The Role of Dairy & Gluten in Canker Sores

The Role of Dairy & Gluten in Canker Sores
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Does excluding dairy products, food additives, and gluten-containing grains from one’s diet help those with recurring canker sores (aphthous ulcers)?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Recurring canker sores are the single “most common inflammatory and ulcerative condition” of the mouth, affecting as many as one in five people. Ouch.

Sometimes, it can be a “sign of celiac disease,” the relatively rare autoimmune condition triggered by the wheat protein gluten. But what about those without celiac disease? Well, 37 years ago, there was a report of a small group of recurrent canker sore patients that got better after removing gluten from their diet—despite the fact that they didn’t have any signs of celiac disease. Now, without a control group, you don’t know if they would’ve just gotten better on their own. But it was interesting enough to spark further study.

Given that small series of patients, they decided to try out a gluten-free diet on 20 folks with recurring canker sores—again explicitly excluding those known to have celiac disease. And, five of the 20 seemed to get better, and, critically, then they got worse when they were challenged with gluten. So, even though there was no control group, in the few that got better, the ulcers came back when gluten was added back to their diet.

Now, this was not just some random group of canker-sore sufferers; the reason they had gotten intestinal biopsies to rule out celiac was because they had some other abnormalities; so, you can’t extrapolate from this study saying one in five sufferers may benefit from cutting out gluten, though, at least it appears in some people to help. Though, it would have been better if it was a blinded challenge. If you cut out gluten, or any food, and just coincidentally happen to feel better, you might convince yourself that gluten was the culprit. And so, then, when the researcher gives you a piece of bread, maybe just the stress at the thought of your ulcers coming back may actually help trigger the ulcers coming back.

That’s why, ideally, you do blinded gluten challenges, to see if gluten really is to blame. For example, if you take people who don’t have celiac or a wheat allergy, but nevertheless claim to be sensitive to gluten, you can test to see if they’re fooling themselves by randomly assigning them to take a capsule with gluten inside, or just a placebo made out of rice starch. So, they’re on a gluten-free diet, and then, you give them this pill—which, in the case of the gluten one, is equivalent to like two pieces of bread, and you see if they get worse. And then, just the thought of taking something that might be gluten: their symptoms shot up. And, this was them just taking a placebo rice-starch pill. But the reason we know this non-celiac gluten sensitivity exists is that the actual gluten pill made them feel even worse. And, that’s specifically what happened in the case of canker sores. Those who felt they were gluten-sensitive did actually get more canker sores, exposed to real, as opposed to fake, gluten.

Where did they even get the idea in the original study to try cutting out gluten? Well, back in the 60s, it was reported that the blood of patients with bad canker sores reacted to certain food proteins, like gluten, but had an even stronger reaction to the milk-protein casein. This has since been more formally tested. Fifty patients with recurring canker sores were compared to fifty healthy people for their levels of anti-gluten antibodies—gliadin is a type of gluten protein—and anti-cow’s milk protein antibodies. And, the canker sore sufferers were no more likely to react to the gluten, but the levels of anti-milk proteins “were significantly higher.” In fact, the majority reacted to the cow’s milk. “These results indicate [a] strong association between high levels of” anti-milk proteins in the blood with recurring canker sores.

But what we care about is do people actually get better or not when they cut out the milk? Well, upon hearing their results, three of the patients spontaneously decided to cut all dairy products from their diet for a few months to see what happened. And, it seemed to help. No reappearance of the sores in the first patient. Same with the second—until they had some cow’s milk ice cream. And, in the third, the ulcers seemed to come with less frequency. But, those were just some observations, not an actual study.

You see the same thing with certain food additives. Folks with recurring canker sores may react more to certain food dyes. And so, if you try people on a gluten-free diet, or a dairy-free diet, or a diet free of certain food additives, you’ll get a few cases of people responding—in this case, six out of 11; some better on the gluten-free, others better on the milk-free, others on the additive-free. But the responses were pretty dramatic—seen within a week. So, seems it might be worth giving these exclusion diets a try, to see if there’s a huge improvement.

Can’t you just get an allergy test or something? Apparently not. For example, this poor woman, who suffered from recurring canker sores since she was two years old: “multiple painful lesions in her mouth…almost constantly.” They asked her about milk, and she said she rarely drank it, because it appeared to trigger more almost immediately. So, they decided to look into it. They tested her for sensitivities to dairy, both so-called “prick and patch” allergy tests, and they were both negative. But hey, if she felt worse on dairy, might as well try cutting out all dairy products completely. And, for the first time in her life, the ulcers went away, and stayed away—unless she accidentally had some milk product.

So, even if people test negative, it may be worth a try to cut out all dairy, and see what happens. Look, we know cow’s milk may play a role in other allergic and autoimmune-type diseases, and there are these reports, going back decades, suggesting at least there’s a subgroup of canker-sore patients for which dairy is a causative factor. “However, awareness of this association is [rare] among both patients and healthcare providers.”

And, improvement can happen rapidly. A boy and a girl, both suffering for years with frequent multiple ulcerations, then apparently cured within two weeks. We don’t know how often it works; we just know it does—sometimes. So, as this 2017 paper in the Journal of the American Dental Association suggests, why not give a cow’s milk-protein elimination trial a try, “particularly before [the] use of medications with potential side effects.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Markus Spiske via Stock Snap. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Recurring canker sores are the single “most common inflammatory and ulcerative condition” of the mouth, affecting as many as one in five people. Ouch.

Sometimes, it can be a “sign of celiac disease,” the relatively rare autoimmune condition triggered by the wheat protein gluten. But what about those without celiac disease? Well, 37 years ago, there was a report of a small group of recurrent canker sore patients that got better after removing gluten from their diet—despite the fact that they didn’t have any signs of celiac disease. Now, without a control group, you don’t know if they would’ve just gotten better on their own. But it was interesting enough to spark further study.

Given that small series of patients, they decided to try out a gluten-free diet on 20 folks with recurring canker sores—again explicitly excluding those known to have celiac disease. And, five of the 20 seemed to get better, and, critically, then they got worse when they were challenged with gluten. So, even though there was no control group, in the few that got better, the ulcers came back when gluten was added back to their diet.

Now, this was not just some random group of canker-sore sufferers; the reason they had gotten intestinal biopsies to rule out celiac was because they had some other abnormalities; so, you can’t extrapolate from this study saying one in five sufferers may benefit from cutting out gluten, though, at least it appears in some people to help. Though, it would have been better if it was a blinded challenge. If you cut out gluten, or any food, and just coincidentally happen to feel better, you might convince yourself that gluten was the culprit. And so, then, when the researcher gives you a piece of bread, maybe just the stress at the thought of your ulcers coming back may actually help trigger the ulcers coming back.

That’s why, ideally, you do blinded gluten challenges, to see if gluten really is to blame. For example, if you take people who don’t have celiac or a wheat allergy, but nevertheless claim to be sensitive to gluten, you can test to see if they’re fooling themselves by randomly assigning them to take a capsule with gluten inside, or just a placebo made out of rice starch. So, they’re on a gluten-free diet, and then, you give them this pill—which, in the case of the gluten one, is equivalent to like two pieces of bread, and you see if they get worse. And then, just the thought of taking something that might be gluten: their symptoms shot up. And, this was them just taking a placebo rice-starch pill. But the reason we know this non-celiac gluten sensitivity exists is that the actual gluten pill made them feel even worse. And, that’s specifically what happened in the case of canker sores. Those who felt they were gluten-sensitive did actually get more canker sores, exposed to real, as opposed to fake, gluten.

Where did they even get the idea in the original study to try cutting out gluten? Well, back in the 60s, it was reported that the blood of patients with bad canker sores reacted to certain food proteins, like gluten, but had an even stronger reaction to the milk-protein casein. This has since been more formally tested. Fifty patients with recurring canker sores were compared to fifty healthy people for their levels of anti-gluten antibodies—gliadin is a type of gluten protein—and anti-cow’s milk protein antibodies. And, the canker sore sufferers were no more likely to react to the gluten, but the levels of anti-milk proteins “were significantly higher.” In fact, the majority reacted to the cow’s milk. “These results indicate [a] strong association between high levels of” anti-milk proteins in the blood with recurring canker sores.

But what we care about is do people actually get better or not when they cut out the milk? Well, upon hearing their results, three of the patients spontaneously decided to cut all dairy products from their diet for a few months to see what happened. And, it seemed to help. No reappearance of the sores in the first patient. Same with the second—until they had some cow’s milk ice cream. And, in the third, the ulcers seemed to come with less frequency. But, those were just some observations, not an actual study.

You see the same thing with certain food additives. Folks with recurring canker sores may react more to certain food dyes. And so, if you try people on a gluten-free diet, or a dairy-free diet, or a diet free of certain food additives, you’ll get a few cases of people responding—in this case, six out of 11; some better on the gluten-free, others better on the milk-free, others on the additive-free. But the responses were pretty dramatic—seen within a week. So, seems it might be worth giving these exclusion diets a try, to see if there’s a huge improvement.

Can’t you just get an allergy test or something? Apparently not. For example, this poor woman, who suffered from recurring canker sores since she was two years old: “multiple painful lesions in her mouth…almost constantly.” They asked her about milk, and she said she rarely drank it, because it appeared to trigger more almost immediately. So, they decided to look into it. They tested her for sensitivities to dairy, both so-called “prick and patch” allergy tests, and they were both negative. But hey, if she felt worse on dairy, might as well try cutting out all dairy products completely. And, for the first time in her life, the ulcers went away, and stayed away—unless she accidentally had some milk product.

So, even if people test negative, it may be worth a try to cut out all dairy, and see what happens. Look, we know cow’s milk may play a role in other allergic and autoimmune-type diseases, and there are these reports, going back decades, suggesting at least there’s a subgroup of canker-sore patients for which dairy is a causative factor. “However, awareness of this association is [rare] among both patients and healthcare providers.”

And, improvement can happen rapidly. A boy and a girl, both suffering for years with frequent multiple ulcerations, then apparently cured within two weeks. We don’t know how often it works; we just know it does—sometimes. So, as this 2017 paper in the Journal of the American Dental Association suggests, why not give a cow’s milk-protein elimination trial a try, “particularly before [the] use of medications with potential side effects.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Markus Spiske via Stock Snap. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Doctor's Note

Other ways to help prevent future outbreaks can include avoiding foaming agents in toothpaste (see Is Sodium Lauryl Sulfate Safe? and Is CAPB in SLS-Free Toothpaste Any Better?).

And in terms of treatment, see Topical Honey for Canker Sores and Best Supplement for Canker Sores.

I’ve also explored the role of gluten and dairy-free diets in autism:

Should everyone avoid gluten? Check out:

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

136 responses to “The Role of Dairy & Gluten in Canker Sores

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    1. wow, I had no idea of this connection. I have suffered with canker sores my whole life. While I have been mostly a vegetarian, I had milk as a kid growing up and never thought I had an issue with gluten. Now I am 2 months in on a whole food plant based diet. I have a canker sore brewing, and I am now thinking its the gluten (which I have been playing around with in terms of elimination). I am excited to make this change to my diet and see if it goes away. Here all this time I thought it was a virus…again WOW!

  1. This video is such an excellent example of why nutrition should be required study for first line health care providers like physicians, nurses, PA’s, and others. It is clearly more advantageous to the patient to recommend a dietary solution before a drug solution to a physiological problem. And this video is also why this NutrionFacts.org site is so important and necessary today. Not everyone has difficulty with cows milk, but for those that do, this site is extremely helpful and supportive. For those who would like to learn more about the possible effects that cows milk may have on your health, consider reading the book “Whitewash: The Disturbing Truth About Cows Milk and Your Health” by Joseph Keon and see if you find yourself reflected in those pages. Dr. Spock, known also as America’s Pediatrician, also recommended in his last book (1998 I believe) that children abstain from dairy and feel free to consume a WFPB diet. Fifty years ago I stopped consuming dairy because of the severe intestinal disturbances I incurred when ingesting it. I was warned by others that my health would suffer. I’m very pleased to report that at 65 years I am completely healthy, take no medications, and have no osteopenia or osteoporosis. I, also, suffered from canker sores as a child but did not put that situation together with milk until today. Thanks to Dr. Greger for the enlightenment.

    1. In my early 20s I started having canker sores occasionally at the same place on my lip. I read that taking lysine (amino acid) would help….and have been taking 500 mg / day for a good while….with no sores.

      Read recently that oral herpes is associated with alzheimers…so now I take 2 x 500 mg / day.

      https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/cold-sore-virus-increase-alzheimers-risk-102014.html

      A cold sore is about as annoying as minor annoyances get. But it may be more than annoying. A new study finds that infection wih the herpes simplex virus increase the risk of Alzheimer’s disease.

      “Our results clearly show that there is a link between infections of herpes simplex virus and the risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease. This also means that we have new opportunities to develop treatment forms to stop the disease,” said Hugo Lövheim, a professor at Umeå University and one of the authors of the study, published in the journal Alzheimer’s & Dementia.

      In recent years research has increasingly indicated that there is a possible connection between infection with a common herpes virus, herpes simplex virus type 1, and Alzheimer’s disease. A majority of the population carries this virus.

      After the first infection the body carries the virus throughout your lifetime, and it can reactivate now and then and cause mouth ulcers. The hypothesis which links the herpes virus and Alzheimer’s disease is based on the notion that a weakened immune system among the elderly creates opportunities for the virus to spread further to the brain, starting the process which results in Alzheimer’s disease.

      Lövheim and a colleague, Fredrik Elgh, have confirmed this link in two large epidemiological studies.

      In one study, the researchers show that a reactivated herpes infection doubled the risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease. This study had 3,432 participants who were followed for 11.3 years on average.

      In another study, 360 people with Alzheimer’s disease were examined and compared to 360 others who had not developed dementia. The samples were taken on average 9.6 years before diagnosis. This study showed an approximately doubled risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease if the person was a carrier of the herpes virus.

      “Something which makes this hypothesis very interesting is that now herpes infection can in principle be treated with antiviral agents. Therefore within a few years we hope to be able to start studies in which we will also try treating patients to prevent the development of Alzheimer’s disease,” said Lövheim.

      1. After I started a WFPB diet more than five years ago, my canker sores no longer appeared. This leads me even more to wonder whether a WFPB diet can help avoid Alzheimer’s.

      2. http://www.greenmedinfo.com/article/increasing-lysine-arginine-ratio-diet-or-through-supplementation-may-inhibit-hsv-1-infection

        There is a growing body of evidence that implicates the herpes simplex type 1 virus (HSV-1) in the development of Alzheimer’s dementia (AD). HSV-1 has been found to be present in the cerebrum of the great majority of older adults, and in many of the same areas of the brain that are affected by AD. When active, the virus may contribute to the formation of the neuro-fibrillary tangles and amyloid plaques characteristic of AD. Like AD, HSV-1 encephalitis may cause long term memory loss. HSV-1 replication is suppressed in lysine-rich/arginine – poor environments, and population studies suggest that diets high in lysine and low in arginine may be associated with lower rates of AD. There are no prospective studies of the efficacy of lysine supplementation to prevent or reduce the incidence of AD. Supplementation with adequate doses of lysine could prevent the development of AD.

  2. Might the avoidance of gluten have some connection with the recurrence–or non-recurrence–of herpes symptoms, since the viruses are similar?

    1. Al D – Wondering if you could clarify your question just a bit. Gluten isn’t a virus so I’m trying to understand what you are comparing that is similar to the herpes virus?

      1. Sorry, thought I was being clear. The cold sore virus is similar to the one for herpes, and perhaps the avoidance of gluten would lessen the chance of herpes sores.

        1. I thought these canker sores were just another name for cold sores- same virus or rather family of viruses. The received wisdom seems to be that it is the lysine-arginine ratio that is most important in triggering herpes outbreaks, lysine suppresses the virus, arginine stimulates it… no mention or dairy-wheat issues. Indeed dairy is often cited as helpful because of the high lysine low arginine…..

          1. Yes, a cold sore is the result of the herpes simplex virus.

            Cankers or canker sores are the old term for mouth ulcers. Or do you not use the term “mouth ulcer” in the US?

            This link shows the conventional (UK) advice regarding mouth ulcers: It recognises that they can be the result of a food intolerance/allergy but doesn’t go into any detail on this.

            https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/mouth-ulcers/

            1. Hi, Tom. I am amazed that mouth ulcers are such an issue in the US. I wonder if it is the degraded animal products, even worse than over here? Because in the UK it is just not a ‘thing’ that causes any great concern although look on any UK site at cold sore comments and you would think we were a nation given to outbreaks of scabrous sores all over the place…….. It is especially an issue for vegans who see to think they have to dose up on lysine to keep the little devils at bay.

              1. Hi Gillian Yes, I’d always thought that mouth ulcers were pretty rare. I’ve never met anyone who said that they had had them. But judging by the comments here, they seem common. As you say, it could be the difference between the US and UK diets. Mouth ulcers don’t appear to be a “thing” in Australia either.

                Or it could just be confusion between cold sores and mouth ulcers. Strictly speaking, I suppose, both are technically cankers. So, the different US terminology might account for the apparent difference in reported rates.

                I used to get cold sores several times every year even after I became a strict vegetarian. However, now I make sure to eat black beans, lentils, tempeh etc two or three times a week and it’s no longer a problem..

                Perhaps it’s not surprising that cold sores are a big issue in the UK. People are eating a lot more chicken, pork and dairy than was the case decades ago. They are all foods high in arginine. Turkey is particularly high in arginine I understand.

  3. Hi Ruth and all –

    Check out this “Should you go Vegan?” cover of the January 27, 2018 issue of the New Scientist:
    https://d1o50x50snmhul.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/23153332/nsc_20180127.jpg

    New Scientist, a British based science news magazine, specializes in hard nosed critical appraisals on the latest science of cutting edge topics.

    At the end of the article, the author, Chelsea Whyte, New Scientist’s physics news editor, wrote:

    “All of this helped me make up my mind. By the time you are reading this, I will have eaten all of the non-vegan food I have left at home, and will once more be following a vegan diet.”

    That New Scientist would feature this article, and publish a positive rather than critical evaluation of veganism really surprised me, and shows that for scientists at least, given enough research and time, even entrenched attitudes can change.

  4. Alef1 – I tried the link but could only access the cover of the magazine. Did you have a link to the article perhaps? I’d love to read it. Thx!

    1. As the article just came out, except for subscribers they have only released a teaser:

      https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23731623-000-living-on-the-veg-should-we-all-go-vegan/

      My local public library has a subscription, so I read the article in a hard copy.

      The teaser does include this interesting and rather encouraging statistic:

      “Vegans made up just 1 per cent of the US population in 2014. Three years on, an additional 16 million Americans – 5 per cent of the nation – had joined the club. ” Wow – if these stats seem true, this means a five fold increase in four years! And that many Americans have finally decided to take health care into their own hands, rather than relying on the government or the medical industry that have repeatedly failed to provide anything deserving the name.

      1. alef1 – Thanks! The information you provided is very interesting. I, too, have seen an uptick in those going plant-based and seeing improvements in their health. I am among them. Pre-diabetes gone, extra 30 lbs gone, gout gone, osteopenia reversed (which I did not expect to have happen), blood pressure is now in excellent range (110/65), and more energy than I could ever have expected. And, at 65, no medications from the drug industry. I couldn’t be happier, personally. Not to mention the discovery of how much fun interesting food can be once that door was opened. I will never go back.
        But lastly, and more important to my heart, is the fact that now I can look into the eyes of an animal and know that I am no longer supporting the terrible tortured lives of sentient beings. I didn’t start out with this motivation in mind – it was my health. But this is just a meaningful result to me as my own good-and-improved health. And once I learned that I could have perfectly good health without eating animals it was just simply a no-brainer for me.

        Thanks alef1 for sharing what you could of that article – very interesting. In case you don’t know, Kaiser Permanente, the largest HMO in the western USA, has adopted WFPB eating as the best diet for overall health. It has taken a formal position on this and distributes information to its members on WFPB eating as well as places to get information. This site is listed amongst its referrals in their literature.

        1. Hi Ruth –

          Impressive results! Congratulations.

          But your results, as well as others (like the participants in Esselytyn’s and Ornish’s studies) with the WFPB diet makes me wonder what our bodies could do if people ate a 100% optimal diet. Of course, in practice this can prove rather tricky, as many people don’t have a clue to what their bodies need to heal, and have become sadly out of touch with respect to what they’ve done that made them sick.

          Now while a WFPB diet clearly seems orders of magnitude healthier for most people than SAD, in today’s world even formerly super healthy plant based whole foods have become heavily contaminated – with arsenic in rice as a particularly notable example. And for vegans who still eat processed foods, add adulteration (lead in turmeric powder!) and misleading and false labeling to the mix. Caveat Emptor.

          Now I personally believe that our bodies can heal almost anything, providing we give them what they need to heal, and that we STOP doing what makes them sick. Imagine what our bodies might accomplish with individualized diets optimized for nutrients, beneficial phytochemicals, and positive epigenetic effects, AND with an absence of toxins such as heavy metals, pesticides, etc.! Now while NFO has gone a long way in providing up-to-date information in a format most people can understand, so that they can make better healthcare decisions, research still has a long way to go.

        2. Wow Ruth, Excellent! Congratulations on being in your mid-60’s with no medicines!

          That is something to celebrate!

          I am laughing, because I never thought of myself as money oriented, but not wanting to spend any money on medicine and not wanting to go to doctors and argue with doctors are the “motivators” which worked for me better than “fear of death and disease.”

          Two years ago, my friends started getting the Diabetes diagnoses and they are spending thousands on insulin and other new meds and testing supplies and they were gaining weight and having their blood sugar be too high for the other surgeries they needed and then too low and they were taking sugar pills and the logic of it all didn’t make sense to me. One friend lost her job and couldn’t afford meds and she just wasn’t treating it anymore.

          I never made a big salary and the money they were spending would have caused hardship for me and their doctors had zero bedside manner and they were just getting worse and worse and I knew I wouldn’t do it.

          Honestly, I had been doing all-night caretaking for years and hadn’t gone to the doctor in long enough that I didn’t know if I was Diabetic or not and I promised a friend I would test my A1C eventually, but first I wanted to do the clean up my eating step, because all of them paid for two or three extra doctor’s appointments before starting the Metformin, before starting the Insulin.

          In the meantime, my cousin is being told by his doctor that he had to come off the medicines he was on for insulin for the past 25 years, because they might hurt his kidneys and he and I talked and “kidney problems” was one of the threats they used to get him on those exact medicines in the first place. The logic of they told me Diabetes would hurt my kidneys, then put me on medicines, which would hurt my kidneys and now they are taking me off was so absurd that I never kept the A1C test promise I made, but I did go vegan low fat.

          Vegan was an escape hatch for me.

          1. I wrote the bottom part with errors.

            My cousin had his doctors take him off his Diabetes meds, because the doctors said, “They are hurting your kidneys” and he said, “That was the ‘threat’ they gave me about Diabetes to get me on the meds in the first place. Diabetes will hurt your kidneys, so take these meds, which will hurt your kidneys for 25 years, then, stop taking them?”

            1. Deb, . . my change to a WFPB diet happened 10 years ago when I started to see my blood work numbers change for the worse. Going WFPB made everything better. I also failed to mention in my post above about the positive changes I incurred when I went from pre-diabetic status to an A1c of 5.7 and then, this past year, 4.7. Clearly no diabetes.
              Diabetes, ultimately, is about too many calories. And we live in a society of lots of temptation. What was helpful to me was to build in a minimum of 12 hr or more fast each day and to eat my more calorie dense foods earlier in the day when I can burn off the calories. If I am hungry in the evening – salad, salad, and more salad. Which I have come to crave. Intermittent fasting is also a great way to help with the situation of too many calories.
              Best of luck and health to you :-).

              1. Thank you Ruth.

                I am at the beginning of this process and have so much to learn about all of it.

                I laugh, because even comparing McDougall to Furhman and Barnard and Greger in which foods to eat as a vegan is already so complicated.

                McDougall said a sentence in a friendly debate between a group of vegan doctors. He said something like “Whichever one you will eat.” and that logic sticks with me.

                It took me a year to get vegan and I think I am doing it, but I still haven’t introduced rice or potatoes or bread or quinoa or any other starch or grain type food back into my diet yet and I feel almost like a person with a finger on a chess piece and it is so complicated sifting through all of the logic and my brain is slowly improving, but it is taking way longer than I expected to figure any of it out.

                Being raised all processed food and junk food and animal products and fast food and restaurant food all the time makes it veganism like learning a foreign language or even more like being a foreigner in a land and trying to figure out every single thing about it all at once.

                I feel like I am genuinely getting there.

                1. On top of that, I am pondering the avocados and seeds and nuts, which a few of them limit, and I haven’t been limiting yet.

                  I am at the age where losing the weight I gained over the past few years is challenging and it seems like it might be the avocados or seeds, if the studies are right about the nuts. (I was doing all-night caretaking of my grandmother and wasn’t falling asleep until 4 in the morning and then had work during the day.)

                  1. Deb, weight for weight, cereals are half the calories of nuts and seeds, which McDougall points out, especially in the case of nuts are not a natural BULK food source. Bulk should come from the cereals and pseudo grains- quinoa, amaranth, buckwheat and of course from legumes…. beans beans beans, filling and rich in nutrients. Otherwise there is a danger of slipping into the raw diet trap of very high fat. It is easy to get into the inhabit of putting some beans on to soak overnight and with a pressure cooker, there are some very good electric ones on the market, it is simplicity itself to cook these up. Greger is a fan of tins- he calls them cans (!)- and I have never been able to understand his attachment to packaging capable of leaking toxins into the foods… but there you are, life was not meant to be easy, and one way or the other you work at it.

                    1. Gillian, I am amused by your chuckling over Greger calling tins “cans”
                      because that’s what I call them, too. I’m guessing you live in the British Isles or some extension. We also refer to cans as “tin cans” sometimes….

                    2. Yes, depending on where you live/come from, cans may refer to female breasts so I can understand Gillian’s amusement.

                  2. Deb – I did the caretaking thing as well for both of my parents. It’s exhausting. I understand. One just does the best they can in the circumstances.
                    So one thing you may find helpful for the weight issue is the concept of calorie density. The idea, if one is trying to shed some pounds, to fill up on foods with less calorie density. For example, fruits and vegetables are less calorie dense than oils and nuts and seeds. Vegetables have 60-195 calories per pound. Oils have 4,000 calories per pound. Here is a link to the concept of calorie density by Jeff Novick, R.D. a WFPB registered dietician:
                    http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Articles/Entries/2012/5/20_A_Common_Sense_Approach_To_Sound_Nutrition.html
                    If you’d rather watch a presentation by him, check out a free youtube video on calorie density: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CdwWliv7Hg&feature=youtu.be
                    You can also buy his fast food DVD’s on Amazon where he shows you how to make quick easy vegan food. Also check him out on youtube where he’s got a ton of video’s. He makes WFPB eating quick and easy.
                    https://www.google.com/search?q=jeff+novick+fast+food+youtube&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS763US763&oq=jeff+novick&aqs=chrome.5.69i57j0l5.10182j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
                    Here is his site: http://jeffnovick.com/RD/Home.html
                    He makes the whole vegan thing much easier to get on board with. Work your way through his website and you’ll get a ton of information. Under the Resources tab is a boatload of additional information and help.

                    I don’t know what your age is, but for me, being mid-60’s, my metabolism has slowed for sure. It’s a challenge no matter what your diet or lifestyle. But my suggestion is to follow McDougall’s suggestions and make sure you eat beans, corn, potatoes coupled with green vegg like broccoli, summer squash, salad vegg, artichoke, cauliflower. Always a big salad with rich green leafy vegg. Sometimes I just eat some tofu with a plate full of green and yellow vegetables. You’ll get the hang of it. Sometimes it’s about learning what you like. Experiment. Be adventurous. Have fun with it. Don’t be afraid to try new things and make some things that aren’t so hot. Comes with the territory. I cook big pots of beans, soups, and have them on hand so that I don’t have to cook every day.
                    Good luck and let us know how you’re doing ok?

          2. Deb, I think that you are doing a great job by changing your diet. It reminds me of a colleague years ago who was diagnosed as pre-diabetic (or diabetic?), with recommendations for a restricted diet and a prescription for metformin, both of which she was to start the following Monday. So what did she boast about doing all weekend? Cramming as much of the “forbidden foods” that “They” wouldn’t let her eat into her mouth all weekend. I thought she was nuts. It was pretty clear that her diet had led her to her diagnosis in the first place.

            And persevere! My brother was overweight and diabetic (pre-diabetic?) with several other problems, when several years ago he changed his eating to vegan. (He also started exercising.) He lost 70 pounds, has been taken off several meds and has lowered the dose of the few left — he hopes eventually to zero. About 2 years ago, he attended a program by http://www.chiphealth.com, and improved his diet and exercise even more. btw, he looks great! And he says that he feels much better. He’s almost 69.

          3. Deb, my husband is in his mid 70s and doesn’t take any prescription meds. He switched to a vegetarian diet 10 years ago when he met me — he was a widower eating processed food, not too much but still gaining weight. Over the next 18 months, he lost about 30 pounds. We recently transitioned to WFPB eating, and our weights drifted down even more. I’m in my mid 60s, and the only drug I take is tamoxifen for breast cancer (it literally runs riot in my family). But that was my incentive for finally giving up eggs — I’d dropped dairy products several years earlier.

            And here’s what makes me angry: Not One Word about diet. I bring it up at each visit, and the oncologists just shrug. Well, knock wood; we do the best we can.

  5. Kind of funny, way back in mid 1960’s when I was a teenager, I would get wicked painful ones towards the back of my mouth right where the of my football mouth guard would rub. They pretty much would last all through football season and continue until the end of wrestling season. I did not do a Spring sport. Stress induced, hmmmmm???

    The funny bit is that the doctor always told me to eat lots of yogurt and drink plenty of milk. Even gave me lactose tablets to suck on!

  6. I don’t drink milk or use dairy but I have noticed over the years that I primarily get canker sores (oops or is it cold sores now i can’t remember) when I eat oranges which is typically in the winter when I get a cold. I otherwise don’t eat many oranges. It seems to be when I cut it with the peel on & the rind comes in contact with my mouth. Always wondered if it had to do with fungicide or something on peel.

      1. Jerry Lewis – So far, no one has used the word “bad” (or, conversely, “good”) to describe the effects of milk and gluten in today’s video – except you. The message and discussion so far has been about if the gluten or dairy affects one in a way that is uncomfortable one might consider removing it from their diet and see if they feel better.
        The value judgement of bad and good has come, so far, only from you. So please don’t start another fight on this site. Just let the people who enjoy these discussions share what works – or doesn’t – for them without the drama from you.

      2. If I were a person who experienced anaphylactic shock and death from a severe milk allergy, I could classify that in the “not so good” category to say the least. Same with gluten if my tissue testing showed that my villi in my intestine were damaged from gluten. We know that those with serious gluten difficulties can have serious malabsorption and malnutrition. I, personally, would consider those situations to be bad for me personally.

  7. Does anyone ever have swelling and soreness of one or more tastebuds on the tongue? I’ve had them for years and associated them with too much ice cream. Does anyone even know what they are called?

    1. I have never heard of anyone making a connection between milk or ice cream , but if it causes them for you it would be very worth your while to stay away from it . Unless if you think black cherry or maple walnut ice cream is worth it .lol Those are my favorites , but most likely I don’t have more than maybe once a year .
      The one I always hear people complain about is fresh pineapple , which I also love but everybody else in the family complains about them so we normally don’t have that . Just wondering if pineapple was also tested ?

      1. Buster, . . .I share this information for those who are unaware: Milk is a very well-known as well as long-known allergen to many children and adults. That is one reason why you see on package labels notification that a product is made with or made in a facility alongside milk, peanuts and/or wheat. Some people can have severe and life threatening reactions to these foods up to and including anaphylaxic shock and death. Others can have more mild reactions such as the severe stabbing-pain and bloating I felt intestinally when I was a child. It is a matter to be taken very, very seriously. The term “lactose intolerance” was not yet described, but I didn’t need a diagnoses to tell me that my innards were in turmoil if I consumed dairy. If one were to go to the government supported website PubMed (which is where research is published for the public to review) one can research milk allergies and find over 500 listings (to date) on this topic. I picked one of interest to share here:
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24939374
        This research from Germany concludes that the four areas of most allergic reactions are from 1)Wasp and bee venom, 2) Peanut legume, and 3)Animal protein-milk, and 4) Analgesic drugs. To quote from their research: “Food anaphylaxis was most frequently induced by peanuts, cow milk, and hen’s egg in children and by wheat and shellfish in adults.” This particular bit of research was centered on the extreme allergic reaction of anaphylaxis. Here is the definition:
        ” Anaphylaxis is a serious allergic reaction that is rapid in onset and may cause death. It typically causes more than one of the following: an itchy rash, throat or tongue swelling, shortness of breath, vomiting, lightheadedness, and low blood pressure. So they were focusing on the potential death aspect of allergies. It is well known that allergies can exist on a continuum including everything from rashes and discomfort up to death.

        I too enjoy black cherry and maple walnut dessert – just in a different “milk” base. And if one hasn’t had “ice cream” made from frozen bananas as the base, let me just say that you are really missing out!! (There are many banana-based iced desserts on the web – go check ’em out :-).
        Thanks for listening.

        1. Absolutely love bananas as well , my take along every morning breakfast is 2 bananas . Lactose intolerance and allergy are two distinct things , hopefully few have both .

          1. Lactose intolerance and allergy may be two distinct things but one of the things they have in common is cows milk. One could certainly have one reaction and not the other, . . but one reaction seems sufficient to eliminate dairy if its bothersome.

        2. Lactose intolerance and allergy to milk and not including bad for the health, are mainly caused by the consumption of heavily processed 2% or low fat milk. Consumption of raw milk does not give this problem because of all the milk enzymes that do not get destroyed.

          1. I lived on a ranch for many years and had access to raw cows milk which I did consume at the time. I still had lactose intolerance although the term had not yet been described at that time. Lactose intolerance is the inability to digest the milk sugar lactose. It is a genetic situation where the person does not make the enzymes to digest lactose. It is quite common and most of my family are also lactose intolerant. Raw or pasteurized milk has nothing to do with lactose intolerance.

            However, if one wishes to consume raw milk for their own reasons there are ways to find that product. What is important, however, is to understand the entirety of the decision that one is making when one chooses to consume raw cows milk. Consuming raw milk can expose a person to various bacteria that can cause grave illness – or death – one of which is campylobacter. There are other undesirable aspects to drinking raw milk such as the Bovine Leukemia Virus (BLV) which causes leukemia in cows. It had been thought for years that this leukemia virus could not jump the species barrier – i.e., could not infect human beings. That is now proven to be a mistaken assumption as BLV has been isolated in the cancerous breast tissue of women who have had breast cancer surgery. Researchers are now making the link between the BLV and the breast cancer itself. One can read about this here: http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/09/15/bovine-leukemia-virus-breast-cancer/ Europe does not allow cows infected with BLV to produce milk for its citizens – their cows are tested and culled. The USA does not test for BLV in its milk supply (which is held in large community vats together before distribution) and therefore does not cull infected cows from its herds.

            If a person would like to consume raw milk that is certainly their prerogative. But in addition to being informed about the potential benefits of raw milk drinking, they should also be informed of the potential hazards. Isn’t that only fair? Here is a link to over 130 research papers on raw cows milk and the campylobacter poisoning of such. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=23643114 If anyone would like to read about the death rate from campylobacter one can go here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3989964
            In addition to campylobacter, one can also consume E.coli, samonella, listeria, and mycobacteria while drinking raw cows milk if they so choose to consume. Mycobacteria is a bacteria in its own class which includes tuberculosis. Let me share a quote: Tuberculosis remains as the world’s biggest threat. In 2014, human tuberculosis ranked as a major infectious disease by the first time, overcoming HIV death rates. Bovine tuberculosis is a chronic disease of global distribution that affects animals and can be transmitted to humans by the consumption of raw milk, representing a serious public health concern. If one would like to read this particular research, they can find it here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28591268

            So one might choose not to drink raw milk because of lactose intolerance to the sugars in milk (lactase) or the allergies to the proteins in milk. And one might choose to go forward and drink raw milk because they feel it is better for them. That is certainly up to them. But it is important and only fair that a person also have the full picture of the pros and cons of consuming raw milk and make an educated full-picture decision for themselves.

            To Jerry Lewis and your position that you enjoy drinking raw milk: I say bottoms up!! :-).

            1. Re: To Jerry Lewis and your position that you enjoy drinking raw milk: I say bottoms up!! :-).

              You are wrong. I don’t drink milk because I already eat enough fat, protein, calcium, vitamins, etc. via the other foods and I don’t need to get more.

              Having said that, whenever I consume dairy products, I make sure that it comes from raw milk.

              Now after Buster post about GcMAF over the weekend, I do some research and decide that I will make GcMAF yogurt and it will be made if course from raw milk. I only need to eat a tiny cup to get all the GcMAF that I need.

              1. Jerry Lewis – my position to you is the same whether you drink your raw milk, eat it in raw milk yogurt, raw milk cheese or however you consume it – go ahead and enjoy it. Bottoms up! (it’s just an expression) and for you . . . the more the merrier. The sooner the better.

                  1. I simply wished you to consume the food that you enjoy – your raw milk products. And to consume them often, with gusto, enjoyment, and regularity. You’ve made a point of stating how good they are for you. I am in your camp with you for you to enjoy what you choose and what you like.I support your choice to choose what you want to consume. Nothing mean about that in any regard.

                    Perhaps you need a little psychological support. . . .?

              2. Ruth
                I was curious if you yourself have weighed the pros and cons or do you just listen to repeats of the same dogma from the same source ? Raw Milk TVO is on youtube , they have a debate about raw milk . There is Dr Hill who is very much against raw milk , then there is Mark Mcafee a producer of raw milk as well as Michael Schmidt who has been selling raw milk for 30 years . There is also Rotten on Netflix and tons of other material .New york times did several articles on allergies , in their investigation they were surprised to learn in Amish studies done by a Dr , the Amish had almost no allergies and the majority of those drink raw milk .
                Kefir and yogurt sales which has bacteria added back are increasing by 20% per year , most people have no trouble digesting those . You simply can not fool all the people ,a lot of people know how different foods make them feel and everyone needs to have good digestion and free of allergies .
                Please don’t base your decisions on NFO 3 times per week video infomercials to sell more books , that after all is not science but merely propaganda .

                1. Yes, and if you want a balanced approach, since Buster works for the dairy industry and advocates dairy, be sure to check out this from the FDA:

                  https://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm079516.htm

                  It says:

                  *”Here are some common myths and proven facts about milk and pasteurization:*

                  – *Pasteurizing milk DOES NOT cause lactose intolerance and allergic reactions. Both raw milk and pasteurized milk can cause allergic reactions in people sensitive to milk proteins.* – *Raw milk DOES NOT kill dangerous pathogens by itself.* – *Pasteurization DOES NOT reduce milk’s nutritional value.* – *Pasteurization DOES NOT mean that it is safe to leave milk out of the refrigerator for extended time, particularly after it has been opened.* – *Pasteurization DOES kill harmful bacteria.* – *Pasteurization DOES save lives.”*

                  I wouldn’t consume milk anymore anyway; I already did that when I was ignorant. However, if you DO consume milk, make sure it’s pasteurized.
                  Raw milk is dangerous.

                  1. Liisa
                    So according to CDC . For the last ten years 0 deaths from raw milk .
                    Produce 3330 deaths
                    Poultry 2780 deaths
                    Pork 820 deaths
                    Fish 710 deaths
                    Beef 550 deaths
                    Please make special note of this one FDA approved drugs 1,060,000 deaths .
                    I have no ties to raw milk or it’s promotion whatsoever .

                    1. Buster, do people have to DIE for you to care? Your argument doesn’t hold water because a lot more people eat the items you’ve listed than drink raw milk.
                      Also, you ARE a representative of the dairy industry.

                      According to the CDC ( https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmilk/rawmilk-outbreaks.html):

                      “CDC has conducted two studies that show an increase in the number of raw milk-associated outbreaks as more states have allowed the legal sale of raw (unpasteurized) milk.
                      *Increased Outbreaks Associated with Nonpasteurized Milk, United States, 2007–2012 *

                      This more recent study reviewed outbreaks linked to raw milk in the United States. The study analyzed the number of outbreaks; the legal status of raw milk sales in each state; and the number of illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths associated with these outbreaks.

                      + The number of outbreaks linked to raw milk has increased.

                      + Children were at the highest risk for illness from raw milk.

                      + More states are legalizing the sale of raw milk even though this leads to an increase in the number of outbreaks.

                      + Raw milk sales in one state can lead to outbreaks in neighboring states.

                      Nonpasteurized (Raw) Dairy Products, Disease Outbreaks, and State Laws—United States, 1993–2006

                      A previous study reviewed outbreaks linked to dairy products. The study compared outbreaks linked to raw (unpasteurized) dairy products and outbreaks linked to pasteurized dairy products in terms of the types of infection; the numbers of outbreaks, illnesses, hospitalizations, and deaths; and age and sex of the ill people in the outbreaks. This study also compared the number of outbreaks linked to raw dairy products in states that allowed the sale of raw dairy products to the number in states that prohibited the sale of these products.
                      What were the findings of this study?
                      + Raw milk was much more likely to be linked to outbreaks than pasteurized milk.
                      + Outbreaks linked to raw milk tended to cause more severe disease.
                      + Younger people were affected more in outbreaks linked (to) raw milk than in outbreaks linked to pasteurized milk.
                      + States that allow the sale of raw milk had more outbreaks linked to drinking raw milk.

                      “These studies indicate that outbreaks from raw milk continue to threaten the public’s health. You should only consume pasteurized milk and milk products. Look for the word “pasteurized” on product labels.”

                  2. No one needs to be sucking the teet of another species. It isn’t healthful, nor is it necessary, and when you think of it, it’s just not right. Never was I as sick as when i suffered salmonella poisoning from raw milk. Dairy fresh, right from the barn. uggghh!

                2. Buster – I welcome your comment and question. I did not base any of my response on anything from NutritionFacts. I went to the Science website PubMed and looked up the science and listed it in my response above so that anyone could view the science and facts for themselves. You, apparently, did not look at it. Too bad.
                  But for others who would like to view the facts – from published, peer-reviewed, scientific research accepted by professional scientific organizations, – take a look at the links I posted above. The first link will take you to hundreds of articles on raw milk and what you might want to know and be aware of before consuming. If, after educating yourself, you want to consume raw milk, have at it. It’s up to all individuals what they want to consume. I simply provided some links to information so that one can have a full-circle review of the information. That’s all.
                  I am neither pro nor con milk – it’s up to the individual if they want to consume. But they should have the full compliment of facts. That’s all.

        3. Frozen bananas mixed up in a high speed blender with a little PLANT milk, maybe some cacao powder, maybe some frozen black raspberries, blueberries and/or blackberries is the bees’ knees! You can make all kinds of really fabulous “ice cream” from frozen bananas this way. One of my favorites is a take on cherry garcia–some chopped dark sweet cherries just pulsed after the bananas are “creamed” and maybe a few pulsed walnuts. YUM!!!

          1. This is a reply to Liisa who does not have a reply button under her comment . I never said raw is safer , it is not as safe as pasteurized milk which is safest of any food group . There are people who would like to have choice , they have places where people can inject themselves with drugs , there are cigarette sales , there are alcohol sales now weed here is legal in July . Raw milk is pretty safe comparatively . Whether you believe it or not a lot of people have cured themselves of various ills by the consumption of raw milk .
            In the 1800’s people died from bad water , 1900’s from contaminated milk and other foods , that need not happen with raw milk in 2018 , we can test milk on the go and set standards for the production of milk in addition to what we already have .
            The dairy I work for only has pasteurized milk , we make milk kefir which to me has a lot of advantages over fluid milk and according to mail I get , a lot of people with stomach issues allergies etc have had good results . All I am saying is look at all the evidence , Raw Milk TVO is on you tube , TVO is a public broadcasting station and they look into the issue of raw milk . There are no hard conclusions , they have both sides . If anything I have a stake in pasteurized milk not raw . I also see the bigger picture of being fair .
            I am not trying to be ignorant here but Esselstyne did use milk and yogurt in his heart study patients as did Ornish , there must have been some reason for that .Not every study on milk has come out negative results .
            Esselstyne also did a article for Campbells website called Abolishing Heart Disease , in which he mentions how Norway heart disease plummeted during the war due to the fact they had to eat only grains , vegetables and fruit . Look it up , there are websites that detail what foods were available , look carefully for milk consumption went up slightly , fish consumption more than doubled .
            Where we are we have a Governor General who represents the Queen Of England , that entire royal family drinks raw milk , yet it seems unconstitutional for her subjects in Canada can not legally do so .

            1. Buster. You first claimed that people in England can’t drink raw milk. That was not correct. Now you are saying that people in Canada can’t drink raw milk. That’s not really true either. There are no laws against drinking raw milk – only laws prohibiting its sale/distribution Even there, there appears to be a way around those laws since people who have fractional ownership of dairy herds can also drink raw milk
              https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/dairy-farmer-wins-battle-over-raw-milk/article4302382/

              Raw milk products can be sold though it seems since there was a recall of a raw milk cheese in Canada last month because of contamination by staph toxins
              http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/index_e.php?s1=dr-rl&s2=canad

              And you keep saying that the Queen drinks raw milk although I have never seen any evidence for that . Perhaps she does but it’s irrelevant. She owns a dairy herd. Anyone who runs cattle in Canada can also drink their (raw) milk.

              By the way, your knowledge of the Canadian Constitution appears to be a little shakey if you believe that the GG represents the “Queen of England.”

              1. According to Wikipedia the Governor General and I quote ” is the federal viceregal representative of the Canadian Monarch currently Queen Elizabeth the 2nd ”
                Why TG do you continually come on here to embarrass yourself ?
                You don’t have the latest on fractional ownership either as the guy you mention is currently serving 6 months jail for operating a fractional ownership . It is a ongoing story for 30 years .
                Michael Schmidt Sentenced to 60 Days in Jail – Blackburn News

            2. Buster, Esselstyn seems to have become wiser in that he now advocates plants only, which does not include milk.

              My point about raw milk is that it is not safe. You say people have cured themselves. Where is the science on that?

    2. Now that you mention it, I have. I always just called it an inflamed tastebud. And, like the disappearance of the frequent canker sores when I went vegan from heavy egg-milk vegetarian, the inflamed taste-buds have subsided as well… didn’t even think about ’em till you reminded me of them. Anecdotal I know, but dems my facts. Wishing you good luck with your tastebuds!

    3. Hi Linda! What you’re describing sounds like transient lingual papillitis, which is often caused by consuming a lot of acidic or sugary foods.

  8. I have never been prone to canker sores, even when I ate dairy and gluten. Now a vegan eating a plant based diet, thanks to Michael Greger and CLL.

    However, one of the side effects of the targeted immunotherapy drug I now take is mouth sores. Once I started using 2 drops of Oil of Oregano on my toothpaste, twice a day, the existing sores quickly healed and stopped forming. Don’t know if this would help for other mouth sores, but it has kept my mouth sore-free for over a year.

  9. I do think the bacteria in milk might be to blame. I’ve been off milk for a few years now and still get canker occasionally. The trigger for me is acidic foods, like Lemons, limes, tomatoes, table sugar, toothpastes, possibly milk. I can induce a canker in a couple days with just adding lemon to my water or eating a bunch of raw tomatoes,

    1. Eating foods high in arginine will definitely stimulate the herpes virus. Nuts are almost all high in arginine, so if this is a problem, cut back on nuts and seeds. Eat them, but in minimal amounts. You could also take a lysine capsule any time you eat high arginine foods, to counter the effect.

      A cause of canker sores for me is ingesting too much vinegar. I once tried it for the acid, thinking it would help make my stomach more acidic, after an experience where I felt I wasn’t making enough stomach acid. Within days I got a canker sore, and as soon as one would clear up another would pop out. I looked online for canker sore causes and found that vinegar can trigger them. I stopped adding vinegar at each meal and the canker sores stopped forming.

        1. Checking now currently it is a so so no no ;)
          All their dietary things are a personal choice though they suggest diet to their followers.The prime founder a Ms White had it as a strict no no.

        2. And the 7th day Adventists are wrong.

          Vinegar and lime/emon are not acidic in the stomach although they taste sour.

          In fact they are alkaline foods.

          1. Jerry – Nobody said anything about the Adventists being “right” or “wrong”. Ron just mentioned their position as a matter of interest to the discussion. He made no value judgement about it.

            Your need to be right all the time is curious. Have you considered psychological help?

              1. Jerry, I keep hearing that, but I believe in the stomach they are very much acid. It’s probably not until they are all the digested they become base. but you can’t tell my ulcer or cold sores that. Just like all other acid foods.

                And arginine seems to play no role in mine either. As I supplement with it and citruline. So either I have a lot different triggers than most , or this info is weak.

            1. Thanks Ruth yeah I was just mentioning it as a curiosity of sorts some may find interesting and care to investigate.
              I use vinegar always in salads. Some say it bad some good, I find it has no sugar and with a choice of oil, I use hemp, it makes for a good salad dressing.
              I prefer the taste of the grape ones but really the cheapest I can find organic is the apple cider stuff, so I bought a gallon or so and am still working through it.
              Right or wrong..seems funny that. I’d guess it may be OK for some and not OK for others. REally removing sugar in salad dressings or the fake sugars is my why. I make my own then.

              Right or wrong like this food thing is a religious thing….seems funny that.;) I can see it now….god says you must eat only right foods not wrong ones…how silly that.

          2. You’ve intrigued me Jerry… how is vinegar, lemon, lime not acidic in the stomach? One of the properties of acids is that they do taste sour (in fact, the german word for acidic is “sauer” which literally means “sour” as in sauerkraut.) As you noted, before they hit the stomach, they are acids and have pHs of ~2.9, ~2.3, ~2.4 respectively. The stomach carries hydrochloric acid at a pH of about 1, so relative to the stomach, they are less acid, but not basic.

            Can you help me out here to understand how vinegar, lemon & lime are alkaline foods?

            1. Ralph, yeah look can be very deceiving. It all depends on what the food will turn into when digested, For instance, lime/lemon, vinegar, etc. will turn into alkaline in the stomach, while sweet foods like sugar will turn into acidic.

              https://www.tacanow.org/family-resources/balancing-the-gut-why-do-you-want-to-be-more-alkaline/

              “One might think that fresh lemons and limes and raw organic apple cider vinegar are acidic, but they actually become alkaline when consumed. Prime examples of acid forming foods are proteins, sugar, coffee, juice and processed foods.”

              FYI, I eat a lime/lemon in the morning with my breakfast for the vitamin C and to make my body alkaline and a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in the evening with my salad.

              1. All I saw was the same statement you made about vinegar, lemons and limes becoming acidic after being eaten. I’d like to understand how that happens

                  1. The article explains a lot. The ash test was developed in the mid-1800s when Claude Bernard noted that switching rabbit diets from herbivore to carnivore caused their urine to go from basic to acid and mistakenly concluded that the entire body had it’s pH changed as well. In his investigation, he incinerated the food and tested the pH of what remained. I’ve actually done those tests in the lab when I was a student. The ash bears no more resemblance to the process of digestion than does a forest fire.

                    I don’t fault Bernard for his mistaken understanding because he was one of the pioneers of nutrition research and had little knowledge or equipment to use to advance the science. Sadly, hucksters since then have misused his results to create and promote “science” that just happens to make them rich by selling supplements to the gullible. What these hucksters willingly ignore is the fact that while foods like vinegar, citrus, etc are acids, they are weak acids. They mix with your stomach acid which is 20-100 times more acidic so that your body can start ripping apart the molecules for their nutrients… every thing that leaves the stomach is strongly acidic. The body then neutralizes the acidic slurry with pancreatic enzymes and filters the waste products through the kidneys in order to keep the pH of the blood constant through buffered chemistry. These foods may make the urine basic or acidic, but not the blood. Indeed, the LAST thing you want to do to your body is to make it go even more basic than it normally maintains as there are diseases related to alkalosis caused by excessive alkalinity. These hucksters rely on the public to read only a paragraph or two in articles that discuss the science and accept their assertions without understanding what’s been said.

                    So, while your comment that follows below get’s it right, your comment above is based on the confusion between blood pH with urine pH. When your body takes in acid foods like vinegar and citrus, it isn’t making acids turn to bases… instead the body moves the acid compounds from the gut to the kidneys and dumps the excess acid into our urine to ensure the body’s pH stays in a very tight, only slightly basic pH range.

                    1. Ralph, the history of Bernard that you posted look interesting.

                      Re: When your body takes in acid foods like vinegar and citrus, it isn’t making acids turn to bases… instead the body moves the acid compounds from the gut to the kidneys and dumps the excess acid into our urine to ensure the body’s pH stays in a very tight, only slightly basic pH range.

                      I am no expert on this and I am just brainstorming out loud. I think while it’s partially true that the body dumps the excess acid via the urine, when they incinerate vinegar in the lab, the ash become alkaline and there is no place that the acid gets dumped. So as the following Quara article explains, the body metabolizes the vinegar into H2O (water) and CO2 that we exhale.

                      The other thing that we cannot measure in the lab but only inside the body is the pre and probiotics that come with the food, i.e. ACV or lime/lemon, that will help breaking down the food better to alkalize it. So it’s important that we consume good acid food source in the first place, such as Braggs ACV with the Mother or fresh and organic lime/lemon.

                      https://www.quora.com/How-does-apple-cider-vinegar-become-alkaline-when-its-inside-the-body

                1. And don’t ever buy the pH strip to measure the pH of the urine because it is a waste of money. The body will try to regulate the pH inside the body and you can eat a load of acidic foods and still measure alkaline in the urine with the strip but that does not mean that you are eating healthy.

                  1. Perhaps we shouldn’t be so hard on poor little jerry lewis. He so wants to be an expert – at something. Anything. And so is not. And he gets angry, and attacking, and demeaning, and . . . well the list goes on. Poor little jerry lewis. . . .

                  2. Gee Jerry, the Healthline article explained it pretty well. So did Ralph. What’s not to understand.

                    Also.as far as I can understand, the whole alkalising diet thing has no actual evidence to support it just a lot of speculation based on a misunderstanding or ten.

                    “Despite the promotion of the alkaline diet and alkaline water by the media and salespeople, there is almost no actual research to either support or disprove these ideas. This systematic review of the literature revealed a lack of evidence for or against diet acid load and/or alkaline water for the initiation or treatment of cancer. Promotion of alkaline diet and alkaline water to the public for cancer prevention or treatment is not justified”
                    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916623/

                    Your belief is this sort of thing seems consistent with your other beliefs, though. Talking about such clusters of beliefs, here’s an idea for your next holiday that you might find congenial

                    https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-woo-boat-or-how-far-andrew-wakefield-has-fallen/

                    1. TG, I don’t really understand this acid/alkaline thing either, and I am finding that the Healthline article raises further questions in my mind. It explains the logarithmic nature of the pH scale so, for example, a substance at pH5 is ten times more acidic than one at pH6, and 100 times more acidic than one at pH7; but wouldn’t that mean the acidity at pH7 cannot be zero even though it is supposed to be neutral? Furthermore, it would follow that anything on the pH scale must have acidity even if it is alkaline; is this correct? Also, wouldn’t a logarithmic scale run from minus infinity to plus infinity, rather than stopping abruptly at zero and fourteen?

                    2. Hi Joss

                      Unfortunately my maths skills are pretty limited. I still need to take my shoes and socks off to count above ten.

                      Also I don’t really regard Healthline as an authoritative source in any way although it can be a convenient one on occasions like this one.

                      Nevertheless, it’s relatively straightforward. The pH scale measures how acid or basic a substance is. Below 7, substance is acidic, above 7 a substance is basic. Note also that we are talking about the pH scale not the logarithmic scale itself even though logs are used to measure changes in the pH scale itself. You could theoretically have a job pay scale that measured pay bands using a log scale. Or, if you have looked at share chart software, these usually have an option for measuring price changes logarithmically.

                      Or perhaps, think about a scale for measuring height above and below sea level with sea level itself being defined as pH7 etc – if that makes sense.

                      As for zero and infinity, these are not numbers (for the purpose of logarithms anyway) and wouldn’t make any sense in relation to scales such as these.

                      That’s my understanding anyway. Perhaps these links might make it clear
                      http://chemistry.elmhurst.edu/vchembook/184ph.html
                      https://www.rapidtables.com/math/algebra/logarithm/Logarithm_of_Infinity.html

        3. Someone needs to tell the SDAs that I hang out with… not only do they consume vinegar, they’re enthusiastic about using Bragg’s Cider Vinegar because it’s unpasteurized and still has “the mother” left in the bottle which they think is beneficial.

          The founder of the SDA church, Ellen G. White, condemned vinegar as affecting “the morals, the religious life” but that’s probably because vinegar recipes from that day typically used hard ciders and even whisky as ingredients. Given her aversion to anything alcoholic, she rejected the use of vinegar. Current day SDA doctrine-dietary guidance says nothing about including or avoiding the use of vinegar. Here’s an excerpt from their webpage about “vitality”:

          “Exercise and avoidance of harmful substances such as tobacco, alcohol and mind-altering substances lead to clear minds and wise choices. A well-balanced vegetarian diet that avoids the consumption of meat coupled with intake of legumes, whole grains, nuts, fruits and vegetables, along with a source of vitamin B12, will promote vigorous health.”

          1. Which is why I said so so….

            Seventh day Adventists I have known do abscribe to no vinegar…Actually I was getting treated for a eye injury several years back in Colorado and the doc was herself a seventh day Adventist and advised me of that as I mentioned I was vegan. And it had nothing to do with alcohol as she thought it to be detrimental to health. A fine small town doc she was.
            Here in New Mexico my experience is that as I attended many functions at a elementary school they ran in Albuquerque kids and all….many do not follow their diet. But they are seventh day Adventists. My guess is that in groups where they have a pretty large following they do, as in California.

            On vinegar specific I think it depends on the individual. The churches guidelines always are permissive, and not mandatory. And what is in them today and not tomorrow may vary.
            Ms Whites reason for being strongly against it is not proven to be because of alcohol content. It is a bit a question or conjecture on that.

            1. I did not talk to the doc on acidity or alkalinity or any of that. She did not mention that and I don’t even know of they base their not eating it on that.She just thought it unhealthy.
              Thinking about the vinegar thing now…we had a seventh day Adventist restaurant out here in the nob hill area back in the day,(later became a Cajun restaurant with change of ownership) and I do believe they did not serve vinegar at that restaurant as well.

              Coming from working class backrounds they knew how to cook plenty of vegan foods and lots of it…one left satisfied. As opposed to the sprig of parsley type restaurants fashionable back in that day that were vegetarian(mids 90’s)…suited perhaps to office workers or some such. Your whole plate would be full of stuff. They knew how to eat they did. Obviously blue collar stuff you could work a day on.

      1. Rebecca – I occasionally feel like I’m not digesting well enough. Given that I’m entering my elder years that could be true. I’ve started using a digestive enzyme pill (lipase, protease, amylase) with or just after a meal and I think it does help.

        I once tried the vinegar thing too and swallowed a tablespoon straight no knowing to dilute it. OMgosh!!! a few minutes later I had such a severe pain in my chest I thought I was having a heart attack. It was the undiluted vinegar. Won’t make THAT mistake again! :-).

    2. I recently learned from The Good Doctor how sodium laurel sulfate (SLS) can irritate our mouths’ mucosa. SLS sound’s innocuous enough but it is actually a fairly powerful detergent which is added the toothpaste foam during use (i.e., has no active purpose.) While going WF-vegan greatly reduced the number of canker sores I endured, I’ve since found an SLS-free toothpaste (Tom’s of Maine – I have no affiliation with them) and had no canker sores since then (knock wood).

      The two SLS videos Doc G’s produced so far can be found at the link below:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/sodium-lauryl-sulfate/

      Hope this might help others

      1. I would be cautious of Tom’s of Maine..Brand channel I think is the source for the quote…

        “Tom’s of Maine Admits It’s Not Totally Natural With $4.5M Settlement
        Posted July 29, 2015 by Mark J. Miller

        Tom’s of Maine has built its reputation as a company that uses only natural ingredients in its toothpastes, but it turns out that its wholesome image isn’t quite reality. Class-action suits filed in March 2014 and earlier this summer against Tom’s and its owner, Colgate-Palmolive, argue that the products actually contain highly processed ingredients.
        The suits no doubt didn’t bring many smiles at Tom’s or Colgate, which has just reached an agreement to shell out $4.5 million and “change its labeling practices” at Tom’s to put an end to the class-action suits, Law360.com reports.”

        1. This is a bit dated so I don’t know if they still do it..
          “Cornucopia News
          Tell The Honest Company and Tom’s of Maine: Stop the Lies about Carrageenan!
          June 28th, 2013

          The Honest Company recently introduced toothpaste for kids—and included the harmful ingredient carrageenan. When customer complaints poured in, they responded by telling us we are all “confused” and “misinformed” about the difference between degraded carrageenan and food-grade carrageenan—and that food-grade carrageenan is perfectly safe.
          Tom’s of Maine (Colgate-Palmolive) also puts carrageenan in its toothpaste, including kids’ toothpaste, and states on its website that its concerned customers “are under the mistaken impression” that food-grade carrageenan is harmful.
          Since young children tend to swallow their toothpaste, it means a daily dose of this harmful ingredient (researchers are even concerned about the minimal amounts of toothpaste residue that adults swallow).
          By telling us we are confusing degraded carrageenan with food-grade carrageenan, The Honest Company and Tom’s of Maine are parroting the talking points supplied by the carrageenan industry’s trade lobby group.”

        2. Always wise to be cautious. That said, I bought the toothpaste for the absence of SLS, not because it was particularly natural (whatever the Hell that even means after a corporation’s advertising department gets done with the word.) Not everything that is artificial is necessarily harmful (e.g., vitamin B-12 ) and not everything that is natural is necessarily beneficial (e.g., hemlock.)

          If Tom’s was foolish enough to play fast and loose with it’s claims of only natural ingredients, then so be it. But having an unnatural ingredient doesn’t necessarily mean hazardous: I haven’t found that any of the toothpastes out here seemed particularly “natural”. I found that this particular toothpaste has helped me to keep the canker sores away and for that, I’m grateful.

          1. The parent company colgate P is involved in many law suits involving the use of talcum powder and asbestos. Dr Greger has done a video on a related issue with Johnson and Johnson over the same general issue. Johnson and Johnson is has been proven by court released documents it knew it caused cancer and continued to advertise it.
            From a law firms website Mathews…
            “More than 170 Talc Cancer Mesothelioma Cases
            Colgate-Palmolive faces more than 170 lawsuits from people who claim the company sold them talcum powder that contained asbestos. The company has resolved 43 talc asbestos cases so far in 2017, according to Bloomberg News.
            Talcum powder was routinely in American homes for more “than 100 years. Colgate-Palmolive made Cashmere Bouquet from 1871 to 1985, marketing it until 1995.

            That aside colgate P is also a member of the GMA a food industry agricultural lobbying group that has been largely responsible for GMO’s not being labeled GMO’s. It is being done by companies now as basically they have to or the consumers will go organic and not buy it at all, but they still resist any attempt to have the stuff mandatorily marked as part of he product labeling requirement.

            Toothpaste of course is not going to have any GMO’s in them but their parent company has a bit of a wanting track record.

            I do use non SLS toothpaste stuff but will not mention the name. Plenty is out there now. Amazon gives a good description on products and questions asked and ratings of things even if one doesn’t use them. Googleing SLS free toothpaste on Amazon by my guess will get quite a few responses there. Toms as they are now owned by colgate P….I am glad it helps you.
            I will not use it.

            1. To be clear I am no anti Tom’s zealot. I honestly forgot why I got away from using it just remembered I never do and not to, prior to this discussion. How my mind works. I choose a thing stick with it and given ten years time or so may forget the why.
              I even changed my toilet brand as Koch brothers owned it. But I just know what I use not what I don’t so now forget the name ;)

  10. Just a personal observation of course.
    Being vegan since 1990 I had completely forgotten about this. Thinking about it watching this video I did get the occasional one.

    Since then 1990…no never. I now remember how they felt.I do eat plenty of gluten bread about every day. Tortillas on the other days ;).

  11. Al D.

    I’ve never heard of an association between herpes sores and the consumption of gluten. I also did some research but couldn’t find info that talk about this possible relationship.I did find out that herpes sores as those that Dr. Greger described on the video were common in people who was already diagnosed with celiac disease, but not on the general population.

    I think these videos will very helpful for you to understand better who shouldn’t eat gluten

    Is Gluten Bad For You?

    Gluten-Free Diets: Separating the Wheat from the Chat

    Update on Gluten

  12. I haven’t had a canker sore in years, but didn’t make the connection with the plant-based diet I started 7 years ago. Thanks Dr. Greger!
    The only thing I have to watch is if I go wild on three things: lots of vinegar (in big salads), many tablespoons of many spices (in my entrees plus in spicy soy drinks) and if I have say 6 or 7 servings of fruit in a day. If I do all three things, I can get a bit of what’s called “geographic tongue.”

  13. Just a personal observation: since I went WFPB (e.g., no meat, fish, dairy, etc.,) more than five years ago, I haven’t had any canker sores, although I used to get them all the time. To clarify–I’d get them on the inside of my mouth — not on my lip….

  14. This isn’t about canker sores but it does refer to dairy so it is not too far off-topic. Earlier today, I came across a ScienceDaily report about research concerning bacteria found in cattle that can infect dairy and beef (and contaminated produce)

    “A strain of bacteria commonly found in milk and beef may be a trigger for developing rheumatoid arthritis in people who are genetically at risk, according to a new study from the University of Central Florida.”
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180130123743.htm

    Sounds like another very good reason to avoid beef and dairy – and especially raw milk. Good luck with your raw milk yoghurt Jerry.

  15. I suffer with them especially on the tip of my tongue despite being on a wholefoods plant-based diet the majority of the time. Is it true that citrus, coffee, and other acidic foods and drinks can have an impact? I also wear a dental retainer so can friction or rubbing cause them?

    1. Hi thanks for your questions. Canker sores are so annoying!
      Cancer sores typically start with oral trauma so I would guess maybe it is the friction from your retainer is the main cause. Unfortunately acidic foods can trigger a canker sore or make the problem worse. It may help to rinse your mouth after eating anything acidic. Get the acid off your tongue. Dr. Greger actually does not recommend brushing your teeth right after eating or drinking something acidic because it can weaken the enamel. He recommends rinsing. Have you seen Dr. Greger’s video about applying honey to the sore after meals?
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/topical-honey-for-canker-sores/

      NurseKelly

    1. Here are some of the links to answer some of their points:

      Lectins:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dr-gundrys-the-plant-paradox-is-wrong/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-avoid-lectin-poisoning/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/are-lectins-in-food-good-or-bad-for-you/

      Phytates preventing nutrient absorption:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/phytates-for-the-treatment-of-cancer/

      Paleo Diet

      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-problem-with-the-paleo-diet-argument/

      This is about their arguments about insulin:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/paleo-diets-may-negate-benefits-of-exercise/

      Hope that helps some.

      I know that it is so hard that Paleo is using the opposite logic, and that some people are getting improving health, but both whole food plant based and paleo cut out processed food and refined flours.

      It is also hard, because white flour particularly does seem to have an addictive quality and does seem to cause food cravings and there are so many people with gluten sensitivity that it is hard to know what to do with it.

      The fact that the vegan doctors are reversing so many diseases so quickly, I am going to suggest that you look at the diets the researchers like Dr. Ornish and Dr. Barnard and Dr. Fuhrman and Dr. Esselstyn and Dr. McDougall have used to accomplish it.

      For instance, Dr. Barnard has people not eat white or wheat flour. If I am remembering properly, some of the other doctors just say stay away from white flour.

      In the end, the question becomes whether you are having symptoms of something or if their words are causing fear and confusion in you.

      To me, their words cause confusion, but even between the vegan doctors there are competing philosophies and some of the diets, like Dr. Ornish and Esselstyn are excellent at getting people off their heart meds and Dr. Ornish has a “spectrum” and a more restricted diet for people who are sick. Others like Dr. Fuhrman and Barnard seem to be excellent at getting people off their diabetes meds. I say that, because of those two talking about getting people off their meds, where Ornish says the Diabetic patients on his plan need fewer meds, rather than talking about getting them off the meds. McDougall also has a few versions of his program and one is better than the other for weight loss and Diabetes Reversal.

      Don’t know if this helps. It is my thoughts, based on trying to figure things out, but it is easy to look at their programs for grains and to look at their programs for what they are accomplishing. It is easier to look at the results, rather than trying to have an internal Paleo versus Keto versus Vegan debate based on which version of science they are using.

    2. I tried to read my comments and I wrote it so complicated that I want to try to simplify it.

      The vegan doctors are reversing diseases without totally eliminating grains.

      They all do agree with Paleo about white flour and some limit wheat (and some don’t limit wheat)

      The results are what I would look at more than anything. The results simplify the process.

    3. These sensational claims are often designed to garner book sales and profit the people who make them. They are made by hucksters and repeated by gullible cranks. Unsurprisingly, they never seem to mention what the evidence shows about whole grain consumption.

      Grains have been extensively studied. Every credible health authority around the globe advises consumption of whole grains (WG). This is not surprising since

      “Our meta-analysis demonstrated inverse associations of WG intake with total and cause-specific mortality, and findings were particularly strong and robust for CVD mortality. These findings further support current Dietary Guidelines for Americans, which recommends at least 3 servings/day of WG intake”
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4910651/

      “These data indicate that higher whole grain consumption is associated with lower total and CVD mortality in U.S. men and women, independent of other dietary and lifestyle factors. These results are in line with recommendations that promote increased whole grain consumption to facilitate disease prevention.”
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4429593/

      and

      “The summary relative risks per 90 g/day increase in whole grain intake (90 g is equivalent to three servings—for example, two slices of bread and one bowl of cereal or one and a half pieces of pita bread made from whole grains) was 0.81 (95% confidence interval 0.75 to 0.87; I2=9%, n=7 studies) for coronary heart disease, 0.88 (0.75 to 1.03; I2=56%, n=6) for stroke, and 0.78 (0.73 to 0.85; I2=40%, n=10) for cardiovascular disease, with similar results when studies were stratified by whether the outcome was incidence or mortality. The relative risks for morality were 0.85 (0.80 to 0.91; I2=37%, n=6) for total cancer, 0.83 (0.77 to 0.90; I2=83%, n=11) for all causes, 0.78 (0.70 to 0.87; I2=0%, n=4) for respiratory disease, 0.49 (0.23 to 1.05; I2=85%, n=4) for diabetes, 0.74 (0.56 to 0.96; I2=0%, n=3) for infectious diseases, 1.15 (0.66 to 2.02; I2=79%, n=2) for diseases of the nervous system disease, and 0.78 (0.75 to 0.82; I2=0%, n=5) for all non-cardiovascular, non-cancer causes. Reductions in risk were observed up to an intake of 210-225 g/day (seven to seven and a half servings per day) for most of the outcomes. Intakes of specific types of whole grains including whole grain bread, whole grain breakfast cereals, and added bran, as well as total bread and total breakfast cereals were also associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and/or all cause mortality, but there was little evidence of an association with refined grains, white rice, total rice, or total grains.

      Conclusions This meta-analysis provides further evidence that whole grain intake is associated with a reduced risk of coronary heart disease, cardiovascular disease, and total cancer, and mortality from all causes, respiratory diseases, infectious diseases, diabetes, and all non-cardiovascular, non-cancer causes. These findings support dietary guidelines that recommend increased intake of whole grain to reduce the risk of chronic diseases and premature mortality.”
      http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2716

  16. August, Dr Greger has already done numerous videos on the Paleo Diet and on grains. Just use the Search tool at the top of the page to find them.

  17. I found this video particularly interesting. I suffered from painful canker sores all of my life until I switched to the WFPB diet. Before that I was what I call a “cheesoholic”. Stopping consuming cheese was the hardest part for me and I had a lot of slips. It has been almost 2 years for me on the WFPB diet and I haven’t had a single canker sore. Also, important to mention is the fact that I had constant acne since my mid-20s. I am now 55. I rarely get acne now. From what I have learned from Dr Gregor, I came to the conclusion that my high intake of dairy (cheese) was responsible for both my acne and canker sores. I am so grateful to Dr Gregor and all of his research and sharing that research with us. It has literally changed my life. Thank you!

  18. I never had a problem with cankers until I experimented with a paleo diet to try to lose some weight. I was never a big meat eater throughout my life but on that diet I was eating lots of meat and cheese. Boom – ulcers on the gums and worse, white areas the dentist was most concerned about. I dropped that diet immediately and went back to a sort of omni-light diet and the cankers and white areas (which were apparently pre-cancerous, based on the biopsy) went away quickly. I’ve now switched to a WFPB style of eating, no animal stuff, all whole plants, no processed stuff. At my last dental checkup he commented how healthy my gums were now, almost no bleeding during the cleaning. He thought I had changed my flossing routine, but no, I had always been brushing and flossing well. It’s probably the ton of vitamin C and phyto nutrients I’m getting now, plus no cheese!

  19. Allergy testing is based on an IgE response. Not an IgG response. Also it is highly likely that apthous ulcer are due to a cell mediated immune response

  20. Robert,

    Your correct that the original definition of allergy, from 1906, was exclusive to IGE. And you may indeed be on the mark that apthous ulcers are indeed cell mediated.

    The use of IGG testing has been recognized as being another indicator of correctly defined by some as, delayed sensitivity reactions.

    From my clinical experience, many times the results were equally advantageous to the patient and of unknown presence, unlike their awareness of say an anaphylactic type 1 reaction, per IGE.

    When we make statements that Type 1 allergies have no correlation with IGG we lose sight of the science. See as an example: Relationship between IgE and IgG antibodies in type I allergy or a slightly newer study with inhalants comparing IGE/IGG: The Relationship between Symptoms and IgG and IgE Antibodies in an Office Environment or we might want to expand our view with Type 2-4 allergies. Please see this paper and appreciate that the issues with non-immune vs immune mediated responses (figure 1) are significant, regardless of the class or underlying mediators.

    Yes the IGG debate will continue until we have a much more unified sensitive means of teasing out the details for each patient. It’s frustrating, as a clinician, that consumers also need to know the methodology being used for the testing. The variance I’ve seen is substantial and reproducibility is somewhat limited. In our clinic we sent single patient samples for testing at different labs with different results. Overall they were similar, but once again is that adaquate ?

    Here’s to ingesting the right fuel for each of our individualized needs. Consider elimination provocation techniques, when possible coupled with the use of the most sensitive and selective technologies.

    Dr. Alan Kadish Health Support Volunteer

  21. I was organic whole foods plant based diet for twenty years or so ( i did eat gluten and dairy) and almost 9 years high raw vegan (with some beans and small amounts of raw fish). My teeth fell apart. My daughter’s jaw did not develop big and strong. I was just off kilter with skin issues, tooth decay and more. I returned reluctantly to bone broths and organic pastured meats. My cavities remineralized! My skin got better. And I just felt better. Now with baby number two I feed meat to the whole family and dairy and…she clearly has a stronger jaw. and my older daughter has grown more and seems to be thriving.
    I wish you could talk about this. Especially the thing about the teeth. Respond to Dr Ramiel Nagel’s research. Or Dr. Weston Price. also there is the need to soak legumes with an acid to deal with the phytic acid…(which I do) and same with grains. I have seen people who eat raw meat and are so vital. What’s the deal?
    I would love to be convinced again to go plant based…I am NOT unconsious eating. I am smart, engaged, raising kids, and paying attention. I am truly feeling and doing better on meat. (although it still of course bothers me on a spiritual/moral level) And want your thoughts on this! And I am not unusual. There is a whole crew of us who were veg and are now…more like paleo or just whole foods eaters with meat and dairy. Thank you so much for considering!

    1. Hi I’m an RN and health support volunteer with nutritionfacts.org.

      When Dr. Greger is asked about why he continues to recommend a plant based diet when some people manage to be heathy while eating animal based foods, he stresses that the only diet ever proven to reverse heart disease, which is the #1 killer in the US, is a whole food plant based diet. Until there is another diet that can do that, that should be our default diet.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/taking-personal-responsibility-for-your-health/

      I cannot say why you had some of the problems you did. I don’t know the specifics of what you were and weren’t eating and if you were taking the recommended vitamin b12 supplement. But it sounds like you were eating a raw vegan diet. It can be very difficult to get adequate nutrition on a raw vegan diet. Dr. Greger recommends against raw diets for children. Here are a few links to more information on raw diets.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/raw-food-diet-myths/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/raw-food/

      This video may address some of the dentition issues you were having:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-diets-dental-health/

      This is what Dr. Greger recommends for a daily diet.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/dr-gregers-daily-dozen-checklist/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/

      Dr. Greger would agree with you about soaking/ and adequately cooking beans. He has several videos on that:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-avoid-lectin-poisoning/

      We can all point to people we know who eat meat and dairy and seem perfectly healthy. But when we do larger population studies and randomized controlled studies, we see the longterm effects. It’s a little like pointing to a smoker who doesn’t have lung cancer. There is still evidence that this is not healthy behavior. You don’t know if there is plaques forming in someone’s arteries. Here is one more video:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/evidence-based-nutrition/

      I hope that helps.
      NurseKelly

  22. I have been trying to convince a coworker of the inflammatory properties of milk particularly since he suffers from Crohn and his nutritionist has him eating tons of yogurt. In response he sent me this article -https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2014.967385.
    A recent review of dairy’s anti-inflammatory properties. Can you please address

  23. I only seem to get canker sores on my tongue, and only after certain foods with tomatoes. Panera tomato soup (so, possibly the cream) and deep dish pizza from a local place (cheese) but not other pizzas with either real cheese or casein-added soy cheese from Trader Joe’s if I make my own. (I’ve tried many vegan cheese, all terrible or way too expensive.)

    Small tomatoes are fine, as well as most marinara sauces, even with real Parmesan. Tried “nutty nooch parm”, not the same.

    So confusing! The only thing that works for me is lysine.

    1. Hello,

      I am quite familiar with the study you are referencing, so will do my best to clear up the confusion for you. The PURE study has been heavily criticized since its release due to the sheer number of confounding variables and they did not break down macronutrients (eg. lumped all carbohydrates together, regardless of source). One of the major issues with the study is that they did not control for access to healthcare. This is important because the groups that consumed the most carbohydrates were more likely to be from third world countries with lower socioeconomic status and less access to healthcare. Furthermore, for many in the highest carbohydrate group, their main protein source was also white rice. This indicates that they were malnourished and not eating a varied diet. Now if you compare a group that is almost exclusively living off of white rice with poor access to healthcare vs. a European group who consumes many foods including meat and dairy, the European group is most likely going to do better. In the specific study you linked, the dairy group most likely did better than the non-dairy group because the non-dairy group was malnourished.

      That should give you a basic understanding on how these findings can occur in this study, but if you’d like to take a deep dive into the PURE study and learn more about the issues with it, I have linked a great article written by Dr. David Katz.

      Matt

      https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/diet-health-puzzling-past-paradox-pure-understanding-david/

  24. Hi, I’m looking for information about gluten and dairy and potential inflammatory foods on autoimmune diseases. I have recently developed Graves Disease and I did so much research about diet but there wasn’t much. Lucky I have a friend who is a nutritionist and she has put me onto the Autoimmune Protocol (AIP diet) and I feel amazing. Plus my T4 & T3 levels have significantly reduced since being on it. I want to share this with the hope you will have the chance to review any studies out there because I hope that others will find this and have the same positive experience I have with complimentary healing through nutrition.

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