Heavy Metal Urine Testing & Chelation for Autism

Heavy Metal Urine Testing & Chelation for Autism
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Is testing for body burden of heavy metals like mercury with “urine mobilization tests,” “challenge tests,” “provoked urine tests” just a scam?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Environmental risk factors, meaning non-genetic risk factors, may play a significant role in autism, given the fact that even identical twins that share the same DNA may not share the disease more than half the time. A variety of risk factors have been proposed: “lead, mercury, persistent organic pollutants [like PCBs, or birth] complications might cause a pro-inflammatory state and oxidative damage in the brain.” But, what’s that based on?

You see a lot of correlational studies like this, speculating about “the possibility that one of the hidden agents spurring the rise in autism” is something within the food supply, especially industrialized meat production, particularly poultry. This is based on the fact that the rise in poultry consumption, particularly parental poultry consumption, appears to correlate with the rise in autism. This suggests it’s the “massive contamination of meat” with antibiotics, growth hormones, and toxic pollutants, such as dioxin in the meat.

There’s certainly toxicological issues associated with meat production—not just the pollutants, but the cooked meat carcinogens: leukotoxins. This review in the journal Meat Science came up with a whole list. But, if anything, “[t]he main chronic toxic response of consuming…meat and meat products is [cancer, not autism].” There’s tons of confounding factors that could explain this correlation.

Same thing with fish consumption and autism. In the U.S., on a state-by-state level, “mercury-related fish advisories [were] found to be a surprisingly strong predictor of…autism rates,” suggesting that mercury-contaminated fish was to blame. But, how many people tend to even eat the fish from their own state? That in no way proves a cause-and-effect mercury-autism connection. Why would they even think to make that connection? Well, heavy metals, like mercury and lead, do cause brain damage, and there’s some similarities in terms of the symptoms they can cause. But, you don’t really know, until you put it to the test.

“‘Urine mobilization test,’ ‘challenge test,’ or ‘provoked urine test’ are all terms used to describe the administration of a chelating agent [a heavy metal binding agent] to a person prior to [the] collection of their urine to test [to see the level of heavy metal burden within their bodies].” But, pediatric, public health, and toxicology authorities recommend against the use of these tests, “based on a lack of scientific validation and a lack of demonstrated benefits to the patients”—”usually promoted by alternative practitioners as the basis for recommending, promoting, and selling to the patient questionable and often inappropriate therapies…supposedly aimed at ‘detoxification.'”

“Despite [this disapproval], the tests are still commonly used and recommended by some practitioners.” This is what the results end up looking like. Uh oh, looks like mercury is in the red. “It is easy for uninformed patients and providers to infer that a result that falls in the yellow or red background signifies [heavy metal] poisoning.” But, that’s because they’re not reading the fine print. That reference interval, that normal green range, is the level under non-provoked conditions, meaning normal urine, not urine from someone who was just given a chelating drug to provoke the response, to intentionally grab onto heavy metals in the body and pull them into the urine. That’s like giving someone a drug that raises their heart rate—like a shot of adrenaline, then taking their pulse, and being, “Like wow, you got an abnormally high heart rate!” Compared to other people who just got a shot of adrenaline? No, just compared to a regular resting heart rate. Well, duh. See, “there are no established reference ranges for provoked urine samples;” so, they’re using the wrong reference range. So, we have no idea what the results mean, and given the “potential harm” of whatever treatment the practitioner then tries to sell you on, “these tests should not be utilized.”

Most commonly, that treatment means chronic chelation therapy. A “half…million [people] with autism are subjected to chelation therapy in the US [every year],” despite “no clinical trial evidence” suggesting that there’s any benefit. Why not just give it a try, though? Because there’s potential for side effects, like death. They’re referring to this case, where doctors were like, oops, they just gave the wrong drug. Should have been given edetate calcium disodium, not just straight edetate disodium. But, this may have been “no accident.” That’s exactly what’s recommended by leading chelation proponents. “As such, it would have been surprising only if the practitioner…had not chosen [it].” So, this may “not just be a simple matter of the ‘wrong medication being administered.'” That may just be a distraction from the prospect that the killer was “quackery.”

This is not to say that heavy metals aren’t toxic. It’s just that instead of trying to give people chelation drugs after the fact, we should try to help them not get exposed in the first place. For example, in this study, they compared the blood mercury levels of physicians who ate no fish, to those who ate one or two servings a week, and to those who ate three or more. Here’s where the three or more servings a week group started out. And, after a single chelation drug dose, mercury levels dropped down to here. But, perhaps better to eat less fish, or no fish at all.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Wensbos via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Environmental risk factors, meaning non-genetic risk factors, may play a significant role in autism, given the fact that even identical twins that share the same DNA may not share the disease more than half the time. A variety of risk factors have been proposed: “lead, mercury, persistent organic pollutants [like PCBs, or birth] complications might cause a pro-inflammatory state and oxidative damage in the brain.” But, what’s that based on?

You see a lot of correlational studies like this, speculating about “the possibility that one of the hidden agents spurring the rise in autism” is something within the food supply, especially industrialized meat production, particularly poultry. This is based on the fact that the rise in poultry consumption, particularly parental poultry consumption, appears to correlate with the rise in autism. This suggests it’s the “massive contamination of meat” with antibiotics, growth hormones, and toxic pollutants, such as dioxin in the meat.

There’s certainly toxicological issues associated with meat production—not just the pollutants, but the cooked meat carcinogens: leukotoxins. This review in the journal Meat Science came up with a whole list. But, if anything, “[t]he main chronic toxic response of consuming…meat and meat products is [cancer, not autism].” There’s tons of confounding factors that could explain this correlation.

Same thing with fish consumption and autism. In the U.S., on a state-by-state level, “mercury-related fish advisories [were] found to be a surprisingly strong predictor of…autism rates,” suggesting that mercury-contaminated fish was to blame. But, how many people tend to even eat the fish from their own state? That in no way proves a cause-and-effect mercury-autism connection. Why would they even think to make that connection? Well, heavy metals, like mercury and lead, do cause brain damage, and there’s some similarities in terms of the symptoms they can cause. But, you don’t really know, until you put it to the test.

“‘Urine mobilization test,’ ‘challenge test,’ or ‘provoked urine test’ are all terms used to describe the administration of a chelating agent [a heavy metal binding agent] to a person prior to [the] collection of their urine to test [to see the level of heavy metal burden within their bodies].” But, pediatric, public health, and toxicology authorities recommend against the use of these tests, “based on a lack of scientific validation and a lack of demonstrated benefits to the patients”—”usually promoted by alternative practitioners as the basis for recommending, promoting, and selling to the patient questionable and often inappropriate therapies…supposedly aimed at ‘detoxification.'”

“Despite [this disapproval], the tests are still commonly used and recommended by some practitioners.” This is what the results end up looking like. Uh oh, looks like mercury is in the red. “It is easy for uninformed patients and providers to infer that a result that falls in the yellow or red background signifies [heavy metal] poisoning.” But, that’s because they’re not reading the fine print. That reference interval, that normal green range, is the level under non-provoked conditions, meaning normal urine, not urine from someone who was just given a chelating drug to provoke the response, to intentionally grab onto heavy metals in the body and pull them into the urine. That’s like giving someone a drug that raises their heart rate—like a shot of adrenaline, then taking their pulse, and being, “Like wow, you got an abnormally high heart rate!” Compared to other people who just got a shot of adrenaline? No, just compared to a regular resting heart rate. Well, duh. See, “there are no established reference ranges for provoked urine samples;” so, they’re using the wrong reference range. So, we have no idea what the results mean, and given the “potential harm” of whatever treatment the practitioner then tries to sell you on, “these tests should not be utilized.”

Most commonly, that treatment means chronic chelation therapy. A “half…million [people] with autism are subjected to chelation therapy in the US [every year],” despite “no clinical trial evidence” suggesting that there’s any benefit. Why not just give it a try, though? Because there’s potential for side effects, like death. They’re referring to this case, where doctors were like, oops, they just gave the wrong drug. Should have been given edetate calcium disodium, not just straight edetate disodium. But, this may have been “no accident.” That’s exactly what’s recommended by leading chelation proponents. “As such, it would have been surprising only if the practitioner…had not chosen [it].” So, this may “not just be a simple matter of the ‘wrong medication being administered.'” That may just be a distraction from the prospect that the killer was “quackery.”

This is not to say that heavy metals aren’t toxic. It’s just that instead of trying to give people chelation drugs after the fact, we should try to help them not get exposed in the first place. For example, in this study, they compared the blood mercury levels of physicians who ate no fish, to those who ate one or two servings a week, and to those who ate three or more. Here’s where the three or more servings a week group started out. And, after a single chelation drug dose, mercury levels dropped down to here. But, perhaps better to eat less fish, or no fish at all.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Wensbos via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Doctor's Note

I was looking at our metrics, and it seems our autism videos are relatively unpopular in terms of video views. That surprises me, especially since there’s so much really exciting research out there. Remember my Best Foods for Autism series about broccoli sprouts? I thought that was so wild! Anyway, if there are topics I’m not covering that you’d like me to spend more (or less) time on, let me know. Basically, I just cover whatever I see coming in through the medical literature, but I could make a concerted effort to hunt down info on particular topics of interest (even if there doesn’t happen to necessarily be anything new coming out about it).

More on autism here, for those who are interested:

I have videos coming out on autism pretty regularly. Find all of the latest here.  

And here’s some background on the pros/cons of fish:

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

173 responses to “Heavy Metal Urine Testing & Chelation for Autism

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  1. For the last several years I have been having periodic vertigo, feelings of feinting, added with a rushing sound in my ears and blurring eye sight. I have had cranial cat scans, inner ear tests, upper back, shoulders and neck MRI’s. I have been saying repeatedly that the symptoms come on after I start experiencing mid and lower back pain. My last MRI which is lower than my shoulders showed some Tarlovs cysts, I want an MRI of my lower and mid back to see if there are more there. I read info on the tarlov cysts web site that identifies my symptoms perfectly but I’m still being told that it’s most likely not the cause. What is the real story behind Tarlov Cysts?

    1. If you’re old enough you may recall that swordfish was banned for almost the entire decade of the 1970’s due to high levels of mercury. Under lobbying by the fishing industry, the Reagan administration raised the allowable levels of mercury in swordfish. Bon appetit.

      1. I didn’t know that about swordfish, it’s one of my favorites (I still only eat fish rarely, living in a landlocked state) but I won’t eat it anymore thanks to your information.

        As for why swordfish is so full of mercury, it’s called bio-accumulation. When a little fish ingests a toxin, like mercury, it has no way to process it and excrete it, so the mercury is stored in their body, usually in fat cells. Then a bigger fish eats a thousand of these little fish. Then a swordfish eats a thousand of them. So the swordfish has ingested 1000×1000 little doses of mercury- a million doses!!! Best to eat from the bottom of the food chain, i.e. a plant-based diet.

        I justified consuming swordfish before because I only get it once or twice a year when I travel to the east coast, but now knowing that the current ‘acceptable’ levels are far higher than safe levels, no more. Thank you.

    2. Mercury isn’t just from fish. Babies are born with mercury in their systems from mothers with silver (mercury) fillings in their teeth. Anyone who has amalgam fillings in their mouths have mercury in their bodies. How are we suppose to get rid of it?

      1. Christie, get the fillings replaced ASAP. But incidentally Dr. Greger has a couple videos on here giving some perspective on the amount of mercury in tuna. He gives two examples…. a single can (I believe a regular sized, not one of the really big cans) of tuna has the amount of mercury innit that one would get from having a whole mouth full of metal fillings.
        That same can of tuna has the amount of mercury in it one would get from getting 100 mercury laden vaccine shots!

          1. I eat a tin daily of herring filets with a few dashes of vinegar and a dropper of liquid turmeric and a sprinkling of piperine (black pepper extract)… and about a dozen kalamata olives.

            I’m not overly concerned with mercury from the small fish due to their short time in the ocean. My personal opinion is that my body can handle any small amount of mercury I might come in contact with. I worry more about excess iron than mercury.

            Not trying to convince you… just offering my opinion and eating habits.

          2. Lida, I’m not sure about the mercury content of sardines but I’m sure they have significant amounts and when it comes to animal sources, our bodies readily absorb the heavy metals within them whereas with plants, we don’t absorb the metals with the exception of produce being grown in highly polluted areas, but even then the benefits of the plants seem to negate any negative impact, you can see more about that here: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/cadmium-and-cancer-plant-vs-animal-foods/

            Certain fish are known to hold onto more mercury than others. I imagine sardines have less however I honestly can’t tell you but hopefully someone on here can. In general though, fish is actually very harmful to our health and Dr. Greger has a lot of videos on here as to why that is.

            I can tell you that sardines populations are low causing imbalance to the oceans and devastation to wildlife, some of which you can read about here:http://oceana.org/blog/lack-sardines-leaves-california-sea-lions-starving

            Mercury is a neurotoxin. I wouldn’t worry about excess iron unless you’re getting it from animal sources. Plant foods contain plenty of iron but once we’ve had enough, our bodies developed a mechanism to stop absorption. Our bodies never developed a way to stop absorption of heme iron, though, so it’s possible to get iron toxicity from animal sources.

      1. Fish loss can be remedied. Don’t have the link at hand but they did a test in the Northwest where they seeded the ocean with iron (for the purpose of creating an algae bloom that would soak up carbon dioxide and then sink to the bottom after it died and carrying the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere.)

        It worked quite well and the algae bloom provided a food source for salmon and they had the best salmon run they had had in years. I never heard of any downside but I guess they are still digesting the data.

        1. A dead ocean cannot be remedied. Baby seal cubs starving on the coasts, subjected to predators because their mothers have to leave them to hunt for longer periods of time due to depleted fish populations cannot be remedied (one example among so many of the tragic effects over fishing has on wildlife). There are scientists who believe that the oceans will be completely depleted of fish within many of our lifetimes, that cannot be remedied. The devastating effects on the forests cannot just be remedied either. These things are lasting and eventually it will be too late all together and in so many ways in so many parts of the world, it already is too late. We’re destroying the planet for our greed and constant consumption and disregard for all things other than the immediate self.
          The only way to begin to fix all this, is to stop the cause and change. It is illogical, at best, to believe that something can be fixed while continuing the very actions that broke it in the first place.

          If algae depletion were the cause for a dying ocean and a dying planet, that might be onto something, but it’s man’s irresponsible behavior that is the cause. Now, finding ways in a desperate situation, such as creating an algae bloom, is only meant to help. The only way to SOLVE is to stop the cause in the first place which means reality is going to have to trump people’s desires, preferences, and the personal financial gain of a select few.

          1. S, as usual your heart is in a good place but your head is in the clouds. You are worried about some little smelt while the world is building up for war.

            The reality is that we here make up about .0000000000001 percent of the worlds population. And while about 99% of us here give a nod to your position before going back to our real concerns of ours or our loved one’s health, you are only moving the needle an imperceptible amount.

            All things considered, the world isn’t in too bad a shape. But as we strive to bring the third world up to our standards, we also increase the desires of those populations and as their wealth increases, they fulfill those desires which means the earth’s resources are in higher demand.

            At some point we have to make the choice of do we help our fellow man or our fellow fishes?

            1. Lonie, these are real issues and it might be easy to try to dismiss me by playing the whole “you’re a dreamer/idealist/a real sweet girl” card, but it’s your head that’s in the clouds when it comes to the reality of these things. You’re fixated on believing that which suits you like much of the population.
              I’m worried about all innocent life on the planet and the total health of the planet which man is single handedly destroying. Mankind. with his actions, has become a cancer to the earth and it’s attitudes like yours that created and perpetuate the problem. It might be easy to focus on things that personally impact your immediate self from the place in the world where you stand, while scoffing at the rest, but maybe if you had to be one of the people who live near the Salton Sea or a native of Indonesia or Borneo, or maybe experienced life as a different species entirely, you’d realize that there are MANY horrors going on on the planet. Ironically, while war might be inevitable due to insane, violent terrorists, the horrors that we inflict on this planet and all life on it (including other humans) does not have to be inevitable, it is a choice. It’s a bit hypocritical, too, to have a stance against horrors that might impact you and those you can find it in yourself to relate to, but not mind causing the same kind of pain and suffering of others or rolling your eyes at the notion of caring and doing something about it by simple everyday decisions. It’s also a cop out (and an irrational one at that) to try to dismiss one or many problems by “raising” another problem… what good has that ever done? I believe there are multiple epidemics in this world, they don’t just exist one at a time, but wouldn’t that be nice?
              And if people started caring more about others and changing the “me and me alone or maybe others I can personally relate to, also” mindset, then war and violence would become less likely.

              It’s also absolutely foolish to worry about the health and well being of your loved ones when you’re actually harming them and their future loved ones by such an attitude and irresponsible behaviors. It’s also hypocritical and cruel to worry solely about your loved ones but not the loved ones of others.

              Your claims about the small impact I and others make are not accurate, in reality everything we do counts and the tiniest change has a profound impact on things. Even in environmental science… that smelt you refer to, has a profound and even immeasurable impact on the entire planet and all life on it. The health of fish populations actually goes hand in hand with the health of the forests… that is how incredible nature is.

              “All things considered, the world isn’t in too bad a shape. But as we strive to bring the third world up to our standards, we also increase the desires of those populations and as their wealth increases, they fulfill those desires which means the earth’s resources are in higher demand.”

              As explained above, the fish populations effect everyone, including man. Also, third worlds don’t need to be brought up to “our standards.” Take indigenous peoples of the Amazon, their lives are being ruined and they’ve even been murdered for speaking out as their land is stolen and destroyed to try to make things a little more up to “our standards” over there… That is just one example of so many. Our standards are pretty low, our priorities are massively skewed, and these same standards have caused so much disease and destruction to ourselves, the planet, and all life on it.

              The world is in horrible shape, maybe just not from your perspective looking out your own window.

              Every time major changes have been made, there have always been a large majority of people saying how things will never change and how one person or a few people or even many people cannot possibly make that much of a difference. They’ve been proven wrong in history and so will you, so stay healthy, Lonie! I want you to see it happen.

              1. S, I wish you were a little less passionate and would therefore (presumably) write shorter posts. I’m dividing my time between to forums and if I go line by line I’ll be here for awhile… so forgive me if I cherry pick for my replies.

                I’m worried about all innocent life on the planet and the total health of the planet which man is single handedly destroying.

                I just don’t think you understand how everything is connected. I agree that if everything is allowed to happen “in its own time” great changes can occur. But before that can happen 7 billion people have to be onboard with said changes. Not sure about the numbers but I think I read that humans are some 80,000 years old. That’s a lot of years of habit building.

                It’s also hypocritical and cruel to worry solely about your loved ones but not the loved ones of others.

                I worry about others and their loved ones… about 10%. I worry about my own the other 90%. To me that is not hypocritical… it’s just being human.

                O.K. little teeny boppers probably worry more about their teen idol than their family, but teens aren’t yet human. ‘-)

                Your claims about the small impact I and others make are not accurate, in reality everything we do counts and the tiniest change has a profound impact on things. Even in environmental science… that smelt you refer to, has a profound and even immeasurable impact on the entire planet and all life on it. The health of fish populations actually goes hand in hand with the health of the forests… that is how incredible nature is.

                See, this is the crux of our difference in understanding. You see Nature as a static thing. I see nature as an ever evolving set of mutations and epigentic changes. Sure man can have an impact on your Nature, but man is a part of my nature and the changes are neither good or bad… they are just changes. We will not destroy the earth… we can destroy man but the earth will regenerate to a new nature.

                The world is in horrible shape, maybe just not from your perspective looking out your own window.

                Well, there is a dust storm as we are experiencing 40 mph winds ATM. But still, the house is still standing and only a few shingles have blown off so yeah, things aren’t so bad. ‘-)

                Every time major changes have been made, there have always been a large majority of people saying how things will never change and how one person or a few people or even many people cannot possibly make that much of a difference. They’ve been proven wrong in history and so will you, so …

                Yeah, Ghandi changed things through a movement, as did MLK, but that was because they led large numbers of people who were dissatisfied and were ready to follow their lead. I’m just saying there isn’t that large a number of people dissatisfied with enough things to create a movement.

                stay healthy, Lonie! I want you to see it happen.

                Well, you or someone are going to have to also remain healthy so you can email (or text, but not until I get my Hydrogen Intelligent phone) me when it happens ’cause I got other fish to fry… I mean, to eat. ‘-)

                1. When it comes to such serious issues and such horrific suffering, passion is kind of demanded. It’s an annoying inconvenience to have to debate it, but I’m compelled.

                  I’ll go line by line as well but without quoting you…

                  I’m not sure what you mean by “I just don’t think you understand how everything is connected.” My point is that everything is so intricately connected far beyond what any single one of us can understand. The simplest forms of nature are a brilliant example of this. If you delve even just relatively deep into environmental science, this will become apparent. Scientists studying the environment their entire lives still don’t understand how everything impacts everything else, but one thing is certain, it does. So of course I don’t understand exactly how everything is connected, but I know that it is and have seen just a glimpse of how profoundly connected things actually are when it comes to various topics: biology, environmental science, sociology, etc.

                  “if everything is allowed to happen ‘in its own time’”…. Ok, so your premise is that all atrocities by man will, on their own, just magically correct themselves? This has literally never occurred. Every greatest atrocity by man has had leaders, groups, movements, revolutions, wars even in order to correct them. And the numbers were most always NOT in the favor of the winning side, they had to fight for that.

                  “I worry about others and their loved ones… about 10%. I worry about my own the other 90%. To me that is not hypocritical… it’s just being human.”

                  It’s not hypocritical of you to worry more about your loved ones, but it is hypocritical to put the value of those you personally love, above others, that is to say, to give them the most basic consideration while denying that same consideration for others.
                  Also, I assume based on this and other comments of yours that you’re referring to that other 10% as 10% of the human population but when I say others or others’ loved ones, I am referring to all sentient beings, human and non-human animals alike.

                  “See, this is the crux of our difference in understanding. You see Nature as a static thing. I see nature as an ever evolving set of mutations and epigentic changes. Sure man can have an impact on your Nature, but man is a part of my nature and the changes are neither good or bad… they are just changes. We will not destroy the earth… we can destroy man but the earth will regenerate to a new nature.”

                  No, I see nature as something far beyond even the most researched scientists comprehension. I learn as I go… I see how the tiniest thing influences an entire ecosystem and I am humbled and amazed because it’s amazing and really should be humbling. It’s not really a matter of perspective but a matter of the way things work which we see more and more of as we witness and learn more and more.

                  Man is destroying the planet, man is the only real threat to the planet. Yes, maybe after we kill ourselves off along with so much of the incredible earth and every other single animal on the planet, maybe the earth will regenerate, but that’s supposed to justify destroying the forests that have been here ages before us? Destroying an ocean that has been here since the beginning of time as we understand it? And that’s supposed to justify causing HORRIFIC suffering among other animals and other human beings all for some disgusting set of wrong priorities so someone in his 70 some years of life can feel some false sense of power and live richly for a moment? That’s just disgusting.
                  Further more, the earth has never been so threatened by any species before, it’s not a case of “the earth has regenerated before, it will again,” things are in dire conditions and they are different from anything before. The threats occurring on this planet today are not acts of nature.

                  “Yeah, Ghandi changed things through a movement, as did MLK, but that was because they led large numbers of people who were dissatisfied and were ready to follow their lead. I’m just saying there isn’t that large a number of people dissatisfied with enough things to create a movement.”

                  Lol, maybe not the people you’ve been talking to. You need to go hang out with some animal rights activists… there are incredible amounts. There already is a movement going on, it’s just in its beginning stages.

                  You’ll see it Lonie, even if with a mouth full of fish.

                  1. Scientists studying the environment their entire lives still don’t understand how everything impacts everything else, but one thing is certain, it does. So of course I don’t understand exactly how everything is connected, but I know that it is and have seen just a glimpse of how profoundly connected things actually are when it comes to various topics: biology, environmental science, sociology, etc.

                    I meant you don’t seem able to see the connection between the natural world and mankind, except as man as destroyer of worlds. What about nature as destroyer of man? Hurricanes, floods, earthquakes. You seem to see Nature as benign, a pastoral scene. All very pleasant, until nature becomes a bitch… or bastard if you prefer. (Apoligies to those born out of wedlock.)

                    Also, I assume based on this and other comments of yours that you’re referring to that other 10% as 10% of the human population but when I say others or others’ loved ones, I am referring to all sentient beings, human and non-human animals alike.

                    I assume your friends and family know that you care for them with equal caring you have for a skunk or coyote or rattlesnake? I think I will keep the friends and family at a higher level. ‘-) (Except for a distant cousin… he’s definitely down there in the snake pit.)

                    Man is destroying the planet, man is the only real threat to the planet. Yes, maybe after we kill ourselves off along with so much of the incredible earth and every other single animal on the planet, maybe the earth will regenerate, but that’s supposed to justify destroying the forests that have been here ages before us? Destroying an ocean that has been here since the beginning of time as we understand it?

                    O.K., I’m beginning to suspect you aren’t well versed in Original Nature. See, the earth a very different place in the beginning. Hell, it didn’t even have oxygen or life for the x millions of years.

                    And what about the dinosaurs. There wasn’t Man when they went extinct. NATURE killed the dinosaurs! But just like one group wanted to blame George Bush for everything wrong and then later another group wanted to blame Obama for everything wrong, man has a water tight excuse for not being responsible for killing off the dinosaurs.

                    so someone in his 70 some years of life can feel some false sense of power and live richly for a moment? That’s just disgusting.

                    O.K., I’m going to ask you to kindly stop referring to me as a 70 YO. I am 69 and (… carry the one…add the 8…) 50 months of age. I will NEVER turn 70!

                    Lol, maybe not the people you’ve been talking to. You need to go hang out with some animal rights activists… there are incredible amounts.

                    Well now, let me tell you about the people I hang out with. There is a product called the Hydrogen One. It is a cell phone that can shoot holographics. Yes, that means you can face chat with someone in hologram-like 3-D (or post that way and be viewed by others that way with the added capability.)

                    So how does this tie in with what you and your group are doing? Well, this will make Virtual Reality doable because it doesn’t require the awkward and tethered goggles. This means that more people will adopt VR which means VR business meetings or vacations to exotic places or even family visits of any distance… well, you get the picture (pun intended.) These kinds of tech advances will put less of the pressure on our resources per person than we do currently. Of course, curbing population growth would help a lot.

                    It is my opinion that the people I hang out with will have a much greater impact on the status of nature than the people you hang out with.

                    1. Lonie, this is because mankind does not play a role in the ecosystem. This is from a purely scientific standpoint. We provide no vital role in the ecosystem. Without us, nature would thrive, unlike just about every other single animal species where the opposite is true. So our being here is a privilege. And it is an atrocity to see what we’ve done and continue to do with that privilege.

                      I never said that nature was paradise; I don’t think that if man weren’t here, that snakes and blue birds would cuddle one another beneath rainbows. But every harsh and unfortunate thing that happens in nature, sad as it is, it’s not done out of greed, it’s done out of necessity and nature’s design thus it plays an essential role in the ecosystem. When the lion kills the gazelle, it’s heartbreaking, but when man puts a bullet through an animal then smiles as he lifts their dying or lifeless head for a photo opt, it’s perverse. It not only serves no purpose, it’s actually harmful to the planet. If we had evolved as a part of the ecosystem, we’d be playing some very different roles. We choose to be cruel when it isn’t even necessary and consequently, that choice is extraordinarily destructive to the entire planet, all life on it, and even our own (in more than one way no less).

                      “I assume your friends and family know that you care for them with equal caring you have for a skunk or coyote or rattlesnake?”

                      Would that astound you if I said I felt that the lives of my loved ones were no more important than the lives of orphaned human children, or the lives of your loved ones or the lives of the human victims in Syria? No, you would completely understand that, but you’re coming from a place of speciesism. So back in the day, if I said to someone during a time where racism was the norm, that I did not feel the lives of whites were above that of blacks, people might also be baffled or even appalled.
                      I don’t need to get into details, the point is simply that all sentient life is equal and deserving of the same rights of consideration and it would be hypocritical to believe that those you personally cherish have more of a right to live or be safe or be healthy than anyone else human or non.

                      “O.K., I’m beginning to suspect you aren’t well versed in Original Nature. See, the earth a very different place in the beginning. Hell, it didn’t even have oxygen or life for the x millions of years.
                      And what about the dinosaurs. There wasn’t Man when they went extinct. NATURE killed the dinosaurs! But just like one group wanted to blame George Bush for everything wrong and then later another group wanted to blame Obama for everything wrong, man has a water tight excuse for not being responsible for killing off the dinosaurs.”

                      Ok, first of all, it is RIDICULOUS to compare the multiple horrors on this planet that man is responsible for to what happened to the freaking dinosaurs… Talk about reaching.
                      Acts of nature are one thing…. Volcanoes erupts, earthquakes occur, asteroids fall from the sky… but never has there been such an IMBALANCE in nature… fish being completely depleted, the oceans turning into a plastic wasteland, mass destruction of the earths forests (it was estimated years ago that palm oil alone was responsible for the clearing of something like 300 football fields worth of rainforests per HOUR and that was before palm oil plantations expanded and continue to expand significantly), entire species being wiped off the face of the earth simply due to interferences by man, ….I could go on and on…. These are not NATURAL phenomons, these are not acts of nature, this is not earth redoing itself, this is earth having a parasite; a cancer, and being ripped to shreds from multiple angles and for no other reason that human GREED….

                      To try to exempt our behavior or to try to deflect the first time ever atrocities that our singles species is responsible for by saying “hey man, the earth went through lots of phases” is just at its very best, a cop out.

                      “O.K., I’m going to ask you to kindly stop referring to me as a 70 YO. I am 69 and (… carry the one…add the 8…) 50 months of age. I will NEVER turn 70!”

                      Hahaha, I suspect you know this, but I was not referring to you but rather mankind and using a general amount of years. But that was pretty funny.

                      “It is my opinion that the people I hang out with will have a much greater impact on the status of nature than the people you hang out with.”

                      LOL, if that were true, not for the better. But if you actually looked at what animal agriculture alone does, you’d realize that was far from true. It doesn’t take advanced technology to solve the earth’s problems. In many ways, that’s what started it.
                      I’m also not sure why a hologram would help save the planet. Are you suggesting that people wouldn’t have to go and see each other in person? That sounds absolutely horrible and spiritually and mentally unhealthy. I think that the negative consequences of these kinds of things and overall disconnect in the guise of “connected” have already begun to show in society.

                      “S, forgot to ask the motto of your group. Misanthropy Anonymous? ‘-)”

                      Actually, it’s simply to respect all life…. Now why can you and others who think like you, on the other hand, only conceive caring about one type of life while disregaring all others? Sounds like it’s your way of thinking that carries any kind of true dislike or disregard of others.

                    2. One other thing, Lonie. When you made your remark “I assume your friends and family know that you care for them with equal caring you have for a skunk or coyote or rattlesnake? I think I will keep the friends and family at a higher level.” you were basing that off of your own set of values or rather lack of value that you put on other life. To you, well, skunks and coyotes and rattlesnakes are just not worth much at all so therefore, based on your values rooted in speciesism, saying that man is equal, I must be insulting or degrading the value of human life. That’s why I pointed out how your view is rooted in speciesism. In reality, their lives are worth SO much that it can’t be written in words. In reality, if I could, I would die for every single innocent animal on earth if it meant an end to their suffering. In reality, there is no higher place than the amount of love I have for all innocent life and in reality, there is no higher place as far as worthiness goes than the lives all innocent beings. You’re blinded by your own perception.

                    3. Without us, nature would thrive, unlike just about every other single animal species where the opposite is true. So our being here is a privilege. And it is an atrocity to see what we’ve done and continue to do with that privilege.

                      But don’t you understand? We ARE the natural evolution of our early animal selves. We are still that animal and have evolved to Primary on the food chain. We have evolved into the sentientest of your sentient beings and thus have discovered better ways to hunt our prey. And of course we have outdone our fellow animals to the point where we are the “elephant-in-the-room.”

                      But by your apparent thinking that our evolution is unnatural, I submit that we are natural and that even though it has been changed by our domination nature thrives, albeit in a new way (yes, you are part of that dominating species yourself but you try to absolve yourself from the sins you commit with the rest of us by playing the nature card against the rest of us.)

                      But every harsh and unfortunate thing that happens in nature, sad as it is, it’s not done out of greed, it’s done out of necessity and nature’s design thus it plays an essential role in the ecosystem.
                      S, apparently you rub elbows with a higher class of individuals than I do and thus see things from a greed perspective. The people I am most familiar with don’t civilize nature out of greed but out of the necessity of providing for their families.

                      And I don’t think Nature has a design. Earth is not Gaia… it is not a conscious thing.

                      When the lion kills the gazelle, it’s heartbreaking, but when man puts a bullet through an animal then smiles as he lifts their dying or lifeless head for a photo opt, it’s perverse.

                      Not a big fan of trophy hunting if that was what you were aiming at, but in our photo-happy society I understand taking advantage of the photo op.

                      But again, not something I would do and have no opposition to your being against that. I just wish more of those hunters would transition to hunting with their cameras. A photo of a live animal is much more interesting than one of a dead animal.

                      the oceans turning into a plastic wasteland

                      I hate plastic.

                      I could go on and on….

                      Internal thought: no sh*t
                      Normal voice: Please, do go on (yawn) and on and on and on

                      I’m also not sure why a hologram would help save the planet. Are you suggesting that people wouldn’t have to go and see each other in person? That sounds absolutely horrible and spiritually and mentally unhealthy. I think that the negative consequences of these kinds of things and overall disconnect in the guise of “connected” have already begun to show in society.

                      I carry a flip phone myself.

                      But as you acknowledge, every one else has their phone out looking at the screen, even when sitting at the same table. With the hologram tech, at least they will see a simulation of one another.

                      But my main thinking is that being able to look at wild and untouched-by-man places in a virtual way, fewer people (with the means to do so) will make the trip to those unspoiled places and they will hopefully be spared from becoming tourist spots.

                      And another way tech may help is that we may save more of our planet from tourism because of Galactic Virgin and others preparing to make the moon and space itself into tourist traps. Someone, can’t remember who, is even planning a space hotel.

                      And here’s something to think about… people who live in cities… many of them have never been out of the reach of a street light. How you gonna get em to protect nature when the only nature they know are the trees the city plants in holes in the concrete?

                    4. To you, well, skunks and coyotes and rattlesnakes are just not worth much at all so therefore, based on your values rooted in speciesism, saying that man is equal, I must be insulting or degrading the value of human life. That’s why I pointed out how your view is rooted in speciesism.

                      Some of my favorite video footage ever shot was of a bunch of skunks living under a little storage house in the backyard. At the time there were probably 20 or so cats living here and I would buy cat food by the 50 lb bags. I would scatter this food along the back walkway and after I would go back in the house, the skunks would come out and eat with the cats.

                      I would stand at the back door and video their interactions. They would mock challenge each other from time to time, but never went to blows and the skunks never sprayed. One skunk had 7 babies that would follow her out from under the storage house and cross from there to the walkway in single file. I called them the 7 Little Foys.

                      Coyotes and Bobcats eventually took all the cats and I guess I just quit putting out catfood, so the skunks left.

                      Also had a family of raccoons that stayed around for awhile. I’ve even captured rattlesnakes and carried them off to a pasture and released them.

                      I eventually started killing them out of fear that my mother, alive at the time but not quick thinking or quick moving enough to get out of the way of one if she should walk upon one.

                      So yeah, label me as you will, but I do not regret choosing my mother’s safety over the life of the natural serpent. (If it was so damned sentient, how come it didn’t know better than to invade my space?)

                      In reality, if I could, I would die for every single innocent animal on earth if it meant an end to their suffering. In reality, there is no higher place than the amount of love I have for all innocent life and in reality, there is no higher place as far as worthiness goes than the lives all innocent beings.

                      I hope that statement is just hyperbole. Otherwise I would assign you to the same category as I put anyone who would desecrate their own body with tattoos. Martyrdom is a dying fashion. ‘-)

                      As for me, I almost walked upon a rattlesnake a year or so ago and was so close to stepping on the non-rattling rattler that I was so startled I started walking backwards and speaking in tongues. I guess it was tongues because I did not understand a word I said.

                      I went to get my gun to shoot the silent killer but it had hidden by the time I got back. The reason I would have killed it is because we have been invaded by a species, the Mojave rattler that doesn’t rattle and has a neurotoxin type of poison. Same goes for babies of our local species, whereas the older snakes’ poison becomes primarily a hemotoxin.

                      I know the California flag motto says “Don’t tread on me.” But my personal motto says “Don’t get underfoot.”

                    5. Just to be clear, the reference to the Cali flag does not mean I live in any of the three future Californias.

                    6. “But don’t you understand? We ARE the natural evolution of our early animal selves. We are still that animal and have evolved to Primary on the food chain.”

                      What we evolved into based on our modern behavior is a parasite to this planet; the only real threat to the entire planet and all life on it. Just because something exists from nature, does not make it natural. Lead is a part of nature, but the amounts of lead in the environment are unnatural and due to human interference.

                      All this conversation can be cut short in simply acknowledging the fact that our actions are incredibly destructive, they cause unbearable suffering, and are devastatingly unsustainable and even the greatest threat to even our most immediate selves in a plethora of ways.

                      “We have evolved into the sentientest of your sentient beings”

                      Ok, again, you’re coming from a complete bias, your OPINION on you being somehow “more sentient” than other animals is based on your own speciesism and perspective from that speciesist stance. It is truly no different than when whites once believed they were “the sentiientest” of all men… Although I know that will sound offensive to some still thinking in the way you are and just don’t understand.

                      “and thus have discovered better ways to hunt our prey. And of course we have outdone our fellow animals to the point where we are the ‘elephant-in-the-room.’”

                      No. We were smart enough to develop tools and learn to work with fire… yay us. Might does not equal right. If anything there is a MASSIVE flaw with our own sentience in that we seemed to have developed to be smart in the way of making tools and the like, but NOT smart enough to be responsible with them… Now if I didn’t believe in the more spiritual aspects of things, I’d blame that one on a glitch in evolution.

                      First, they’re not “our prey,” we are not biologically designed to consume them. And we’re not the elephant in the room, we’re the cancer in it as our unnatural behavior makes us so.

                      We’re also lacking in enough intelligence to actually take care of OURSELVES. Too dumb to abstain from gluttony? You don’t see other animals getting heart disease because they insist on diets they’re not meant for.

                      You’re trying to justify cancer from the cancer’s perspective. But even that is illogical at best. If something can’t even continue to thrive because it’s actions are its own demise, even if you want to argue that it’s natural, that doesn’t make it intelligent or good.

                      And I’m not calling human beings cancer… I’m calling our behavior like that of cancer.

                      “S, apparently you rub elbows with a higher class of individuals than I do and thus see things from a greed perspective. The people I am most familiar with don’t civilize nature out of greed but out of the necessity of providing for their families.”

                      No, I highly doubt that I do. But it doesn’t take a rich person to be greedy nor does it take a person who knows those in power to observe man’s behavior. All you need to know is how the world works. And providing for one’s family? No, more like predisposing one’s family to disease because of preferring to eat in a way which people have become addicted to even when given some insight. It’s much cheaper to eat beans than meat. The “hunters” I know spend more money on equipment than it would take them to buy flesh from the grocery store or actual healthful foods.
                      And this really is neither here nor there, but your whole necessity spiel in those stricken with poverty is blown by a few statistics, like the fact that the majority of smokers come from low income homes. I know some very poor people who spend more money on cigarettes than I could justify spending on food.

                      “And I don’t think Nature has a design. Earth is not Gaia… it is not a conscious thing.”

                      Perspective and philosophy. But something doesn’t have to be conscious to have a design. I mean that’s ridiculous… Everything has a design. A tree, a rock, a body of water, a finger nail… To suggest earth does not have a design goes to show how little you understand it. The ecosystem is brilliant and intricate and essential for all things.

                      “Not a big fan of trophy hunting if that was what you were aiming at, but in our photo-happy society I understand taking advantage of the photo op.”

                      Actually I was referring to all “hunting.” In my experience, those “hunting for food” are no less inclined to take a photo and get off on the kill or injury and kill more than they could even possibly eat no less.

                      But let’s take a general look at the hunting style of Native Americans in history… when they did hunt, they did so out of what was perceived as or perhaps was to some extent at that time, necessity, it wasn’t a game or a sport to them. One particular chief had said how important it was to teach their children that when they had to cut down a tree or hunt an animal, that it should be done with SORROW, never joy.
                      The fact that there are people who even if they believe they need to kill for food, would get joy out of it and celebrate it and believe that that is ok, just goes to show how warped mankind is.

                      I agree with the photography and find that an admirable thing.

                      “I could go on and on….
                      Internal thought: no sh*t”

                      LOL, that was funny. But let’s get real, you’re just as relentless as I am… Didn’t you say your father told you as much? I feel compelled for those who can’t speak for themselves, so I’m willing to be annoying, and even bore and inconvenience myself for them.

                      “Someone, can’t remember who, is even planning a space hotel.”

                      Like I said, cancer… growth for the sake of growth even to its own demise.

                      “And here’s something to think about… people who live in cities… many of them have never been out of the reach of a street light. How you gonna get em to protect nature when the only nature they know are the trees the city plants in holes in the concrete?”

                      Plant more trees? Education, I would say. It’s not like there’s not already abundant ways to experience nature without actually being there. I’m also sure many environmentalists come from cities. But I would say the answer to that is humans getting their priorities straight.
                      Of course I’m not trying to argue against holograms, I don’t really care… Although I do have some opinions (how surprising) but I’m trying to talk LESS here.

                      “So yeah, label me as you will, but I do not regret choosing my mother’s safety over the life of the natural serpent. (If it was so damned sentient, how come it didn’t know better than to invade my space?)”

                      DEAR GOD MAN… can you step like TWO SECONDS out of your own perspective? You were in HIS space… did you consider that? Humans have every ability to coexist with the nature we’re surrounded by. If you can develop tools to do horrible things with, I promise you Lonie, you’re smart enough to keep your mother safe without going on a snake killing spree.

                      “I hope that statement is just hyperbole. Otherwise I would assign you to the same category as I put anyone who would desecrate their own body with tattoos. Martyrdom is a dying fashion.”

                      Fashion is for those without style… But seriously, I couldn’t be more serious about that (not my best sentence, but it will do). If you would consider this a negative quality, I’m perfectly fine with that… I’m not trying to impress you here… however, keep in mind that you would then have to consider it a negative quality in anyone who has or does or will put the lives of others before their own. And that sir, is a bit hypocritical because if it weren’t for people like that, you and I wouldn’t even be here. Furthermore, there are plenty of mothers who would die for their children and plenty of other people who would die for any number of their loved ones, is that a dying fashion as well?

                      “The reason I would have killed it is because we have been invaded by a species”

                      The only time there’s ever been an imbalance in nature, has been due to man’s interference. If truly there was any kind of uncontrolled population of this species you’re referring to, it’s due to man’s actions. Deforestation, killing off top predators, and so many other various imbalances in the ecosystem we cause.

                      Still though, again, the most dangerous thing to all life on this planet and the most truly out of hand species, is humans – if we’re going be scientific about it as opposed biased. And once more, it’s human error that causes imbalance among other animals. Unfortunately, we fail to see these things as error. Our priorities are that for our own immediate gain or seeming gain, therefore, how could anything that fulfills someone’s personal desire or need be an error… Warped perception… and God are we warped.

                    7. S, in reading your last comments, I don’t find a lot that requires a response as I’ve already countered most of what you’ve said.

                      I’ve decided that instead of trying to reason with you, I will offer you hope instead by breaking my own NDA and offering you a glimpse into a movie I’ve outlined in my head and hope to make in a few years, after I’ve made some lesser ones to establish myself.

                      I wish this site had Private Messaging so I wouldn’t have to put this rebuttal of your cynicism in the public domain. But I imagine few still come back to this thread and have moved on to the new videos so maybe the audience will be small or even none at all.

                      Without giving too much away, I will say the story involves an almost old fashioned cattle drive from one area of country to another area, for desiccation before shipment on sail powered trade ships. The world as we know it has changed drastically. I won’t go into how, even though I have a perfectly plausible explanation and it will be by Nature’s hand, but that will not be the point of the story.

                      As you might guess the story will be about people and how they recover from this monumental world-wide disaster. And you might find it ironic that I started by saying this measured decimation of living things, plants, animals… everything, will give you hope. But I say that because by starting over with knowledge of where we went wrong, we have the opportunity to get it right as those who are left, recover.

                      And that’s where you and I differ. You place the problem with collective Man not acting properly (by your standards) while I see the problem in general as the collective Man being too damn big.

                      I do recognize that we wouldn’t be where we are in our knowledge of all things, including our health, without the large world population that has in turn turned out a large number of scientists. Sure, some of them work on iPhones or Samsung phones (but some are also working on the Hydrogen 1 phones I’ve alluded to that will actually create ways to cut down on our carbon footprint, I believe. And you would love the man behind it all, Jim Jannard as he is a promoter of protecting wildlife through his wife getting him involved.) But large numbers of those scientists are giving us as individuals the knowledge to live in a more economical way (vertical farming for instance) and thus (hopefully) by doing so, help a little to stem the tide of increasing land use for the purpose of supporting a growing population.

                      And while my focus is people I know first, nature second, I think I do my part for nature by eating sparingly and maintaining nutrition through supplementation, collecting my excrement and expensive urine to use as fertilizer for my trees (my trees are very healthy from this practice which leads me to believe I too am healthy as I ate and drank the makings of this stuff ‘-) and generally just having a small carbon foot print on the earth (I’ve had led lights for over a decade.)

                      I know you think a movement will be what changes everything. Don’t stop thinking that way because it can make a difference, just not as big a difference as Nature itself will one day unleash.

                    8. As an afterthought I remember some years ago when I had C-band satellite and could get PBS without a subscription, there was a Claymation program on done by London Weekend Television, I think was the producers, called Wind in the Willows.

                      S, I think that show did more for the idea of animals being “sentient” than just saying it. They were actually put in human surroundings and lived much like humans would. That is, Toad inherited a fine estate from his father and would certainly have lost it all to the Weasels had he not been watched over by wise old Badger. The main characters other than those two were Ratty and Moley and of course, the Weasels.

                      One episode that sort of deviated from the rest was one where barking dogs and bugles were heard and Ratty I think exclaimed “Man in the woods. Everyone hide!” Of course it was a riding to the hounds fox hunt. But I think it was Ratty that was “killed” and IIRC, a Centaur brought him to an island in the woods and he awoke unharmed.

                      I recommend if you ever get a chance to watch this London Weekend Television series that you do. It affected me so much that I would later think if I ever became a wealthy person, I would buy the rights to that series and provide it free of charge to every elementary school any where in the world.

                      It had a quality of story that I felt would have a teaching effect, especially with young children about dealing with everyday events we encounter as humans, and yes, “humanize” animals.

                      All the best to you.

                    9. You’re not trying to “reason” with me, you’re trying to defend your point and I’ve explained why your point of view on these matters is so incredibly flawed. You’re basing your argument on your own perspective which is rooted in speciesism. The truth is, there is no reasoning with you on this type of matter, I’m sure you’d say the same for me but only one of us is right. You haven’t countered what I’ve said at all, not in the least, but you’ll continue to believe so and I’ll continue in my stance, so I’m sure there’s a word for where we’re at… stand still or something? Definitely the point to just agree that we’ll always disagree on these subjects.

                      Couple of relatively quick comments…

                      It’s not cynicism, it’s reality. Being realistic and accepting reality does not make one cynical and if it did, then thank God for the “cynics.” No offense Lonie but I’m really not interested in your movie ideas or holograms or whatever else. I’ve seen many documentaries, read more things than I could begin count, I have a file so full of saved articles and links, etc. that it’s overwhelming and I have to dedicate time to organize it, and I’ve witnessed so much and seen so many videos, investigations and so on and learned from many experienced individuals and groups. So thank you, but no thank you.

                      “man not acting properly (by your standards)”

                      No, not by “my standrads,” by logic’s standards, by the victims’ standards (which even includes humans), by the general standards of human society blunted by their hypocrisy, I could go on and elaborate but for the God, I wont….

                      Led lights, etc. pale in comparison to the carbon footprint of participating in animal agriculture causes you to have but I don’t believe any amount of documentation would have you concede to this because your mind is made up on an ideal you’d prefer to have, not open to learning… not on this subject.

                      A movement is happening and necessary and certainly I’ll always know this, but it isn’t just to save the planet, it’s most immediately to end the vast holocaust expanding throughout it courtesy of mankind; it’s to first stop the unbearable demonic torture, slavery, and massacres.. this includes not only animal agriculture but the horrific impact on wildlife as well as the exploitation, enslavement and murder of wildlife and all animals for all kinds of human derived reason – it coincides with saving the planet… These things are all connected.

                      Nature is no doubt more powerful than any of us, but you wouldn’t like to see what it would have to unleash in order to fix everything… I assume in this scenario you’re envisioning, it’s not occurring in your lifetime so you seem ok with it.

                      I personally don’t see how an animated series putting non-human animals in the place of humans does much to teach about the sentience of animals. Sure animated movies and shows can definitely be effective in this way in children but depicting animals in their more natural state is a far more effective way because it gives a voice to animals being animals as opposed to wearing clothes and essentially being humans. So thinkgs like Bambi, The Fox And The Hound, The Wild Thornberries, Charlotte’s Webb, etc. Sadly in any case, while no doubt it helps, most children seem to abandon their natural and even learned empathy and sense for and about other animals into adult hood thanks to the pretty powerful indoctrination we’ve all been victims to. I’d say all that is extremely good and important but not enough.

                      Seems good of you to want to provide something that could teach kids about animal sentience if you had the means, but is somewhat perplexing considering you too are so disconnected with non-human animal sentience and equality.

                      The best to you as well, hopefully we can avoid these types of subjects in the future. I think it’s pretty clear where we both stand and I know I wouldn’t waver and don’t believe you would either so that is that.

                    1. I have to post in two or more parts because it’s either a glitch or I’m prevented from leaving a long response….

                      You’re not trying to “reason” with me, you’re trying to defend your point and I’ve explained why your point of view on these matters is so incredibly flawed. You’re basing your argument on your own perspective which is rooted in speciesism. The truth is, there is no reasoning with you on this type of matter, I’m sure you’d say the same for me but only one of us is right. You haven’t countered what I’ve said at all, not in the least, but you’ll continue to believe so and I’ll continue in my stance, so I’m sure there’s a word for where we’re at… stand still or something? Definitely the point to just agree that we’ll always disagree on these subjects.

                      Couple of relatively quick comments…

                      It’s not cynicism, it’s reality. Being realistic and accepting reality does not make one cynical and if it did, then thank God for the “cynics.” No offense Lonie but I’m really not interested in your movie ideas or holograms or whatever else. I’ve seen many documentaries, read more things than I could begin count, I have a file so full of saved articles and links, etc. that it’s overwhelming and I have to dedicate time to organize it, and I’ve witnessed so much and seen so many videos, investigations and so on and learned from many experienced individuals and groups. So thank you, but no thank you.
                      “man not acting properly (by your standards)”

                      No, not by “my standrads,” by logic’s standards, by the victims’ standards (which even includes humans), by the general standards of human society blunted by their hypocrisy, I could go on and elaborate but for the God, I wont….

                      Led lights, etc. pale in comparison to the carbon footprint of participating in animal agriculture causes you to have but I don’t believe any amount of documentation would have you concede to this because your mind is made up on an ideal you’d prefer to have, not open to learning… not on this subject.

                      A movement is happening and necessary and certainly I’ll always know this, but it isn’t just to save the planet, it’s most immediately to end the vast holocaust expanding throughout it courtesy of mankind; it’s to first stop the unbearable demonic torture, slavery, and massacres.. this includes not only animal agriculture but the horrific impact on wildlife as well as the exploitation, enslavement and murder of wildlife and all animals for all kinds of human derived reason – it coincides with saving the planet… These things are all connected.

                      Nature is no doubt more powerful than any of us, but you wouldn’t like to see what it would have to unleash in order to fix everything… I assume in this scenario you’re envisioning, it’s not occurring in your lifetime so you seem ok with it.

                    2. I personally don’t see how an animated series putting non-human animals in the place of humans does much to teach about the sentience of animals. Sure animated movies and shows can definitely be effective in this way in children but depicting animals in their more natural state is a far more effective way because it gives a voice to animals being animals as opposed to wearing clothes and essentially being humans. So thinkgs like Bambi, The Fox And The Hound, The Wild Thornberries, Charlotte’s Webb, etc. Sadly in any case, while no doubt it helps, most children seem to abandon their natural and even learned empathy and sense for and about other animals into adult hood thanks to the pretty powerful indoctrination we’ve all been victims to. I’d say all that is extremely good and important but not enough.

                      Seems good of you to want to provide something that could teach kids about animal sentience if you had the means, but is somewhat perplexing considering you too are so disconnected with non-human animal sentience and equality.

                      The best to you as well, hopefully we can avoid these types of subjects in the future. I think it’s pretty clear where we both stand and I know I wouldn’t waver and don’t believe you would either so that is that.

                    3. It’s ridiculous you’d accuse me of “brainwashing” a child on Facebook… how strange. I’m not on Facebook right now so I’m not even bothering to look but there are many children who don’t want to eat animals, in fact, children are typically very upset upon learning where meat comes from. They’re even lied to about it until an “appropriate” age and then they have to go through lectures about why they shouldn’t be upset and why they need to eat it… they’re actually brainwashed TO disconnect, what you’re suggesting is brainwashing is quite the opposite, it’s letting a child think and be.

                      I wish you wouldn’t bring up MORE conversations about animal rights and our very different sides because I really don’t want to blow up these boards with this, but as I’ve said, I will not be silent if you say something about ignorant about the animals who do not have a voice.

                    4. It’s ridiculous you’d accuse me of “brainwashing” a child on Facebook… how strange. I’m not on Facebook right now so I’m not even bothering to look but there are many children who don’t want to eat animals, in fact, children are typically very upset upon learning where meat comes from. They’re even lied to about it until an “appropriate” age and then they have to go through lectures about why they shouldn’t be upset and why they need to eat it… they’re actually brainwashed TO disconnect, what you’re suggesting is brainwashing is quite the opposite, it’s letting a child think and be.

                      This is kinda weird (not you, at least not in this case.’-)

                      I just saw this cute little girl telling her momma she wouldn’t eat meat and thought you would get a kick out of it as I did. As it turns out, you were posting a scathing repudiation of my comments at the same time, which threw me as I thought those were old thoughts I was reading.

                      Anyway, the “brainwashing” comment was meant as a joke. I hope other vegans watch the video and are able to enjoy it in the spirit it was linked to.

                      Lonie out…

                    5. Ahh ok, my apologies then! I didn’t catch on. I’ll check out the video. I guess I was in serious mode as I was replying to your last comment at the same time. Lol, sorry about that… I should have caught on.

                    6. *Ahh ok, my apologies then! I didn’t catch on. I’ll check out the video. I guess I was in serious mode as I was replying to your last comment at the same time * Looks like I forgot to put my smiley emoticon :) at the end, so I guess I share part of the blame.

  2. I’ve started my day with your website for about six years. Thank you for your dedication and hard work. I’m curious if crop desiccation has an impact on our health? Is there enough glyphosate on wheat, oats, split peas, lentils, and other produce to affect our health and what would that affect be?

  3. I’m a bit confused by the part where the mercury levels were high after the chelation treatment. Doesn’t that infer that the chelation treatment was working?

    I’m personally not going to do the chelation treatment referenced, but if I had some terrible health problem and thought it would help I certainly would.

    Also, I am under the impression that Vitamin C is somewhat of a chelator, so for maintenance, I’ll stick with that.

      1. Yeah, good point. I wasn’t aware that was a chelator until reading it either in this comments section or under another of the videos.

        I once was on a very good garlic program. I would preserve cloves in coconut oil (kept them fresh) and would slice them up to expose them to the air, onto a small cup of apple sauce. Eating them quickly with the apple sauce made them quite palatable.

        I don’t recall how or when I drifted away from that regimen. I’ve actually got some garlic in those netted sleeves in a store room that has dried out. I’m guessing I can powder that and still get some use from it but intend to re-instate my fresh garlic regimen.

        Thanks for reminding me.

  4. The last chart shows that chelation does work even after a single dose. So if someone does have high mercury levels, shouldn’t they chelate? As well as stopping the fish?

    Will the body naturally chelate the mercury or does it bioaccumulate?

    Anybody out there know? Can the liver and kidney actually process heavy metals effectively on their own?

    1. It does bio-accumulate. Heavy metals and other toxins are stored in fat cells because your body can’t process them into something less toxic to excrete. A little bit is excreted here and there, yes, but not much. I think the problem with drug-induced chelation is that it forces the body to suddenly excrete more toxins than the liver and kidneys can handle at once- you are dumping a huge load of poison on them when normally they only have to deal with a little bit from small exposures occasionally. I agree with the video that reducing further exposure is better than trying to force it out of you. I don’t know anything about natural chelation with diet. I would love Dr. Greger to do a video about it, but if there’s anything I’ve learned from this site, I suspect the best way is probably to eat a whole-foods plant-based diet ;)

    2. I am going to pre-guess broccoli sprouts.

      They tested broccoli on animals to protect against fatty liver: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26865652

      They also tested pomegranate juice: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27717115

      And onion: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29371773

      And garlic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27785721

      Pineapple vinegar (whatever that is) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25699088
      Oh, it is fermented pineapple

      Dandelion leaf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23256442

      Also soy, cacao, turmeric, fenugreek, grapes, amla

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22119904

      With soy, they say “fermented” was tested https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24058369

      These aren’t “detox” per say, they are protective against toxicity foods

      Milk Thistle is what the vitamin stores sell, but I don’t trust the supplements and I don’t know where to buy milk thistle outside of a supplement.

      Green tea had mixed results.

      For actual detox, they said that the studies aren’t big enough. Coriander is one thing they list. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25522674/

      Huffington Post has an article.

      https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-greenfield/is-detoxing-really-a-myth_b_6385924.html

      “While your body does actually have detoxification organs (your liver and kidney) that can process many of these chemicals and toxins, they can potentially cause medical problems if your liver and kidneys are not functioning properly or are overburdened with a poor diet.” from

      “But in order for this liver detoxification to work properly, your body must have adequate nutrients. If not, the phase 1 and phase 2 processes may not work adequately, which can leave toxic substances to build up in your body.”

      They give a list of things in the article, but they include animal products and don’t add on any discussion about WFPB, so I don’t really trust them to be up to date.

      I would think MAYBE it MIGHT be like the Pancreas in the Diabetics where Dr. Barnard got the fat out and the Pancreas started working better.

      That is just a hunch.

      Just looked up Dr. Greger’s fatty liver disease:
      Lowering fructose – but KEEPING fruit https://nutritionfacts.org/video/if-fructose-is-bad-what-about-fruit/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/prevent-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease/

    3. Bob, I can’t remember which it is (maybe someone else here will), but Dr. Greger actually has a video which somewhere within it, it shows that people eating a healthier, plant based diet do naturally decrease their heavy metal load. A lot of plant foods seem to have an effect both in detoxification as well as protection against accumulation in the first place.
      It seems they are lacking human studies for things like cilantro where it showed a powerful chelation potential in rats… going on memory.

  5. I am not aboard with the heart rate drug analogy. Doesn’t the chelation drug force the body’s cells to release metals into the urine that otherwise would be sequestered within the body? How is that a bad thing and how is it not indicative of heavy metal contamination?

    1. I’m going to take a shot at this: Imagine that 100 patients submitted urine samples for testing. Fifty took a Chelation drug prior to providing the sample and 50 did not. I think it would be a better test if you compared the heavy metal levels with a “standard normal range” that was from the same class. In other words, draw charts for the 50 who had the chelation drug and then determine which patients had high or low metal concentrations compared to that green normal range. It is not fair to compare them against the green “normal” range that did not have the drug. Does that make sense?

      Now I’m not so sure either, but I think it does.

      BTW, the robot checker is a pain in the wazoo.

  6. HEY! WARN PEOPLE WOULD YA!

    I started eating black pepper because you said it would help prevent cancer. At first my body said, Hey I want this stuff.

    I increased the amount of Pine Nuts I eat because you said it might reverse arterial plaque.

    Then I developed extremely painful kidney stones from all the oxalic acid in those foods and also the tomatoes, collard greens. kale,
    etc that I eat.

    I’m okay now. A endocrinologist once told me that B6 and Magnesium break up kidney stones so I’ll increase the Magnesium Gluconate
    and drink a lot more water.

    But I wish you had warned me when you recommended those foods.

    1. I don’t recall Dr Greger recommending pine nuts.. or mentioning them for that matter, but I havent seen all the videos at this site. Walnuts however are discussed often https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/walnuts/
      Black pepper was recommended to boost tumeric’s efficacy. Here’s an article that might be of interest https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/02/05/why-pepper-boosts-turmeric-blood-levels/

      As to the accumulation of kidney stones, Dr Greger offers this video on how wfpb eating helps, and how animal protein consumption markedly increases the risk for stones. Take a look https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-prevent-kidney-stones-with-diet/ Hope this helps

      1. rob

        In the article titled “How Healthy is the Mediterranean Diet” Dr Greger states (paraphrasing) nuts were shown to stabilize/reverse arterial plaque”. I posted to ask “Which Nuts”. But there was no answer. (And there was no warning that many nuts are high in Oxalic Acid.)

        I specifically recall reading/video that black pepper and cardamon helped prevent cancer. (But there was no warning that Black Pepper and Cardamom are both quite high in Oxalic Acid.)

        I also recall reading/video that Sesame seeds and Turmeric reduce arthritis pain. But I was already eating Tahini for its high copper content and getting very good relief from arthritis pain, so I haven’t tried Turmeric.

        Thank you for the link re animal protein and kidney stones. I agree animal foods should be limited. When I was eating 2 1/2 lbs of standard roast beef per day I got osteoporosis and had sand and gravel in my urine. But now that I am eating 4 – 8 oz of 100% grass fed cooked on low heat beef and four eggs per day, I have been REGAINING BONE MASS and have improved to osteopenia. So I doubt the amount of animal protein I now am eating is causing problems with my bones or causing kidney stones. What I have done is somewhat cut down the amount of Calcium Carbonate I take so less gets into my urine.

      2. rob, he actually does mention pine nuts in at least one video! It was when comparing antioxidant contents of nuts and pine nuts came out to be the lowest in antioxidant content, I believe. I don’t recall him recommending them though. I’m sure they’re fine, but I’d personally opt for sunflower seeds, pumpkin, hemp, etc. considering the low antioxidants.

    2. Sydney, Dr. Greger does talk about oxalis acid and explains that it doesn’t always have an impact, like in the case of cinnamon, but with turmeric he tecvomends not consuming more than a teaspoon s day if you’re prone to kidney stones.

      Why only blame the plant foods though. You consume meat and eggs, correct? I’m no expert but phosphates can cause them based on my brief understanding. Phosphoric acid while high in plants is not very bioavailable whereas we can get too much from animal sources as well as from foods/drinks with added phosphate.
      Also, animal protein (“beef,” “pork,” eggs, cheese and fish as listed on webmd) is linked to stones as well as high sodium levels.

      My diet is literally built up of crucifers, spices, cacao, nuts, etc, etc… ascare sommany others trying to eat healthy or on a WFPB diet. There doesn’t seem to be a trend of kidney stones among people eating this way. But I’m not claiming that those prone don’t have to worry… I’m far from an expert on kidney stones. Just weighing in.

        1. Mercury (dealing with communication) is still retrograde. Will go direct on Sunday the 15th. Meanwhile, typos are the norm. :-)

  7. The PBS show, last night, was on a man who had believed eating fish would make him healthier and he ate over 700 fish in one year, because of the environmental impact on farming and he also believed it would be healthier.

    I didn’t see the whole show, but I saw the end, where he went to the doctor and there was no difference in cholesterol and no real change in any category and his doctor told him that he was likely at the same level of healthiness as the year before.

    They didn’t test the man for mercury, but he is the person I would like a test on.

    I contrast that to lab test scenes after just a few months depicted in “Eating You Alive” and I laugh, because the fish-eater got so discouraged that he went to a diner and ate a hamburger.

    Laughing, because people who go WFPB and get healed of their diseases aren’t gonna be going out for a “discouragement hamburger.”

    1. “because of the environmental impact on farming” ….yet overfishing is just as devastating to the environment and one of the biggest epidemics on the planet! Come on people, just eat a damn carrot! It’s not that hard…. once you cook it! (a joke).

  8. in response to the “doctor’s note”, i just want to put in my vote for more videos on autism. it is not only personally relevant to my family, but also highly controversial, with a lot of pseudoscience, just plain bad science, and pure speculation, which needs to be replaced with strong research and Dr. Greger’s style of straightforward reporting on what the evidence actually means, and what it does not. autism is one of those topics that is not relevant to everyone, but for those personally affected by it, newer and especially better quality information is desperately needed. please never give up on such topics due simply to viewing metrics.

    1. I’m not personally affected by autism but I still throw in my vote. A very important issue that I agree needs more light shed on and real science. I’d also love to see more on heavy metal chelation through natural whole plant foods.

  9. What about the Andrew Cutler protocol? Unfortunately, this chelatation treatment has not put to the test. It seems to me it is theorethically established way of chelation.
    “Further research is needed into the actions of ALA as
    a chelator—in particular investigation of frequent low dose chelation as suggested by Cutler (1999). Although
    not a peer reviewed publication, Cutler makes a plausible argument regarding the frequency of chelator dosing
    which merits the attention of the scientific community” (p. 150)
    http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X07001096?via%3Dihub

  10. In the intro to this topic you suggested viewers submit topics they’d like to see covered. I’d like to know more about grieving and depression, and whether food choices can affect the syndrome. Thanks.

    1. I’d like to know Dr. Greger’s take on cultured meat, such as cleanmeat.org, et alibi. The site boasts that this technology is “poised to revolutionize the global food system.” Hmmmm.

      Where do you think this Nextgen protein source is going? And do you think this will cause you to rewrite some of your positions on animal products and their adverse impact on human health?

      If this topic has already been addressed, please refer me to a page or video. Thanks.

      drc

    2. Hi I’m a RN health support volunteer with NF. Thanks for your great question.
      Here is a link to some information Dr. Greger has done on depression:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/?fwp_search=depression&fwp_content_type=video
      https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/depression/

      Another good place for plant based information is the Physician’s Committee for Responsible Medicine. I saw they have some info on depression as well:
      http://www.pcrm.org/solr/depression

      Dr. McDougall, a mentor of Dr. Greger’s, also has some information you might find useful:
      https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/videos/mcdougalls-moments/depression/
      https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/hot-topics/medical-topics/depression-mental-disorders/

      Hope that helps.
      NurseKelly

  11. Mercury ,Lead and Aluminium are all toxic to the body and none should be present.Giving Vaccines with Hg or Al to children before the blood brain barrier is closed,around 3years of age, means they enter the brain ,where they are neurotoxic. After this time the gut and Liver can act as barriers to the uptake of these metals and excrete them through the bowel and kidneys. Without chelation, accumulated heavy metals can take a long time to be excreted by normal body detoxification.Some people are unfortunate and do not have the proper liver enzyme for detoxing and may show very little in their urine until the challenge test is carried out.Properly done the use of detox agents, like DMSA ,are very effective and non lethal.Remember many prescription medicines are lethal if not used properly or the Practitioner forgets the toxic interaction it will have with another remedy already prescribed. Do not throw the baby out with the bathwater!!

      1. That all looks good Rob but are the metals really coming out of the blood stream? How would that happen? Probably coming out of the fat tissue. (Which is good of course anyway). But chelators are supposed to take them out of the blood.

        1. Well we do sweat out toxins… I have no idea how it actually all works, but I know that much. It doesn’t sound too implausible to me, but it does sound relaxing! Would be interesting to learn more about it. I don’t believe sweating has an actual impact on fat, though, so I don’t think it would have anything to do with fatty tissue.

          1. So, seems there is definitely something through chelation via sweating. Makes sense to me. I just came across these 3 studies in particular which I thought I should share here…

            Methamphetamine exposure and chronic illness in police officers: significant improvement with sauna-based detoxification therapy:

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22089658

            Chemical sensitivity after intoxication at work with solvents: response to sauna therapy:

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9553837

            Arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury in sweat: a systematic review:

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22505948

      2. Rob, that’s a great link. About as detailed as one could ask for concerning detoxing from heavy metals.

        Reminds me of something told to me by a friend who had taken a mineral bath at Hot Springs, Arkansas.

        At the time he was a smoker and said that in the warm mineral bath he claimed he could see the nicotine being “sweated” out of his body and into the water around him. I didn’t pay him much attention at the time but after reading the above linked-to article, he may have been on to something.

  12. I wonder what was the Chelation agent they used in the study (referenced in the above video at the end)? It sure looked effective. Why doesn’t the good doctor recommend using it? Is he afraid people will figure they can eat as much fish as they want if they take the chelator?

    I very rarely eat fish but I can’t insist that the rest of my family and friends don’t.

    I think glutathione might be all ya really need to detox, as long as your liver is otherwise healthy (and you are over three years old).

    But this all begs the question again? Does chelation really work- if so where are the studies…and who should do it and when.

    It seems like pretty simple and very basic science that could have a real impact (albeit any human study is expensive) especially in places like Flint MI and especially since they have found high lead levels in municipal water all over the good ol’ US of A
    Best,
    Bob

    1. Bob, death was a consequence in some of the chelation therapies. I’m pretty sure that’s why he doesn’t recommend them. Plus, based on things I’ve read (which may or may not be true) and what it seems like to me, pulling extraordinary amounts of heavy metals out of the body at once that are being stored in “safer” places, such as the bones, and putting them all in the blood stream could have detrimental effects. So perhaps, naturally chelating heavy metals out of the system via a health plant based diet as well as minimizing exposure (which is a happy consequence of a plant based diet), might be the safer way and maybe even the only permanent way.

      Dr. Greger has a great series on lead and has other videos on heavy metals. I would link them but there are a lot, I would just do a search.

  13. More and more I read about the prevalence of heavy metals in our environment. Apparently it is a growing problem. They are everywhere: air, water, food, not just fish. More and more I’m reading about the diseases caused by these heavy metals, and how important it is to cleanse them from our bodies using natural chelation foods like cilantro and seaweed. I wish Dr. Greger would address this problem, i.e. best ways to cleanse our systems, as it is sure to become more relevant.

    1. Bobber, he actually has many videos on heavy metals including a whole series on lead. I highly suggest searching the site and viewing these videos. Also, heavy metal contamination is covered in other videos not specific to the topic. Animal products are the biggest sources of heavy metal exposure… unless maybe you work at a shooting range and are literally breathing lead thanks to the genius idea of not banning lead bullets – then imagine going home to eat some salmon or steak on top of it. Whole plant foods result in lower heavy metals in the body which we do detox over time.

      1. ^I meant to say that whole plant foods help us to detox while also protecting us and if you’re completely plant based, your exposure is drastically minimized. Just look at the fish chart. Those who ate no fish (which isn’t even to say they weren’t eating other meat with heavy metal contamination) were ridiculously lower in mercury compared to those who moderately ate fish.

  14. Dr . Greger,

    While I am a big fan of yours, heard you speak many times, and send links to many of your videos, you really already had a “quack busting” predisposition, “hack job” mentality to this video that was disappointing. Your weren’t looking for truth, you were trying to paint a picture to condemn physicians (some good and some bad) from trying to help autistic kids who are in a desperate state many times (and their families). There is a rationale for heavy metals being a component. As someone who has done a lot of CaEDTA and/or DMSA challenges to screen for potential heavy metals (almost exclusively in adults) you left out some very important points on doing the urine metal challenge test correctly, and the most important point… “if the metal doesn’t show up in the urine or serum without a challenge, and then hours or a day later your repeat the same test with either CaEDTA and/or DMSA (or DMPS) legitimate chelating agents, and heavy metals go more than five fold greater than their initial levels then where do these metals come from? They don’t come out without the chelating agents?

    I stopped doing the 6 hour pre-test urine collection since they are always normal (even though the post test would have metals usually) to save the patient money. I would do it if the patient was going to see a traditional physician that would just to a non-challenged urine or serum test for a metal or to and say “see no metals!” So while chelating autistic kids and the therapeutic efficacy of this treatment can and should be questioned, why is it that physicians like yourself “blow off” the heavy metals that come out with the chelating agents as nothing? They have to come from somewhere? Soft tissue stores? Bones? Nerves? I don’t know. But if you do before and after 6 hour urine collections with DMSA (some use DMPS) and CaEDTA you will find almost all will have no metals in the urine pre-challenge and many several toxic metals, at least 5 fold higher – or in the red area, post challenge.

    Again I am not saying every autistic child should be chelated, but I think it is highly irresponsible to just “blow off” the metals that come out after chelation, that are known toxins, and just say try and avoid fish and animal foods which concentrate these toxins (an idea I concur with). As a big fan you’re pretty close minded and one sided on this one. You got the conclusion that you were looking for with bad protocol and you haven’t answered the questions….1) where does this metal come from in the body if it didn”t come out with just non-challenged urine collection hours before 2) could those metals be aggravating or “pushing over-the-top” a dysfunctional, “on-the-metabolic-edge” autistic metabolism to more dysfunction and symptoms and 3) if these children could be studied in a controlled way with chelating agents, and after several months a repeat post chelation challenge of DMSA (DMPS)/CaEDTA at the exact same does, measured by the same company showed reduction in metals, and this correlated with improvement wouldn’t that be reasonable?

    While I don’t think everyone should just chelate kids, don’t you think you should be able to explain why it means “nothing” to have toxic metals come out after a challenge when they didn’t come out without the challenge before you condemn the whole process as quackery?

    Keep up the great work. Didn’t help anyone get more to the truth about toxic metals in autism in this video though :-))

    1. I have to support Dr. G. on this one. You said:

      [… don’t you think you should be able to explain why it means “nothing” to have toxic metals come out after a challenge when they didn’t come out without the challenge before you condemn the whole process as quackery?]

      I’m sorry, but I didn’t get that from the video at all. Keep in mind that Dr. G. is referencing clinical medical journals and other published research. So, for example, he quotes from Toxics 2(3):403-416:

      PEHSU and AACT do not recommend chelation treatments [for the reasons given in the article]. Also, the C of MT has advocated against the metal tests due to lack of validation and demonstrated benefits.

      So, Dr. G. reviews the technical literature and reports to us (with his own interpretation, of course). But I don’t see where he “condemns the whole practice as quackery.” I think the caveat is that the baseline for some of the chelated tests (the green “normal” range) does not associate with the challenge data, but is based on the pre-challenge normal range (if I’m reading him right). I can understand it would probably be better to see the “challenged” charts drawn showing levels of metals referenced to only challenged urine samples, so you could fairly see who was high, low, or off the charts.

      And then… if you don’t eat foods that are high risk for metals, like tuna fish, you stack the odds more in your favor, so you would likely be Low on the heave metals panels even after chelation testing. No?

      I think so anyway.

      Just my opinion.

  15. I am so disheartened! Just returned from doctor’s visit and learned that I have gained 8 lbs. since last year’s visit despite altering my diet to WFPB. I have given up so many of the things I used to eat. I was prepared to hear that I had lost weight and not gained it! I was also unprepared for the high BP reading. I am on a beta blocker (very low dose) and was hoping to get off of it completely with the dietary changes. I do not smoke and drink infrequently (one glass of wine)……so what gives? My doctor wants to increase BP meds but honestly I do not want increased side effects. Does anyone have any ideas?

    1. Lida, look at your fat intake. Are you using oils? That would be the first thing I would look at.

      Dr. Lisle does a lecture on “stretch receptors” and he talks about fats, like olive oil not registering to the stomach stretch receptors.

      He also talked about “mistakes” people makes, which are enough to add the 200 or so extra calories per day to have people gain weight.

      One of them was doing smoothies and juices, rather than the whole foods, because the fiber is removed and again the stretch receptors don’t read the extra calories. Dr. Greger talked about it and hot soup, I think was the exception, because of how slow you eat it.

      If you absolutely have to have smoothies and juices, eat them more like soup..

      Also, you are saying WFPB and I am just making sure you really are Whole Food Plant Based and aren’t eating vegan junk food – chips, crackers, etc.

      Are you doing a lot of vegan cheeses? My thoughts about that is that lots of people are over-eating nuts in other forms – cheeses, yogurts, milks, flour, etc.

      Dr. Greger has shown many studies that nuts don’t generally cause people to lose weight, but part of that equation was that people don’t chew them and that part of the equation disappears with the nuts ground down into other products.

      If you are doing a lot of nut butters, consider switching to the powder type. Jif is the one, which tested the best according to that web-site, which I have already forgotten the name.

      For blood pressure, are you doing ground flax seed?

      1. Dr. Lisle’s video “How to Lose Weight Without Losing Your Mind” is on YouTube. He also has an interview where he talks about the mistakes people make.

        If you are doing fats, you have to count calories and watch portion size is what I am going to say, because it won’t be your stomach’s fault that it can’t tell how many extra calories was on that salad.

        His talk was interesting to me, because he said that people who gain weight are really only generally eating about 200 extra calories per day. Even the very morbidly obese tend to gain a certain amount every year and the daily extra calories didn’t have to be very many.

        If you haven’t learned to cook without oil, that is what I am going to recommend first.

        Try to figure out how many nuts you are actually eating per day (if you are drinking nut milks and doing nut cheeses and nut yogurts)

        I think Dr. Lisle said that sometimes, after that, he would take people off some of the starches, if they still hadn’t lost, but increasing fiber and drinking enough water and getting enough exercise.

        Also check your thyroid levels.

      2. Deb You have given me a lot to think about and I thank you for responding.  I am not yet 100% WFPB but definitely more there than not.  Since stopping so many foods that I formerly ate I am sure my caloric intake has really dropped.  I do not partake of smoothies or juices, eat nuts rarely and nut butters never.  I do use flax seeds and even grind my own organic flax seeds.  I still use some organic extra virgin olive oil but very sparingly.  In essence, my eating has improved so dramatically that I am puzzled by the weight gain.  I am sure there is room for continued improvement and I will keep on my journey.  I have been struggling with digestive issues (reflux, esophagitis) which requires me to eat FODMAP low foods.  I am still unable to metabolize beans and cruciferous veggies so getting enough fiber may be an issue.  It has really been tough trying to make sense of what Dr. Greger preaches vs. what my gastroenterologist preaches.  So I have been trying to find a middle ground but that doesn’t seem to be going well.  I have read from others on this site how WFPB cured them of practically everything that was wrong and how they lost weight dramatically and improved all their lab numbers.  It has been tough to compare myself to these fortunate people.  I still don’t understand how some are able to get 80-100 grams of fiber in their daily intake.  Anyway, onward and upward.

        1. Dr Greger talked about FodMap in his last Q & A.

          If I remember right, he said something like, basically there is a war between your good and bad gut bacteria.

          My friend is on FodMap and I know that she has the same problems. So many healthy foods are crossed off her list.

          You are working hard at it and I am so sorry that you are disappointed.

          You will get it.

          I think Dr. Lisle might have some sort of consultation thing on his web-site, if I remember right.

          Some of the other doctors might have that capability, too.

          You need to write a food journal and see where your calories are coming from.

          I know that WFPB does reverse so many diseases and so many people lose weight on it.

          It is harder when you have the conditions you have.

          The other issue is make sure your thyroid is working.

          The fact that it is just a few hundred extra calories per day, exercise can help prevent the gain, but you have a mystery and you need to figure it out.

        2. Lida, nutritional counseling is my job. I find because of genetics, not everyone responds to a certain diet the same way. You have to find what works for you.
          I recommend you read a book called ‘The Personalized Diet’, by Drs Eran Segal and Eran Elinav. They explain that the same foods don’t have the same effect in everyone. Basically the idea is that you test your blood sugar after a meal you eat often, and see what happens. Can also find Dr. Segal lecturing on Utube.
          If you really gained weight on a lower calorie diet that would tell me your blood sugar is going up, raising insulin, causing you to store fat. Your body makes fat whenever your insulin is high, insulin is a storing hormone, and you cannot burn body fat when it is high.
          Your doctor can do an A1c test to see if this is what is going on.
          Your results should be in the 4-5.4 range, higher is not totally normal.

          You can still eat WFPB, but certain plant foods will raise blood sugar for you, and some will not. Until you test you won’t know.
          I also suggest you get a good scale, don’t wait till you go to the doctor to find out how you are doing.
          If you can’t afford to test your blood sugar, you will have to cut down on all high glycemic load carbs.
          But I have clients, for instance, who can eat bananas but not rice, some can eat rice but not bananas. There is a great deal of genetic diversity.

    2. Lida

      My own BP went down without medication due to my psychotherapy. It is my belief that if someone gains weight, it may be because their diet is deficient in something so they are eating more to try to get it. It is my belief that 3oz of 100% grass fed cooked on low heat beef provides many nutrients in which a person might be deficient.

      1. Sydney, Thanks for your reply.  I am a bit confused……was it psychotherapy or 3 oz of beef that resulted in your BP lowered numbers?

        1. Going off all animal products made me lose weight and lower my blood pressure. Eliminating oil from cooking caused another 5 lb weight drop…. I am still “in process” as I continue to seek the ideal diet. Check out “The China Study” by Campbell if you haven’t already.

            1. Lida

              I pay them (farmers, companies and stores) plenty of money to produce and sell me their 100% grass fed beef.

              Otherwise there is no monetary relationship.

        1. Did you watch Dr. Greger’s video on acid reflux:

          https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diet-and-gerd-acid-reflux-heartburn/

          If you have already gotten rid of eggs and fats and animal products, then, do you get enough fiber?

          https://nutritionfacts.org/video/diet-and-hiatal-hernia/ <- (straining in the bathroom contributes to acid reflux.)

          Do you drink soda and coffee?

          A Swedish study found that adding extra salt directly to their meal were 70% more likely to develop GERD. They also found a 50% increase in GERD from eating salted fish or salted meat more than twice a month.

          I thought it was the GAPS diet for reflux? Don't mind me, I just thought FodMap was for IBS and GAPS was for GERD.

          Do you have IBS with the reflux?

          1. I looked up acid reflux and they think it is related to inflammation, so I can recommend Dr. Greger’s spices for helping with inflammation.

            https://nutritionfacts.org/2015/01/20/the-top-four-anti-inflammatory-spices/

            The spices, which helped were: cloves, ginger, rosemary and turmeric were able to stifle the inflammatory response.

            It is in the beginning of the most recent podcast, if you would rather listen: https://nutritionfacts.org/audio/the-perils-of-inflammation/

            There are other videos on diets for inflammation. A type of cherries was one. I am too tired to remember the rest.

              1. Dehydration is another cause.

                Also being low in stomach acid. It is the middle of the night and my mind has gone totally blank on how to explain that one.

                I think it was that people take antacids and the stomach becomes not acidic enough and you get h pylori or some thing like that.

                If you have ulcers or things like leaky gut, I think I read you can drink cabbage juice for ten days, but that isn’t allowed on Fodmap and Dr Greher is the one who can help.

                I am not a doctor should be in every comment ofine.

        2. Nuts/seeds/oils are extremly high in fat even in small amounts, maybe you are eating some avocadoes also, try to drop them completely for a month and see what happen.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oBlKw9nkuY

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HSaE83XmME

          Have you envisaged a very low fat “raw food cure” fresh fruit based for some weeks/months or even water fasting as a last resort? Weight loss guaranted, Alan Goldhamer have good infos about it~

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3SSL30-kQk

          1. Thanks to all who took the time to respond and try to help.  I am overwhelmed by all the suggestions and will need time to sort through them.  I am also thinking of consulting a nutritionist because I feel so lost trying to do this on my own.  In answer specifically to Julot I eat nuts rarely and then sparingly.  I do eat avocado but not every day and when I do it is just about a l/4 of a small avocado.  I really don’t think fats are my issue but maybe a nutritionist can look at what I have been eating and help me sort through my options.  I am dealing with several issues at the same time which is definitely ovedrwhelming me.  Again, thanks to all who reached out.

      1. wow that’s a talk by Chef AJ there Julot! Thanks for posting the link. My experience was/is similar to WFPBLisa’s. The 1/2 cup of milk for morning coffee and olive oil were the last to go for me, and THEN things started to improve quickly. Gerd gone and off meds with a month.. never to return.
        Exercise is important too for feeling well.

    3. Lida, are you sure you didn’t simply gain muscle or even bone density? Did you have body fat measured, specifically? I would first check that if you haven’t, before assuming the worst.

      If you did gain fat, are you eating enough? We can slow our metabolism if we do not get enough calories. If you’re doing calorie restriction, cayenne pepper can help negate the slowing of the metabolism.

      1. TOM Thanks for the link.  It is based on 2005 protocol and I wonder if it remains the same.  I can’t believe the amount of food suggested….nowhere near what I eat in a day!

  16. Please – information on ME/CFS. My daughter is suffering from the disease. If you know of, or can find, information about the cause(s) and treatments, we would be so appreciative! She has been a vegan for about 6 years and eats a fairly healthy vegan diet. (She has done quite a lot of research on her own, but there are so many – often disparate – practices, specialists and medicines – that we, at times, feel paralyzed.Thank you so so much!

    Also – but of much less importance – I am curious about digital dentistry, dental implants and amount of radiation (compared to the more common cat scans of the body) from the cat scans usually required by prosthodontists. Also – any health risks from electromagnetic radiation from MRI’s.

    Also – List getting Long! Lol! – Restless Leg Syndrome – if you have time! :)

  17. You asked about topics of interest. I keep hearing about the ketogenic diet which seems to be about eating only protein and fat. It seems like a bad idea…but has it ever been put to the test?

    1. In one of his recent live Q&A’s, if memory serves, someone had asked him about that and he said he was going to address it in an up coming book “How Not To Diet” as well as put a video on here about it. He did give a spoiler, if I’m remembering correctly, and said that it was not good.

    2. Hi Neeraj Jain – I’m Janelle, a Registered Dietitian, and also Health Support Volunteer for NutritonFacts.org. Thanks for your question! You are correct in that ketogenic diets are very low in carb with majority of calories coming from fat and protein. Some studies have been conducted on ketogenic diets for weight loss, which has shown conflicting evidence. We overall have very limited evidence on the efficacy of ketogenic diets with no long-term studies that have looked at ketogenic diets and health outcomes.

      A 2014 review (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945587/) also concludes that there is a lack of research on long-term effects of ketogenic diets. There are also additional concerns on the diet’s effects on renal function due to the high levels of nitrogen that must be excreted during protein metabolism, as well as there is concern for bone metabolism in those with long-term adherence. There are so many unknowns and questions surrounding ketogenic diets at this time until we have more solid evidence. We know that it is a diet that is low in health-promoting, carbohydrate-rich foods (like fruits, legumes, and whole grains), and rich in animal-based foods, which is reason enough to question the outcomes the diet has on health.

  18. Love the videos. Wish I could listen to them while driving to work. Any chance you could add audio only as an alternative format?

    1. Good news Evan, Dr Gregor does a great podcast which expands on these videos, see link at top of this page. Happy listening!

    1. She’s brain washed :( My mom regrets not raising us vegan for both moral and health reasons now, knowing what she knows now. I actually went vegetarian on my own when I was little for moral reasons and despite eating other animal products apart form meat, I was very healthy and got sick significantly less than my friends.

  19. Why no mention of mercury in vaccines and the connection to autism? A plant-based diet is no help if you’re getting mercury (and aluminum) injected into your bloodstream.

    1. Do vaccines still contain mercury? In any case, while not saying they’re good (depending on the vaccine, I mean we don’t want malaria), how many vaccines does one get? In another video Dr. Greger compares the amount of mercury in just one regular sized can of tuna and it contains the amount of mercury someone would get from 100 mercury laden vaccines… Think of the amount of tuna sandwiches kids eat compared to how many shots they get. All important issues, I’m not denying that at all, but it’s scary to see the things people do in their everyday lives that are even worse than the things they fear.

    1. And in mercury amalgam fillings, first source of human exposition by far, watch the amazing documentary “evidence of harm” for details.

      1. Incidentally he has another video comparing mercury in tuna to that of fillings. A single can is equivalent to walking around with an entire mouth full of metal fillings. People should definitely have their fillings replaced, but they should also definitely stop eating fish.

    2. Richard, there is more mercury in fish than in vaccines. In another video, Dr. Greger points out that one single can of regular sized tuna contains a hundred mercury laden vaccine’s worth of the heavy metal.

  20. As an ‘Autism’ dad with a son who struggles with diet and nutrition I greatly appreciate any and all articles pertaining to autism and diet. Keep up the good work Dr

  21. Dr Gregor, I would give anything to have an appointment with you so you could evaluate my 18 year old son with autism. I have been on a very long and exhausting journey trying to get my son back. He also has epilepsy, so it has been/is, a real challenge. I keep trying to cure him, because I’m his moments of complete clarity, he has asked me what’s wrong with him, and why isn’t he like me. Is do ANYTHING for an appointment with someone like you. I have absolutely fired a team of the best neurologists from Phoenix Children’s Hospital because they nearly killed him with medication! I’ve pretty much been on my own since then. That was 6 years ago. I work for American Airlines and can fly anywhere. Please help him, or point me in the right direction??? Much love for all you do!

  22. So Dr Gregor will reference the Cochrane study on metals but not the Cochrane study on vaccines. Did I miss a vaccine video?

  23. Dr. Gregor,

    Thank you for the evidence-based health information. I’ve listened to your book several times on Audible, and I binge watch your videos. I’m not a total vegetarian, but I do feel better when I stick as closely to a WFPB diet as I can. Except for osteoarthritis, I’m in excellent health, but I could stand to lose 20 pounds. I’ve been on every diet out there over the years, and though cutting carbs works, it raises my stress hormones and makes me feel terrible. Intermittent fasting seems to work too, but I have to be careful with that too (from a stress level perspective). Insulin management (and timing of meals) seems to work as far as weight loss goes (at least in the short term), but I’m curious if there has been reputable research done on fasting and how might be the healthiest way to go about it (if there is one).

    The other topic I’m interested in is skin care products and what really works to help with anti-aging, dry skin, and wrinkles. It’s hard to know whom to believe in the market place, and some of the all natural skin care is very pricey. I know that diet comes first (healthy skin starts on the inside), but what do we do to help mitigate some of the damage that occurred when we were young and stupid. :)

    Keep doing what you do! Thank you!
    Sandy

  24. Deb

    In reply to your question regarding what I eat, here is a sample. For breakfast l/4 cup (before cooking) steel cut oatmeal with a handful of berries and 1 TB of flax seeds(either raspberries, blueberries or strawberries) and some green tea. I do not typically eat lunch. For dinner I will usually have a salad of spring mix lettuces, cucumbers, a few cherry tomatoes, green onions (green part only since fodmap excludes onions and garlic), radish, carrots and maybe a few chunks of avocado. At other times maybe roasted sweet potato and steamed broccoli although I have not done well with broccoli or brussel sprouts. I also like haricot verts. I have avoided all beans in following the fodmap plan and although the plan allows for meat I do try to avoid eating meat but will occasionally have wild alaskan sockeye salmon.
    I just watched a video with several plant based persons like Dr. Klaper and Dr. Barnard for example and I could not believe how much they typically eat in a day. They do not seem to count or weigh their food and eat huge amounts, even the women that were interviewed. I eat nowhere as much as they do. I try to reduce my intake of oil and use extra virgin olive oil very sparingly when I mix it with vinegar in order to have a dressing for the salad. I couldn’t handle the salad dressing recipe that Dr. Greger suggests. Really no oil other than that small amount.
    Thanks for your interest.

    Lida

    1. Lida,

      That has to be so frustrating.

      You are eating what you should be eating and you gained 8 pounds.

      The avocado and oil and salmon are literally the only things you listed, which I could even imagine causing problems.

      Yes, you are right that many of the WFPB leaders just rely on their stretch receptors.

      I go back again to have you had your thyroid checked.

      I am going to pray for you.

      It feels like there is a genuine mystery there.

    2. Hi Lida- Ayurvedic medicine- the world’s oldest medical system (and still thriving) includes what happened to you as part of it’s core theory of body types- body types that roughly correspond to our ectomorph, endomorph and mesomorph. I suggest you look for a good Ayurvedic practitioner that can recommend a diet for your particular constitution. One size dies NOT fit all, even with WFPB!! See the below…this website is a good place to start with Ayurveda.

      http://dakini-ayurveda.com/tag/weight-gain/

      “The second scenario, which has become more prevalent in our society, is when a person gains weight as a result of becoming too depleted or ungrounded. In response, the body puts on weight in order to stabilize the system. In this case, Vata dosha is the root of the imbalance and this type of weight gain is referred to as “Vata pushing Kapha.” In this instance, a lifestyle that is too stressful, ungrounded, mobile, overwhelming or driven depletes the body and mind (a Vata imbalance). In order to protect the depleted system, Kapha dosha tries to ground and stabilize the body, resulting in weight gain. (For example, many cases of hypothyroidism/low thyroid functioning – of which fatigue and weight gain are symptoms – are manifestations of this scenario.)”

      “In recognizing the weight gain, the person may do increasingly rigorous workouts and eat light foods or restrict diet in order to combat the excess weight. But Vata is already too mobile and light, and “like increases like” so these habits further increase Vata dosha and can actually aggravate the root cause of what’s feeding the weight gain to begin with. In addition, for an already depleted system, the increased activity and lighter diet can serve to cause further depletion, fatigue, “burnout”, etc. leading to a scenario in which the person continues to feel frustrated by the excess weight, but is also increasingly more fatigued and depleted.”

      1. Ginko, There may be some validity to what you have said.  I have always had issues with stress but especially recently having suffered an insurmountable loss, one which I cannot seem to get past.  How ironic that I planted a Ginko tree in my yard years ago and  which is now quite huge.  Perhaps I need to do more than gaze upon it.  Once weather stabilizes I may need to consider sitting under that tree and trying to meditate.

        1. Hi Lida- Wow that’s a cool coincidence! Ayurveda goes very deep into our whole system, our whole being…as great as Dr Greger is he is still reductionist- advocating the same diet for everyone.

          Trying to be extremely strict about food and even may I say it- fanatical- can cause a lot of stress. Even the strictest diets in India (where vegetarianism was born) are not, nor ever were vegan! They eat honey and cheese for example and raw milk and ghee, which is clarified butter. And eggs. These foods do not hurt the animals they come from. (If done with respect)

          Now Dr Greger will say that ghee leads to heart disease, and maybe he is right about that in some cases, but in most cases it leads to good health in a person because of the the nutrition and flavor and even perhaps the symbiosis with an animal and the symbolism of the act. Who knows! But many things happen in a way that science can’t yet explain.

          My guess is that you are a Kapha body/personality-type in the Ayurvedic system, and may need to follow a diet that is more suited to your physiology/psychology. Look into it. It’s fascinating! And the best of luck and good health to you!

  25. Ugh. I’m not one with autism. However, I’m about to do a urine collection ordered by my integrative physician to see if I have elevated heavy metals. I actually requested it, since I’m trying to figure out some of my persistent health challenges, such as having multiple thyroid medication increases the past 1-2 years and hair loss/thinning. That type of thing. We’ve tested all kinds of stuff! Ha! I already paid for the pills that chelate, so I’m planning on doing it. I don’t plan on doing the chelation drugs or intravenous nutritional protocols if I have elevated metals. I’m researching things like cilantro and other foods or herbs or even homeopathic remedies to see if I can remove any metals I might have. I’ve been WFPB for a while, so no fish for a couple of years. I know that metals are in our environment, soil, and other materials. I’m digging into the research to learn more so that I’m educated. Ugh!

    1. Lisa, have you checked out Dr. Greger’s videos on lead? Garlic in particular is a great way to bring lead levels down and it only takes 2 cloves a day (going on memory). Also, you will probably appreciate Dr. Greger’s video “Cadmium & Cancer: Plant vs Animal Foods” (d link it but I’m on my phone). In the video he explains how our bodies don’t hold onto the heavy metals from plant sources like they do from animal sources, it’s pretty cool stuff.

      I have no idea if this will help you out but I was having issues with hair loss after a traumatic hospital experience which occurred before going WFPB. I had to get steroid injections to get it to grow back and they worked but I stopped due to the negative side effects I learned could occur. But it started thinning again at a period when I was under chronic stress, so that was a huge part of it but also at that time, I was extremely low in omega 6 in my blood work due to obsessively avoiding it or massively drowning it out with ridiculous amounts of omega 3 when I did have it. Later I found out how essential omega 6 is for hair growth but by then I had already stopped obsessing about them and started just incorporating regular amounts of flax daily and not worryimg about omega 6 from nuts, seeds, etc. due to ill effects I believe the low amounts were causing my skin.
      My hair is great now and I had believed it was due to getting my severe stress under control, but looking back, I also believe it was due to allowing myself to get enough omega 6 from whole plant foods. It’s all my own experience but I just thought if share.

      After my hospital experience I had to be on low dose thyroid medication but was concerned after reading somewhere that it could make your body dependent on them. So I chose to get off and just try to get healthy and allow things to balance out and my body to heal through a healthy lifestyle. I also started taking ashwaghanda for natural thyroid support and I make sure I get enough iodine which I choose to get through small amounts of dried kelp instead of a supplement. And I got off of the medication I was on for my OCD which may have had lithium in it which actually suppresses thyroid and I found out was in a lot of anti-anxiety/anti-depressant medication.
      All of this seemed to work for me, but I didn’t have severe thyroid issues to begin with.

        1. I get Maine Coast dried kelp granules because they’re a company I trust and it’s easy and convenient for me. A teaspoon has an astounding %DV of iodine so I just take a half or 1/4th tsp a day with water as I find that easiest. Some people use it as a salt replacer but I’m not crazy about the taste.

          Incidentally, another commenter on this site under a different video had mentioned how her friend lowered her heavy metals and contributed that to kelp. Of course that’s anecdotal but I had heard of heavy metal chelation via sea vegetables in the past, not sure if it’s true.

  26. HI Dr. Gregor,

    What about using the tests for environmental concerns? We live within 5 miles of a nuclear power plant and a Steam plant (coal generated) My daughter developed thyroid cancer and we have dozens of thyroid cancer in our zip code now. My daughter had the heavy metals and chemicals test done. Lots of both (mercury included) and some phallium . She is trying to chelate with DMSA and to do detox treatments but but gets so sick when taking the DMSA the next day. She takes 2 pills the night before and 2 pills that morning – then goes in for lymphatic massage, colonic, and infrared sauna. Any thoughts on this?

    Thanks so much for your help!!

    Susan

  27. HI Dr. Gregor,

    What about using the tests for environmental concerns? We live within 5 miles of a nuclear power plant and a Steam plant (coal generated) My daughter developed thyroid cancer and we have dozens of thyroid cancer now in our zip code. My daughter had the heavy metals and chemicals test done. Lots of both (mercury included) and some phallium . She is trying to chelate with DMSA and to do detox treatments but but gets so sick when taking the DMSA the next day. She takes 2 pills the night before and 2 pills that morning – then goes in for lymphatic massage, colonic, and infrared sauna. Any thoughts on this? Maybe her liver can’t handle it? or she’s allergic to the sulfur in the DMSA pills. Any way around that?

    Thanks so much for your help!!

    Susan

    1. Susan,

      I don’t have your answer for your question, but one thing which I was reading about was that thyroid cancer is being over diagnosed and over treated.

      I tried to copy the link of the site, but I am not good with my cell phone.

      Not saying your community isn’t genuinely impacted. I don’t know how to know the difference, but they said it is happening.
      Maybe a moderator will be able to help you.

      1. I also was reading that sulfur rich foods were good at chelation and what I noticed was that the list of foods given were the same foods which kill Cancers.

        Garlic
        Cauliflower
        Brussel Sprouts
        Cabbage

        I can’t remember the whole list, but maybe chelation with foods which also kill Cancer might be an idea.

        I am not a moderator and I am a person with brain processing problrms so don’t take my words as if I am an expert on anything.

        I have been trying to learn about things.

        Marjoram is the only helper thing for thyroid cancer on this site, but Dr Greger has lots of foods for killing Cancer and things like broccoli sprouts for protecting against some environmental toxins, so I am hoping people can help you.

        1. Gersons site uses a clay for getting heavy metals out.

          I suddenly don’t know if the clay is in the list of what Dr Greger is against up above.

          My brain is struggling tonight.

          But the clay came to mind.

      2. I felt sure that Dr. Greger had talked about thyroid over-diagnosis either with mammograms or with prostate cancer, but I couldn’t find it.

      3. Yes, that is true but we have a team of chemists and doctors from Duke and Wake working on this in our area. My daughters been biopsied and now has a new tumor. My friend that lives near me has a 17 year old that had 40 tumors and her papillary cancer was aggressive. It’s def something in the environment. We are going holistic with frequent ultrasounds to check the status. But most others are having their Thyroids removed

        1. I really hope you get a response from Dr. Greger or a qualified moderator, Susan!! That is absolutely horrible… I hope you all at LEAST get lawsuits! Not that that begins to make up for anything. But that is just awful. If any moderators see Susan’s comment, please respond or send her question to Dr. Greger.

    2. Hi I’m a RN health support volunteer with NF. Thanks for your question. I’m sorry to hear about what your daughter is going through.
      Unfortunately, these these tests have not been well studied in relation to autism or environmental toxins so their efficacy is unknown. Chelation therapy is largely unproven as well-
      “Although chelation following chronic exposure to inorganic arsenic and inorganic mercury may accelerate metal excretion and diminish metal burden in some organs, potential therapeutic efficacy in terms of decreased morbidity and mortality is largely unestablished in cases of chronic metal intoxication.”
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24178900
      It just hasn’t been studied enough to be able to say much on the subject. You are using a largely untested and unproven therapy regiment so we can’t really advise you on this.

      All we would recommend is a healthy, whole food, plant based diet to help strengthen your daughter’s immune system and get her body in the best shape possible to fight her cancer.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-not-to-die-from-cancer/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/starving-cancer-with-methionine-restriction/
      https://nutritionfacts.org/2014/07/10/how-plant-based-diets-may-extend-our-lives/

      There is some research that shows a healthy diet can lower lead levels. I don’t know if any of that would apply to Mercury and Phallium, but I thought you might find this helpful:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/best-food-for-lead-poisoning-garlic/

      All the best to you and your daughter from all of us here at NutritionFacts.org
      NurseKelly

  28. Wow, that is a dramatic difference in mercury levels between moderate fish consumers and those who eat no fish! I’m on my phone and was looking at the chart wondering where the “no fish” people were, didn’t even see them until I looked close up because they’re all the way down at the bottom lol.

  29. Dr Weil has a great and much more balanced article on chelation here: https://www.drweil.com/health-wellness/balanced-living/wellness-therapies/chelation-therapy/.

    The study that reduced mercury referenced in the above video used DMSA to achieve what looks to be a good reduction in mercury levels with one single use.

    This video is so odd: It seem to be ragging and poo-pooing chelation, (OK there is fraud in every human endeavor) but then seems to show that it actually does work! Which is great news!

    OK we get it- we shouldn’t eat fish! But hey- you should mention that chelation does work if done properly…Right?

  30. Taking a test out of context will most certainly confuse the issue and support your argument. However, a pre-test followed by a post-provocation test where the mercury (or others) elevates more than the pre test shows that the metal is being excreted which is what is desired. If there was no mercury etc. to begin with then there should be no increase on the post test. If there is mercury etc. in the body that is not being excreted normally but stored and the post test is higher, that shows the mercury etc. is now being excreted like you want it to. (Unless during that timeframe you’re eating more mercury which nullifies the test!

  31. I’m curious about mercury in fish in my dog’s food. I assume it’s the same level of harmfulness but he doesn’t do well on any beef or poultry based dry foods. Currently he eats a Six Fish version that is highly rated by Dog Food Advisor. The manufacturer says all fish are locally farmed or wild caught and flown in to their KY plant.

  32. I’m so grateful for your interesting , informative & just plain helpful research information. I love reading the latest nutritional information you so graciously provide.
    Do you know of any research on the Mediterranean type diets & low white blood counts? Also, any information on people with small frames to begin with & bone density tests proclaiming osteoporosis?
    Thank you for all you do!

    1. Hi I’m a RN health support volunteer with NF. Thanks for your feedback and questions.
      Are you looking for information on the Mediterranean diet in general? Dr. Greger has done several videos on that. Basically, it is healthier than the standard American diet, but a whole food plant based diet is healthier yet.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-mediterranean-diet-or-a-whole-food-plant-based-diet/
      There are links below that video to his other videos on the Mediterranean diet.

      I wasn’t sure from your question if your were asking about white blood cell counts in general or white blood cell counts and the Mediterranean diet. And are you referring to abnormally low like in cancer and with some infections or the low end of normal which is actually preferred? Abnormally low white blood cell counts can have many pathophysiological causes:
      https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/low-white-blood-cell-count/basics/causes/sym-20050615

      The Mediterranean diet and plant base diets too, have been shown to have a low normal white blood cell count which may be a good thing. The theory is that since white blood cells increase due to inflammation those eating healthy diets have less inflammation and therefore less white blood cells, and this is a good thing. Dr. Greger has a great video on this and there some links to other videos below it:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-does-a-low-white-blood-cell-count-mean/
      https://www.healio.com/hematology-oncology/hematology/news/in-the-journals/%7B40c0573a-c444-4e24-a5b9-27365ce0b8d5%7D/mediterranean-diet-linked-
      to-lower-platelet-white-blood-cell-counts

      As far as bone density screening, if you have seen Dr. Greger’s wonderful series on screening mammography which questions the benefit of routine screening mammograms. He explains that we may be far more likely to be over-diagnosed and receive unnecessary treatment than we are to have our lives saved by a screening mammogram. You may like this video he did on annual check ups:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-it-worth-getting-annual-health-check-ups/
      I think there are similar concerns with doing routine bone density screenings on people who have no symptoms or complaints. Its often referred to as “disease mongering” and leads to unnecessary treatment with potential harm. This is something Dr. Gilbert Welch has written and spoken on extensively if you are interested in more information.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-DnznA0m9k
      Dr. McDougall, a colleague of Dr. Greger’s, has also spoken strongly against doing these screenings:
      http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/2004nl/041000puosteo.htm

      I hope that helps answer your questions. All the best to you.
      NurseKelly

  33. Dear Dr. Greger, you are absolutely my number one source for info on nutrition and the role it plays in our health. That being said, I hope you don’t take offense, but I am baffled by your ignorance when it comes to vaccines. I know you did a brief series on them recently, with which I was sorely disappointed.

    I think I might have a clue as to why you haven’t found the problems: I’m thinking you’re assessing vaccine safety based on FOOD research, and the problem ingredients found in vaccines are mostly not food-derived. For example, babies are not eating farm-raised salmon; they are being injected with enormous quantities of mercury and aluminum, as well as many other toxins, within minutes of being born.

    Please, use your resources to get your hands on the inserts for several of the current vaccines, and check out both the quantity and variety of ghastly ingredients in them, that no sane person would ever consider injecting into a human of any age.

    In the meantime, I implore you to watch the trailer (02:56) for the documentary VAXXED (01:31:00). If you do, you will be aghast.

    https://vimeo.com/ondemand/vaxxed

    Here’s an excerpt from the producer’s statement:

    In the fall of 2014 everything changed when I was alerted that a senior scientist from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) had become a whistleblower and had confessed on the internet that he and five of his colleagues had committed fraud on their 2004 Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR) vaccine study when they covered-up the fact that the vaccine was causally associated with autism.

    Thanks for reading this and doing what I hope and pray you will.

    Sincerely,
    Liam Vogel

  34. Dr. G.,

    My daughter who is now 15 was chelated at the age of 4 using the DMSA. Looking back I think she may have gotten worse after the treatment. I am wondering if there was any damage, is there a path to help her body recover from chelation harm?

  35. Sad, Dr. Greger. Sounds like you are on the side of western medicine, if there is not a pharmaceutical we can give, the condition doesn’t exist and if it does, we are not going to treat it. There is a reason this video does not make sense; it’s bc it doesn’t. True, it’s better to prevent mercury and lead poisoning but if you are high in heavy metals, thankfully, someone is willing to treat it. You use ONE patient death as a reason to not go that route!? Compare that one to the thousands of neuro-degenerative processes that result from heavy metals. Instead of slamming the test, the test, itself, needs further research to perfect it or disprove it. In the meantime, research the practitioner and go for it! Chelation, done correctly, does work.

  36. Hi Dr. Greger,
    Thanks for your constant culling of the literature. I was wondering if you could do a video on the new research (in the past couple years) looking at autism and folate receptor antibodies and the cross link with dairy. Here’s a link to a lab that tests for this problem with a page that has the full-text articles available.

  37. The info on Autism is GREATLY appreciated!
    Thank you for the excellent coverage on this as well as other helpful topics.

    You asked for input on topics of interest. Vitamin K2 seems to be a current/popular topic of interest.
    It’s relationship with D3 and Calcium appears to be important.

    Thank you for all you do!

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