Should Vegetarians Take Creatine to Normalize Homocysteine?

Should Vegetarians Take Creatine to Normalize Homocysteine?
4.59 (91.72%) 99 votes

What are the consequences of having to make your own creatine rather than relying on dietary sources?

Discuss
Republish

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

“Almost universally, research findings show a poor vitamin B12 status among vegetarians,” because they’re not taking vitamin B12 supplements like they should, and this results in an elevation in homocysteine levels that may explain why vegetarians were recently found to have higher rates of stroke.

Of course, plant-based eating is just one of many ways to get B12 deficient. Even laughing gas can do it… in as short as two days… thanks to the recreational use of whipped cream canister gas—that’s something new I learned today.

Anyways, if you do eat plant-based, giving vegetarians and vegans even as little as 50 micrograms once a day of cyanocobalamin, the recommended, most stable form of vitamin B12 supplement and their homocysteine levels start up in the elevated zone, and within 1 to 2 months their homocysteine normalizes right down into the safe zone under 10. Or just 2000 micrograms of cyanocobalamin once a week, and you get the same beautiful result, but not always. In this study even 500 micrograms a day, either as a sublingual chewable or swallowable regular B12 supplement, didn’t normalize homocysteine within a month. Now, presumably, if they had kept it up their levels would have continued to fall like in the other study. But, if you’re plant-based and have been taking your B12 and your homocysteine level is still too high, meaning above 10, is there anything else you can do?

Now, inadequate folate intake can also increase homocysteine, but folate comes from the same root as foliage, it’s found in leaves, concentrated in greens, as well as beans. But if you’re eating beans and greens, taking your B12, and your homocysteine level is still too high, then I’d suggest trying, as an experiment, taking one gram of creatine a day and getting your homocysteine levels retested in a month to see if it helped.

Creatine is a compound formed naturally in the human body that is primarily involved with energy production in our muscles and brain. It’s also naturally formed in the bodies of many animals we eat; and so, when we eat their muscles we can also take in some creatine through our diet. We need about two grams a day; so, those who eat meat may get like one gram from their diet, and their body makes the rest from scratch. There are rare birth defects where you’re born without the ability to make it, in which case you have to get it from your diet, but otherwise our bodies can make as much as we need to maintain normal concentrations in our muscles.

When you cut out meat, the amount of creatine floating around in your bloodstream goes down, but the amount in your brain remains the same; showing dietary creatinine doesn’t influence the levels of brain creatinine, because your brain just makes all the creatine you need. The level in vegetarian muscles is lower, but that doesn’t seem to affect performance, as both vegetarians and meat-eaters respond to creatine supplementation with similar increases in muscle power output. And, if vegetarian muscle creatine was insufficient, then presumably they would have seen an even bigger boost. So basically, all that happens when you eat meat is that your body just doesn’t have to make as much. What does this all have to do with homocysteine?

In the process of making creatine, your body produces homocysteine as a waste product. Now, normally this isn’t a problem because your body has two ways to detoxify it, using vitamin B6, or using a combination of vitamins B12 and folate. Vitamin B6 is found in both plant and animal foods and it’s rare to be deficient, but B12 is mainly in animal foods; and so, can be too low in those eating plant-based who don’t supplement or eat B12 fortified foods. And, folate is concentrated in plant foods; so, can be low in those who don’t regularly eat greens or beans or folic-acid fortified grains, and without that escape valve, homocysteine levels can get too high. If, however, you’re eating a healthy plant-based diet and taking your B12 supplement your homocysteine levels should be fine, but what if they’re not? One might predict that if you started taking creatine supplements, the level of homocysteine might go down since you’re not going to have to be making so much of it from scratch, producing homocysteine as a by-product, but you don’t know, until you put it to the test, which we’ll cover, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

“Almost universally, research findings show a poor vitamin B12 status among vegetarians,” because they’re not taking vitamin B12 supplements like they should, and this results in an elevation in homocysteine levels that may explain why vegetarians were recently found to have higher rates of stroke.

Of course, plant-based eating is just one of many ways to get B12 deficient. Even laughing gas can do it… in as short as two days… thanks to the recreational use of whipped cream canister gas—that’s something new I learned today.

Anyways, if you do eat plant-based, giving vegetarians and vegans even as little as 50 micrograms once a day of cyanocobalamin, the recommended, most stable form of vitamin B12 supplement and their homocysteine levels start up in the elevated zone, and within 1 to 2 months their homocysteine normalizes right down into the safe zone under 10. Or just 2000 micrograms of cyanocobalamin once a week, and you get the same beautiful result, but not always. In this study even 500 micrograms a day, either as a sublingual chewable or swallowable regular B12 supplement, didn’t normalize homocysteine within a month. Now, presumably, if they had kept it up their levels would have continued to fall like in the other study. But, if you’re plant-based and have been taking your B12 and your homocysteine level is still too high, meaning above 10, is there anything else you can do?

Now, inadequate folate intake can also increase homocysteine, but folate comes from the same root as foliage, it’s found in leaves, concentrated in greens, as well as beans. But if you’re eating beans and greens, taking your B12, and your homocysteine level is still too high, then I’d suggest trying, as an experiment, taking one gram of creatine a day and getting your homocysteine levels retested in a month to see if it helped.

Creatine is a compound formed naturally in the human body that is primarily involved with energy production in our muscles and brain. It’s also naturally formed in the bodies of many animals we eat; and so, when we eat their muscles we can also take in some creatine through our diet. We need about two grams a day; so, those who eat meat may get like one gram from their diet, and their body makes the rest from scratch. There are rare birth defects where you’re born without the ability to make it, in which case you have to get it from your diet, but otherwise our bodies can make as much as we need to maintain normal concentrations in our muscles.

When you cut out meat, the amount of creatine floating around in your bloodstream goes down, but the amount in your brain remains the same; showing dietary creatinine doesn’t influence the levels of brain creatinine, because your brain just makes all the creatine you need. The level in vegetarian muscles is lower, but that doesn’t seem to affect performance, as both vegetarians and meat-eaters respond to creatine supplementation with similar increases in muscle power output. And, if vegetarian muscle creatine was insufficient, then presumably they would have seen an even bigger boost. So basically, all that happens when you eat meat is that your body just doesn’t have to make as much. What does this all have to do with homocysteine?

In the process of making creatine, your body produces homocysteine as a waste product. Now, normally this isn’t a problem because your body has two ways to detoxify it, using vitamin B6, or using a combination of vitamins B12 and folate. Vitamin B6 is found in both plant and animal foods and it’s rare to be deficient, but B12 is mainly in animal foods; and so, can be too low in those eating plant-based who don’t supplement or eat B12 fortified foods. And, folate is concentrated in plant foods; so, can be low in those who don’t regularly eat greens or beans or folic-acid fortified grains, and without that escape valve, homocysteine levels can get too high. If, however, you’re eating a healthy plant-based diet and taking your B12 supplement your homocysteine levels should be fine, but what if they’re not? One might predict that if you started taking creatine supplements, the level of homocysteine might go down since you’re not going to have to be making so much of it from scratch, producing homocysteine as a by-product, but you don’t know, until you put it to the test, which we’ll cover, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Doctor's Note

This is the 11th in a 12-video series exploring stroke risk. If you missed the last few, see Vegetarians and Stroke Risk Factors—Vitamin B12 & Homocysteine? and How to Test for Functional Vitamin B12 Deficiency.

This whole creatine angle was something new to me. I had long worried about homocysteine levels being too high among those getting inadequate B12 intake, but didn’t realize there was potentially another potential mechanism for bring it down other than vitamin B intake. Let’s see if it pans out in my final video of the series: The Efficacy and Safety of Creatine for High Homocysteine.

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

161 responses to “Should Vegetarians Take Creatine to Normalize Homocysteine?

Comment Etiquette

On NutritionFacts.org, you'll find a vibrant community of nutrition enthusiasts, health professionals, and many knowledgeable users seeking to discover the healthiest diet to eat for themselves and their families. As always, our goal is to foster conversations that are insightful, engaging, and most of all, helpful – from the nutrition beginners to the experts in our community.

To do this we need your help, so here are some basic guidelines to get you started.

The Short List

To help maintain and foster a welcoming atmosphere in our comments, please refrain from rude comments, name-calling, and responding to posts that break the rules (see our full Community Guidelines for more details). We will remove any posts in violation of our rules when we see it, which will, unfortunately, include any nicer comments that may have been made in response.

Be respectful and help out our staff and volunteer health supporters by actively not replying to comments that are breaking the rules. Instead, please flag or report them by submitting a ticket to our help desk. NutritionFacts.org is made up of an incredible staff and many dedicated volunteers that work hard to ensure that the comments section runs smoothly and we spend a great deal of time reading comments from our community members.

Have a correction or suggestion for video or blog? Please contact us to let us know. Submitting a correction this way will result in a quicker fix than commenting on a thread with a suggestion or correction.

View the Full Community Guidelines

  1. Thank you Dr. Greger for your amazing work! I’ve just bought How not to diet and I’m advising everyone to buy it!
    I’m vegetarian for 20 years and I’m extremely interested on the correlation between plant based diet and IQ. Is there any research that shows that switching to a plant based diet increases the IQ or any form of our intelligence?
    Congratulations for your amazing books and videos!

    1. Cm,
      (comment from the peanut gallery): If one eats plant based in a way that promotes good health and longevity, that person would have more brain function than someone who ate poorly and died earlier. Okay, this is obvious. There are some studies showing plant affects on test performance, like Dr. Greger’s video on lavender, showing the fragrance of lavender improved math scores. Correlation is not causation, but Leonardo da Vinci was vegan and was perhaps one of the most intellectually productive humans before or after him.

      1. Dr. Greger has done a video explaining school kids perform better academically when adequately hydrated. He also has shown that blueberries (antioxident content) may be preventative for Alzheimer’s. Nitrogen oxide in beets improve endothelial function (the brain is vascularized). Coffee (cafeine) may boost brain function.

    2. Carlo,

      As of 2019, there aren’t studies on it. There are studies where the brain is healthier without all of the blocked arteries, etc. But healthier may not equal IQ.

      Though, if being healthier does not make you more intelligent, then, what is the definition of intelligence?

      1. It’s a tricky one.

        Do plant based dates increase IQ or is it just that people with high IQs are more likely to become vegetarians?

        “Conclusion Higher scores for IQ in childhood are associated with an increased likelihood of being a vegetarian as an adult”
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790759/

        To be honest, I am not aware of any studies that suggest that plant based diets actually increase IQ. There are however quite a few that suggest that they protect IQ by reducing the risk of cognitive decline. For example
        https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/110/4/912/5543218

        and also eg

        ‘Our prospective findings relating diet over 2 decades to SCF in later life support the hypothesis that higher long-term intake of vegetables and fruits can have an important role in maintaining cognitive function. The relation with vegetable and fruit intake was seen independently for intake 18–22 years and 6–10 years before assessment of SCF. Subgroups of vegetables, fruits, and fruit juices that appeared particularly important included green leafy vegetables, carotenoid-rich vegetables, berry fruits, and orange juice.’
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6336164/

        and “Epidemiological studies have shown that consumption of fruits, nuts, and vegetables is positively associated with cognitive ability …………..While additional research is needed, increasing fruit, nut, and vegetable intake may be an effective strategy to prevent or delay the onset of cognitive dysfunction during aging.”
        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0531556516306064?via%3Dihub

        Plant based diets also tend to be low in saturated fatty acids (SFA), unlike eg keto and carnivore diets, and SFA consumption has long been linked with cognitive decline eg

        ‘Higher SFA intake was associated with worse global cognitive (p-linear-trend=0.008) and verbal memory (p-linear-trend=0.01) trajectories. There was a higher risk of worst cognitive change, comparing highest vs. lowest SFA quintiles: the multivariable-adjusted odds ratio (OR) (95% confidence interval, CI) was 1.64 (1.04,2.58) for global cognition and 1.65 (1.04,2.61) for verbal memory.’
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3405188/

        I’ve always suspected that this is the reason behind some of the less-than-intelligent comments posted here by the occasional keto/low carb etc visitors.

        1. Mr Fumblefingers,

          You wrote: “I’ve always suspected that this is the reason behind some of the less-than-intelligent comments posted here by the occasional keto/low carb etc visitors.”

          A little harsh.

          But amusin’.

          It is difficult to tease out cause vs. effect on that one . . .

          Best regards,

          Vivamus

        1. Viv, this is what I’m talking about with Docs making assumptions lol.

          I simply wondered if Robinson gave Jolly the herbal meds rather than her having to purchase them.

    3. There are similar claims posted on a number of internet sites.

      This reminds me a South African site that used to post a torrent of fake testimonials claiming cures for a raft of illnesses on health message boards everywhere.

      Cynical old me thinks that this is just another viral marketing campaign by whoever is (claiming to be) ‘Dr Robinson Buckler’.

      SPAM.

    4. It appears that while there are definite indications that a wfpb diet enhances brain function and cognition (& as pointed out we know that certain foods in a WFPB diet are strongly correlated with better Intelligence and brain function, the definitive research hasn’t yet been done to demonstrate this. Here are two comprehensive reviews that give us again indications of the connection but both conclude “more research needed.”

      The effects of plant-based diets on the body and the brain: a systematic review https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6742661/
      “Based on this systematic review of randomized clinical trials, there is an overall robust support for beneficial effects of a plant-based diet on metabolic measures in health and disease. However, the evidence for cognitive and mental effects of a plant-based diet is still inconclusive…. The evidence for effects of strictly plant-based diets on cognition is very limited. For other plant-based diets such as the Mediterranean diet or DASH diet, there are more available studies that indicate protective effects on cardiovascular and brain health in the aging population….(citing ) evidence that microbial diversity may be associated with brain health, although underlying mechanisms and candidate signaling molecules remain unknown”.

      Plant-Based Dietary Patterns, Plant Foods, and Age-Related Cognitive Decline https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/10/Supplement_4/S422/5624068/
      As yet, there is no direct evidence to support the benefits of a vegetarian diet in preventing cognitive decline. However, there is emerging evidence for brain-health–promoting effects of several plant foods rich in polyphenols, anti-inflammatory dietary patterns, and plant-based dietary patterns such as the Mediterranean diet that include a variety of fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts, and whole grains. The bioactive compounds present in these dietary patterns include antioxidant vitamins, polyphenols, other phytochemicals, and unsaturated fatty acids. In animal models these nutrients and non-nutrients have been shown to enhance neurogenesis, synaptic plasticity, and neuronal survival by reducing oxidative stress and neuroinflammation.”
      Glad you are finding How Not to Diet so helpful. Keep eating those whole plant foods for better brain health!

  2. Can you imagine someone with a high IQ trying to figure out how much harm they could do to the health of their brain to become more intelligent?

    If it works, then the IQ test will already not mean quite as much.

    1. Looks at their IQ score and decrees, “It works!” Then, looks at the scan of the damage of the brain and learns something and says, “I am feeling smarter already.”

      1. Raises IQ, makes more money, destroys the planet with it, destroys health with it

        There is no Planet B, and I am not sure the environment can handle all of these smarty pants.

    1. I agree Patrick-Louis Vincent, though a vegan diet is definitly healthier for the animals.

      Another substance which vegetarians can be deficient in is choline. I have been reading up about it here https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/other-nutrients/choline#reference9

      Choline is also involved in homocysteine processes, and deficiency can have undesirable consequences, with liver disease, brain and heart health. Post-menopausal women in this study fared the worst in consuming a choline deficient diet. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17490963/

      This would be a concern for women like myself who eat less than 1500 cal on a wfpb diet getting very little choline.

        1. Thank you. I would appear to be estrogen deficient and have been prescribed synthetic estrogen which I am reluctant to take. Any other suggestions how I might help myself apart from the WFPB food plan?

        2. I’d like more info re estrogen deficient menopausals on the wfpb plan as I’ve been prescribed synthetic estrogen which I am reluctant to take. I’d welcome more suggestions please.
          Some monitor thought I am repeating myself. My earlier posting was not related to this one.

          1. Numa,

            Many whole plant foods contain plant estrogens that offer the positive effects of estrogen ( bone and cardiovascular health) without the negative effects ( breast cancer). Soy and flax are particularly high. Why does your doctor want to give you estrogen? If it’s just for normal menopause, these plant estrogens may be helpful. https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/phytoestrogens/ Eating soy foods does seem to help with menopausal symptoms https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/menopause/

            For getting enough choline, a whole food plant based diet comes close, but supplementing with lecithin is a way to get enough. When i log in my diet on cronometer, I get 325mg out of the required 425 mg of choline per day, so I take about 1/2 tsp of lecithin.

            1. Julie

              Thanks for your reply and links. The synthetic estrogen (not used) was prescriped for vaginal atrophy. I also have a dry mouth and dry eye syndrome for which I use artificial tears without preservative.

              I am more than thirty years menopausal. On the advice of a naturopath I have recently started using natural progesterone cream and waiting for my herbal order of puereria mirifica. I use flaxseeds but have lately reduced a portion of it with flaxseed oil because I also have chronic kidnry disease stage 3. I am seeking the advice of a renal dietitian. A young woman I know has stopped needing painkillers for her period since she started using flaxseeds.

              I have arranged for a referral for an ultrasound scan.

              I think it’s very important to support older wfpb people in what may inevitably be a malfunction in one organ of another. Thank you, Julie, for your contribution to that end. I shall certainly add half a teaspoon of lecithin per day to my ‘Tweaks’.

              1. Numa,

                i certainly wish you the best on your health journey. One more thing I’d like to mention is are you taking algae omega 3? Dr. Greger recommends it as a direct source of the essential fatty acids DHA and EPA, without the toxins of fish. This may help with dry eyes and reduce inflammation by balancing the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 fatty acids.

                Also, have you heard of earthing? Most people dismiss it as crazy, but many don’t. The earth is loaded with negatively charged electrons which quell inflammation and balance our bodies in a way nothing else can. My husband and I have slept on a grounded sheet for almost a decade and we won’t go back. https://earthinginstitute.net/

                1. Thanks again, Julie. Kind of you to think how you might help improve my quality of life. I’ve today started the choline from vegan lecithin and hoping for results in due time. Yes, I have been using vegan EPA/DHA for years. It’s difficult to say if it has made any difference to my dry eyes.
                  Maybe it would be worse without it? There’s only one me to test it on! I also have a dry mouth, esp. at night. I sometimes dissolve a specially formulated white lozenge from the healthfood store in my mouth before I go to bed. Of course it doesn’t last all night and when I wake up in the early hours of my mouth feels dry. I think it’s part of the ageing process for me.
                  I haven’t used an earthing sheet. A friend promised to let me see hers but that never yet happened. I’ll look into it some more. All the best of health to you and your husband.

                  1. I don’t think so. He did warn against animal sources of choline. Choline is tricky because it is an essential nutrient, with a requirement of 425 mg for women and 550 mg/day for men. I find it difficult to get my 425mg on a WFPB diet, so i supplement to get just to the required 425mg. Too much choline, especially from animal sources produces the dangerous TMAO.

      1. Barb: my concerns about vegan diet are vitamin D, vitamin B12, iodine, taurine, alpha lipoid acid, and, yes, choline. Choline is my biggest concern because the others I could take as supplements if I wanted. (Vitamins D and B12 and iodine I do take as supplements.) I’m reluctant to supplement with choline because of its connection to trimethylamine oxide. Dr, Greger, either in a video or in How Not to Die says that in the gut of a vegan there’re no bacteria that can convert choline to trimethylamine, but I’m worried that it might not apply to each and every vegan.

        1. Thanks for your comments George. I have broached the subject with my doctor over past months about b12, iodine, taurine, omega 3s, but not choline as yet. She is a lifestyle centered physician who encourages people to get their nutrients from food whenever possible.

          You probably do just fine with choline (check out vivamus’ post, below for choline rich foods). My issue is that I don’t eat a lot in order to keep weight down, so that effects choline. … and yes, I considered the tmao thing too, but I am not considering supplementing. If anything, I would consider eating seafood once or twice per week or less, and I realise many would find that objectionable.

          So far though George I have to say that my bloodwork continues to impress the doctor (aside from ldl cholesterol) and that’s with little effort on my part. I do take vit D, and a smidgeon of b12, plus lots of exercise/activity.

      2. Barb, how much choline we saying we should get?

        FYI Coffee is both delicious and has 6.2 mg per steaming 0 calorie cup. But the real choline super powers are in soybeans @107, regular beans brussel sprouts @32, potatoes @57, quinoa @43, and this is stuff we all eat regularly right? (add broccolli nuts peas and seeds etc…)

        Too, our bodies make the stuff as well apparent, just a bit less than we need which sounds quite inefficient…Anyway it sounds like you are aware of many of these things…

        Finally, here is an NIH pamphlet on the stuff stating mostly pregos at risk, and never mentions us veggies. https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Choline-HealthProfessional/#h6

        one snippet: “…Although most people in the United States consume less than the AI of choline, frank choline deficiency in healthy, nonpregnant individuals is very rare, possibly because of the contribution of choline that the body synthesizes endogenously [1,5]….”

        1. jb, there is still a lot to learn re choline, but they have put the AI at 550 mg for men, and 425 mg for women. I posted these links above too… the oregonstate link is good.. choline impacts homocysteine, but you can read for yourself.

          Also, in the trial (2nd link) 6 men who got 550 mg/ day suffered muscle and liver damage which are symptoms of deficiency. Just sayin’.

          https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/other-nutrients/choline#reference9
          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17490963/

      3. Choline is very important. I cringe when I get a pregnant patient who insists on a vegan diet, but clearly isn’t getting enough choline. Is it possible to do so? Yes, but takes planning and dietary discipline.
        Frankly, there are no cultures who are vegan for generations so we don’t know the effect. Most have some animal protein even if it’s sources like insects. Some insects, btw, such as those in the grasshopper group, have a high amount of good quality protein.
        Myself, I eat fish such as sardines, salmon or herring twice a week for the choline and omega 3’s.

        1. Marilyn,

          You wrote: “Frankly, there are no cultures who are vegan for generations so we don’t know the effect.”

          Well said.

          “Myself, I eat fish such as sardines, salmon or herring twice a week”

          Sounds wise to me.

          Marilyn.

          Bon appétit –

          Vivamus

          1. It’s my understanding that some people groups have traditionally been vegan for religious/cultural reasons for generations. A study would be feasible but who would undertake it? How do you make money on that?

            1. Numa,

              You could undertake it if you really wanted to.

              It doesn’t require a costly scientific study – just a little demographic research via your favorite Internet search engine should do the job nicely.

              Name the groups.

              Look up life expectancies.

              Done.

              Quicker than you could bake a cherry pie.

              If you are actually interested in the results.

              Betcha a nickel they don’t do all that well.

              ‘Cause you never hear of such cultural groups amongst the longest lived peoples.

              Heck – I’ll go as high as a dime.

              Happy researchin’ –

              Vivamus

              1. Food is only one of many factors influencing longevity. If one is born into generations of wfpb eaters but has no access to clean water or lifestyle medicine, healthcare, or financial and other resources (including friends) one may well die at birth or shortly after.

                1. Numa,

                  You wrote: “How come many rich people live longer than poor people?”

                  Lotsa reasons.

                  Fully understood.

                  But consider – the traditionally long lived peoples were not wealthy, either.

                  Traditional Okinawans were not living with servants in castles, etc.

                  Just scrapin’ by.

                  Same with the other four Blue zone populations.

                  The wealthiest are probably the Seventh Day Adventists. They may all be secret millionaires – but that would probably be a secret to them, too. Those I have known seemed more like regular Joes – a little stricter, perhaps – a little tight – tighter than the Mormons I have known – everyone being careful not to inadvertently give offense to one another – which does somewhat stifle conviviality – typical of people who prefer to socialize amongst themselves – but that sort of tension often exists when you have a meeting of different cultures, no matter how good the intent of all parties may be.

                  So – I find your point about wealth interesting – certainly worth considering – but not in any way disabling in this case.

                  And something that can be easily corrected for. Just wealth match any populations that you wish to compare.

                  It would still – as you have indicated – be interesting to learn whate’r we might about any long term Vegan cultures out there.

                  Choose whatever criteria you like – do a web search if you like – and see what you can see.

                  I would certainly be interested in your results.

                  But don’t expect anyone else to do it for you – and complain when no else one does.

                  Numa.

                  All the best –

                  Vivamus

        2. Marilyn, do you feel it important to get the omega 3’s and choline from animal products over the availability presented in soybeans and potatoes etc, for instance? Baseline 550 for choline yes?

          This is all doable from veggies and a vegan DHA supplement right?

    2. Patrick, well there is something to that, except…If you don’t eat a healthy diet, and get these “supplements” accidentally by eating steak and eggs, what is the benefit there?

      Plenty of Vitamin C in Koolaid right?

      How does this supplementation actually go against a natural diet, if it just means some effort? (I think the supplements can all be derived from natural sources)

      Secondly, wouldn’t you want to get these items by choice, and in good health?

      1. Unfortunately, as a newbie what I’ve learned from this series is that a “vegetarian” diet is not only unhealthy, but downright dangerous. As confirmed by numerous other websites. I’ll be heading directly to the Atkins site and closely follow his recommendations.

          1. Thank you for the links, Barb and Blair. It is sometimes hard to find the opposing viewpoint to studies like EPIC-Oxford that are presented as coming from well-respected experts. This particular study highlights the point that reading only the headlines, abstract and conclusion is not enough.

            1. An interesting exercise is searching “vegan stroke risk debunked,” to see which sources took the EPIC-Oxford study at face value, and which ones did not.

        1. Lol well the Atkins diet goes against science completely and is linked to numerous health problems and disease. If you read Dr. Greger’s intensely researched books, you will see that a well-planned plant-based diet is the way to go. Not to mention the longest living populations in the world eat a plant-based diet.

      2. jazzBass,

        Natural diets used to include the intake of dirt and fecal material and water that wasn’t sanitized.

        People who don’t want to take cyano can always eat their own poop if that feels more natural to them.

    3. Patrick-Louis Vincent,

      “Healthy and natural” for who, or what?

      I stopped eating meat almost 50 years ago for sustainability and environmental reasons: raising animals to eat uses far more resources (land, water, fossil fuels for fertilizers, pesticides, transportation, etc) and is far more environmentally degrading than is simply eating lower down on the food chain — eating plant foods.

      But I always worried that it wasn’t healthy — because everyone around me insisted that was true. Several years ago, I discovered this website, as well as others and other sources, and felt greatly relieved. I also stopped eating all animal products — dropping diary products and eggs — for the same reasons, and more: eating animal products contributes substantially to GHG emissions, is cruel to both the animals and the workers, is the main contributor to the development of antibiotic resistance (about 75% of the antibiotics used in the USA are fed to livestock) and are the sources of pandemics, past, present, and future.

      So, not eating animal products is a no-brainer for the survival of the human species. It’s also healthier over-all — if supplemented with B12. Because we don’t eat “natural” any more: our water is sanitized, killing bacteria that excrete B12 into the water as well as pathogens. Our food is cleaned of dirt, removing the bacteria and B12 from it as well.

      There are so many reasons to eat whole plant foods. I’ve no idea what you mean by a “healthy and natural diet,” but perhaps you can explain that to me. In light of what I’ve written. Because I think eating any other way is very unnatural, and dangerous, and deadly to boot.

    4. ‘f you have to take dietary supplements all the time, it goes against a healthy and natural diet.’

      That’s a total non sequitur.

      In any case believing that a natural diet (whatever that is) is automatically a healthy one is an example of the appeal to nature fallacy.

      Reading up on evolution and how it works can often be very enlightening.

    5. Patrick-Louis Vincent … The only supplement I take is B12 , and only because it is a soil born organism that our sanitation now destroys…along with the deadly pathogens it is intended for. Some people may still have issues even when supplementing, so that’s what this video is about.
      Eating meat is no panacea since even the soils the “lucky” few animals can still graze on are sterilized by cheap chemical fertilizers and pesticides instead of natural soil building practices. Anyway, 99% of “meat” now comes from factory farmed animals that no longer have access to nature at all, forced to stand in their own waste and fed unnatural grains to accelerate growth, which makes them deficient in the vitamins they need…so they are now fed the supplements you are averse to. There is little healthy or natural in eating enslaved creatures deprived of any quality of life who must be fed supplements, so what are our options?

      1. “Anyway, 99% of “meat” now comes from factory-farmed animals that no longer have access to nature at all” Yes. Nothing at all natural about it.

        While I was watching my step-mother, she was watching Shark Tank and there was an invention that mimicked sounds like “scared shrimp” and you could throw the device in the water and fish will jump onto your line.

        There were 2 times in my life when fish jumped onto my line as a young person and I caught fish after fish after fish one time and it was so much fun and there were no adults around telling me to throw them back in or I would have to clean them and eat them. Lesson learned.

        The other time was a survivalist camp, and we fed the fish all week and then the adults left and we had to find our own food and those fish came straight to us.

        Nope, nothing natural at all. I still feel bad about both of those. I didn’t really even like fish all that much, except fish sticks as a kid.

        I liked shrimp and lobster and tuna fish, but now, I have heard the scared shrimp sound.

        Laughing.

        I didn’t feel good about eating any animal that I had to kill and that thought impacted me even before I became allergic to meat.

    6. Patrick-Louis Vincent

      You wrote: “If you have to take dietary supplements all the time, it goes against a healthy and natural diet.”

      Yup.

      Pretty much a no-brainer.

      You mean – you mean the Emperor has no clothes?

      But everyone says the Emperor is beautifully dressed.

      They just can’t agree on what he’s wearing.

      It takes a lot of verbiage – and a lot of smoke and mirrors – and a lot of waving of hands – to fail to refute your clear statement.

      Bon appétit –

      Vivamus

  3. Got to love the science… nice video to reinforce the importance of taking supplemental B-12. Our species has certainly pushed the climate into unknown territory for our species… atmospheric CO2 above 400. Reminds me of the 2001 Bizarro cartoon with the doctor giving his “patient” his diagnosis and prognosis. His “patient” is the earth. The Doc says… “The bad news is you have a bad case of the humans, the good news is that they have about run their course and you will be feeling better soon.” Unfortunately we are not the only species with a severe case of the humans. Corporations, media and government are not in the business of keeping you informed about the best science. NF.org does this for nutrition so keep tuned in as the science keeps coming. Keep in mind the science is primarily based on “reductionistic” thinking. A nice introduction to the limitations of this approach is Colin Campbell’s second book, Whole. Just keep eating a Whole Plant Food diet with minimal Salt, Oil and Sugar (i.e. SOS) and you will lower your risk of significant chronic conditions. I first heard the term, SOS free, from Alan Goldhammer DC. He is the founder of TrueNorth Health Center in Santa Rosa. His recent 2 hour interview with Rich Roll is a nice overview of True North. Dr. Goldhammer did a one hour presentation to the Hawaiian Veg Society that is also a good overview… link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBACh6c4zNY.

    1. Dr. Don,

      How does Dr Campbells second book illustrate limitations on reductionist thinking? And by what deductions have you arrived at Gregers apparent reductions?

      And if it bears out, what would be the caution towards reductionism at all?

      1. I think he puts it’s limitations into perspective… such as an apple with about 10 mg of Vitamin C but about 150 mg of Vitamin C activity… is one example I remember. I like the science and think it is important in helping to understand complex systems however in dealing with complex systems you can provide inputs but the system just adapts to give you outputs… the idea that you can optimize a complex system seems to me to be the height of hubris. In using reductionistic science to better understand our complex systems we have to beware of “unanticipated” consequences. By basing our behaviors on the best science… we can eat healthy foods… most of the consequences are beneficial. However, given genetic variability we are all just “experiments” of one… hence the challenge for us all.

  4. My last B12 count was 1368. Seems to have doubled each year I have been tested. I didn’t think you could “overdose” on B12, but that’s pretty high! I was taking 2500 mcg daily, but I have cut down to taking B12 to 3x week and will get retested. Is a high B12 level dangerous?

    1. Sandi,

      Dr. Greger’s B-12 webinar videos will be coming soon. I can feel it.

      He says not to worry and that you will just pee it out.

      But watch the videos for yourself and make up your own mind.

    2. I remember seeing an article in JAMA that said people who supplement with B-12 die earlier. Some comments with it speculated that it was because the most common form of B-12 has cyano- bad stuff in it. I always take the methyl form

    1. Carolina,

      Please see Table 1: Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) for Vitamin B12

      https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamin%20B12-HealthProfessional/

      Best regards,

      Vivamus

      ——————

      Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA): Average daily level of intake sufficient to meet the nutrient requirements of nearly all (97%–98%) healthy individuals; often used to plan nutritionally adequate diets for individuals.

      Please note that neither the CDC nor the NIH nor the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics recommend doses higher than the RDA for healthy individuals.

  5. So what is the answer.? We’ll find out next is really irritating, where is next. Its never the next email.
    If this is yet another supplenent we have to take the conclusion eventually has to br its not a natural diet to be on, how can it be when you have to take so many supplenents. They didnt have supplements 50, 100 years ago, makes it seem sythetic and unnatural.
    My heart sinks when there is a new ‘do we need to take this or that, sick to the back teeth of it. If its just to get an email out everyday dont bother.

    1. Craig,

      100 years ago, the food was covered with dirt and fecal materials and the water wasn’t sanitized.

      You might be able to find some water outside and drink it but you risk the brain-eating amoeba but you may well get B12.

      1. Deb,

        100 years ago – September 2, 1920 – people in my family did not eat food covered with dirt and fecal materials.

        They were very civilized, than you.

        The chocolate set – the silverware – a quilt – all sorts of things – have been handed down through the generations.

        I think that they have a few generations left in them, still.

        I suspect that Sunday Dinner served at that time would beat out ‘most anything you are likely to see today.

        Even McDonald’s.

        Deb.

        All the best –

        Vivamus

        —————————-

        1903
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPaahfGbv8U

          1. Vivamus,

            I just looked up the history of indoor plumbing and when flush toilets became a thing, and the age of indoor plumbing in the USA is from 1929 through 1954.

            1929 through 1939 was the Great Depression and not long after that was war.

            The 1954 being listed as a date showed me that my family members telling stories about their neighbor who in 1955 still didn’t want electricity or indoor plumbing was because they just got theirs not long before the flood of 55 took the indoor plumbing away.

            1. Even things like soap had long periods of rationing with the wars and the Depression.

              I know that my family members talked about using neespapers for toilet paper.

              Washing machines started becoming popular pre-WW11, but stopped being manufactured until the 1950’s.

              That was the truth about all manufacturing and just about every product.

              1. I laughed when I was reading about toilet paper during that time. They said that in the 1930’s there was a brand of toilet paper advertised to not cause splinters.

                That might explain the newspapers.

        1. Vivamus,

          My relatives still didn’t have running water or electricity back then.

          Outhouse and garden into the 1940s and quite possibly 1950s or their next-door neighbor still didn’t have either of those as of the Flood of 1955.

            1. Most people got refrigerators in the 1940s.

              Hmmmm, 1920, people were still recovering from the pandemic and WW1.

              About to hit the Depression.

              I was very close to people born the generation before that and with people born in the 1920s.

              But Pandemic, Depression, Poverty, War, followed by living an easy life even if still poor would be the framework, so it becomes hard to stop time to the 1920s to figure out which part of the stories we would be at.

          1. What I realize is that The Pandemic, The Great Depression and both wars stopped most of the forward motion and then when the rationing ended mid-1950’s, that is when everything changed.

            Suddenly, washing machines, bathrooms, refrigerators, and rolls of toilet paper exploded on the scene again
            .
            But more people died during economic boom rather than during the Great Depression.

            https://www.pnas.org/content/106/41/17290

    2. The idea that Nature automatically works to give us the healthiest and longest lives possible is a comforting one. I don’t think that there is any evidence for it though.

      ‘They didnt have supplements 50, 100 years ago, makes it seem sythetic and unnatural.’

      They didn’t have the life expectancy or creature comforts we have today either. There are good reasons why a range of foods were fortified with supplements 50-100 years ago.
      https://www.nal.usda.gov/sites/default/files/fnic_uploads//45-55.pdf

  6. I think Dr. Greger is very knowledgeable, and I’ve bought one of his books. I prefer reading his transcripts because I have a difficult understanding him at times, I dislike his style and non-verbal mannerisms. He seems much too affected, so I pleased that I can read his presentation instead.

    1. ‘ I dislike his style and non-verbal mannerisms. He seems much too affected’

      I’m originally British and I much prefer restrained understatement myself.. However, Dr Greger’s cultural background appears to be Yiddish … possibly New York Yiddish a la ‘Seinfeld’. What might appear to be verbal histrionics to someone like me might well be considered subdued behaviour in a New York Yiddish community.

      Condemning the man because his style reflects the mores of a community other than one’s own is a little unkind. He’s providing a lot of important information free of charge here. Why not just focus on that instead of posting gratuitous personal comments?

      1. Wow! Just wow!
        Not every Brit is understated and not everyone brought up in a “yiddish” community is guilty of histrionics.

        1. Yiddish by design,

          I’m not sure why – but I couldn’t help but notice that you might be Yiddish.

          I am not familiar with Yiddish culture – but I am always happy to learn.

          A few questions – all well-intentioned, I assure you – if I overstep, I assure you it is unintentional – and I will attempt to accept your kind guidance in the matter with what grace I can muster:

          (1) How is Yiddish culture doing? Is it full and active and vibrant? OI it diminishing over time? Or is there equilibrium?

          One reads of occasional revivals. But also of a vast literature which fewer people access.

          You would seem to identify with all of this.

          What’s it like?

          (2) Since this bulletin board is associated with the concepts surrounding health and a healthy Whole Foods Plant Based Diet – how does all of that integrate with Yiddish traditions and with contemporary Yiddish life?

          Is there a traditional Yiddish diet? Trends? Is it healthy?

          What can you teach us?

          I end on an intercultural note:

          —————–

          A Rabbi, a Priest, and a Minister walk Into a Bar.

          Then a horse walks in.

          “Why the long face?” says the bartender.

          —————–

          Yiddish by design.

          L’chayim –

          Vivamus

          —————————–

          “. . . most of these jokes were created and popularized during the 1880-1920 period, when the great wave of European immigration hit the U.S. Catholics (from Ireland and Italy) and Jews (from Eastern Europe) were crammed into ethnic neighborhoods in major Eastern cities, thrown up against one another’s customs and traditions . . .”

  7. I’m one of those unlucky folks that has the MTHFR gene mutation and wondering if you have any advice on how diet might effect that as I struggle with my Vitamin B12 levels when I eat meat. Also, I take methylcobalamin as it seems to work better for me but notice you always advise to use the straight cobalamin form.

  8. (1) When possible, it is probably best to obtain nutrition from food rather than from a chemistry set.

    (2) Choline is widely available in both animal and plant foods.

    Very good vegetarian sources as follows:

    Collard Greens
    Brussels Sprouts
    Broccoli
    Swiss Chard
    Cauliflower
    Asparagus
    Spinach

    Good vegetarian sources as follows:

    Green Peas
    Cabbage
    Mushrooms, Shiitake
    Green Beans
    Bok Choy
    Mushrooms, Crimini
    Tomatoes

    Source (please scroll down several pages to the larger yellow/orange chart titled: “World’s Healthiest Foods ranked as quality sources of choline:”

    http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=50

    (3) The traditionally longest lived populations on this planet – and the details, of course differ with each culture – eat largely their own traditional whole foods plant-based diet with some animal flesh (typically 4-5 times per month). None of these cultures are exclusively Vegan. They are not suffering from supplement chemical pill deficiencies. They are not losing lifespan over menopause – the ladies typically live longer than the gentlemen.

    (4) People who eat a limited diet with known nutritional deficiencies who supplement those known deficiencies with chemicals might wish to consider the unknown deficiencies that they might also be lacking due to the limitations of their diet that science has not yet discovered. And science therefore does not yet know how to supplement chemically.

    These are the “known unknowns.”

    Or – they might consider turning to traditional diets of long-lived cultures – where the “science” has already long been worked out for them. Proof – they are the traditional long lived cultures. That is the completed scientific study in itself.

    Reductionist strategies – focusing on specific chemical nutrients – tend to fail in the face of incomplete scientific knowledge.

    And scientific knowledge is always incomplete.

    Yours in knowledge and in health –

    Vivamus

    1. Vivamus,

      Thanks for sharing the list.

      I am wondering if postmenopausal women just need extra food with choline or if it is still easy for older women to end up choline-deficient.

      1. If you take the time – and it takes time – and effort – to eat healthy foods including foods rich in choline – you will probably be just fine.

        Variety. Moderation. Healthy Whole Foods Plant Based Diet. Vegetables. Fruit. Whole grains (preferably unground). Oils – 10-20% or so is a good target for most people – avocado, nuts, seeds, minimal Extra Virgin Olive Oil. Low on salt and sugar. If your ideology can handle it – the science seems to point toward animal flesh 4-5 times a month or so for a longer healthier life.

        If you are spending your time and life energy on other things – like posting here and helping family and work and and and – and are largely living on beans and rice – and you are taking chemistry set pills “to cover yourself” – marketed as “Natural,” of course – you are just rolling the dice.

        And at some point those dice will come up snake eyes.

        Deb.

        Your roll –

        Vivamus

        1. Vivamus,

          I lived almost entirely on fruits and vegetables last year.

          Beans and rice are comforting to me and, honestly, there is a poor Blue Zone where beans, rice, and corn are almost they ever eat their whole lives because that is all they have.

          I had watched Dr. McDougall talking about what you can live on without becoming deficient and potatoes are one thing and beans and rice are another.

          1. Deb,

            You wrote: “Beans and rice are comforting to me and, honestly, there is a poor Blue Zone where beans, rice, and corn are almost they ever eat their whole lives because that is all they have.”

            Which one?

            I would like to expand my horizons.

            Thank you,

            Vivamus

    2. Natural/traditional and optimal aren’t the same thing.

      Also, the longest lived populations in the world today are found in wealthy countries where people seldom eat traditional diets.

      The lowest life expectancies are found in African countries where a large proportion of the population would be more likely to be eating traditional diets.
      https://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries

      Of course, that may have more to do with public health and medical care than diet but the point remains.

      I largely agree with you in principle but assuming that those traditional diets were ideal rather than simply better than common Western diets high in fat, sugar, animal foods and highly processed foods generally, is, well, just an assumption.

      From my perspective, holistic and reductionist approaches are complementary rather than antagonistic.

  9. I was curious and did a little more looking around, and came up with the following reference saying that in dialysis patients they studied, creatine did not lower homocysteine levels. I don’t know whether that has something to do with the kidney disease these people were suffering from, or from something related to dialysis itself, but thought you would be interested to see it if you haven’t already.

    And I’m interested to hear what you think about this.

    Dialysis – Transplantation| Volume 66, ISSUE 6, P2422-2428, December 01, 2004
    Creatine supplementation does not decrease total plasma homocysteine in chronic hemodialysis patients

    https://www.kidney-international.org/article/S0085-2538(15)50350-5/fulltext

    1. Bettina,

      That was very interesting. I noticed that it didn’t improve things AFTER adding in B12 and folate and betaine.

      The people tend to already be high cysteine, so maybe that is part of it?

      My first thought is diet. The people were high in B12 and high in cysteine and they responded best to folate.

      Well, vegans might already be so high in folate that more folate might not help but they respond to B12 and cysteine.

      The diet that the doctors put people with kidney problems on is what comes to me.

      There is a man on Forks Over Knives who says that he used to be on dialysis and a whole food plant-based diet helped him to get off of dialysis.

      If I can throw thoughts up to the WFPB community, please get someone official to verify that and make a study so that people with kidney problems can see it.

      Please.

      Plus, if it isn’t true, we don’t want it out there, but if it is true, we need information like that to be in journals.

      1. Yes please, more info also on chronic kidney disease in those who decades ago started as vegetarian, then became vegans and have for some time now been mostly WFPB. Would flaxseed oil (at what dosage) work better in this instance than flaxseeds because oil is presumably lower in potassium and phosphorus than seeds?

  10. My Homocysteine level was 14! During lockdown I was not consistent with my vitamins taking. Just lost track of time. We were stuck in another country so nothing was routine. Maybe I slacked on greens. Anyway, my doc prescribed a combo B vitamin with folate, but then I watched video on cancer risk of taking folate so I asked him about watching my diet and getting back on track with vitamins and he says that won’t work. Hmmm. I did not order the vitamin and I changed my B to the one you suggested. I eat beans everyday and get my greens now, but these videos have been enlightening. Why leave us hanging though? What creatine do I need to take and amount? A quick search online shows most supplements have huge doses. I get retested in 8 more weeks and I need to get this down. I’m 60. Been 95% plant based for at least four or five years. Scared to death now I’m going to have a stroke. Help!

    1. Jane,

      The Folate Trap can be caused with folate supplements. Dr. McDougall has talked about it. Our bodies cannot process too much of the supplement, so eating it is much, much, much better.

      Folate Trap can also be caused by being low in B12. Were you taking Methyl B12 and switched after the last test?

      I have had Methyl B12 fail twice. (I have tried each B12 and Methyl was the one that failed. I would not take Methyl B12 without combining it with a different type)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=292&v=x1DzCeo7QK8&feature=emb_logo

      Also, are you taking Omega 3?

      That also helps with Homocysteine.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24241095/

      Also, being low in Vitamin D can cause it to rise.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6245292/#:~:text=This%20finding%20supports%20the%20studies,in%20the%20etiology%20of%20ASD.

      There are things other than diet that can increase it. For instance, exposure to heavy metals, smoking, medications, etc.

      Too much coffee is one.

      Also, homocysteine levels increase directly after exercise unless you drink water so the timing of when you get tested might matter. (Exercise over time is associated with low homocysteine, so don’t stop exercising. Drink water and don’t get tested right after.)

      Pain increases homocysteine.

      Also, foods with choline, betaine, magnesium are ones to look up.

      Magnesium may help counter the negative impacts of high homocysteine levels is what I read. It didn’t say it lowered it. It said that having enough Magnesium might be protective against heart problems.

      1. Thanks Deb for the info. I was taking the methyl, but have switched now. I just ordered a new magnesium. I am concentrating on the beans and greens. I do exercise and I may not have had enough water after exercising the morning of my test. This was a wake up call to be more diligent. I know aging is changing some things and I want to be sure I stay on top of the things I need to do to stay healthy. Thanks.

        * Jane * *Jane Thompson Hasenmueller* http://www.radicalaging.com Join the RAgers (radical agers) discussion group on Facebook 1-575-937-3579

        *”It’s not the years in your life that count, it’s the life in your years.”* -Abe Lincoln

  11. Dr. Greger had a video on Broccoli and Autism. Autism has been reported to respond to B6 supplementation. Broccoli has B6 in it. So does spinach, Bananas, and sweet potaotes. All these foods are thought to help Autism, more than the B6 in them. Do you think Creatine supplementation can help with Autism? We don’t know, but there’s a study on right now. https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04498078 Maybe it is the B6 and other nutrients like B5 and K2 that help autism.

    1. Matthew,

      I LOVE that study.

      I used broccoli sprouts and it helped me with my brain problems and I was experiencing debilitating social anxiety and it worked amazingly well. I enjoyed every social event that I attended 10,000 times more for the whole year that I was doing it. I don’t really like broccoli sprouts and I am on hiatus from them but when I go back, I will be treating mine with PEMF to increase the sulforaphane and then maybe freeze them, so the 2 or 3 tablespoons per day can become much, much lower.

      If B-vitamins are helping, I wonder if autism is made worse by homocysteine?

      1. Hey Deb. Anxiety might be well treated with pumpkin seeds and the minerals in them like Phosphorus, Iron, and Magnesium. These minerals are thought to be helpful for anxiety in some small studies in pieces. However, pumpkin seeds have them in the right amount and with other more superior plant compounds in them. Did you know beans and walnuts have a lot of Molybdenium in them? There is a study that Molybdenium is good for the heart. These foods have other minerals, vitamins, and plant compounds in them that are good for the heart. Maybe Moldydenium is good for cancer too. Like Walnuts are. The Loma Linda University had a study that nuts and seeds, more so than any other protein group, extended life and meat shortened it. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180403111106.htm I don’t know why they didn’t find beans were healthy too. Walnuts have manganese, Molybdenium, Omega 3s, and biotin. Are each of these good for cancer? No, the walnut is the best for cancer with these minerals and its plant compounds. You have to use the whole food. Pumpkin seeds, walnuts, and lentils, rich in Molybdenium, Phosphorus, and Iron should be good for heart disease, cancer, and longevity. Scientists know statistically they are good for you. We should all eat more of these foods.

          1. Hi. Dr. Greger doesn’t recommend Apricot Kernels. He said the cyanide in them can be toxic. White Button Mushrooms and there larger cousin stuffed mushrooms fought cancer well. So did Soybeans. Soybeans have a lot of Phosphorus and Iron in them, Cancer fighters. Lentils also fought cancer with their phosphorus. Cranberries and Lemons, rich in protons, fought cancer well. Vitamin D3 fought cancer very well according to this site. People with more D3 lived longer when they had cancer. D3 helps regulate cancer and how your body uses DNA and Phosphorus in your body. People with cancer should consider eating soybeans and orange juice. I feel this way, my opinion, because there is a lot of Phosphorus in DNA and too little Phosphorus can cause DNA damage and Orange Juice and Phosphorus rich foods can repair missing DNA in strands. Your body knows your own DNA sequence with Phosphorus, D3, and DNA repair replenshing enzymes. Broccoli fought cancer well. As did other mustard family members, So did Garlic and other onion family members. Turmeric also fought cancer well. If you name at the nutrients in mushrooms, broccoli, garlic, yellow peppers, you can see some of the nutrients that fight cancer, working together with plant compounds. Not just the nutrient. This information has come from this website with the exception that DNA is rich in phosphorus and phosphorus is a cancer fighter. People who ate lentils and Soybeans had 50 percent less cancer. We need an intervention study of phosphorus rich foods to see if it can treat cancer. Dr. Greger said more research is needed on vitamin C and cancer. Yellow Peppers have a lot of Vitamin C in them and they might help with cancer. We need an interventional study on Yellow peppers and cancer.

            1. Dr. Greger’s favorite charity said to eat beans and whole grains with every meal. The Best beans for cancer are probably lentils, raw soaked, and soybeans, because they have the most phosphorus and molybdenum. I don’t know what the best anti cancer grains are but oatmeal and others fought cancer well, according to them, for cancer prevention and if we burrow in we might see the nutrients and associated compounds that are good for cancer. Walnuts reduced the risk of cancer 50 percent.

      1. Thanks, Marilyn,

        I will be looking at that. I was having the same symptoms as autistic people. Though as an older person. Broccoli sprouts really helped so much. But I was also working actively on lowering homocysteine and heavy metals and improving blood sugar.

        You have given me something to research.

        I have been thinking about you and I am hoping that you are well during this time. I know that COVID added a lot of stress.

        Two of my coworkers suddenly aren’t feeling well and they both have kids in school, so I am about to quarantine again.

        As timing would have it, I have been able to be there for my father with his surgery and hospitalization and for my cousin for his first days of surgery.

        I am so happy that my coworkers waited until this week.

        But this is the 3rd or 4th or 5th quarantine we have had to do and I am really sick of this process.

        All of my workers have such strong comorbidities. Things like pacemakers and diabetes and cancer and obesity and smoking.

        So far, the people closest to me have made it through.

        My cousin is going to be spending another month or two in rehab and last time he was in one was the week before COVID hit the news. He got out of there a few weeks before people started dying and 1/3 of the patients died where he was. The concept that he broke his hip now and already survived the surgery, I feel like God has blessed my family so much. Unbelievably grateful.

        1. My cousin was supposed to be in hospice but his sister and my other cousin said that after they said that, he became like the Energizer bunny and has been entertaining and reaching out to people and laughing and just enjoying everything more than ever.

          But it was cleaning up for visitors where he tripped and broke his hip. He didn’t feel pain, but he said that he couldn’t slide to the people lifter that I had bought him.

          I have decided that the stages of death left out joy as a stage of death.

    1. Laughing.

      I had said that a while back and I felt the two together were a little too much with that background, but now it has all grown on me and I see the shirt and tie and background and smile even more because of it.

      I know that it is silly things like those that people get off-put by and yet it has stolen my heart even more.

      It just took a few weeks.

  12. chickadee,

    Let’s see if you are wandering out there somewhere in the ether.

    This is a continuation of a prior set of posts from Monday/Tuesday.

    —————————————————————————————-

    Not medical advice. Merely informational. For medical advice, consult with your state licensed M.D.

    chickadee,

    Strolling through your post of September 2nd, 2020 at 10:19 am – thoughts arise:

    (1) Are you currently under the care a state licensed Board Certified M.D. Hematologist?

    It looks to me that that is where you need to be.

    If you are not – what can you do to head in that direction with the resources available to you?

    (2) You state: “I am also extremely sensitive to caffeine and cinnamon which cause palpitations, also.”

    Cinnamon? Palpitations? That’s a new one on me.

    Be still my erratically beating heart!

    I will remember.

    Thank you.

    (3) You wrote: “Pernicious anemia is now often referred to as megaloblastic anemia and my tests indicated a borderline high level of enlarged red blood cells.”

    “Pernicious anemia” – as I understand it – is a specific disease referring to autoimmune destruction of the parietal cells in the stomach. Parietal cells normally produce both gastric acid and intrinsic factor. The results of Pernicious Anemia are two-fold (a) cessation of normal digestion of B12 due to the loss of both gastric acid and intrinsic factor, and (b) iron deficiency anemia, as normal absorption of iron from food requires gastric acid.

    Many other nutrients require gastric acid for absorption, as well. The stomach is normally an acid cauldron – now it is not. This affects all digestion.

    “Megaloblastic anemia,” on the other hand, refers to a subset of the macrocytic anemias. This is an important sign of illness – but it is not a specific disease entity in itself. It can be caused by low B12 or by low folate for any reason – including just not ingesting much, which is common with Vegetarians. Megaloblastic anemia can occur with a fully functioning stomach without the destruction of parietal cells – i.e., without Pernicious Anemia.

    So – you are hearing the two terms being bandied about. Fair enough. The concepts may have merged in your mind – they may be closely related – but they have far different meanings.

    Consider – have you definitely been diagnosed with “Pernicious Anemia?” Or has someone thrown that label in your direction due to the megaloblastic anemia, and the label just kinda stuck?

    It sounds unlikely – but it happens.

    This could make all the difference.

    Make sure you are sure.

    (4) Whenever I hear low B12 – I want to know iron status. Whenever I hear low iron – I want to know B12 status.

    That is a bit of an oversimplification – but they do tend to run together as they are both associated with low gastric acid.

    (5) Pernicious anemia may not be so simple. I prefer it in the experienced hands of a Wise and Learned Hematologist.

    Really.

    Why is it not so simple?

    Well – high folate masks the megaloblastic anemia in someone who has a B12 deficiency – but the folate does not help the neurologic issues. Vegetarians tend to get in twice as much folate as the general population. I think you can see where that’s going. If you have a Physician who is not familiar with such matters, you may have a problem.

    I.e. – your “borderline high level of enlarged red blood cells” may actually be less useful as a diagnostic sign for following the anemia due to high Vegetarian folate and may be giving a false sense of security.

    (5) Following iron with Serum Ferritin is an art form in itself – Serum Ferritin does not stand alone – t’ain’t simple – and I prefer to see it’s interpretation in the hands of a Wise and Experienced Specialist who is sagely putting the whole puzzle together.

    (6) Plus – there’s the splenectomy to muddy the waters.

    (7) Note bene – most things that you read about nutrition may or may not apply to you. They are written for people who have intact – or reasonably diminished with age – gastric acid. Same for what you read about B12, iron, etc.

    All you can do is do the best you can.

    (8) If you can find a Pernicious Anemia support group – they may be a wonderful resource for you. It would be good for you to connect with the people who have been there, done that.

    I hear the Internet is a pretty big place . . .

    (9) More? I’ll wait for more information.

    (10) Summing up:

    Pernicious anemia + Vegetarianism + Splenectony + problems taking iron = Board Certified M.D. Hematologist + Pernicious Anemia Support Group.

    Not as simple as Einstein – but the math looks pretty clear to me.

    chickadee.

    Interesting.

    But sometimes – sometimes you don’t want to be interesting.

    All the best –

    Vivamus

  13. In the process of making creatine, your body produces homocysteine as a waste product.

    Really?? That is all you have to say on the subject?

    The REST of the story will save people worry about KIDNEY FAILURE

    To store the creatine you ingest, and the creatine your liver produces, your skeletal muscles, your brain, and other tissues transform it into phosphocreatine. And when they use their stores to recycle adenosine triphosphate (ATP), often called life’s energy currency, one of the byproducts is creatinine.

    Your kidneys excrete this creatinine unchanged. If their function declines, so does creatinine clearance. Creatinine clearance can be estimated from regular metabolic blood tests or measured through a combination of blood test and 24-hour urine sample.

    Creatinine blood levels are the most commonly used indicator of kidney function: it is assumed that if your levels are high, your kidneys haven’t done their job. IF YOU SUPPLEMENT, BE SURE TO TELL YOUR DOCTOR.

    1. This is a video about homocysteine RB. Creatine is discussed in that context. It is hardy appropriate to become indignant because it doesn’t include a total ,summary of all issues pertaining to creatine.

      So many of your posts make me wonder if you suffer from painful haemorrhoids. I am at a loss otherwise to understand why so many of your posts appear bad-tempered. This is definitely one of those posts.

    2. Barb, I read your study reference.

      Also, I saw a study showing that Choline is apparently showing up as being deficient in up to 90% of the population.

      My question is: why?

      Beef, chix, fish eggs all consumed by the tons here.

      Beef is said to have 360 mg per 3 oz!
      (likely a beef industry infographic, but theres this: https://geneticgenie.org/wp-content/plugins/phastpress/phast.php/https-3A-2F-2Fgeneticgenie.org-2Fwp-2Dcontent-2Fuploads-2F2013-2F10-2Fchart.gif/service=images/width=534/height=420/cacheMarker=1574990453-2D18071/token=04c8e0a4bd67594c/__p__.gif )

      What gives here?

      Also, I discovered that, roughly speaking, a plate with a nice helping of broccolli, a cup of quinoa, a cup of tofu, some seaweed flakes, is enough to get a woman close to halfway to her RDA, so given a typical wfpb , one should easily get enough, week in and week out.

      Lastly, does anyone here think [not rhetorical] that Dr. G hasn’t taken into account and completely considered each and every nutrient needed by the human body in his recommendations on the app: Daily Dozen/21 tweaks app?

    3. Reality Bites, no that is not all he said on the subject. Please read the transcript as your volume might have lowered during the video.

  14. I was eating a mostly whole plant foods diet with regular B12 supplements and still had high homocysteine (11 to 14 range). My nutritionist had me get tested for a particular MTHFR gene that she suspected was malfunctioning, and it was. The defect meant that I wasn’t metabolizing much of the folate from all the leafy greens I ate. She prescribed L-5 MTHRF supplement; it’s the broken down components of folate so the body can access it. Worked like a charm! She said that genetic issue is fairly common, so worth checking out!

    1. Plant Powered,

      Nope, it does not override the warning from that video that creatine supplements might contain heavy metals.

      Consumer Labs might give a list of ones that are safer.

      I also feel like Dr. Greger might have said that if you supplement, the body slows its production of it.

      Where did he say that? Hmmmm? Maybe Bite-Sized vegan or another interview.

      I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that if you use creatine, it would be short-term or your body might slow things down to not have too much.

        1. Plant Powered, the take away from the transcript is that the jury is out on supplementation with creatine until the next video:

          “One might predict that if you started taking creatine supplements, the level of homocysteine might go down since you’re not going to have to be making so much of it from scratch, producing homocysteine as a by-product, but you don’t know, until you put it to the test, which we’ll cover, next.”

  15. I became a vegan for the animals and planet but desperately needed creatine because health issues were threatening my life.

    But I won’t buy cheap creatine that is derived from big slaughterhouse cruelty factory, who knows how these poor creatures were treated or what horror they were feed. I will never use those products again.

    Rather, I will now enjoy a well-derived meat product on occasion. I am blessed to like in a small city surrounded by the most beautiful organic farms in the world, where the animals are loved and culled peacefully.

    Occasionally I have a natural Waterbuffalo smoked kielbasa, yes we have a local farm that raises them, and occasional chicken livers. Also, I eat duck eggs as they are naturally free foragers, locally, providing rich nutrition and a lack of cruelty. I believe this is actually important to the health and well-being of the consumer.

    I appreciated the research on this channel, but I see there is a balance to everything.

    There is a seasonal quality to how the food issues from the Earth and all things are available in manners that do not include cruelty. But they will not be fast and cheap.

    What good is it to be a vegan when you eat products without consideration of their source? Greens and beans, at large, are produced in destructive ways, using slave labor.

  16. Susan,

    You wrote: “Greens and beans, at large, are produced in destructive ways, using slave labor.”

    That’s a new one on me.

    I’m all for some animal products in the diet to the extent needed – but I never felt the need to avoid plants for ethical reasons.

    Could you please elaborate?

    Where do I buy one of these slaves to work the garden?

    Do they do windows?

    Housing? Feeding? Medical care?

    Or are they disposable?

    Next!

    OSHA regulations?

    Could I just rent one from Manpower?

    I thought there were some sort of laws about slavery. But I am so often wrong.

    I look forward to learning more.

    Susan.

    All the best –

    Vivamus

  17. Twice, Dr. Gregor says the type of B-12 that is the ‘most stable’, but I can’t understand him well enough to even guess at the spelling. Any help would be appreciated. (My bottle of B-12 says, ‘methylcobalamin’, which is definitely not what he said.)

  18. I’ve been vegetarian since the age of 12 and vegan for the last 5 years both for mainly ethical reasons. I have been following Dr for some time now. However, these past series are starting to shatter my idea of the vegan diet as being very healthy. I’m a bit worried because I’m raising my baby vegan. I’m concerned that I suddenly have to take tons of supplements to be healthy. Is there another solution? X

    1. Yes,

      (1) Consult with an M.D. Pediatrician – preferably one who is experienced with dealing with Vegetarians. Inform him of the Vegetarianism. Request that he pay particular attention to B12 and to iron.

      (2) Consult with an R.D Dietitian – preferably one who is experienced with dealing with Vegetarians.

      (3) Look into the Blue Zones: the five longest lived cultures on the planet.

      Long life accompanied by low morbidity. I.e. – their diets work.

      Different cultures – different Whole Food Plant Based diets. These diets typically include animal flesh of some sort 4-5 times a month.

      (4) Make sure you and your child are getting the RDA of B12. No more is generally needed. Please see Table 1: Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDAs) for Vitamin B12

      https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamin%20B12-HealthProfessional/

      (5) Consider getting Vitamin D from sunlight.

      (6) Ignore the pill poppers. And the megavitamin people. And the supplement people. No matter what their justifications.

      They always have great logical arguments. Seductive arguments, even.

      And they are always – always – in the long run – proven wrong.

      Their wisdom should be written on the wind – and running water.

      (apologies to Catullus)

      (7) Avoid getting excited by the reductionists who are focused on the chemical du jour.

      That approach is not sustainable.

      Don’t think “I should get carrots for Vitamin A, oranges for Vitamin C, nuts and whole grains for vitamin E.”

      Instead think: I should get carrots and oranges and nuts and whole grains.

      Traditional long lived populations do not worry one whit about their choline intake.

      Neither should you.

      They just eat a traditional healthy diet – and everything takes care of itself.

      (8) Note – there are no predominant Vegan long lived cultures.

      That should tell you something right there.

      (9) Health should always take precedence over ideology.

      If your ideology is in conflict with your health – it may be wise to reconsider your ideology.

      Or to openly accept the consequences of that ideology.

      But not to live in denial.

      Especially when there are others involved who cannot make these decisions for themselves.

      Vitany.

      All the best –

      Vivamus

      ——————

      Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA): Average daily level of intake sufficient to meet the nutrient requirements of nearly all (97%–98%) healthy individuals; often used to plan nutritionally adequate diets for individuals.

      Please note that neither the CDC nor the NIH nor the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics recommend doses higher than the RDA for healthy individuals.

    2. Vivamus (below) provided some helpful advice. As a new mom it’s understandable that you’re worried and want to make sure you can raise your baby vegan without concerns that your baby isn’t getting all s/he needs.Dr. Greger’s latest video suggested creatine ONLY for those rare adults whose homocysteine is high despite the recommended B12. It is not an issue involving your baby, nor additional supplements. The solution is a varied whole food diet. If you need further advice about feeding your child in the healthiest way possible, I’m going to include some information compiled by several of us NFO volunteers which will make you feel more confident in the healthy start you’re giving your baby:
      “You are on the right track and doing what is best for your child. I have some resources that should help you get started on being able to bolster your case. First, note the following quote from a position paper from the ADA: “”It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.””
      .
      Also note this quote from Dr. Greger’s book, How Not To Die, page 411-412: “”Vitamin B12-fortified plant-based diets can offer health benefits for all stages of the life cycle. [When] Dr. Benjamin Spock, the most esteemed pediatrician of all time,…died at ninety-four, he advocated children be raised on a plant-based diet with no exposure to meat or dairy products. … ‘Children who grow up getting their nutrition from plant foods have a tremendous health advantage and are much less likely to develop health problems as the years go by.’ “”

      PCRM is the Physician’s Committee For Responsible Medicine, headed up by Dr. Barnard. Dr. Greger has mentioned Dr. Barnard and PCRM favorably in posts and his book. Here are two articles from PCRM that I think contains the type of information you are looking for: http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/vegetarian-diets-for-children-right-from-the-start and http://www.pcrm.org/pdfs/health/info_advchild.pdf
      .
      I’ll also refer you to a site called the Vegetarian Resource Group, VRG. Their articles are usually very well researched and Dr. Greger has mentioned VRG favorably at least once. VRG has a whole section on kids on their website. Here’s the main page. Scroll down to the Nutrition section: http://www.vrg.org/family/kidsindex.htm This is one of my favorite articles on that page. which starts with babies and goes on up: http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/kids.php
      .
      Finally, Becoming Vegan, Express Edition is a great over-all reference book for the whole family. It also has an entire chapter on children and what to feed. It also includes an age-based chart where you can get ideas on how much of each of the main nutrients your child needs at various ages. T

  19. Why not supplement with melatonin, because biosynthesis of melatonin generates homocysteine as a byproduct? Melatonin, like creatine, has other benefits but, unlike creatine, without the controversies. The body probably makes much less creatine than it does melatonin though.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This