COVID-19 Symptoms vs. the Flu, a Cold, or Allergies

COVID-19 Symptoms vs. the Flu, a Cold, or Allergies
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What does the clinical course of COVID-19 look like for both those who survive and those who don’t?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

What does the clinical course of COVID-19 look like? It tends to start with fever and cough, but before then, the average incubation period—the time between the moment you get sufficiently exposed to the virus and the moment you start showing symptoms—seems to be about five days. So, almost a week goes by when you’re infected—and potentially infectious—before you even know it. About 98 percent of those who are going to start showing symptoms do so by day 12, which explains why people are typically asked to self-quarantine for two weeks after a potential exposure. After infection, apparent viral shedding may continue for more than a month (with an average of 20 days), though it’s not clear how contagious survivors are—if at all—during that extended time period.

The most common symptoms are fever and cough, experienced by about 90 percent and 70 percent of patients, respectively, based on an analysis of more than fifty thousand COVID-19 patients. In terms of less common symptoms, only about four in ten experience fatigue; three in ten cough up phlegm; and two in ten experience muscle aches. Only about one in ten suffer from gastrointestinal symptoms, such as nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea, or common cold-type symptoms, like a runny or stuffy nose, headache, or a sore throat. This is consistent with the regional concentration of ACE2—the receptors the virus latches onto—in the lungs, rather than the nose or throat (though in pangolins, ACE2 is found on their flicking anteater tongues).

Here’s a chart that can help you differentiate between COVID-19, the common cold, the flu, or seasonal allergies. The only COVID-19 symptom found predictive of a more severe course was difficulty breathing, which resulted in more than six times the odds of eventually having to be admitted into the ICU. That’s why that’s such an important symptom to catch early, and a red flag to immediately seek medical attention. If it’s going to strike, shortness of breath usually hits a week after symptoms begin.

The notion that the course of about 80 percent of cases are “mild” was derived from an analysis by the Chinese CDC that was based on nearly 45,000 confirmed cases. While there are certainly mild and even asymptomatic cases, it’s important to understand what “mild” means to the Chinese CDC. Its definition of mild included those with so-called “walking pneumonia,” meaning pneumonia not dire enough to require supplemental oxygen or hospitalization, but pneumonia nonetheless—certainly not the “common cold”-type courses people might think of when they hear the word mild—though the cases were at least mild enough that people should be able to treat themselves at home.

The remaining 20 or so percent of confirmed cases were classified as severe (about 15 percent), which involved difficulty getting enough oxygen, or critical (5 percent), encompassing respiratory failure, septic shock, and multisystem organ failure. About half of those critical cases died. So, about 80 percent mild, 15 percent severe, and 5 percent critical––though that doesn’t include all the asymptomatic cases that escaped detection completely, and never became confirmed cases at all.

Because as many as four-fifths of cases are asymptomatic, the risk of dying after being infected may end up ranging from 1 in 1,000 to about 1 in 300, though if you do show symptoms, the risk of death may be more like 1 in 150.

On autopsy, the respiratory surface of the lung under a microscope appears obliterated by scar tissue. Pulmonary fibrosis (lung scarring) is expected to become one of the long-term complications among survivors of serious COVID-19 infection. A six-month follow-up of SARS survivors found about one in three showed evidence of scarring on chest x-ray, and up to one in six suffered a significant impairment in lung function.

Death from COVID-19 comes from progressive “consolidation” of the lung, meaning your lungs start filling up with something other than air. In the case of regular pneumonia, that’s largely pus. In COVID-19 pneumonia, postmortems show you drown in lungs that are “filled with clear liquid jelly.”

But the good news is that there are modifiable risk factors for death and disability from COVID-19, meaning things you have control over that can reduce your risk, which we’ll explore next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Motion graphics by AvoMedia

Image credit: annaj via pixabay. Image has been modified.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

What does the clinical course of COVID-19 look like? It tends to start with fever and cough, but before then, the average incubation period—the time between the moment you get sufficiently exposed to the virus and the moment you start showing symptoms—seems to be about five days. So, almost a week goes by when you’re infected—and potentially infectious—before you even know it. About 98 percent of those who are going to start showing symptoms do so by day 12, which explains why people are typically asked to self-quarantine for two weeks after a potential exposure. After infection, apparent viral shedding may continue for more than a month (with an average of 20 days), though it’s not clear how contagious survivors are—if at all—during that extended time period.

The most common symptoms are fever and cough, experienced by about 90 percent and 70 percent of patients, respectively, based on an analysis of more than fifty thousand COVID-19 patients. In terms of less common symptoms, only about four in ten experience fatigue; three in ten cough up phlegm; and two in ten experience muscle aches. Only about one in ten suffer from gastrointestinal symptoms, such as nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea, or common cold-type symptoms, like a runny or stuffy nose, headache, or a sore throat. This is consistent with the regional concentration of ACE2—the receptors the virus latches onto—in the lungs, rather than the nose or throat (though in pangolins, ACE2 is found on their flicking anteater tongues).

Here’s a chart that can help you differentiate between COVID-19, the common cold, the flu, or seasonal allergies. The only COVID-19 symptom found predictive of a more severe course was difficulty breathing, which resulted in more than six times the odds of eventually having to be admitted into the ICU. That’s why that’s such an important symptom to catch early, and a red flag to immediately seek medical attention. If it’s going to strike, shortness of breath usually hits a week after symptoms begin.

The notion that the course of about 80 percent of cases are “mild” was derived from an analysis by the Chinese CDC that was based on nearly 45,000 confirmed cases. While there are certainly mild and even asymptomatic cases, it’s important to understand what “mild” means to the Chinese CDC. Its definition of mild included those with so-called “walking pneumonia,” meaning pneumonia not dire enough to require supplemental oxygen or hospitalization, but pneumonia nonetheless—certainly not the “common cold”-type courses people might think of when they hear the word mild—though the cases were at least mild enough that people should be able to treat themselves at home.

The remaining 20 or so percent of confirmed cases were classified as severe (about 15 percent), which involved difficulty getting enough oxygen, or critical (5 percent), encompassing respiratory failure, septic shock, and multisystem organ failure. About half of those critical cases died. So, about 80 percent mild, 15 percent severe, and 5 percent critical––though that doesn’t include all the asymptomatic cases that escaped detection completely, and never became confirmed cases at all.

Because as many as four-fifths of cases are asymptomatic, the risk of dying after being infected may end up ranging from 1 in 1,000 to about 1 in 300, though if you do show symptoms, the risk of death may be more like 1 in 150.

On autopsy, the respiratory surface of the lung under a microscope appears obliterated by scar tissue. Pulmonary fibrosis (lung scarring) is expected to become one of the long-term complications among survivors of serious COVID-19 infection. A six-month follow-up of SARS survivors found about one in three showed evidence of scarring on chest x-ray, and up to one in six suffered a significant impairment in lung function.

Death from COVID-19 comes from progressive “consolidation” of the lung, meaning your lungs start filling up with something other than air. In the case of regular pneumonia, that’s largely pus. In COVID-19 pneumonia, postmortems show you drown in lungs that are “filled with clear liquid jelly.”

But the good news is that there are modifiable risk factors for death and disability from COVID-19, meaning things you have control over that can reduce your risk, which we’ll explore next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Motion graphics by AvoMedia

Image credit: annaj via pixabay. Image has been modified.

Doctor's Note

This is the 7th in a 17-video series on pandemics and COVID-19. If you’ve already seen these videos as part of my two webinars, or already watched the digital download, keep your eyes out on Fridays as we continue our Flashback Friday series, and explore the many topics we have here on NutritionFacts.org.

Here are the first six:

Stay tuned for:

You can download the whole series (for free) right now here, and take an even deeper dive in my new book, How to Survive a Pandemic (note: all my proceeds from this book are donated to pandemic prevention charities).

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

80 responses to “COVID-19 Symptoms vs. the Flu, a Cold, or Allergies

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  1. What they don’t tell you about surviving COVID-19, ‘Recovered’ doesn’t mean healthy again

    Most people who catch the new coronavirus don’t experience severe symptoms, and some have no symptoms at all. COVID-19 saves its worst for relatively few. The lucky ones — if you can call them that — recover, but not in the sense that their lives are back to normal. For some, the damage is permanent. Their organs will never fully heal. When they say ’recovered,’ they don’t tell you that that means you may need a lung transplant, or that you may come back after discharge with a massive heart attack or stroke, because COVID makes your blood thick as hell. Or that you may have to be on oxygen for the rest of your life.

    1. These are my observations (of hospitalized patients):

      1) Everybody is so swollen their skin has blisters and is so tight it looks like it’s about to burst, from head to heel. And skin so dry peeling and flaky that to slather Vaseline on every shift is almost necessary — all over.

      2) Everybody’s skin is weeping clear fluid and has sores and the skin just slides off with slightest turn or rub, all over the body.

      3) Everybody’s blood is thick as slush. Can’t figure out what’s making it clot like that, but it’s dark and thick.

      4) Everybody’s kidneys are failing. Urine dark or red, which could contribute to the swelling, but we don’t know yet.

      5) Everybody has an abnormal heart rhythm. Not sure of the cause. But even without underlying heart problems, it’s not beating normally.

      6) Seems counterproductive, but the ones that are not breathing on the ventilator have to lay flat on their stomachs to breathe better. And even some on the ventilator are on their stomachs. And the slightest turn for some is what leads to their almost immediate death. Bathing, cleaning and turning to prevent skin breakdown causes most to code blue, so a decision has to be made on which is most important.

      7) Everyone has a Foley catheter and a rectal tube — incontinent of bowel and bladder.

      8) Everybody on tube feeding. Everybody.

      Never before in my entire career have I seen a disease process attack in this way.

      — 20-year veteran nurse in NYC

      1. RB, thank you for posting your observations. I thought it added to the clinical symptoms that were discussed in the video. It sure made me stop and think about risk of going out too soon.

        1. Just to correct, those are not my personal direct observations. I do work with public health but am not a front line medical worker currently. The observations are from a hero who shared what people need to know. Sadly it matches what my local nurses are saying too.

          1. What happened with Reality Bites ?
            At 9.40 am he reports ” these are my observations”
            Then at 11.03 am he reports that it is only hearsay ?
            It took an an hour and 3 minutes to realize , oh wait that was not me , that was someone else ?
            I wonder if someone asked him to clarify his comments and he had to make a retraction?

      2. RB,

        Yes, thanks for sharing.

        Dr. John Campbell was talking this weekend about the group of people who are having it hurt their organs. Heart, lungs, kidneys, and brain damage

        Also, 1 in 10 people stays sick for several weeks or months. (Compare that to a normal cold or flu)

        There have been people who survived who got out of the hospital 94 or 100 days later.

      3. Thank you for your insights for us and labor to save as many as you can where you work. May God bless you… May His peace be upon you and your family.

      4. RB,
        Thank you for your insights for us and labor to save as many as you can where you work. May God bless you… May His peace be upon you and your family.

      5. No matter the subject, statements that start with “Everybody” are almost always wrong. This is ESPECIALLY true with regard to COVID-19 symptoms! Judging both from the personal experiences of my friends who have had it and from accounts of other survivors, perhaps the most confounding thing about this virus is the HUGE variability in symptoms/presentation. Certainly there are a number of very common symptoms, but there is not a single symptom that “everybody” has. Not one. Not even the most common symptoms described in the news (cough and fever)!

        If anyone believed that list of symptoms that supposedly “everybody” has with COVID-19, it would cause them to overlook actual symptoms if they’re infected!

      6. This is a total bulshit, pardon my french. I think you didn’t even stand near a “20-year veteran nurse in NYC”.

  2. I note the massive failure of our government and private industry to make available to everyone readily available non-vented N95 masks. Currently we have anti-mask loons who are throwing tantrums that cloth masks are for protecting OTHER people from their own moisture droplets. How dare they be asked to do something for others that they do not see as a direct benefit to them? (Lowering the transmission rate in their area is apparently not enough or too complicated to believe)
    If we had non-vented N95 masks available everywhere then many of these people would hopefully wear them. The rest of society would also have at least something to protect themselves when they have to go out around people who refuse to social distance or wear a mask.

    (vented masks do not protect other people from the wearer as water droplets go right out the vent into the air as if they are not wearing any mask, they are banned in many locations)

    1. Reality bites,

      I would like everybody wearing vented masks because the vent is easier to breathe through but would only be protective if everybody was wearing them.

      Though vented and invented N95 mask combinations would work, too, because the whole point of the N95 is that it is so much more protective.

      Before I gave it to my father, I had a vented N100 mask and it sealed so well and had cooling built into the design and had a vent so it was seriously easy to breathe.

      I don’t have that anymore and my mask gets hot and it is harder to breathe.

      They have masks that actively bring air in through a Hepa filter.

      If we were all wearing masks having some really amazing ones where you don’t get hypoxia would be so great.

      1. Masks are changing in a higher-tech direction.

        https://www.theverge.com/ces/2017/1/3/14161942/wair-air-mask-pollutant-fan-filter-ces-2017

        There are many masks with fresh air fans that are already being sold. Amazon has a whole bunch.

        The ones with the fans cost more obviously. But if people struggle to breathe with a mask, the $35 to $50 might be a good investment.

        When I was getting my oil changed this weekend, the people who have to wear masks 8 hours per day really do struggle with it, particularly in the heat.

        The manager said that he has increased the number of people working so that people can step aside and breathe on a regular basis.

        1. Deb

          That mask ‘helps block out more allergens, bacteria, and other particulates associated with pollution’.according to the article you linked.

          That’s fine but bacteria and most partculates are many times bigger than viruses

          Shouldn’t we be looking for masks that stop viruses also?

      2. When you wear a mask with a valve, a significant portion of your exhalations are entirely unfiltered. A normal cotton mask is far from perfect at capturing virus particles that you might inhale or exhale. (Surgical masks were originally invented to protect patients from coughing and sneezing, not pathogens from the air!) But when you add the valve, you aren’t even filtering your breath with cotton. Your mouth is essentially an open exhaust. Vented masks as I have said have been proven in several studies to not protect other people from the wearer. There is no vented mask that does. I could not care less about minor discomfort for a few months over actually ending this pandemic.

    2. If only there was a way to get masks manufactured? We should put together a task force and talk about: “Well, who’s gonna pay for it?”, and “Are there any tax incentives if we do?”

  3. And, I will try to honor my father but add that he is out at restaurants not wearing the mask that I loved so much.

    They could probably design one with a vent with another Hepa Filter on it, so that it cleans on the way out, too.

    1. I love people who are at least trying to find solutions. So many of us love to complain and then offer zilch. This says a lot about the person behind the post. An optimist who tries to make the world better. Refreshing to see in today’s world. Thank you.

      From my mask experience filters all create back pressure and also retain moisture. A HEPA (aka P100) is also even harder to breathe through than N95. I have seen some power assisted masks on the market that use batteries and fans. Fine if you don’t mind looking like an x-box is stuck to your face.

      1. Reality bites,

        I like it when people are using their ingenuity and coming up with creative solutions, too.

        There will be amazing masks by the Winter.

        They already have ones which bring the air in and purify the exhaled air and send it back out.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_GsnQqQ4oA

        It is exciting that they are getting more and more sophisticated.

        They are expensive for middle class and poor people, but they are under $50 for the most part and for something that can save your life and that you can use every flu season from now forward, that can make it worth it.

        I keep looking at them.

        I have my silver-infused ones and they are selling a lot of copper masks.

        I probably will get one with a fan if I can find one that does purify the air so that I am not putting people at risk or I will combine the fan mask with my silver-infused purifying mask or something.

        I had liked the N99’s until hot, humid weather.

      2. Yes, there are some people trying to find small solutions to things which, in the grand scheme of things, are small things, including Covid.

        The solutions lie in changing our political landscape. I don’t refer to picking either of the mirored sides of our current one party corporate system, but rather a way forward without cronyism and profit self intersted profit structure.

        A solution, offered here, which is a bit more to bite off than to figure out the “masks” issue.

        The short term blip on our screen is this horrible thing, Covid. Not calous, just realistic. We feel for our fellows dying in droves but care less for our war machines destruction in far off lands, so far that they might not exist were it not for some line-toeing journalists spewing hate or misinformation about them.

        Coved, yes its a bad thing we will deal with eventually, but its a distraction only, and again still underkills the flu…i admit – just so far with numbers still coming. But the flu happens every year folks.

        And by the way anyone who feels near death ventilator wearing flu survivors go run a marathon the next day, or year, or decade, may want to look it up.

        It says a lot about the person behind the post, if I may be judgmental without looking into another perspective than what I can conjure.

  4. The consistent number one source of covid-19 infections we are finding doing contact tracing: inappropriate social gatherings. Ever since Mother’s day weekend it has been the same thing. Graduation parties, family bbq’s, memorial day weekend, etc groups of people still are getting together while not social distancing or wearing masks. Two weeks later the local public health departments find out about it as people from those groups test positive and are questioned about past contacts.

    1. I looked at the RT site and, on Thursday, there were 18 states with an R Naught above one. On Friday, there were 26 states with an R Naught above one. Today, there were 31 states with an R Naught above one.

        1. For the United states, as a whole, consistently, roughly 20k to 30k new confirmed infections per day, on average since March 31st. This hasn.t changed throughout the period. Steady.

          Currently we have tested 30 million people.

          In Manhattan you can you can buy n95 masks from any fruit and vegetable vendor, today, even in Harlem.

          For the states as a whole, there is no identifiable outlier uptick in infections since last 3 weeks of mass protests.

          Contact tracing is so gross I cant tell you.

          Not sure what projections websites may say but confirmed cases tells a steady story. Just another infectious disease making its way across a land of generally unhealthy, obese people.

          My doctors office regularly orders pizza and McDonalds for the staff.

    1. Hi, Margarita! If you click the “Sources Cited” link below each video window, you can find the references for that video. There are a couple of charts in the video, and I am not sure which one you want. The first one is found here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32171076/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-1-uid-0 There is another one here: https://www.aafa.org/media/2631/respiratory-illness-symptoms-chart-coronavirus-flu-cold-allergies.png
      I hope that helps!

    1. This goes here:
      Launched in 2016, Swiss Policy Research (SPR) is a research group investigating geopolitical propaganda in Swiss and international media. They report on their about page that “Our articles have been published or shared by numerous independent media outlets and journalists, among them Julian Assange, and have been translated into more than two dozen languages.”

      Swiss Policy Research completely lacks transparency as there is not a single name affiliated with the website. For example, an editor is not named and articles do not name an author. Further, they do not list a geographic location and the domain is registered privately. Finally, ownership is not disclosed.

      Funded by / Ownership

      According to their about page “SPR is composed of independent academics and receives no external funding.” There is no other information available regarding ownership.

      Analysis / Bias

      In review, Swiss Policy Research is a website that purports to investigate geopolitical propaganda in Swiss and international media. They produce news articles as well as investigative analysis. Articles and headlines use minimally loaded wording such as this: Geopolitical propaganda on public radio: An analysis using the example of Swiss radio and television. Although, SPR thoroughly sources information they often use very poor sources that lack credibility. For example, when reporting on the Israel Lobby they provide a link to a video from the Questionable Unz Review, which is classified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center and antisemitic by the Anti-Defamation League. Other sources used include RT and Sputnik, which they openly criticize as Russian Propaganda in other articles.

      In another article they discredit Wikipedia as being a propaganda organization, Wikipedia: A Disinformation Operation? Yet, they are perfectly comfortable using them as a source of information in their analyses.

      Swiss Policy Research is also providing information regarding the Coronavirus with mixed facts and misinformation. In this article, Facts about Covid-19, there is the use of several poor sources to support their claims such as the Daily Mail, Off-Guardian, Sputnik, and Youtube videos. Further, this list of so-called facts also contains unproven conspiracy theories such as this: “NSA wholesaler Edward Snowden warns that the “coronavirus crisis” will be used for the massive and continuous expansion of global surveillance. The well-known virologist Pablo Goldschmidt speaks of “global media terror” and “totalitarian measures.” Leading British virologist, Professor John Oxford, talks about a “media epidemic.” They further state “More than 500 scientists have warned of “unprecedented public oversight” using problematic “contact tracking” applications. In some countries, such “contact tracking” is already carried out directly by secret services. In several parts of the world, the population is already monitored by drones and is facing excessive police supervision.” While any of these may one day turn out to be true, there is zero evidence at this time to support these claims and hence they are unproven conspiracy theories.

      The website also promotes other unproven conspiracy theories such as the majority of the USA media being controlled by The Council on Foreign Relations, the Bilderbergs, and the Trilateral Commission. While there is no question there is a corporate monopoly in USA media ownership, there isn’t evidence to support their claims. This story again uses Wikipedia as a source, which they have discredited numerous times. In general, this is a conspiracy website that is not credible due to poor sourcing and lack of transparency.

      Overall, we rate Swiss Policy Research (SPR) a Moderate Conspiracy website based on the promotion of unproven claims. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources and complete lack of transparency. (M. Huitsing 5/21/2020)

      1. Swiss Policy Research: Click on the green letters to go to the linked sources and judge for yourselves. Anyone, any group that conflicts with the official narrative is trashed and discredited – and even censored on social platforms like YouTube and Facebook.
        The article in question: https://swprs.org/a-swiss-doctor-on-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR1_aE4Oabz-B23Lpz8g0GCOZtujjCU8OJFRpnfrOEqq6zIo3OJ794yklj0 [https://swprs.files.wordpress.com/2020/03/covid-19-updates-1.png] Facts about Covid-19 Fully referenced facts about Covid-19, provided by experts in the field, to help our readers make a realistic risk assessment.
        swprs.org

        1. José Roldan,

          There are credible clinical sources that are saying that there seems to be a mutation that is much less virulent than what it was. Where in Italy, for instance, people who would have died in the spring are now less likely to die.

          https://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-is-weakening-could-die-out-without-vaccine-specialist-claims-632324

          We also know that Arizona has a mutation that is less virulent and that Florida and Brazil have mutations that are more contagious.

          But the global deaths are still adding up and we have still been having 5000 deaths per day globally and we are about to cross 500,000 counted COVID-19 deaths.

          Even if it has mutated to be less virulent, that doesn’t mean that the version we had wasn’t virulent and it doesn’ t mean that we won’t get another virulent version like happened with Swine Flu and the Pandemic of 1918. Both of those had easy summers where very few people died, followed by second winters where more people died than they had the first winter.

          It seems like the version that calls it the flu ignores what happened in Italy and in the New York area and what had happened in Spain and what is happening now in Brazil and Mexico and other places.

      2. “While any of these may one day turn out to be true, there is zero evidence at this time to support these claims and hence they are unproven conspiracy theories.”
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnnRvyLS4Lg
        Of course, the government is interested in expanding the range of the surveillance state. Any accusations about conspiracy theories dismissive in nature are either woefully naive or maliciously planted by agents working for the intelligence community.
        Wake up, people.

      3. The response you´ve just copy-pasted is hypocritical, fraudulent and biased on multiple levels: 1) It attacks anonymity, rather than substance.2) It classifies relevant information as “conspiracy theories” in a derogatory attempt to undermining the general public´s perception of an entire body of knowledge. 3) It lies – for example, what are claimed to be “unproven conspiracy theories” are, in fact, verifiable facts. 4) It attempts to discredit well substantiated platforms of information, through attacks on small lines of reason. 5) It has a political agenda, through direct ties to the Council of Foreign Relationships.

        From the same “fact checking” website:

        “Dr. Greger and NutritionFacts.org makes “zealot” like claims about the benefits of a vegan plant based diet. In their article, Science Based Medicine debunks one by one, many of Dr. Gregers claims. They also claim that NutritionFacts cherry picks information that will always favor veganism. NutritionFacts.org does provide some valuable information and certainly a diet high in fruits and vegetables is preferred, but Dr. Gregers claims are extreme. Overall, we rate NutritionFacts.org a moderate Pseudoscience source due to exaggerated health claims.”

        So, next time someone tells you that Dr. Greger and NutritionFacts.org are vegan zealots who cherry pick information to fit their pseudoscience based website, just nod and concur – after all, it´s straight out of the mouthpieces that do your own thinking…

        1. Looking at what they say about Dr. Greger.

          The funny thing is, people only do enough to reverse their diseases if they move from generalities of diet to a more comprehensive approach.

          I would say that when I was growing up, I might have heard that vegetables were good for you, but I also heard milk and animal products were good for you and what I know for sure is that I didn’t have any concept that people could change their diet and reverse heart disease or diabetes. I look at Forks Over Knives testimonials and people who used to be on dialysis no longer need it. People no longer need heart transplants or kidney transplants. People stop the progression of MS and Parkinson’s in its tracks. People have had blindness reversed with diet. The fact that so many people get off every medicine and don’t need surgery anymore and suddenly can climb mountains when they couldn’t even walk two steps are real examples of what has happened to people who go Whole Food Plant-Based.

          If it weren’t for the tireless work of people like Dr. Greger, I never would have even heard of any of it and I would have heard that vegetables are good for you but I had NO concept that vegetables might have so much power to heal.

          I watched the beginning of “Eating You Alive” wait, or was it “Forks Over Knives” I can’t remember. I also can’t remember the name of the sweet, tender-hearted doctor whose father had pancreatic cancer and there was nothing to do so he looked up foods that heal and gave his father plant-foods and his father’s cancer went away and the doctor said that his father’s doctor asked, “What did you do?” or a similar question, but immediately stopped listening when the answer was dietary.

          What I remember is that he started tearing up that the doctor wouldn’t listen even to the possibility that diet could heal people of cancer and when he started tearing up, I started tearing up.

          Dr. Greger deserves respect and I know that you just posted what a site said and I understand the spirit with which it was intended, but I am going to say it again that Dr. Greger deserves respect.

          1. The whole exaggerated claims thing maybe because so much of the reality of Plant-Based sounds so far-fetched.

            She rolled in in a wheelchair and in three weeks’ time she was walking 10 miles a day.

            Pretty special for anecdotal evidence.

            I wanted to share this one of Dr. Greger because I loved his father’s photograph. Special.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evhUeWVSe6w

              1. I genuinely love you. And, yes, the internet is a really stupid place to say real things.

                But listening to your story brought tears to my eyes several times.

                You had accomplished so much by 25 and I was still mostly just trying to kill myself back then.

                1. And, no, I am not using the word eros. So much confusion in the English language that we use the same word for every type of thing.

        2. Jose

          The pieces on the SBM website you refer to are written by Harriet Hall, an MD who apparently thinks that her personal opinions and ‘science’ are one and the same thing. They aren’t.

          First, she doesn’t appear to acknowledge that Greger promotes whole food plant based diets not so-called vegan and vegetarian diets as such. In fact, he is on the public record as stating that most so-called vegan and vegetarian diets are unhealthy.

          Second, the US dietary guidelines and the (US) Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics have both stated that well-planned ‘vegan’ and vegetarian diets are healthful. Their positions represent the current scientific position. Harriet Hall’s position merely represents her own opinions and prejudices.

          None of this however justifies the absurd conspiracies peddled by you and the sites you promote here.

          1. You are confused, as I did not refer to any SBM website and am unfamiliar with Harriet Hall. Now, if you have a problem with the many many pages of information annotated on the Swiss Policy Covid facts page, feel free to post up the ones that appear to you to be conspiracy theories. Also, which absurd conspiracies exactly am I peddling? Is this modern day McCarthyism? – the naming of anyone who disagrees with the official and main stream media narrative a conspiracy theorist? I prefer to deal in facts.

            1. I apologise Jose. My post was intended to be a response to the comment immediately following yours by ‘Anonymous’.

              1. No problem. But, on the subject of conspiracies, we have all heard reports that medical staff are killing patients. This report sheds light on this deeply troubling situation and the motives. For your consideration.

                https://ahrp.org/covid-19-has-turned-public-health-into-a-lethal-patient-killing-experimental-endeavor/ [https://ahrp.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/REMAP-CAP-Experiment_Imperial-College.jpg] Covid-19 Has Turned Public Health Into a Lethal, Patient-Killing Experimental Endeavor – Alliance for Human Research Protection – ahrp.org Dr. Meryl Nass has uncovered a hornet’s nest of government sponsored Hydroxychloroquine experiments that were designed to kill severely ill, Covid-19 hospitalized patients. On June 14th Dr. Nass first identified two Covid-19 experiments in which massive, high toxic doses – four times higher than safe of hydroxychloroquine were being given to severely ill hospitalized patients… ahrp.org

      4. There is no such thing as a conspiracy. ….Only a theory of a conspiracy can exist.

        Once its true, its not a conspiracy. …Its truth.

        But, how can a theory of a conspiracy exist, when conspiracy theories aren’t true?

        How can truth exist, if it was once a theory of a conspiracy?

        If a theory of a conspiracy exists, then becomes truth, then there can be such a thing as a conspiracy.

        And if so, then truth itself, is a conspiracy.

        -reprinted without the permission of The New York Times
        from an non-existant article about Pegasus software developer, NSO

  5. On another note, I’ve gotten bull from others on the street for my cough, which is allergy induced. I am always masked outdoors and in public places because I am aware that coughs and sneezes from another source get conflated with COVID 19 . The major benefit to me of wearing masks this spring is a substantial reduction in my allergy symptoms. The masks may not keep out the coronavirus but they clearly keep out pollen!

    1. Suz,

      It’s good to know that cloth masks apparently effectively trap normal mouth bacteria from coughs). I wonder about sneezing? And what about higher bacterial loads — say, from a bacterial respiratory illness?

      Since a bacteria is about 0.5 um, and a coronavirus particle (it’s not a cell) is about 0.1 um, it would be interesting to know how effective these masks are at trapping viral particles. Especially at high loads due to illness.

      1. Isn’t the mask blocking particles leaving the mouth and/or nose? I think you’re saying that more bacteria would be carried in a sick person’s particles, but I was thinking this wouldn’t matter so much since the particles aren’t even getting through the masks in the first place. Am I missing something here?

        1. Suzanne,

          Sneezes would have way more force behind them.

          Too bad they didn’t give her pepper to sniff and have her sneeze on the Petri dishes.

          It would be interesting if any doctor who tested positive did the study coughing through the mask themselves since viruses range in size from 0.02 to 0.25 micron so they are much smaller and can generally get through cloth masks.

          Since zero bacteria grew in that example, I doubt bacterial load would be a factor.

          But viruses are so much smaller and I believe they tested how much they penetrated various materials.

          The cloth masks end up with an advantage because the other masks trap the particles so well that they were filthy.

          I do think the masks or the electrostatic treatment of the masks trap the particles. That was from another video from a different lab and the outside of the masks are filthy after.

          Wash your hands if you touch your mask at all.

          1. jazzBass,

            I liked the part where he talked about how there was only a 5.4% spread versus 48% spread in countries where people wear masks versus not wearing them about 7.11.

            1. Yep definitely interesting stuff. And too,at 11:21 where they talk about Japan not doing a lock down, and achieving a total current death toll of 955 people. Subways open, karaoke bars open, etc. Ever been on a Japanese subway? (like sardines)

              Wear masks, bandanas, scarfs, whatever, and go to work and play.

              If we all did this during flu season as well, we would save 60,000 lives a year.

    1. I am very surprised to hear that JohnS, because I frequently lose my sense of taste/smell with colds and flu. It happened again when I was ill this past Christmas.

      1. Barb,
        Thanks for your post on the last thread about sorghum grain. Funny: There used to be a feel better product for people with ageing problems like low energy and arthritis. It was called Geritol and marketed heavily on TV. It was found, if I have this correct, that the product was only black strap mollassas, which may be another name for sorghum mollassas. I was not aware that the grain of sorghum has a health benefit. I’m eager to try it.

        1. yw Dan, and just a final note on this to clear up any confusion…

          Geritol has had a long and somewhat troubled history. Looking at the label, I probably could do with some methionine and choline, as well as the iron, but I prefer a liquid iron product by Salus Floravital or something like that.
          https://www.geritol.com/geritol-supplements/geritol-tonic
          Are you from the south Dan? I looked up the sorghum syrup which does differ from cane molasses that we use here.
          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_sorghum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molasses

          1. Barb,
            I live in Oklahoma which is considered south. Thanks for the history on sorghum. I think black strap molassas comes from sugar cane and not sorghum grass / cane. Sorghum used to be grown here a lot. Molassas is in grain feed but I’m not sure if it comes from sorghum or sugar canes. These are both sugar producing cane, just different species maybe.
            I did not know Geritol is still around. I remember its main benefit was for “iron poor blood.” If it has lots of iron in it, maybe this is a valid claim. If Geritol is black strap molassas (only), then it comes from sugar cane. In India molassas is sold as a health food.

            1. Sorghum history shows it came into use in the south when Civil War supply lines for regular sugar were cut off. Another Civil War food story is that troops ate what they found on farms but passed on field peas because they thought peas were animal food. In actuality, peas are some of the best nutrition to be found.

      1. jazzBass,

        It could be one.

        Some of my COVID-19 symptoms are going to the WorldOmeter site, watching MedCram and Dr. John Campbell, going to the R Naught site, Googling COVID-19 hospitalizations. Coming here was already a symptom of something else.

        I watched the video about Dr. Greger’s life and his parents were helping the fight against discrimination and racism and he was feeding the homeless and I have been looking at new ways of housing the homeless and protecting them and I feel like I knew who Dr. Greger was without hearing any of it about him.

        I think finding WFPB already has caused me to look for better thinkers for every social problem. Tonight, I was thinking about the heatwave and COVID-19 and poor people and how Chicago bought cooling vehicles for the dead bodies, not for the living bodies and I ended up finding a lot of people with really interesting bus concepts for homeless people. Now, they just need a Plant-Based food bus to come after the sleep bus and before the shower and laundry bus. I am going to keep looking and find people who are doing real things. That is what WFPB is. It is a real thing.

        I have been worried about the heatwave and poor people going through COVID-19 and I ended up finding creative solutions that are out there.

        They have sleep buses concepts

        https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sleepbus-homeless-shelter_n_5706edf5e4b0c4e26a22463d

        They have shower and laundry buses

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36yBA1uOnRE

      1. Perhaps that was snarky, but I just never cease to be amazed when the concept of an entity which requires the suspension of reality (at least we can see covid in a microscope image) enters the arena of postings on a website who’s goal is to present evidence based information.

        I do hope that we can end human suffering, and I am certain if we do, it will be because of what we’ve done eliminate divergent technocratic profits/fear based self interest designated by physical synthetic borders between peoples of one human race. Not because of a plea to a selective apparition.

        I believe Dr. Greger is fighting for all humans to achieve the restorative health his grandma achieved, and working every day to prove it is the WFPB way that is the reason. Through science but with progressive open thinking.

        I think its why we are all here, and I really dont care about so much of the generally erstwhile and oblivious, though unwittingly limited, thinking I experience below the vid…

        I just can help myself though, its like slowing down at a car accident…

        1. jazzBass,

          I don’t mind snarky comments from people who are genuinely trying to be a part of the solution.

          More and more doctors are talking about how strange COVID is.

          It fits perfectly within our paradoxical system. It mutates more contagious and less virulent and more confusing every day.

          Every country seems to have its own version and the press wants to hype it up and down and up and down.

          In Italy, the people like 90 year olds who used to die, aren’t dying now, but 16 year old sons of medical people are dying elsewhere.

          I am not moved away from my concept of God and won’t get easily offended by people not having a concept of design in creation.

  6. I ended up trying to get the sleeping bus concepts to Hong Kong where people are living in cage houses because the cost of an apartment is 4 times the average salary and rising.

    I am captured by the concept that there could be homeless bus terminals instead of shelters and the shower bus could show up and the food bus could show up and sleep buses could show up and there could be terminal style chairs where people could sit in inclement weather.

    It seems efficient.

  7. I found a Nrf2 and wound healing article.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5733319/

    Okay, I am officially going to ask for wound healing and gangrene as potential topics but I won’t be mad if you don’t do them.

    I am convinced that we are not giving the patients the best care possible for either of those.

    First off, there is no mention of diet by the doctors.

    Secondly, they don’t use infrared, ultrasound, PEMF or anything specifically to improve blood flow or collagen formation.

    Third, they aren’t really using fancy wound dressings and fancy wound dressings cost a whole lot less than an amputation.

    They didn’t use the fancy wound dressings when they gave my grandmother bedsores and they gave them to her.

    The wound coverings I bought on the internet were better than the ones they were using and theirs tore her skin and didn’t have the properties I was looking for based on specialists talking on YouTube videos.

    They aren’t trying hard enough to save the body parts.

    They just plain aren’t trying hard at all and that is not fair.

  8. This was one example of the ultrasound treatments. 4 treatments made such a huge difference and back in 2014 they made a portable unit and that still isn’t out yet but I did buy an ultrasound home unit when I got injured. It didn’t help as much as the PEMF eventually did but still, that would healed so much after 4 treatments and it is 2020 and they aren’t doing it. They are having wounds not heal for 30 years and they are cutting peoples’ toes off.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2K0Wqv1T5I

    I am so confused about doctors.

    Even electricity can help.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/watch-scientists-use-electricity-herd-skin-cells-sheep

    https://www.fanaticalfuturist.com/2019/08/researchers-use-electricity-to-heal-wounds-500-percent-faster/

    I am trying to figure out which one works best because I have them all.

  9. They are going to implant all kinds of things in people and they aren’t going to use electromeds or enzymes to deal with the biofilms. They are going to give people peglegs instead and have them die.

  10. 14% of Sweden’s population has developed antibodies, which suggests previous exposure to the virus. This is an absolute minimum as we don’t know how long the antibodies last in humans. If it is similar to other corona viruses then the antibodies might be shorter lived.

    This means a MINIMUM of 1,432,200 Swedes have had COVID-19. 4,939 have died. This is a MAXIMUM case fatality rate of 0.35% which is similar to a bad influenza season like 2018.

  11. This is a good start. However, a more detailed and up to date analysis (11 pages) based on CDC and WHO data can be found at the redirector:
    TinyURL.com/ItsTheFlu

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