How to Shop for, Handle, & Store Chicken

How to Shop for, Handle, & Store Chicken
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Poultry is the most common cause of serious food-poisoning outbreaks, followed by fish, then beef. But wait, aren’t people more likely to order their burgers rarer than their chicken sandwiches? The primary location where outbreaks occur is the home, not restaurants.

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

In 2017, a study of more than a thousand food-poisoning outbreaks determined that poultry, specifically chicken, was the most common culprit, highlighting “the role of poultry as a major source of foodborne outbreaks in the United States.” Fish was second; beef was third. But, aren’t people more likely to order their burgers rarer than their chicken sandwiches? The biggest problem isn’t the cooking, but the handling—both at home and in the store.

“A…shop-along study…was conducted to determine actual shopping…behavior of consumers who purchased raw poultry products.” What did they find? “Neither hand sanitizer nor wipes were observed in 71% of grocery store meat sections of stores visited.” And, even when they were there, “only one participant [out of the 96 they followed] used it. Therefore, [it’s] important to educate shoppers on the importance of using hand sanitizers in the meat section after touching poultry packages,” because food poisoning bacteria can get on the outside of the package. Plastic bags were available in most meat sections, “but only [a quarter] of the shoppers used the bags for their raw poultry purchases.” “The shoppers [just usually] placed the poultry directly in the main basket of the grocery cart,” where it could come in direct contact with fresh produce that may be eaten raw in a salad or something.

Then, where do their hands go? They didn’t use any kind of sanitizer, and they then grabbed the handle of the cart. “Because [they’re] not practicing good hand hygiene when handling poultry in the grocery store meat section, they could contaminate a variety of items as a result of contact with their hands.” “Touching the cart after directly handling the poultry packages could mean that the cart becomes a risk factor for Salmonella or Campylobacter” for the next person. The bacteria potentially left on the cart could affect other shoppers, not just the person [picking up the poultry].” So, some kale shopper “following [all] the safety precautions [can come along and” still be exposed to poultry contaminates via the cart.”

In addition to touching the cart, poultry shoppers may also touch “a personal item…after touching [a] raw poultry [package].” A personal item like their children. After touching poultry packages, 31% of shoppers touched a personal item, like their purse or their child.

Most “left the store with poultry [separated] in its own bag; however, most consumers [then] took it out of this protective layer” when they got home. And, one in three placed the package “directly on the counter” before it went into the fridge. And, most were just put straight in, where it could potentially come into contact with other items. Fewer than one in five “consumers correctly stored raw poultry…on the bottom shelf…in a sealed container or plastic bag.” Always on the bottom, since if the raw juices leak, they could contaminate other foods.

The next mistake most people make is then “washing or rinsing raw poultry before cooking it.” Up to 90% of people say they “wash their chicken before cooking it,” because that’s what they’re used to, and they want to “rinse the slime off.” The problem is that the slime can be splashed throughout, like a two-foot halo of contamination around the sink. A lot of folks heard you weren’t supposed to do that, but they continue to do it anyway.

Fewer than about one in ten thaw frozen poultry the way they should, in a sealed container or plastic bag, submerged in cold water, with the water changed every 30 minutes.

Is it better to put raw poultry on a wood cutting board or a plastic cutting board? Neither is safe, as they both get rapidly contaminated.

“Failure to [then] use a food thermometer is a[nother] potentially unsafe practice, given that 70% of chicken pieces that were judged by consumers as “done” had not reached safe internal cooking temperatures.” In focus groups, “many participants thought food thermometers were unnecessary to determine whether meat and poultry were ‘cooked thoroughly,’ because they had been ‘cooking for years without once getting food poisoning.’

But, had they ever gotten a 24-hour flu? There’s no such thing as a 24-hour flu. That’s likely food poisoning. Stomach bug or stomach flu—that’s likely food poisoning. Ever have a urinary tract infection? There are multiple lines of evidence “indicating poultry as a major food animal reservoir for urinary tract infection” bacteria that lie in wait in the rectum, and then crawl up. There are more than a million foodborne Salmonella and Campylobacter infections each year in the United States. “Although half of Americans think it is ‘not very common’ for people in the United States to get foodborne illness because of the way food is prepared in their home, food safety experts estimate that the home is the primary location where foodborne disease outbreaks occur.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: USDA via Flickr. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

In 2017, a study of more than a thousand food-poisoning outbreaks determined that poultry, specifically chicken, was the most common culprit, highlighting “the role of poultry as a major source of foodborne outbreaks in the United States.” Fish was second; beef was third. But, aren’t people more likely to order their burgers rarer than their chicken sandwiches? The biggest problem isn’t the cooking, but the handling—both at home and in the store.

“A…shop-along study…was conducted to determine actual shopping…behavior of consumers who purchased raw poultry products.” What did they find? “Neither hand sanitizer nor wipes were observed in 71% of grocery store meat sections of stores visited.” And, even when they were there, “only one participant [out of the 96 they followed] used it. Therefore, [it’s] important to educate shoppers on the importance of using hand sanitizers in the meat section after touching poultry packages,” because food poisoning bacteria can get on the outside of the package. Plastic bags were available in most meat sections, “but only [a quarter] of the shoppers used the bags for their raw poultry purchases.” “The shoppers [just usually] placed the poultry directly in the main basket of the grocery cart,” where it could come in direct contact with fresh produce that may be eaten raw in a salad or something.

Then, where do their hands go? They didn’t use any kind of sanitizer, and they then grabbed the handle of the cart. “Because [they’re] not practicing good hand hygiene when handling poultry in the grocery store meat section, they could contaminate a variety of items as a result of contact with their hands.” “Touching the cart after directly handling the poultry packages could mean that the cart becomes a risk factor for Salmonella or Campylobacter” for the next person. The bacteria potentially left on the cart could affect other shoppers, not just the person [picking up the poultry].” So, some kale shopper “following [all] the safety precautions [can come along and” still be exposed to poultry contaminates via the cart.”

In addition to touching the cart, poultry shoppers may also touch “a personal item…after touching [a] raw poultry [package].” A personal item like their children. After touching poultry packages, 31% of shoppers touched a personal item, like their purse or their child.

Most “left the store with poultry [separated] in its own bag; however, most consumers [then] took it out of this protective layer” when they got home. And, one in three placed the package “directly on the counter” before it went into the fridge. And, most were just put straight in, where it could potentially come into contact with other items. Fewer than one in five “consumers correctly stored raw poultry…on the bottom shelf…in a sealed container or plastic bag.” Always on the bottom, since if the raw juices leak, they could contaminate other foods.

The next mistake most people make is then “washing or rinsing raw poultry before cooking it.” Up to 90% of people say they “wash their chicken before cooking it,” because that’s what they’re used to, and they want to “rinse the slime off.” The problem is that the slime can be splashed throughout, like a two-foot halo of contamination around the sink. A lot of folks heard you weren’t supposed to do that, but they continue to do it anyway.

Fewer than about one in ten thaw frozen poultry the way they should, in a sealed container or plastic bag, submerged in cold water, with the water changed every 30 minutes.

Is it better to put raw poultry on a wood cutting board or a plastic cutting board? Neither is safe, as they both get rapidly contaminated.

“Failure to [then] use a food thermometer is a[nother] potentially unsafe practice, given that 70% of chicken pieces that were judged by consumers as “done” had not reached safe internal cooking temperatures.” In focus groups, “many participants thought food thermometers were unnecessary to determine whether meat and poultry were ‘cooked thoroughly,’ because they had been ‘cooking for years without once getting food poisoning.’

But, had they ever gotten a 24-hour flu? There’s no such thing as a 24-hour flu. That’s likely food poisoning. Stomach bug or stomach flu—that’s likely food poisoning. Ever have a urinary tract infection? There are multiple lines of evidence “indicating poultry as a major food animal reservoir for urinary tract infection” bacteria that lie in wait in the rectum, and then crawl up. There are more than a million foodborne Salmonella and Campylobacter infections each year in the United States. “Although half of Americans think it is ‘not very common’ for people in the United States to get foodborne illness because of the way food is prepared in their home, food safety experts estimate that the home is the primary location where foodborne disease outbreaks occur.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: USDA via Flickr. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Doctor's Note

What about organic chicken? See Superbugs in Conventional vs. Organic Chicken. And check out a video I released after this one came out: Urinary Tract Infections from Eating Chicken

Chicken infections can be particularly concerning because of the antibiotics they use in production (Past the Age of Miracles: Facing a Post-Antibiotic Age) and because of some of the specific pathogens involved (Avoiding Chicken to Avoid Bladder Infections).

What about food poisoning from plant foods? See Norovirus Food Poisoning from Pesticides.

Some cooking methods may increase the risk of other diseases. For example How to Reduce Cholesterol Oxidation.

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142 responses to “How to Shop for, Handle, & Store Chicken

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  1. Thank you Dr. Greger for the reminder to continue using those sanitizer cloths that are setup at the entrance to the store. Even if it didn’t come with the salmonella or e-coli, chicken is still disgusting. My refrigerator has no idea what chicken looks like. And thank you again for the the great book “How Not To Die”.

    1. I wish more people realized that we didn’t even have to have this problem of salmonella in the first place. There are salmonella-free countries in
      Europe because they had the political will to eliminate it upon first appearance and, then, assiduously keep out any infected stock. Simple.
      Instead, in the good-ol-USA, it was decided that that elimination was too difficult, and, it would be much easier to place the problem on the consumer with a PR campaign appealing to ‘careful’ housewives. Hence all the warnings we have gotten so used to over the years. Clean cutting boards etc. and, now plastic bags to protect our greens from even the outside of packaged chicken. The solution is not far-fetched, just very inconvenient to corporate producers of poultry. There are currently 2 hatcheries here in the USA that sell salmonella-free poultry. When I buy my chicks from them, I know that the eggs I am graced with from these hens can safely be eaten raw in cookie dough, and the birds are healthy enough to handle freely, both live and dead. Eggs and meat would probably cost more, but they are worth so much more, and should probably be viewed as the occasional treat they used to be instead of the heavily contaminated commodity we see today.

      1. URB, being a regular at this site for years now, I have come to realise that salmonella is just one os a great many great reasons to avoid chicken and eggs altogether. Pancreatic and liver cancer, leukemia and lymphomas, prostate cancer progression, viruses, and a host of other issues have been discussed bry Dr Greger . You can find a collection of topical videos here https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/chicken/
        And the same with eggs, https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/eggs/ and you find the discussions at this link .. more than enough good reasons to back away from animal foods in general wether they are ‘salmonella’ free or not.

    1. Although not explicitly stated, the message is obvious, “Don’t bother with chicken. Boiling beans or lentils is easier.” :)

  2. Huh? What? I don’t even look at that section of the supermarket.

    If I’m going to eat meat, it’s likely coming most direct from the farm or field or wilds. That mass-mega-low-price sort of meat production has become foreign to me. And I like it that way.

    1. “It is a healthy, natural reaction for someone who witnesses the brutalities inflicted upon nonhuman animals in the agriculture industry for the first time, to ask, “how can we stop this from happening?”. The simple truth is that there remains only one answer, only one way to stop it from happening. We must end the consumption of animal-based products. Until then, nonhuman animals will always be placed in “livestock” conditions, they will always be exploited, they will always be abused and they will always be slaughtered. You cannot teach someone that a life-form has any real value when it is considered acceptable to enslave, kill and eat said being. Whilst humanity views nonhuman animals as resources, mere commodities, they will always be victims of our barbarity. There is no “humane” way to treat a slave and there certainly is no “humane” procedure to take a life.”

      1. The people who eat those fear-riddled chickens probably wonder later why they feel so cranky and miserable. Sensitive folks avoid eating meats for that reason….among others. We’re all connected.

        Has anybody done the almighty scientific research to see if the meat eaten from scared shitless (literally) animals tastes like crap? I suppose the results would depend on who’s doing the funding.

  3. Okay you missed the counter/conveyor belt at the checkout and the seasonings and utensils used at the grill or heat source. I did prepare a large batch of poultry for the 4th of July fiesta this year, but I didn’t shop for the birds. I am nuts about keeping the work areas around my cooking station and my utensils sorted to avoid cross-contamination from raw to cooked.

  4. Often I put my kale etc down on that shop counter conveyor belt and who knows what has been on it (kids, chicken, chocolate bars, etc) – I assume it gets cleaned occasionally. You would definitely be a nervous wreck if you worried about every possible infection point. Think the shop would get a little annoyed if customers suddenly pulled out wipes and started cleaning everything down (and then what do you do with the wipes which may then also be covered with infections).

    Thanks for the great videos as ever, they are always of interest

    1. Yes, the produce often isn’t in any bag at all and there have been times I have wanted to save landfills a zillion bags, but sat there looking at those conveyor belts and I ended up back at the plastic bags.

      I have bags which I use for recycling and those get filthy, even when I try to clean out the containers, so I don’t even trust the bags you buy.

      I feel like nobody has found a good system for the meat or the produce yet.

      Stores should be doing the protective process somehow.

      Can they wash the outside of the meat packages after the meat is wrapped?

      Do they ever wash the carts? I often go shopping at midnight and the answer is never.

      Do they ever wash the freezer section handles? I have never seen that either.

      I have seen the floors getting mopped.

  5. things like this are forgetting about someone-namely the non-human victims. what’s next-“how to run dog fights without getting bitten”?

  6. Since I stopped eating (organic) chicken (and also started eating more hazelnuts and walnuts), the (small) plaque in my Carotid artery diminished further.

    But I suspect it is not the chicken’s fault, I think it is the chicken feed – whether organic or not, I suspect corn and wheat is not good for chicken the same way corn and wheat is not good for beef.

    How about wild Grouse?

  7. Are meat vibes in the air or something? I see Goes-Either-Way* Dr. Oz is showing a rerun of “Is it Time to Eat Red Meat Again?” on his show today.

    *The next day might be devoted to a vegan diet…the following day to the paleo diet….the day after that to whatever subject he thinks will pull them in. (Usually, all those on his show are fat.)

    1. Laughing, YR, you got it.

      Alternating diet wars.

      This video isn’t really about eating chicken though.

      It is a heads up that the person who picked up the potato before you might have handled the chicken in the other part of the store.

      Luckily, most of America only eat potatoes, so you are probably safe with the Kale.

  8. It’s “important to educate shoppers on the importance of using hand sanitizers in the meat section after touching poultry packages…” And then, after checking out with your purchases, you can get yourself a nice hit of BPA as the clerk hands you the receipt, as reported here, last year:
    https://nutritionfacts.org/video/bpa-on-receipts-getting-under-our-skin/

    Is there something to get the hand sanitizer off of one’s hands so as to avoid this further contaminant?

    1. Steve, you just added to the shopping thought process.

      Seems like a pair of shopping gloves placed strategically in the reusable bags might be useful.

      Pondering people who buy meat with those reusable bags.

      Wondering what the bag germs would look like a week later when they do the process again.

      Seems like having a designated meat reusable bag wouldn’t even help.

      Watching the video, yes, when I was buying meat, even when it was just shopping for the family, the meat rested on the counter or the stove for a minute, before being put on the wrong shelf in the fridge.

      I have a freezer on the bottom refrigerator, so the produce drawers are the bottom.

      I am not sure if my meat-eating relatives show up with chicken, which they do grill when cooking out, whether I have to say, no, you have to come late so that the meat goes straight onto the grill.

      I haven’t bought a grill yet. I still haven’t decided about it. It is the way my family gets together, but I don’t tend to cook my vegetables at all, so it would be mostly for the guests.

      1. Deb, I don’t serve meat in my home, and I wouldn’t let guests cook it here, either. To me, that would be like saying: This is a smoke-free home, but go ahead and smoke any cigarettes you brought with you. I don’t even want them smoking in my back yard.

        I do have a little indoor electric duraceramic panini maker/grill, which I use to grill summer produce oil-free. It’s also a lot cooler than using a grill pan on the gas stove top, and easier to clean up. Outdoor grill are too much hassle, take up too much space, and are too polluting for the little bits of grilled veggies that I enjoy. (Though I’ve read that I can also grill fruit — I will try that some time, I think.)

        1. Hi Dr. J- I’d definitely consider allowing meat to be cooked in my home it if I were to otherwise risk alienating myself from my family. I guess it would depend on how much they considered a no meat rule to be excessively rigid. To me, a spirit of compromise is important. As right as we may be in not eating meat, we are a small minority. A non-smoking policy in the home is much easier to justify because it is rather socially unacceptable to smoke indoors anyway. Not allowing smoking even in the yard, however, might not go over well with any smoking family members. As long as they were far enough away that the smoke didn’t draft back inside, the harm to me would probably be minimal. I don’t have any smokers in my family, so I don’t have to worry about that. By contrast, I am the only one in my family that doesn’t eat meat.

          1. Scott and Dr J.

            I understand both perspectives and yes, it would alienate friends and family.

            I have mostly radical keto people around me. Followed by SAD.

            I actually haven’t had any of them over since I became a vegan, because of my sick dog.

            It is interestingly parallel to my Christian walk, because I am a grace and love and “Come just as you are to God” Christian and my Christian friends aren’t like that and my family members aren’t Christian and I am not going to debate with anyone about WFPB or Christianity.

            I would say that I am a black sheep in my community from so many directions, but I love them and am trying to be a peacemaker whenever possible without compromising the core values.

            I think I value genuine mutual respect and trying to understand each other more than I care about boundary setting.

            And I know that to boundary setters mutual respect would be no chicken in my house and to peacemakers, it might be that I order pizza for them or something else, but cook out is standard this time of year.

            1. The Torah / Bible talk about a stranger in a strange land and I am not sure if I am the most rebellious person in the universe or if I am a sign of the times because I ended up outside all of the cultures and that can be isolating if you don’t watch out.

              People get offended by differences or embrace the ones they like and set boundaries against the others. Some of the people around me became professionals and that is a culture with tons of rules and behavioral expectations and I am also surrounded by very blue-collar people and I am outside of both of those cultures. Even if I talk WFPB, I am not all the way unprocessed and if I put all of the doctors in front of me and figure out which culture I might fit into if I happened to run across someone from that food culture, which never happens, it would be probably Dr. Barnard, because he allows transition food, but the WFPB culture has radical raw, fruititarians, starch solution, no oil, vegan keto, junk food keto, etc.

              Each culture I am a part of has divided so much that people can’t eat together at all. I mean, not at all.

              Between food allergies and diets and strongly opinionated belief systems – food divides all of us now. So does professional versus blue collar. So does drinking and pot smoking versus no drinking or pot smoking. So does has money versus poverty and highly educated versus high school dropouts. Materialistic, pleasure-centered versus highly disciplined.

              I don’t know if the rest of you are experiencing it, but I call it “combat culture” and when I first became a Christian, the churches ate together every day almost, and a few years ago, a small group tried to get together and eat before Bible Study and not one person could eat with the other. Some were Keto, some were shakes, some were comfort food, some had medical restrictions on salt or sugar, some only ate Italian, some were Fodmap, some were gluten-free, some were lactose intolerant, some wouldn’t eat soy, some were allergic to nuts, some had to watch their potassium and phosphorous… the list of one small group’s dietary needs was larger than this. Not one person could eat together.

              I respect all of them but know people set boundaries over the slightest thing and we already don’t have the ability to interact without fighting and people who used to love each other don’t even like each other anymore.

              WFPB, if kids could start eating fruits and vegetables and not get messed up, at least a few people might be able to sustain relationships again.

              1. Deb, everybody is on a different journey. All those Bible Study members, etc. may feel strongly about their food choices this week, and next week yet another food is “off limits.” Or back on again. We’re not to care, nor should they care how you live your life. “To Thine Own Self Be True.”

                There’s also another saying: “What others think of me is none of my business.”

                http://www.mindrecipes.com/2011/what-other-people-think-of-me-is-none-of-my-business/

                There’s a full moon today in Pisces. Lots of people are super-sensitive and uptight; let’s hope we can make it through the rest of the summer without yet more calamities. :-(

              2. It’s somewhat interesting to me how this discussion coincided with the passing of John McCain. The disturbing phenomenon you describe, Deb, is nowhere more evident than in party politics. I didn’t always agree with McCain, but I admired him for seeking common ground and rejecting dysfunctional groupthink.

                I think vegans do themselves disservice by the commonly held “us against them” mentality. I realize mainstream defensiveness doesn’t exactly promote tolerance, but I nonetheless try my best to practice it. The times I have decided to allow small amounts of animal products into my diet have always involved the dynamics of dining with family and friends. I respect that many could never feel good about doing that, but I consider my decisions sound. There often is much more to dining than just nourishment.

                1. “The disturbing phenomenon you describe, Deb, is nowhere more evident than in party politics.”
                  – – – – –

                  Too true, Scott. Marriages and friendships have broken up over this last presidential election.

    2. Well the benefits likely outweigh like potential risks as it helps to avoid a much more immediate and potentially very serious risk to you and those around you. Here’s the thing though… if you have to choose chemicals or risking infectious disease, maybe realize we shouldn’t be eating animals in the first place if we have to go through all that just to keep ourselves safe? Humans are not meant to eat animals and when we try, hard as we do, it comes with an array of health risks including infectious disease from simply handling.

  9. Victims? Brutality?

    One time I was walking down a mountain trail and I saw a frog hoping wildly up the trail towards me. Then I saw a snake also coming quickly up the trail. The frog darted into the bushes and the snake slithered off.

    I didn’t know whether to feel happy that I had (inadvertently) saved the life of the frog or to feel bad that I had robbed the snake of a meal.

    Viewed from that perspective, I don’t understand the vegan lifestyle.

    I once read an account of a hunter gatherer woman walking thru the woods in one hand carrying an suckling infant, in the other hand carrying a 35 lb sack of vegetables slung over her shoulder and a four year child walking next to her. Clearly humans have always eaten LOTS of fruits and vegetables (as do I). However every anthropological film/video I have seen and all material on hunter gatherers I have read always shows humans have always eaten SOME meat. In fact anthropologists say humans could not have developed our huge brains without eating meat.

    1. Sydney, that is NOT true. Anthropologists do not say humans couldn’t have developed our “huge” brains without eating meat. That was actually written by one person and it was a poorly put together theory debunked over and over. Also, it wouldn’t have been the eating of the meat but rather the eating of cooked foods preserving our energy. In fact, the entire process of tracking, hunting, cooking and eating animals would have taken up a lot more energy. Dr. Greger has some great videos on our ancestors’ diet, one entitled “The Problem with the Paleo theory” or something like that.
      I’ve read that it’s actually very hard to know exactly what our ancestors ate but they were certainly not the great hunters people were taught to believe they were. From my understanding, they ate vegetation season to season region to region and would have been more akin to scavengers in regards to animal consumption than hunters.

      Now what confuses me is why a carnivorous snake needing to eat would confuse you about the vegan lifestyle… You are not a snake, you are a human. You have no physiological need to consume another sentient being and therefore it is immoral and unethical to do so. Nature agrees as doing so is detrimental to your health and the entire planet’s ecosystem.
      It’s a tough world for frogs and snakes but they play a very important role on this planet God bless their little souls.

      Even if the whole brain spiel were true (it is not but I’m just saying), that wouldn’t hold a candle to the mounting scientific data as to how harmful these things are for us and harmful to the very “huge” brains some like to claim we have gotten from eating them. In a fantasy world where all that’s true, it could still be said that that shit isn’t doing your brain any favors now.

      1. Dear S.

        You may well be right about some of the things you say, but

        You are the snake, you are the frog, you are one with everything. The DNA in your arm has an amazing relationship with all other life. Even plants eat animals and not just venus fly traps. Even fertile soil is life. (Lichen grows on infertile rocks, but lichen is not a plant.) Do you think plants WANT to be eaten? Then why do they grow thorns and poisonous chemicals etc.

        It is true that EVERY thing I have seen and read about homos: erectus and sapiens etc shows them eating SOME meat. (Australopithecines are NOT human, any more than 100% glass fed cows are human, but the grass that the cows eat could not grow without the death of other life.) Good night.

        1. Yes, in the higher scheme of things, ’tis said we ARE all part of the One.

          So with that thinking in mind, people who chow down on meat are in reality eating themselves.

          1. Yes, in the higher scheme of things, ’tis said we ARE all part of the One.

            So with that thinking in mind, people who chow down on meat are in reality eating themselves.
            ——————————————————————————————————————————–

            YR, were you born a hippie or did you just get caught up in the 60s and follow the smoke into hippie-dom? ‘-)

            And for what it’s worth, I am not a part of the One but am instead an outlier who hovers on the edges observing those within the un-defined boundary of the circle/sphere mass of hoi polloi below.

              1. there’s something to this Everyone-is-Connected business.

                Which means, Lonie, you and I are…..CONNECTED! Bwahahahaha! :-)
                ————————————————————————————————
                In that we evolved probably from a single species, in that sense we are connected. However it has been learned that some of us have Neanderthal DNA while others don’t.

                I’ll not lay claim to the higher version (’cause I’m not in to that “you are a Neanderthal” name-calling thing ‘-) but will say we are probably on different sides of the DNA divide.

                Just joking YR… Juhhhhhst joking. (maybe)

                1. Well, I think I’m a hybrid from Outer Space or somewhere. :-) For a lark, and because a couple of other family members did so, I ordered a DNA kit from Ancestry.com. We’re supposed to spit into this little tube solution, wait a few moments while it drops down to the bottom and combines with whatever is there….and then we’re supposed to mail it back to Ancestry.com to see who (in this lifetime) we’re related to, ethnic background, and yada-yada.

                  My lovely saliva did combine a tiny bit with the blue solution…but would then go no further. I followed all the instructions, it’s not a biggie thing to figure out. When I called the company after waiting a couple of hours of nada, they said, “Well, in very rare cases, this does happen.” And then sent me another kit.

                  But the same thing happened. My spit went only a short distance. It didn’t wanna mingle with any chemical solution nonsense. Anyway, Ancestry does not have my DNA in their files, and sent me a partial refund. (Just as well, from what I hear about those outfits.)

                  1. I’m surprised Ancestry didn’t refund you in full, YR. Maybe just as well indeed. My spit behaved, but my results didn’t tell me anything especially worthwhile. 90% of me is Anglo Saxon. Not to knock that ancestry, but it’s so common in the US it’s kind of boring.

                  2. My lovely saliva did combine a tiny bit with the blue solution…but would then go no further. I followed all the instructions, it’s not a biggie thing to figure out. When I called the company after waiting a couple of hours of nada, they said, “Well, in very rare cases, this does happen.” And then sent me another kit.

                    But the same thing happened. My spit went only a short distance. It didn’t wanna mingle with any chemical solution nonsense.
                    —————————————————————————————————————-
                    Hmmm, very interesting. Explains a lot.

                    1. Yup! I was wishing I could get in touch with those kindred souls whose spit ALSO did not mix with the contents of the spittoon. FAMILY!! :-)

                    2. Heh, you and your ersatz “Family” are truly oners… which begs the question: Did any of your other questionably recognized family have trouble getting their spit takes to work as expected? If so, maybe you aren’t actually related to them.

                      I get the same feeling having been around my own family. Good people but everyone of them just “different” YKWIM?

                      I often wonder if perhaps I was mixed up with another family’s infant at the hospital. The clinic where I was born has long since been razed and the records?… who knows. Anyway, my real parents are probably long since dead. Hope they got a better child in exchange than the one they lost… but I seriously doubt it. ‘-)

                    3. The spittoon worked for both my daughter and niece so, yeah, it turns out they are indeed related to my body “facade” this time around. The “real me” is something else again. Har-har?

                      Millions of people feel they were born into the wrong family. I could say more about this fascinating subject, but it veers into woo-woo territory –better not go there. (Beam me up, Scotty!)

        2. Sydney, if you were trying to blow my mind, you failed. What in the name of all logic, reason, spirituality or whatever else you want to throw in there does the DNA in my arm have to do with our human physiology which dictates we are frugivorous herbivores with zero need to take another life in order for our own survival unlike a snake to a frog or a frog to a fly? Your attempts to try to justify and unjust and unnatural behavior are simply that, attempts to justify what is unjust because you want to maintain an unjustifiable habit and desire and feel ok about it. You’re compartmentalizing; you know better because the science says so and you’re capable of understanding the logic of why there’s no need for you to harm other life but this contradicts a way of life that most of us are at some point accustom and even addicted to. And in order to do this, you’re being completely ridiculous. Plants are not sentient beings in the way animals are but while we can all get stoned and philosophize about this till we’re blue in the face and red in the eyes, humans need to consume plants to survive, we do not need to consume other animals and doing so harms us and inarguable causes torture and genocide to holocaustic proportions. And here’s the clincher to it… I can go even FURTHER than that logic glaring us in the face… even if you DO want to be ridiculous and take the “plants tho!” route to defend your habits, here’s the truth… to cause the LEAST amount of harm to plants, we should be eating the plants directly and not the animals. It takes pounds of plant life to produce just one pound of animal flesh and the deforestation to grow the crops to feed the animals and the deforestation to clear land to keep the animals is immense and one of the greatest global epidemics among many.

    2. I am not a vegan but the issue has a number of facets. Keeping it short and simple, here are three

      1. health lots of videos here on this site but ‘Third of early deaths could be prevented by everyone giving up meat, Harvard says’
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/04/26/third-early-deaths-could-prevented-everyone-giving-meat-harvard/

      2. ehics it is not necessary to eat meat to be healthy or to obtain enough calories to stay alive . So what is the ethical justification for the killing of so many living creature or the cruel and brutal treatment most of them experience while alive?

      3. environment the damage to our enviroment from the mass livestockindustries is enormous. For example you’ve probably heard of the deforestation of the Brazilian rainforest because of land clearing to create pasture for beef cattle.

      1. Tom,

        I gave up meat because I got sick eating meat, but once the “lust” for meat was gone, immediately the compassion for the animals rose up.

        When I was in school, I remember a lecture on persuasion and it was about how people who sacrificed had better satisfaction. Volunteers had better satisfaction doing the exact same thing as people who were paid a lot of money for the exact same job. The study talked about the need people have to justify what they were doing and the need to assign a higher meaning to it.

        The minute I stopped eating meat, I no longer had to insulate myself from the feelings of the animals, and, yes, I do believe animals have feelings. Watching Koko videos recently, she wanted a pet and wanted a baby monkey. She got sick of doing lab experiments. If animals could all communicate even with sign language, many people wouldn’t kill them. Some would, because sign language is not a language most people understand, so it is easy to justify the cruel behavior and argue about their brains.

        I watched Oprah’s 60 Minutes segment on the Museum memorial for lynching victims and I was so humiliated by the logic white people used to justify killing men, women, and children over the tiniest thing.

        Philip Yancey talked about growing up racist and said that he was at the hotel standing in the spot MLK Jr died the next day. He changed completely by seeing the dignity of Martin Luther King Jr and his followers.

        I watched “Eating You Alive” and watched the animals being abused scene and I no longer have to bury my head in the sand to not look at the industry and I don’t have to build a case of why it is okay to abuse and kill animals or why it is okay to wreck the environment.

        It freed me to just respond with compassion.

        I will add to your points economics.

        Medical care costs are skyrocketing so high and not eating meat reverses diseases and it just makes so much more sense of poorer people to live this way and I am one of them.

        I have a friend who ended up in the hospital again today. It seems like every week. She is a poor person and the hospitals can’t get money out of a person who is so close to going homeless again. The cost to society, for poor people who eat meat, is very high.

        The cost of the meat industry itself is also high, but fixed-income elderly people and poorer people genuinely could help society by changing our diets.

      2. Dear TG,

        I agree that most meat is raised atrociously, but if you are not a vegan, why would you use that argument to say that no one should eat any meat?

        You are very good at responding to things I say, but why have you not responded to my statement that all material I have seen or read about hunter gatherers always shows them eating SOME meat (which is often difficult for them to hunt down)?

        BTW: We live in a world where predators keep eating other animals. So why is it not ethical for us to eat animals. I get many important nutrients from eating 100& grass fed beef and lamb and four eggs/day. I would not be healthy without them.

        1. Sydney

          ‘I agree that most meat is raised atrociously, but if you are not a vegan, why would you use that argument to say that no one should eat any meat?’

          Beacuse it is the money that we pay to buy meat, that causes others to brutally treat and slaughter animals to produce the meat that they sell to us. If people did not buy meat, there would be very little or no such treatment of our fellow living creatures. This, after all, is why people who view child porn are prosecuted. Even though they themselves may not abuse children, it is the money they use to buy child porn videos which keeps that industry going and growing. The money we pay makes us complicit in the industries and behaviour concerned.

          “hunter gatherers always shows them eating SOME meat (which is often difficult for them to hunt down)?”

          Hunter gatherers have no food security. They can’t afford to ignore any source of calories if they want to survive. Also, meat can provide some nutients that might otherwise be difficult to obtain in their particular environment -eg zinc, iron, B12, protein. Living in an advanced 21st century society, with foods from all over the world available in supermarkets, you and I can easily obtain all those nutrients through a well-planned vegetarian diet. Hunter gatherers on the other hand depend entirely upon locally sourced foods to meet their needs..

          ‘BTW: We live in a world where predators keep eating other animals. So why is it not ethical for us to eat animals. I get many important nutrients from eating 100& grass fed beef and lamb and four eggs/day. I would not be healthy without them.’

          Predators need to eat other living creatures to survive. We don’t. Therefore, we are (indirectly) brutalising and killing other living creatures unnecessarily.. To repeat, tigers need to eat meat to survive. We don’t. In my opinion, unnecessary killing is unethical.

          I doubt very much that grass-fed beef and eggs are making you healthy. A scientific panel established by the World Health Organization assessed all the evidence and concluded that eating red meat probably increases cancer risk. The idea that grass-fed meat is harmless or even healthy is, as far as I can determine, just wishful thinking.(or perhaps sophisticated marketing) There is no credible scientific evidence that it is healthy. In Uruguay for example, where all the beef is grass fed, cancer rates increase as more meat is consumed The grass-fed meat promoters never mention this.
          ‘Conclusion: Our results confirm earlier findings of increased risk of digestive tract cancers, but suggest that meat consumption also increases the risk of several other cancers.’
          http://journal.waocp.org/?sid=Entrez:PubMed&id=pmid:19640186&key=2009.10.3.429

          As for aggs, you could try watching some of these videos
          https://nutritionfacts.org/?s=egg

          Eggs may possibly be less unhealthy than processed meat or refined carbohydrates, which muddies the waters somewhat but, among otherwise health conscious individuals, this UK study found that those who ate 6 or more eggs a week had 2.7 times the death rate of people who ate less than one egg per week (see table 4)
          https://heart.bmj.com/content/78/5/450#block-system-main

    3. ‘Eating meat was credited with allowing humans to develop large brains
      But study suggests cooked starchy foods like potatoes were vital too
      Human brain uses high levels of blood glucose found in carbohydrates
      Starches would have been readily available to ancestral human populations’
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3189454/The-secret-man-s-intelligence-POTATOES-Humans-evolved-large-brains-ancestors-ate-starchy-carbohydrates.html

      ‘Ask any biologist what makes primates special, and they’ll tell you the same thing: big brains. Those impressive noggins make it possible for primates from spider monkeys to humans to use tools, find food, and navigate the complex relationships of group living. But scientists disagree on what drove primates to evolve big brains in the first place. Now, a new study comes to an unexpected conclusion: fruit.’
      http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/fruit-eating-responsible-big-brains

    4. >>In fact anthropologists say humans could not have developed our huge brains without eating meat.

      There is not a shred of evidence for this claim. And anthropology has nothing to do with brain science, so I doubt that their opinions on the subject would be very useful.

  10. So I haven’t watched the video yet, but I’m hoping as it plays there’s only one line in the video… “Don’t.” End video.
    That would be hilarious… and true!

  11. This was helpful, I’ll send it to the people who argued with me throughout my life “but it’s wrapped in a package.” My response always having been “yeah… by a butcher!”

    People can be so gross. In high school we had to do this group cooking thing and my group went to this one kid’s house and they (not me!) were cooking something with chicken.. He dropped raw chicken on the floor and just picked it up and didn’t disinfect the floor, AND he handled raw chicken and didn’t wash his hands, he WIPED them on the hand towel hanging in their kitchen and left the hand towel there for others to use as if nothing!!!!! How’s that for a horror story… and it’s true!

    1. He dropped raw chicken on the floor and just picked it up and didn’t disinfect the floor, AND he handled raw chicken and didn’t wash his hands, he WIPED them on the hand towel hanging in their kitchen and left the hand towel there for others to use as if nothing!!!!! How’s that for a horror story… and it’s true!
      ————————————————————————————————————————————————–
      So, was the coroner made aware of this when he autopsied the family?

      1. Mock food poisoning if you will Lonie, but some do die from it. However, as explained in the video, these things lead to other common symptoms and diseases, also it can keep your immune system in a surpressed state, not to mention the impact healthy gut microbiome has on us in ways still undiscovered. In his book, “How Not To Die,” in the infectious disease chapter (I believe it was), it’s stated how butchers and the families of butchers as well as those who “farm” animals for food are predisposed to disease later in life while those around animals as companions are healthier.
        As for this kid and his family, I have no idea of what happened to them or their medical history… I would feel awkward tracking him down and asking ;)

        Now back to my horror story… Suddenly, there was a crash of thunder!…

        1. My comment was to suggest that being exposed to germs may actually strengthen an immune system rather than weaken it.

          I’m sure you are aware that those who play in the mud as children are much less likely to become ill than children who have been raised in a sterile-ly environment.

          It’s that old sayin’ “that which doesn’t kill me makes me stronger” mentality.
          ——————————————————————————————————
          Now back to my horror story… Suddenly, there was a crash of thunder!…
          ——————————————————————————————————
          Oh! So it was a dark and stormy night… ‘-)

          1. “I’m sure you are aware that those who play in the mud as children are much less likely to become ill than children who have been raised in a sterile-ly environment.”
            – – – – – – – – –

            My show-off younger brother used to claim, “I eat dirt. I eat worms.” Never saw him eat a worm, but did see him swallow some dirt. And I made a playhouse out of an old coal shed in our backyard. We dragged out the remaining coal and I tidied it up as best I could. The black coal fumes or whatever would later show up in my nose. :-(

            I also threw together a tasty apple pie while playing in this little house. The crust consisted of raw white flour and a little water. Paste, in other words. To that I added some apple slices and a little cinnamon. The neighborhood gang swore they really liked it. If they got sick later, they never let on. I grew up in a different era, to be sure.

            1. LOL!

              Yes, a different era altogether!

              My parents would have been arrested for leaving us in cars without car seats or seat belts.

              We had a race car hauler where the door wouldn’t close so one of us kids had to hold it closed on the highway.

              I am not in favor of things like that, but we grew up when kids walked around town alone all day long and didn’t have bike helmets or so many things.

              lucky or blessed that nobody got seriously injured.

          2. True, true.. but mud is a far cry from a rotting carcass forced to live in their’s and others’ excrements in their previous life. Apart from that kind of stuff, we probably agree on the over cleaning mentality… they’re putting lysol in laundry detergent now! Smh…

      2. Many of us here are over 65. Apparently we are at greater risk from food poisoning than younger adults

        ‘According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 48 million persons get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized, and 3,000 die from foodborne infection and illness in the United States each year. Many of these people are children, older adults, or have weakened immune systems and may not be able to fight infection normally.

        By the age of 65, many of us have been diagnosed with one or more chronic conditions, such as diabetes, arthritis, cancer, or cardiovascular disease, and are taking at least one medication. The side effects of some medications or the chronic disease process may weaken the immune system, causing older adults to be more susceptible to contracting a foodborne illness.

        After the age of 75 years and older, many adults often have a weakened immune system and are at an increased risk for contracting a foodborne illness.
        Essentially, as we age, our immune system and other organs in our bodies have become a bit sluggish in recognizing and ridding the body of harmful bacteria and other pathogens that cause infections, such as foodborne illness. Should older adults contract a foodborne illness, you are more likely to have a lengthier illness, undergo hospitalization, or even die.

        To avoid contracting a foodborne illness, older adults must be especially vigilant when handling, preparing, and consuming foods.’
        https://www.fda.gov/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/peopleatrisk/ucm312705.htm

        1. TG, that’s an interesting observation that adults over 65 are at greater risk for food poisoning. I’ve been vegetarian 46 years, my husband for 10 (since he met me), and more recently whole food plant based. And I’ve noticed that we rarely get “GI distress” (aka food poisoning). (knock wood. The one or two times in the past 10 years have been noteworthy for their rarity.) I thought it was either because we already had immunity from earlier illnesses, or because we don’t eat meat thereby decreasing our exposure to it and thus our risk of getting it.

          In any event, I will now pay more attention to how we handle our produce and other goods at the grocery store.

          Oh, and we no longer shake hands; we fist-bump instead. As recommended by the WHO. (And it’s very millennial or metro or some such thing.) Now, if we could only get people to stop coughing or sneezing into their hands.

          Oh, Please: If you cough or sneeze, Do it in your sleeves!

          1. “Oh, and we no longer shake hands; we fist-bump instead.”
            – – – – – –

            Way t’go, Dr. J! One time on one of our local buses a sort of emotionally-challenged dude got real friendly with some of us passengers. He sat in front of me. When he turned around and extended his paw, I smiled back but only fist-bumped him. Who knew where that hand had been, right? :-)

            This might have shook him up a bit, but who cares! Come to think of it, I haven’t seen him on the bus for quite a while.

        2. Tom,

          That is useful information.

          Yes, Dr. Greger has an oldie, but goodie audience on this site.

          Sometimes some precocious young people slip in.

          Mortality comes into focus as you get older.

          I agree with Dr. J.

          I had too many food allergies to ever know if I have had food poisoning.

          Going off meat and going off MSG and being careful with salad bars helped me not get sick from food, but I am a bit lazy with organic.

          I buy triple washed things, but I also buy other produce and forget to wash it at all before eating and I know organic has its own risks.

          This topic is good for me to hear because I do go to parties where they are putting chicken on the grill and offer me a veggie patty on the same grill and maybe the heat kills a lot of it, but there are a lot of things from spatulas and tongs and the grill side table, and kitchen counter, and fridge, and door handle before taking things outside, which I will ponder more thoughtfully.

  12. With Thanksgiving Holidays coming up I would like to know if Turkey is lumped in with chicken or if it has a different risk for spreading disease?

    Also, if I buy chicken parts (for my cats) I try to remember to coat my hands and forearms with coconut oil. It has anti-bacterial properties.

  13. While we are on the subject of transferring germs to our hands, I would like to make a suggestion that when exiting a store with a push door, raise your hands to the highest reach you can and push from there. You will likely encounter no germs from up there.

    And when pulling one of those square D shaped handles, grab either at the bottom or the top of the D. Better still, wear leather gloves, especially in the winter.

    1. I live in an apartment complex that has a garbage chute on every floor. What I’ve taken to doing is, I cover the hand that opens the door to the garbage chute with a small plastic bag, and then do the tossing. It’s no big deal..easy enuf to do.

      But back to supermarket carts: I always use one or two of those disinfectant wipes that the stores in my area offer the customers near their front doors. I’ve seen females put their practically bare-butted babies in the top area, where I usually put groceries. Don’t know if swiping down really helps, but at least it’s SOMEthing.

      1. YR,

        Yes, that is where my groceries go, too.

        I am not really a germophobe, but I do enough to never get sick and I haven’t been sick in years.

        I was a caretaker, so you learn to wipe everything with a handle or a push button.

        At one point when my grandmother was nearing the end of her life, every visiting nurse and aide and relative who helped me got sick for a few months, but my grandmother and I didn’t get sick.

        She was a nurse after her husband died, so she was better at cleaning handles and washing hands than I ever will be.

        1. In countries where they speak English (other than the US obviously), a caretaker is usually what you in the US would call a janitor.

          We’d normally call someone who provides care to family/others a ‘carer’ or ‘caregiver’.

          So when you write that you were a caretaker, I assume that you don’t mean janitor?

          It gets very confusing. When we talk about ‘fags’, you guys often get the wrong idea. When you talk about ‘fannies’, we often get the wrong idea. And of course when you say you use gas to fuel you cars, we think that you have found a very innovative and environementally sound solution to the flatulence probeem.

          1. Tom,

            Yes, it leads to some funny misinterpretations.

            I will say though, I was also OFTEN the janitor to my grandmother.

            Anyone who has taken care of the elderly for an extended period of time will understand that elder care is like infant care with a bigger poop issue. It leads to silly Depends jokes, though I didn’t use Depends with her, because I wanted something I could actually depend on.

            1. Yes, Tony Robbins held one of his big events in Sydney (Australia) some years ago.

              A friend who attended it told me that, at the beginning of the event, Robbins told people to stand up and ‘pat the fanny’ of the person next to them. That caused a fair bit of confusion and a lot of laughter, apparently. I don’t know if anybody was arrested for actually doing so, though.

                1. Can I ask what he actually meant by that?

                  We have it for bottom end and I thought England had it for Vagina?

                  I don’t understand anything he could have been trying to get people to do to the person next to them, which wouldn’t be R-rated at the least.

                  1. Yes, he apparently meant just pat the bottom of the person next to you – presumably to encourage intimacy and break down barriers. Normally, those people (ie presenters at personal development seminars) just say hug the person next to you but it’s all much the same idea I suppose.

                    Yhat’s right, though, in Australia and the UK etc it means vagina/pussy. Perhaps he forgot that he wasn’t in the US.

                    1. Tellin’ jokes now, are we? My (retired) dentist gave me one an elderly female (!) patient told him:

                      “Three guys were lined up outside a movie theater. The guy at the end started to rub the back of the dude in front of him. Dude whirled around and said, “Why did you do that?” To which the touchy-feely guy replied, “I’m a massage therapist; I thought I could be helpful while we wait.” Dude said, “Well, I’m a lawyer and you don’t see me screwing the guy in front of me, do you?” ;-)

                    2. I don’t buy the “forgot” story.

                      You forget that I am a creationist conspiracy theorist.

                      There is no way that any professional anywhere from the USA of his caliber goes around telling people to pat each other on the behind.

                      He had to be intentionally figuring out how to benefit from the language barrier.

                      Shake hands. Give a hug. Are the only two EVER given.

                      Even at artsy fartsy touchy feelie events and churches.

                      There might be some sexual retreats someplace in some state, where someone throws that in, but that is so far away from acceptable in the mainstream USA that I think he went for the laugh.

                    3. Tom,

                      Night clubs, comedy clubs and certain contact sports would be where a pat on the bottom comment could be used in the USA. Adult humor and contact sports.

                      We do have a notion of patting someone on the back, higher up as an expression of congratulations. A way of saying “Good job” but we teach our kids in school no touching each other’s private parts.

                    4. Deb

                      Yes, I suspect that my friend was pulling my leg when he told me that story.

                      But it was such a good story that I thought it was worth repeating anyway.

  14. The meat juice stain on the conveyor belt is a good place to start awakening. People think they are carnivores, but that is like saying the are fish because they have built a submarine. The meat “submarine” is technology. Without cooking and utensils, people would have mechanical difficulties and could not prove they are carnivores. “Cooking” is technology. A knife is technology. When was the last time you saw a person laying on the floor chewing on the insides of a smelly cow surrounded by angry flies? The stain of meat juice on the conveyor belt comes also from not perfected technology. It looks natural when not questioned. If you were born in a city of crazy people, being crazy would be normal. Hey they can prove anything by just being alive.

    1. Another safety suggestion… do your grocery shopping in the early a.m. I do that and not only do I avoid the crowds, but I notice the cashiers wipe the conveyor belt often when there is no line.

      And come to think of it, I don’t see many shoppers ahead of me buying meat unless there is an immediate holiday coming up. There seems to be more fruit and veggie shoppers, early.

      1. Lonie

        Those are useful suggestions.

        I suspect avoiding the bathrooms, which are bound to have been used by the meat department and which also don’t have lids, which Dr Oz showed means the poop is in the air for 20 minutes would be good, if you are going to be handling the produce ahead of me.

        It is going to be that the chicken germs are everywhere, because it is so popular in the American diet.

    2. I agree Panchito.

      Most people would not eat animals if there wasn’t technology.

      The concept of even trying to kill one or bite through the skin without sharp utensils. The concept of not being able to refrigerate the leftovers or wash in a sink after.

      Even with technology, many people can’t eat lobster if they have to be the one to kill it.

      I know that hunters and fishermen do get used to it, but my uncle was a hunter of deer and it took a fairly big vehicle to get it home and a very big freezer to keep it until ready to eat.

    3. “People think they are carnivores, but that is like saying the are fish because they have built a submarine. The meat “submarine” is technology.”

      Exactly. I mean come people.. if you can’t even safely HANDLE your so-called food, what makes you think you’re actually meant to eat it…

      1. “Exactly. I mean come people.. if you can’t even safely HANDLE your so-called food, what makes you think you’re actually meant to eat it…”

        That is a very good line.

        My chicken eating sister-in-law told me that she was in the ER. (Which my brother who I see and talk to every day neglected to tell me.)

        That made it three people in my circle who went to the ER.

        Anyway, I talked to my sister-in-law about rice and beans again, because she hates vegetables and fruit and has been doing Keto, but she told me a few months ago that she used to like rice and she went, because of numbness in the left arm and thought she was having a heart attack or stroke and said that the last hospital visit was $3000 and this one had more tests and she thinks it could be $6000.

        Saving money on ER visits is a better motivator for her than health.

        1. It was for me, too.

          I am good at generating care to take care of other people, but never ate for health for myself and it just wasn’t strong enough of a motivator to help me succeed until there was a monetary benefit.

          I don’t want to be in debt and all of my friends have medical debt.

          1. I still can’t sleep.

            3 in the morning.

            Ended up watching videos and pondering my sister-in-law and my friend being in the ER and spending that much money, but not getting any useful information.

            Worse, because they never ate fruit or vegetables and were raised on junk food, they can’t do WFPB or they would have already.

            Instead, they chose Keto and have their doctors think it is a good idea, even though my sister-in-law has Diverticulosis and is pre-Diabetic.

            This greater culture, where the diet wars are serious wars in a way where most people aren’t educated enough to understand who to listen to.

            Tom, I am a conspiracy theorist about how society became like this.

            1. DEb

              There is a difference between actual conspiracies and various vested interests pushing ideas and products which provide financial and other bebefits to them.

              The cospiracy nuts believe for example that the pharmaceutical industry, the FDA and the World Health Organization ‘know’ that vaccines are useless to prevent disease and have serious widespread adverse health effects. However, they conspire together to hide the facts from the public in order to profit from vaccine sales. Or the cholesterol crowd who believe that all the evidence about high blood cholesterol has been ‘faked’ in order to sell statins and that high blood cholesterol The fact that this would require a world-wide conspiracy involving control of scientists, universities, prefessional medical associations, national health authorities etc etc for over a century (and non-one has blown the whistle on this in all that time) doesn’t faze them one little bit.

              However, while the meat and dairy industries do spend a lot of money promoting their products (and buying political influence), I get the impression that the people in those industries genuinely believe that their products are healthy, desirable and necessary. There doesn’t seem to be any conspiracy there just a demonstration of the truth of Upton Sinclair’s observation that ‘”It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” Then there are the people who come up with all sorts of reasons to cintinue eating meat etc You only have to look at some of the posters here who sincerely believe meat is healthy and necessary. Or our own family members for that matter. No conspiracy necessary to explain these behaviours – just human cognitive biases. In fact if we are going to be honest, a WFPB diet should contain some small amount of animal foods if we don’t supplement or eat fortified foods, to ensure we get enough B12,zinc, iodine etc for optimal health.

              A conspiracy would require collusion to deliberately hide the facts – look at some of the tobacco industry or some of the big polluters (eg
              Erin Brochovich) which deliberately conspired to hide the facts in order to protect their profits. They could fairly be described as conspiracies.

              But the nuts come up with ridiculous claims about conspiracies – like eg ‘veganism’ is part of a UN depopulation agenda.
              https://the-wakeup-call.com/viewtopic.php?t=562

              Absurdity is the defining quality of the beliefs of the conspircy nuts. The fact that they are nuts doesn’t mean that there aren’t actual conspiracies out there but they aren’t that common and are very hard to keep secret for long.

              1. “In fact if we are going to be honest, a WFPB diet should contain some small amount of animal foods if we don’t supplement or eat fortified foods, to ensure we get enough B12,zinc, iodine etc for optimal health.”
                – – – – – – – – – —

                An interesting sentence to which I heartily agree. :-) I am curious to know what you mean by “small,” however.

                1. This is a matter of some debate in the WFPB diet world. No more than 10% of total calories coming from animal products appears to be widely agreed upon but the exact amount is not clear. There just isn’t enough research to say.

                  However, with the traditional Okinawan diet, animal foods provided fewer than 4% of total calories while, in the traditional Japanese diet, animal foods delivered fewer than 7% of total calories. Both diets were associated with long healthy lifespans.
                  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5859391_Caloric_Restriction_the_Traditional_Okinawan_Diet_and_Healthy_Aging_The_Diet_of_the_World's_Longest-Lived_People_and_Its_Potential_Impact_on_Morbidity_and_Life_Span

                  This suggests to me that the current Western practice of eating animal foods every day, let alone at every meal, is misplaced. I would have thought that the current mainstream dietary advice to consume to servingsof oily fish per week would nail it – but that’s just a persoanl opinion.

          2. You might want to show them this one from last month

            ‘(Reuters Health) – Older adults who eat a balanced diet with lots of fruits and vegetables may be less likely to develop frailty than their peers who fail to get enough vitamins from their food, a Spanish study suggests………………….
            And participants who got the lowest levels of vitamin C at the start of the study were 93 percent more likely to develop frailty than individuals who consumed the most foods rich in vitamin C like broccoli, Brussels sprouts, lemons and lychees.’
            https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/901130?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=129079FG&impID=1721939&faf=1

            You probably need to register with MedScape (free) to get access to this paper

  15. Symbolically, the food issue feels as if the whole country was about to have a weapon of mass destruction unleashed against it and it is a weapon that is really slow motion, like a Robot sweeper and all the people have to do is move out of the way, but my friends and relatives can’t do it and I know responsibility oriented people would say won’t do it and they would say can’t do it and wont even try.

    1. You have shown yourself incapable of understanding scientific papers and even a short abstract was beyond you.

      You are not in a position to judge other people’s understanding of topics when your own understanding is so poor. Still, why let a little thing like the facts get in the way of your opinions?

      1. BTW It’s Greger – you consistently refer to him as ‘Gregor’. If you can’t get the details right, how can anybody have any confidence that you get the big things right?

      2. Notice how TG thinks no one should be allowed to disagree with the Dr G. Doctors are human and make mistakes or are flat out wrong just like everyone else. Also much of what we believe to be ‘fact’ today’ will in fact turn out to be not by future generations as this has happened throughout history. And how did we learn? People questioned the status quo.

        Now take your over-defensive attitude and perhaps have the good doctor prescribe you a pair of testicles so you won’t get so easily offended at people exercising their first amendment rights and differing opinions on the internet, on a website comment board that does not require registration to post at that.

        1. Who exactly is the easily offended one again?

          The community guidelines here seem to be rather loosely enforced, but we’ll see about your comment.

          1. TG seems to think attacking people for posting anything critical or even making the simplest mistake when commenting is how to spend its time ON EVERY TOPIC DAY AFTER DAY. TG if anything is doing nothing but bullying people on this website.

            1. RB

              Disagreeing with people is perfectly normal and acceptable. It’s called a discussion. PCK disagreed (rather strongly and even insultingly) with Dr Greger. Aren’t I entitled to disagree with him in turn? And, more importantly, to list the factual errors in his posts? Arguing that I am not seems, well, hypocritical.

              You disagreed with me. OK. That’s fine too.

              I have also disagreed several times with Dr Greger about his discussion of the paper that claimed that chemotherapy has only a 1 to 2% succeess rate. .Also fine

              To be honest, you seem to be a perfectly reprsentative sample of the ‘alternative health’ crowd. By that, I mean you operate a blatant double standard. People of your persuasion can come here and post aggressive and even insulting posts and that’s seemingly fine with you. People can come here and post all sorts of false claims and 2=2=5 arguments and that’s fine too. But contradicting woo and disagreeing with people lauding all manner of dubious health gurus is apparently not fine with you. You seem to think that people whose opinions you find congenial should be allowed to express them without contradiction. That’s not how discussion boards work.

              You seem to think that referring to the evidence that shows these alternatve health claims are false or downright foolish is not fine. Well, learn to live with it. Advocates of unhealthy diets and false beliefs about fake cancer cures are encouraging people to adopt practices which may shorten their lives and damage their health. Such advocates need to be challenged.

              By the way, pray, do tell what kind of dietary beliefs you hold that lead you to find evidence-based arguments and exposing the problems with alternative health claims so offensive?

  16. An interesting report in Medscaape about a new paper on probiotics

    ‘Dr Bafeta told Medscape Medical News that some clinical trials and case reports have shown that probiotics, for instance, have been associated with a wide range of health complications, including “gastrointestinal events such as diarrhea, constipation, nausea, or abdominal pain; respiratory infection; inappropriate immune response in susceptible individuals; deleterious metabolic activities; and gene transfer.”

    Even death has been reported as a SAE related to microbiome modification, she said. “The PROPATRIA trial reported by Besselink et al (2008) reported a higher mortality rate in the probiotic treatment group than in the placebo-control group in patients with acute pancreatitis,” she noted. “The big issue is the huge uncertainty about the safety of these interventions, in particular when given to vulnerable patients, such as those who are immune-compromised, postsurgery, critically ill, or elderly.” Critically sick infants and those hospitalized for a long time are also especially vulnerable, she told Medscape Medical News.’
    https://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/900724?src=wnl_tpal_180825_mscpedu&impID=1721929

    1. TG, is there a way to read the article without logging in with a password (which I don’t have, as I haven’t subscribed)?

      There are oodles of probiotic supplements on the market now….even in gummies. True, they found that a lot of them don’t contain the zillions of little buggies they claim they do, and are pretty worthless for that reason. Does the article warn against taking those in general as opposed to the probiotics that are supposedly contained in fermented foods?

      Seems to me Dr. G. is very anti-kimchi because it gives Koreans cancer or something.

      1. YR

        As far as I can remember, all you do is register with the site (it’s free) and then you just access the site as per normal afterwards (there’s usually a cookie on your computer after registering that does away with the need to log in every time).

        Yes the article is basically about probiotic supplements rather than foods.

        I think Dr Greger’s reservations about kimchi relate to the higher rates of gastric and other cancers associated with high rates of kimchi consumption..
        https://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-kimchi-good-for-you/

        The problem may be the high salt content.and nitrites/nitrates, although certain fungi have also been implicated
        http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/21/6/905
        https://www.nature.com/articles/6605372

        There is however a lot of kickback from Koreans who argue that their famous foodstuff is in fact anticarcinogenic and promotes good health. – indeed cabbage and other vegetables almost certainly are and do. However, it’s the processing that seems to create the problems. In the 21st century, we can eat fresh cabbage all year round. I choose to eat frsh/frozen personally but there are an awful lot of pickled/fermented vegetable enthusiasts out there.

  17. Love your videos but why about chicken? I thought this website was plant-based only? We don’t have to worry about this!

  18. Fitness Delivered,

    Chickens and WFPB have overlapping concerns. It’s all about cross contamination to all of us entering the store, sharing a meal or even being in someone’s home who is not fastidious with poultry handling.

    Consider a wipe down of your cart to talking with your non-WFPB folks about kitchen habits. Salmonella and other bacterial contamination is no fun for anyone and only by changing the typical habits can we change the infection rates.

    Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger http://www.Centerofhealth.com

  19. I appreciate this information because while I’m vegetarian, my family is not. The only raw chicken I purchase is the pre-cut, bagged and frozen stuff. While I’m extremely careful with the contents, I’ve always assumed the exteriors of the bags in the frozen section are safe. Is there any data on this packaging?

    1. Laura, your comment brought to mind a practice that was in the news a number of years ago. That is, irradiating food to kill the germs. Whatever became of that and were there any studies done to show efficacy or harm?

  20. Laura,

    In a British study 7% of the outside of the bags containing chicken were found to be contaminated.https://www.food.gov.uk/other/year-1-of-a-uk-wide-survey-of-campylobacter-contamination-on-fresh-chickens-at-retail-february-2014-to-february-2015

    Speaking of packaging, the British have a unique approach of a touch free bag: https://www.today.com/food/scared-salmonella-touch-free-packaging-raw-chicken-here-t127198

    Shop safe and keep your other products clean.

    Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger http://www.Centerofhealth.com

  21. Dr Greger,

    I am so impressed that you have bent over backwards for your audience that you have given a chicken handling video.

    You have probably caused a few conspiracy theories and if you keep doing too many meat videos, I will want to start some myself, but this one was very useful.

    I am impressed that the researchers knew that we put the chicken down on the counter before putting it in the fridge.

    That counter move also happens again before cooking.

    the counter or table are like the front steps of the cooking world.

  22. I’m honestly very disappointed, Dr. Greger. Your time would be much better spent making videos about why not to eat meat then how to handle and eat it safely.

  23. Comments feature request… number each post so we can more easily find one we are responding to. I no longer respond by email since much of the formatting is stripped and can change the meaning of one’s post. But being able to see the numbers of each post would allow me to find the post I want to answer much quicker than having to slowly scroll through all posts looking for that certain one.

  24. Dr.Greger, thank you for the video, I do eat meat. Tried nuts, grains and greens and my teeth turned dark brown, never smoked in my life. Now, according to ancient traditional medicine, if a person is slim, he/she needs more grounding, nourishing food. Yes, seaweed might do it, but not for everyone, not for every “constitution” body type. Also, if you live in the Northern States, raw greens are too “cooling” during the cold seasons.

    I appreciate you look out for people who still eat meat, 3oz chicken/fish/ day. Prepared in a way to minimize AGEs.

    According to a reputable publication: “Fresh Produce Causes the Most Foodborne Outbreaks, Followed by Seafood.” https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/news/fresh-produce-causes-the-most-foodborne-outbreaks-followed-by-seafood/

  25. Sam,

    Can’t agree with you more regarding the need to find what works best for you, when it comes to your diet.

    Two comments on the food borne outbreaks issues. Yes fresh foods in the 2015 study were indeed high on the list and further investigation (2018) suggests that the source and practices (https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/news/cilantro-from-us-and-mexico-test-positive-for-cyclospora-bacteria-parasite/) might also be equally important.

    The takeaway from the CSPI article is that overall food safety is indeed high and it’s rare, considering the overall daily food intake, for the occasional contamination to occur and cause an actual illness. It could be argued that we are constantly under a barrage of bacterial and fungal assaults from our foods. However our daily experience of most meals is more symbiotic not pathogenic.

    The recent article, from the same magazine, highlights new testing for cyclospora and once again puts into perspective the need for sanitary farm and processing practices to minimize our exposure to pathogens.

    In terms of the Chinese and Ayurvedic medical approaches to heat or the cooling effects of food, I would suggest it’s all about the individual’s unique chemistry. I have seen patients who defy this contention and those who totally fit the mold.

    Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger http://www.Centerofhealth.com

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