Urinary Tract Infections from Eating Chicken

Urinary Tract Infections from Eating Chicken
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Can UTI-causing ExPEC E. coli bacteria be transferred human-to-human from those who eat chicken?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Only about one in four people have heard of Campylobacter, compared to 90% familiar with Salmonella. “Although the incidence of these two…gastrointestinal infections is amazingly high,” infecting more than a million Americans every year, “it is…outranked by the incidence of” a bug even fewer people have likely heard of: ExPEC–extraintestinal [meaning outside of the intestines, like as in causing bladder infections] pathogenic [meaning disease-causing] E. coli resulting in millions of infections annually. “[M]ultiple lines of evidence indicat[e] poultry [may be] a major food animal reservoir for [bacteria that cause] urinary tract infections” in people, as I explored about five years ago. This is based not only on studies showing these kinds of E. coli from commercial chicken meat and eggs can cause blood infections, brain infections, and urinary tract infections in mouse models, studies on women with multidrug-resistant urinary tract infections do report significantly more frequent retail chicken consumption. Similarly, elderly chicken eaters were significantly more likely to have Cipro-resistant bladder infections compared to those eating no chicken at all. Pork was also associated with increased risk, but not beef.

“There have been few observed associations between beef cattle or retail beef and human ExPEC [infections], suggesting that beef cattle are not a reservoir for human” bladder infections, whereas in chickens, of the up to 90% of chicken carcasses harboring E. coli, about 1 in 5 isolates tested “had the potential to cause [urinary tract infections].”

What about eggs? We know retail chicken meat “is contaminated with ExPEC isolates that resemble the strains that cause human infections,” but what about retail chicken eggs? Instead of one in five being ExPEC in chicken meat, it was more like just one in 20 among eggs—closer to down around pork or beef levels.

Researchers are so sure that chicken is the primary reservoir that when they find the same kind of strain in a vegetarian, they interpret that as people saying they’re vegetarian, but actually eating some chicken, or evidence of “human-to-human transmission,” or even shopping-cart-to-human transmission. Remember how most people fail to sanitize their hands after picking up a package of poultry in the grocery store? And so then, even “[a] shopper who’s not purchasing poultry could still be exposed” to poultry contamination, pushing the same cart after them. 

“It is difficult to estimate how much ExPEC exchange can be attributed to person-to-person contact” after a chicken consumer’s rectum has been colonized. Researchers went swabbing around public restrooms to try to quantify the risk—a thousand samples from 56 public restrooms in 33 establishments. They found lots of evidence of E. coli in general, particularly in public park restrooms and fast food joints—more than gas stations, which surprised me. But this was really surprising—women’s rooms were worse than men’s!

But only about 1% of the samples they took were positive for ExPEC bacteria, though they were recovered from non-toilet associated sites, that were not visibly contaminated. So, one might touch it with bare hands after like turning the faucet off after you’ve washed your hands, so the risk may not be fully eliminated by careful handwashing “or avoidance of fecal-appearing debris,” though that’s probably a good idea to avoid anyway. And, “using hand sanitizers after exiting the restroom,” not to mention in the meat aisle “after touching” a package of poultry, may offer additional protection.

What proportion of the seven million bladder infections every year in the U.S. are due to chicken meat? Like, “if no more chicken were consumed, how many E. coli UTIs would be prevented?” “[H]ow much would the prevalence decline?” It’s hard to tell because of “the time lag between the acquisition and asymptomatic colonization of the intestine with an ExPEC organism and the development of an infection.” So, you eat some contaminated chicken today, and the UTI-causing ExPEC bacteria may hang out in your colon for months before making its way into your bladder and triggering an infection. The reason we know it can take that long is by studying the intestinal population dynamics of UTI-causing E. coli between partners. “Increased rectal-rectal transfers… might be explained by the high levels of E. coli present in the urine of an infected woman,” which could then be transferred over depending on….certain intimate practices.

Bottom-line, there is “compelling evidence that retail meat, particularly poultry, serves as an important reservoir for human exposure to antibiotic-resistant E. coli that is causing UTIs”—urinary tract infections. Thus, instead of just UTIs, maybe we should call them foodborne UTIs or “FUTIs”—or maybe pronounced F.U.TIs.

Sure, we could decrease the burden of these foodborne bladder infections by developing some sort of ExPEC vaccine, or we could just cut down our contact with fresh or frozen poultry. No harm; no fowl.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Adobe Stock via Adobe. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Only about one in four people have heard of Campylobacter, compared to 90% familiar with Salmonella. “Although the incidence of these two…gastrointestinal infections is amazingly high,” infecting more than a million Americans every year, “it is…outranked by the incidence of” a bug even fewer people have likely heard of: ExPEC–extraintestinal [meaning outside of the intestines, like as in causing bladder infections] pathogenic [meaning disease-causing] E. coli resulting in millions of infections annually. “[M]ultiple lines of evidence indicat[e] poultry [may be] a major food animal reservoir for [bacteria that cause] urinary tract infections” in people, as I explored about five years ago. This is based not only on studies showing these kinds of E. coli from commercial chicken meat and eggs can cause blood infections, brain infections, and urinary tract infections in mouse models, studies on women with multidrug-resistant urinary tract infections do report significantly more frequent retail chicken consumption. Similarly, elderly chicken eaters were significantly more likely to have Cipro-resistant bladder infections compared to those eating no chicken at all. Pork was also associated with increased risk, but not beef.

“There have been few observed associations between beef cattle or retail beef and human ExPEC [infections], suggesting that beef cattle are not a reservoir for human” bladder infections, whereas in chickens, of the up to 90% of chicken carcasses harboring E. coli, about 1 in 5 isolates tested “had the potential to cause [urinary tract infections].”

What about eggs? We know retail chicken meat “is contaminated with ExPEC isolates that resemble the strains that cause human infections,” but what about retail chicken eggs? Instead of one in five being ExPEC in chicken meat, it was more like just one in 20 among eggs—closer to down around pork or beef levels.

Researchers are so sure that chicken is the primary reservoir that when they find the same kind of strain in a vegetarian, they interpret that as people saying they’re vegetarian, but actually eating some chicken, or evidence of “human-to-human transmission,” or even shopping-cart-to-human transmission. Remember how most people fail to sanitize their hands after picking up a package of poultry in the grocery store? And so then, even “[a] shopper who’s not purchasing poultry could still be exposed” to poultry contamination, pushing the same cart after them. 

“It is difficult to estimate how much ExPEC exchange can be attributed to person-to-person contact” after a chicken consumer’s rectum has been colonized. Researchers went swabbing around public restrooms to try to quantify the risk—a thousand samples from 56 public restrooms in 33 establishments. They found lots of evidence of E. coli in general, particularly in public park restrooms and fast food joints—more than gas stations, which surprised me. But this was really surprising—women’s rooms were worse than men’s!

But only about 1% of the samples they took were positive for ExPEC bacteria, though they were recovered from non-toilet associated sites, that were not visibly contaminated. So, one might touch it with bare hands after like turning the faucet off after you’ve washed your hands, so the risk may not be fully eliminated by careful handwashing “or avoidance of fecal-appearing debris,” though that’s probably a good idea to avoid anyway. And, “using hand sanitizers after exiting the restroom,” not to mention in the meat aisle “after touching” a package of poultry, may offer additional protection.

What proportion of the seven million bladder infections every year in the U.S. are due to chicken meat? Like, “if no more chicken were consumed, how many E. coli UTIs would be prevented?” “[H]ow much would the prevalence decline?” It’s hard to tell because of “the time lag between the acquisition and asymptomatic colonization of the intestine with an ExPEC organism and the development of an infection.” So, you eat some contaminated chicken today, and the UTI-causing ExPEC bacteria may hang out in your colon for months before making its way into your bladder and triggering an infection. The reason we know it can take that long is by studying the intestinal population dynamics of UTI-causing E. coli between partners. “Increased rectal-rectal transfers… might be explained by the high levels of E. coli present in the urine of an infected woman,” which could then be transferred over depending on….certain intimate practices.

Bottom-line, there is “compelling evidence that retail meat, particularly poultry, serves as an important reservoir for human exposure to antibiotic-resistant E. coli that is causing UTIs”—urinary tract infections. Thus, instead of just UTIs, maybe we should call them foodborne UTIs or “FUTIs”—or maybe pronounced F.U.TIs.

Sure, we could decrease the burden of these foodborne bladder infections by developing some sort of ExPEC vaccine, or we could just cut down our contact with fresh or frozen poultry. No harm; no fowl.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Adobe Stock via Adobe. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Doctor's Note

Here’s the video I referred to: How to Shop for, Handle, & Store Chicken

But wait, who eats undercooked chicken? It’s typically a cross-contamination problem: Food-Poisoning Bacteria Cross-Contamination

There is particular concern these days about antibiotic-resistant infections: Past the Age of Miracles: Facing a Post-Antibiotic Age

Would buying organic be better? See: Superbugs in Conventional vs. Organic Chicken

What about treating UTIs? Can Cranberry Juice Treat Bladder Infections? Check out the video!

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

65 responses to “Urinary Tract Infections from Eating Chicken

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  1. This is the first time I have ever laughed out loud during one of the NF videos. The pronunciation at t = 5:25 is hilarious :-)

    But overall, how animal food production is polluting our environment is a very serious issue.

  2. I am well aware of your preferred choice in B12, Dr. Greger, the cyanocobalamin, but I am wondering
    if there is anyone here who feels they have benefited from the Methylcobalamin form of the vitamin,
    more so than the cyanocobalamin form. The cyanide issue is not a concern of mine. It is well established
    that the level of cyanide in cyanocobalamin is very low, and in most cases should not be a concern.
    My only concern with Methyl form is that it only produces half of the “b12 that occurs in nature” while the
    cyanocobalamin form get converted to both forms of B12 in the body, which seems better to me. Anyway,
    anyone here prefer the methyl-form, and have you been doing this longterm? Thanks.

    1. Nina,

      We have had people on this site test insufficient when supplementing with Methyl. I have seen a few people who have ended up with mouth problems. We have a verified case of blood blisters from supplementing Methyl and having it be insufficient. Another person is checking to see if the mouth cracks might go away by changing from Methyl to Cyano. Studies showed it didn’t always work.

      The person with a blood blister said that Methyl worked while they were drinking fortified milk with cyanocobalamin but it failed when they stopped drinking the fortified milk.

      The Methyl form is not more efficient. The Methyl prefix has to be removed during metabolism, then another Methyl is placed on it again, so it isn’t more efficient. If it was more efficient, why would you have to take more of it than Cyano and why does Cyano test better at improving B-12 levels?

      The fact that Cyano works better and that you can use less Cyano tells me that the only reason it might be more efficient for a small segment of society is if someone has dirty genes and needs Methyl donors, but too many Methyl donors can cause problems, too and Methylcobalamin isn’t enough by itself and doesn’t always work and you have to make sure to take more of it than Cyano.

      A researcher at PubMed said that the Adesenocobalamin needs to be added to Methylcobalamin because they both have different functions. Cyanocobalamin is more completely protective. If you are afraid of the cyanide, which is something like 3000 times less cyanide than you would find in your flaxseed, then you can have hydroxocobalamin onhand. I am not afraid of the cyanide. People are eating apricot seeds and taking B-17 which has so much more cyanide and children sometimes do end up in the ER from B-17 but that is few and far in between. It happens enough to respect cyanide poisoning as an issue, but what I noticed is that nobody anywhere is being admitted to the ER from being poisoned by their B-12. They are needing medical care when they are B-12 deficient and people can rot their spinal cords and even die if they don’t get it.

      Cyano was more efficient at improving B-12 levels than Hydroxo and Methyl doesn’t always work.

      If you have dirty genes, you need a Methyl Donor so it won’t hurt to add Methyl to Cyano or Methyl plus Adesenocobalamin or Cyano plus Hydroxo if the real issue is fear of cyanide poisoning.

      1. If you know you are low in Glutamate, I think was the other thing, which could make you consider the level of cyanide in food.

        Alzheimer’s patients, I think are low in Glutamate and Glutamate is part of the cleaning the cyanide out of the body process.

        Cyanide is in a lot of foods and the body is supposed to handle it very well.

        This thought is mine. I haven’t heard any doctor say it. If any medical person wants to correct it as a thought process, I welcome it.

      2. Dr. Greger was in a youtube video interview not long ago and with his short answer on B12, methyl vs. cyano, it seemed more like he simply recommends cyano because there is a lot more research done with it and there was one study where methyl didn’t help those deficient but the study was too small to count. Here’s the interview it was in I’m pretty sure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enCYBQrtM48

    2. TOPIC IS CHICKEN AND UTI’S. When are people going to figure out that the DOCTOR does not use this forum to give out free medical advice to off topic rude posters seeking such?

      1. The Comment Etiquette states

        ‘The intention of the comment section is to allow all members to share their stories, questions, and feedback with others in a welcoming, engaging, and respectful environment. Off-topic comments are permitted, in hopes more experienced users may be able to point them to more relevant videos that may answer their questions. Vigorous debate is welcome so long as participants can disagree respectfully.’

        In any case, Nina did not seek medical advice, she asked whether other posters here about their experiences with B12.

        Your post unfortunately gives the impression of deliberate mischief making. Which is not at all surprising give your previous posts here.

      2. Reality bites needs a reality check… that was a little cheesy but it’s late and I’m too sleepy to resist the pun! People aren’t seeking free medical advice oh genius one, they’re communicating and learning. And what with your glaringly high IQ, I would imagine you’d have seen the irony in your statement considering this entire site is pretty much DEDICATED to FREE medical advice……….

    3. Nina, someone who seems to know their stuff here (a commenter) explained in the comments under a video where people were discussing B12 (the video was not B12 related, I wish I could remember the video… it was a few months ago or so) that the methyl is converted to both forms that we need, I believe they provided links… I don’t know much about it and I hope Dr. Greger does a more in-depth updated version on B12, but the commenter’s explanation made me feel better about the fact that I take methyl. The reason I still take it and not the cyano kind is simply because I haven’t been able to find a cayno B12 without a bunch of additives I’m not comfortable taking on a regular basis. So I take Garden of Life’s My Kind Organics B12 spray once a week at the weekly dosage Dr. Greger recommends except I double it just to be safe. I actually got the numbers wrong so for a long time I was taking only a few sprays once a week and seemed to be doing fine. Since upping my dose, I’m not sure if there was an improvement or any difference, all I know is that I’m really healthy and seem to be doing really well. I have no symptoms of a B12 deficiency and I don’t eat fortified foods. I do want to get my B12 tested just because I’m curious about what will show up and really to just confirm what I suspect, that the methyl and its dosage is working well for me. I do wish they’d make the cyano without all the additives though and I also wish there would be more human research on B12.
      Anyone who knows of any cyano B12 brands with a pure ingredients list and that’s a trusted company, please share! I know Dr. Greger and his team do not do brand recommendations but I REALLY think for B12, considering the poorly regulated supplement industry, it’s a must needed exception.

  3. Nina: My multivitamin has cyanocobalamin, and once a week I take methylcobalamin, just in case my body, due to age, has become unable to convert cyanocobalamin into the methyl form efficiently enough. Having said that, I’m not sure what you mean by “it only produces half of the “b12 that occurs in nature” “. My understanding is that the B12 we get from food is hydroxycobalamin, which the body converts into the two active forms, methylcobalamin and adinosylcobalamin.

    1. yes, the adinosylcobalamin form of B12 is not received by those who rely solely on taking the methylcobalamin B12 pill,
      but those who take the cyanocobalamin receive both the methyl and adinosylcobalamin when the body converts the cyano B12
      to these two forms. So, it makes sense that the methylobalamin form of B12 is actually inferior, and leaves someone exposed to’
      not getting the complete B12 package.

      1. and the methyl form is known to just benefit neurological and brain functions, and the adinosylcobalamin is what helps with
        energy production, so it makes sense that cyanocobalamin is the best form of B12, as it contains both of the B12’s, when coverted
        in the body.

        1. Nina, that is interesting info and I’m anxious to get my blood tested. But I will say that I have extremely good energy so reading that made me feel better about my current supplement. If someone does know of a good cyano brand without a lot of additives or any bad additives, please do share because I haven’t been able to find one. I don’t and will not take multivitamins though so it would have to a be pure B12 for me.

    1. Laughing,

      I think there were much funnier videos, but this one shows that Dr Greger knows when to be a cunning linguist and when to refrain.

          1. Can I ask why you don’t listen to the videos?

            LOL!

            Are you the person who hated Dr. Greger’s voice or something?

            I am laughing because you have to miss all of the comic timing reading the transcripts.

            I read them after watching the video to gather specific information, but I am here for the free entertainment.

            1. Not laughing now.

              I will be serious.

              Are you just here for the information? Or are you more of a verbal learner?

              I find Dr. Greger’s style easier to learn from than almost anyone else’s because he is entertaining.

              I was thinking about that earlier because I am no longer confused at all about B-12. I have a complete answer, which came from hanging around long enough. I was thinking about a Youtube video of a group of doctors talking about B-12 and they didn’t have an answer. I remember all of them looking at each other and they didn’t come up with an answer at that time and I think Dr. McDougall said that they have been wrestling with this for 40 years and I finally feel comfortable with having enough information to give a page-long answer myself.

              1. Hi Deb. Yes, I’m here solely for the information. I subscribe to a slew of ‘talking” vlogs, so several voices come at me throughout the day (or as much time as I give to it). Also, yes, I’m the one with sensitive hearing; the sounds of their voices stay with me, whether I like it or not.

                So if I’m offered a chance to read a transcript, I’ll jump at the transcript instead. Yeah, I’m fully aware that Dr. G. is a funny, funny guy. :-)

                1. YR,

                  I am like that with images if they are combined with emotions.

                  I could not do horror movies. I accidentally saw three seconds of the second Silence of the Lambs movie.

                  I don’t have my grandmothers type of dementia where i would think things are in the room, but photos of Vietnam or the face of Charles Manson or the images of the animals being tortured in Eating You Alive are so hard to get out of my head that I close my eyes at commercials for scary movies.

                  I read my friends horror movie and wasn’t bothered by it but would have been if I went to see it.

      1. Apple was found not all that long ago to be providing updates which had the effect of lowering their phones battery capacity. They justified it as being for some other concern to my recollection.
        By my take it was to incentivize more phone buying.
        So it may even be beyond planned obsolescense. A on line virus protection company back in the day, also sold software to speed up your computer.Before they went out of business their products would also slow down your computer, making the buying of the speed up software much more likely. Peoples would hack sites and then try to sell antihacking software. This thing, I think brings out the worst in human nature.

    1. They say that you pee it out.

      But I think there was a hint in one video that if you have kidney and liver problems, yes, would be the answer.

      Even without those, I wouldn’t be mega-dosing cyano. I suspect it would need to be thousands of times the RDA to cause problems. I did have one multivitamin which used thousands of times the RDA of B-12. I don’t take that multivitamin anymore, out of respect for cyanide being a real thing.

      It didn’t harm me, but if I took that and also ate a lot of flaxseed, and maybe things like millet and if I was eating Apricot seeds, suddenly, I could get problems with it.

        1. Actually, I would like to know if all B-12 caused Cancer at high dosages or if it was just cyano.

          i would also like to know if the honocysteine affecting level was anything close to the Cancer level.

          So I guess I have thst issue left to reconcile.

          1. If it ended up being the cyanide to cause Cancer then it would put a nail in the coffin of B-17 and Apricot seeds and it would put a ? Near high doses of flax seeds.

            1. “Using more than 55 micrograms daily appeared to almost quadruple lung-cancer risk.” in male smokers.

              “Why or how would B vitamins increase a person’s risk of cancer?

              I asked Brasky what he thought was going on. It’s all hypothetical, and he has no clear idea bout the sex discrepancy. What he does know is that B vitamins all contribute enzymes and coenzymes to a metabolic pathway that breaks down folate in order to make the bases that comprise DNA. The pathway also regulates the expression of genes (by creating methyl groups that can essentially turn genes on and off). When we have too little of these B vitamins, this pathway can go wrong, leading to problems like incorporation of the wrong types of bases into DNA, which can cause breaks in the strands, and, in theory, lead to cancer.

              Deficiency can also mean genes that should be inhibited are no longer inhibited, also potentially meaning cancer. Sufficiency of certain vitamins is important in cancer prevention, but avoiding excess appears to be similarly important.

              Among smokers, who are already exposed to carcinogens, the effect of taking anything that impairs these cellular processes could be even more likely to lead to cancer.

              The research team is quick to note that the doses of B vitamins in question are enormous. The U.S. Recommended Dietary Allowance for B6 is 1.7 milligrams per day, and for B12 it’s 2.4 micrograms. The high-risk group in the study was taking around 20 times these amounts.

              That could seem nonsensical, except that these are the doses for sale at healthy-seeming places like Whole Foods and GNC. Many sellers offer daily 100-milligram B6 pills. B12 is available in doses of 5,000 micrograms.”

              Okay, so now I need to go back to what goes wrong when people take too many methyl donors maybe.

              Interesting.

              They said:

              “Because of this, many individuals, whether on their own, or at the recommendation of their healthcare practitioner, have sought genetic testing for MTHFR and other genes related to methylation and begun supplements to correct their supposed “methylation deficiency” based solely on their genetic results. This is a fundamentally flawed approach, since genes do not tell you about functional methylation capacity. Just because a patient has an SNP that might predispose them to impaired methylation does not mean they actually have impaired methylation. In fact, they could have completely normal methylation! On the other hand, a person who has no SNPs in their methylation genes could have severe methylation imbalance and require treatment.”

              “For several years, high-dose methyl donors have been viewed as the standard method for treating methylation issues. In the last several years, my viewpoint has evolved, and I now believe there is sufficient evidence to suggest that long-term high-dose methyl donor supplementation can be harmful. Like many nutrients, methylation appears to follow a U-shaped curve, where both deficiency and excess cause pathology. While hypomethylation is associated with many different problems, hypermethylation may be equally problematic. What we really need is methylation balance.

              The truth is, we don’t yet have the knowledge to say that methylation needs to increase in area X and decrease in area Y. It’s also far too simplistic to assume that increasing methyl donors like folate and other B vitamins will inevitably lead to hypermethylation because the control of methylation is complex, involving DNA-methyltransferases, histones, and other regulatory proteins (4). In fact, several folate-requiring enzymes are actually inhibited by excess substrate (5); modest increases in cellular folate concentration activate these enzymes, whereas large cellular folate concentrations inhibit them.

              Enzyme activity isn’t the only concern. In an animal model, both folate deficiency and over-supplementation were found to cause DNA damage (6). Excess folate intake has been linked to risk of nerve damage in older adults with B12 deficiency (7), and unmetabolized folic acid in plasma was associated with reduced natural killer cell cytotoxicity in postmenopausal women (8). It has even been hypothesized that excess folic acid supplementation could be a risk factor for autism (9).”

              Okay, how are Methionine and MTHFR related? Can someone explain? I came to a sentence linking them together and want to put a Cancer in male smokers? on the page, but I don’t even know how the two things intersect.

              “Taken together, our results indicate that DNA methylation patterns in undifferentiated spermatogonia, including SSCs, are relatively stable in culture over time under conditions of altered methionine and MTHFR levels.”

              1. I thought all of the B-12 were 5000 micrograms.

                That is what the ones I saw were.

                I am not a male who smokes, but the B-12’s where I bought it were all that high or more.

              2. I looked up B-12 and testosterone and I looked up high testosterone and Cancer.

                And high B-12 levels makes Cancer more aggressive.

                Glycosylation I think was the word.

                So that could be why it kills males and not females.

                1. Vegan males who smoke really would need special instructions about B-12.

                  They really are in the proverbial damned if they do and damned if they don’t relationship with B-12. And Christians hate using that sentence, but I can’t think of a way to say it meaning die if you do and die if you don’t and hopefully won’t be damned when you die.

                    1. YR,

                      Sleep is something I don’t understand.

                      Trying to, but it has been so long that it is like a foreign concept.

    2. Yes, this article references potential side effects….https://vitamins.lovetoknow.com/Side_Effects_of_Too_Much_Vitamin_B12

      But that said, I have never heard of lethal doses of B-12, nor study to that effect.
      Most I think regarding overdose, is from the injectable sort, which would tend to have much more concentrated forms. This is prescribed to combat overt deficiency.
      Usually vitamins/minerals work in synergic fashion the overuse of one may result in depletion of another. But if ones diet is sound, WFPB, likely other B vitamins are provided in sufficient amount to not cause a problem with a daily supplement of B-12. I have not heard of this specific from B-12 but in general it is something to keep in mind. Dr Greger recommends a one dose supplement only once per week, as we store this in our body.

      Vegans do need to take it. Excess is not necessary. Some sports professionals do take excess but usually for thought performance enhancing benefit.
      College wrestlers used to take it way back in the day in gross amounts to increase reaction time. Though I don’t know if any study showed that effect it was widely taken.
      Those taking illegal drugs also back in the day would take it to enhance a high. That also is untested.
      Chances of side effects in any event seem very very low.

    3. Hi, ron. You can find everything on this site related to vitamin B-12 here: https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/b12/ It is generally accepted that vitamin B-12 in excess of bodily needs is excreted in urine and feces.
      According to the Institutes of Medicine, the people who determine the Dietary Reference Intakes for nutrients, no Tolerable Upper Limit has been set for vitamin B-12 due to a lack of evidence for adverse effects, as you can see in this table: http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Activity%20Files/Nutrition/DRI-Tables/4_%20UL%20Values_Vitamins%20and%20Elements.pdf?la=en
      Likewise, the NIH consumer fact sheet on vitamin B-12 states, “Vitamin B12 has not been shown to cause any harm.” You can find that here: https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-Consumer/ I hope that helps!

      1. CK..your second reference states specifically this….” Due to a lack of suitable data, ULs could not be established for vitamin K, thiamin, riboflavin, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and carotenoids. In the absence of a UL, extra caution may be warranted in consuming levels above recommended intakes”
        This is written in smaller print under your graph.

        I did not make it up but simply copied and pasted from your own link.
        It is recognized vit B-12 overuse is showing a extremely rare incidence of side effects, but that does not mean that they cannot occur and do occur in susceptible individuals.
        To my understanding, to repeat this is usually found when it rarely occurs due to the injectable form of this vitamin not the by mouth or sub Q form.

        1. Here from medical news today, are listed, the potential side effects from B-12 shots. Many of these are shot specific, in that generally they refer to any shot administered but some are specific to B-12. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318216.php

          Granted, even in shot form, the incidents of adverse affects from overdose are extremely small, extremely small, does not infer non existent.
          NIH statements are generally aimed at a general normally found situation in the general population and addressed by health care professionals as reflective of that. Which does not infer exception situations do not or cannot exist.

          1. https://reference.medscape.com/drug/vitamin-b12-nascobal-cyanocobalamin-344418#5
            This link references in more specific fashion a couple of potential problems with administration. With one prescribed drug it may increase tendency for loss of potassium and in a very rare form of eye disease of genetic origin leber hereditary neuropathy, it has been used for treatment potential but also has some evidence for the production of optic nerve atrophy of sudden origin.

            Again very rare, but these things do exist.

            1. This specific referenced above mentions the interaction(very rare) with potassium in some peoples…..”If you have severe anemia, this medication may rarely cause low potassium levels in the blood (hypokalemia) as your body makes new red blood cells. Tell your doctor right away if any of these unlikely but serious side effects occur: muscle cramps, weakness, irregular heartbeat.”

              Medication refers to the cyno form of B-12 this by mouth.

              1. “Use with caution in patients with Leber’s disease; B12 treatment may result in rapid optic atrophy”

                …. of course NIH is not addressing concerns like these as they are very rare.

                1. To conclude…there is evidence of adverse affects just not terminal adverse affects….” due to a lack of evidence for adverse effects, as you can see in this table:”
                  Though lethal dose standard testing may not be produced, and no LDL level than available, does not suggest other adverse affects such as those noted do not exist.

  4. What works for me:

    After numerous episodes of hematuria, I have found that:
    org. pumpkin puree PLUS org. kale PLUS org. pure cranberry juice
    prevent visibly bloody urine.

      1. LOL!

        That must have been a mystery!

        I was sitting out on my patio with my dog last night and saw something which looked like 2 baby carrots dipped in chocolate and I thought it was from my dog’s poop, and went to clean it up.

        It turned out to be a bush, which I had removed when I put new siding on the house.

        I haven’t memorized the plant science to know the correct terminology, but it had pushed up through the mulch and genuinely looks like chocolate covered baby carrots so far. I am trying to remember what the bush looked like.

  5. I wonder if using a bidet including washing the perineum with soap and water after a bowel movement would reduce UTIs, especially in women who have a greater risk of self contamination of the urethra with fecal material wiping with toilet paper? Of course, avoiding chicken would be helpful. In public bathrooms automated taps and open doors are helpful or using a paper towel to touch areas contaminated by lack of proper handwashing may be helpful. As an MD myself, I was extremely fastidious about not touching anything in a hospital toilet, or elsewhere, with my bare hands after washing. Some organisms such as C Diff are not destroyed with alcohol and soap and water are vital.

  6. Everyone is a ‘doctor’ or ‘MD’ on health sites. Everyone is a scientist of science sites. Everyone is a self proclaimed ‘expert’ on the internet and that means not much, especially considering that actual experts are far too busy working in their fields of expertise to waste time answering questions on the internet that may not even be from a human but a bot.

    Unless a site is operated by a doctor with easy to verify credentials such as the proprietor of this website, then I doubt what people type about themselves to be true. Fakebook is full of people who lie about themselves. Just sharing medical knowledge is not enough so they had to make claims to their own credibility which makes them very suspect. Anyone can type make believe credentials.
    Signed,
    Pope Francis

    1. Robery has been posting on this site for several years. His posts have always been measured and thoughtful. They also display an informed understanding of health issues. I see no reason to question his statement that he is a retired physician.

    2. I want to specifically mention this comment by Reality Bites is way way way off topic. “Everyone is a ‘doctor’ or ‘MD’ on health sites.”

      Luckily things like that are totally acceptable here ;) Not the personal slander inferred, but the going off topic. Picking on a retired doc…can we show in some fashion more poor form…I think not.

      Is this a health site? Well if it is, I want to state I firmly, am not, never have been, nor will be a doctor or MD. And I firmly pull most things I say without reference firmly out of my A^%….as any who know me will attest. If I was to claim a thing and heartily suggest this may be endeavored…. why would one stop with being only some retired doc…I would state my name is Mayo of mayo clinic and my brother is Don Harvard of Harvard studies, and my middle name is NIH…. why would one looking to deceive do so in such a slight manner???

      But no I suspect appeal to the rational will not apply here.

      But pose a thing I find as untruthful, when they appear to hold truth or represented, as truth when not appearing that, and regardless of lack of qualification, I will produce reference displaying that. So the argument becomes, not my qualification, but the qualification of all of my sources. And since very few if any endeavor, personal scientific study of the published sort….for most of us that suffices. It must you see.
      But if one uses only absolute qualification in things and only allow for absolute determinations by those of recognized irrefutable authority in any recognized fields…I expect this scope of reasoning will lead us in the end to only one authority of a mystical sort, god herself, as who really does have qualification in all things, and in all manners, to express only irrefutable truths. Why stop with medical specific knowledge….. must not one also have a doctorate in English to write the perfect word, doctorates in communication, as that is what we are doing, doctorates in philosophy math, statistics, as all these things may be mentioned?, So we must if that be the case, seeking only authority of highest qualification, we must all then spend our days all praying to some mystical characters who may set us straight. The pope perhaps? The grand ompah. My old cat who decidedly did think she was that thing.

      All the rest of us must muddle along in the middle searching for truth in things and doing the best we can with what we have.
      But hopefully engaging this thing in not poor form, but good form.
      I express if we want this thing of qualification, in all things of specific nature, we now have to accept only criticism of those with doctorates in criticism perhaps professional comedians to provide such…..So please in such manner excepting you are Daniel Tosh or Bill Burr, or some equal…. do refrain.
      Or is so engaging regardless, please note also ones lack in qualification to provide criticism, in such fashion ventured.

  7. Does organic well-cooked chicken cause problem also? The way Indian chicken is cooked takes around 1 hour time on the cooktop. I used to eat once in two weeks or more with the family of four sharing 1 to 1.5 kg of chicken while growing up in India. After coming to US and with affordability and chicken/animal protein being praised as the quality protein, we increased to more than 5 times a week much more quantities.

    After reading China study and following Dr. Gregor, we reduced to eat chicken once in two or three weeks and also just as a side. We committed to eating less than 10% or even 5% from animal protein. It is not a big deal as well stop eating meat since we enjoy so many lentils, legumes.

    1. It has been quite a while and no one has replied. So hopefully someone with qualification in this will add their more informed comment to mine.
      My unqualified response is that with this video and others Dr Greger has made the handling of the chicken may be more of a problem than the actual cooking of the chicken.
      The cooking prevents from actual transmission of bacteria from the meat, as cooking may kill that within it. Probably you are very thorough in this regard, and this is not a problem. But we may have others who are not so safe and thorough, and suffer their contaminations from other sources, hands, bathrooms, and shopping carts, which we may think clean, but are not. WE touch them and then us our eyes, or this or that, and we become infected.
      These things here is this video described seem very strong in their ability to remain alive and transmittable, unless we take extraordinary steps to mitigate it.
      Even a vegan is at risk by my read. Hand washing for a extended period removes them from our hands but few to include me wash their hands for long periods of time….we simply do not have the time.

      I personally think organic free range and all that, is probably a bit safer as those chickens are not kept in quite as intensive and close a group as in the normally factory farmed ones. But would not discount completely the possibility of infections. Salmonella is not focused on here but it is just naturally present in birds. Chickens are birds. So it will occur occasionally even in the best kept yards.
      Just my personal opinion and others may offer more educated responses.

    2. Hi I’m a health support volunteer.
      A lot of the issues with chicken is handling it. No matter how well you cook it and clean your kitchen, it often leaves dangerous bacteria in your kitchen.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-shop-for-handle-and-store-chicken/

      Organic chicken has been shown to be better, but definitely still risky.
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/superbugs-in-conventional-vs-organic-chicken/

      Ultimately we all need to look at the research and decide for ourselves what risks we want to take.
      NurseKelly

  8. No wonder, gentleman’s restrooms are cleaner. There are way more womankind shopping for chicken that will be cooked for supper than men enjoying the same kind of shopping…..so automatically there must be a higher traffic in Ladies room. Plus, most often man can ‘hold it’ till they are back home to use their own rest…..rooms.
    Then when a man is getting one package of chicken, he is taking the first one…. at the same time, his wife will be checking at least five packages before deciding which one to take home.

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