The Benefits of Kale and Cabbage for Cholesterol

The Benefits of Kale and Cabbage for Cholesterol
4.89 (97.72%) 79 votes

Dinosaur kale and red cabbage are put to the test.

Discuss
Republish

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

LDL “bad” cholesterol is bad, but oxidized LDL may be worse. What role might our diet play? “Increased fruit and vegetable consumption has been reported to reduce the risk of developing [cardiovascular disease, heart attacks, and strokes].” Well, maybe it’s in part because of all the antioxidants in healthy plant foods preventing the oxidation of LDL cholesterol. And, indeed: “The LDL oxidation resistance was [found to be] greatest” among those eating more plant-based. So, that would be “in addition to the decreased blood pressure” and lower LDL overall in terms of “beneficial effect[s].” But, you don’t know if it’s cause and effect, until you put it to the test. Put people on a whole-food plant-based diet for just three weeks, and rates and extent of LDL oxidation drop.

“The effects of kale” on LDL oxidation were put to the test. Kale is a best-of-all-worlds food, low in calories and packed to the hilt with nutrition—vitamins, minerals, anti-inflammatory compounds, antioxidant phytonutrients—you name it. No surprise, then, given its “high antioxidant capacity… kale showed a protective effect on the oxidation of [LDL] even at low concentrations.” But, this was in vitro, in a test tube. Kale was also put to the test in mice. But, what about people?

I did a video on this study, on how “kale juice improves coronary artery disease risk factors in men with high cholesterol].” Extraordinary results: a 20% drop in LDL among the nonsmokers. But, they were drinking the equivalent of about 10 cups of kale a day. Still, the fact that they were able to see such an improvement, even though nearly all the fiber was removed, because it was just juice, shows there does seem to be something special in the plant. But, can you get the benefit just eating the stuff? Let’s find out.

“The effect of black and red cabbage on…oxidized [LDL].” And by black cabbage, they mean lacinato kale, also known as dinosaur or Tuscan kale. They had people eat a bag of frozen kale and cabbage a day for just two weeks—which is great because you can just keep it in the freezer, pre-washed, pre-chopped, and just throw it in any meal you are making—and got “significant reductions” of total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and even blood sugar levels. And, the antioxidant capacity of their blood went up. So, no surprise, they demonstrated “a significant decrease” in oxidized LDL, too.

Would it have been better to take that red cabbage and ferment it into sauerkraut? Red or purple cabbage is one of my favorite vegetables—packed with antioxidants, yet dirt cheap, and seems to last forever in the fridge. It’s pretty, and juicy, and tasty. I try to slice shreds off into any meal I’m making. But, when you ferment it, not only do you add way too much salt, but you end up wiping out some of the nutrition. Here’s the big spike in antioxidant capacity of your bloodstream in the hours after eating fresh red cabbage—cut down by almost 30% if you ate the same amount in fermented form. Does cabbage have to be raw, though?

No. Some “[c]ooking techniques may improve the…antioxidant activity in kale and red cabbage.” “The effects of the cooking process can be positive, since cooking softens the vegetable tissues,” helping your body extract the active compounds. “However, cooking can also be negative, because heat treatment can degrade [some of the] compounds. They looked at a variety of different cooking methods, and concluded “steaming [may] be considered to be the best home cooking technique to prepare kale and red cabbage.” But with foods that healthy, the truly best way to prepare them is whatever way will get you to eat the most of them.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: anandasandra via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

LDL “bad” cholesterol is bad, but oxidized LDL may be worse. What role might our diet play? “Increased fruit and vegetable consumption has been reported to reduce the risk of developing [cardiovascular disease, heart attacks, and strokes].” Well, maybe it’s in part because of all the antioxidants in healthy plant foods preventing the oxidation of LDL cholesterol. And, indeed: “The LDL oxidation resistance was [found to be] greatest” among those eating more plant-based. So, that would be “in addition to the decreased blood pressure” and lower LDL overall in terms of “beneficial effect[s].” But, you don’t know if it’s cause and effect, until you put it to the test. Put people on a whole-food plant-based diet for just three weeks, and rates and extent of LDL oxidation drop.

“The effects of kale” on LDL oxidation were put to the test. Kale is a best-of-all-worlds food, low in calories and packed to the hilt with nutrition—vitamins, minerals, anti-inflammatory compounds, antioxidant phytonutrients—you name it. No surprise, then, given its “high antioxidant capacity… kale showed a protective effect on the oxidation of [LDL] even at low concentrations.” But, this was in vitro, in a test tube. Kale was also put to the test in mice. But, what about people?

I did a video on this study, on how “kale juice improves coronary artery disease risk factors in men with high cholesterol].” Extraordinary results: a 20% drop in LDL among the nonsmokers. But, they were drinking the equivalent of about 10 cups of kale a day. Still, the fact that they were able to see such an improvement, even though nearly all the fiber was removed, because it was just juice, shows there does seem to be something special in the plant. But, can you get the benefit just eating the stuff? Let’s find out.

“The effect of black and red cabbage on…oxidized [LDL].” And by black cabbage, they mean lacinato kale, also known as dinosaur or Tuscan kale. They had people eat a bag of frozen kale and cabbage a day for just two weeks—which is great because you can just keep it in the freezer, pre-washed, pre-chopped, and just throw it in any meal you are making—and got “significant reductions” of total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and even blood sugar levels. And, the antioxidant capacity of their blood went up. So, no surprise, they demonstrated “a significant decrease” in oxidized LDL, too.

Would it have been better to take that red cabbage and ferment it into sauerkraut? Red or purple cabbage is one of my favorite vegetables—packed with antioxidants, yet dirt cheap, and seems to last forever in the fridge. It’s pretty, and juicy, and tasty. I try to slice shreds off into any meal I’m making. But, when you ferment it, not only do you add way too much salt, but you end up wiping out some of the nutrition. Here’s the big spike in antioxidant capacity of your bloodstream in the hours after eating fresh red cabbage—cut down by almost 30% if you ate the same amount in fermented form. Does cabbage have to be raw, though?

No. Some “[c]ooking techniques may improve the…antioxidant activity in kale and red cabbage.” “The effects of the cooking process can be positive, since cooking softens the vegetable tissues,” helping your body extract the active compounds. “However, cooking can also be negative, because heat treatment can degrade [some of the] compounds. They looked at a variety of different cooking methods, and concluded “steaming [may] be considered to be the best home cooking technique to prepare kale and red cabbage.” But with foods that healthy, the truly best way to prepare them is whatever way will get you to eat the most of them.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: anandasandra via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video.

Doctor's Note

I love it when the videos don’t just convey interesting, groundbreaking science, but practical advice to change our day-to-day eating habits. I’ve got some more coming up like this—stay tuned!

Here’s some to chew on in the meanwhile:

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

142 responses to “The Benefits of Kale and Cabbage for Cholesterol

Comment Etiquette

On NutritionFacts.org, you'll find a vibrant community of nutrition enthusiasts, health professionals, and many knowledgeable users seeking to discover the healthiest diet to eat for themselves and their families. As always, our goal is to foster conversations that are insightful, engaging, and most of all, helpful – from the nutrition beginners to the experts in our community.

To do this we need your help, so here are some basic guidelines to get you started.

The Short List

To help maintain and foster a welcoming atmosphere in our comments, please refrain from rude comments, name-calling, and responding to posts that break the rules (see our full Community Guidelines for more details). We will remove any posts in violation of our rules when we see it, which will, unfortunately, include any nicer comments that may have been made in response.

Be respectful and help out our staff and volunteer health supporters by actively not replying to comments that are breaking the rules. Instead, please flag or report them by submitting a ticket to our help desk. NutritionFacts.org is made up of an incredible staff and many dedicated volunteers that work hard to ensure that the comments section runs smoothly and we spend a great deal of time reading comments from our community members.

Have a correction or suggestion for video or blog? Please contact us to let us know. Submitting a correction this way will result in a quicker fix than commenting on a thread with a suggestion or correction.

View the Full Community Guidelines

    1. I wasn’t doubting the finding. I didn’t hear Greger talking about a control group, nor could I find one reading the original source. I don’t see how one could conduct a “blinded” study while testing out whole vegetables.




      3
    2. Hi Daniel,

      I am a volunteer for Dr. Greger. Thanks so much for your question.

      The study looking at the cholesterol-lowering effects of kale and purple cabbage did not have a control group. Having a control group would have strengthened the scientific “proof” in this study, but nonetheless, we have no reason at this point to believe that kale and/or purple cabbage doesn’t lower cholesterol. We have at least a couple studies showing that it does.

      I hope this helps answer your question!




      2
  1. I’m a little puzzled: in the kale juice study they used the equivalent of 167g of kale per day, and if I got the tone right, the video implied that may be too much to consume in whole-food form. Well, for one I use a whole bunch of ~200g of kale in my smoothie almost every day, so it’s certainly doable. It’s only about 2 FDA servings (one is 85g), and when cooked one cup is ~130g.

    But then, in the whole cabbage+kale study, they used 300g per day. 80 percent more.

    So how is that surprising that they got an impressive drop in TC and LDL with a greater amount plus all the fiber? I would be surprised if the effect weren’t even bigger than in the juice study.




    13
  2. A lot of grocery stores now carry pre-packaged fresh “baby” kale leaves. The leaves are small and seem to be a lighter green. I’m wondering, does the baby kale have the same nutrition profile as a full grown kale leaf? Does anyone happen to know and can provide a reference?




    11
    1. Good question, Hal. I’ve been buying Costco’s big bag they call power greens. It’s organic baby leaves of kale, chard and spinach. It’s oh, so handy, but I wonder, too, if it’s as valuable as mature leaves. Since sprouts are so rich in nutrients, maybe baby leaves have more than mature ones, but then again, maybe not.




      7
      1. Hal and Rebecca, I was wondering the same thing. Microgreens can sometimes be more nutritional value and I use both, even in my same wrap, because I like the crunch of the mature Kale, and I am intrigued by the Microgreens.

        My wraps have a lot of redundancy.

        Kale, Red Cabbage, Shredded Broccoli & Carrots, Broccoli Sprouts, Microgreens/Supergreens, Tri-colored Peppers, White Button Mushrooms, Cherry Tomatoes, Artichoke Hearts, Pomegranate Seeds, Salsa, Guacamole, Nutritional Yeast, a little bit of Onions, Chick peas and Edamame and I was adding in seeds.

        Edamame is on the hot seat, because I can’t find organic.

        White Button Mushrooms are something I ponder, because of the teachings to not eat it raw, but, I read someone say that the bad thing in it lessens if they are refrigerated, which mine are. Does that make them safe enough? They add such a good texture that I don’t want to get rid of them.




        1
        1. Deb,
          Dr. Fuhrman advises cooking mushrooms because of a potential toxin in raw mushrooms. I have been slicing my mushrooms, seasoning them and then popping them in the microwave for 3 minutes or so. Hope that qualifies as ‘cooking’ them as they do seem cooked.




          2
          1. Hey there B’Healthy- Dr. Greger did a video on the potential toxin in mushrooms. If I recall correctly he said it was readily broken down by heat and 30 seconds in the microwave would do it. I’m sure you could find the video with a little digging




            1
        2. I still wouldn’t eat them raw. The agaritine needs to be cooked out, and due to its chitin fibers, some of the nutrition won’t be bioavailable until it is cooked. Many highly educated mycologists I know eat all edible mushrooms except the one in the grocery stores (agaricus bisphorus).




          0
  3. I was taught that the “traditional” methods of processing food –fermentation, yeasting, soaking (nuts) and roasting– boosted the nutritional value of the foods. The findings in this report leaves me unsure to what degree and in which circumstances this may be untrue. Kimchee actually degrades (at least some) nutritional value?

    Any insights?




    5
    1. Steve,

      I am not any type of expert and I invite them to disagree with my sentences, if I mess up.

      Soy is going to be my contrast, where the internet doctors say there is an improved nutrition by fermenting or sprouting.
      Contrasting that to the Kale, where Kale isn’t controversial to begin with. Nobody talks about “antinutrients” in the same sentence as Kale.

      Soy, they say that fermenting or sprouting decreases the antinutrients and one of those antinutrients was inhibiting the enzyme which is needed to digest proteins and without digesting proteins properly, they say it increases homocysteine. It also affects the phytate levels, which is a confusing topic, which doctors disagree with each other about, and many doctors will say that getting rid of the phytates, makes soy safer, but Dr. Greger has a video on phytates, which I will let you watch and decide for yourself. (Cook your dried beans is 100% wisdom. Ferment or sprout your soy? Depends on who you listen to.).

      Fermenting soy increases K2, which is a genuine increase, and if I am understanding why K2 increases properly, that a bacteria increases K2 in response to the fermentation process, then, if K2 is your goal, fermentation increases it.

      If antioxidants is your goal, steaming your Kale is the way to go.

      That is my mental math.

      Experts, feel free to correct me.




      2
    2. I’m wondering too if a simple pickling process reduces nutrients in the same way fermentation does? I make Salvadoran curtido using purple cabbage, and use it as a condiment with tortillas, beans, and rice. It’s so simple – just thinly sliced cabbage with some crated carrots and red onion, some oregano and cumin, a bit of red pepper flakes. Fill a glass jar with it, cover with 50/50 mixture of apple cider vinegar & water, and store in the frig. It’s such a gorgeous purple color, and I was thinking it’s such a healthy way to get cabbage into my diet!




      2
      1. Hi Lynn,

        I am a volunteer for Dr. Greger. Thank you so much for your question.

        By adding apple cider vinegar, you will cause a slight fermentation process of the red cabbage, which may reduce the nutrition a bit. However, as Dr. Greger always recommends, the best way to eat a highly nutritious food like red cabbage is any way that will get you to eat the most of it. If this is the way for you, absolutely go for it.

        I hope this helps!




        1
    3. Hi, Steve Billig. One cannot lump all of the traditional methods of preparing food into one pile and make an accurate statement about all of them. Sprouting is a way to increase the nutritional value of some foods. For example, broccoli sprouts have a higher sulforaphane content than broccoli. Health claims about fermented vegetables may or may not be evidence-based. We present you with evidence, and you are welcome to draw your own conclusions. Turning vegetables into sauerkraut or kimchi adds a lot of salt, and it appears that it may decrease the nutritional value, or even increase cancer risk. This method of preparation was developed before refrigeration, freezing and canning were available, to preserve food for the winter months, when it could not be grown in some climates. It is probably better than not eating vegetables at all. Certain fermentation methods may enhance the nutritional value of some foods, such as the formation of vitamin K2 by fermenting soybeans to make natto. Each method and resulting food product must be evaluated on its own merits. I hope that helps!




      0
  4. raw kale in excess can impact the thyroid negatively in certain individuals, so I consume no more than a couple of times per week just to be safe.




    0
    1. According to Dr Fuhrman this is an unfounded fear even for those with hypothyroidism, as long as one gets enough iodine. See his online article “Do cruciferous vegetables or soybeans harm the thyroid”.




      7
      1. When I was an unhealthy omnivore, I was slightly hypothyroid and worried about consuming soy and cabbage. Now that I have been following Dr. Fuhrman’s advice as a near vegan and then vegan for years, I have a normal thyroid and eat lots of kale and cabbage daily, and soy (as organic tofu and tempeh) regularly. It might be individual, or it might be the food environment in which kale is consumed.




        9
        1. Anne, your testimony is encouraging.

          I had symptoms of hypothyroidism and symptoms of cancer and symptoms of diabetes and symptoms of Alzheimer’s a year ago and it was so frustrating to figure out whether to eat kale and cabbage and broccoli or not.

          I did end up eating them, because fear that I might have cancer was the most urgent on the list, and the symptoms of cancer went away, and things like the horizontal nail ridges, which pointed to potential diabetes, went away, but the thyroid, didn’t seem to be healing. That didn’t happen until after I gave up dairy in January. After a year of eating all the vegetables and fruits, I finally started losing weight, just getting rid of the saturated fats and I stopped losing hair and I don’t have symptoms of any of the things I used to.

          I was so perplexed by all this nutrition stuff that I went off bread, and pasta and rice and potatoes and junk food and everything I could think of, but it didn’t improve until I got off cheese and it still didn’t budge until I switched from regular milk to soy milk.




          5
    2. I found a handful of raw kale each day in a smoothy irritated my vulva, this irritation went away two weeks after stopping kale. My husband has also had some problem with soreness of his tongue which again is clearing up. See from the web we are not the only ones experiencing these problems.




      0
  5. Please do a video on cruciferous vegetables increasing testosterone by decreasing estrogen. Plant foods that lower testosterone and those that raise levels?




    4
  6. I’m a big fan of blanching greens. I cook everything else and then just throw in a big wad of Power Greens and stir just before taking the pot off the stove. The greens never boil, they just wilt and soften up, and a minimum of nutrients are lost.




    2
    1. I use raw greens in my morning smoothie using the “cleaner” greens (from the CSA and my garden). I use the same technique you do for dinner, using the greens I think would be safer if pasteurized (from the grocery store). If I’m using a big pot of soup for the week, I drop greens in my serving before reheating. It’s so easy!




      2
    2. That’s what I do, plant_this_thought. I love wilted greens on just about any vegetable / bean / lentil / grain dish!




      0
  7. I have been vegetarian/vegan for 40+ years and have genetically high cholesterol. By eating such a healthy diet, does this mean my high cholesterol doesn’t oxidize, so doesn’t affect my health?




    2
    1. Hi Wendy,

      I am a volunteer for Dr. Greger. Thank you so much for your question.

      The good news is that you likely do have reduced levels of oxidized LDL. It doesn’t mean that you have none (as everybody has some), but you could very well have lower levels, especially for somebody that has high cholesterol. To know for sure though, you would have to get tested to see what your oxidized LDL level is at. Unfortunately, though, having high LDL cholesterol, regardless of how much is oxidized appears to increase our risk of heart disease. This is why doing everything you possibly can to lower your already heightened risk is so important. And by being vegetarian or vegan for 40 years is a tremendous advantage, assuming that most of your food intake is from whole, plant foods.

      I hope this helps answer your question, and best of luck, Wendy!




      1
  8. LDL is not all bad, sLDL is bad – when you test your cholesterol ask for have a clear stats on Small Dense LDL(sLDL), this is the real bad one along crystallized one x-LDL on the arteries. sLDL is a subtype of LDL cholesterol. There are two main types of LDL which vary in size through genetic determination and dietary lipid intake, ranging from small and dense to large and buoyant LDL. All LDLs transport triglycerides and cholesterol to the tissues but their atherogenesis varies according to size. Smaller particles such as sLDL more readily permeate the inner arterial wall and are more susceptible to oxidation.




    1
  9. How do we know this wasn’t simply a case of the good crowding out the bad? If you eat 1 bag of cabbage a day, as the people in the experiment reportedly did, that should also mean you’re eating *less* of something else. There’s only so much room in the stomach!

    Maybe some of what was displaced was fatty…we don’t know based on this account…but if so, then that — and not the purported health benes of kale — could account for the change. Thoughts?




    2
  10. Hello NF Community!

    I have opined here before and shared some High Fat Low Carbs personal statistics. Once again I’m going to give you some of my personal information; take it or leave it, but many have wondered. After approximately twenty-four months of being high fat low carb, showing amazing blood work and BP numbers a, I have taken the CAC (cardiac artery calcification) exam. At forty-seven (47) years old and a couple of years on super high fat diet (with a goodly amount of vegetables) my calcium artery score was a BIG FAT ZERO! NO artery plaque. Note: My LCHF diet was clean; mostly vegetable protein, coconut oils, olive oil, and GF butter. Stop wondering IF and go take the CAC exam to see if you are building artery plaque. A picture is worth a thousand words! Light and Love…..




    3
    1. Congratulations Chris.

      I tried taking coconut oil when I was having brain issies, but I threw up every time.

      Fat is such a complicated topic, and can’t be dealt with in generalities.

      For instance I have friends who have gained so much weight using fat that way and Dr McDougall said the fats you eat are the fats you wear. Dr Lisle said that most people do not have sensitive enough stretch receptors to have their bodies recognize the extra calories in fats, so it is one of the things which you can eat the extra 300 calories per day withoutt having your body turn off your hunger signals.

      A very few people have stretch receptors so sensitive that they can catch that you just ate the 300 extra calories.

      I actually have done better withy brain and weight getting my fats from nuts and seeds and avocados.

      I have seen it in a vegan weight loss web site, people who don’t cut back on oils don’t lose weight.

      Yes, they also have to cut back on refined carbs and processed foods, but fats have more calories and don’t shut off your hunger hormones.

      I am just doing one factor, too, because you didn’t talk about cheese or animal products and other reasons to be careful with which oils and you didn’t say how high your fats are.

      I celebrate your good news, but newbies are going to make unwise decisions based on your labs without understanding the bigger picture

      And the fact that nutritionists are more agreed than ever is something the average lay person never finds out, because people debate incompletely on the Internet.

      What is your high fat replacing and that is what would need to be examined to see wisdom.

      I hated oils, but love nuts and seeds and my brain is healing and I am losing weight and that is the balance.




      4
      1. Hello Deb,

        Sorry, my intent from the post was to help people stop worrying about their HDL and LDL numbers. The CAC exam is non-invasive and is now covered by most insurance (I think walk-ins with no insurance are a couple hundred dollars?) The procedure is quick, easy, and painless. One walks away from the simple exam knowing what their life style and daily choices are doing to their coronary arteries. Like I said, “a picture is worth a thousand words.”




        1
        1. Thanks Chris,

          I already am not worried about HDL and LDL, because I am not eating animal products or oils or refined carbs or sugars.

          With coconut oil, on the podcast, Dr. Greger said that in the study with it, people got increased insulin resistance.

          I don’t want the calories or insulin resistance, but mostly, I threw it up and it wrecked the taste of my smoothies and I tried mixing it with powdered peanut butter and threw that up and tried it in cooking and it gave my veggies a coconut flavor. I always liked the flavor of coconut and did tend to add coconut to my smoothies, so I thought I would be okay with it, but what happened by the end was that I no longer like the flavor of coconut. I get a little queasy even writing this response.




          2
        2. Here in the UK a coronary artery scan is nearly six hundred pounds sterling. I paid for one over two years ago and came out as high risk. Have been on WFPB way of eating since then. Would like another scan to see how my arteries are now but cost puts me off plus I cannot do more than I am doing now, diet, exercise, vitamins etc.




          1
    2. OK..please show some published study specific data to support this.

      I do not need glasses despite being pretty old(just took my MVD eye test) and have been vegan since 1990 basically. Should I then state my good eyes are the reason of my diet?

      I suppose it is some other cause but could state this as result if so inclined.
      But would it be?
      Some peoples gene makeup does not support the ability to generate plaque in arteries. In other fashions these peoples may not be very healthy but they never ever have heart disease………




      3
      1. Hello Ron,

        I couldn’t agree more! Who cares what ones cholesterol numbers are if your arteries are clear! My post was to HELP people to stop worrying about their cholesterol and ultimately CHD. Rather than choke down 200g of Kale per day to lower a number that may or may not be helping with the real issue, why not just go to the doctor, take a picture and see? Before I go, I want to say,”I love New Mexico!” In fact Albuquerque VA is where I did my CAC exam. Like I said,”This is now a covered procedure.”




        1
        1. Well agree with that Chris …‘My post was to HELP people to stop worrying about their cholesterol and ultimately CHD.
          Makes sense. I think a lot here already have a history but for those without.

          Albuquerque has been strictly downhill with some of the highest crime rates in the nation. For some odd reason murders seems to be dramatically increasing this year.

          New Mayor things may change but it will be a while. If you pass through or visit be careful.




          0
    3. That is interesting. It sounds like you are eating a lacto-vegetarian diet …. almost an eco Atkns diet although that is much lower in saturated fat than your diet appears to be.

      High fat diets though appear to impair glucose regulation and are also linked with increased risk for cognitive problems and dementia.
      “Of all the different types of fatty acids, the findings are most consistent for an increased risk of cognitive decline with a higher intake of saturated fatty acids.”
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4107296/
      However, the MUFAs in the olive oil may mitigate this risk somewhat.

      High fat diets have also been associated with increased risk of diabetes possibly because of their effects on glucose regulation and insulin sensitivity.
      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110411121539.htm

      Ironically, lchf diets are now being touted for diabetes management but ‘when people with diabetes are on such an eating plan, they may experience reduced blood sugar levels. But this happens due to low starch intake and has very little to do with insulin controlling blood sugar. Poor insulin performance is masked by low blood sugar levels resulting from low starch intake rather than potency of insulin.’
      https://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/asunta-simoloka/here-are-the-downsides-to-a-lchf-diet-that-you-have-to-consider_a_21642272/

      High fat diets have also been associated with increased risk for certain cancers
      https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/abs/10.2217/fon-2017-0610?journalCode=fon

      A low CAC score would normally be associated with a low risk of heart disease. However. there is evidence that saturated fat damages the heart independently of calcification eg through its effects on coronary and other cells
      https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-12-imaging-reveals-saturated-fatty-acids.html

      I wish you the best of health but suggest that you seriously consider dramatically reducing your intake of saturated fats and replacing them with polyunsaturated or monounsaturated fats if you wish to continue eating lchf.




      5
      1. I am going to say something honest, that I haven’t gone to the doctor in so long and didn’t have high blood pressure or high cholesterol or anything to make the doctor say anything, so I find it hard to follow this part of the debate.

        I remember reading the Atkins Exposed cholesterol part and all people who were losing weight, improved in cholesterol, but once the Atkins people went into maintenance, their cholesterol shot through the roof. Versus the study by Dr. Ornish using vegan where the cholesterol dropped in half.

        http://www.atkinsfacts.org/Atkins_Distorted_His_Record_on_Cholesterol.htm

        Some doctors are saying it is the refined carbs causing the clogged arteries.

        I know that it doesn’t matter to me. I need to keep my fats limited to things like walnuts and seeds and avocado or I don’t lose weight.

        And if I use the calories in a spoonful of oil, which I hate the taste of in the first place, I have to give something up and taking in the oil, I didn’t have a sense of doing something healthy, except that I know it doesn’t spike blood sugar as much as proteins or refined carbs, but eating closer to Dr. Barnard or Fuhrman, reverses the blood sugar problems in a few weeks anyways, so I don’t see that as an advantage.

        I don’t see why I would risk it. I don’t see what it would do.

        Before I saw the Alzheimer’s video where it might be reclassified as a vascular disease, I had some rationale, but now, I just don’t want the extra calories in the first place.




        3
          1. Hi Chris,

            Mostly I just walk right now.

            Though I am working on my house, so I do get some physical exertion, which is not in the form of exercise.

            After I finish paying for my kitchen and flooring, which should be paid off about a year from now, I might go back to something more formal, but I don’t like debt at all and I have never had any debt until doing this project. No mortgage or rent or car payments or cc bills. I find those things conceptually stressful and have forsaken cable or wifi or a land line or other things until my house is finished. Two projects left.




            0
      2. Hi TG,

        Thanks for the amazing post! Yes, I avoid animal products for the most part (especially cheese and dairy – YUCK!) One reason I consume HF is I need the calories, as I’m active. Again, I just wanted to show people a way to help stop the worrying. Thanks again for the reply.

        Chris




        1
      3. TG,

        These are pretty bad papers and links to support those claims. Epidemiological studies cannot establish cause and effect. They just can’t.

        High fat and high carbs, especially high sugar is a bad combination. High fat, low carb is a very healthy way for the vast majority of people to eat. This approach (high fat, low carb) is something almost none of the papers cited on this website address.

        By the way, did you know what diet results in higher plasma saturated fats? A high carbohydrate diet. In the setting of a very low carb diet, a high fat intake does not increase fatty acids in the blood of subjects. Eating a high amount of saturated fats doesn’t change the serum saturated fat levels in the setting of low carb. This is something many people neglect to understand- there is a big disconnect in the dietary macros and what you find in the serum. Eat a bunch of sugar and you find increased levels of triglycerides in the serum. People assume eating saturated fat results in increased serum saturated fat. And that is not true.




        0
        1. David,

          They are hardly bad simply because you don’t like the findings. However, many of them – but not all – were obervational or are reviews and meta analyses that considered observational studies. It is nonetheless a bit much for low carbers to dismiss observational studies out of hand when the bulk of their own arguments are founded on observational studies This is a double standard.

          Their other arguments seem to focus on short term effects on biomarkers. Any diet can have a favourable effet on biomarkes if it removes unhealty components from the diet like trans and refined carbs. Or results in weight loss. Heck, even the Twinkie diet did that. It doesn’t prove that such diets are healtflful let alone optimal.

          What are the effects of low carb diets on mortality and other hard endpoints? My understanding is that they are associated with increased mortality.

          As for all the claims about carbs being harmful, these are based on the effects of refined carbs which everyone recognises are unhealthful. But it’a a convenent justification for ignoring the benefits of vegetable, fruit and wholegrain consumption – unllike every credible health authority on the planet from the WHO down. As Harvard recently observed

          ‘When dairy fat was replaced with the same number of calories from vegetable fat or polyunsaturated fat, the risk of cardiovascular disease dropped by 10% and 24%, respectively. Furthermore, replacing the same number of calories from dairy fat with healthful carbohydrates from whole grains was associated with a 28% lower risk of cardiovascular disease.’
          https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2016/10/25/dairy-fat-cardiovascular-disease-risk/

          Turning that the other way around, if you went lchf and removed whole grains from the diet and replaced them with dairy fats, the Harvard study implies there would be a 39% increased risk of cardivascular disease. Given what we know about how saturated fat damages cells and the endothelium, this is not surprising.




          2
          1. TG,

            Thanks for the reply. Can I explain some of the problems with the studies to which you linked?

            The review by Morris and Tangney on dietary fats and dementia has several fundamental problems. (By the way, your link wan’t to a paper or primary research, it was to a news article). First, it was a meta-analysis of observational studies. Weak from the “get-go” and not able to establish cause and effect. But they included studies looking at both dietary AND serum fatty acids. And that introduces a huge disconnect. Surprisingly, the fat content of a diet does not translate directly to those same fats being seen in the serum. In fact, very well controlled studies show that high carb intake results in increased serum triglycerides. And in the fat-adapted state, intake of high levels of dietary fat doesn’t really change the serum triglyceride level. If anything, it reduces it. So this is a significant problem and oversight with that paper.

            In addition, none of the papers included in the meta-analysis describe the relative proportions of macronutrients of their subjects. And as everybody interest in this should know, the macros matter a lot and significantly alter the way nutrients will be processed. The body will manage dietary fat very differently if that fat is consumed with a high amount of carbs compared to if it is consumed with a very low amount of carbs. This reality is simply not mentioned or accounted for in any of those studies. This is a big problem.

            The study from Wen et al. is a problematic as well. First, it was an in vitro study, so has considerable limitations in being to extrapolate to the human being. But the problems with the first study I mentioned translate into significant problems with this study. As I mentioned before, dietary fat does not directly translate to serum fat.

            Volk et al put out a paper in 2014 that was very well controlled and showed that when a group of subjects decreased their dietary (including saturated fat) systematically and increased their carbohydrate intake (whole grains and low glycemic foods), their serum saturated fatty acid levels increased. So if the paper done in vitro showing that saturated fats contribute to insulin resistance, the argues for the opposite of what you are claiming. It would be the serum level of saturated fats that would be contributing to insulin resistance. And one of the major messages overlooked by people is that dietary fat (including saturated fat) does not directly result in higher serum fatty acid levels in the setting of a low-carb diet.

            The Huffpost article on insulin resistance and low-car high fat diets is just that- an article on a news site written by Asunta Similoka, a “healthy living expert.” Really? No references. Just claims. I can provide several well controlled studies showing that a low-carb high fat diet improves insulin sensitivity. This is possibly the best reason to justify a low carb high fat diet.

            The summary from the paper on dietary fat and cancer stated from the outset that correlations between diet and cancer is very complicated and limited due to the lack of definitions in the different diets in all the papers being reviewed. By the way, can you tell me more about this actual paper- I don’t have access to anything but the summary.

            The last paper you cited- actually this was a news article also- is puzzling. You mention coronary artery calcium tests. And those tests have nothing to do with the article. The actual paper itself is highly technical, and I would love to hear your interpretation of it- maybe you know more about that stuff than me. But my reading of the paper indicates that the researchers were studying the effects of saturated fatty acids SYNTHESIZED WITHIN THE CELL and their effects on the membrane phase dynamics of the endoplasmic reticulum within the cell. Now I don’t know a ton about phase dynamics of ER membranes, but I fail to see how this is in any way supporting your claims about dietary fats.

            In short, the authors and posters on this site have significant limitations in their ability to read and interpret scientific literature. And that being the case, I struggle to understand how you continue to make the claims that you do. The scholarship here is atrocious. I really don’t mean to be offensive. But the folks here are claiming to really understand this scientific literature. And you are influencing the way people live their lives.




            0
            1. TG,

              Another thought on the claims about dietary fat damaging vascular endothelial cells.

              On of my frustrations in reading that literature about a month ago is that the studies that support the claim that dietary fat damages endothelial function are very vague in describing the meals they fed their subjects. And they say nothing about the baseline diet of the subjects. And those things matter tremendously.

              Jeff Volek and others published a study in 2009 that was very well controlled in this way. They compared overweight subjects endothelial function as measured by flow-mediate dilation after eating well defined meals (low fat vs low carb and high fat). But they did this both at baseline and after 12 weeks of either following a low fat diet or a low carb high fat diet. The results? Those subjects consuming a low carb high fat diet for 12 weeks showed increased flow-mediate dilation after a fatty meal. Subjects consuming the low fat diet for 12 weeks showed a decrease in flow-mediated dilation after the fatty meal.

              The study with the best controlled conditions show very consistently that there are very significant beneficial effects of a low carb high fat diet in most people. You just have to look a little deeper.




              0
                    1. Nothing to discuss? Not really a scientific, inquiring approach to things, eh?

                      What can you tell me about intramyocellular lipotoxicity and insulin resistance? Convince me. I want to be open to new information and data.




                      0
                    2. Based on your previous comments to Tom, I just wanted confirm how deeply brainwashed you really are regarding SF.

                      So I’m not going to waste my time explaining it since it’s quite clear where your mind is at.




                      1
                    3. Brainwashed? Judgement call?

                      Dietary saturated fats are not the same, necessarily, as serum saturated fats.

                      Dietary saturated fats are not deleterious in the setting of a very-low carb diet. And in the setting of very-low carb diet, dietary saturated fats do not increase serum saturated fats. High carbohydrate intake, however, increases serum saturated fats.

                      The human body is far more nuanced than you are giving it credit.




                      1
                    4. Ok, so keep eating and recommending your HSF-LC-HP dietary approach so you and crew are devoid of Fiber, RS, and Phytonutrients to escape T2DM while you ramp up your risk of Heart Disease, Cancer, and gastro-intestinal disorders. Nice.




                      1
                    5. caspergomez,

                      I find it interesting that people against the low carb high fat diet typically mischaracterize the diet dramatically. I eat a lot of green and leafy vegetables- tons of fiber. I eat whole, natural foods. I can’t remember the last time I ate processed food. I get quite a lot of phytonutrients. I get about 15-20% of my calories from protein. So it is not a high protein diet. This is typical of people living the ketogenic lifestyle. Not sure what RS is. Can you help me there?

                      There are no studies demonstrating that a ketogenic diet (not high protein) increases risks of heart disease, cancer, and gastrointestinal disorders. Maybe you can help me there too.




                      1
                    6. Not really. I am the typical keto type- some meat, high fat dairy, eggs, green leafy vegetables, small amount of fruit- mostly berries,

                      I eat a lot of broccoli, asparagus, spinach, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, avacados. I use olive oil, coconut oil, Avacado oil.

                      I haven’t eaten resistant startches intentionally- I understand them, but am not very familiar with them.




                      1
              1. David,
                I found your posts very interesting and did look a little deeper. Here’s a link to the Volek paper you cited for those interested:
                http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0113605

                What struck me about that paper was that the subjects had metabolic syndrome, i.e. they were insulin resistant. Is is it really surprising that people with insulin resistance showed higher de novo lipogenesis with a HCLF diet compared to those on a LCHF diet, at least in the short term? Also I found no discussion of what sort of carb was provided. I’d guess it was simple carbs (which if true, would be stacking the deck). I also briefly looked at a few other studie by Volek et al and in each case I found the subjects had some health problem e.g. were overweight/obese. It seems to me that extrapolating from such studies to healthy people is unjustified.




                1
                1. David,

                  Thanks for your response. This paper is an interesting paper and highlights an important point lost on too many people. That point is that dietary fats, including saturated fats, do not necessarily translate into serum fats. In keto-adapted individuals, a high fat meal does not increase serum fatty acids, including saturated fats. In normal individuals, a high carb meal increases hepatic DNL with consequent increases in serum fats. And this is precisely opposite what people assume. The traditional assumption has been that dietary fats result in serum fats. But this is not true.

                  By the way, under the METHODS section, they state, “For the higher carbohydrate diet phases with lower saturated fat, leaner versions of beef, egg substitutes, and low-fat dairy (e.g., reduced-fat dairy, skim milk, low-fat/non-fat yogurt) were used instead. Whole grain and relatively low glycemic index carbohydrate sources were emphasized.” So it wasn’t as if they fed the subjects a high sugar diet.

                  There are literally countless studies showing that dietary carbohydrates increase serum triglycerides. In fact, this is a fairly common things among vegans- their LDL-C goes down but their triglycerides go up. Here are a few articles to support this idea of dietary carbs increasing serum triglycerides:

                  https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/131/10/2772S/4686463

                  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1038/oby.2003.150

                  http://www.jlr.org/content/41/4/595.full

                  And a person could pull up literally 50 more.

                  In healthy individuals as well as in individuals with metabolic syndrome, a high carb meal typically results in higher plasma triglycerides.

                  I have to run, but will get back to this later.




                  0
                  1. David,

                    Here is a link to a paper from Volek and colleagues where they analyze biomarkers with the keto diet vs. normal diet in normal weight men without lipid abnormalities at baseline. They found the same thing- The ketogenic diet resulted in “significant decreases in fasting serum TAG (-33%), postprandial lipemia after a fat-rich meal (-29%), and fasting serum insulin concentrations (-34%) after men consumed the ketogenic diet. Fasting serum total and LDL cholesterol and oxidized LDL were unaffected and HDL cholesterol tended to increase with the ketogenic diet (+11.5%; P = 0.066). In subjects with a predominance of small LDL particles pattern B, there were significant increases in mean and peak LDL particle diameter and the percentage of LDL-1 after the ketogenic diet. There were no significant changes in blood lipids in the control group. Again- this was in normal-weight men without baseline lipid abnormalities.

                    The same analysis was done in women, and they found the same thing.

                    Here are the links:

                    https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/132/7/1879/4687418

                    and

                    https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/133/9/2756/4688219




                    0
                    1. David,
                      Thanks for the links, which I will read. Dr. Mirkin, who advocates a whole-food plant-based diet (along with some fatty fish but no red meat) recently discussed a study on exogenous vs. endogenous saturated fat that supports you main point:
                      http://www.drmirkin.com/diabetes/how-excess-calories-lead-to-diabetes.html
                      To quote part of it:
                      “How Excess Calories Lead to Diabetes
                      The largest study of its kind, from the University of Cambridge in the UK, shows that the saturated fats that increase risk for diabetes and heart attacks are made primarily by the human liver from carbohydrates, and far less so from eating foods that are high in saturated fats (Lancet Diabetes & Endocrinology, published online August 6, 2014). Researchers followed 340,234 adults from eight European countries. Using high-speed blood analysis, they measured the types of saturated fats in the bloodstream and found that they could predict who would become diabetic by their high levels of even-chain saturated fats.”
                      …”The vast majority of even-chain saturated fats that increase risk for becoming diabetic … are made by the human liver in response to excess calories from alcohol, soft drinks and foods made from flour or starchy vegetables such as potatoes, and far less from dietary sources such as meat, butter, cheese or fried foods. ”

                      On a personal note, I am a vegan, and typically 60% or more of my calories come from whole food carbs, and 23-25% from fat, so HCLF according to Volek. Nevertheless, my fasting triglycerides are typically in the 70-80 range, and my other cholesterol and hs-crp results are favorable. So in my case, HCLF seems to have no obvious ill effects. But, and this is the key point, I burn all of the calories I eat – no excess calories!. So it is not the case that eating a HCLF diet (by Volek’s definition) necessarily results in high triglycerides. I am still of the belief that eating a lot of animal foods is less healthy than minimizing them. One piece of evidence is the eating patterns of the so-called Blue Zones. The amount of fat varies considerably depending on the group but the amount of animal foods is low.

                      Thanks for the interesting discussion.




                      0
  11. Green cabbage is cheapest of all–I see it for half the price of purple cabbage. Is purple cabbage so advantageous that it’s worth the extra dollar, or is green cabbage about on par and worth eating if you’ll buy/eat more of it?
    Thanks!




    3
    1. The more colorful veggies, such as red cabbage and red onions, have more antioxidants, but if the budget is tight, enjoy the green.




      4
    2. Purple cabbage is one of Dr. Greger’s biggest bang for the buck foods with respect to nutrition delivered per dollar. Green, not so much. Worth the difference, imho.




      4
    3. Maria, as far as the nutrition goes.

      You could eat double or more to get the iron and Vitamin C and Vitamin A, but the color is where much of the anti cancer and other disease fighting benefits are.

      if you actually started eating double the green to get some of the benefits, but still missed the disease fighting properties, red becomes a better deal, because you can eat half of it.




      0
    4. My humble opinion, after researching diet & health issues extensively over
      the last year or so: The studies & research thus far seem to indicate that
      eating both green and red cabbage, eating some of it steamed or microwaved
      for 4 minutes or less, and eating some raw, would give you optimum benefit.
      Lightly cooked has its advantages, and raw has other advantages, so doing
      some of both seems wise. Red cabbage, kale, all crucifers, garlic, onions, and
      other things are awesome for your cardiovascular health, cholesterol, & blood
      pressure; while green cabbage is slightly better than red when it comes to anti-
      cancer activity. But that’s just a slight difference. As far as veggies to prevent
      or kill cancer: Broccoli Sprouts are #1, by far – 30 to 100 times more powerful at
      killing cancer cells than mature Broccoli. Then comes Brussels Sprouts, Broccoli,
      Cauliflower, Green & Red Cabbage, Kale, Mustard Sprouts, then Radishes.
      Sorry I can’t remember all the websites this info comes from. It’s just been 15
      months of solid Googling on diet, nutrition, health. But don’t forget the power of
      your mind. What you have absolute faith and belief in plays a huge part in
      everything. There are people who have completely cured themselves of cancer
      by overdosing on carrots only – juicing & eating carrots till their skin had an orange
      tint! The thing is, they BELIEVED that would cure them!




      2
  12. If a person truly found a cure for cancer, or found away to run a car on water, or was able to harness electricity from the air and from the earth for free energy….rest assured the government would silence you forever. I read an article where a guy in California found some buried treasure in his backyard and the government is legally coming after him to take it away because it is deemed an antiquity from the past, and the government owns all antiquities. Moral of the story……keep your discoveries to yourself and share with no one.




    1
  13. I’m surprised that when discussing the best way to eat kale, Dr. Greger didn’t mention high speed blending.

    In other videos, Dr. Greger demonstrated that high speed blending does as good a job as cooking in breaking open cell walls to increase bioavailability – without the heat damage cooking can cause. This is one more reason to love my Vitamix!




    4
    1. I’ll go you one better than a conventional blender…..a hand held blender. Different makes and models are available. Basically they are hand held devices which have a high speed attached blender or mixer on the end.
      You stick it in to what you want to put in your smoothie and it does the same thing a blender does but with little of the clean up. You rinse the attachment under a water faucet and it comes clean and the cup you use can be the one you drink it from….

      To much attaching cleaning detaching for me with a conventional blender. Seems better if I am not that hungry as well…..just throw a couple of things in a drinking cup(I use a quart type mug) with water or a almond milk type thing and you are good to go. Much easier to my opinion.
      Hate fussing with blenders.




      1
      1. Thanks for the tip. I find it a real hassle to use my Vitamix blender, because it is so time consuming to clean. Because of the hassle I frequently avoid making a smoothie when I should in order to get the nutrients that I need. I’ll check into your hand held blender system.




        0
        1. Cheap to John. The best in Walmart was only around 20 or so USD(forget the exact price its been a while). The most expensive blender you could add a hundred to that 20.

          I have a blender but now rarely use it.




          1
          1. Ron, I have been reading these testimonies on Jim Humble’s website. He teaches people how to make MMS or chlorine dioxide to cure hundreds of different diseases. I know this sounds to good to be true. And, we are always warned by the medical establishment that we need to be aware of any kind of panacea. And MMS is part of the alternative medicine scene with thousands of people around the world taking it. Anyhow, it would be interesting to get your “take” on just this one page of hundreds of pages on his website concerning cancer and healing. This is the testimony page for cancer. But, if you look at the right hand column you can pick out any disease and read those testimonies for those diseases such as COPD, or fungal infection or whatever. But, I would really like to hear what you think. As for me, I am really intrigued about MMS and have been reading a lot about it and I have even ordered some, but I do not plan on taking it because I am healthy. Here’s the LINK: http://mmstestimonials.is/cancer




            0
            1. Just gave it a quick look see John….that mineral thing. I was once exposed to it years and years ago by a person I knew who was a strong advocate. He actually said he discontinued his health insurance so confident he was in it.
              I said to myself, how about you get hit by a car.
              Point being he was not by my view the sharpest tool in the shed.
              I even bought one if his things just to give it a go…but really found no affect, bought like a two month supply. I was not sick either. Not this same thing but something real similar.

              So I guess you are at stage four nothing helps sure give that a try. Why not?
              But for the rest of us, you and I, whole foods plant based I think is the best bang for the buck.
              Veggies are so cheap comparatively I am saving bunches. I still eat a fair amount of processed but like right now…back from hiking the pecos wilderness, almost to tired to cook…made a smoothie… Flax milk some soy protein, put in kale spinach a beet turmeric pepper a dash of oil..good to go. As Bill Burr the comedian says…they almost give the stuff away.

              I get sick maybe I start looking into stuff like that.




              0
              1. To add John…just heard Warren Buffet talking coke(he owns interest) and his saying how this new thing whole foods is making inroads into Kraft Coke and some others. I guess Cosco has just stopped selling coke. A CNBC interview today.

                Whole foods(the food not the company now owned by Amazon) is on their radar.
                If they can’t kill it they will try to take it over….look to see veggies increase in price coming soon to a supermarket near you is my guess…..




                0
              2. Ron, you are living the dream to be able to go hiking around wherever you want. Here in Texas all of the land is fenced off and owned by people and you just can’t go hiking around, unless you go to a national park, and even then when you go to a national park the rangers make sure that you stay on the trail and do not get off of the trail. As far as MMS goes, like I said, I am really curious about it so I have purchased some. Here’s the thing…..some vegans do come down with cancer and some vegans do have heart attacks. Vegans are not disease proof. So, even though I am on a whole plant food diet, and I lift weights in my garage, and I get about 30 minutes of sun bathing everyday, and I avoid stress as much as possible…….I think it might be wise to know all you can about MMS and how to use for “just in case”. The FDA and the AMA are totally against MMS. Tom Goff would condemn MMS until the end of time because it is not approved by the authorities and he would just dismiss all of the testimonies of the thousands of people who said that it helped them because he does not believe in testimonies. He only believes in government sanctioned double blind studies that are approved by main stream doctors who are beholding to the pharmacological companies and the AMA.




                2
                1. Well there is truth to what you say John, I would not deny that.
                  Vegans come down with this and that because they have piss poor diets to my opinion. I myself at times did not have a very good vegan diet. I am trying to do better with age however.
                  I really do think it is the best bang for back. If I worried a lot I would probably be counting grams and carbs and this and that. Some here perhaps by medical history seem a bit extreme. I think if you eat halfway healthy and are vegan mostly you remain healthy.
                  If I wanted a superhealthy vegan diet I think I know enough to make up one. But I like to eat as well. So balance this and that. Getting sick I think I would just go superhealthy vegan.

                  Funny thing about Texas, I passed through the campground on my way out and the campground host had a 6 by 6 foot texas flag by their RV. Jacks creek that campground. Seems more and more campgrounds are getting filled by RV homeless. Noticed that on my drive through…some seemed not campers but down and out.
                  Lots of visitors to the Pecos are from Texas. Most I’d say in campgrounds and on the trails in summer.
                  I have my revenge though..I body surf padre island.




                  0
                  1. The homeless population is growing. It is really bad in San Diego, Los Angeles, and San Francisco. The last time I was in San Diego over by Point Loma I noticed a lot of broken down RV’s with people living in them. They like to park their RV’s as close as they can to the ocean. Some of these homeless people are fishing in the surf for food. I don’t know if you need a fishing license to fish in the surf or not, but some of them were. But, I can understand how many of them become homeless because the cost of living in California is exorbitant. We have homeless here in San Antonio. Just drive behind any of the alleys behind the stores and you will see them curled up next to a dumpster with their card board shelters. I see them all the time sleeping under the highway bridges. R.V.’s are a real bad investment. They are always breaking down. If you are going to live on the road, then it would be better to live in a van that you converted yourself.




                    1
                    1. Same in Albuquerque but it has not a thing to do with cost of living here. Actually nothing has changed there other than more homeless.
                      But seeing homeless in RV’s in jacks creek is a new new thing. It is very remote and about 9000 ft. They are strict though and I expect they have to move on in two weeks, probably to other campgrounds in the area.

                      The reports I hear suggest it is a nationwide thing this increase. But most think it only here or there.




                      0
                2. John

                  I really don’t know why you or anybody else chooses to believe crackpot conspiracy theories, opinionated cranks or con artists exploiting the sick and dying for personal profit. Personally, I prefer scientific evidence over the extravagant claims of hucksters selling stuff. And yeah testimonials – they are basic marketing 101 and absolutely indispensable when the actual evidence shows harm or no benefit. You can find plenty of testimonials for unhealthy diets, worthless products, drinking your own urine and breatharianism

                  But hey if you want to spend your money buyiing very expensive diluted bleach, you go for it.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement




                  6
                  1. Tom,

                    It is not Bleach. It is not Chlorine. It is chlorine dioxide. Dentist use it all the time to irrigate the hole they drill in your teeth for a root canal. It is not expensive. You can buy it for around $14. As a matter of fact you can buy it as a water purification tablets from a company called Potable Aqua. Or you can buy it as a means to purify water on camping trips through a company called aqualine. If you want to dismiss all of the thousands and thousands of people who say that chlorine dioxide has helped them overcome prostate cancer and other illness then so be it. If you want to rely upon something that is really expensive called chemo therapy that has a very poor success rate, then so be it.

                    Here is one of thousands of testimonies of people who are not lying that MMS or chlorine dioxide has cured their prostate cancer. “My name is Gerald McClellan and am 72 years old of Monroe, NC. I was diagnosed with prostate cancer in Nov 2011 and my doctor said that my prostate had a PSA reading of 5.89 and was over 80% infected with cancer and he suggessed that I have it removed or I would not live more than 5 years. Well believing in my doctor I aggreed to have it removed and they did remove it in Jan of 2012. I had been scheduled to have a PSA reading done every 3 months to see if my cancer was gone and it wasn’t so they scheduled me for 37 treatments of radiation, which was completed in July of 2012. From that point on my PSA readings, which were low but not gone, were doubling every 3 months until I learned about MMS in Jan. 2014. My son ordered it and I started on Jim Humble’s protocol 1000+ and when I had my April PSA reading my cancer had reversed for the first time in two years and now is gone. My reading have always been pretty low but not the 0.00 reading I should have had being I don’t have a prostate. Well I have documented reading which prove that the MMS did in fact reverse my cancer and got rid of it. I also was using Vitamine B17 between my April reading and June reading to find out if it also worked and it did and my cancer keep going down. So between my June reading and Oct reading I was just taking the MMS2, pill form, and found out that the hyprocloric acid thickened my blood, even though I was on cumiden because of having AFib. And I suffered with a mini-stroke that affected my right eye making me cross eyed to over 18 degree off center. I could see out of the eye OK but not both at the same time. I went to an eye doctor and had some medical test done. My eye doctor said that I might possibly have to have an operation on the eye but wanted me to wait and see if it got better on it’s own. If no changes were seen by 6 months then the operation would have to be scheduled. Well I knew that my MMS worked for my cancer so I thought that it might work as well for my stroke also. I made up a activated 10 drop solution and put it with distilled water in a sprey bottle and made up a 70/30% solution of DMSO and spreyed it on my hole right side of my head and around my eyes two to three times a day. I told my eye doctor what I did and I notice improvement after the 3 days and my eye site returned to normal within 10 days. My eye doctor couldn’t believe of my rapid recovery and wanted to know what actually it was that I did so I told her about MMS and how I used it to recover. I had her make notes of my use of MMS and had her put them in my medical record and gave her a CD with all of the imformation about MMS. I also had my urologist put my taking MMS in my medical records he has. Neither doctor would admit that this use of MMS would really work.
                    But the records of recovery speak for themselves.”

                    Here’s the LINK: http://mmstestimonials.is/prostate-cancer




                    0
                    1. Well I for one hereby dismiss it. The FDA has issued strong warnings about the dangers of using it. Their is zero science behind it and scam artists can easily create thousands of testimonials.




                      5
                    2. This site regularly receives spam from a South African herbal clinical purporting to be unsolicited testimonials from clients who were magically cured of all sorts of dire diseases as a result of buying herbal formulas from the clinic. They all seem to be fake.

                      This MMS stuff is being sold here in Australia as part of some MLM arrangements

                      ‘THE suppliers of a ‘‘miracle’’ water additive linked to one death in Vanuatu and at least 10 hospitalisations in Australia have come under fire from authorities for endangering the public by claiming the bleach-based substance can cure everything from AIDS to cancer.
                      The Therapeutic Goods Administration investigated the online company that sells Miracle Mineral Solution water purification drops after a complaint from a senior public health expert, who warned that consuming the liquid could lead to fatal health complications.’

                      https://www.smh.com.au/national/miracle-elixir-linked-to-death-illness-20100821-13a2z.html

                      And from the Australian Governent

                      ‘MMS is marketed as water purification drops and may be offered under different names, including Miracle Mineral Supplement. It contains 28% sodium chlorite, which is a chemical used as a textile bleaching agent and disinfectant. Products containing this concentration of sodium chlorite pose a serious health risk if consumed by humans and should be labelled with warnings and the word ‘POISON’.

                      MMS is not approved by the TGA for any therapeutic use.

                      In Australia, products that are used in the purification or treatment of drinking water, and which do not make therapeutic claims, are not considered therapeutic goods.’
                      https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/miracle-mineral-solution-mms




                      3
                    3. John,

                      I have used chlorine dioxide when my dog got ringworm and it is a powerful product.

                      After it worked so well for that, I bought a chlorine dioxide mouthwash and used it for a long while.

                      It does kill things very, very quickly. I saw petri dishes on the pet spray site and nothing at all grew in it. It worked very fast for ringworm. I was happy.

                      I have a few thoughts and the first is:

                      What about the mouth and gut bacteria?

                      There is a phenomenon where if you use those high kill mouthwashes, sometimes you end up killing the good mouth bacteria and the bad mouth bacteria are hidden nicely between your teeth and when they come out, they have no competition and people end up having all kinds of problems. Same thing with antibiotics. You kill a whole lot of things, but wipe out things and don’t produce equol, for instance. (If that is the proper spelling. See Dr. Greger’s video listed by topic or his current podcast)

                      Also, the testimony you are posting is on Prostate Cancer and Dr. Greger posted the testimony of a man whose Prostate Cancer had metastasized to his bones and he reversed it with things like the equivalent of a tablespoon of tomato paste per day or a cup of tomato juice or tomato sauce, as long as it wasn’t on pizza.

                      Why ingest Chlorine Dioxide versus the glass of tomato juice?

                      Why not do a Dr. Ornish diet, since he reversed it with food?




                      2
                    4. A while back, I watched a documentary about the man who won the Nobel Prize about water and he talked about how we kill everything alive in the water and the water isn’t the same.

                      It was a powerful documentary, because the “living water” had the power to bring health, but the “dead water” didn’t have the same power.

                      Chlorine Dioxide is what they use to make the dead water. Motion and light and minerals and all sorts of bacteria are what makes the living water.

                      Yes, we need the chlorine dioxide sometimes, if we are camping and the water we are drinking is not safe.

                      But the documentary wasn’t exalting the miraculous power of the “chlorine dioxide treated dead water”

                      I say that sincerely, because I have probably had water with chlorine dioxide and bought a filter to get rid of the taste, but I watched the documentary about what living water as God intended can do and man is not so good at figuring out a superior design most of the time.




                      1
                    5. I am going to say that if you take it, you will definitely kill most of your mouth bacteria for starters, and I feel like I want to ask you, if antibiotics weren’t regulated, how many good things would have happened and how fast wouldn’t they have worked anymore and what type of damage would have been done.

                      Antibiotics work, but now they don’t work as powerfully. I don’t know if that is possible with chlorine dioxide.

                      I think they use it, because it kills so many things, but isn’t it a mystery that vegetables work by bringing good bacteria and other things to the table with them.

                      That is the “intelligent design” I like and, yes, Dr Greher would say we evolved to be in relationship with these things called mouth and gut bacteria.




                      1
                    6. I remember when I researched it wondering if I could just drink some of my mouthwash.

                      And I remember using the mouthwash and without the flavoring, it tastes exactly like the town water treated with chlorine dioxide.

                      I ponderied that when I gargles with it.

                      I said, “Did they just bottle my town water and sell it back to me as mouthwash?

                      Something told me that I could just take the water purifier off of my faucet and gargle with that and only miss the bacteria between my teeth.




                      0
                3. John,

                  I read those pages, back when I had Cancer symptoms, but ended up doing every super food possible instead.

                  As far as vegans getting cancer, you are right about that, but if a vegan gets cancer, it seems wiser to figure out what they were exposed to: heavy metals, power lines, too much technology, mercury fillings, dead teeth after root canals, lead or mercury or arsenic from dishes, or acidic drinks, etc.

                  The people who have walked a lot of people through Cancer, always start with “What happened that you have this?” and I prefer the woman who studied the thousands of people whose cancer went into “Spontaneous Remission” to figure out what they had in common and it was that they radically changed their diet and used things like herbs and a list of other things.

                  I also read the link Tom posted. Yes, I walked it through ALWAYS from BOTH sides, trying carefully to not choose a side.

                  Dr. Greger is going to be doing black salve / blood root coming up and that is a subject that interests me. I saw images from the Native American community of a brain tumor being removed with it and I saw the doctor who removed her own breast cancer that way and on Chris Beat Cancer a man removed Pancreas Cancer. I also watched a ton of YouTube videos and one woman I couldn’t watch, because her whole nose was covered in cancer and I don’t know what happened to her nose by the end, but if anyone knows, they can tell me. Some of the people got scars. The doctor, had to do the process twice on her breast, because she didn’t buy the “deep tissue” cansema.

                  And, if I had the choice between a mascectomy and blood root, I would be trying the blood root first. Cheaper than surgery. Hurts. But nobody was crying or moaning or begging for pain meds, like I have seen people do post surgery.

                  And, no, I am not recommending it. I am just saying that I am genuinely open minded AND I have a very long pause, before making decisions and welcome hearing bad news or good news, but hate “sales pitches” and what I am going to call “reverse sales pitches” where people put things down without data.

                  A few of my friends actually drank the bleach and I would rather eat so much flax and broccoli sprouts and garlic and green tea and kale and red cabbage and every, every, every, every thing other than bleach possible.

                  Bill Henderson said that diet got people most of the way, but people often had something other than diet going on, like the fillings or cell phone usage, etc. Finding that is way better than trying things from the internet.




                  0
                  1. I re-listened to parts of the Food Revolution Summit this weekend and one of the things, which was brought up is that part of the problem with things like antibiotics is that species of bacteria are going extinct.




                    0
        2. John,

          I’ve owned a Vitamix since the 1970s and I don’t have any trouble cleaning it at all. Most of the time all it takes is a good rinse and a swish or two of a sponge or scrubby pad. Of course, if you’ve been making your own peanut butter, or doing something with a lot of fat it is harder. If that’s the case, just rinse, pour the rinse water out, put in a little hot water and a small squirt of dish detergent, then run the machine. You may still have to go over the inside quickly with a sponge or long handled brush, but that’s all. It never takes me long to clean mine.




          2
          1. LW…I just made myself a smoothie with that hand held thing…cleaning time two seconds..one second to turn on the tap the other to put the thing under the water flow…….that’s it. Clean as a whistle, then usually I dry it with a towel. The cup I clean in any event.

            I used blenders for years this is just way easier. Actually like tonight. Just came back from backpacking the pecos wilderness,,,,who wants to mess with a blender. Just put the stuff in a big mug and put the thingamajig in……rinsed off and done.




            0
            1. Aha! I’m detecting that you keep your little hand blender out on the counter where it’s handy. I keep my Vitamix there, but my stick blender gets taken apart and stored in the cabinet with the cups. That’s probably why I prefer using the Vitamix. That, and the fact that I can’t seem to make a smoothie that is less than a quart in volume!




              1
              1. Don’t get the cheapest out there as it will not last. Most don’t use them once or twice a day.
                I have two actually faberware and Hamilton beach. I think most of the blending companies make at least one.




                0
        3. Really? After I pour the contents into a glass, I switch some water into the Vitamix pitcher. I think it takes about five seconds. And yes, it’s clean.




          0
    2. One issue with drinking leafy greens is that you do not get the benefits of chewing. Chewing well initiates the process that results in the formation of nitrous oxide, which relaxes blood vessels. Skip this and you skip this process. That’s why Dr. Esseltstyn is against blending/juicing leafy greens. A mix of blended/juiced and chewed would, no doubt, be fine unless one is trying to reverse heart disease using Esselstyn’s protocol.




      5
      1. Well G you don’t just mix in greens. I throw in beets aragula when I can find it as as well..don’t you then get the nitrous oxide affect from the beets? It seems it does not disappear that effect because they are not chewed.
        Some small part perhaps.
        But I would not live just on blended things. Of course you need others such as beans which are not so amenable to blending.

        I usually just go with it for breakfast normally do have a good base to get through the day. Adding flax and turmeric and pepper.




        0
        1. Well my spell check is possessed..no seriously….. it mandates a capital for Satan(just did it) but no capital for god…;)




          0
          1. Perhaps that is because there are many gods but only one satan – ie the latter is a proper name.

            Your spiell check will probably capitalise jehovah and yahweh? Mine appears not to though.




            0
            1. yahweh jehovah………damn you are a genius TG…it does…. red lined both.
              I thought Christians believed only in one god though.

              My Buddhist training does support multiple gods however. Multiple god realms even. Mara is the same as satan in a way, but he does reappear in many forms throughout history as not one thing but a different thing with one aim…..but they also redline Mara.

              So my spell check is not possessed it still sucks. Met the man who designed things like that for Microsoft back in the day…..actually at a Buddhist retreat house. Took his stock payout and vanished to there and then to one in Germany. Found a sponser I think. Suffice it to say they do not think as us mere mortals do, those who design these things.;)




              0
        1. My spell check ? Sure does it every time….Satan….see will not except a lower case satan.
          Red line showing now underneath…take my word on it…
          God no problem.




          0
        2. Got this from Esselstyn, who I generally trust. Can’t find whether Dre. Greger discusses the topic but cf.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27872324

          “The salivary glands and oral bacteria play an essential role in the conversion process from nitrate (NO3-) and nitrite (NO2-) to nitric oxide (NO) in the human body. …This review describes the role of salivary glands and oral bacteria in the metabolism of nitrate and in the maintenance of NO homeostasis. “

          http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022034516673019?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3Dpubmed&

          “In the oral cavity, commensal facultative anaerobic bacteria
          located in the deep crypts of the posterior part of the tongue can
          reduce nitrate to nitrite by action of nitrate reductase enzymes
          (Duncan et al. 1995; Li et al. 1997). The salivary glands and oral
          bacteria play an important role in maintaining NO homeostasis”

          Exercise also produces NO. A little vinegar also greatly enhances production as Dr. Greger has pointed out in past videos.

          Btw, Dr. Greger points out that smoothies can be hard on enamel. Personally I don’t drink a lot of them these days as I am old enough to be concerned about enamel although they are a great way to get a lot of nutrition quickly.




          2
          1. Here is a study on beetroot juice which is certainly not chewed but does exhibit the same tendency in this specific to enhance sports performance…
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25068792

            Not to say the mechanism(chewing) does not function as described but to state we also gain this benefit through other forms as well.

            To add I have gotten into the habit of using straws with most things as I drink a lot of hibiscus tea but do include that with smoothies…gets stuck in the beard if I do not..the yuck factor on that unremediated is about 9 out of ten. ;)




            0
            1. RinNM – Your point is well taken. I think Esselstyn’s point is about maximizing NO production for those with heart disease. In fact, he wants his patients to first cook the leafy greens until very soft to break down the cell structure, add a few drops of vinegar (which boosts NO production) and chew very, very well. Healthy individuals do not need to follow such stringent protocols.

              Also, as I mentioned in another note, exercise itself (likely most especially vigorous exercise) is a potent producer of NO. Many paths to success!




              2
              1. Yes indeed G I do agree Esselstyn’s focus is strict and narrow in that aim. Perhaps without the disease we don’t need to focus to that extend. To deviate a bit from topic in exercise study it is now thought a potent increaser of max oxygen uptake Vo2max is a very intense burst of anaerobic activity like a full on sprint but only for 20 seconds duration and only as little as three times daily. In sequence with little rest in between.
                I wonder if that works on the same principal? In any event I am trying to incorporate that into my personal training. I have to draw the line somewhere so…I refuse to chew my salad tonight for 20 minutes…;) I don’t care how healthy it may make me.
                .




                1
                1. RinNM, I’m a big fan of high intensity interval training and do the Norwegian 4×4 2-3 times per week.
                  https://www.ntnu.edu/cerg/advice Also a fan of weight lifting, and do that 2 times per week on average, and walk/jog/hike with my dog every day. Aerobic exercise, including HIIT, increases the number and function of mitochondria, which people lose as they age if they do not do sufficient adequately challenging exercise. When I worked I did not have time for all this exercise (or so I told myself) but since retiring have become a fanatic. Got my resting heart rate to drop to 45-50 using HIIT. Move it or lose it!
                  I’ve read exercise produces NO from the mechanical pressure on the blood vessels, causing them to produce it.




                  0
  14. Sometimes it’s hard to grasp the takeaway of videos here. This one was simple, but on others, like the role of chemicals and vaccines in autism, I feel like the point is easily buried or can be misunderstood/overshadowed. When I think of showing these to my mother, I can imagine her getting thrown off-kelter by all the unfamiliar text and studies on screen.

    The best part about this site is the rigorous attention to studies, so I don’t want to squash that approach at all, but I think the videos could do a better job at “bringing it home” for the lamen. Otherwise it’s too easy to leave either confused or not having pre-mis-conceptions about the topic properly challenged.

    I think the videos would benefit greatly from a summary slide at the end of each saying “Summary- according to the recent studies at the time of this video: A) vaccines were not conclusively shown to cause austism, B) environmental toxins were shown to be a statistically significant factor in causing it, and C) and so forth”.

    Would that be a possible consideration for including moving forward?




    3
    1. Both groups still consumed eggs. One 2 per day and the other 2 per week. If the study was on eggs why was it not designed on no eggs as opposed to eggs?
      Seems to make no sense unless the number was chosen for a reason of agenda to produce result. Eggs are not some singular substance we will die without and a study could easily have been designed with no eggs…..

      Participants with prediabetes or T2D (n = 128) were prescribed a 3-mo daily energy restriction of 2.1 MJ and a macronutrient-matched diet and instructed on specific types and quantities of foods to be consumed, with an emphasis on replacing saturated fats with monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. Participants were followed up at the 9- and 12-mo visits.”

      Sounds like both groups had a emphasis on replacement of sat fat. So what did this study test? Eggs or sat fat effect?

      Just on the abstract. Two red flags.




      0
    2. That link only goes to an abstract so it is not possible to examine the characteristics of the study participants or the detailsof their diets.

      However, the effects of dietary cholesterol from eggs and other sources have been well studied for many, many years and are well known. It is also well known under what circumstances dietary cholesterol does not affect serum cholesterol and other lipids. These facts have been used by the egg industry over recent decades to fund rafts of studies which appear to show that egg consumption has no effect on serum cholesterol. The latest meta analyses of studies by independent researchers are now quite old. They showed that eg serum cholesterol is not increased by dietary cholesterol when people’s baseline cholesterol ia already high. In the US and other Western countries, average or ‘normal’ cholesterol is high and little effect is seen. I imagine that people with (pre) diabetes and who are overweight or obese would also tend to have even higher average cholesterol levels. Doing studies on people in Western countries in such circumstances, as industry funded studies tend to do, are therefore likely to show no effects from high egg consumption.

      A further factor whch affects dietary cholesterol’s effects on serum cholesterol is the type of fat in the diet. Saturated fat tends to magnify the effect of dietary cholesterol while polyunsaturated fat tends to reduce it. In the study you cite, they apparently told the study participants to replace saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat.

      It’s little surprise then that the North American, Australian and British egg industries continue to fund such studies. They garner favourable media attention and they also influence the updating of dietary guidelines. In the US case, in the development of the 2015-20 guidelines, reviewers were instructed to update the 2010-15 guidelines in the light of studies published since 2009. Since virtually all the new studies regarding dietary cholesterol were funded by industry, this would explain why the formal guidance to ensure dietary cholesterol consumption did not exceed a certain amount was dropped. This was logical – such studies showed little or no effect on serum cholesterol etc from dietary cholesterol cosumed by US populations.

      A cynic might argue that this was the result of industry deliberately gaming the known science to deliver study results that appear to exonerate dietary cholesterol. Below are some relevant recent links discussing these issues

      http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/102/2/235.full
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989358/




      2
      1. Excellent points, Tom and well-written!! Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoroughly!
        I’ll take a look at the link.




        1
  15. Chris-
    When you say a HF diet, what percent of calories are you talking about? My vegan diet is high in fat too, approx. 25-27% almost all from nuts/seeds, and I also need the calories as I am thin (BMI ~19) and exercise several hours per day including on alternative days, weights, high intensity interval training (Norwegian 4 x 4) and other less intense aerobics. Dr. Fuhrman is adamant that one should get for optimal brain and neurological health at least 15% and up to 30% of calories from fats from nuts/seeds etc (no oils) (cf. his book The End of Heart Disease). But note that this sort of diet is low in saturated fat. All of the articles I inspected that Tom referred to are really about saturated fats, particularly animal fats. On the other hand, I am deeply suspicious of ketogenic diets of the sort promoted by e.g. Dr. Breseden in his book The End of Alzheimer’s Disease (a friend of the notorious Grain Brain Dr. Perlmutter), even if the diet is vegan (which he says is ok).

    I think in general more attention needs to be paid to the type and source of fats in the diet.




    2
    1. David

      Good post.

      Yes, I understand that saturated fat is problematic in significant quantities. Trans fats appear to be even worse. A scientific panel convened by he zAHA looked at the effects of various fats on cardiovascular risk. It’s not an easy read but well worth looking at if you are interested in this topic.
      http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/early/2017/06/15/CIR.0000000000000510

      Fuhrman’s advice about 15-30% of total calories beng obtained from fat may derive from the work of a scientific panel convened by the World Health Organization which recommended these amounts if I recall correctly. Also if I recall correctly, the official US IOM position is that fat should provide 20-35% of total calories.

      However, I understand that we don’t necessarily have to get all our fats from our diet. Our bodies can manufacture most of them. That is believed to be one of the reasons whole food plant based diets are healthful – bacteria in our gut use fibre to manufacture beneficial short chain fatty acids. Also, the traditional Okinawan and Japanese diets, both associated with healthy longevity, provided fewer than 10% of total calories from fat. And of course both Ornish and Esselstyn have demonstrated reversal of heart disease on diets containing less than 10% fat. A higher fat diet may be beneficial in childhood (and pregnant women) but I am less persuaded that it is optimal for adults who ate the standard Western diet for many years and probably have damaged cardiovascular, endocrine and metabolic systems as a result.




      1
  16. I have recently heard that quinoa should be avoided because it punches holes in the lining of your gut wall. What’s this all about.? Any truth to this?




    0
  17. Quinoa contains saponins on the outer part that can irritate/damage the intestinal lining, but rinsing or processing removes most of them. It also removes any bitter taste, which comes from saponins. “Pre-washed” quinoa is low in saponins. Low saponin quinoa has been developed but I do not know if that is the type typically sold, although I’d guess so (anyone know?). Many foods contain saponins, e.g. beans, garlic, red wine, asparagus. Saponins can also have beneficial effects e.g. cholesterol lowering, anti-cancer, anti-angiogenesis effects. Grains, in general, do not contain high levels, although red wines can. Cf.

    https://www.livestrong.com/article/333022-foods-containing-saponins/

    It sounds to me like you came across of some paleo fear-mongering.




    1
  18. Good to see some slight reduction in emphasis on LDL to oxidised LDL

    Machine learning is the process of taking lots of data about a subject, splitting it into around 75% and 25% and then training the computer on the 75% where it knows the result we want to predict eg did someone get heart disease, and then asking it to make predictions on the unseen 25%. We can then see how good it was at predicting on the fresh 25% but more importantly we can also get the computer model to tell us which variables were deemed the most important out of the variables it was using when ‘learning’ how to predict. This form of machine learning has been used to defeat world chess champions and makes predictions on a huge array of other automated predictions we know take for granted. OK so why the ML lesson ?, well it has been applied to predicting heart disease. Using thousands of patients who initially has no signs and then logging those that developed hear disease 10 years later, the machine learning alogorithm was let loose on the data. If performed better than conventional prediction method thrown at us by our doctors but of real interest was the top 10 risk factors. They used four different types of ML program and in none of them did LDL cholesterol appear in the top 10 risk factors. HDL appeared in two of them and Triglycerides in one of them but LDL appeared in NONE of them.
    You can read the paper here

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0174944




    0
    1. Mark,

      Nice catch on the ML perspective. I looked at the various components use in this study and we have the typical conundrum of what you put in is what you get out. Their set of criteria although somewhat inclusive failed to evaluate the various sub types of cholesterol and exclusively focused on one outcome, CV disease. Would like to see other outcomes as I agree this is the wave of the future of how we will evaluate and allocate treatment and it could be a better predictive measure. The BIG BUT is what information is inputted and how it’s manipulated towards outcomes.

      The move towards what’s known as fractionation (breakdown of the types of cholesterol) and using this as a risk index has been a long term project for 20+ years and from my experience seems to be much more on mark than solely looking at LDL or HDL/Triglycerides. For more info on this see: Berkley Health labs work and Genova diagnostics as some examples.

      As our computational abilities increase I’m certain medicine will need to modify many if not most of our assumptions. Perhaps it really will be “personalized” as the inputs expand. My caveat to this approach. at this time. is how will we evaluate the soft issues (stress/emotional/etc.) and vocational/home exposures when evaluating the patient’s exposome and not allow monetary influence to skew the results.

      Dr. Alan Kadish Health Support volunteer for Dr. Greger http://www.CenterofHealth.com




      0
      1. I agree but it was interesting to see that ML failed to give straight LDL the elevation is gets when you enter your GP’s office. As I understand it your Triglycerides can act as a surrogate marker for APOB so if you cannot afford the advanced lipid tests you would be better taking heed of HDL and Tri’s which back up the idea that LDL subfractions are better markers.




        1
        1. Mark,

          In a 2009 papers looking at lipid panels of 136,000 patients admitted to hospitals with cardiac events, the mean LDL level was 104 mg/dL. Hmm. Over 50% of these patients being admitted with heart attacks, etc. had LDL in the desirable range.

          Better predictors of cardiac risk include ApoB100, Lp(a), triglyceride/HDL ratio, remnant LDL (VLDL)/HDL ratio, markers of inflammation (hsCRP), and a glucose insulin challenge. Among the available markers of risk, LDL achieves a risk ratio of very near unity (1).

          It is very likely that statins have their effect in lowering cardiac events not by lowering LDL as much as their anti-inflammatory activity. The JUPITER study demonstrated that fairly nicely.

          Dave Feldman has a challenge out there for people to find a study demonstrating elevated cardiac risk among people with elevated total cholesterol and/or LDL-C in the setting of low triglycerides and high HDL. It has been many months, and so far nobody has been able to find a study showing this. Interesting.




          0
          1. Here here brilliant post and spot on. I have been asking the same question.
            It is scandalous that the majority of people are going into GP’s and being diagnosed based on LDL levels and then statinated. The big problem is that doctors spend 7 years being taught how not to think. Those that escape the lobotomy net are then in the majority too afraid to speak out for fear of governing body recriminations. This leaves a small few willing to speak out and they generally have the platform pulled from under them. I have a lot of time for this web site, dont get me wrong, but its lopsided obsession with cholesterol is doing know one any good.




            0
            1. I hope I have “escape[d] the lobotomy net!” But you are correct that most doctors don’t know a whole lot about nutrition and metabolism. They have been far too deferential to guidelines and statements from governing bodies within the health and medical community. Drives me absolutely crazy. But I see progress being made, and it is encouraging.




              0
            2. You are right about the situation being scandalous. At my age, if I use the new CVD risk calculator, no matter what value I put in for TC, HDL, TRI, the response is that I should be on a statin. When my GP informed me of this, I laughed and said “that’s ridiculous”. The doc shrugged somewhat sheepishly and we went on to another topic. The organization she belongs to requires the doctors to follow these guidelines, perhaps for insurance purposes. My previous GP, part of the same organization, told me that he could no longer practice medicine as he sees fit, and was clearly depressed by the situation.




              0
  19. I discovered that you can purchase kale powder at our local bulk store. Also a mix of spinach,achai and other healthy stuff blended in. I hope the process of drying and grinding does not affect the goodness of these vegetables. Has a study of this been done? Love these videos




    0
  20. Denis,

    Indeed there are a number of powdered green products on the market. There is some influence on the product as its been exposed to the air, some dried with heat and there were some questions of metal toxins a few years back (2016) in some products. For a list of those that passed muster see: How to Choose the Healthiest Greens.

    Eating the whole product as unprocessed as possible is probably still the best approach. When in a pinch the greens, some in the form of individual packets, might be the next best option.

    Dr. Alan Kadish Health Support volunteer for Dr. Greger http://www.CenterofHealth.com




    0

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This