How COVID-19 Ends: Vaccination, Mutations, and Herd Immunity

How COVID-19 Ends: Vaccination, Mutations, and Herd Immunity
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What should we expect in the coming months and years with SARS-CoV-2?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Will COVID-19 just go away naturally as warmer weather approaches? We shouldn’t count on it. Though the common cold coronaviruses follow a seasonal pattern like the flu, peaking every winter, there are other respiratory viral infections that peak in the spring or summer. In fact, MERS-CoV, the last deadly coronavirus to cause an epidemic, peaked in August, in the sweltering heat and blistering sun of the Arabian Peninsula.

The mechanisms underlying the seasonality of viral respiratory infections remain a subject of scientific debate. It’s likely a combination of factors involving the virus itself (for example, viral viability at different temperatures and humidity), host immunity (such as vitamin D status and the drying of our airways), and host behavior (like the crowding of susceptible individuals indoors). However, the near-universal susceptibility to novel pandemic viruses may supersede these seasonal factors. All the recent flu pandemics emerged in the spring or summer months, though secondary waves did tend to hit during the following winter. Even if the contagiousness of the COVID-19 virus drops this summer in the Northern Hemisphere due to warmer, wetter weather, it is not expected to make a large dent in the pandemic curve.

What would stop the pandemic is herd immunity: having a critical portion of the populace immune to the virus. An infection can only burn through a population if there are enough susceptible individuals for the viral sparks to jump from one person to the next. Immune individuals who can’t get or transmit the virus act as firebreaks to slow the spread, or like control rods in a nuclear reactor to break the chains of transmission. Ideally, this is accomplished through mass vaccination. Vaccines are a way to fight fire with fire: using the virus to fight the virus by generating the benefits of infection (immunity) without the risks (disease and death). Unfortunately, even though we are now developing vaccines at pandemic speed, it’s humbling to realize that the average vaccine takes over 10 years to create and has a 94% chance of failure. Without a vaccine, herd immunity is only achieved the hard way: through mass infection.

The proportion of the population that needs to acquire immunity to stop a pandemic can be roughly estimated from the basic reproduction number I talked about before: the number of people a single infected individual tends to go on to infect. The basic equation is: Pcrit = 1 – 1/R0, where R0 is the basic reproduction number and Pcrit is what we’re looking for, the minimum proportion of a population needed to be vaccinated or have recovered with subsequent immunity to smother an outbreak within that population. So, if every COVID-19 case leads to two others becoming infected, then half of the population may need to be vaccinated or infected before the pandemic dies down. But, if each person on average infects four others, then one would need closer to three-quarters of the population to be immune to stop it. This is an overly simplistic model, but offers a ballpark approximation.

Based on R0 estimates for the COVID-19 virus from large outbreaks in affected countries, the minimum population immunity required ranges from about 30 percent (based on South Korea’s R0 estimate of 1.43) to more like 80 percent (based on an early R0 estimate from Spain that was closer to 5).

That’s why it’s so important to enact curve-flattening measures like social distancing to reduce the number of contacts and drive the basic reproduction number down as low as possible. You don’t want to have to wait until 80 percent of the population is infected.

Of course, this is all working under the assumption that people who recover from COVID-19 acquire immunity to reinfection. It works in rhesus monkeys. Scientists re-challenged two recovered monkeys with the COVID-19 virus, and were unable to successfully re-infect them. We don’t yet have a definitive answer as to whether humans become immune after infection, but the fact that at least a small case series reported potential treatment benefit from “convalescent plasma,” the transfusion of blood products from a recovered patient, suggests the buildup of at least temporary immunity.

We have three lines of defense against viral reinfection: circulating antibodies that can neutralize the virus, memory B cells that can create new antibodies upon re-exposure (memory B cells are the reason people can remain immune from the chickenpox virus for 50 or more years, for example), and thirdly, memory T cells that can help hunt down virus-infected cells. The benefit of convalescent plasma derives from the antibodies, but a six-year follow-up study of patients recovered from SARS found that about 90 percent no longer had any detectable anti-SARS antibodies in their bloodstreams. But that’s okay, because their memory B cells could just make more, right? Unfortunately, not a single SARS-specific memory B cell was found in any of the former SARS patients. So, it’s definitely not something like chicken pox. Now, about 60 percent were able to mount a memory T cell response––though it’s not clear if that alone would be able to protect them from reinfection.

Unlike HIV, which keeps parts of itself hidden to evade the immune system and establish a long, latent infection, the COVID-19 virus appears to take more of a smash-and-grab approach. It brazenly displays its array of spike proteins in a presumed attempt to better bind to its victim, but counts on jumping ship before immunity develops by quickly being coughed onto a new host. This bodes well for both the post-recovery acquisition of immunity and the prospects of vaccine development. A trait the COVID-19 virus does share with HIV, however, is its rapid mutation rate.

One reason RNA viruses, like HIV and coronaviruses and all flu viruses, represent a higher pandemic threat than those that use DNA as their genetic material is that viral RNA replication can be sloppy. Every copying cycle can result in multitudes of mutants, most of which probably aren’t even viable. But the flipside of this intrinsic inefficiency is that rare mutants may arise from this diverse population of variants that come exploding out of each infected cell that are either better adapted to the current host, or tailored towards new ones.

The high mutation rate of coronaviruses may help explain their proclivity to jump across species barriers in the first place. But the question we face now is: what this new virus will do next? The genetic sequences of viral copies recovered from COVID-19 patients around the world have already diverged as much as 15 percent as different strains spread around the globe. Here’s how rapidly the various COVID-19 strains have splayed out across the world in just a few, short, months.

In the SARS epidemic, certain early mutants went on to dominate, which led to the supposition that genetic adaptation to humans was helping to drive the outbreak. But that remains to be substantiated. Though continued mutation of the COVID-19 virus doesn’t yet offer insight into the direction of its evolution, we cannot rule out the possibility that the virus could transform to become even more transmissible or dangerous in the near future.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Motion graphics by AvoMedia

Image credit: Pxhere via pxhere.com. Image has been modified.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Will COVID-19 just go away naturally as warmer weather approaches? We shouldn’t count on it. Though the common cold coronaviruses follow a seasonal pattern like the flu, peaking every winter, there are other respiratory viral infections that peak in the spring or summer. In fact, MERS-CoV, the last deadly coronavirus to cause an epidemic, peaked in August, in the sweltering heat and blistering sun of the Arabian Peninsula.

The mechanisms underlying the seasonality of viral respiratory infections remain a subject of scientific debate. It’s likely a combination of factors involving the virus itself (for example, viral viability at different temperatures and humidity), host immunity (such as vitamin D status and the drying of our airways), and host behavior (like the crowding of susceptible individuals indoors). However, the near-universal susceptibility to novel pandemic viruses may supersede these seasonal factors. All the recent flu pandemics emerged in the spring or summer months, though secondary waves did tend to hit during the following winter. Even if the contagiousness of the COVID-19 virus drops this summer in the Northern Hemisphere due to warmer, wetter weather, it is not expected to make a large dent in the pandemic curve.

What would stop the pandemic is herd immunity: having a critical portion of the populace immune to the virus. An infection can only burn through a population if there are enough susceptible individuals for the viral sparks to jump from one person to the next. Immune individuals who can’t get or transmit the virus act as firebreaks to slow the spread, or like control rods in a nuclear reactor to break the chains of transmission. Ideally, this is accomplished through mass vaccination. Vaccines are a way to fight fire with fire: using the virus to fight the virus by generating the benefits of infection (immunity) without the risks (disease and death). Unfortunately, even though we are now developing vaccines at pandemic speed, it’s humbling to realize that the average vaccine takes over 10 years to create and has a 94% chance of failure. Without a vaccine, herd immunity is only achieved the hard way: through mass infection.

The proportion of the population that needs to acquire immunity to stop a pandemic can be roughly estimated from the basic reproduction number I talked about before: the number of people a single infected individual tends to go on to infect. The basic equation is: Pcrit = 1 – 1/R0, where R0 is the basic reproduction number and Pcrit is what we’re looking for, the minimum proportion of a population needed to be vaccinated or have recovered with subsequent immunity to smother an outbreak within that population. So, if every COVID-19 case leads to two others becoming infected, then half of the population may need to be vaccinated or infected before the pandemic dies down. But, if each person on average infects four others, then one would need closer to three-quarters of the population to be immune to stop it. This is an overly simplistic model, but offers a ballpark approximation.

Based on R0 estimates for the COVID-19 virus from large outbreaks in affected countries, the minimum population immunity required ranges from about 30 percent (based on South Korea’s R0 estimate of 1.43) to more like 80 percent (based on an early R0 estimate from Spain that was closer to 5).

That’s why it’s so important to enact curve-flattening measures like social distancing to reduce the number of contacts and drive the basic reproduction number down as low as possible. You don’t want to have to wait until 80 percent of the population is infected.

Of course, this is all working under the assumption that people who recover from COVID-19 acquire immunity to reinfection. It works in rhesus monkeys. Scientists re-challenged two recovered monkeys with the COVID-19 virus, and were unable to successfully re-infect them. We don’t yet have a definitive answer as to whether humans become immune after infection, but the fact that at least a small case series reported potential treatment benefit from “convalescent plasma,” the transfusion of blood products from a recovered patient, suggests the buildup of at least temporary immunity.

We have three lines of defense against viral reinfection: circulating antibodies that can neutralize the virus, memory B cells that can create new antibodies upon re-exposure (memory B cells are the reason people can remain immune from the chickenpox virus for 50 or more years, for example), and thirdly, memory T cells that can help hunt down virus-infected cells. The benefit of convalescent plasma derives from the antibodies, but a six-year follow-up study of patients recovered from SARS found that about 90 percent no longer had any detectable anti-SARS antibodies in their bloodstreams. But that’s okay, because their memory B cells could just make more, right? Unfortunately, not a single SARS-specific memory B cell was found in any of the former SARS patients. So, it’s definitely not something like chicken pox. Now, about 60 percent were able to mount a memory T cell response––though it’s not clear if that alone would be able to protect them from reinfection.

Unlike HIV, which keeps parts of itself hidden to evade the immune system and establish a long, latent infection, the COVID-19 virus appears to take more of a smash-and-grab approach. It brazenly displays its array of spike proteins in a presumed attempt to better bind to its victim, but counts on jumping ship before immunity develops by quickly being coughed onto a new host. This bodes well for both the post-recovery acquisition of immunity and the prospects of vaccine development. A trait the COVID-19 virus does share with HIV, however, is its rapid mutation rate.

One reason RNA viruses, like HIV and coronaviruses and all flu viruses, represent a higher pandemic threat than those that use DNA as their genetic material is that viral RNA replication can be sloppy. Every copying cycle can result in multitudes of mutants, most of which probably aren’t even viable. But the flipside of this intrinsic inefficiency is that rare mutants may arise from this diverse population of variants that come exploding out of each infected cell that are either better adapted to the current host, or tailored towards new ones.

The high mutation rate of coronaviruses may help explain their proclivity to jump across species barriers in the first place. But the question we face now is: what this new virus will do next? The genetic sequences of viral copies recovered from COVID-19 patients around the world have already diverged as much as 15 percent as different strains spread around the globe. Here’s how rapidly the various COVID-19 strains have splayed out across the world in just a few, short, months.

In the SARS epidemic, certain early mutants went on to dominate, which led to the supposition that genetic adaptation to humans was helping to drive the outbreak. But that remains to be substantiated. Though continued mutation of the COVID-19 virus doesn’t yet offer insight into the direction of its evolution, we cannot rule out the possibility that the virus could transform to become even more transmissible or dangerous in the near future.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Motion graphics by AvoMedia

Image credit: Pxhere via pxhere.com. Image has been modified.

216 responses to “How COVID-19 Ends: Vaccination, Mutations, and Herd Immunity

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  1. Regarding herd immunity, can Dr Greger or any other expert care to comment on this Covid-19 news. It’s a different outlook from the mainstream, but from a reputable scientist who uses Bayes Theorem in his mathematical modeling work.

    Bottom line: Up to 80% may not even be susceptible to Covid-19.

    Karl Friston uses advanced mathematical models that are much more sophisticated than the crude models used by WHO and most world governments.

    As the interviewer asked: “How do the models you use differ from the conventional ones epidemiologists rely on to advise governments in this pandemic?
    Answer: Conventional models essentially fit curves to historical data and then extrapolate those curves into the future. They look at the surface of the phenomenon – the observable part, or data. Our approach, which borrows from physics and in particular the work of Richard Feynman, goes under the bonnet. It attempts to capture the mathematical structure of the phenomenon – in this case, the pandemic – and to understand the causes of what is observed. Since we don’t know all the causes, we have to infer them. But that inference, and implicit uncertainty, is built into the models. That’s why we call them generative models, because they contain everything you need to know to generate the data. As more data comes in, you adjust your beliefs about the causes, until your model simulates the data as accurately and as simply as possible. Standard models start to fall apart when you think about the underlying causes of the data. You need models that can allow for all possible states, and assess which ones matter for shaping the pandemic’s trajectory over time.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/31/covid-19-expert-karl-friston-germany-may-have-more-immunological-dark-matter

    and, https://unherd.com/2020/06/karl-friston-up-to-80-not-even-susceptible-to-covid-19/

    1. It may a bit like buying internet plans. They may be marketed as offering ‘speeds up to X mbps’ but in practice we are probably going to get a lot less.

      It may even be like the lottery where you could ‘win to X million’ but the likelihood of you doing so is very, very small.

      In other words, the maximum possible upper limit is not the same thing as the most probable estimate. As I understand it, Friston wasn’t talking about the most probable rate, he was talking about the possible maximum rate.

    2. “Up to 80% may not even be susceptible to Covid-19.”

      We used to call that being “immune”. But that’s not profitable nowadays.

      1. We can also see the rate difference in black and Latino and Hispanic Amaerican versus normal.

        In 21 states blacks are dying at 50% higher rate than normal. They tend to be younger and it corresponds to COVID positive tests.

          1. The Black community would benefit from that process.

            There is an article about what makes a difference between whether Blacks get vaccinated or choose not to and having them understand even their flu deaths of people who got vaccinated and those who die unvaccinated would help them.

            It would also help them understand their relative risks flu versus Covid and it would show the deaths from Covid versus deaths from flu of the younger non-white communities.

            It has to hurt those communities that people are calling it a hoax.

            1. Maybe I can ask Vox for help.

              I am not sure that I have the logic properly yet but going into the nonwhite younger people, I think we could differentiate between normal deaths, flu deaths, vaccinated versus unvaccinated flu deaths and prove that there are actually extra deaths even if there are also lives saved from lockdown that offset Covid deaths and they probably can see if there were extra cancer deaths if you stay in those categories, too.

              Elderly white people are the, “They we’re going to die anyway category so getting rid of them simplifies things.

    3. Actually, if you read that second article closely they say: This wouldn’t mean that most of the population is technically immune to Covid-19 — scenarios with a very high viral load, such as doctors treating Covid-19 patients in hospitals may still overpower these defences — but it would mean under normal circumstances, most people would never have contracted the disease. It also does not explain the phenonemon of “long-haulers”, the seemingly healhty young people who contract Covid and and keep gettign relapsing symptoms, cannot seem to get over Covid-19.

      So, the researcher/mathematical model is saying 80% of people are not susceptible to contracting Covid due to “immunological dark matter”….some unknown combination that is accounting for the fact they don’t show illness. It mentions this is likely is some complicated combo of many factors: living in isolation, genetics, Vit D, microbiome, etc. etc. It will take time to figure out that secret sauce’s ingredients: and it will likely vary by population/location/ethnicity.

      I think the comment implied 80% of people are immune, which is likely not true, and even folks who might not otherwise be susceptible, may still contract Covid-19 if the circumstances are right: a stressed 40 year old caring for their elderly parents with Covid: missing out on sleep, multitasking, worried, high viral exposure due to caretaking actively sick person shedding virus.

      1. Mims, Thanks for weighing in on this. I came to about the same interpretation as you described. The model shows that there are underlying variables at work even though the form of those variables made not be currently known.

        The beauty of the Karl Friston model is that it can take into account new data more accurately than the crude models can, so gives a more accurate prediction of how the virus infection scenario plays out.

      2. What’s your definition of being immune then?

        “may still contract Covid19 if the circumstances are right:” They may also catch the flu if the circumstances are then get relabeled “Covid19”. It’s more profitable.

        1. Michael,

          We are well outside of flu season and where COVID tests highest through the country, hospitalizations rise and ICU cases rise and deaths rise.

          That argument would have been easier to make in March but in the Northeast USA when the cases went up, the hospitalizations went up followed by the deaths spiking a few weeks later.

          And when the cases dropped dramatically in the Northeast, the hospitalizations and deaths dropped.

          If you look at Italy, the same thing happened.

    4. Not a death rate of 3.4 % of population so not a pandemic, the scare tactics worked.
      Only old people with weak immuun system die, has no affect on children so open the schools again .
      No scientific proof that mask protect and else if they work you can open everything .
      No scientific proof exists of 6 feet ant social distancing .
      It is a plandemic to destroy world wide economy ..
      Scientific proof is not there and swine flew killed more people and now they keep it alive by testing and they do not look at people who die from it , it is over the flew season.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78X1Y_5mkKQ&t=29s

      1. Igor-
        Did you think that the covid 19 is over? It grows by a lot every day. Who is invested in destroying the world economy, and would have the technological ability to carry out this dystopian scenario?

        Throwing around accusations proves nothing.

        We tend to work on evidence on this site.

        Now children are getting sick in much higher numbers.

        Put some facts into your accusations next time and more people will take it seriously.

        https://www.newsweek.com/oregon-coronavirus-among-under-10-kids-grows-fivefold-nearly-many-cases-people-over-80-1514811?fbclid=IwAR0msbTicm-j2pkBuTyKjSy_PhhTZ3Udy9qz8Iv-krehosIpCKdWIvbh7-s

        1. Thank you, John. The YouTube channel is either the best of the worst, or the worst of the best, but it should give us pause that so many people live by such closed models of reality.

          Openness to new data seems to place the Friston model ahead of the conventional, extrapolated curve, in every case.

          1. Perhaps.

            Conventional models aren’t always simple extrapolations as Friston implies. They usually take into account multiple factors using sophisticated formulae. They are also continually updated as new data come in.

            It’s not surprising that Friston would talk up his approach and talk down other approaches. However, he is neither a biostatistician nor an epidemiologist Until he can produce something that is actually shown to work better than other people’s approaches, a degree of caution regarding his claims might be warranted.

        2. What evidence so far? Endulge us! What claims about this virus or the test have been scientifically proven so far?

          Is this really a new virus or just a newly found virus? Does this test show positive results only if this virus is found? Does this test only show positive result if you have the virus right now and no rests of this virus that were destroyed a month ago by your healthy immune system? What does this virus do to people if it doesn’t do it to more than 80% of those who were tested positive?

          So many claims go around these days which are based on unproven premises.

          You seem to have fallen for the fallacy that people (in this case children) who were tested positive got “sick”. But infection and infection disease are not the same and more than 80% of the people who were tested positive are not “sick”. It’s propably close to 100% if we are talking about children. Even the flu can be more dangerous to children.

        1. Plus, all of the parents that I know personally are keeping their children home EVEN THOUGH the schools are indeed opening in the Fall.

          The reasons they have given to me are:

          That they have people in the house with high comorbidities. (A Florida youth was on the news for putting his father in the ICU by going to a party one night after his parents told him not to go.)

          Others aren’t letting their kids go because the schools are requiring the kids to wear masks all day long.

          Some said that the kids won’t have things like art, music, gym, recess, lunch in a cafeteria, after school activities, sports, and no normal socialization. They were told that the children would be desked 10 in a room with the kids back to back. They felt like their children would hate it so much that it might foster wrong socialization patterns and might cause trauma, where having them at home hasn’t caused distress so far.

          Also, smaller schools are talking about having kids go alternating weeks and the parents said that if they had to figure out what to do with the kids alternating weeks, or how to juggle their work schedule alternating weeks and they said that it is just as easy to home school and work at home themselves. They already managed that for a semester and the kids adapted to that fairly easily.

          1. I am insisting that my college son stay home and take online classes. I told him that if he wants to go live in a dorm, he’s on his own and can’t come back home till this is over. He will stay home.

            1. Lisa,

              That is wisdom.

              I think about the father who is in the ICU in Florida because his son wanted to go to a party. He might die because he let his son back in the house after.

      2. I think we need to ask why medical professionals and scientists are having their online videos removed and their licenses and jobs threatened when their opinion is different from the official story. Nurses and doctors have tried to tell us the numbers are not accurate and the tests are not accurate. The hospitals are not overwhelmed right now. This is not science or medicine. The shutdown is political.

        If the government wanted to protect our health, they would never have subsidized corn to produce cheap high fructose corn syrup that ends up in everything. They would subsidize organic fruit and vegetables to make those cheaper. We are exposed to over 80 chemicals that other countries have banned. We can’t even get roundup out of our food, even after the lawsuit that showed it is carcinogenic. That one change to make Organic food more available and high fructose corn syrup less available could help diabetes and cancer. Look at the number of people who die from cancer or diabetes and compare that to Covid19. Not to mention the alarming loss of pollinators. People have tried to get this changed for years. They don’t care about our lives. Whatever this is, it is not our government suddenly caring about our lives more than profit.

        1. Sherry,

          I don’t know where you live, but the shutdown mostly ended 2 months ago, except for certain things, like bars where cases spread too fast.

          You are focused on shutdowns and don’t think there are hospitalizations, but I am reading “record number of hospitalizations” in so many states and most of them have stayed open, but are filling up their ICU’s.

          If you live in the USA, your state may be next, unless you live someplace like Maine which has been effective at keeping people from the highest risk states out.

          1. People in the states where it has spread know that it isn’t fake.

            30% of the patients in the nursing home where my cousin was passed away from COVID.

            But those of us who live in hard-hit regions know full well how many young people have also died.

            The doctors in the Northeast were crying on the radio and on the internet. They were not bored.

            One described it as “Hell. Literally.”

            I do understand that there are states that haven’t experienced it yet and there are states that are experiencing that type of situation right now. They said that Texas has twice the spike in hospitalizations as it had during the spring.

      1. Those people are obviously nuts. Just look at the title of the first video. It’s crackpot stuff.

        Wild, unsubstantiated accusations don’t constitute evidence.

        As for keeping an open mind, as rationalwiki notes

        “”A sovereign citizen, a creationist, an anti-vaxxer, and a conspiracy theorist walk into a bar. He orders a drink.

        Crank magnetism is the condition where people become attracted to multiple crank ideas at the same time. Crank magnetism also denotes the tendency — even for otherwise “lone issue” cranks — to accumulate more crank beliefs over time. You know that old saying about not being so open-minded that your brain falls out? People with crank magnetism didn’t pay attention to that.”
        https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crank_magnetism

        1. Mr. Fumblefingers, it is ignorant to call someone names, especially anti-vaxxer. You have not done your research or you wouldn’t say that to anyone. I did do the research, and it is not a joking matter. I dare you to look at it with an open mind. You will find that many people you call names are not anti-vaccine. They want real studies. Some vaccines don’t even use a real placebo in a study. Does it offend you that people might want a real safety study? They want the vaccine maker to have accountability if they INTENTIONALLY harm or kill with a vaccine. Yes, that has happened several times and you cannot hold them accountable in court. One person involved in making the Covid19 vaccine lied to Africans and used vaccines to abort babies and cause infertility without their knowledge. A researcher bragged about it as if they did a good thing. How comfortable does that make you with talk about forced Covid19 vaccines? They want the CDC and others who make decisions to not profit off the vaccine. They want to wait until babies are 2 to get them like other countries because our infant mortality is much higher. They want doctors to get paid if they decide not to recommend a vaccine, because a doctor should not have to choose between their practice and their patient’s health. This is common sense stuff and would make vaccines trustworthy like it should be. One guy just wants the mumps and measles to not be in the same shot because studies have found a link between getting measles and mumps close together and autism. Is spacing out measles and mumps vaccines so unreasonable to you that you need to call people names? There is a video of a woman who is telling her story about how her baby died and vaccines are listed as the cause on the death certificate and ignorant protesters are shouting anti-vaxxer in the background. That is disgusting and incredibly ignorant to me.

          1. Your post is an example of the problems you have.

            Look at the title of that first video ‘dr-andrew-kaufman-they-want-to-genetically-modify-us-with-the-covid-19-vaccine’. If you are unable to understand why such a claim is obviously nuts

            For a second problem, consider another comment ‘ How comfortable does that make you with talk about forced Covid19 vaccines?’ Nobody is talking about forced covid 19 vaccines except anti vaxxers and conspiracy nuts.

            Examine too, the rest of your post …. a mish mash of unsubstantiated allegations you have got from YouTube and the internet generally. Unsubstantiated allegations by publicity hounds and conspiracy nuts shouldn’t be treated as facts.

            Those people never accept that tens of thousands of lives have been saved by eg smallpox, measles, polio, TB vaccines. They deny reality. That’s a fair definition of nuts in my book.

            But yes I shouldn’t have called them ‘nuts’. I should have called them ‘dangerous nuts’. If they have their way, how many unnecessary deaths will result?

      2. CHELSEA MADISON,

        The title of your videos suggest not so much an open mind as a sieve, through which all evidence and rational thinking drip, drip, drip away.

        The Plandemic movie; really? It’s been thoroughly debunked. John Oliver did a very entertaining presentation about conspiracy theories, and how to avoid getting caught up in them; parts of the Plandemic movie are used as examples. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_eHBZLM6U&feature=emb_title

    5. This is a bit like the hidden variables theory in quantum mechanics as proposed by Louis De Broglie and David Bohm. You do not know what it is, but you see that it shapes what actually is observed. And the observer is actually included in it. The knowlege of the population about the virus is actually shaping the trajectory of the virus, as the knowledge actually modifies the behavior of the population in ways that either benefits to the spread of the epidemy or to its extinction.

  2. 2 interesting studies suggest that not just diabetes but high blood sugar levels cause increased risk of complications in COVID-19.

    – Increased death rate for COVID-19 patients admitted to hospitals with high blood sugar levels (J Diabetes Sci Technol, May 9, 2020).
    – Non-diabetic COVID-19 patients with high blood sugar levels were more than twice as likely to die within a month, and four times more likely to suffer serious complications (Diabetologia, July 10, 2020) … a fasting blood glucose level higher than 125 mg/dL is an independent predictor for death within 28 days.

    https://nutritionchat.net/community/coronavirus/high-blood-sugar-increases-risk-of-complications-in-covid-19/

    (Forum signups now working – apologies for the technical glitch).

    1. I had seen that comment some time ago from a nutritionist: that it is very important for diabetics to be taking their medication and monitoring blood sugar, and if they do so they will be at lower risk of a bad outcome from COVID. It may be the same for those with CVD: be sure you are taking your statin and controlling your lipids.

  3. I love Dr. Greger. I would just like to point out that the PCR test used to ‘identify’ the CoVid virus is not a valid test to do so (and this is according to the scientist who developed the PCR test). Also, being that Dr. Greger usually bases his information on science, it is worth noting that the ‘Corona Virus’ has never been actually identified as the cause of this illness and has not passed Koch’s Postulate, the gold standard in science to identify the cause of a disease. Dr. Andrew Kaufman has an excellent video explaining this…highly recommend watching it. Still love you all at NutritionFacts.org…but please do look a bit deeper into ‘the agenda’ that the vaccine cartel’s agenda (check out ‘Event 201’).

    1. Sorry but this is not correct. I don’t know where you got this stuff from but it is fake news. It may have been considered reasonable in 1884 but science has moved on since then.

      Koch’s Postulate in not the ‘gold standard’. Even Koch himself recognised that.

      ‘These postulates were generated prior to understanding of modern concepts in microbial pathogenesis that cannot be examined using Koch’s postulates, including viruses (which are obligate cellular parasites) and asymptomatic carriers. They have largely been supplanted by other criteria such as the Bradford Hill criteria for infectious disease causality in modern public health.’
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch%27s_postulates

    1. Event 201 was a tabletop exercise that simulated a global pandemic hosted in October by the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security with the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and World Economic Forum. That was the third pandemic simulation that the John Hopkins Center has hosted, starting in 2001 in an effort to see how medical professionals, policy experts, and business analysts would respond to the onset of a fictional coronavirus outbreak.

      I do understand why people believe that there is a Big Pharma vaccine and drug cartel and I will agree that there has been politics involved in that end of this pandemic, however, there are so many groups competing to get vaccines out and the fact that they ran out of money and time SARS1 and may not even succeed this pandemic, it just seems to me that it is more likely to be the Gilead drug that has been hyped up. And things like Ivermectin have taken a long time. But it is just as likely that we won’t even successfully get a vaccine.

      The simulated pandemics don’t seem suspicious to me.

      1. More interesting to me would be to hear whether the simulated coronavirus pandemic was actually effective at all in preparing anybody for the real coronavirus pandemic.

        I look at how the WHO and CDC started and I am not sure it prepared them well enough.

        1. I always wonder that about simulations. Are they effective at all?

          Did it change how the different agencies actually handled this current pandemic?

          Studying old pandemics would seem to be useful.

          But I am wondering if simulations led to action plans and strategies for communications? Did it cause everybody to update their email addresses and website information? Did it lead to stronger relationships between groups like the WHO and CDC and were those relationships helpful at streamlining the communications between them?

          Were businesses more prepared for shut down?

        2. Some people here think that the WHO and CDC overreacted and moved too quickly. They argue that covid-19 doesn’t qualify as a pandemic since the death rate is so much lower than the eg Spanish Flu.

          Since there is no official universally accepted definition of a pandemic, I am wary of all these facile criticisms of the WHO etc made with the benefit of perfect hindsight. I am pretty sure that none of the people making these criticisms called it any better than the WHO or CDC at the time. It appears to me to be yet another example of the twisted human tendency to seek out and sacrifice a scapegoat after the event. If they wanted to be fair about scapegoating, they should go after the astrologers, fortune tellers, tea leaf readers, crystal ball gazers and the like who make a nice living by claiming to have foreknowledge of such things. But since they are part of the ‘alternative’ movement, I suppose no one is going to criticise them.

          1. Tom,

            I understand that, but I consider those two organizations to be the leaders and they were tweeting, “Don’t buy masks” and were very slow at getting countries to mobilize as if it might be a pandemic.

            In fact, they were talking as if it wouldn’t be one.

            They need different script-writers.

            And I mean that sincerely.

            They were authoritative in “Don’t buy masks” and then they switched and they are the ones who were on television and were not explaining their logic clearly. Dr. Greger already explained their logic better than they did. The CDC acts like Trump silenced them, but they were on the media every day and they were not articulating themselves properly.

            1. It was the preppers and disaster planners who were right about what would happen.

              Dr. Greger also was right and he was doing the same mental processing as the preppers.

              Dr. McDougall did, too.

              I would want the preppers added to the next simulation and for them to just use what they really have prepped as their answers to teach the other people a lesson on preparedness.

            2. Deb

              They updated the advice as new data came in. Nothing unusual wrong with that. The two previous corona virus outbreaks didn’t turn into pandemics, why should they have expected that one to do so.

              None of us possesses a crystal ball that allows us to foretell the future, not even the WHO and CDC. Blaming them for not knowing how things would develop seems unreasonable to me. I must think that most of the criticisms are cheap shots by people who didn’t do any better at the time, and are based on perfect 2020 hindsight.

          2. Tom,

            I am from the side that, in the beginning, they were more concerned with whether people would panic, and didn’t take a firm enough stance on the side of vigilance so that we could have had containment, rather than community spread.

            If we had contained, we wouldn’t even have needed the type of lockdown we needed.

            Calming down the governments who are pretty passive already was justification for not doing all that much.

            If you listened to the mayor of NYC, I never once heard even one hint of “panic” and I feel like that was wrong focus on behalf of those agencies.

            Also, rather than communicating that masks could be use a precaution, they were afraid that somehow people would buy N95 masks and, honestly, in the next pandemic simulation, they need to communicate to the governments about masks the minute people like China have an outbreak. Yes, they would like storehouses full of masks, but what I do know is that, the USA, right now, is spending so much money that future pandemic will likely not have a budget again.

            Obama didn’t restock the mask stockpile either and I really think that hospitals are the ones who need to take responsibility for medical masks, not governments.

            Hopefully, they will do it this time. The fact that the hospitals push it to the cities and the cities push it off on the federal government tells me that masks need a different sponsor. Doctors and nurses should have an emergency pack of their own.

            The preppers are right. People should be ready and they are the ones who honestly say that the governments plural aren’t going to be ready to take care of everybody in these things. We need to take personal responsibility to have things like masks.

          3. Tom,

            And, by that, I don’t mean that every poor person should be burdened. If there are poor doctors who can’t afford $100 in masks, there still should be masks at the hospital level, city level, and federal level.

            But if, as part of their next simulation, they asked if the doctors and hospitals have their own masks, that would already prevent what happened in NYC.

      2. Deb no of course it don’t seem suspicious to you .
        coincidence suddenly it happens , truth hidden in plane sight is what it is called .
        You think it is normal that Bill says to lower the population by 15 % in Afrika by vaccinations .
        Remember he was on the plane with Epstein but you probably doo, t seem suspicious to you either .

        Urgent information on Covid Vacc!ne
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_iq7oiHT30

        Order out of chaos and if I told you a year ago this would happen you told me a am a conspiracy theorist , last but not least I am an analist and we live in a EVIL world , wake up

        1. Igor,

          Dr. Greger predicted a coronavirus would come eventually 10 years ago.

          When I was a police explorer, we used to go to simulated accidents and simulated gunfights and simulated speed traps. It is how people get prepared for events so that they will think through how to prepare for them ahead of time.

          My question of whether it actually did prepare them for this is more interesting than whatever you are thinking.

        1. That video is going to start off with autism and that has been studied and the children with autism were less likely to have been vaccinated.

          There are alternate theories of autism, MIT had a theory about RoundUp contributing to it.

          Dr Greger’s video showed a correlation to air pollution, I believe which happens to be the blog topic.

          1. Autoimmune in mothers is linked with autism.

            http://www.smartvax.com/images/PDF/association%20of%20family%20history%20of%20autoimmune%20diseases%20and%20autism%20spectrum%20disorders.pdf

            So is Tylenol, Amoxicillin, and RoundUp use

            The study where they tried to determine whether vaccines were causal of autism, the group that was not vaccinated ended up being the group with more autism cases.

            Parents are confused about what causes autism, but Autoimmune, Tylenol, Amoxicillin, RoundUp, and Air Pollution are already stronger answers.

      1. Hey there,
        how about the truth that vaccines are a hyped lie?
        The flu vaccine is a garbage vaccine – it is literally useless with H3N2 which has the highest mortality and no one should have to take that risk no matter how small.
        I know a nurse who was awarded a lawsuit ( too late) due to a flu vaccine reaction that cause her to develop a massive immune response, mouth sores and inflammation so severe she had to be intubated – the inflammation caused pancreatitis due to massive prednisione use which thinned her aorta making an existing thoracic anuersym dissected and killed her. and all this was for a flu vaccine that had a MINUS 16% efficacy and one that she was forced by her employer to get. So do not speak to me about flu vaccine safety

        1. Hey, Penelope, Check out the difference between death from the flu vaccine and death from the flu. (Hint: it’s wildly different.)

        2. Penelope,

          I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

          A few people do have serious reactions, but it is closer to 10 in a million.

          As far as the Guillain-Barré the CDC says that no more than 1 or 2 cases per million people vaccinated get it.

          A few people have allergic reactions but they have been working on that and are succeeding at getting versions that are less likely to cause allergic reactions.

          1. Igor,

            Here is the CDC response to that concept.

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/whatifstop.htm

            https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/e/impact.pdf

            And here is the impact of the anti-vaccine movement on pertussis

            https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140673697043341.pdf

            Annual deaths before versus cases reported after vaccination 2017

            Smallpox before vaccinations 29,005 deaths/year after vaccinations zero cases 2017
            Diptheria before vaccinations 21,053 deaths/year after vaccinations zero cases 2017
            Pertussis before vaccinations 200,752 deaths/year after vaccinations 18,975 cases 2017
            Tetanus before vaccinations 580 deaths/year after vaccinations 33 cases 2017
            Polio before vaccinations 16,316 deaths/year after vaccinations 0 cases 2017
            Measles before vaccinations 538,217 deaths/year after vaccinations 120 cases 2017
            Mumps before vaccinations 162,344 deaths/year after vaccinations 6,109 cases 2017
            Rubella before vaccinations 47,745 deaths/year after vaccinations 7 cases 2017
            CRS before vaccinations 152 deaths/year after vaccinations 5 cases 2017
            Haemophilus Influenza before vaccinations 20,000 deaths/year after vaccinations 33 cases 2017

            Deaths per year before vaccination and deaths per year after vaccination 2016

            Hepatitis A before vaccinations 117,333 deaths/year after vaccinations 4,000 deaths 2016
            Hepatitis B before vaccinations 66,232 deaths/year after vaccinations 20,900 deaths 2016
            Pneumococcus before vaccinations 63,067 deaths/year after vaccinations 30,400 deaths 2016
            under 5 years old before vaccinations 16,069 deaths/year after vaccinations 1,700 deaths 2016
            Rotavirus before vaccinations 62,500 deaths/year after vaccinations 30,625 deaths 2016
            Varicella before vaccinations 4,085,120 deaths/year after vaccinations 102,128 deaths 2016

            I will try to find the data for how many people are injured through vaccination but these are the benefits of it.

            1. What about CDC’c covering up the data about autism via whistle-blower from their own ranks which was the theme for the Vaxxed documentary? Before Reagan’s 1986 act, autism occurrence was 1 in 5000 and today is 1 in 35.

              Make the connection…

              CDC had never done a vaxxed vs unvaxxed children and said that they would never do it, I wonder why is that?

              I am not leaning on a compromised agency that has financial interest in pharmaceuticals which it has to regulate.

              Regarding Smallpox etc, are you serious? It was almost erradicated before jabs came into vogue via sanitation and nutrition, read some history.

              Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and The Forgotten History
              by Suzanne Humphries MD

                  1. Plantbrother,

                    We can throw anecdotes around until the day after tomorrow.

                    Vaccines only have this much of a bad wrap because we don’t have hundreds of thousands of people dying from measles, mumps, polio, etc.

                    The death rate drop from those diseases is so much higher than damage from vaccines and we know the damage because there is a process in place.

                  2. Yeah, ignore the scientific evidence. Let’s confine the discussion to false claims, dubious anecdotes and speculations instead.

              1. I’m sorry but you are muddling correlation with causation in your stats about the incidence of autism.

                You only have to look at my family history to see another potential reason for the drastic rise in autism incidence.

                5 generations back 3 people institutionalised with conditions ( not called autism but symptoms match) ALL died of childhood diseases
                4 generations back 1 person institutionalised with conditions,( not called autism but symptoms match) died of childhood diseases. 1 person with milder symptoms (my granddad-not institutionalised)
                2 generation back 1 person (me- Sensory Processing disorder ) nearly died from chicken pox, doctors said the only thing that gave me a fighting chance was my parents realised how serious it was and got me to hospital.
                My son ( Sensory Processing Disorder)

                I think its pretty obvious that my family line has a hereditary link to autism like conditions, the difference is vaccinations/improved health care, the fact that we are not placed in institutions rife with disease, means we have survived to adult hood, but because of that survival we then go on to pass on those genes.

                I’d suggest that vaccinations do cause autism but not for the reason you think. They help stop ” survival of the fittest” from filtering out those with weaker genetics, and that is why you are seeing more people with autism

              2. Funny how some people refuse to believe anything said by scientific and medical bodies, and governments, but are quite happy to believe any old tosh claimed by alternative gurus even when simple fact checking would reveal that at least a proportion of such claims are factually incorrect.

                  1. Yeah government profits from the sick and vulnerable.

                    Government expenditure would nosedive if it didn’t have to pay out huge sums in health and social security expenditure.

                    Some people it appears will invent any old reason, no matter how ridiculous, to justify their refusal to face facts.

                    I mean it’s not like there is any country in the world, from North Korea to Venezuela, from Iran to China, that is crazy enough to believe all this anti-vaxxer nonsense. It’s not like they are in thrall to Western Big Pharma/big vaccine manufacturers. They have their own scientists. All of them accept that vaccines save lives because they have examined the evidence. None of them believe the claims of crackpots with websites and YouTube videos. Why should we?

  4. Are most vaccines realty that impotent? Taking 10 years to develop then being as much as 94% ineffective. Doesn’t this make a case for not bothering to get yearly flu vaccines?

        1. Igor,

          Here are the statistics for death before vaccinations and cases after vaccinations of common illnesses. Do you have a list of how many people get injured?

          I will look for it, but if you are going to give knowledge, you have to give it from both directions.

          Annual deaths before versus cases reported after vaccination 2017

          Smallpox before vaccinations 29,005 deaths/year after vaccinations zero cases 2017
          Diptheria before vaccinations 21,053 deaths/year after vaccinations zero cases 2017
          Pertussis before vaccinations 200,752 deaths/year after vaccinations 18,975 cases 2017
          Tetanus before vaccinations 580 deaths/year after vaccinations 33 cases 2017
          Polio before vaccinations 16,316 deaths/year after vaccinations 0 cases 2017
          Measles before vaccinations 538,217 deaths/year after vaccinations 120 cases 2017
          Mumps before vaccinations 162,344 deaths/year after vaccinations 6,109 cases 2017
          Rubella before vaccinations 47,745 deaths/year after vaccinations 7 cases 2017
          CRS before vaccinations 152 deaths/year after vaccinations 5 cases 2017
          Haemophilus Influenza before vaccinations 20,000 deaths/year after vaccinations 33 cases 2017

          Deaths per year before vaccination and deaths per year after vaccination 2016

          Hepatitis A before vaccinations 117,333 deaths/year after vaccinations 4,000 deaths 2016
          Hepatitis B before vaccinations 66,232 deaths/year after vaccinations 20,900 deaths 2016
          Pneumococcus before vaccinations 63,067 deaths/year after vaccinations 30,400 deaths 2016
          under 5 years old before vaccinations 16,069 deaths/year after vaccinations 1,700 deaths 2016
          Rotavirus before vaccinations 62,500 deaths/year after vaccinations 30,625 deaths 2016
          Varicella before vaccinations 4,085,120 deaths/year after vaccinations 102,128 deaths 2016

          1. And, looking at the list of vaccinations, I got to tetanus and it looks like there were so few deaths before vaccinations that mentally, I might think it would be okay to skip that one, but my cousin, who was one of the healthiest human beings that I had ever met in every way, died after a small cut in his construction job. What I remember is that when other people were eating cake at birthday parties, his family was eating fruit. He was a highly athletic man, perfect weight, his personality is one that I would call “calm responsibility” excellence at everything. But he didn’t get his tetanus shot renewed. They had to cut off limbs and all sorts of things to save his life but it didn’t help.

      1. Liisa,
        I have heard from many who have had a terrible reaction to the flu vaccine, and unable to work. I don’t know anyone who has died from the flu. I don’t believe that mercury, formaldehyde nor aluminum are nutrients. Do you?

        Why would the government give out billions in damages for vaccines if it didn’t have to? Big Pharma gets the profits, we pay for the damages, either in taxes or in terrible health effects. Sound like a reason to make vaccines mandatory? For the corporate profit or for people’s health?

        1. John S,

          You don’t know anyone who has died from the flu — and yet, tens of thousands die from it each year in just this country alone.

          But it’s a big country, about 328.3 million people. What are the odds that you would, in fact, know somebody who died from the flu? About 1 in 5380 or less a year, or 0.019% (assuming a US population of 328.2 million, and 61,000 deaths from flu, which is about the highest; it can be considerably lower). So, not very likely, wouldn’t you say? And then there’s the higher number of hospitalizations, and the even higher number of people who come down with the flu. Relatively expensive (health care costs and lost work), debilitating, and painful.

          I was in an intensive care waiting room in January, along with another family, whose relative was a nurse at the same hospital, 60 yo in good health (she ran marathons) — and she had been on life support for 9 days, due to an initial infection with the flu. I don’t know if she survived. So sad.

          No medical treatment is risk-free. Everybody needs to balance the benefits vs the risks of any medical treatment; vaccinations are no exception. And from what I know, vaccinations are a no brainer: the benefits greatly outweigh the risks. Except, perhaps, for “free riders:” those who ride on the coattails of others, who take advantage of the behavior of others, they take no risks themselves but rely on many others who do. As, for example, those who don’t vaccinate their children, relying on the vast majority who do to keep their unvaccinated children healthy and disease-free. They are a scourge on society.
          (Except for those who children are medically unable to be vaccinated; they are one reason the rest of us get flu shots. Or, maybe you don’t care about these children?)

          And for the record: I don’t know anybody who has suffered an adverse effect from a flu shot.

          1. LOL! no reactions from a flu shot huh? 4 billion has been paid for vaccine injury and death. The flu vaccine is most heavily awarded vaccine under the VAERS system including guillan barre, syncope, radial nerve injury

              1. YR,

                That is a good article.

                The concept that they payout for vaccine injury cases, not based on evidence that the vaccine actually caused the injury, but in the absence of other causes. Meaning if they don’t know what caused the condition, they just give in and pay out.

                I liked the last sentence:

                While we watch as measles returns, it may have less to do with ignorance than the basic fact that this communal social fabric has been displaced by distrust, isolation, and fear.

                2019 had the greatest number of Measles cases since 1992.

        2. John, My answer is personal and anecdotal. I do not know ANYone who has had a bad reaction to a flu vaccination. I have received them yearly for approximately twenty years now. However, my cousin DIED from the flu in her 40’s. She was healthy and slim. My friend in high school lost her father, a non-smoker and not overweight, in his 50’s. I knew BOTH of these people, but I don’t know ANYone who died from a flu vaccination–or even became sick from one.

        3. John,

          Here are the flu deaths since 2010.

          https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

          The thing is, children may be getting injured, but there is an official compensation program where parents get paid if that happens and there are very few parents who actually fill out the paperwork.

          https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/18/health/vaccine-injury-claims.html

          Influenza vaccinations 1,672,400,000

          Total people compensated for injury due to influenza vaccine during a 12-year period is 3,589.

          So, about 299 injuries per year from the flu vaccine.

          Versus the data for the positives for flu.

          https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm

          I don’t know whether to list the children effects or the adult effects at this juncture.

          Well, I will just post the results from the study in 2017-2018

          During the study period, 358 laboratory-confirmed, flu-associated child deaths were reported to CDC. Of the reported pediatric deaths with known vaccination status (291), only one in four children (26 percent) had been vaccinated.

          1. The data for actual deaths or permanent disability is low according to studies.

            One of the worst was a case of lif=ve polio vaccine back when the vaccines were first coming out resulting in 51 cases of permanent paralysis and five deaths among vaccinated individuals, and 113 cases of paralysis and five deaths among contacts of vaccinated individuals. That was back in 1955 before there was regulation of the industry and it was an accident.

            In 1976, 45 million people were vaccinated with the swine flu vaccine and that vaccine caused 53 deaths and 1 out of every 100,000 cases got Guillaume Barre, which is a kissing cousin to mono in my mind.

            In the 1990’s, there was 1 death from an oral polio vaccine that is no longer used in the USA.

            In the 1990’s there were 1,266 cases of SIDS that they did investigate as possible death after vaccination, but the deaths from SIDS decreased after they started dealing with how children were positioned during their sleep. study also found that death reports to VAERS from causes other than SIDS also declined from 1993 to 1996 as the population and the number of vaccines administered increased (rather than having the deaths increase as vaccines increased)

            A 2013 study showed that the death rate 1 or 2 months following vaccination was lower than that in the general US population death rate, and the causes of death were similar providing evidence that vaccinations are not associated with an increased risk of death at the population level and might decrease death rate.

            A 10-year review of claims to the US National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program noted five cases of death from anaphylaxis after allergic reaction to vaccinations.

            There are 8 cases of immunocompromised children dying after receiving live vaccines. The children had things like cancer or HIV.

            1 child died after fainting and hitting his head after a vaccination.

            Yellow fever vaccination has less than 1 out of 100,000 people get a swollen brain condition. They said that 63% of the 60 cases resulted in death and they said that they don’t recommend that vaccine for people over the age of 60.

            With the smallpox vaccination, there is approximately one death per million persons receiving an initial dose and one death per four million among persons receiving secondary doses.

            With polio, about 1 child gets paralyzed by the polio vaccine per year and 2 children died over 10 years.

    1. Gregory, the 94% ineffective is about developing vaccines.

      According to the CDC, a 2014 study showed that flu vaccine reduced children’s risk of flu-related pediatric ICU admission by 74% during flu seasons from 2010-2012. For adults, a 2018 study showed that between 2012 to 2015, flu vaccination among adults reduced the risk of being admitted to an ICU with flu by 82 percent.

  5. There is a study on antibody persistance after a Covid-19 infection. It appears, at least in this study, that the levels significantly decline over time.
    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.09.20148429v1

    Antibody (Ab) responses to SARS-CoV-2 can be detected in most infected individuals 10-15 days following the onset of COVID-19 symptoms. However, due to the recent emergence of this virus in the human population it is not yet known how long these Ab responses will be maintained or whether they will provide protection from re-infection. Using sequential serum samples collected up to 94 days post onset of symptoms (POS) from 65 RT-qPCR confirmed SARS-CoV-2-infected individuals, we show seroconversion in >95% of cases and neutralizing antibody (nAb) responses when sampled beyond 8 days POS. We demonstrate that the magnitude of the nAb response is dependent upon the disease severity, but this does not affect the kinetics of the nAb response. Declining nAb titres were observed during the follow up period. Whilst some individuals with high peak ID50 (>10,000) maintained titres >1,000 at >60 days POS, some with lower peak ID50 had titres approaching baseline within the follow up period. A similar decline in nAb titres was also observed in a cohort of seropositive healthcare workers from Guy′s and St Thomas′ Hospitals.

    A study out of Sweden showed significant T cell memory to SARS-CoV2…so that is something.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.29.174888v1.abstract
    Our collective dataset shows that SARS-CoV-2 elicits robust memory T cell responses akin to those observed in the context of successful vaccines, suggesting that natural exposure or infection may prevent recurrent episodes of severe COVID-19 also in seronegative individuals.

    Both preprints, so not peer reviewed, but interesting data.

  6. Dr. Greger
    When will you address the cures demonstrated first in Wuhan, Shanghai, Taiwan and Japan and then reported by the group of American physicians and PhDs called the MATH+ treatment? Will you publicly deny that ascorbate IVs can cure the infection and vitamin D3 can drastically reduce the severity of the infection among the most susceptible groups by 10-20 times? How long can you ignore these facts? Dr. Thomas Levy and others from the Orthomolecular Medicine group have spelled out exactly how several treatments can and have cured the virus. That’s right – “cure”. Don’t you care about a quick, safe and effective cure? Maybe you should have started learning about vitamins and supplements 20 years ago instead of believing that they were irrelevant? How can you catch up? See Levy’s letter here http://orthomolecular.activehosted.com/index.php?action=social&chash=0777d5c17d4066b82ab86dff8a46af6f.167&s=0abcda16e49b914c590787af1fe13b27
    These facts about how the virus was cured in Wuhan are easily checked.
    Your response Doctor Greger?

    1. I suspect that he will stick with the results of good quality trials instead of just blindly believing the claims of ‘Dr” Andrew Saul and his pals..

      Why don’t you post some actual evidence for these claims from credible scientific journals? Perhaps because there isn’t any?

      You may choose to believe cranks like Levy but that’s really not a wise decision.

    1. Gertrude, thanks so much for the link! Some people sharing their experience with COVID on nextdoor had experiences that mirror this conclusion: the family member who had mild symptoms was negative for serum antibodies, while the family member who was hospitalized with more severe symptoms was positive for antibodies.

      ” Interestingly, some of the SARS-CoV-2-exposed healthcare workers with negative SARS-CoV-2-specific IgA and IgG serum titers had detectable SARS-CoV-2-specific IgA antibodies in their nasal fluids and tears. Moreover, SARS-CoV-2-specific IgA levels in nasal fluids of these healthcare workers were inversely correlated with patient age. Interpretation These data show that systemic IgA and IgG production against SARS-CoV-2 develops mainly in severe COVID-19, with very high IgA levels seen in patients with severe ARDS, whereas mild disease may be associated with transient serum titers of SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies but stimulate mucosal SARS-CoV-2-specific IgA secretion. The findings suggest four grades of antibody responses dependent on COVID-19 severity.”

  7. What’s worrying is the ideas of the granola-eating new age mums are merging with far right voices to give more momentum to the unfounded conspiracy theorist anti-vax movement:
    > https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/the-anti-vax-movements-radical-shift-from-crunchy-granola-purists-to-far-right-crusaders/

    … which is seriously undermining efforts to end the coronavirus pandemic:
    > https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01423-4

    What Draws The Far Right And Anti-Vaxxers To Lockdown Protests?
    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/anti-lockdown-protests-far-right-extremist-groups_uk_5ebe761ec5b65715386cb20d?guccounter=1

    1. “…granola-eating new age mums are merging with far right voices to give more momentum to the unfounded conspiracy theorist anti-vax movement”.

      Hard to believe that an official nutritionfacts comment can so blindly replicate the level of prejudice and passive-aggressiveness that characterizes the propagandist mainstream media.

      1. I agree with their sentiment, but “NutritionChat is not officially endorsed, but is run in good faith by enthusiastic volunteers and fans of NutritionFacts.org.”

        1. Hi David M.- thanks for your reply, but as “A person” said, I am CHAT not FACTS. :-)
          Also, those were not my own words, but taken from the links I’d posted for people to read and make up their own minds.
          Interesting that your main concern is my apparent passive-aggressiveness, when Mums are siding with the far right to boycott vaccinations, which could result in widespread disease and death.

  8. Note how quickly Dr. Greger passes over the vaccine issue in this video. I respect his approach.

    News reports of vaccines are very, very optimistic.

    Healthcare community reaction that I have encountered is largely pessimistic.

    Day and night discordance.

    My own take – there will be vaccines in record time. Yes. But I doubt that any will be both safe and effective. I do expect the usual concepts of “safe” and “effective” to be stretched significantly in order for these new vaccines to qualify. Or to be discarded altogether, accompanied by all sorts of earnest rationales – rationales which have not been used in prior evaluations of vaccine safety and effectiveness. Rationales based upon economic issues and political issues – not on public health.

    My own strategy: pneumococcal vaccine (a few months ago), and next season’s flu vaccine as it becomes available – particularly to reduce the likelihood of co-infections if infected with the Novel Coronovirus. This was advised to me by my Physician – I did not even need to raise the issue, it was raised to me. I concur with the reasoning. You don’t want to get multiple infections in this era: Novel Coronavirusplus plus flu and/or pneumococcal pneumonia. Continued strong vigilance with no vigilance-fatigue: ventilation, physical distancing, masking with eye protection, hand-washing / hand sanitizing, care in dealing with whatever enters the home, avoidance of public bathrooms, avoidance of restaurant take-out, avoidance of public transportation – including airline travel and taxi/Uber travel – for the duration. Allow others to beta-test any Coronovirus vaccine after it is in population-wide release, and maintain mild skepticism – wait until at least three million vaccinations have taken place before considering vaccination. Never volunteer. Rule of thumb in regards to all vaccinations: don’t be the first in line – don’t be the last in line. And exercise caution and careful judgement in most adult circumstances where vaccination is mandatory – military, healthcare industry, etc. Well-vetted mandatory childhood vaccinations being largely acceptable – we have family memory of the time prior to Diphtheria vaccine (the “two families: era) and prior to antibiotics (maggot wound dressings). And we have had relatives with deafness secondary to Rubella – deafness which would have been avoided had the Rubella vaccine been available at the time. HPV vaccine looks promising. Vaccines can be very good things – when carefully vetted and used appropriately.

    I am concerned as to whether the Novel Coronavirus vaccines – produced at nonexistent “warp speed” – remember, “warp speed” is a science fiction fantasy, violating basic precepts of Einsteinian physics – will be carefully vetted and used appropriately. Or will the vaccine just be a science fiction fantasy, violating basic precepts of vaccine development and distribution to populations – appropriate to people who attend Trekker conventions, but not to the population at large? My concern seems to be widespread in the health care community. I.e. – among the people who actually know what they are doing.

    No hurry on getting vaccinated with any of the Novel Coronavirus vaccines – but no global anti-vax approach, either.

    A lot of wait and see. And see. And see.

    But that’s just me. You do whatever you feel best – as you are guided by your locally licensed Physician.

    Yours in interest and in caution in this most interesting time to be alive and well – and trying to stay that way with the tools available –

    Vivamus

    1. Vivamus

      I am very much a ‘it’s the second mouse that gets the cheese’ kind of person myself. It’s great that someone else would take the risk of testing an unproven vaccine but I’m definitely not that brave.

  9. Vivamus, I have really enjoyed reading your comments.. thanks for sharing your experience and perspectives!

    Re: flu vaccine. Almost every year I receive the vaccine, and every year I also get the flu. This past winter I had the flu in December, and got sick again In February. This year however I have been hearing about this study, which talks about how receipients of the flu vaccine became more vulnerable to viral respiratory infections. Granted, the study is not talking about covid 19, but nonetheless, it gives me pause.
    The first link below, is the study to which I refer. The second link is a video by Dr John Campbell who brings this question to light. In the video description there is a summary (positive reasons for getting flu vaccine this year as well) and supporting links.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404712/?report=classic
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=utMREADbtAc

    “Interesting time to be alive and well — and trying to stay that way with the tools available.”

    OK, I agree! I was thinking about the ‘best purchases’ I made this year so far that are my tools to staying well among them being new runners, a new (used )bike, a bathroom scale, 5 tomato plants lol, a shopping tote on wheels.

    1. Barb,

      You are welcome.

      I have read and viewed your post and the links you provided.

      Of considerable interest.

      More later.

      Vivamus

    2. “it’s also important to note the study found evidence of significant protection by influenza vaccination against not only multiple forms of the flu, but other, very serious non-influenza viruses, such as parainfluenza, Respiratory Syncytial Virus (RSV), and non-influenza virus coinfections. It remains essential for people to obtain the seasonal flu shot each year as it becomes available.”
      https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/no-evidence-that-flu-shot-increases-risk-of-covid-19/

      1. Thanks Fumbles, I’ll take a look at your link. I haven’t decided yet, but I do know the flu shot has not worked for me yet. Not once in all the years I’ve received it. This past year was one of the worst…I got a precription for prednisone that really was a life saver.

        I have had the pneumonia vaccine, and I do intend to keep up with the current lifestyle of isolating, washing/cleaning, wearing a mask in stores, etc throughout the upcoming flu season whether I get a shot or not. (coincidendally, the 3 years I did not get a shot, I did not get the flu either. )

        1. Barb,

          Your experience with the flu vaccines is a mystery.

          I wonder if the vaccinations are guessing wrong for the mutations in your area or something.

          Here, do know that it helps very much some years and other year’s it is a total miss and they talk about the strains used on the news.

        2. Thanks Barb

          The first time I had a flu vaccine. I went down with the worst flu I have ever had three days later. Never took another one until I turned 65 …. no problems with those.

          My thinking was that the possible risk from flu increases exponentially once we are older and the side effect risk is pretty minor, so it’s a type of insurance premium. There’s a cost to you every year and you may never get a pay-out/benefit but it’s still the rational thing to do.

          As far as I can see, the main benefit from flu vaccines is at the public health level. On a personal level, the flu vaccine probably isn’t worth it for most healthy individuals under 65,considering the low likelihood of benefit, the cost and the risk of side effects. But it’s like wearing masks, you personally don’t get any real individual benefit but it has a significant effect at the public health level.

        3. Barb,

          . A meta-analysis of observational studies that used the test-negative design reported significant vaccine effectiveness of 52% (95% CI: 41-61) during seasons when the vaccine and viruses were well-matched versus when viruses were antigenically drifted, reported VE was 36% (95% CI: 22-48)

  10. Corona Ending via Vaccination, Herd immunity, mutation – or maybe there is a revulitionary variant including a medicine shift back to the human continuum.

    A long time back the economic forced the medicine into a big dilemma. With the commitment following economic purposes at first aroused the turn away from our continuum.
    From that point on there was no chance for medicine to keep the priorization on healing people without interferring the healingprocess.
    It left the medicin with the necessarity in having people needing treatment for all costs even if the symptoms therfore have to last longer.
    So we all suffered a blind spot starting small but getting bigger an bigger for centuries.
    Like a magician using the blind spot hiding trick parts to the audience some decision makers in medcine got aware of this blind spot of the mankind starting making use of it.

    Until now we have a medcinereligious virus putting the world in chains with no evidencebased proof!

    Especially Medcine has to follow the rules of science and cannot be allowed to be selfjustified medical beliefredunadance
    (just kept alive by cheated claims of evidence by well known Nobelprice (e.g. Gallo for HIV) carriers without ever revealing them also not
    getting forced to reveal them by justice because its enogh to justice that some VIPS of Medcine believe something without proof is true)!
    Major written rules of science are traceability, reproducibility, predictability.

    Everybody who denies these rules not delivering proof under these rules is under suspiciuos of fraud!

    The whole world suffers under the chains of CovidSars 2 so this needs to be broadcasted live.

    So Setting up an event controlling everything related with Covid19 neutral and independent chosen experts (hardest to achieve)
    documenting every step strictly tight to rules of science!
    supervised transparent and live broadcasted.

    With these topics:

    .) Determination of the protein in the body.
    .) Proof of its pathogenicy (direct link in causing symptoms by this protein )
    .) Proof of reproduction by its own – not in the reagent (this already is able of changing all natural circumstances stressing the protein in every possible way
    – so one of the most important point to discuss in medcine anyway to avoid mistakes by mischarging biolgical natural laws.)
    .) Extraction of the protein.
    .) Genetic mapping of the virus.

    Controlling the genemap with the chinese gentic map of covid which is based on every PCR Test(controlling the PCR Test – discussion and controll of description).

    Needless to say that Every step described has to follow strictly scientific rules and has to be documented under controlled surveillance and predetermined fraud free under 100% transparent circumstances.

    Compared to the costs of Covid these ridicolous amount of money to achieve believefree sciencebased facts would be funded by crowd easily if no warmhearted donor would jump in.

    I once heared from Doctor Greger an invitation for studymakers that he would sponsor up some intersting science.
    So maybe the biggest thing for the health on our planet would be worth a thought…. The Knowledge and the warm hearted attitude is
    surley with you! A admire your scientific evidence based kind of work! For many years I´ám a constant reader of your valuable source of truth!
    Are you aware of this situation?

    And my hopeful thoughts too
    a burdened earth citizen

  11. More fear mongering and COVID groupthink..Greger ends this with the unfounded assumptions “this virus will transform and get worse…be afraid!!” ..listen to your government and pharma shills..they wouldn’t hurt you!” This article is utterly wrong. Read what Beda M. Stadler, former Director of the University Institute of Immunology at the Insel Hospital in Bern, is emerited professor of Immunology from the Medical Faculty of the University of Bern – This is NOT a new virus – When the gene sequence, i.e., the blueprint of this virus, was identified and was given a similar name to the 2002 identified Sars, i.e., Sars-CoV-2, we should have already asked ourselves then how far [this virus] is related to other coronaviruses, which can make human beings sick. But no, instead, we discussed from which animal as part of a Chinese menu the virus might have sprung. In the meantime, however, many more people believe the Chinese were so stupid as to release this virus upon themselves in their own country.

    Now that we’re talking about developing a vaccine against the virus, we suddenly see studies that show that this so-called novel virus is very strongly related to Sars-1 as well as other beta-coronaviruses, which make us suffer every year in the form of colds.

    Apart from the pure homologies in the sequence between the various coronaviruses, which can make people sick, [scientists] currently work on identifying a number of areas on the virus in the same way as human immune cells identify them. This is no longer about the genetic relationship, but about how our immune system sees this virus, i.e., which parts of other coronaviruses could potentially be used in a vaccine.

    So: Sars-Cov-2 isn’t all that new, but merely a seasonal cold virus that mutated and disappears in summer, as all cold viruses do — which is what we’re observing globally right now. Flu viruses mutate significantly more, by the way, and nobody would ever claim that a new flu virus strain was completely novel. Many veterinary doctors were therefore annoyed by this claim of novelty, as they have been vaccinating cats, dogs, pigs, and cows for years against coronaviruses.

    1. You must not live in the USA or Mexico or Brazil or South Africa or other sites where it isn’t going away even though it has been hot Summer weather.

  12. How many money do you get from the psychopat Bill Gates, Merkel an Co.- Dr. Greger… all what you write about Covid 19 is such a bull shit…. I think, to many years of vegan kills the brain! Next week I will go back to omnivore food! Good by!!!!

    1. Agreed and just how did a high school drop out become self appointed czar of the world health? Oh I forgot…he’s a billionaire with a messiah complex – Gates vaccines for all agenda will kill us

      1. Penelope,

        You are using such exaggerated descriptives that I would like to ask you to try not to do that. It would make you more effective in communication.

        For instance, you said, ” Gates vaccines for all agenda will kill us” when, in reality, there have been vaccine movements for measles, mumps, polio, and all sorts of things and they are given all around the world now.

        For millions of people, vaccines have saved their lives from these conditions.

        I do know that, very rarely, people die. Very rarely.

        But, millions of lives are also saved.

  13. The Fairy Tale of No Immunity

    From the World Health Organisation (WHO) to every Facebook-virologist, everyone claimed this virus was particularly dangerous because there was no immunity against it – because it was a novel virus.

    Even Anthony Fauci, the most important advisor to the Trump administration, noted at the beginning at every public appearance that the danger of the virus lay in the fact that there was no immunity against it.

    The penny dropped when the first commercially available antibody test [for Sars-CoV-2] was put together from an old antibody test that was meant to detect Sars-1. This kind of test evaluates if there are antibodies in someone’s blood and if they came about through an early fight against the virus. [Scientists] even extracted antibodies from a llama that would detect Sars-1, Sars-CoV-2, and even the Mers virus.

    It also became known that Sars-CoV-2 had a less significant impact in areas in China where Sars-1 had previously raged. This is clear evidence urgently suggesting that our immune system considers Sars-1 and Sars-Cov-2 at least partially identical and that one virus could probably protect us from the other.

    That’s when it should have been realized that the entire world simply claimed that there was no immunity, but in reality, nobody had a test ready to prove such a statement. That wasn’t science, but pure speculation based on a gut feeling that was then parroted by everyone. To this day, there isn’t a single antibody test that can describe all possible immunological situations, such as: if someone is immune, since when, what the neutralizing antibodies are targeting, and how many structures exist on other coronaviruses that can equally lead to immunity.

    In mid-April, work was published by the group of Andreas Thiel at the Charité Berlin. A paper with 30 authors, amongst them the virologist Christian Drosten. It showed that 34 % of people in Berlin who had never been in contact with the Sars-CoV-2 virus showed nonetheless T-cell immunity against it (T-cell immunity is a different kind of immune reaction, see below).

    This means that our T-cells, i.e., white blood cells, detect common structures appearing on Sars-CoV-2 and regular cold viruses and therefore combat both of them.

    A study by John P A Ioannidis of Stanford University — according to the Einstein Foundation in Berlin, is one of the world’s ten most cited scientists — showed that immunity against Sars-Cov-2, measured in the form of antibodies, is much higher than previously thought.

    Ioannidis is certainly not a conspiracy theorist who just wants to swim against the stream; nonetheless, he is now being criticized, because the antibody tests used were not extremely precise. With that, his critics admit that they do not have such tests yet. And aside, John P A Ioannidis is such a scientific heavy-weight that all German virologists combined are a light-weight in comparison.

  14. How hilarious that the only way out of this is a vaccine! As per the CDC, This virus has a 0.26% death rate. As per Stanfords it has a death rate of almost 0% for those under 45 and a death rate of 0.04 to 0.3 to those aged 45-70. We need a vaccine for that? And an mRNA vaccine that will be rushed to market? And we will be forced to get this vaccine and be denied access to government services without it? This is fascist and appalling
    And just how are those guinea pig humans doing in the COVID vaccine trials? :
    Pfizer/BioNTech’s COVID-19 Vaccine has been found to cause Adverse Reactions in Over Half of Clinical Trial Volunteers.
    “In the trials, 12 of the adults were injected with a 10-microgram dose of the BNT162b1 vaccine, and 12 adults received a 30-µg dose, 12 a 100-µg dose, while nine adults were given a placebo of a sterile saline solution (0.9 percent sodium chloride injection, in a 0.5-mL dose). Within seven days after vaccination, seven (58.3 percent) of the participants in the 10-µg group reported adverse reactions (pain) near the injection site and 24–or 100 percent–in the 30-µg and 100-µg groups and two (22.2 percent) in the placebo group reported reactions. Severe pain was reported by one participant who received 100-µg dose.1 2

    Three weeks after the initial vaccination with the BNT162b1 vaccine, each one of the clinical trial participants was given a second dose of the vaccine at the same dosage. Of the participants in the 10-µg group, 8.3 percent developed fevers. Of those in the 30-µg group, 75 percent developed fevers. More than 50 percent of the adults, who were given either a 10-µg or 30-µg dose, experienced an adverse reaction such as fever and sleep disturbances.1 2

    Two participants suffered severe reactions. A Grade 3 fever of over 101.3°F two days after vaccination was experienced by one adult in the 30-µg group and sleep disturbance one day after vaccination was experienced by one adult in the 100-µg group.1 2

    Grade 3 reactions are described by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) as, “severe or medically significant but not immediately life-threatening; hospitalization or prolongation of hospitalization indicated; disabling; limiting self care” such as “bathing, dressing and undressing, feeding self, using the toilet, taking medications.”

    1. Penelope,

      The Stanford man is not an expert on any of it. He is a very bright man in his own field but he jumped outside of his expertise and made a simplistic excel sheet with incomplete data.

      In the meantime, consistently with the real deaths that have been verified by the real experts in the field 20% of the deaths in the USA are under age 65. The immunology site I was watching said that 30% of the deaths in the USA are people under 70 and they said that percentage has remained fairly constant, too.

  15. As of today around 1% of the US population are showing as COVID positive. Either we have many others who are positive and not tested, or we still have a ways to go in the lifecycle of the virus. Depending on how you look at it, and despite the media hysteria, this could be a good things as we still have the opportunity to “flatten the curve”.

  16. Dr Greger dont miss connecting things starving in analyzing rudimentary meaningfull studies – Open up your mind – life is more the magiciantrick starts way before the studies – we actually have no proof of any virus!! In germany Dr Stefan Lanka proved and trapped the Pharmamafia that there is no proof of the measlevirus!! He won on the highest court with judgment saying that theres no proof guven for existence of measle virus its all just genetic trick – weak characters a lot if money and fraud thats the mixture Covid comes from! Its Holocaust like 80 years back in History –

  17. I was listening to a group of immunologists and people asked them about masks and one of them said that, if you think about masks similar to how you think about herd immunity that we are hoping that 70% of the people wear masks and that will function closer to herd immunity.

    That was a powerful sentence to me because I do have some people who are stubborn anti-mask people but we don’t need to get into gun battles with crazy people.

    1. Also, even though Florida’s cases have been climbing, since the day Miami started threatening $100 fines to people who won’t wear facemasks, their cases have started dropping, without them closing down.

      I keep trying to copy the video, but it is CNN and it gave me the wrong one to post.

    1. From the article:

      “The COVID-19 vaccine trials won’t last for months but years as researchers watch for long-term side effects, so staying in touch is crucial.”
      – – – – – –

      Ouch! Long-term side effects?

        1. Maybe that’s their job, but I wouldn’t want to be the “watch-ee.” Long term could be how long? Years down the road?

          Then there are the optimists who think there’ll be a safe, effective vaccine thrown together by the end of the year.

          1. ” Long term could be how long? Years down the road?”

            Thirty years might be a good start.

            Or five – if you don’t want to actually find long-term effects.

            It depends on the motivation of who is doing the studies.

            Our crew is already alerted not to volunteer – though the alert was unnecessary.

            They are a pretty savvy bunch.

            As to the volunteers – well, I used to eat lamb.

            I wouldn’t feel right doing so, today.

            They have their path – I mine.

            Yours in health –

            Vivamus

          2. Dr Greger has volunteered for each of the bird flu vaccines.

            There are a small number of people who do have problems from vaccines. It is usually closer to 1 in a million but that is still a risk.

            If you are able to self-isolate, then it is probably better to let the younger people do it.

            I suspect they will have age and health guidelines for who they accept.

  18. I thought the nut season didn’t begin until September?

    Dr Greger might have attracted more varieties to the site if he had changed the title of the video to ‘how covid19 ends: vaccination EVOLUTION and herd immunity”.

    I couldn’t figure out how to work UFOs into the title. You would have had the full set then.

    1. Monsieur,

      In reading through recent posts, I am returned to an earlier time, when I dealt with – among others – a number of schizophrenics.

      Some on – and some off – their medications.

      Nice people, actually. Very polite.

      To me.

      I always treated them with respect.

      Plus – your usual array of manic-depressives (now called bi-polars), depressive psychotics, etc.

      Plus – their psychiatrists.

      Who was crazier?

      Spin the bottle.

      Reading recent posts on NutritionFacts brings all this back.

      Schizophrenia, particularly. The disordered pressured thinking.

      Don’t worry too much about them – they have a right to be who they are.

      I am thankful for their presence, actually – for you see, they bring back memories of those times.

      And those memories, well –

      There was a nurse – she was an Angel in white – not a patient.

      She loved poetry.

      And collecting first editions.

      Let’s see if I can find it.

      She wrote it out by hand – on what we used to call a “letter.”

      Perhaps you’ve seen them in museums.

      Giving proper credit.

      Perhaps you can see why I might have been fond of her.

      Be kind –

      Vivamus

      ———————————————————-

      Sonnet 29

      Pity me not because the light of day
      At close of day no longer walks the sky;
      Pity me not for beauties passed away
      From field and thicket as the year goes by;
      Pity me not the waning of the moon,
      Nor that the ebbing tide goes out to sea,
      Nor that a man’s desire is hushed so soon,
      And you no longer look with love on me.
      This have I known always: Love is no more
      Than the wide blossom which the wind assails,
      Than the great tide that treads the shifting shore,
      Strewing fresh wreckage gathered in the gales:
      Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
      What the swift mind beholds at every turn.

      Edna St. Vincent Millay

      1. Vivamus

        Yes, I think that sometimes too.

        But then I think of how many unnecessary deaths might result from ordinary citizens listening to the constant babble of these people and perhaps believing it if nobody bothers to refute it or at least disagree with them. As I see it, the risk is that they will win the argument by default if rational people stay silent.

        Should we then in all conscience stay quiet when these people deluge the internet and other media with their terminolgical inexactitudes and counterfactual statements? Ultimately, lives are at stake here.

        1. Monsieur,

          I understand your thoughts in this matter – and I respect them.

          You are not wrong.

          You and I currently approach things differently – but it may not always have been so.

          A few days ago – when? – one day falls into another –

          No Mini-Mental Status Examination for me! Nosir!
          https://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&noSaveAs=1&Rendition=Primary&allowInterrupt=1&dDocName=dhs16_159601

          Not unless I am the one giving it. ;-)

          . . . I was walking towards people in a parking lot a few days ago – walking towards a store –

          What’s this? A loud angry unmasked lady and her hulking unmasked male companion – likely wife and husband tag team, but I was not lookin’ at rings – seemed to have accosted a hapless lone masked woman coming out of the store, cart full of bags, and was haranguing her. Something about “masks just make it more likely that you will get sick, not less.” Something about moisture. All in angry tones and high volume. Indignation.

          The masked lady remained silent.

          My path drew me closer to them.

          The question – whether or not to intervene?

          The anger was continuous.

          I generally like to help. What to do?

          The anger in her voice. The backup – not small – husband. The frozen victim.

          Helping is what I do.

          Born and bred.

          It’s like breathing for me.

          But then a phrase came to me. Out of the ether. A phrase my brother uses.

          I have always rejected the phrase. It is coarse, crude, and unkind, I tell him. And reflects poorly on the user. He should never, ever say it.

          But this time – it is came in loud and clear.

          “You can’t fix stupid.”

          And I thought – yup. Yup. Brother is right. (I carry his presence inside of me).

          You can’t fix stupid. It’s a waste of time for everyone involved.

          It is better to just let this one fizzle out and cool down on its own.

          Or in Internet terms: do not feed the troll.

          And that is what my brother means – his time is precious – overbooked – so he makes his judgements quickly and he does not waste a moment of his time on fools. And he does not look back.

          Perhaps – perhaps I have been wrong all these years.

          Perhaps he has been right.

          You may be at a different stage, looking from a different perspective.

          And that is fine, too.

          But don’t be surprised if one day that phrase comes up on you like a locomotive out of nowhere – and you decide it is time to walk on by.

          Mr. Fumblefingers.

          All the best –

          Vivamus

          ————————-

          . . . I am a part of all that I have met . . .

          from Ulysses
          Alfred, Lord Tennyson

          1. Thanks Vivamus.

            I agree but then I am not trying to fix stupid. My aim is to alert the casual viewer to the facts and to point out that these people are not not just reasonable people with a different take on things. They are individuals who simply refuse to accept reality and try to explain away why the facts don’t fit their opinions by inventing some absurd global conspiracy. That’s fine if that’s all it is. It becomes a problem when they shout false ‘facts’ from the rooftops to try to persuade others to follow their lead.

            In other circumstances, their behaviour might just be regarded as a mental health issue that deserves our sympathy. However, it’s painfully obvious that eg anti-vaxxer beliefs are killing people and the covid 19 sceptics might be equally culpable.
            https://medium.com/the-method/anti-vaccination-is-killing-children-in-europe-658415c54a04

            Deb’s doing a fine job of presenting the real facts but these people just ignore the facts

            “Don’t confuse me with facts. I’ve already made up my mind.”

        2. Tom,

          You are right. They constantly babble and do it in a way as if they are looking down on everybody and some people who are susceptible will believe them and I think about the 30-year-old who died recently in Texas and he said, “I think I made a mistake” and I will add “about who to listen to.”

          A lot of people are believing the lies and that is because so many people like Gundry and Dr. Popper have backed their position.

          If nobody stands up for the opposite position, more people will believe them and more people will die.

      2. Vivamus, Thanks for posting the Millay poem. She is one on my favorite poets. Here’s one that she wrote in honor of the beauty of mathematical and logical thought:

        Euclid alone has looked on Beauty bare.

        Let all who prate of Beauty hold their peace,

        And lay them prone upon the earth and cease

        To ponder on themselves, the while they stare

        At nothing, intricately drawn nowhere

        In shapes of shifting lineage; let geese

        Gabble and hiss, but heroes seek release

        From dusty bondage into luminous air.

        O blinding hour, O holy, terrible day,

        When first the shaft into his vision shone

        Of light anatomized! Euclid alone

        Has looked on Beauty bare. Fortunate they

        Who, though once only and then but far away,

        Have heard her massive sandal set on stone.

        — Edna St Vincent Millay

        Euclid is probably one of the most famous, and certainly one of the most influential mathematicians of all time; his ‘Elements’, a massive compilation of the mathematical knowledge of time (around 300 BC) revolutionized the field, setting the standard for rigor that even now characterizes mathematics.

        1. Darwin Galt,

          You are welcome.

          And thank you for the poem. It is new to me.

          It will take some rereading it to grok it in its fullness.

          Mathematics and beauty. Yes.

          Yes.

          I remember . . .

          Her name was – well, that would be telling.

          Long brunette hair.

          There was scent in the air.

          A dancer.

          (She moved in circles, and those circles moved).

          – Roethke

          A math major – as spacey as math majors come – if you have ever known any, you would know that the good ones live on a different plane – was that where we met? – pretty – feminine – kind.

          Good.

          She made me better. The good ones generally do.

          Philology.

          Proto-Indo-European.

          Music.

          I think you would enjoy her story – but I have told too many stories today, and it is well past time I retired.

          We were very fond of one another.

          She was so happy the day she could finally imagine an N-dimensional space!

          And I was happy for her.

          (You have to be a mathematician to actually understand.)

          Thank you for sparking a wonderful memory of a wonderful girl.

          This has been old-home memory week.

          But you know – it may be time to be creating some new memories.

          You take care –

          Vivamus

          ——————————–

          . . . Love likes a gander, and adores a goose:
          Her full lips pursed, the errant note to seize;
          She played it quick, she played it light and loose;
          My eyes, they dazzled at her flowing knees;
          Her several parts could keep a pure repose,
          Or one hip quiver with a mobile nose
          (She moved in circles, and those circles moved) . . .

          from I Knew a Woman
          Theodore Roethke

          1. Darwin Galt,

            I just reread the poem you contributed.

            Again.

            “Let all who prate of Beauty hold their peace”

            Millay

            The girl and I were known as “The Beauty and the Beast.”

            It brings it back.

            I – I was not the Beauty.

            It would have been fun to have known this poem, then.

            Wherever she is, I wish her well.

            Good day –

            Vivamus

    2. Mr. Fumblefingers,

      Thanks for your comment about nut season starting in September; hilarious.

      Many of the comments on this site are puzzling: why would these commenters accept evidence-based nutrition conclusions, and completely disdain evidence-based medical conclusions, especially in the fields of infectious diseases and the immune system? Instead, they embrace conspiracy theories. It seems a mental disconnect; a cognitive dissonance.

      It’s too bad; I used to find many comments informative, educational, even entertaining. Now I find them too often to be the opposite.

  19. Twelve hours (was it really twelve hours?) in N95s and goggles yesterday. Lunch break: strip down, fluid up, watery fruits and veggies and avocado toast up, fresh gear, back to the races. Yesterday’s clothes now in a plastic bag (sealed) piled with the other sealed plastic bags – I’ll be masked and goggled while doing laundry – full soapy rubby shower x2 with exhaust fan running prior to finally sitting down and eating dinner last night. All likely touched surfaces cleaned with soapy sponge. Finally taking a good deep breath. Ahhhhhhh . . . that felt good. Be grateful for breathing air – little things in life count so much. Largest immediate concern – outside of the virus – is avoiding dehydration. Lots of fluid-filled foods – melon, grapes, pears, tomatoes, oranges – whatever – slow fluid absorption over time via digestion, unlike drinking fluids which only provide a quick fluid hit – you learn your own body as you go along. Mentally alert after dinner, but clearly physically buffeted – a little stiff and slow – mentally alert scanning information via computer – there is so much to know! – but physically catching oneself while falling asleep sitting up. Complete loss of muscle tone, then jerking awake while I am coming down. Finally going to bed as required for physical safety – don’t want to come crashing down off the desk onto the floor – people would talk – body oddly stiff and slow with movement – it’s like walking underwater on the moon – I don’t remember ever having to hit the sack before because of sleep related physical collapse issues.

    Well, something similar once, years back, come to think of it. Pre-computer era. Ordered to go to sleep. Yessir. Another time.

    This time I had to order myself.

    Life comes full circle.

    Next day (today) – reddish areas on face from the respirators and goggles – hasn’t happened previously – guess I am going have to start taping up prior to donning. Anybody have any favorite taping tips? No duct tape or learned peer-reviewed literature, thank you – genuine knowledge might be nice. We are talking human facial skin. At least I think I’m still human.

    This AM vitals are strange – pulse 46, which is 10 beats per minute lower than it has ever been (yesterday was a typical 56-58 – our crew has found it helpful to keep journals in these extraordinary times).

    This AM: pulse 59 when standing (normally 71-78) – odd – never had that, before – certainly argues against dehydration. Temperature 96.8 – known accurate old-school mercury thermometer taken routinely and correctly – really – lower than it has ever been. All other vitals normal for me – respiration rate: 12-15, pO2: 96-97, smell: coconut, cinnamon, oregano, vanilla, freshly mortared cloves, freshly mortared black pepper – all normal – feelin’ fine – respiratory, GI, neuro, urinary tract – all systems go. Today in recovery mode – takin’ it slow and easy. We’ll see if anything develops.

    Pulse 46. Strange. Couldn’t believe it – never happened before. Musta done it wrong. Rechecked it manually, twice. 46. That can’t be. No – it’s real.

    Overhydration? Can one actually overdose on fresh fruits and veggies? The watermelon was epoch – flavorful, crunchy and plentiful. Yum. I don’t think so. But could be.

    Cardiovascular? Hope not. I don’t wanna go there. Where in the world did I put the sphygmomanometer? Haven’t seen it since the last time I cleaned up – was it years ago? – I wish I wouldn’t do that. Now – if I was me – which I am pretty sure I am (pinches self – ouch!) – where would I have put it?

    Virus? Hope not. We’ll see.

    Or just one of those things – perhaps stress-related – that will return to normal on it’s own.

    That is why you sometimes just step back and repeat tests in non-emergent situations.

    And watch things go away.

    Denial vs. reality: that’s why members of our crew are tracking vitals and systems (respiratory, digestive, cardiac, neuro, musculoskeletal, ocular, urinary tract, hepatic, etc.) during this high-risk time. Denial is a typical human default: “Hey – I’m fine.” We need a raised level of suspicion to force early action if necessary. I don’t think I am facing denial at this time – but people deny being in denial – I have to watch myself – a known issue for me.

    If anything – it would be denial over cardiovascular issues.

    I just pushed in that direction – much resistance pushing back – I simply do not want to go there.

    Hmmm . . .

    We’ll see tomorrow morning.

    ————————————-

    Three hour nap . . . refreshed.

    One of our crew put a shout out for information to fight his local school reopening prematurely.

    We put something together for him.

    We’re in this together – and there’s always something –

    Vivamus

  20. Many people here trust the government shutdown, trust the Covid19 vaccine that is being rushed through safety studies, trust the news, trust Bill Gates. Good for you. I am happy for you. When the vaccine comes out, go ahead and get it. But I think I will wait and see how it goes for you before I get it. If everything looks good and you guys are doing fine, then I’ll consider getting it when I’m over 60. I’ve been exposed over 5 times with confirmed cases. If I was going to die, I probably would have already.

    1. Sherry,

      I think you misunderstand. It may well be that nobody here trusts the news. The other day, Rich Roll asked Dr. Greger which news media he trusts, and Dr. Greger doesn’t use news outlets for his resources. I do not trust the news from either direction. I also do not trust the YouTube version of the deep secrets news.

      As far as Bill Gates goes, I have wanted billionaires to try to solve some of these global problems, and that doesn’t mean that I will agree with every single thing he does. I did like the concept of a simulated pandemic, though, I felt like both the CDC and WHO and most governments botched things almost immediately, so I do have questions of what the simulation accomplished. I do feel like the CDC and WHO contributed to the confusion by how they communicated at the beginning and now, they are trying to communicate things like “wear masks” when the bulk of the population seems more concerned with finances and it is not the most effective time to communicate that message and I do believe if they had been less authoritative against masks in the beginning, they would have an easier time now and if they had been more vocal about the potential for pandemic, NYC might have shut down earlier and we could have avoided the situation we have seen in the USA. Shutting down after community spread isn’t going to get rid of pandemics, it allows the hospitals to not be overwhelmed.

      In the Northeast, several of the hospitals did become overwhelmed back then. Now, it is the hospitals in places like Florida that are already operating at 130% capacity.

      The shutdowns were never meant to last forever and nobody was against re-opening.

      The shutdowns were to give time for the hospitals to get PPE, figure out beds, figure out makeshift ICU ability, figure out if any drugs work, and learn how to treat the disease. Now, we have some medicines that are being looked at. We learned about Vitamin D. We learned which comorbidities we needed to look at. We learned about how things like printing helped patients. We learned enough that fewer people who go to the ICU are dying, even though there are a lot of people in ICU’s.

      If we hadn’t shut down at all, we would have had the same spread we are having now back when there were no PPE’s and not nearly the same amount of ventilators. So much preparation happened before this summer spike. The people who are able to not get this before the fall may have plasma and that seems to lower the deaths by 94%. If we hadn’t shut down, that 94% would have died.

      So many teachers died in NY and so many medical people have died, and none of Americans had masks to wear and none of us were used to social distancing and all of the grocery stores needed to set up things like plexiglass.

      Our draconian shut-down amounted to less than 50% of the USA economy shut down and that was because we needed to figure out how to do things safely.

      Sports is still working on what they have to do to open and my coworker listens to it every day and it is interesting because it is the process that every business and every college and every grade school has to do.

      Thousands of younger people have died and 20% of the deaths are under the age of 65 in the USA. If we had let it run away, we would have had so many young people dying.

      As it is, every day I am hearing about infants dying and 30-year-olds dying and 20-year-olds going to a party and having his father end up in the ICU.

      There was so much to evaluate and the lockdown were only about delaying the inevitable that many may live and I do believe that there were many lives saved by doing that process and I am in favor of things being open now, but there is a reality that I know that most of the parents that I know are not going to send their kids back to school and my friends won’t go to the movies or eat inside a restaurant. My father will. But I won’t. And the public will not go back to behaving “prepandemic normal” yet. It will happen, but if you look at pandemics past, we are doing really, really, really well.

      1. No Deb, I am not misunderstandings anything. People are being ridiculed on this forum. It is a big country. Your point of view might fit where you live or maybe in the cities, but it does not fit where I live. It is easier for me to see the lies because our hospitals were never overwhelmed and our draconian measures got worse as things improve over the summer. The news is not reporting the truth at all. These are obvious politically motivated scare tactics to me and to many other people. The “facts” don’t fit reality, and people who notice that don’t deserve to be ridiculed and shut down when they explore other possibilities for something that has ruined lives and removed their rights. I know there are stories about people getting sick and dying. I can tell you my own story of almost dying from the flu last winter. The flu deaths are being counted as a Covid19 deaths now. If I had died last year it would have been the flu, this year it would have been Covid that killed me. Those are the instructions the hospitals have been given when gathering data.

        Listen to what the doctors are saying about this, things they can’t say officially without losing their jobs. Do you think doctor’s are panicked about this? Do you think they are talking about it like you are on this chat, debating the “facts”? They were at first, but now they know people are not overwhelming the hospitals any more than a normal flu season. They aren’t waiting for a magical immunization to feel safe like you guys. They know how the numbers are exaggerated first hand. They know the tests aren’t reliable. I wonder how you can even test a vaccine when you can’t reliably test for the disease yet. Even the CDC paperwork on the tests say the tests cannot rule out other diseases. Doctors have complained about those tests from the beginning. The doctors think we are all going to get it eventually, and it is better to open up the country NOW during the summer, not when the next flu season hits the hospitals. They were all exposed multiple times and either got it or didn’t get it. They know what they are dealing with now.

        1. I lived in the Northeast where we went from zero cases to tens of thousands of cases in 2 weeks and I know of so many people who have died and I have watched the overwhelmed doctors and hear about them now in Florida and Texas and so many states.

          As far as the numbers being exaggerated, the “flu” seasons are adjusted at the end of the season and those numbers go way up when they start adding in the people who die outside of hospitals. I do know people who died at home after having been tested.

          We haven’t counted the nursing homes deaths before May 1st and they said that they don’t have to be counted, but the CDC will count them eventually.

          Are there false positives, yes, but there are even more false negatives because of it not always being caught by nasal swabs – if the virus is in the GI tract.

          Are there “over-estimates” yes, but there are also underestimates. People here were sent home very often for the first few months because there wasn’t room in the hospitals and I do know people who died at home.

          The country IS OPEN but you are still using the “opening up” logic, but over 50% of the country never closed and almost everything is open now and the majority of states have an R Naught above 1 and they are having increases in hospitalizations, ICU admissions and 5 states have started having the increases in deaths that are associated with more cases and they will not be able to treat other illnesses without exposing people to COVID-19 and that is happening in several states now.

          And this is summer and we have as many cases as we had in the spring, just in different states.

          It has gotten less deadly now, but it is still remaining that 20% of the deaths are people under 65 and if you listened to the news, you would hear the last words of a 30-year-old who went to a party and you would hear about a 4-month-old infant dying with COVID. Or about how many of the ICU’s are filled with much younger people now. And the doctors are saying that it is like a tsunami hit or like they had a big bus crash every single day.

                1. Arkansas is 3rd in the country with COVID-19 hospitalizations per capita

                  https://katv.com/news/local/arkansas-gov-hutchinson-holding-covid-19-briefing

                  Louisiana issues a mask mandate as death tolls rise

                  https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/11/coronavirus-update-us/

                  Idaho, the state is in a very bad situation but nobody is talking about it. Listed in the states that are per capita worse than Texas and California

                  https://bestlifeonline.com/idaho-coronavirus/

                  Alabama records record-breaking hospitalizations for 5 straight days.

                  https://www.alreporter.com/2020/07/20/alabama-reports-record-covid-19-hospitalizations-for-five-straight-days/

                  I could seriously keep going, but I am cat sitting this week. Or a cat is sitting on me.

    2. Okay, you have made me re-look up the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

      Because I tend to like them and I know that it isn’t all that popular a position right now.

      The primary goals of the foundation are:

      to globally enhance healthcare
      to globally reduce extreme poverty,
      and, in the U.S., to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology.

      Okay, lets start with vaccines.

      The foundation gave over 3 billion dollars for the following vaccines:

      Human Papillomavirus vaccine
      Polio vaccine
      Japanese Encephalitis vaccine
      Meningococcal vaccine
      Measles and rubella vaccine
      Pneumococcal vaccine
      Typhoid vaccine
      Cholera vaccine
      Rotavirus vaccine
      Yellow fever vaccine
      Pentavalent vaccine
      Diphteria, tetanus, pertussis,
      Haemophilus influenza
      Hepatitis B

      Plus, 338 million specifically for TB med development and 334 million for malaria drug development and 968 million for a company for innovating vaccines.

      And 777 million toward fighting AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria.

      And 400 million for the Rotary Club (educational scholarships and they help get people vaccinated against polio)

      Those are what people are throwing stones at him about.

      Man, he could have kept it all for himself. I seriously don’t have even one stone to throw.

      They also gave over a billion and a half dollars toward funding the WHO.

      And 635 million toward innovations and implement solutions that save lives and improve health, especially among women and girls.

      And 738 million toward UNICEF (humanitarian aid to children)

      340 million for International Bank for Reconstruction and Development – to help developing nations

      162 million for CARE – emergency relief and humanitarian aid.

      There are also universities and nutritional research and I am tired of looking things up.

      If Bill Gates hadn’t put all of that money in, so many people would have died from so many things.

      I will put him and Mark Rober talking about eating animals.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k-V3ESHcfA

      1. I am going to post how many people were dying before we started vaccinating here and I want to thank Bill Gates personally. He has invested billions into not having these numbers come back.

        Annual deaths before versus cases reported after vaccination 2017

        Smallpox before vaccinations 29,005 deaths/year after vaccinations zero cases 2017
        Diptheria before vaccinations 21,053 deaths/year after vaccinations zero cases 2017
        Pertussis before vaccinations 200,752 deaths/year after vaccinations 18,975 cases 2017
        Tetanus before vaccinations 580 deaths/year after vaccinations 33 cases 2017
        Polio before vaccinations 16,316 deaths/year after vaccinations 0 cases 2017
        Measles before vaccinations 538,217 deaths/year after vaccinations 120 cases 2017
        Mumps before vaccinations 162,344 deaths/year after vaccinations 6,109 cases 2017
        Rubella before vaccinations 47,745 deaths/year after vaccinations 7 cases 2017
        CRS before vaccinations 152 deaths/year after vaccinations 5 cases 2017
        Haemophilus Influenza before vaccinations 20,000 deaths/year after vaccinations 33 cases 2017

        Deaths per year before vaccination and deaths per year after vaccination 2016

        Hepatitis A before vaccinations 117,333 deaths/year after vaccinations 4,000 deaths 2016
        Hepatitis B before vaccinations 66,232 deaths/year after vaccinations 20,900 deaths 2016
        Pneumococcus before vaccinations 63,067 deaths/year after vaccinations 30,400 deaths 2016
        under 5 years old before vaccinations 16,069 deaths/year after vaccinations 1,700 deaths 2016
        Rotavirus before vaccinations 62,500 deaths/year after vaccinations 30,625 deaths 2016
        Varicella before vaccinations 4,085,120 deaths/year after vaccinations 102,128 deaths 2016

          1. He has also specifically said that he is not involved with any organization that is involved with manufacturing microchips of any type.

            1. But there are researchers who are looking at microchip necklaces so that doctors could tell whether someone has been vaccinated. There is also an invisible ink concept where the ink glows for 5 years and that concept does not appeal to me.

              The necklaces sound more practical than implants but those topics are where people start getting really paranoid and what we know about culture is that first some nice inventor invents them, and then, some money grubber learns how to make money off of it, and eventually some stereotypical bad person figures out how to exploit the technology for evil purposes. But by then, there will be Apple microchip 7 Plus.

              https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/invisible-ink-could-reveal-whether-kids-have-been-vaccinated/

              1. And, no, it doesn’t appear that Bill Gates gave money to the university where the microchip necklace person goes to school.

          2. I didn’t know that Russia had a recent polio outbreak.

            I see Bill Gates heart that only 3 countries hadn’t finished eradicating polio and one of those only has slightly over 100 cases, but Russia had an outbreak and the whole world could get it back if they don’t succeed.

    1. We’ve discussed it a few times.

      Basically Hall appears to be just just venting her prejudices. Greger doesn’t claim death can be cured by veganism. Stating that he does is either a deliberate misrepresentation of his book or just plain stupid.

      Perhaps somebody else can do a detailed critique of Hall’s article but given its title, why bother dignifying it with a response? Is she seriously saying that Greger claims that death can be cured by veganism?

      1. Personally I’m more worried about the bias and limitations of the so-called plant-based doctors than about the blindness of omnivorists.

        1. I don’t see that relying on what good quality scientific studies show, instead of just accepting your hypotheses, is a problem to be worried about.

          1. There are many studies that Dr Greger use that are of poor quality, and many, many other studies that he doesn’t talk about. Just on the only topic of cholesterol and viral infection, one could do a serie of video that is longer than the whole Greger’s COVID-19 serie.

            1. I’d be interested in seeing the studies about cholesterol and viral infection that you find so convincing..

              One reason why I’m a little sceptical about your view is that all cells including immune system cells use cholesterol. It’s essential for the production of new immune system killer cells for example. Much of that cholesterol might be produced within the cells but scavenging free cholesterol from the blood stream might speed up the production of immune system killer cells. This could explain why in people with infections, and/or trauma their blood cholesterol levels decline.
              https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/146/7/558/100273
              https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC374382/

              It might also explain why high cholesterol,is so common in certain populations – it may promote eg CVD in the long term but on the other hand it might provide a significant short term survival advantage through an increased ability to fight infection.

              1. There are dozens of studies showing that cholesterol-rich environment favors the viral infection and entry into host cells with many different type of viruses, including SARS-CoV and the late SARS-Cov-2.

                During viral infection, the immune system produces interferon type 1 which are signaling molecules telling to cells to reduce their own cholesterol production, meaning that it is a host defense mechanism to diminish cholesterol production in order to counteract the viral infection.

                Host Defense against Viral Infection Involves Interferon Mediated Down-Regulation of Sterol Biosynthesis
                https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1000598

                But biophysically, it actually triggers an afflux of blood cholesterol (thus dietary cholesterol) into the cells and tissues, which is actually a very dangerous situation in people with COVID-19 risks factors, as they may already have high cholesterol levels in cells. The cholesterol thus saturates and crystallizes, creating systemic inflammation.

                ” As cholesterol increases with age and inflammation (e.g. smoking and diabetes), the cell surface is coated with viral entry points and optimally assembled viral entry proteins. Importantly our model suggests high levels of cholesterol is most alarming in the tissue, not the blood. In fact, rapidly dropping cholesterol in the blood may indicate severe loading of cholesterol in peripheral tissue and a dangerous situation for escalated SARS-CoV-2 infectivity”

                Cholesterol and COVID19 lethality in elderly
                https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.09.086249v1.full.pdf

                1. This systemic inflammation thus is not sepsis but cholesterol crystals induced inflammation, which is quite different.

                  This may also be why a lack of interferon type 1 has been associated with disease severity, as less interferon type 1 might inhibit the endogenous cholesterol down-regulation thus favoring the viral infection.

                  Type 1 Interferon Deficiency: A Blood based Signature for Detecting Patients at Risk of Severe Covid-19
                  https://presse.inserm.fr/en/type-1-interferon-deficiency-a-blood-based-signature-for-detecting-patients-at-risk-of-severe-covid-19/40261/

                  This mechanism pertains to the innate immune system and not the acquired immune system and it’s why I said that COVID-19 is a disease of the innate immune system, not of the acquired immune system and why vaccines are useless against COVID-19.

  21. Vaccine propaganda at its finest.

    Covid-19 is not a disease of the acquired immunity but a disease of innate immunity and that’s why supplementation with interferon type 1 has been shown to prevent severe diseases.

    Interferon type 1 are the messenger telling to the cells to stop producing endogenous cholesterol.

    But the question is: why Dr Greger, who is supposed to talk about nutrition, don’t talk at all about the crucial role of cholesterol in viral infection and its relationship with the innate immune system instead of making whole videos turning around the bush and only repeating what the mainstream media and so-the called medical authorities (which are highly corrupt in their approach of medecine) are saying ?

      1. It is not “me” but the science that shows that COVID-19 is a pathology of the innate immune system which renders vaccines useless.

        Do vaccines treat people affected with COVID-19 ? No.

        So why Dr Greger wants everyone to get vaccinated, while at the same time ignoring the science of nutrition pertaining to the biological mechanisms of viral infection and showing that animal foods in a population favors the ecosystemic viral load and diffusion of the virus.

        Is is that doctors are so poorly educated in biology ?

        Dr Greger seems to prefer that everyone gets a COVID-19 vaccine while promoting his “plant-based” nutrition, instead of everyone to have a healthy starch-based plant nutrition.

        No offense intended, but you seem to be the puppet of Dr Greger’s way of thinking and to pass your time to defend the views presented in this blog.

        But you are blind to the fact that the information presented on this site is very limited and only a tiny portion of the science that is actually available.

        Sadly, true science is denied by both medical authorities, omnivorists and plant-based activists.

        You have still to learn the difference between true doctors and mere plant-based activists.

        1. The reason I follow Greger is that he seems to report the science accurately, as best I can tell.

          All health authorities seem to advise us to eat more whole grains, fruits and vegetables, That’s pretty much a whole food plant based diet by any other name. The only difference between Greger and mainstream science on this point is the amount of animal foods recommended in the diet. That’s a minor disagreement to my mind. Animal foods are probably essential to obtain sufficient B12, selenium, iodine etc in the diet which is why mainstream authorities continue to recommend them. Greger acknowledges this point by recommending B12 etc supplements to ‘vegan’ WFPB dieters.

          In any case, it’s not a case of plant-based doctors refusing to accept your contentions. I’m not aware of any mainstream health authority that accepts your position that infectious diseases are promoted by consumption of animal foods. Or one that accepts your contention that ‘It is not “me” but the science that shows that COVID-19 is a pathology of the innate immune system which renders vaccines useless.’ for that matter.

          Finally, your statement ‘true science is denied by both medical authorities, omnivorists and plant-based activists’ brings us neatly back to my original question;

          “So, in summary, everyone else is wrong and you are right?”

          1. If one may suggest, don’t follow anyone but look by yourself.

            What the so-called health authorities are stating as an “ideal diet” and what people actually eat are two very different things. Authorities don’t recommend meat and animal products because they are healthy or necessary, but because they constitute large parts of the economy and are engrammed into the cultural matrix.

            In fact, it is scientifically unfounded to claim that animal foods have special nutrients into them that would make them necessary to eat and to incorporate into a daily diet, unlike plant foods which are for example our only source of vitamin C that our body can not produce by itself.

            This is however the common belief, or more exactly, a marketing statement made by omnivorist industries making money with the sales of animal foods to say that they are necessary.

            No one ever died from meat or animal products deficiency, or maybe in some rare cases of particular genetic diseases.

            The current dogma says that pharmaceutical vaccines are necessary to protect oneself from viruses. However, not so long ago, human beings didn’t even know about the existence of viruses, and we have clearly survived to millions of years of dangers and epidemies in our natural environement without any pharmaceutical vaccine.

            As for vitamin B12, here what the science is saying:
            https://nutritionfacts.org/video/would-zinc-lozenges-help-with-covid-19/#comment-608649

          2. Mainstream science or health advices are generally nothing more than cultural propaganda, often baked by vested interests, plain stupidity, shortness of view or pure blindness. Nothing to do with true science.

            Mainstream science is often dogma based on weak hypothesis and beliefs. Just look at what they have done with global warming, supposedly caused by the trace gase CO2.

            True scientists are horrified by the numerous claims of mainstream science and by the so-called health advices that are propagated by the media.

          3. “Probiotic bacteria, as well as commensal bacteria found in the human gut, such as Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium, can de novo synthesize and supply vitamins to human body. In humans, members of the gut microbiota are able to synthesize vitamin K, as well as most of the water‐soluble B vitamins, such as cobalamin, folates, pyridoxine, riboflavin, and thiamine.”

            Biosynthesis of Vitamins by Probiotic Bacteria
            https://www.intechopen.com/books/probiotics-and-prebiotics-in-human-nutrition-and-health/biosynthesis-of-vitamins-by-probiotic-bacteria

            It is clear that if vitamin B12 deficiency is a real thing, it is then a gut/microbiome disorder, and vitamin B12 supplementation is not actually treating the cause of deficiency,

            1. The only known and natural way to actually reset the microbiome in humans is by fasting, which our ancestors surely had to do many times in their life due to environmental and climatic conditions.

              So fasting might be a necessary step when transitioning to a healthy plant nutrition in order to avoid vitamin B12 deficiency and perhaps other types of deficiency caused by a gut or microbiome disorder.

              No controlled trials on vitamin B12 levels actually incorporated fasting into the studies.

            2. The same way, if the link between vitamin K deficiency and COVID-19 severity is actually true, it also indicates that COVID-19 severity may be caused by a gut/microbiome disorder, which is not unlikely, as it has been shown that microbiome might actually control our immune system and not the other way around…

              The gut microbiota shapes intestinal immune responses during health and disease
              https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19343057/

      2. Vaccines are the most inefficient way to treat a coronavirus infection.

        Not only they do not treat the disease when you have it, but they are not available when the epidemy starts.

        And when a new virus shows its face, you complain about hundred of thousands of deaths, that are the responsibility of people who are defending vaccines as a universal way of treating infections.

    1. Truthisfreedomandlove,

      That might be symbolically true even now.

      But people are afraid of all sorts of things, including the economy, vaccinations, getting hypoxia from masks, etc.

      And, at the same time, there is a subset of society that doesn’t have what I would call healthy fear – the fear of being hit by a car if you stand in the middle of the road long enough type of fear.

      Fear of getting COVID-19 is a fear, but if it leads to healthy behavior, then it is the right type of fear.

      If it leads to unreasonable behavior, then it is the wrong type of fear.

    2. This is physiologically true. Fear weakens the immune response to viral infection and actually aggravates it, eventually leading to severe COVID-19.

      Good point Tuthisfrredomandlove.

  22. To add to my comment far above about my poor experience with the flu vaccines over the years, I did find mention at this link….
    https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/publications/vaccines-immunization/canadian-immunization-guide-statement-seasonal-influenza-vaccine-2019-2020.html#II4

    Apparently people taking certain medications will elicit a poor response from the vaccinations. Under the heading “Drug Interactions” at that page, they describe for example, statins, which many in the over 65 yrs crowd take. It can interfere substantially with the efficacy of the vaccine.

    1. Thanks Barb. Very interesting.

      I note though that there are no adverse events from the interaction and immunisation is still recommended for the over 65s…… presumably because a reduced benefit is still a benefit. See section III.1 where it comments

      ‘Hospitalization attributable to influenza in this age group is estimated at 125–228 per 100,000 healthy peopleFootnote38, and influenza-attributed mortality rates increase with increased age’

    2. Well just another proof that viral infections and cholesterol metabolism are highly intricated. However the relationship between the two is strangely ignored on this website which is supposed to be a nutrition site made by specialists on the subjects…

  23. Deb,

    The study about so many “young” people dying is another great example of how to twist a statistic to say what you want. As happy as I am to call a 64 year old a young person, it is better to look at the number of deaths for infants or people in there twenties separate from those in their 60s. The numbers are not even the same for those in their 40s compared to people in their 60s. More importantly, why did they need to lie to us? Why manipulate that number in the first place? If Covid was so bad, then why?

    As far as fear, I would be happy if some of the protesters had a healthy fear of traffic, especially since truck drivers are being told not to stop because of the truckers that get murdered when they do. That’s probably not going to go well for those without a healthy fear of traffic.

    I don’t think it is healthy to live in a fear based society even if people wash their hands more. Be scared of terrorists, be scared of being called islamaphobic if you are scared of terrorists, now be scared of shootings, be scared of guns, be scared of global warming, be scared of covid19, be scared of protesters, be scared of police, be scared of being called racist if you are scared of protesters or like having police, be scared of being called anti-vaxxer. What’s next, aliens? Or is the sky actually falling? No thanks. I would rather not listen to chicken little and the next thing to be scared of, especially when there is always a bill that gets passed that is usually stupid. Look at the 6666 bill for Covid19 and the 3 bills around defund the police. I think our ancestors lived in a scarier world with scarier diseases and they were not so crippled with fear.

    1. The allopathic ideology of the “battle against diseases” which is so particular to United-States…

      When this ideology is born, doctors were fighting diseases with highly toxic poisons and good quantities of whisky at the end of the XIXth century.

      Then, the American Medical Association (AMA), directed by corrupt and non real doctors, is born and has generalized this propaganda at the national then at the international level, promoting only AMA-approved medications with paid certificates, leading the way to pharmaceutic industries and big money corruption.

      If you want to listen to real health advocates, you should rather listen to this interesting quote:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b3NVZzz4Fo

    2. What the Health authorities don’t want the public to know is that you are only safe, not when all people are vaccinated, but when all people eat correct and healthy starch-based plant nutrition.

    3. What your article shows is that science has been the “best strategy” for people in power to avoid the need of reconsidering our nutrition as human beings.

      Science, in medecine, has been and is still today the main tool used by doctors in order to escape the question of correct nutrition for the population.

      From your article:

      ” to end the suffering that COVID-19 causes our best hope is a vaccine against the virus. ”

      This is only pure vaccine propaganda and also the idea that is supported by Dr Greger in this blog.

    4. What you do not see is that the more a vaccine is efficient to stop a particular virus, the more it comforts people in the idea that vaccines are a universal way of treating infections and the more it will create deaths at the next serious epidemy when no vaccine will be there.

      The hundreds of thousands of deaths from COVID-19 are the direct consequence of the success of past vaccines on particular infections and of the ideology promoting vaccines as an universal way of dealing with infections, while disregarding the primary and crucial role of nutrition in the human population.

        1. Do you want a randomized controlled trial about human species extinction by a deadly virus before considering changing public dietary recommendations ?

          It has already been done. This is the Neanderthal extinction.

          There are dozens of studies showing that viruses metabolism and that a cholesterol-rich environment increases cell host infection, and particularly studies on SARS-CoV. I already posted them many times in the comments, and I’m rather tired of having to quote them each time, when people simply do not want to listen to science, but only their science gurus.

  24. COVID-19 will never end, it will always stay in our memories :)… and perhaps also in our genome, as it is very naïve too think that a virus with such a large diffusion in the human population as SARS-COV-2 has not already made its way into the human genome like plenty of other exogenous viruses before it, that have become endogenous viruses in the history of humanity and integral part of our DNA.

  25. Why do we need a Covid vaccination to infect us with Covid so our immune system can react? Why not just get rid of the masks and 6 foot distancing and let our immune system indue herd immunity?? It has always worked in the past 200 years, so why not now? Why must our lives be made a misery while keeping our immune system from doing its job? WHY??

    1. You might perhaps be aware that a lot of people get very sick from the infection and die. This is because of a metabolic background that favors the disease, consecutively to the infection, coupled with very bad recommendations and treatments from doctors and public health advocates or medical institutions.

      As authorities do not want to promote good nutrition that both prevents the emergence of pandemics and curbs the ecosytemic propagation of viruses, they rely on vaccines to do the job. But do vaccines really save lives ? This strategy of fighting viral infections with vaccines can be very deadly, as between the beginning of the epidemy and the first campaign of vaccinations, many people are dying from the disease. Only, authorities are presenting this as a success of vaccines just by looking at the number of deaths before and after the campaign of vaccination. In reality, the deaths occuring before the campaign of vaccinations are a direct result of the strategy relying on vaccination only.

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