What to Do if You Come Down with COVID-19

What to Do if You Come Down with COVID-19
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Can pets like cats and dogs get infected and be infectious?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Ideally, once you became infected, you would be safely quarantined away from your family in a so-called “fever clinic,” a dedicated facility designed to assess, test, treat, and triage patients, so you wouldn’t put the people you live with at risk. Fever clinics were one of the strategies used to bring the outbreak in China under control by preventing clusters of family infections. In lieu of such innovations, the best choice is to try to recover at home, isolated as much as possible from your housemates. Preferably, you should avoid contact with both people and pets, and be cordoned off in a “sick room” with a separate bathroom, if possible.

Can pets get the disease? In rare cases, dogs have been found infected with the new coronavirus, but the virus replicates poorly in canines. They don’t seem to get sick, and they don’t appear to pass the virus along to others. This is consistent with what we saw in SARS, where a small number of pets tested positive, but they didn’t appear able to infect others.

The COVID-19 virus has been shown to reproduce efficiently in cats, however, who are then able to experimentally transmit the virus to other cats in separate cages, presumably via respiratory droplets, even though they may themselves not become sick. A survey of 102 cats in Wuhan province after the outbreak found evidence of infection in 15 of them––presumed, as with the pet dogs, to be cases of human-to-animal transmission. In the United States, the first confirmed case of animal infection was a sickened tiger at the Bronx Zoo, followed by a few pet cats. There is no evidence to date that pets have been a source of infection of COVID-19 for humans, but rather, we suspect, it’s the other way around.

To reduce the risk of spreading the disease to those you live with if you are sick, cover your nose and mouth with a tissue when you cough or sneeze, throw the used tissue in a lined trash can, and then immediately sanitize your hands. Don’t share personal household items, such as eating utensils, towels, or bedding. Wash your hands often. Routinely disinfect all high-touch objects, such as phones, doorknobs, and toilet surfaces in your sick room and bathroom yourself, and have someone else clean and disinfect the rest of the house, if possible. Harvard public health experts suggest running the exhaust fan in the bathroom. Opening the windows in the sick room to enhance ventilation may also help.  During the SARS outbreak, hospital wards with larger ventilation windows appeared to harbor significantly lower infection risk for healthcare workers. And finally, based on surrogate coronaviruses, using a humidifier if the air is dry may also cut down on the viral circulation.

Most people who contract COVID-19 spontaneously recover without the need for medical intervention. If you do come down with it, protect those around you, get rest, stay hydrated, and monitor your symptoms. If serious problems arise, such as difficulty breathing or persistent pain or pressure in the chest, seek medical attention—but, notify the 911 operator that you may have the virus, or if less serious, call your doctor or emergency room first for before heading in, since they may have special instructions for suspect cases in your area.

The CDC advises that once your symptoms start getting better, once you’ve been fever-free for three full days (off of fever-reducing medications), and it’s been at least a full week since your symptoms first started, then you can start relaxing your home isolation. The World Health Organization is more conservative, however, recommending self-quarantine for a full 14 days for anyone with symptoms, or anyone living with anyone with symptoms.

If you’re sick and you must be in the same room with someone else, you should wear a face mask. That’s what masks were originally designed for, so-called “source control,” rather than self-protection. They are meant to protect others from you, rather than you from others. Common cold coronaviruses (as well as flu and rhinoviruses) can be detected in exhaled breath, not just coughing and sneezing, and surgical masks can cut down on the amount of virus you exhale out into in the world. We have yet to know if this is true of COVID-19, but the head of the standing committee on Emerging Infectious Diseases at the National Academy of Sciences told the White House: “Currently available research supports the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 could be spread via bioaerosols generated directly by patients’ exhalation.”

This shouldn’t be surprising. After all, respiratory droplets are not just sneezed gobs of mucus. When your breath fogs when you’re outside on a really cold day, that’s an illustration of respiratory droplets. That plume of vapor coming out of your mouth is made up of tiny droplets of water straight from your lungs. On a warm day, you can imagine yourself breathing out that same cloud—you just can’t see it. Err on the side of caution, and assume the virus is in the breath.

If infected individuals are exhaling virus before they even know they have it, maybe everyone should be covering their face in public. The CDC initially resisted such a measure, a decision the director-general of the Chinese CDC referred to as a “big mistake.” The US CDC relented in April, recommending “wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain,” such as grocery stores or pharmacies. The 180-degree shift is probably best exemplified by the U.S. Surgeon General’s swing from tweeting “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” all caps exclamation point, to being featured in a video weeks later demonstrating how to improvise masks out of a bandana and rubber bands. The CDC has easy no-sew instructions at bit.ly/CDCDIY.

In addition to those who are sick and necessarily exposed to others, surgical masks are advised when disinfecting a residence that may have been exposed to the virus. You should also wear disposable gloves, open all of the windows while mopping the floor and cleaning all surfaces with a disinfectant solution, and wash all linens and the clothes you just wore cleaning with detergent. Make sure to hold soiled linens away from your body, and don’t shake them before they are washed. And, as always, take care to not touch your eyes, nose, and mouth when removing your mask, and carefully wash your hands afterwards. You can find all these instructions at https://bit.ly/COVIDcleaning.

“The suggestion that the public should not wear masks because healthcare workers need them more is [definitely] valid up to a point, but it is surely an argument for manufacturing more masks, not for denying them to populations who could potentially benefit from them. Until such masks are available in sufficient numbers [frequently washed cloth masks are recommended by the CDC].” I’ll talk about what are the best materials to use for them, as well the role of N95 respirators, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Motion graphics by AvoMedia

Image credit: wanderingstock via Adobe Stock Photos. Image has been modified.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

Ideally, once you became infected, you would be safely quarantined away from your family in a so-called “fever clinic,” a dedicated facility designed to assess, test, treat, and triage patients, so you wouldn’t put the people you live with at risk. Fever clinics were one of the strategies used to bring the outbreak in China under control by preventing clusters of family infections. In lieu of such innovations, the best choice is to try to recover at home, isolated as much as possible from your housemates. Preferably, you should avoid contact with both people and pets, and be cordoned off in a “sick room” with a separate bathroom, if possible.

Can pets get the disease? In rare cases, dogs have been found infected with the new coronavirus, but the virus replicates poorly in canines. They don’t seem to get sick, and they don’t appear to pass the virus along to others. This is consistent with what we saw in SARS, where a small number of pets tested positive, but they didn’t appear able to infect others.

The COVID-19 virus has been shown to reproduce efficiently in cats, however, who are then able to experimentally transmit the virus to other cats in separate cages, presumably via respiratory droplets, even though they may themselves not become sick. A survey of 102 cats in Wuhan province after the outbreak found evidence of infection in 15 of them––presumed, as with the pet dogs, to be cases of human-to-animal transmission. In the United States, the first confirmed case of animal infection was a sickened tiger at the Bronx Zoo, followed by a few pet cats. There is no evidence to date that pets have been a source of infection of COVID-19 for humans, but rather, we suspect, it’s the other way around.

To reduce the risk of spreading the disease to those you live with if you are sick, cover your nose and mouth with a tissue when you cough or sneeze, throw the used tissue in a lined trash can, and then immediately sanitize your hands. Don’t share personal household items, such as eating utensils, towels, or bedding. Wash your hands often. Routinely disinfect all high-touch objects, such as phones, doorknobs, and toilet surfaces in your sick room and bathroom yourself, and have someone else clean and disinfect the rest of the house, if possible. Harvard public health experts suggest running the exhaust fan in the bathroom. Opening the windows in the sick room to enhance ventilation may also help.  During the SARS outbreak, hospital wards with larger ventilation windows appeared to harbor significantly lower infection risk for healthcare workers. And finally, based on surrogate coronaviruses, using a humidifier if the air is dry may also cut down on the viral circulation.

Most people who contract COVID-19 spontaneously recover without the need for medical intervention. If you do come down with it, protect those around you, get rest, stay hydrated, and monitor your symptoms. If serious problems arise, such as difficulty breathing or persistent pain or pressure in the chest, seek medical attention—but, notify the 911 operator that you may have the virus, or if less serious, call your doctor or emergency room first for before heading in, since they may have special instructions for suspect cases in your area.

The CDC advises that once your symptoms start getting better, once you’ve been fever-free for three full days (off of fever-reducing medications), and it’s been at least a full week since your symptoms first started, then you can start relaxing your home isolation. The World Health Organization is more conservative, however, recommending self-quarantine for a full 14 days for anyone with symptoms, or anyone living with anyone with symptoms.

If you’re sick and you must be in the same room with someone else, you should wear a face mask. That’s what masks were originally designed for, so-called “source control,” rather than self-protection. They are meant to protect others from you, rather than you from others. Common cold coronaviruses (as well as flu and rhinoviruses) can be detected in exhaled breath, not just coughing and sneezing, and surgical masks can cut down on the amount of virus you exhale out into in the world. We have yet to know if this is true of COVID-19, but the head of the standing committee on Emerging Infectious Diseases at the National Academy of Sciences told the White House: “Currently available research supports the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 could be spread via bioaerosols generated directly by patients’ exhalation.”

This shouldn’t be surprising. After all, respiratory droplets are not just sneezed gobs of mucus. When your breath fogs when you’re outside on a really cold day, that’s an illustration of respiratory droplets. That plume of vapor coming out of your mouth is made up of tiny droplets of water straight from your lungs. On a warm day, you can imagine yourself breathing out that same cloud—you just can’t see it. Err on the side of caution, and assume the virus is in the breath.

If infected individuals are exhaling virus before they even know they have it, maybe everyone should be covering their face in public. The CDC initially resisted such a measure, a decision the director-general of the Chinese CDC referred to as a “big mistake.” The US CDC relented in April, recommending “wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain,” such as grocery stores or pharmacies. The 180-degree shift is probably best exemplified by the U.S. Surgeon General’s swing from tweeting “Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” all caps exclamation point, to being featured in a video weeks later demonstrating how to improvise masks out of a bandana and rubber bands. The CDC has easy no-sew instructions at bit.ly/CDCDIY.

In addition to those who are sick and necessarily exposed to others, surgical masks are advised when disinfecting a residence that may have been exposed to the virus. You should also wear disposable gloves, open all of the windows while mopping the floor and cleaning all surfaces with a disinfectant solution, and wash all linens and the clothes you just wore cleaning with detergent. Make sure to hold soiled linens away from your body, and don’t shake them before they are washed. And, as always, take care to not touch your eyes, nose, and mouth when removing your mask, and carefully wash your hands afterwards. You can find all these instructions at https://bit.ly/COVIDcleaning.

“The suggestion that the public should not wear masks because healthcare workers need them more is [definitely] valid up to a point, but it is surely an argument for manufacturing more masks, not for denying them to populations who could potentially benefit from them. Until such masks are available in sufficient numbers [frequently washed cloth masks are recommended by the CDC].” I’ll talk about what are the best materials to use for them, as well the role of N95 respirators, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Motion graphics by AvoMedia

Image credit: wanderingstock via Adobe Stock Photos. Image has been modified.

168 responses to “What to Do if You Come Down with COVID-19

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  1. This is a little off topic, but I heard that the Goya Food Company is having a big sale on their canned bean products. I think I’m going to buy a couple of cases, just in case we have a second wave and have food shortages.

          1. Hi Barb, Thanks for the link to the BBC article. I hadn’t seen that before. Sounds like Mr Unanue had kind words to say about Michelle Obama several years ago as well as Pres. Trump recently. Hard to understand why the boycott today?

            1. “I hadn’t seen that before. Sounds like Mr Unanue had kind words to say about Michelle Obama several years ago as well as Pres. Trump recently. Hard to understand why the boycott today?”

              Because no one is allowed to speak (or have) their own minds anymore. We all better get in line, basically.

    1. Might this have something to do with the call from wackos to boycott Goya because their CEO had the temerity to say something nice about our President? I think I will fill a shopping cart with Goya products, just in case he doesn’t win again. If the wackos win, we will have food shortages as a matter of public policy promoting voluntary starvation to reduce healthcare costs. Posthumous medals can then be distributed to family members in the same way that Middle Eastern mothers of children to whom bombs have been strapped receive rent-free apartments and public accolades following successful missions.

      1. “Our President”?! Talk for yourself, he ain’t my President.

        And oh…the real “wacko” here is ‘your’ Mr Dettol-in-chief President, which is enough humiliation for the US, I suppose. I wouldn’t trust or buy from anyone idolising this idiot.

        1. He’s the president of the United States. If you are a United States citizen, then whoever the president is in office, is the president of the country you are a citizen of. Facts. Let us not forget them. Not liking a president doesn’t make them not the president.

  2. Not a single downside to masks? Cotton homemade masks stop viruses ? I thought this site used science based evidence ?
    Maybe like compare countries that locked down to countries that didn’t .

      1. You mask idiots are so obvious. None of you even know what type of physician you would have had you an actual breathing problem. None of you know that actual asthmatics ARE PRESCRIBED TO WEAR N95 MASKS DURING BAD AIR DAYS BY THOSE SAME DOCTORS. Even people on oxygen are fine WEARING A MASK OVER THEIR NASAL CANNULA.

        Wearing a mask is not a political statement, it is a I.Q. test.

        1. There is no evidence for the 6 feet distance, thee is no scientific evidence for the use of wearing a mask.
          The people tested says nothing because they have no symptoms.
          The rate tells as a fact that it is the same as a flew season, the fear created by WHO or Rockenfeller organisation was wrong and put fear into people not by accident over the world.
          The scientific evidence of the claims is not proven.
          Corona is a Hoax, the homeless people are still fine that should say something to you..

          A Slave New World 2020 | A Call To Humanity | Agenda21 New World Order
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UcgB6lj_WU

          1. Tom,

            Or should I say Tom #2 because I know for sure you aren’t Tom #1.

            In a study running over 10,000 randomized models. There was strong evidence that staying at least a meter away from infected individuals provided significant protection. There was weaker evidence that even greater distancing was more effective.

            https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/do-face-masks-help-studies-leaning-towards-yes/

            The fact that people who aren’t dying have been questioned and only 6% have gotten over it and consider themselves healthy over a month later.

            Such a high number of people consider it debilitating for well over a month. There are thousands of people who are suffering over 100 days afterward with brain problems, heart problems, liver problems, kidney problems, pancreas problems to the point of developing Diabetes from COVID.

            Young people with mild symptoms are developing psychoses.

            Plus, people might be getting it a second time already.

        2. Reality bites,

          Though I laugh at your joke and take the concept of an “I.Q. test” at more than one level because all information has become one great big “I.Q. test” because even the CDC has gone back and forth and the WHO and CDC don’t agree on a lot of things.

          But, Julot is accurate. There are studies where people who do wear masks for hours do have a drop in their pulse ox values.

          The goal is to use them in high-risk settings but to not use them all day long.

          I have friends who live in a part of Maine where there have been 3 cases. If the essential workers there wear masks 8 hours per day, they will be more likely to have problems with hypoxia than get COVID-19.

          However, most of the states in the USA have an R Naught above 1 and many states have more hospitalizations now than they had in what we were calling “the peak” of COVID-19.

        3. Are you sure?

          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31992666/

          https://youtu.be/cVfNfB6dbzQ

          https://vimeo.com/424254660

          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18500410/?fbclid=IwAR07pASy2LOe3LzL6P0S8naRph9uUG-dlyg0xvn-ohfxHxhsqxZQx-ugXwg

          https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1187434.shtml

          https://www.oralhealthgroup.com/features/face-masks-dont-work-revealing-review/

          https://www.qeios.com/read/1SC5L4
          Cloth masks have been found to be particularly problematic. A British Medical Journal (BMJ) study published in April 2020 cautions against the use of cloth masks, citing “Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection.”

          https://www.qeios.com/read/1SC5L4
          The WHO affirms increased infection risk with cloth masks in its latest June 5, 2020 guidance. It based its guidance on an earlier BMJ study that found the penetration of particles to be 97% in the cloth mask group, with significantly higher rates of infection and influenza-like illness.

          A study on the CDC website that reviewed 10 different randomized clinical trials worldwide on highly infectious respiratory virus transmission found “no significant reduction” in “transmission with the use of face masks.”

          https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

          1. I am not sure if you are putting the wrong links next to your sentences.

            The first sentence that I went to, had a link that didn’t say what you are saying at all.

            Then, I went to the WHO to see what they said and they said:

            People who are sick and exhibiting symptoms of COVID-19
            Why? Anyone who is sick, with mild symptoms such as muscle aches, slight cough, sore throat or fatigue, should isolate at home and use a medical mask according to WHO’s recommendation on home care of patients with suspected COVID-19. Coughing, sneezing or talking can generate droplets that cause can spread the infection. These droplets can reach the face of others nearby and land on the surrounding environment. If an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks while wearing a medical mask, this can help to protect those nearby from infection. If a sick person needs to go to a health facility they should wear a medical mask.

            Anyone taking care of a person at home who is sick with COVID-19
            Why? Those caring for individuals who are sick with COVID-19 should wear a medical mask for protection. Again, close, frequent and prolonged contact with someone with COVID-19 puts caretakers at high risk. National decision makers may also choose to recommend medical mask use for certain individuals using a risk-based approach. This approach takes into consideration the purpose of the mask, risk of exposure and vulnerability of the wearer, the setting, the feasibility of use and the types of masks to be considered.

            Versus what you are saying their update said.

            https://www.qeios.com/read/1SC5L4
            The WHO affirms increased infection risk with cloth masks in its latest June 5, 2020 guidance. It based its guidance on an earlier BMJ study that found the penetration of particles to be 97% in the cloth mask group, with significantly higher rates of infection and influenza-like illness.

            The CDC did mention a study similar to what you were discussing, but it was comparing cloth masks versus N95’s in a healthcare setting in Vietnam. First, it was a healthcare setting and second they were comparing cloth masks to medical masks and even the control arm were wearing masks and they were mostly wearing medical masks because the control group were allowed to choose either type. It is not surprising that the cloth masks aren’t as good as medical masks in a hospital setting.

            https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/10/20-0948_article

            Yes, it matters which materials are used and how many layers are used. Most people are doing ones with 3 layers.

            Homemade t-shirt tests, “significantly reduced the number of microorganisms expelled by volunteers, although the surgical mask was 3 times more effective in blocking transmission than the homemade mask.”

            But it blocks the bigger particles and when researchers tested the inside of the cloth masks for virus, The inner layer of the cloth masks tested negative. There was virus on the outside of the masks so it matters how you take it off and they work better if they are kept clean.

            Florida researchers tested face masks and without anything the droplets go much further. With a single layer mask the droplets still go 3.5 feet. With a double layer mask the droplets only traveled 2.5 inches. Most experts have been recommending triple layer masks.

            They didn’t test that, but I was already pretty happy with the 2.5 inches.

      2. Next time you mask loons have a surgery be sure to tell your surgeon not to wear a mask FOR YOU. Would not want a surgeon doing hours long surgery with ‘hypoxia and hypercapnia’ as he/she infects your incision site by breathing. Enjoy sepsis.

        You also clearly DO NOT KNOW THE SYMPTOMS OF HYPOXIA OR HYPERCAPNIA. Hint, they are not subtle and would be obvious to everyone around you if they were real.

        1. according to Dr Gundry, a heart surgeon, wearing a mask during surgery has been shown to be LESS protective for the patient; check his youtube video.

          1. cmc,

            I don’t find any studies saying that it was less protective.

            There are small studies where it was protective where, for instance, after major abdominal surgery, 3 of 5 patients in the unmasked group developed wound infections whereas no infection was observed in the 4 patients of the masked group.

            But larger studies didn’t show effectiveness, but the reviews that I read said that there is a difference between saying that they didn’t statistically significantly prove effectiveness and saying that there was no effect at all.

            It wasn’t enough on its own. That is for sure.

    1. This site use no science based evidence anymore. I’m so disappointed from Mr. Greger, I can’t say how much… he follows stupid the mainstream, and babbles the same bull shite again and again. He has no idea, what’s gong on! In Germany we use to say: Schuster bleib bei deinen Leisten… Greger hat keine Ahnung von dem Umstand, dass es überhaupt keine Viren gibt, das nicht ein einziger Virus je nachgewiesen wurde, isoliert wurde, geschweige denn, dass es einen einzigen wissenschaftlichen Beweis gitb, dass Viren überhaupt krank machen. Er faselt den gleichen Bullshit wie alle dummen Ärzte, den sensationsgeilen Virologen, nach… genau wie es jeder psychisch kranke Politiker tut. In Deutschland traut sich ein Virologe namens Drosten nicht mehr in die Öffentlichkeit, weil er gesteinigt würde werden. … ich denke es ist aner Zeit diese Seite zu meiden!

      1. Mann, dummes Geschwafel. Gib deine Lizenz auf. Du bist ein Risiko für patienten.

        Ich bin einer der dummen Ärzte, die nichts wissen.

        1. Tara,

          I can’t tell whether you are talking about Heilpraktikers stupid ramblings. I think so since you typed it in German.

          But you saying that you are one of the stupid doctors who don’t know anything shows me that you could be one of the smart doctors who know that novel viruses may be something that we all need to learn a whole lot about.

      2. Dr Greger read the 800 studies a day and maybe the mainstream media also read a few of the studies or they might have spread some of the information of the CDC and people at the CDC read it.

        Lets translate your German words and evaluate YOU.

        Shoemaker stay with your groin … Greger has no idea of the fact that there are no viruses at all, that not a single virus has ever been isolated, let alone that there is a single scientific proof that viruses make you sick at all. He fakes the same bullshit as all stupid doctors, the sensational virologists, after … just like every mentally ill politician does. In Germany, a virologist named Drosten no longer dares to go public because he would be stoned. … I think it’s time to avoid this site!

        1. I’m sure this person has never seen an electron microscope. Viruses exist and you can see them with an electron microscope.

      3. Heilpraktiker_Ju

        How do you explain that people stopped dying nearly as much from AIDS when they developed antiretroviral meds that prevent the virus from replicating?

      1. Deb
        it might only show how inaccurate the stats are .
        when they started testing here you had to be in serious bad condition , bad enough to be in hospital .
        other wise you were told to self isolate and stay home for 2 weeks
        recently they tested 20000 in one day with 200 positives
        they are testing everyone now , even people with no symptoms at all
        so of course the numbers are going to be different

        1. mrpinkerton,

          Where are “they testing everyone now, even people with no symptoms at all” — other than at the White House?

          I’ve read reports and seen photos of long lines for tests, and that people can’t get them without symptoms, especially in western and southern states. Even testing healthy individuals is often limited to health care workers, those wishing to visit family members in nursing homes, etc. Perhaps visitors who wish to travel out-of-state.

          There simply aren’t enough tests for everybody. We are also lacking reagents, and other supplies necessary to conduct tests on everyone.

          1. mrpinkerton,

            PS to my message above:

            “Test results for the novel coronavirus are taking so long to come back that experts say the results across the United States are often proving useless in the campaign to control the deadly disease.

            Some testing sites are struggling to provide results in five to seven days. Others are taking even longer. Outbreaks across the Sun Belt have strained labs beyond capacity. That rising demand, in turn, has caused shortages of swabs, chemical reagents and equipment as far away as New York…

            Coronavirus tests must be covered by insurance under the Cares Act, and free tests are available at the federal, state and local level. As demand has surged, it has created backlogs and choke points at almost every step of the testing chain.

            “It’s not shortages of any one thing. It’s now spot shortages of all of them,” said Scott Becker, chief executive of the Association of Public Health Laboratories. “Clinical labs need more swabs, chemical reagents, viral transport media, test kits, machines to process the tests, staffing to run the machines…””

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/long-delays-in-getting-test-results-hobble-coronavirus-response/2020/07/12/d32f7fa8-c1fe-11ea-b4f6-cb39cd8940fb_story.html

            The entire article is eye-opening. But no surprise.

          2. Dr J
            That is the goal according to the priemer of Ontario ,who must not be good with math .There are 14.5 million people in ONT. at 20 thousand tests a day , it would take 2 years to test everyone .
            One of the institutions I work with tested all their employees on July 6th , it will be interesting to see when they get the results back . Now 8 days later nothing yet .

        2. Mr Pinkerton,

          I understand what you are saying and if you were talking the USA, I understand.

          But Australia brought their cases way down and kept them there.

          They are having a winter spike and are doing a strict lockdown for that.

          But they had more than flattened the curve when everyone started using masks.

          There are also Asian countries that use masks that had much better outcomes but I know they also eat healthier so I will not use them as proof of mask value.

          I will try to look up if they have a past pandemic where they didn’t wear masks and then started.

          Thank you for having a discussion and not blasting me for challenging the point.

          I appreciate that.

        1. It was in a video on a medical site a long time ago, so I might be remembering something wrong.

          I do know that there were studies discussed by the Kirby Institute, so maybe I have mentally combined things.

          https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/21/880832213/yes-wearing-masks-helps-heres-why

          The study found that in households where everyone was wearing a face mask indoors as a precaution before they knew anyone who lived there was sick, the risk of transmission was cut by 79%.

          “The more people that were wearing a mask, the more protective it was,” says MacIntyre, head of the biosecurity program at the Kirby Institute at the University of New South Wales in Australia. In other words, when everyone wore a mask, it protected the whole household…

          1. The Lancet comprehensive study aside from that said that there is only a 3% chance of getting it if you are wearing a mask versus 17% if you don’t wear one.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vT9BV8-0TA&t=406s

            Here is the demonstration of how far droplets travel with different style masks from Florida

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkB0k81oNiI

            Also, New England Journal of Medicine showed with mask and without mask at various regular talk versus yelling.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IrYyhufDwI

          2. The Kirby site said that masks prevent infections by 85%.

            I watched PBS news tonight and laughed because the CDC blamed Trump for making them look like they flip flopped on masks because they didn’t get enough air time explaining the new science.

            Nope. That is them flip flopping about an issue and not building a strong enough case about it.

      2. Hahaha, we never wore masks here in the first place! Where did you get that doozie Deb? Locally I’ve seen literally around a dozen people and they looked like Asians in the city centre here, possibly visitors. The lightweight flimsy ones are a waste of time, only benefit is if they stop you touching your mouth area.

  3. Pretty sure someone changed microphones or equalization. Your audio has gone thick/chunky. A little bit of tone adjustment is good, but that’s too much to my audio-sensitive ears. I’m having to play it louder for good intelligibility.

    Realize in full that you may have 12 more videos made with these same settings.

    Yes I did compare to your last recent C19 video, this one is “super over-bassy” by comparison. It’s huge difference. Something has clearly changed, I hope you get if fixed soon. This is just too muddy.

  4. I have a renewed sense of futility about this virus. I fear I’m slowly moving into the camp of those who say, “Let the virus just run its course.” If even your exhaled breath is poison, this virus might be unstoppable until it’s got everyone it’s going to get. All this micro-management might not be preventing anything… it might be doing little more than delaying imminent infections.

    I’ll keep the mask on in public, but I’m going to neutralize my fear response to the hostile invader.

    1. Εὔτυχος,

      Yesterday, I posted a doctor talking about how his patient had tested positive a second time – months apart. The first time, he had mild COVID-19 symptoms. He got through it and had 6 weeks of feeling really good. Then, he got it a second time and that time it was much worse and he ended up with multiple hospitalizations.

      You are having fatigue at having to do this process and hear about it but don’t let up.

      In the USA, people have received million dollar bills from hospitals and some have talked about refinancing their houses already.

      People have received over $2000 “hospital fees” for the “free test” and if they can pin any comorbidity on you, you could end up paying everything.

      That is reality in the USA.

      If you are on medicare, it is cheaper, but unless you have excellent secondary insurance, you will hate that you let up.

  5. ALL useful covid information can be found at anyone’s local county public health webpage. ALL of the above information can be found on those pages and in fact it is better information because it is tailored to your local area.

    There is a thing about ‘doctors’ try to act like experts in everything, they aren’t. Competent practicing physicians KNOW VERY WELL THE LIMITATIONS OF THEIR EDUCATION and do not try to act like a virologist or public health expert just because of a pandemic. They refer people to those type of specialized physicians for consultation and care, not try to take their place.

    I am losing competence in Dr Gregor fast.

    1. Reality bites,

      Now here I think you’ve missed the mark.

      Dr. Greger has had past epidemiological experience, which I highly doubt very many local doctors have. Also, he has the time and resources to review the most recent available research and evidence about these topics. That said, these videos are a bit out of date, and more evidence is accumulating daily. But I have found practicing physicians do NOT keep up-to-date, even in their fields. I’ve read that it takes from 10 or more years for medical practice to change in accordance with the newest accepted medical research and conclusions.

      And when have you ever had any doctor discuss nutrition with you? I haven’t had any, not before I was diagnosed with breast cancer, and not afterward, even though my family history of breast cancer (now 100%) was well known. When I would ask about it, my questions were waived away. So no, that’s one glaring area where most doctors, even specialists, are NOT aware of the limitations of their education. (In fact, my brother had the same experience after a heart attack at age 66; he took the Community Health Improvement Program (https://chiphealth.com/ ) health course, which includes classes in what to eat — a whole plant food diet — how to shop for it, and how to cook it, then asked his cardiologist about whole plant food eating — and the cardiologist completely dismissed his questions. Undeterred, he searched for and found a cardiologist who supports whole plant food diets for his patients.)

      1. Dr J.,

        Yes, Dr. Greger kept up with something like 800 studies a day or some crazy number like that.

        I am opposite of Reality bites in this and always will be.

        I have watched people like Dr. Popper and all these other people talking and I specifically wanted to hear what Dr. Greger had to say.

        The WHO and CDC don’t agree with each other half the time and I have been watching the information wars in the press and know that I can’t trust any of them fully and I already understand that Dr. Greger has a deep passion about this and worked as a public health person for a long time and if all of these sources are like filters, at least I already understand what Dr. Greger’s process is and that makes him a filter that I understand.

        I feel vexed when I listen to the news and when I listen to Dr. Popper and other people. But I do find it useful to know the information wars that are out there and I find it super-useful to have a doctor that I have already read a few of his pandemic books speaking.

        I strongly disagree that there are ANY experts on COVID-19 AT ALL. NONE. NONE. NONE.

        The WHO back peddles. The CDC changes their mind left and right. ALL based on the exact same studies that Dr. Greger read.

        All ANY doctor can POSSIBLY do is read all of the studies and THAT is what Dr. Greger did.

          1. If I remember correctly, Popper doesn’t have a doctorate from an accredited degree awarding institution. She bought one (or two) from some non-accredited mail order business. A bit like “Dr” Axe in that respect. And “Dr” Jonny Bowden”, “Dr” Andrew Saul, and “Dr” Bruce Fife for that matter.

            Why listen what such people claim?

            1. Why listen TO what such people claim?

              They are successful business people and marketers, sure, but my time is limited. I’d rather spend it wisely by listening only to credible sources like the WHO, CDC, other public health authorities, professional medical associations and leading universities.

              1. Tom,

                Aside from COVID-19, I have enjoyed listening to her about WFPB and she was involved in healing people through diet and I already went blank about which place that was.

                Plus, I have listened to her with the food guidelines committees, so she is someone who is taken seriously.

                Yes, she has a few mail-in doctorates. (It probably is computer doctorates nowadays.)

                I listen to people even if they have no doctorate.

                I listen to Dr. John Campbell every day and he is not an MD either but he is a nurse who taught nursing and I have found his channel useful.

                I guess I put their credentials as part of my mental consideration in how to evaluate their information.

                Meaning, I put MedCram’s detailed information above Dr. John Campbell’s information because MedCram is run by doctors who are working with COVID-19 in a state that has had a lot of cases. So I have “experience” as one level, “credentials” as another level. Both MedCram and Dr. John Campbell have a teaching emphasis and experience. But MedCram we have a doctor dealing first hand with COVID-19.

                I put Dr. Popper in the “experience” column and I do not like how she has disseminated information during this pandemic.

                Dr. Barnard, I have really enjoyed.

                I think I am learning about all of them and Dr. Popper will help me understand how people ended up at an opposing position.

                But she isn’t protective over the vulnerable at all that I see.

                1. Deb, Dr John Campbell is not an MD but he is a PhD so therefore he is referred to as Dr. Besides teaching, his career included writing textbooks and training manuals for nurses in training.

                  1. Yes, and I highly respect him and find his teachings quite reasonable and useful.

                    But there are a few times when he has covered topics that MedCram covered with more expertise and, when that has happened, I trust MedCram because they are medical doctors in COVID wards of hospitals.

                    1. I’ve never bothered watching Popper’s videos even though she is very popular in some ‘vegan’ circles. She has even instructed on some of Campbell’s/Cornell’s plant based nutrition certificate courses I understand. IMHO, it’s things like this though that contribute to mainstream science’s wariness of both ‘vegan’ and plant-based nutrition. We are often judged by the company we keep.

                      Campbell is a genuine PhD though. I’ve tried watching a number of his videos but was never able to finish because sooner or later he would say something that convinced me that he wasn’t fully across at least one of the issues he was commenting about.

      2. Dr. J.,

        As far as the “outdated” goes. It was much less outdated 2 pandemic webinars ago when he first was presenting this information and even 1 pandemic webinar ago. It took a long time to get to the site with the Flashback Fridays slowing things down on top of the having the videos made slowing the process down.

        Dr. Greger,

        Next pandemic, I think you could do weekly Q&A’s or weekly Webinars and post those. I think the video process slows things down.

        Not a complaint because I did watch both webinars and I get these videos here but the Webinars connect you with that audience.

        I think posting it this far after causes a disconnect with the audience who didn’t participate in the Webinar.

        1. I add to Dr. Greger that having the information during the Webinars helps you and that group bonds with you. Some of this group looks at it as “old news” and they lose emotional connection to you and place you in an “old school” category where you have always been decades “ahead of the curve.”

          It is partially because they have now drunk the KoolAid from all around the internet and already made their minds up.

          The persuasion class I took said that if you wait until people have made their minds up it becomes so hard to change their minds, particularly if they are wrong. They double down rather than change positions.

          There are a lot of studies on it.

          I feel like the webinars on this helped you and the videos on this aren’t helping you yet. I say yet because if we have the fall and winter spike, these could come back again. (If there is one, I will be watching them again.)

          But people are brain-neurotransmittered into constantly looking for new things and you have been a serious source of new information and you risk having some of the people put you in a different category.

          I will not be one of those people.

          Grateful even that you read all of the studies.

          Loved it in the webinar format.

          The videos come down here in the snarky atmosphere without your precious smiling-face answering the Q&A’s and I feel this audience down here is a totally different animal.

      3. Dr. J,
        I am sorry to hear there is 100% breast cancer in your family. I had a double mastectomy five years ago and during my recovery not one doctor was able to answer a single question about optimal nutrition. Last week, I went for my 5-year check and even that doctor, much younger than the others, admitted he knew NOTHING about nutrition. It’s stupefying. Chinese traditional medicine is still 2,000 years ahead of the West in this regard. India also.

  6. This site is becoming worthless. It’s supposed to be about nutrition facts.

    Now we’re getting posts on wearing masks and idiotic comments about how to get a good deal on chickpeas.

    If there’s no important research being done on the subject of nutrition, maybe this site is reaching end-of-life. If there is, I’d appreciate learning about it.

    1. Mark – If the ‘topic of today’ doesn’t interest you, let me suggest you simply skip the video and get on with your day. This Covid series doesn’t particularly capture me either. So I move on with items in my day that give me pleasure.
      Hope you can find something that brings you a little happiness in your day :-)
      Cheers!

    2. You’re free to go elsewhere, mark.

      I think this website is a treasure trove of fabulous health information, much of which I still would not be aware of, if not for NF.org. The site addresses mostly nutrition science, but I do like the divergent-topic series as well.

      My vote is for Dr.G. to keep on keepin’ on.

      1. Mark, this site is about health, and this info timely. If you are only interested in the nutrition videos, there are many available to choose from.

  7. Kind of good example about your breath on cold days, but kind of not. Because that cloud you see isn’t all “vapor” from your lungs, but the moisture that was already present in the atmosphere condensing from the *heat* of your breath.

    1. [moisture that was already present in the atmosphere condensing from the *heat* of your breath]

      I think it goes the other way, Me. Fog is atmospheric moisture condensing in cooler air.

      I think your breath is a lot of dry gas molecules and quite a bit of water vapor mixed in, since we’re all hydrated beings. So, my guess it that that cloud of visible moisture in your breath in cool weather is the moisture from your body condensing on the cool air. It’s still there in warm weather, you just don’t see it because it doesn’t reach dew point and condense.

      I’m not a meteorologist, so i defer to those experts. =]

      drc

    1. Hi, Deb,
      I agree with you about these things.
      I’m glad Greger is talking about COVID-19 and I’m skipping all the nutrition stuff for now. Knowing about nutrition might keep me alive twenty years down the road. Knowing about COVID-19 keeps me alive NOW.
      As far as different doctors saying different things goes, each person has to listen to those “different things” and make up their own mind.

      There are a couple of illogical things to me being said about COVID-19. For example, food is not a source of transmission and you are not to put your hands to your mouth. Why is it safe to eat a newly baked doughnut upon which someone has accidentally coughed some COVID-19 droplets into your mouth, but it is not safe to put your hand to your mouth?

      Another situation that does not seem logical to me is that we have to wash our hands for twenty seconds using soap and water. However, what about fresh produce upon which someone might have coughed or sneezed? For that we only need to scrub it in tap water and it presumably becomes safe. That doesn’t make sense to me.

      1. Liisa,

        Yes, and we cannot trust the public health experts on these things and I say that and point to Dr. Greger’s video where the CDC said for a long time NOT to wear masks. Now, they want you to wear them and say that masks can help decrease transmissibility by 65% if one person wears them and by 75% if everybody is wearing them.

        They had an agenda and didn’t declare that agenda. They declared things authoritatively as if it was 100% obvious that we don’t need to wear masks and now, we should wear them.

        Years ago, I went to a Boston Market and watched someone sneeze into their hand and then put two of their fingers into the inside of 2 take-out containers and I suddenly didn’t even want a soda. (I don’t drink soda now, but they didn’t wash their hands or put on gloves and I have friends who own restaurants who has watched his employee try to put cereal that he knocked onto the floor back into the container.

        And I have heard horror stories from one of the filthiest people that I have ever met who put his whole arm into a pot to stir sauce at one pizza place and I have a relative who will only eat vanilla ice cream and that comes from experience.

        Life experience tells me that people at work don’t wear their masks and don’t wash their hands.

        1. Once, while living in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, I watched the owner of a Greek restaurant I frequented several times a week, mix a vat of freshly-made tuna salad up to his elbows with his hairy arm, and squeegee it off with his other hand. How you do one thing is how you do everything. I still went there for their great food and friendliness, but I avoided the tunafish salad. Even so, I survived.
          I had a dear friend who’s little boy kept getting sick. When she finally took him to the pediatrician, she was told to plop the diapered boy on the dirt in the garden, and give him a spoon to play with, there in the dirt. The doctor said he suspected that the toddler was too clean. He developed the immunity of a titan and both he and his new little brother grew up to be successful, practicing physicians. They not only survived, they thrived.

          1. Chris,

            I understand that sanitizing isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

            But I also understand that there is a balance.

            There are studies where cleaning hands and disinfecting surfaces have had a statistically significant difference in things like school absenteeism.

            I am not someone who does sterilize things when there aren’t things like COVID-19 or the flu around, but someone trying to put their snot in my food is not acceptable to me and I am not going to evaluate risks during COVID-19 the same as other times.

            I stopped having the flu decades ago and I do believe that it is things like disinfecting door handles and using air purifiers and not putting up with the people around me who don’t do anything at all that caused me to not get sick year after year.

      2. I did attempt to talk to the scientist who declared that and he didn’t make any guarantee. He just said, “unlikely” and now the authoritative know-it-all presentation is going to back up on whether it could be airborne versus aerosol and we are still learning about this novel virus.

        They haven’t done thorough studies on things like does it depend on viral load?

        There are people who have been licking their hands and then trying to touch every piece of fruit possible and ones who have intentionally coughed on the produce.

        That, plus, refrigeration causing COVID-19 to live longer is what my question was to that man.

      3. DONT SKIP THE NUTRITION “STUFF”! SARS COV-2 got nothing on you when you’re armed with the Daily Dozen! We need a lot more Diet Distancing, Not Social Distancing.

        Listen to this podcast, A Tale of Two Pandemics with Dr. Mozaffarian, Dean of Nutrition at Tufts. He describes in detail a recently published study looking at the comorbidity associated with hospitalization and severe cases from NYC. Bottom line: If we were a nation of people who followed Dr. Greger’s diet recommendations, CV19 would not have been a thing here in good ole USA! Think about that. Let it sink in….Don’t skip the nutrition stuff, because as in life, so to with this site, how and what we choose to eat is essential knowledge for living a peaceful existence.

        https://www.npr.org/podcasts/512646501/innovation-hub

        Thanks to Dr. Greger and the team here at NutritionFact.org, my family and I don’t live in fear.

        1. Shawn P Pitcher, I tend to agree with your post. I have a friend who continually bugs me every day about all the people dying from the Wuhan Covid-19 Coronavirus. I asked him why he is not concerned about the many more deaths from our leading killers, heart disease and cancer? Of course, he doesn’t have an answer and moves on to another topic. I think it’s the media hype that is making people lose all perspective on what’s important and what’s not.

          I adopted a WFPB diet after discovering this NF.org website several years ago and feel (and test) much healthier than ever before. And from the knowledge I’ve accumulated from all the WFPB doctors I follow on the web, I think our best first line of defense from any virus or bacterial infection is a healthy immune system from eating the proper diet for humans.

        2. Hi, Pitcher, I am WFPB for nearly ten years now (ever since reading “The China Study.”) WFPB is “old hat” for me. However, COVID-19 avoidance is new and any knowledge regarding it is especially valued.

          1. Agreed,
            I will find time to watch the videos. I’ve heard that a group of scientist wrote a letter to the WHO arguing that airborne transmission is also in play. If that’s the case, then I’d would like to hear what Dr. Greger’s approach would be.

        3. Agreed. I do believe Fauci and the gang are missing a great opportunity to encourage healthier lifestyles to combat this virus and the next ones.

          Fauci runs every day and Trump plays some golf and (reportedly) eats a diet even a teenager would question BUT neither man is ill from Covid though I am sure they both have been around it since they are public figures. However, President Trump might just be lucky (or the Hydroxychloriquine does actually work) but for the average American and for our society as a whole, healthy eating, daily exercise, and good hygiene would go a long way to reducing our obesity (imagine the healthcare savings if 10lbs came off every overweight American) and even our addiction problems. Too bad that is not the emphasis.

          I, for one, would prefer to see Dr. Greger on the task force over Dr. Fauci any day. I believe I can trust Dr. Greger.

          Dianne

          1. Right on Diane,

            I like MIKE! But I’m pretty sure BIG Meat and Big Med do not. Imagine the hit to world GDP if we all followed Dr. Greger’s dietary advice? Then we would need a real CARES ACT. But I sure would love to see a WFPB diet as the new normal, but I’m having a hell of a time just getting my 3 teenagers to eat at least a couple servings of fruit and veggies /day. Honestly, it’s been hell since I’ve discovered Dr. Greger.

          2. Hi Diane,

            I would be very interested to learn about Dr. Fauci’s dietary patterns and lifestyle. But agreed what a missed opportunity. Probably not in his wheelhouse.

        4. Hi, Shawn P. Pitcher! Thanks for sharing this. While there is evidence to suggest that people who are obese and/or have pre-existing cardiometabolic conditions are more likely to be hospitalized with Covid-19, that does not mean that you are immune to it. We are thrilled that you are enjoying good health with the Daily Dozen, but you could still become infected with the virus, and potentially spread it to others, even if you experience few, if any, symptoms.

          1. Thanks Christine,
            I would add that there is now overwhelming evidence that preexisting metabolic disease is the number one reason people are dying with conditions associated with a positive SARS-CoV2 test result. Would love to see a population study looking at mortality among those eating a WFPB diet. I wonder how the elderly population of Seventh Day Adventist’s compare to there peers living on a S.A.D?

            In regards to the scenario where healthy, asymptomatic individuals could unknowingly have the virus and transmit it to others, this precisely the area where we need to see more studies. I think those countries that kept schools open throughout will be very helpful in this regard. I thought it was quite a dramatic situation where Dr. Van Kerkhove at the WHO was compelled to walk back her statements indicating that this situation did not represent a significant vector for transmission. But in the end, I desire to be helpful, I don’t want to inadvertently scare others, or otherwise dismiss their feelings and beliefs, so I follow the executive orders, and centralized authorities. But hey it’s easy for me, I can work from home. I only pray that the practice of science can survive this pandemic, because to my eyes, it’s not looking good.

          2. I would like you to post links to the studies supporting this assertion of asymptotic spread as a significant source of infection resulting in hospitalization. Ive only read anecdotal case studies based on small numbers of individuals who were contact traced.

  8. Thank you Dr. Gregor for your diligence and the diligence of your team. I know I can turn to this site to find fact-based information on health nutrition and now on the pandemic issues that are so polarized and confusing. I always recommend your site whenever discussing health and recently made rosemary tea from my bushes. It was delicious, and I remember doing it!!

    1. mary anna,

      I agree.

      The information all over the internet and television is so polarized and confusing.

      I appreciate Dr. Greger’s input very much.

  9. Although the breath in cold weather showing condensation of moisture from our breath is interesting. Try the exact same exhalation with any mask of your choosing. You will see the same condensation. This is what we call a non sequitur argument. Basically useless.

    We need to stick as close as possible to indisputable facts. If there is a word like “may” or “possible” in the statement, it is a red flag for a NON fact. My BS warning alarm goes off whenever I hear these words–being a fact based Engineer by training.

    1. codor,

      My husband was an engineer — and he thinks very differently than do scientists, which I was. (We are both retired now.) His concept of the world tend to be more “cast in stone,” whereas mine are more fluid.

      Science never has all the answers: if it did, it would stop. (OK, that’s a joke I copied. But it’s true). ALL scientific conclusions are stated as “may” or “possible.” That’s because we all know that new evidence down the road might result in the conclusions changing. And that happens all the time. Which is why we all need to keep an open mind, and be receptive to good credible, reproducible, new evidence. At the same time, we should always be skeptical, asking questions of everything we read. Is the source credible? What is the evidence for statements made? Does the evidence actually support the statements? Etc.

      I just finished “Our Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark,” by Carl Sagan; I highly recommend it. Especially the concept that scientists become equipped with baloney detectors. We can all become equipped with these baloney detectors. And one first step is to realize that science is not static, but ever changing, evolving as new information becomes available. Conclusions today are based on the best available evidence currently available — but they may change. So, statements made about them recognize this with the words “may” or “possible” or “could,” etc.

      BTW, rarely are “facts” indisputable. Well established, perhaps, but not indisputable. Useful, predictive, reliable, perfectly acceptable for certain activities. But not indisputable.

      1. Dr. J. – Thank you for your comments to Codor, fact-based-engineer,
        I would like to add to your thoughts with the explanation that, in science, we have hypotheses and theories, both terms which often get used incorrectly. A hypothesis is an idea, a possibility, a supposition whose expression is shared with other scientists as a possible means as an explanation for explaining our world using science. It is presented with the purpose that other scientists will consider the idea and then conduct experiments whose results will lead to better understanding of the hypothesis in question. Over time, if enough scientific evidence becomes apparent that the original hypothesis (or hypothesis tweaked a bit) is supported by the results of repeatable testing with repeatable results, the hypothesis can move into theory territory. A theory is generally regarded as a known entity and accepted by the scientific community without having to go back and question it. It is because of the rigor of the scientific community that a known fact emerges.
        Einstein’s theory of relativity, E=MC(squared) was, originally, a hypothesis. It is now considered to be a theory. Reliably repeatable and provable.
        I am always amazed at how many people attack science without understand how the scientific community operates.
        Yours in science –

      2. Dr J, That’s a good summary you gave of how science is essentially a hypothetical model of nature that is always subject to updating with new observations. But I’m surprised that more scientists don’t seem to use Bayes’ Theorem when updating their models with new observations.

        A case in point is that the WHO and CDC models of the Covid-19 virus spread are very simplistic, and therefore have failed to make accurate predictions from the start. A better model developed by Karl Friston does use Bayes Theorem and makes some very different predictions and is continually updated with new observations. (See summary below:)

        Bottom line: Up to 80% may not even be susceptible to Covid-19.

        Karl Friston uses advanced mathematical models much more sophisticated than the crude models used by WHO and most world governments.

        As the interviewer asked: How do the models you use differ from the conventional ones epidemiologists rely on to advise governments in this pandemic?
        Answer: Conventional models essentially fit curves to historical data and then extrapolate those curves into the future. They look at the surface of the phenomenon – the observable part, or data. Our approach, which borrows from physics and in particular the work of Richard Feynman, goes under the bonnet. It attempts to capture the mathematical structure of the phenomenon – in this case, the pandemic – and to understand the causes of what is observed. Since we don’t know all the causes, we have to infer them. But that inference, and implicit uncertainty, is built into the models. That’s why we call them generative models, because they contain everything you need to know to generate the data. As more data comes in, you adjust your beliefs about the causes, until your model simulates the data as accurately and as simply as possible. Standard models start to fall apart when you think about the underlying causes of the data. You need models that can allow for all possible states, and assess which ones matter for shaping the pandemic’s trajectory over time.

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/31/covid-19-expert-karl-friston-germany-may-have-more-immunological-dark-matter

        and, https://unherd.com/2020/06/karl-friston-up-to-80-not-even-susceptible-to-covid-19/

    2. Dear Codor, fact based engineer by training –

      I respectfully disagree with your conclusions that masks make no difference. Here is a link to a fact-based-engineer-by-training in fluid dynamics. He can show what a mask will and may not do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36_ZdhFvk4M There appears to be quite a difference with different masks and the ways in which the masks are used. Perhaps you might watch and add to the repertoire of your information. Not everything in life is black and white despite one’s engineering background.
      My BS meter points in your direction.
      Thank you.

    3. ‘If there is a word like “may” or “possible” in the statement, it is a red flag for a NON fact. My BS warning alarm goes off whenever I hear these words–being a fact based Engineer by training”

      That’s probably because engineers deal with a very limited number of variables, most of which can be adequately controlled for and mathematically represented. Also, the materials they work with are usually fabricated to common, tight specifications/standards. Medicine and nutrition have to deal with ;a much larger number of variables, a number of which probably haven’t even been identified yet. Humans are not constructed to very tight specifications either. To the extent that they meet common standards, we could say that the tolerances are extremely wide.

      Your comment suggests that you perhaps don’t really understand the differences between medicine/nutrition and engineering.

    1. Excellent concept, George.

      Particularly right now in the USA when so many people are testing positive.

      They don’t want you going to the hospital unless you are having serious enough symptoms and the pulse oximeter can tell that.

      However, drink some water, warm your hands, and if you get a low reading try your other fingers. THAT is what they do in the hospital.

      When they wanted to release my grandmother one of the times she was in, they couldn’t get a high enough pulse ox readings and they just kept switching fingers until they got a good reading.

      It can cost over $10,000 per day to be in the hospital in the USA so waiting until you really need one helps. Plus, there are people who stubbornly won’t go and the pulse ox can tell them when they really should be going.

      But, again, warm their hands and give them enough fluids first because dehydration and cold hands affect the results.

      The visiting nurses sent my grandmother to the ER for the stupid false pulse ox readings several times and the hospital gave her some fluids and put a dryer warmed blanket on her and the readings were normal before she even saw a doctor.

    2. I picked up a pulse oximeter model recommended by an RN early February, and they’re still available online. Initially I wanted one so that I and my health care providers could make more informed decisions about whether I or any relatives required hospitalization.

      ‘Silent” hypoxia (low O2 saturation without shortness of breath) in Covid-19 prevented many early patients from seeking care as the disease progressed through their organs. Patients would show up to emergency departments in well-advanced respiratory distress. Emerging hospital treatment protocols, emphasizing early doses of anticoagulants and steroid anti-inflammatories, are saving lives (RECOVERY-dexamethasone is the most effective trial to date), but as important, seem to this non-expert to have real potential to limit tissue damage from the hypercoagulopathy and cytokine storms. So choosing the right time to seek hospital treatment is important. And a pulse oximeter is a useful tool to bring to the decision.

      See.
      Luks and Swenson, 2020. Pulse oximetry for monitoring patients with COVID-19 at home: potential pitfalls and practical guidance. Annals of the American Thoracic Society, (ja).
      Jouffroy et al, 2020. Prehospital pulse oximetry: a red flag for early detection of silent hypoxemia in COVID-19 patients. Critical Care, 24(1), pp.1-2.

    1. Hi, J Griswell! Thanks for sharing this. I have passed along your request. Dr. Greger receives many such requests daily, and it may take some time to get to all of them. Because this is a new virus to humans, we are just beginning to learn about the full extent of its possible effects. While it may cause no more than a mild, flu-like illness in some people, it is becoming clear that wider-ranging, long-term effects may also result from infection. That is why it is so important to take precautions seriously for ourselves and for others.

  10. This week, the USA had the beginning of the increase in deaths that we have been wondering about.

    So far, it is 5 states with increases in deaths Arizona, California, Florida, Mississippi and Texas.

    But 20 states and Puerto Rico had record cases this week and 43 states have an R Naught above 1.

    Hospitalizations are up in much of the country and ICU beds have been maxed out in a few states where they are already above 100 percent of their ICU capacity and are already into their makeshift ICU’s.

    Also, there has been a spike in people who are dying at home.

    The people who die at home aren’t being added into the numbers. The CDC will sort that out but the spike is there right now in the USA.

      1. That 20% is already old because it was the CDC data from when the USA had 114,741 deaths and more young people are affected right now and, in places like Miami, a higher percentage of younger people are dying.

    1. As of today (7/13) more people died with coronavirus in New York City (population 8 million) than Texas (29 mil), Florida (21 mil), California (39 mil) and Georgia (11 mil) … combined. The nursing home deaths in NY being the reason.

      Also, the COVID death rate for folks 70 years old and younger stands at 0.4%.

  11. Update on neighbor’s son with virus: He is a local fire captain. Others in his family are infected but the report is they are getting better.

    1. Going back to Liisa’s comment from earlier.

      I hate the concept of “not a significant transmission source” and will say that people have to decide whether the cat going back and forth between their relative with COVID-19 and sitting on their lap snuggling against their nose might infect them.

      That is a very real situation and it is one that people are doing the math every single day.

      When my uncle was sick, he always wanted the dog in bed with him to keep him warm and then, the dog would want affection from everybody else.

      Is it a zero risk? If so, then we can just cuddle with the pets no matter what?

      1. Pets should be kept out of the ‘sick room’, for their own sake, not the patient’s with covid. So should all other family members for that matter. People should be washing hands after handling pets (and between species if more pets are kept in household). Handwashing is key whether it’s handling door knobs on a public building, doing a patient’s laundry, petting the hamster, or removing a mask.

        Instructions I have seen so far say to assign care of the pet to a healthy family member or friend. (for the pet’s sake).

  12. Deb,
    Even if my dog is a signifant transmission source, I feel that love conquers all things. Har. Actually, I have wondered what workers in animal shelters are thinking right about now.

  13. My personal doctor recommended that I take lyposomal vitamin C 3 times per day. Get 15 minutes of sunshine. Take turmeric, Eat blueberries. Eat garlic. Especially eat ginger. Eat Aurugula. Get a lot of rest. And visualize health. And lastly, she said she would prescribe hydroxychloriquinn. What does your personal doctor tell you to do if you come down with covid 19?

  14. I was wondering whether a HEPA air purifier would help the aerosols given off when we breathe. Supposedly HEPA filters can filter viruses.

    1. Daniel,

      They have done studies in dental clinics and the air purifier has to be in the right position – near enough to the person coughing and the airflow has to be aimed at it.

      Air conditioners are one of the big spreaders of COVID-19.

      I do have air purifiers in the office at work but I also have air conditioners.

      My system is cooling the room before the workers arrive so that the air conditioner is in pause mode during lunch.

      One of the workers eats on the opposite side of the room from the air conditioning and the air purifier is next to him. I am around the corner in my own room with my own air conditioner.

  15. So I did not hear anything about:All taken at the beginning of the disease-should help some according to studies.
    1. Bio-Quercetin from Life Extension zinc ionophore
    2. epigallocatechin gallate Life Extension zinc ionophore
    3. zinc opti zinc LE 50 mg
    4. D3 4000 IU
    5. NAC
    6. Asprin
    7. Copper 2 mg

  16. Unfortunately, some patients here are still testing positive after 2 months. Of course, we don’t know if they can still transmit the disease. But….

    1. Marilyn,

      Thank you for sharing that. I have been wondering a lot about that.

      The other day I was reading about the man who tested positive near the beginning, got through it with mild symptoms, then tested negative twice, then he was feeling fine for 6 weeks, then he tested positive with serious symptoms and multiple hospitalizations.

      I have also heard of ones who still test positive after months.

      This is such an odd virus.

      1. Marilyn,

        Here is the doctor speaking about that case.

        https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/getting-covid-19-twice-reinfection-antibody-herd-immunity

        The whole point is that he tested positive, had mild symptoms, got over those symptoms for 6 weeks, then got it bad enough to be hospitalized multiple times.

        I know that they showed that if people didn’t have serious symptoms, they might not get the antibodies and, unfortunately, that man wasn’t tested for antibodies after the first positive COVID-19 test.

        1. Marilyn,

          You are involved in one of the biggest mysteries of this disease.

          People are trying to figure out the long-haulers and the second-timers and whether the people are infectious and whether they have antibodies or didn’t get them the first time or didn’t keep the antibodies long.

          Those are all things I look up every day and you are doing it on the front lines and I am so interested.

          1. There are support groups for the long-haulers.

            A lot of people have had symptoms for 80+ days.

            There are thousands of people in the support groups saying that is what they are experiencing.

            1. Forbes posted results from a questionnaire with COVID-19 patients.

              The startling part was that even though 85% said that they had started off considering themselves healthy, one or more months after getting COVID-19, only 6% consider themselves healthy.

    2. Marilyn,

      The CDC and WHO and South Korea don’t believe that the people will still be infectious after that length of time.

      https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/08/viral-shedding-covid19-pcr-montreal-baby/

      That is the “official” answer.

      I go back to the people who seemed to get it back with worse symptoms and I don’t trust them about those cases.

      I do understand their concept that there could be viral debris.

      It doesn’t explain the man who ended up with multiple hospitalizations.

      Better safe than sorry.

    3. Is it possible that they are passing it around a family and got it back?

      Were they mild enough in symptoms the first time with a seeming pause?

      Or did it just keep going?

      One of my shortest relationships ever was because we kept giving pink eye back and forth and back and forth to each other and by the third round the relationship was doomed.

  17. Amazing how lengthy this discussion has become. I think it is a big time sink.

    All pro’s and con’s on a subject that I believe is very off-topic topic on a site that is called Nutritionfacts.org. I suggest to move it all to Pandemicfacts.org so that those who have an interest in nutrition are not bothered by all these speculations about a virus…

  18. Virus infection is, like most things, dose dependent. Is there not a risk assembling all the virus in the mask instead of sneezing coughing or breathing them away?
    By the way, there is no such thing as a Covid-19 virus. There is a SARS CoV2 virus that is supposed to cause an ill defined illness called Covid-19.
    There is no end to confusion about this pandemic.
    To correct one of them. Why not read this short note.
    https://www.scarab.se/sweden-was-right/

    1. You may be contributing to the confusion.

      The World Health Organization states:

      ‘Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) is an infectious disease caused by a newly discovered coronavirus.
      Most people infected with the COVID-19 virus……..’
      https://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus#tab=tab_1

      And according to the US CDC

      ‘Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a virus (more specifically, a coronavirus) identified as the cause of an outbreak of respiratory illness first detected in Wuhan, China.’
      https://www.cdc.gov/library/researchguides/2019NovelCoronavirus.html

      1. This is the mother of the confusion: “Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is a virus (more specifically, a coronavirus)” Both CDC and WHO mix up virus and disease, don’t you think?

        1. Using the same term for both the disease and the causative virus/bacteria is not unusual. It is in fact of fairly long standing eg tuberculosis, cholera etc

          I see where you coming from but nobody seems to think that using tuberculosis and cholera to refer to both the diseases and the bacteria is confusing. Or polio the disease and polio the virus. I don’t really see why covid-19 should be considered any different.

          1. You are right. But I was not thinking about the medical aspect but the political aspect. You have to agree that from the beginning there was a distinction between the the illness and the virus. Why was it changed?

  19. YR,
    From last thread: I’ve done my share of laundromats. For the last several decades I’ve had my own W / D. In 1985 I got my own washer and dryer. It was then that I etched across the sky, “There are only two kinds of people in this world: Those who have their own washer and dryer and those who don’t.”

    1. Dan,

      There are only two kinds of people in this world. Those who say they etch things across the sky and those who say “Is that guy nuts?”

    1. Dan,

      Excellent find. Thank you.

      I have passed Dr. Fair’s video on to two of my crew.

      Best regards,

      Vivamus

      (I haven’t got the local etiquette down, yet. We’ll see about names and nicknames if and as we go along)

    2. Dan, re your posted video of Dr Fair, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CWRVXxTdgYs
      they say he tested negative four times. Did you read the comments below? People are so angry calling it a hoax. I can understand the frustration in not having reliable testing, both antigen and antibody testing. Homeless people here are tested frequently in some circumstances and one person told me they have had neg, pos, neg test results.

  20. I think it might be time to turn off the commenting feature. Nutrition Facts comments used to be filled with additional information related to the topic and thoughtful discussion.

    It’s devolved into a tin hat convention. So sad. Glad Dr Gregor continues to review actual medical journals to help us understand.

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