eat that same amount of bread with some vinegar, you feel twice as full. And even two hours later, you’re still feeling nearly just as full as if you just ate the three pieces of bread plain. But this remarkable increase and prolongation of satiety took nearly two tablespoons of vinegar. That’s a lot of vinegar.

It turns out even just small amounts of vinegar—two teaspoons with a meal—can significantly cut down on the blood sugar spike of a refined carb meal—a bagel and juice in this case. So, you could have a little side salad or even just add it to some tea with lemon—it’s only two teaspoons. Or scrap the bagel with juice, and just have some oatmeal with berries instead.

What if you consume vinegar every day for months? Researchers at Arizona State randomized prediabetics to drink a daily bottle of apple cider vinegar drink—a half bottle at lunch, a half bottle at supper—or, take an apple cider vinegar tablet, which they pretty much considered a placebo control, since while the bottle contains two tablespoons of vinegar, two tablets would add up to only about a third of a teaspoon a day. So, they were, in effect, comparing about 40 spoonfuls of vinegar a week, to 2 for 12 weeks.

This is what happened. On the vinegar drink, fasting blood sugars dropped within one week. How significant is a drop of 16 points? A simple dietary tweak—a tablespoon of vinegar twice a day—worked better than the leading drugs, like Glucophage and Avandia. This effect of vinegar is particularly noteworthy when the cost, access, and toxicities that are associated with pharmaceutical medications are considered. So, safer, cheaper, and more effective. No wonder it’s been used medicinally since antiquity. Interestingly, even the tiny amount of vinegar in pill form seemed to help a bit. That’s astonishing. And no, the study was not funded by the vinegar company.

What about long-term vinegar use where it really counts: in diabetics? They were randomized into one of three groups. Two tablespoons of vinegar twice a day, with lunch and supper; two dill pickles a day, which each contained about a half tablespoon’s worth of vinegar; or an even smaller vinegar pill twice a day, each containing only 1/16th of a teaspoon’s worth of vinegar. So, I wasn’t surprised the pill didn’t work, but neither did the pickles. Maybe the tablespoon a day isn’t enough for diabetics? Regardless, the vinegar did work: all the more impressive, because the diabetics were mostly well-controlled on medication, and still saw an additional benefit from the vinegar.

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio contributed by Katie Schloer.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image thanks to Andreas Levers via Flickr

Consuming vinegar with a meal reduces the spike in blood sugar, insulin, and triglycerides. And it appears to work particularly well in those who are insulin resistant, on their way to type 2 diabetes; no wonder the consumption of vinegar with meals was used as a folk medicine for the treatment of diabetes before diabetes drugs were invented.

Many cultures have taken advantage of this fact, mixing vinegar with high glycemic foods like white rice—in Japan, for example, to make sushi; dipping bread into balsamic in the Mediterranean; a variety of sourdough breads throughout Europe, which cause lower blood sugar and insulin spikes. And you can do the same with boiled white potatoes by adding vinegar, and cooling them to make potato salad.

Adding vinegar to white bread doesn’t just lower blood sugar and insulin responses, but increases satiety—the feeling of being full after a meal. If you eat three slices of white bread, it may fill you up a little, but in less than two hours, not only are you as hungry as you started, but actually hungrier—less satiated than when you began. But if you eat that same amount of bread with some vinegar, you feel twice as full. And even two hours later, you’re still feeling nearly just as full as if you just ate the three pieces of bread plain. But this remarkable increase and prolongation of satiety took nearly two tablespoons of vinegar. That’s a lot of vinegar.

It turns out even just small amounts of vinegar—two teaspoons with a meal—can significantly cut down on the blood sugar spike of a refined carb meal—a bagel and juice in this case. So, you could have a little side salad or even just add it to some tea with lemon—it’s only two teaspoons. Or scrap the bagel with juice, and just have some oatmeal with berries instead.

What if you consume vinegar every day for months? Researchers at Arizona State randomized prediabetics to drink a daily bottle of apple cider vinegar drink—a half bottle at lunch, a half bottle at supper—or, take an apple cider vinegar tablet, which they pretty much considered a placebo control, since while the bottle contains two tablespoons of vinegar, two tablets would add up to only about a third of a teaspoon a day. So, they were, in effect, comparing about 40 spoonfuls of vinegar a week, to 2 for 12 weeks.

This is what happened. On the vinegar drink, fasting blood sugars dropped within one week. How significant is a drop of 16 points? A simple dietary tweak—a tablespoon of vinegar twice a day—worked better than the leading drugs, like Glucophage and Avandia. This effect of vinegar is particularly noteworthy when the cost, access, and toxicities that are associated with pharmaceutical medications are considered. So, safer, cheaper, and more effective. No wonder it’s been used medicinally since antiquity. Interestingly, even the tiny amount of vinegar in pill form seemed to help a bit. That’s astonishing. And no, the study was not funded by the vinegar company.

What about long-term vinegar use where it really counts: in diabetics? They were randomized into one of three groups. Two tablespoons of vinegar twice a day, with lunch and supper; two dill pickles a day, which each contained about a half tablespoon’s worth of vinegar; or an even smaller vinegar pill twice a day, each containing only 1/16th of a teaspoon’s worth of vinegar. So, I wasn’t surprised the pill didn’t work, but neither did the pickles. Maybe the tablespoon a day isn’t enough for diabetics? Regardless, the vinegar did work: all the more impressive, because the diabetics were mostly well-controlled on medication, and still saw an additional benefit from the vinegar.

To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video. This is just an approximation of the audio contributed by Katie Schloer.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image thanks to Andreas Levers via Flickr

128 responses to “Flashback Friday: Optimal Vinegar Dose

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    1. AnyMc,

      I just tried a cold sliced potato cooked in my Instant Pot (so, steamed under pressure) drizzled with apple cider vinegar and sprinkled with dill — and it was delicious! Sort of like a simpler version of potato salad. Also, some soup recipes call for adding vinegar, but that is in small amounts. Slaws have vinegar in the dressing.

      There are also probably lots of recipes online.

    2. I add 1 tsp to my 24 oz. water bottle and usually refill it 4 times a day. Makes for a tangy drink. Two tablespoons is a lot and I don’t reach that level.

        1. I’ve thought about that, but it’s not a lot of vinegar – which is already pretty dilute. So far hasn’t been an issue, I don’t eat sugars, and use good oral hygiene. But two tablespoons might be something to worry about!

          Sent from Mail for Windows 10

      1. I added tbsp two to each Bottle water, several years; now ye a re dental repairs Inc denture. So ingest in cup then swish rinse tea or plain water.

    3. Hi AndyMc – Thanks for your question! Try using vinegar in these additional ways:
      –Marinades (for example, with tofu/tempeh)
      –Baked goods like muffins, pancakes, and breads (as a leavening agent when paired with baking soda)
      –Asian-inspired sauces
      –Subs/sandwiches (drizzle some red wine vinegar or other vinegar on top)
      –Cooked/roasted veggies (drizzle on top of warm veggies)

      I hope this helps give you some more ideas!
      -Janelle RD (Registered Dietitian & NutritionFacts.org Health Support Volunteer)

  1. To add to another commenter: Can a tablespoon just be added to some liquid (almond milk, water, smoothie) and taken that way? I assume it has to be taken after a meal, correct?

    1. Dr Greger mentions adding 2 tsp of vinegar to tea and other beverages. Although the studies cited mentioned having the vinegar after a high carb meal, many people take their apple cider vinegar dose first thing in the morning. It would seem having it after a meal might be best, but perhaps effective other times as well, especially if you snack.

  2. I cannot believe anyone who is teaching healthful diet would promote vinegar as having any health benefit. If the science behind why it works were known, they would put danger warnings on the bottle, “NOT FOR CONSUMPTION” “KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN”. We know that vinegar is a very strong chemical disinfectant even a diluted form. It is a nerve irritant, especially in the brain. It is made from alcohol, but is a lot more concentrated, and produces fatty liver disease. The way it helps with blood sugar is to interfere with digestion, causing fermentation in the stomach. Then toxins are produced during digestion, so calories and essential nutrients are less easily absorbed into the system. These toxins destroy the liver and over burden the kidneys.

    1. Marcy,

      Could you provide links to scientific research articles that support your statements?

      Because the video does exactly that: reviews nutrition science research articles published in peer reviewed journals. What do you have to offer to counter the information presented?

      Otherwise, methinks you drank the kool aid (though it, too, contains acetic acid, at about half or less the strength present in vinegar).

    2. You have no facts to back up your claims. You sound like a troll. Dr. Greger has just given facts to back up his claims. Moreover, it is highly unlikely that the research findings showing that ACV helps people with high blood sugar are affected by conflicts of interest because ACV is not a profitable health supplement at all. It’s incredibly cheap. And actually there is research showing that ACV helps protect the liver and kidneys. And I am certain ACV doesn’t just cause food to ferment in your stomach. I’ve taken it for years to improve my digestion and it has helped. It also improves testosterone levels and fertility.

      Sources:
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24894721/

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29923211/

    3. Vinegar is from alcohol like sucralose is from sugar. Both not at all the same as the base material. Vinegar does not cause fermentation. Most is pasteurized and dead. Also the details of how vinegar works regarding blood sugar has little to nothing to do with digestion.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4438142/

      Glucose regulation depends mainly on insulin secretion by the pancreatic beta-cells and insulin action on peripheral tissues. In our study, insulin levels were decreased after the consumption of vinegar, confirming previous reports, suggesting that the hypoglycemic effect of vinegar may be mediated through an effect on insulin action in the peripheral tissues. Skeletal muscle is considered as the most important tissue for insulin-stimulated glucose uptake. In our study vinegar ingestion enhanced glucose disposal, suggesting an improvement in insulin action in skeletal muscle. The effect of vinegar in the intracellular pathways of glucose metabolism in skeletal muscle has been previously examined in animal studies. In rats, acetic acid has been shown to enhance glycogen repletion, attributed to accumulation of glucose 6-phosphate due to suppression of glycolysis.

      In summary, our study showed that, in type 2 diabetes, vinegar reduces postprandial hyperglycaemia, hyperinsulinaemia, and hypertriglyceridaemia without affecting lipolysis. As a result, vinegar’s effect on carbohydrate metabolism may be accounted for, at least in part, by an increase in insulin-stimulated glucose uptake, demonstrating an improvement in insulin action in the skeletal muscles.

      1. Hi Steve, thanks for your comment. Yes, according to this review, vinegar, from the French vin aigret, meaning “sour wine,” can be made from almost any fermentable carbohydrate source, including wine, molasses, dates, sorghum, apples, pears, grapes, berries, melons, coconut, honey, beer, maple syrup, potatoes, beets, malt, grains, and whey. Initially, yeasts ferment the natural food sugars to alcohol. Next, acetic acid bacteria (Acetobacter) convert the alcohol to acetic acid. Commercial vinegar is produced by either fast or slow fermentation processes. For the quick methods, the liquid is oxygenated by agitation and the bacteria culture is submerged permitting rapid fermentation. The slow methods are generally used for the production of the traditional wine vinegars, and the culture of acetic acid bacteria grows on the surface of the liquid and fermentation proceeds slowly over the course of weeks or months. The longer fermentation period allows for the accumulation of a nontoxic slime composed of yeast and acetic acid bacteria, known as the mother of vinegar. Vinegar eels (nematodaTurbatrix aceti) feed on these organisms and occur in naturally fermenting vinegar.
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1785201/

      2. White vinegar is produced from sugar, apple from apples, balsamic from grapes, rice from rice. The term “vinegar” actually refers to the two-step process of fermentation from a carbohydrate to an alcohol to an acetic acid.

      3. Steve is right. There are so many kinds of vinegar. In some Chinese cultures, black vinegar made from rice is supposed to be especially good for women in the first month after giving birth: https://www.theburningkitchen.com/pig-trotter-vinegar/. There is a vegan version.

        Balsalmic vinegar is a bit controversial. In Singapore, where I live, balsalmic is not considered halal because it may have a tiny bit of alcohol in the processing: https://myhalalkitchen.com/the-vinegar-page/. Sorry, but I couldn’t find a more scientific link.

        Here’s a scientific comparison of vinegars made from various ingredients, but the article is in Korean, except for the tables: https://www.koreascience.or.kr/article/JAKO201326053672985.pdf

      4. What is your evidence for stating that white vinegar is toxic? Anything in sufficiently large amounts, even water, is toxic of course but that doesn’t mean that eg consuming optimal amounts of water is not healthy. Or white vinegar for that matter (although I prefer malt vinegar personally). I understand that distilled white vinegar comes from distilled alcohol in turn usually made from grains. So perhaps this statement comes from a general anti-grains perspective?
        https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/food-features/vinegar/

        TBH, at first sight, it sounds like just another crank claim. Is this just a personal belief or is it something you found on the internet? Or do you have a scientific study or ten you could cite in support?

      1. Seriously Shondra, THAT is going to be your only comment? No one even knows who it is directed at or what you are disagreeing about. Perhaps internet comment boards are not your strength. They also use fingers not mouths.

    4. In defense of Marcy’s comment on the health of vinegar, I would like to say that there is a lot of confusion about fermented foods and pickled foods. From my research, it seems that there is a lot that science needs to learn about all the chemical reactions that are taking place in the making of these kinds of foods. Just because these foods have been been used for ages, doesn’t make them healthy or even safe.

      For example, there is a chemical called acetyldehyde found in vinegar that is classified as toxic:

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/pharmacology-toxicology-and-pharmaceutical-science/acetaldehyde

      and : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124883/

      from which we have:

      ” In foods, the highest concentrations of acetaldehyde were determined in vinegar (1.06 g/kg), but also in milk products and diverse fruits and vegetables [16, 17].”

      And in the past, Dr Greger has cautioned about the harmful effects of kimchi and kombucha:

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-kimchi-good-for-you/

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-kombucha-tea-goodfor-you/

      So the bottom line, there seems to be a definite need for more research on on these kinds of foods. None of these, including vinegar, can be considered unprocessed, whole plant foods!

      1. Hi Darwin Galt, thanks for your investigation on vinegar.

        I referred her to this review that in the safety section do point out some harmful issues that have been investigated.Vinegar’s use as a condiment and food ingredient spans thousands of years, and perhaps its use can be labeled safe by default. Yet there are rare reports in the literature regarding adverse reactions to vinegar ingestion. Inflammation of the oropharynx and second-degree caustic injury of the esophagus and cardia were observed in a 39-year-old woman who drank 1 tablespoon of rice vinegar in the belief it would dislodge a piece of crab shell from her throat.[64] (The use of vinegar in these situations is a popular Chinese folk remedy.) Her symptoms resolved spontaneously after several days. Esophageal injury by vinegar is likely very rare but deserves notice. Chronic inflammation of the esophagus is a cancer risk; but, as reported previously,[45] vinegar use was inversely related to risk for cancer of the esophagus.

        The unintentional aspiration of vinegar has been associated with laryngospasm and subsequent vasovagal syncope that resolved spontaneously.[65] Hypokalemia was observed in a 28-year-old woman who had reportedly consumed approximately 250 mL apple cider vinegar daily for 6 years.[66] Although speculative, the hypokalemia was attributed to elevated potassium excretion related to the bicarbonate load from acetate metabolism.
        This information is from the review
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1785201/

        1. spring03, Thank you for your follow-up.

          This is definitely a complex subject. I do use vinegar occasionally with no observable issues. But I don’t use it on a regular basis because I find that I can get all the benefits that it can provide, through other whole plant foods. For example, by being on a WPF diet, I have no issue with T2D. And although vinegar can also be helpful for blood pressure and artery flow, by eating beets and greens, I maintain a normal BP and artery flow.

      2. Darwin: a teetotaler is right to be concerned about acetaldehyde in vinegar, but if one drinks alcoholic beverages, it makes no sense because ethanol in alcoholic beverages is converted to acetaldehyde in the liver.

        1. Acetaldehyde is found naturally in coffee, bread, fruits, legumes etc etc. In fact there is a higher percentage of acetaldehyde in lemons, oranges, garlic, bananas, apple juice, Earl Grey tea and orange juice than there is in vinegar and a ton more in some coffees.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3124883/

          Why then should we worry about consuming small amounts of vinegar when many of us are eating substantial amounts of fruit and drinking coffee every day?

      3. Thank you Darwin,
        I have done extensive research myself. Vinegar does not ferment by itself in the stomach, but it delays digestive processes, causing the food to ferment, releasing additional toxins into the system. Long before modern science, people used vinegar to stupefy a person who was suffering extreme pain and it worked to lessen the pain by deadening the nerves of the brain. We do not know the exact action that it has on the brain and whether it is cumulative or permanent, but I would say, that I would not want to be the one who tries it as an experiment to find out. As mentioned, It is far from an unprocessed whole plant food, and so would classify as outside of the diet supposed to be advocated on this site.

        1. Marcy

          If you have, as you write, done ‘extensive research’ on this matter, you should have no trouble citing scientific papers to support your belief that consuming small amounts of vinegar is unhealthy.

          It would be helpful if you could post those references here.

  3. All the photos, in the video, show apple cider vinegar. Is this the only vinegar to show results? I usually use white balsamic vinegar with my daily salad

    1. Debbie,

      I think the “splash page” picture is balsamic, isn’t it? And Dr. Greger mentioned that Medeterraneans dip bread in BV as their preferred method. That seems to work just as well.

    2. I wrote a comment comparing the health benefits of balsamic vinegar and and regular vinegar which you’ll find if you scroll way down It appears your white balsamic vinegar on your salad is a good choice, esp. if it does not contain sugar.

  4. Question … my family doesn’t drink alcohol. But a beverage we adore is flavored Balsamic vinegars with seltzer water. In fact, I prefer it to the wine I used to drink! Raspberry Balsamic with lime LaCroix; Blueberry Balsamic with plain soda water; Grapfruit Balsamic with soda water; Quince Pomegranite Balsamic on salads … many flavors to choose. Do these Balsamic vinegars work as well as Apple Cider vinegar? If so I’m a happy camper!

    1. You might be surprised to know that balsamic vinegar was first used as a tonic after meals. The word Balsamic comes from the Latin balsamam meaning curative or restorative.

  5. At one point near the end, the study said the vinegar reduced A1C by .16%
    If their A1C was at 6.5 before, a .16% drop would be a drop of 0.0104 down to 6.4986.

    Not really significant.

    Show me the error of my thinking here.

    Thankd

    1. You are correct that while the drop in AIC might not seem impressive ( & note Dr. Greger said it was MODEST) the fact that it happened with well-controlled diabetics does make even a modest drop worth mentioning.

  6. In the graph shown at about 1:40 it appears that 0.1 grams vinegar was much more effective than 1.0 gram! No comment was made about that. Did I mis-read the graphic?

    1. It appears as I look at the graph that both the 1.0 gram of acetic acid and the 0.1 gram both significantly brought blood glucose down. The higher dose started at a gluicose level a little under 2 and went down to a little over 1 in 120 min while the lower dose started at 2 1/2 and went down to about the same level in the same amount of time so we could could conclude that both the low and higher dose were about equally effective as Dr. Greger indicated in a comment introducing this graph:”It turns out even just small amounts of vinegar—two teaspoons with a meal—can significantly cut down on the blood sugar spike of a refined carb meal.”

  7. Okay, here’s my question. I don’t add vinegar to my meals, because I truly eat one dish meals, and vinegar with oatmeal??? On the other hand, I drink at least twice a day a 17 ounce glass of water with one tablespoon of wild blueberry balsamic vinegar in it. Am I meeting the requirement of do I have to rethink everything?

    1. Barbie, you don’t have to add vinegar at every meal. I recall a video about fruit (berries specifically) where dr greger said the addition of berries prevents a blood sugar spike. Berries with your oatmeal might be something to try. The other video that came to mind was this one
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/beans-and-the-second-meal-effect/ where eating beans the night before impacted blood sugar levels the next day.

      I don’t use vinegar at all or things like ginger without being very dilute because of history with acid reflux.

      1. My oatmeal comes with 1/2 cup of wild blueberries, 1 tablespoon of ground flax seeds, and a small amount of crushed walnuts. Also a slurp of maple syrup. So I’m getting the berry help in the morning. In the summer it’s overnight oats, but I absolutely love cooked oatmeal in the cooler times.

      2. Barb,
        I did figure 8’s on my bike this morning. Lots of fun.

        I eat blueberries with my oatmeal.

        I eat lots of mustard, which has vinegar and turmeric.

        1. wtg Dan! The figure of 8’s are helping my balance and agility. So is bicycling along a ‘line’ of some kind.
          The food ideas are good too… never thought about mustard having both the vinegar and turmeric! That and salsa are the only condiments I use at the moment.

    1. Matt:
      Acetic acid and water are the common ingredients of all types of vinegars, so acetic acid is presumably responsible for the health benefits of vinegar. Acetic acid is fairly stable to heat and its boiling point is significantly higher than that of water. So, as long as you cook in water, heat has no effect on the acetic acid or acetic acid content of vinegar.

  8. Matt,

    Heat at high enough temperatures for long enough kills the bacteria in apple cider vinegar. So if you are using it for your gut microbiome they say if you want it hot pour the water in a cup and then put the vinegar in as it starts to cool down.

    I don’t know how heat relates to the information in the video. But if the gut microbiome is the important factor, I guess my 5-bean casserole isn’t going to help me, unless I pour some extra vinegar in after it cooks.

    1. Anyone attempting to use vinegar to replace gut microbes is someone who needs to study gut microbes. Acetobacter, the bacteria that makes vinegar is considered an INFECTION if a human colonizes it in their body. It is not found in a healthy normal human digestive tract.

      And the process of making vinegar kills the bacteria in the bottle to only trace amounts if any. That is how fermentation works, more vinegar is produced until it gets so strong it kills the bacteria producing it.

      1. One quick way to tell if your vinegar is dead, the bottle did not explode in the store. Living bacteria produce gasses. This is why probiotic pickles and sauerkraut are refrigerated.

  9. I found out that my brother and sister-in-law have started going to restaurants and eating inside already. So is my father.

    I think about the bar where 1 person gave 16 people COVID-19 and the SARS flight where 1 person gave 22 people SARS and 5 people died and the man who got COVD-19 just waiting too long on the patio for his take-out meal.

    I feel like the leadership is more concerned with economy now and people aren’t going to even hear how dangerous restaurants and bars and plane flights really can be. Planes, they can wear masks and not eat or drink, but you can’t eat with masks on.

    1. People already know what is what and choose who they want to listen to. I am no longer going to babysit narcissistic grown adults acting like freedom to them is about openly not having to give a crap if they catch a disease and pass it to others. Those people are now avoided in person and they know why.

  10. I am going to talk to my restaurant friends. At least if people place their orders before they come it would lower the length of exposure.

    I am going to try to figure out how to sanitize the air.

    The UVC lights seem the way to go or steam cleaners.

    Could they steam the air at the tables between guests and lower the viral load or something?

    I wonder if they could aim the air conditioning high or low or put something for the viruses to bounce off of away from the tables.

    I need a scientist.

    1. It’s not rocket-surgery… going to restaurants entails risk of infection by a virus that has no cure and limited treatment options, period. I’m out hear in the California Free-state and even with a reasonably compliant citizenry, the ones who feel requiring them to wear a mask is a violation of their human right to spread the virus to others have prevented us from even peaking yet.

      My best-wife and I have psychological prepared ourselves for the prospect of staying sequestered for another year if need be till a vaccine is available. Of course, the same folks who refuse to wear those horrid masks are likely the ones who will refuse to be vaccinated and prevent the population from reaching vaccination rates needed to achieve herd immunity.

      We all are paying the price for folks who believe that their right to free thought and speech mean that their conspiracy theories & Clorox™ injections are as valid as science based risk management and health care. Problem is, the COVID-19 doesn’t care about politics, one way or another, and exploits theoretical any opportunity stupidity

      1. This goes here:
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
        -Isaac Asimov

        1. Reality Bites, Speaking of famous quotes:

          “It is important for the common good to foster individuality: for only the individual can produce the new ideas which the community needs for its continuous improvement and requirements – indeed, to avoid sterility and petrification.”

          -Albert Einstein

          And remember:

          “A lone amateur built the Ark. … A large group of professionals built the Titanic!”

          1. Sometimes, as with vehicle speed limits. aircraft flight paths, motorcycle helmets and seat belts, the individual’s right to be stupid and irresponsible has to take a back seat to public safety.

            As Schiller pointed out

            ‘Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain’

            Few people are concerned if an individual’s own stupidity and irresponsibility results in that person’s death. Most of us though object if they result in the death of others and/or costs to the public purse. That’s why people expect governments to protect them against the gross wickedness and stupidity of others. Perhaps at base it is an issue of education but, as we’ve seen here, there is a minority of people who refuse to let the facts alter their opinions (or behaviour). At some point, societies have to consider if regulation is necessary to protect the public.

            1. Hello Fumbles, I agree that there has to be a balance for things to work smoothly. It’s the extremes that we are now witnessing that are causing problems. I see way too much emphasis on conformity from authoritarian sources at the top regarding the virus. And way too much emphasis on conformity with the threat of violence, arson, and looting by thugs at the bottom! The rational people in the middle are the one suffering!!!

              And I agree with your statement that governments should protect the people “against the gross wickedness and stupidity of others”. But that is not happening in many places with certain governments selectively enforcing some laws and not others, especially regarding the rioters!

              Here’s a clip from an old comedy TV show back in the 1990’s foreshadowing today’s environment?

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JLvoKP1y-M

              1. Thanks Darwin.

                But wearing ribbons made absolutely no difference to the spread of AIDS or to its lethality. People with AIDS having unprotected sex with (multiple) partners whom they chose not to inform of their AIDS status did. There’s a world of difference between those two situations.
                https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/living-well-with-hiv/your-legal-rights/limits-on-confidentiality

                It’s where we draw the line that is the difficult choice. In my opinion, saving other people’s lives and avoiding unnecessary burdens on taxpayers should be factors that we take into account when making decisions about whether to legislate/regulate or not in such circumstances..

      2. PrinceMongo,

        I am glad that you are prepared.

        It is hard for me because I have to make decisions affecting peoples’ lives and we were essential workers to begin with and never got to close but now everything is open and the workers are going out to restaurants and eating indoors and we are having our first heatwave this coming week and we need to use air conditioning.

        The workers feel safe going back to normal. I feel like I need to figure out how to be responsible. I am looking at the states that are already in trouble and I was thinking that they seemed to be the hotter states – more likely to use air conditioning. That is how it looks to me. But Alaska and Montana and other states also have an R Naught over 1.

        I went to the R Naught site and, yesterday, the USA had 18 states had an R Naught above 1. Today, it switched to 26 states have an R Naught above 1.

    2. A lot of good ideas but not always feasible. UVC damages skin so could only be used in an empty eatery. Steam is not used as the companies doing ‘deep cleans’ for restaurants prefer disinfectant foggers usually with a hydrogen peroxide base. Between guests a simple disinfectant wipe is sufficient. Regarding air conditioning, HEPA filtration has become a must. One eatery owner in France put HEPA wind socks over the vent outlets that inflate when the air conditioning comes on. Anything that will catch those ‘moisture particles’.

      I work with our public health department which does give me a lot of insight into our current situation. Opening eateries we will not know the full effects of for a couple more weeks due to incubation period. We do know that most of the current new cases in my area (northern California) are not happening from grocery trips and casual errands. Starting Mothers Day weekend we have contact traced positive covid cases to people having large unauthorized gatherings, and every weekend after the same thing with graduation parties, etc. Those are where the majority of new exposures are happening. The current second highest source is vineyard workers.

      1. Wow, thanks, Reality Bites.

        I will look into that. One of my friends owns 3 restaurants in Paris. I am going to be talking with him soon. He might be able to help me figure things out.

    3. Deb,
      There is a presidential political rally in Tulsa today, at the BOK Center. Thousands of people crammed tightly together yelling and screaming for hours. People have been advised that masks are optional. One protesting lawyer has likened it to a ticking, biological time bomb.

      1. Dan C,
        Just to be fair and balanced, how about those thousands of rioters, looters, and arsonists crammed tightly together in the city streets yelling and screaming for hours, even days! One protesting lawyer has likened it to a ticking, biological time bomb, but probably not the same lawyer that you referred to ;-)

        1. DG,
          I can only guess at the motivation behind the protests. I wondered if some of it was related to quarantine stress. It wasn’t logical for so many to put their health in danger over one lost life. Frankly, I was surprised at the level of outrage. I questioned if the Floyd death was related to racism so much as it was to poor police work and the inability of police departments to get rid of poorly performing officers. Racism is real and ugly. I think progress is being made. Destruction of others property is not progress.

          1. Dan, I must agree with you that the rioting, looting, and arson, probably has a lot of underlying motives. From what I’m reading, a certain organized violent group usurped the valid peaceful protests! And the death and destruction is definitely not proportional to the original stated cause of the protests.

            And as you know, the perceptions that people have are shaped by the information they read. I try to get my information from as many different sources as possible and draw my own conclusions. And by doing that, I have discovered that the mainstream media (traditional TV networks, most newspapers, etc.) are extremely biased! I encourage everyone to seek out differing viewpoints and don’t blindly accept just one “popular” view. In fact, that’s why I visit NutritionFacts.org every day because the mainstream media is full of biased advertising on nutrition!

            And regarding your comment on racism, from my experience, since the time of Martin L. King, race relations have improved tremendously. I have many friends of every race, sex, and national background, and we all get along fine together! I lived through those times of MLK and still remember his famous quote: “We should judge people by their character and not by the color of their skin.” Ie., as the US Constitution and Bill of Rights states, everyone should be treated equally.

            Actually, having a scientific background, I don’t accept that ”race” is even a valid concept. I remember reading about “Mitochondrial Eve” back in the 1970’s where by studying the genetics of the mitochondria of all our cells, which is transmitted by females, it was concluded that the whole Homo Sapien species originated out of Africa. So in a certain sense, we’re all related! And from a scientific perspective, breaking people up into races doesn’t even make sense!

            Sorry if this is a little long-winded response, but just trying to explain things clearly, all in the spirit of effective communication.

            1. Just read some more real news … looks like a lot of nefarious people are making a lot of money and gaining a lot of power by keeping the races fighting with each other :-(

            2. DG,
              I enjoyed reading your perspective. I wish more people would be accepting also, and not just with their own species. I treat my pet as a person, as many people do. These relationships are very rewarding. You don’t have to be a minority to experience manipulation. Unfair pressure is manifested many ways. There will always be a struggle for something better. Noam Chomsky points out that lots has been done in just our lifetimes.

  11. Maybe they could mount air conditioners in the ceiling and then have them vent out the side someplace so that the airflow pushes things downward?

      1. Families who have members get sick need an air conditioning strategy, too. It seems like seating them the furthest away from the air conditioning and using fans to disperse the virus away from everybody else and downward are the first things I can think of.

    1. I live in the Philippines. It has a population of about 110 million – one third that of the US. However, it only has about 1,300 covid-19 deaths recorded. It is hot and humid all year round.

      ‘Findings In this cohort study of 50 cities with and without coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), areas with substantial community transmission of COVID-19 had distribution roughly along the 30° N to 50° N latitude corridor with consistently similar weather patterns, consisting of mean temperatures of 5 to 11 °C combined with low specific and absolute humidity.

      Meaning In this study, the distribution of substantial community outbreaks of COVID-19 along restricted latitude, temperature, and humidity measurements were consistent with the behavior of a seasonal respiratory virus; with modeling, it may be possible to estimate areas at high risk of substantial community transmission of COVID-19.’
      https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767010?

      1. Tom,

        Are people inside or outside more?

        For the USA, back in 1918, they would have been outside way more and the summer slowed the cases during that season.

        In the USA this decade, because of things like serial killing and kidnappings being on the television all the time, a lot of parents have raised their children indoors and television and computers and cell phones are what kids focus on.

        I read a sad story tonight of a medical person who was extra careful to take everything off outside and disinfect it and to take showers and their child who didn’t even leave the house at all during this time died.

        I look at the air conditioners at work and I do not know how to process the risk. They didn’t do enough studies or enough experiments or enough models.

        I have been thinking about what Reality Bites said about France and the Hepa filters but it is still the people at the same table and the two neighboring tables who got COVID in the sample and on the plane, it was 7 rows ahead and 5 rows back that got SARS.

        1. Deb

          Most people in the Philippines can’t afford air conditioning so it’s just as hot and humid inside as out.

          There is some evidence that humidity and temperature may affect both the virus’ spread and the ability of the body to fight off viral infections
          https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/how-humidity-may-affect-covid-19-outcome#4060%-humidity-may-be-ideal

          these are not the only factors though. others may be just as important or more important.

      2. You probably looked to find out if the study also looked at obesity and pre-exisiting conditions and age in the same regions, to rule that out before posting, so thanks.

  12. ron,

    There are also vinegar with the mother capsules and it would interest me if those worked.

    I do eat vinegar on my salads but I can’t figure out a way to eat it more often.

    1. Switchel or a shrub.

      Switchel, switzel, swizzle, switchy, ginger-water or haymaker’s punch is a drink made of water mixed with vinegar, and often seasoned with ginger. It is usually sweetened with molasses, though honey, sugar, brown sugar, or maple syrup are sometimes used instead.

      The word “shrub” can also refer to a cocktail or soft drink that was popular during America’s colonial era, made by mixing a vinegared syrup with spirits, water, or carbonated water. The term can also be applied to the base, a sweetened vinegar-based syrup from which the cocktail is made; that syrup is also known as drinking vinegar. Drinking vinegar is often infused with fruit juice, herbs and spices, for use in mixed drinks.

      1. That is interesting.

        I had to look up the etymology to figure out why they would call a drink a “shrub”

        Arabic.

        It said that smugglers hid their alcohol in the sea to avoid taxes and then they added fruit flavors to get rid of the taste of the seawater.

  13. Seems to me that too often, weight loss is associated with becoming healthier. I’m skinny. I don’t care if vinegar will decrease my appetite. Since becoming Vegan I’ve lost even more weight. Actually I’d like to GAIN weight. Isn’t there anything healthy to INCREASE weight. Sometimes I cheat with milk into my coffee, or even yoghurt, so admittedly I’m more of a vegetarian than a strict vegan. (sigh) And please no fancy-shmancy recipes because I really don’t like cooking either. LOL

    1. Susan,
      Some people gain weight by eating lots of fruit, or maybe. mostly fruit. I eat lots of fruit and veggies. The fruit may make me bloat (water content) for a bit, giving the illusion of weight gain. When I step on the scales, I am the same weight though. Eating lots of bread may help. If it’s whole bread, weight gain may be difficult. I go through ten lb bags of potatoes also which helps me feel satiated, but no weight gain.

    2. This is a really good question and you’re not the only one with this problem. The issue is often calorie density. Food like fruit and veggies have such low calorie density that you’ll likely lose more weight. This is the hallmark of a WFPB diet. To get around this, you can try eating dried fruit and nuts. These foods are relatively unprocessed but have much higher calorie density and should help you gain some weight. Available research shows that eating animal products increases your risk for disease and premature and death. Its always best to appoint with your doctor to make sure you don’t have any health issues that are causing your weight loss though.

  14. Yellow mustard lists distilled vinegar as the first ingredient. I do not like the taste of vinegar either, but enjoy yellow mustard. Not sure if this would work as well as vinegar to increase satiety and decrease blood glucose. I add yellow mustard to salads, stews, rice, potatoes and more.

    1. Fawn,
      I eat lots of mustard mostly on potatoes. It may be a health food. It has vinegar, turmeric, salt and paprika in it. I think the salt is minimal. I do not eat vinegar otherwise either. It’s a bit too strong of a taste.

  15. I remember years ago looking at acv in braggs bittles and seeing the strands floating around in the bottle. One never sees these strands anymore, just sediment in the bottom of the bottle. I wonder if we are still getting the real deal

    1. Yeah, it is nice to see the changes beginning to really happen for the Black communities.

      It is inspiring.

      Tonight, I watched Dateline, where 2 brothers, had both separately in 2 different murder cases, been convicted of murder and both spent over 20 years in prison and finally got released as innocent men. Law enforcement had threatened people to testify against both of them. The two men both had such sweet spirits. They weren’t these angry, vindictive people.

      It made me think about Herman’s House documentary

      .https://www.pbs.org/pov/watch/hermanshouse/

      And of a video, I watched on Vox of Robert Lee Simpson where he was convicted for murder based on bite marks, and one of the “marks” was supposedly made by his missing tooth.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zfVOoqoo6U

      My friend works for the Innocence Project.

      The concept that there could be thousands of people wrongly imprisoned for decades and many of them spend 23 hours per day in solitary confinement in a space the size of a parking space for decades.

      We don’t have housing as a right.

      Poverty sucks in so many ways and so does racism and all of the isms.

      The men in the Dateline tonight were people I would want to be around and interact with. Same with Herman from Herman’s House.

      When I was young, I had a thought that there might be some innocent people in prison. Now, I believe there is a lot of innocent people in prison.

        1. The Chicago Tribune said that the rate of wrongful convictions in the United States is estimated to be somewhere between 2 percent and 10 percent. or 46,000 to 230,000 innocent people.

          That is extrapolated from the overturned cases since DNA started.

          I don’t understand how that group keeps their sanity.

          A lot of them become these amazing people.

  16. Does reduced balsamic vinegar (no added sugar) count to reduce blood sugars as well? Would you recommend the same amounts with meals?

    1. It appears balsamic vinegar (without sugar) has indeed the same beneficial effects as “plain” vinegar, although it may be more expensive. Here is a research article that addresses the cholesterol effect: https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/56/6/56_6_421/_article
      Inhibitory Effects of Balsamic Vinegar on LDL Oxidation and Lipid Accumulation in THP-1 Macrophages
      This next article which not being as scholarly does cite several reliable sources on the health benefits of balsamic vinegar; https://www.healthline.com/health/balsamic-vinegar-health-benefits 7 Balsamic Vinegar Health Benefits for Weight Loss, Skin, and More
      Because balsamic vinegar is more concentrated you may wish to add less when adding it to foods. Hope that’s helpful

  17. It is almost 4 in the morning and I just got home from work and had a black man tell me that he was beaten up and tossed out of a car and I called the police for him and I am glad I trust my police with this man. I love that about my town.

  18. Try a Japanese Sweet Potato with flavored Balsamic drizzled over it. One of my favorites is White Peach Balsamic. yum

    1. I love those, but figured they are almost like white potatoes in that they are so light colored and they are ridiculously sweet as well.

      Are they as bad as regular potatoes? For that matter, are regular potatoes bad for us in general (low nutrient value)

      1. Don’t pay attention to advertising. Read the real research. Both sweet potatoes and white potatoes are whole plant foods that are full of nutrients and support health. There is at least one paper I’ve seen where people ate nothing but white potatoes for several months and were perfectly healthy. Its all the junk that people put on potatoes that is unhealthy.

  19. Dr. Greger says good things about sorghum and eats it for breakfast. I do not see a video on it. I’ve not seen it at the supermarket. Is it on the sugar isle, or is it in another form? Is anyone eating sorghum and how are you eating it?

      1. Hes mentioned 90%+ of that particular grain sourgum (sp?) goes to feed cattle in the beef industry. I find supermarkets arent the best for these items and organic natural foods places usually carry all sorts of bulk grains. We have Mom’s Organic nearby and they’ve got it and oat groats and lots of others for cheap. True enough though, Bobs ground flax is a decent price Ive found.

        Cheapest place though is mediteranean food stores. They have a great grain called Freakeh. Cooks fast and high nutrient value. Its young “greem” wheat and roasted, and is an ancient grain. Delish too.

        1. How do you eat your grains?

          I have a food delivery mixed brown rice and quinoa and some other grain and I keep looking at it but don’t really know what to do with them,

          I do know how to ruin them and how to get rid of the leftovers when you don’t want to eat them.

          I also know how to make a boring version where I will eat them and not thrown them out but not want to eat them again.

          1. Deb,
            I go through endless cannisters of old fashioned oats. I dry mix these with barley, cocoa, raisins, prunes, dates, figs, nuts (other foods). I microwave a serving in water for a couple of minutes and add fresh fruit–apples, oranges, grapefruit, strawberries.
            If you have grains you do not want to eat alone, lose them in a big stock pot of stew (rice,barley).

      2. Barb,
        Thanks. My experiences with sorghum is with a molassas, but I don’t see it in stores. In my ranching days I fed it to farm animals. It is a sweet, molassas coating grains. Before my time, my dad’s family raised sorghum cane. This would be cut down and taken to a sorghum mill and made into animal feed I guess. Maybe the cane makes a grain at its head, like milo. Maybe this is what people are eating. Surprisingly, this low cost animal feed might be a super food. I think it is supposed to help with diabetes. I think it might be high in fiber.

  20. I’m interested in cheap, highly nutritious foods because I am a cheapster and because I think of the most economic way to feed the masses. This could come in handy during an emergency, like we are in now.

    Generic brand beans and grains are cheaper. Black beans, in bulk, are really cheap and are very nutricious because of the high anthocyanin (black pigment–anti cancer) content. White potatoes are cheap and one can live on them.
    Sorghum (grain?) is a cheap animal food that may be a super food for people. It is not something you may find in grocery stores.
    I’m wondering if people could do some of their shopping at feed stores. A tow sack of feed store whole oats is bound to be cheaper than packaged grocery store oats. The same with sorghum.
    Food is already subsidized. Food banks (free food) are plentiful in Oklahoma where 1 in 4 kids go hungry.
    If good nutrition is a primary building block for healthy socities of people, then why not dispense free food for those who want it. This may pay golden dividends in health care cost savings (Medicaid). This could go beyond food stamps. Farm surpluses could be bought at a discount to supply the free food program.
    Would this undercut people working for a living in the food industry. Maybe not because people who have adequate incomes will buy their food, probably in processed forms.
    Who would benefit from free food? The poor, those retired on fixed incomes, and those living in a colapsed economy (that could be us).

  21. Dan, yes sorghum is a grain. Molasses is used in some animal feed recipes but that’s different. Sorghum is a staple in different parts of the world like India and parts of Africa.

    I wouldn’t advise you to buy your grains from the feed store for a variety of reasons… you want organic if you are going to be eating something on a daily basis. The more often I eat something, the better quality I buy. I buy grains at my local health food store like JazzBass does. They have a huge variety of organic grains you can buy in bulk (great for buying in small amounts to try out) and you can buy in large sacks too. I often buy whole emmer or spelt, hulled barley, oat bran, brown rice, and others there.

  22. I’ve been trying to take vinegar daily and found it correlates with getting acne (only came to mind because a friend of mine mentioned he has a similar result from eating nightshades and other acidic vegetables). I’ve tried to find information about that, but couldn’t, and all the information here seems to only support positive effects from vinegar… is there anything to show it does/doesn’t cause acne? I don’t want to ruin my facial skin :(

    1. R, I couldn’t find links in medical journals, but I did find this article on the topic. https://www.theclearskinessentials.com/3-vinegars-causing-acne-breakouts/ Seems you are not the only one to experience this.

      Many, if not most, balsamic vinegars sold in grocery stores are not ‘the real thing’. Aged balsamic is quite expensive, and the Ingredients list will only show grape must. Additives like caramel coloring to products like balsamic vinegar might be the source of your problem.
      Perhaps try a vinegar with zero additives before deciding to give up on it completely.

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