Ginger for Osteoarthritis

Ginger for Osteoarthritis
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A quarter- to a half-teaspoon a day of powdered ginger can be as pain-relieving as ibuprofen, without the risk of damage to the intestinal lining.

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

If ginger is so effective against migraines, and the pain of menstrual cramps, what about osteoarthritis—an all-too-common disorder that produces “chronic pain and disability?” The first major study, published in 2000, showed no benefit over placebo. But, the study only lasted three weeks.

The next, in 2001, lasted longer—six weeks—and was, by the end, indeed able to show significantly better results than placebo. But, the placebo did so well, reducing pain from like sixties on a scale of 1 to 100, down to like forties, that bringing pain down that extra little bit into the thirties was not especially clinically significant. And so, an editorial in the official journal of the American College of Rheumatology concluded that ginger “should not be recommended…for treatment of arthritis because of the limited efficacy.”

But, since that time, there’s been a few other trials that showed more impressive results—such that ginger is now considered indeed “able to reduce pain and disability in [osteoarthritis].”

But, how well, compared to other treatments? “[S]ince [osteoarthritis] is a chronic disease,” it’s especially important to weigh the risks versus benefit of treatment, and the commonly used anti-inflammatory drugs can carry “serious cardio-vascular and gastro-intestinal risks.”

For example, when researchers stuck cameras down into people with osteoarthritis who were on drugs like ibuprofen, nearly half were found to have major injuries to the lining of their small intestines—seven out of sixteen. Now, you can reduce that risk by taking an additional drug to counteract the side effects of the first drug. Ibuprofen-type drugs reduce our stomach lining’s ability to protect itself from the stomach acid; so, by blocking acid production with another drug, one can reduce the risk.

But, ginger can actually improve stomach lining protection. So, ginger, at the kinds of doses used to treat osteoarthritis, a quarter- to a half-teaspoon a day, can be considered not just neutral on the stomach, but beneficial. So, it can be as pain-relieving as ibuprofen, but without the risk of stomach ulcers.

Okay. But, this sounded a little nutty to me—topical ginger treatment, as in externally applying a ginger-soaked cloth or patch to the affected joint. It was a controlled study—compress versus patch—both showing remarkable and lasting pain relief for osteoarthritis sufferers.

But, what’s missing? Right, a control group—there was no placebo patch. I don’t care if “ginger has been applied [externally] to painful joints for…a thousand years.” The placebo effect has been shown to be remarkably effective in osteoarthritis to provide pain relief. So, until there’s a controlled study on topical ginger, I’m not going to believe it. But there wasn’t such a study, until twenty men stuck ginger slices onto their scrotum.

Men with inflamed testicles applied six to ten paper-thin slices of ginger over the affected testes. And, evidently, the ginger group healed nearly three times faster. Unfortunately, the original source is in Chinese; so, I can’t get further details, as is the only other controlled study on topical ginger I could find. This evidently translates to “evaluation of point plaster therapy with ginger powder in preventing nausea and vomiting [from] chemotherapy.”

We know ginger powder, taken orally, can be “a miracle against [chemo]-induced vomiting;” what about stuffing it into your belly button? The external application of ginger powder to the so-called “point of Shenque,” which is the navel, while the control group got potato powder into their belly button. And, lo and behold, the ginger group evidently had significantly less nausea and vomiting.

Unfortunately, only the abstract is in English; so, I can’t tell how they effectively blinded the patients to the treatment. I mean, presumably, it would be easy to tell whether or not you were in the ginger or placebo group by the smell. But, maybe they controlled for that. Until we know more, I would suggest those who want to try ginger use it in their stomach, rather than on their stomach.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: siala via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

If ginger is so effective against migraines, and the pain of menstrual cramps, what about osteoarthritis—an all-too-common disorder that produces “chronic pain and disability?” The first major study, published in 2000, showed no benefit over placebo. But, the study only lasted three weeks.

The next, in 2001, lasted longer—six weeks—and was, by the end, indeed able to show significantly better results than placebo. But, the placebo did so well, reducing pain from like sixties on a scale of 1 to 100, down to like forties, that bringing pain down that extra little bit into the thirties was not especially clinically significant. And so, an editorial in the official journal of the American College of Rheumatology concluded that ginger “should not be recommended…for treatment of arthritis because of the limited efficacy.”

But, since that time, there’s been a few other trials that showed more impressive results—such that ginger is now considered indeed “able to reduce pain and disability in [osteoarthritis].”

But, how well, compared to other treatments? “[S]ince [osteoarthritis] is a chronic disease,” it’s especially important to weigh the risks versus benefit of treatment, and the commonly used anti-inflammatory drugs can carry “serious cardio-vascular and gastro-intestinal risks.”

For example, when researchers stuck cameras down into people with osteoarthritis who were on drugs like ibuprofen, nearly half were found to have major injuries to the lining of their small intestines—seven out of sixteen. Now, you can reduce that risk by taking an additional drug to counteract the side effects of the first drug. Ibuprofen-type drugs reduce our stomach lining’s ability to protect itself from the stomach acid; so, by blocking acid production with another drug, one can reduce the risk.

But, ginger can actually improve stomach lining protection. So, ginger, at the kinds of doses used to treat osteoarthritis, a quarter- to a half-teaspoon a day, can be considered not just neutral on the stomach, but beneficial. So, it can be as pain-relieving as ibuprofen, but without the risk of stomach ulcers.

Okay. But, this sounded a little nutty to me—topical ginger treatment, as in externally applying a ginger-soaked cloth or patch to the affected joint. It was a controlled study—compress versus patch—both showing remarkable and lasting pain relief for osteoarthritis sufferers.

But, what’s missing? Right, a control group—there was no placebo patch. I don’t care if “ginger has been applied [externally] to painful joints for…a thousand years.” The placebo effect has been shown to be remarkably effective in osteoarthritis to provide pain relief. So, until there’s a controlled study on topical ginger, I’m not going to believe it. But there wasn’t such a study, until twenty men stuck ginger slices onto their scrotum.

Men with inflamed testicles applied six to ten paper-thin slices of ginger over the affected testes. And, evidently, the ginger group healed nearly three times faster. Unfortunately, the original source is in Chinese; so, I can’t get further details, as is the only other controlled study on topical ginger I could find. This evidently translates to “evaluation of point plaster therapy with ginger powder in preventing nausea and vomiting [from] chemotherapy.”

We know ginger powder, taken orally, can be “a miracle against [chemo]-induced vomiting;” what about stuffing it into your belly button? The external application of ginger powder to the so-called “point of Shenque,” which is the navel, while the control group got potato powder into their belly button. And, lo and behold, the ginger group evidently had significantly less nausea and vomiting.

Unfortunately, only the abstract is in English; so, I can’t tell how they effectively blinded the patients to the treatment. I mean, presumably, it would be easy to tell whether or not you were in the ginger or placebo group by the smell. But, maybe they controlled for that. Until we know more, I would suggest those who want to try ginger use it in their stomach, rather than on their stomach.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: siala via Pixabay. Image has been modified.

195 responses to “Ginger for Osteoarthritis

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          1. I had to google that joke.
            And this was before I was born… At least we won’t die cause we all eat plant based!!!! we are the new vampires LOL




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  1. Don’t you know anyone who reads Chinese? I have Chinese friends and I will ask them to help you. If you want help please let me know.




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    1. It’s not just Chinese, it’s technical medical Chinese. I’ll bet there needs to be some higher education involved for Chinese speakers to accurately translate such medical papers into English. So the field of suitable translators narrows somewhat on that supposition.




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  2. Apparently Dr. Klaper states that tea (green, white, black) contains antimicrobial properties that destroy the gut flora, so tea should not be consumed. On this website we are told green tea is great for us, but Dr. Klaper is very respected vegan doctor, and it sort of makes sense what he says.




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    1. Myanmar may be the one land that actively ferments tea, part of their cuisine. So I don’t think the tannins of tea are totally antimicrobial, until someone replies with studies to the contrary.
      Till then, it may be like the caution against citrus peels in compost, because they won’t rot. They will..




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          1. pesta11: Heck, I’ve had orange peels rot just sitting on my counter. Interesting how such ideas can take hold when they are so easy to prove false–even accidentally so.




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        1. Any type of thick, dense material like a heavy peel will take a relatively long time to compost. In warm humid conditions it’ll break down pretty fast. In the cold desiccating air of the mountains it takes forever. Collard, kale, cabbage, and brussels sprout stems take a good year in my compost. Banana and citrus, a month or so.




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      1. A lot of hikers discard their orange peels on the ground thinking they will decompose. At least in the relatively dry mountains of the US west the peels do not break down for years and the animals don’t eat them. Banana peels also take a couple of years to decompose. So pack them out, please.




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    2. & then there’s this: http://undergroundhealthreporter.com/lower-ovarian-cancer-risk-with-tea-and-citrus-fruits/
      Lower Ovarian Cancer Risk with Tea and Citrus Fruits…Two Cups A Day
      The consumption of just 2 cups of black tea
      every day was associated with a whopping 31% reduction in risk of ovarian cancer.
      Black tea also slashes your risk of diabetes.
      A study of elderly people living in the Mediterranean islands showed
      that people who consumed 1-2 cups of black tea
      a day had a 70% lower chance of having or developing Type 2 diabetes…




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      1. dar, while there are numerous benefits to tea drinking, I am asking about one of the
        reported negatives to tea drinking: apparently, according to some, it can disrupt a
        healthy macrobiome. I am not denying the benefits, just exploring the “other side”,
        which, according to some, is big-time relevant. For some people, the good does not
        outweigh the bad. Simply talking about what is so great about tea will not scientifically
        explore an accurate answer as to possible negatives to beneficial gut bacteria due to
        ingestion of tea, for some people.




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        1. Dr. Greger really emphasizes that tea is a green light food in his book. And it is a whole plant food. So it’s got that going for it too. To my simple mind, it doesn’t seem like it could have all these benefits and be killing off your good gut microbes at the same time. If you’re worried about it, just eat an extra serving of beans. The little buggers love fiber.




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        2. Roxy: There’re a few issues with drinking tea (green tea, black tea, etc.; not herbal tea);
          1. Tea contains arsenic.
          2. Tea contains fluorine.
          3. Tea contains histamine.
          These will cause problems only if you drink a lot of it. i haven’t heard anything about tea killing gut bacteria.




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          1. Not picking an argument here . . . . . but apple seeds also contain arsenic.
            There are many situations in nature where a “substance” in nature (or non-nature) can be consumed in small amounts and be non-harmful. Also, a harmful substance in certain small amounts can also be helpful, depending on the situation. These are the same substances that can be harmful in larger amounts. So it isn’t whether or not there is arsenic, fluorine, histamine, or any other chemical in a consumed item. It is what the chemical is and does in potentially larger amounts that is of significance. Apricot kernels, thought to cure cancer at one point, also contain an amount of arsenic. These issues are just exactly what we are all learning about in this time of learning and education of our times.
            We need to be careful about just throwing out inflammatory non-researched information that has less-than-conclusively defined information. This is just exactly why this site was developed.
            It takes many years and decades to learn and understand how to use Nature best for all of us.

            Inflammatory statements without good solid, background and foundation is of no effective use to the public at large.




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            1. Rachael: I agree, which is why I wrote that they would be problematic only if you drink a lot of it. As for “throwing out inflammatory non-reserched information”, it was Dr. Greger, in a video, who warned about arsenic in tea; it was Dr. Greger, in the book, who warned about fluoride in tea. As for histamine, it has been known ( meaning researched information) for a long time that any fermented product is rich in histamine; some tolerate it but some don’t.




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            2. I think you mean cyanide in apple and apricot seeds, bound to sugars. You’d likely have to eat a cup of seeds to be harmed. Flax seeds are another source.
              The tale goes that the Hunzukut people of north Pakistan (often called Hunza) had tasters for their apricot tree seeds; a too-bitter tree was uprooted.




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              1. Aloha Dr. Greger’s volunteer staff!
                I have a question here, not comment.
                I developed Osteoarthritis on my right foot. In what other ways can help improve it’s function and eliminate pain, besides taking Ginger powder?? Your reply is deeply appreciated​! Thank you!




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            3. Rachel,

              Picking an argument is OK in my books …. as long as it is about nutrition, and not personal, it’s OK.
              We need to argue the toss over nutritional matters…. that’s why we’re here.

              Your points are good ones.

              There is Fluoride, Arsenic et. c in our sea salt and in-purified drinking water, plus our fruit and veges … apparently it is normal to ingest in it small amounts
              A few claim benefits for some of the trace minerals.
              We just don’t know for sure at this time.

              My attitude is not to be obsessed over the little things … I just focus on the primary issues, for me, and try to solve them one at a time (sometimes there is no absolute resolution but just a stepped improvement .. better than nothing at all).




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            4. Who regularly eats apple seeds? I would have picked rice for my example, as it is widely consumed, and many don’t realize the arsenic content that is present in many forms of rice.




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    3. There is some truth in it. Tea does have antimicrobial properties.

      However, it is also high in polyphenols which can function as prebiotics. So, I am not sure what the net effect is.

      There was a study, in the Netherlands I think, which showed tea promoted higher gut bacteria diversity which suggests a net beneficial effect. However, this was only relative to sugary drinks so I think the jury is still out.

      I’m on the smartphone so no references but I’d be really interested to know if anybody has seen some definitive study on this matter.




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    4. hi Roxy , if Dr Klapper provided a source for that statement maybe the knowledgeable contributors of this site could take a look at it for you. In the meantime , I found this source saying that green tea does NOT harm gut microbiota. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27054321 In this study they used powdered green tea (matcha?) for three months. Dr Greger has listed many sources under each green tea video, so there’s lots to consider. All the best,




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      1. Susan,

        I gave this paper a heavy weighting and downloaded the free PDF for ongoing perusal.
        I like the fact that it is a controlled trial, has a good introduction, comes out of a Netherlands uni and cites other studies that are relevant to our discussion .

        A quick flick through the study does raise a few minor minus points for me:

        – the participants were not randomly selected (they volunteered) and were heavily filtered;

        – the ‘Green Tea’ was a proprietary isolate that contained caffeine and fillers;

        – like all nutritional clinical trials they couldn’t lock people up and had to rely on participants avoiding caffeine, taking 3×3 capsules per day (in between meals?) and keeping a food diary which they then had to replicate as a their standard diet (yikes!)

        Still, a good find and worthy of closer analysis.

        Given that am not a scientist/mathematician my eyes glaze over when I see the data analysis required statistical software and Anova modelling (yikes!) so I might not do it.




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    5. Long-Term Green Tea Supplementation Does Not Change the Human Gut Microbiota.

      Janssens PL, Penders J, Hursel R, Budding AE, Savelkoul PH, Westerterp-Plantenga MS.

      PLoS One. 2016 Apr 7;11(4):e0153134. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0153134.

      Hi Roxy, on a PubMed search of tea and gut flora, this is the only article I found for humans. So I don’t feel I have enough information to comment on your specific question….The article is free if you want to access it yourself. Hope that is helpful (but I suspect it may not be…..)




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        1. Hi Harriet,

          That’s very observant of you.

          IMO that is the million dollar question, along with, “Would our health be better, off or worse off, if we regularly took a natural antibiotic and it did wend it’s way down to the large intestine?”.
          Despite the fact that there are some things about the ‘green tea’ study not to like I can’t ignore it, especially when it is the only one we have and it does suggest that the catechins didn’t make it or weren’t strong enough to have an effect or if they did make it, in strength, they had no effect on the microbiome.
          I have these questions at the top of my worksheet as it is personally relevant.
          I don’t know yet if science will provide any further answers at this time.

          Previously, in this sub-discussion, I referred to Garlic as a broad spectrum antibiotic but that is incorrect. On balance it should more properly be called a broad spectrum anti-pathogen.
          Just speculating, and, by comparison to a pharmaceutical antibiotic, if garlic does make it to the large intestine, and supress a wide range of bacteria, it will possibly also supress a wide range of pathogens, whereas the former will not? If that is so the natural antibiotics may be an antibiotic that does not have the antibiotic after effect of gut dysbiosis (an overgrowth of Candida).

          I’m looking at this from both sides:

          – from a reductionist (scientific) perspective we need to consider all of the bioactive compounds in, say, garlic, isolate them and run multiple controlled trials;

          – in the absence of the above I am looking for any relevant clues that science already provides that might hint at an answer;

          – another objective approach,h that might provide some hints, is to look at the chemical structure of the bioactive compounds, say, garlic/allicin, and estimate whether or not it is it likely to survive the stomach followed by the alkaline duodenum followed by the small intestine and it’s enzymes

          – holistically, the synergy of the compounds might be more important than the individual parts and so any controlled, say, garlic trial that records overall health benefits might, by correlation, imply a healthier gut.

          I accept that science can not, or will not, answer all of these questions in my lifetime so I have to look to cultural and personal anecdotes, plus rely on personal trial and error to get some clues.

          Traditionally the forbears of people of European descent (the Mediterranean diet?) regularly ate fresh garlic.
          There is also anecdotal evidence of people with gut disorders regularly eating garlic and claiming relief from Candida overgrowth.

          I have taken garlic oil capsules several times a day, when I have a winter cold, to prevent or cure the chest infection that generally goes with that.
          I’m satisfied that this works therefore the garlic oil (Allium sativum 1mg capsules equivalent to fresh bulb 3g taken as 3×3 capsules per day with meals).
          So, I believe (but don’t know) that the oil is absorbed, most likely in the small intestine but what I don’t know is whether or not any passes to the large intestine and if so how much and what effect does it have there?

          Note that I am using Garlic as the baseline for my ‘research’ as it is the strongest (?) natural antibiotic and also the most well known so it is likely to be the most researched, hypothetically.
          I’ll take info on anything else though, if it’s out there.




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          1. “This includes SIBO which is exacerbated by high starch/high sugar/low fibre diets;”

            Rada, you mention that sibo gets worse from high starch low fiber diet. This confuses me…..wouldn’t high starch imply high fiber? Most starchy plants are high in fiber, right?

            I like beans. Not sure if they’re a good thing for me, someone with more of a fungal/yeast issue and less bacterial.

            I like garlic but my concern is that it will wipe out good bacteria, and then fungi can take over, yeast take over. Not good for my gut. Just my theory.




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            1. Roxy,

              Just a reminder that I’m not a health professional, or qualified in any academic discipline …. happy to brainstorm and share opinions with you to help grow our knowledge.

              Let’s not be casual with your health.
              My comment on SIBO was casual and only intended to illustrate my provisional hypothesis that our small intestine should have a low pathogen count and that ‘pathogen overgrowth’ can come from either end, backwards by pathogens traversing up the GI from the large intestine to the small, or from a pathogen overload due to our modern day food production (our high consumption of pathogens ends up in the stomach and then the SI, possibly as dead bacteria/LPS).
              We could talk about SIBO but first off we would be better of reading the info that is readily available.
              I think that would be sufficient for us as last time I looked SIBO was quite well documented and understood.
              For SIBO you have to look at all aspects of digestion (chewing food, sufficient acid, enzymes, lactose/monosaccharide intolerance et. c)

              I meant highly refined starches and sugars.
              Sorry for the lack of clarity on that point.
              As I understand it they will encourage pathogen growth in the small intestine.
              My temporary hypothesis is that they are more of a problem there, then the large intestine, because that is where most of the nutrient absorbtion is being done and where endotoxins et. c can get through the gut lining or piggy back across with other nutrients.

              Re: beans and yeast overgrowth

              I think it is likely that yeast fungi will favour a high carb diet.
              Best you talk to an empathetic health professional (Dr and or Nutritionist … whoever is available in your area) … ask about the above and particularly the nutritional suitability of an AIP diet. If it is nutritionally adequate you might like to try it for a while and see if it helps.
              If you are a vegetarian talk to them about a vege low carb diet, if there is one (nuts are good).

              All of my discussion with you has been circumambulating the topic of pathogen/yeast/fungal diet related issues, especially in the small intestine, and the dietary contributors.

              Note that my current diet is a hybrid of AIP – been on it 6 months – don’t need to stay there but I kept going for a while because I am learning so much about my body.
              I’m not anti-vegetarian if followers can make it work for them (IMO it is just a lot harder to stay on track than,say, Paleo)

              Re: garlic

              I understand your concern.
              It is my concern also.
              I tried it out with good results – I took fresh garlic (shaved into olive oil to preserve it and allow the garlic oil to eke into the olive oil) – pour 1-2 tspn onto a coleslaw salad – lovely.
              You have to make that call for yourself or in discussion with your health pro.
              My attitude was it cant do that much damage over a short trial.
              I took it lunch and tea for three days then stopped.
              That was a month ago.
              Actually prepped the garlic oil this morning for another go.
              The only thing I didn’t like was that it is a bit hot in the tummy and leaves garlic breath.
              At the moment I look on it as medicine so I don’t stay on it but I might after I do some more reading – I just want to know a bit more first.
              An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure – I’m implementing a low pathogen diet and an anti-candida diet – cut it off at the roots.




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            2. Roxy,

              Here is a compendium of Ray Peat’s quotes about bacterial endotoxins:

              http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/09/28/ray-peat-phd-on-the-benefits-of-the-raw-carrot/

              He talks about the distinction between the large and small intestine and the need for a ‘hygienic’ small intestine.
              I eat the carrot salad before bed (stomach and SI digestion is over for the day and it gets a cleanout with grated carrot. He says it is a germicidal and safe to take on a daily basis.

              “Polysaccharides and oligosaccharides include many kinds of molecules that no human enzyme can break down, so they necessarily aren’t broken down for absorption until they encounter bacterial or fungal enzymes. In a well maintained digestive system, those organisms will live almost exclusively in the large intestine, leaving the length of the small intestine for the absorption of monosaccharides without fermentation. When digestive secretions are inadequate, and peristalsis is sluggish, bacteria and fungi can invade the small intestine, interfering with digestion and causing inflammation and toxic effects. Lactose malabsorption has been corrected just by correcting a deficiency of thyroid or progesterone…Sometimes having a daily carrot salad (grated, with salt, olive oil, and a few drops of vinegar) will stimulate (and disinfect) the small intestine enough to prevent fermentation.”




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            3. Roxy,

              Another thing I do is add salt to my meals (I use sea salt with a calculated amount of kelp to achieve the RDI of Iodine).
              Some time ago I kept a log of my salt intake and I was shocked to find I was dangerously low compared to the RDI.
              I did some reading on the anatomy of the stomach and the biochemistry of stomach acid.
              I found that there is no acid gland/duct that injects acid into the stomach when it is needed.
              What actually happens is that protons diffuse into the stomach.
              In order for the protons to form Hydrochloric Acid Chlorine would have to be present.
              I assumed that Na+Cl- (salt) is beneficial for making strong stomach acid and that most likely the protons are exchanged with the Sodium anion, which diffuses into our blood stream causing the well known alkaline flush.
              Surprisingly I found it hard to get any good information on this subject and I have never seen anyone else ever mention this.
              Our stomach acid needs to be strong to digest our food and kill pathogens.
              Undigested food can cause SIBO.




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              1. Well said on both posts. Thanks. One of the things I should consider….constipation, sometimes for a good amount of days/week could also cause some sort of fungal issue in intestines, no? Some sort of backup that throws off the small and large intestine, bacteria from large intestine backing up into small, if too much constipation in lower bowel, or maybe all the food sits in the small intestine for too long. Interesting. Your thoughts?




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                1. Roxy,

                  Bowel movement is fundamental, like night and day.
                  If the fundamentals are failing something basic is wrong.
                  I have no experience with the more unusual digestive issues where constipation is a common factor.
                  I only have experience with ‘everyday’ food related constipation and I have only had an issue in recent time because of specific foods (grain supermarket bread obviously made using plasticizer or some other wild additive, nuts, especially coconut – I assume it is the inulin, commercial gluten free crackers).
                  If you don’t have any serious digestive issues (Crohns et.c) and you have discussed it with your Dr, and don’t believe there is a medical reason why you aren’t passing regular motions, then I would keep a food log and try to find out which of the foods is offending.
                  Usually food transits 2-3 days so constipating food is likely to have been eaten more than 2-3 days ago.
                  If so there will be so many days without a motion at all – it can be up to 5-6 days if the stool is very ahrd.
                  I had trouble with shredded coconut – I couldn’t believe the trouble from such a small amount (2 tablespoons rolls into a ball like concrete). I had to pick it out tiny piece by tiny piece using my little finger. Also there is usually some wet faeces following the dry stool so repeated pushing back can lubricate the dry ball and get it moving – its you or it so no time to be delicate (cut the finger nail and keep some water in the toilet to wash your finger while you sit and wait – there is an art to it – practice makes perfect).

                  Dr Peat was a research scientist and university lecturer.
                  At some stage, in one of those capacities, he worked alongside M.D’s and gained a lot of clinical experience.
                  IMO his advice on carrots is likely to be correct (daily carrot salad prepared as per instructions in the article I gave you takes care of stools. I like it as the last snack of the day (read the Peat article carefully a few times – it is all in there).

                  I pass a least one soft motion, like clockwork everyday – coconut oil helps. It’s the fruit breakfast (== papaya with t1 tablespoon/25ml coco oil in 100 ml of raw cashew nuts blend to a cream with water) and cabbage salads.
                  Look to eat other foods known to speed motions.

                  Yes, slow transit of food is an issue for increasing ingestion of toxins from bacteria in the colon.
                  Get it moving naturally.

                  Based on your personality type you need a health buddy – a professional would be good.

                  Shop around until you find one you are harmonious with and therefore trust.
                  If you already have one it appears you are not compatible with them or they are not competent cause this is basic and any decent professional should be able to help you.




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                2. Roxy,

                  If you want to target Candida, and not disturb gut bacteria, then Nystatin will do that.
                  Natural antifungals can do the job but they might also effect bacteria.
                  After you finish taking an antifungal course gut equilibrium will re-establish, according to your diet, and the Candida will return.
                  There is no way around it. Sooner or later you have to go on an anti-Candida diet.

                  I only talked about those things where I have a point of difference with the majority view on Candida.

                  There is a wealth of info on the net for Candida – Amazon books or sites like this.

                  https://www.thecandidadiet.com/foodstoeat.htm

                  I stress that if you do not have an evidence based diagnosis for Candida then you don’t have it.




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                3. Roxy,

                  I can’t give you definitive answers because this is all new to me.
                  Six months ago I was diagnosed (stool analysis) with mild Leaky Gut (LG) with mild Candida overgrowth (not Candida Albicans species, some other unknown species).
                  I took a course of Nystatin to target the fungi and leave the gut bacteria alone.
                  I was studying LG, in depth, but soon after I finished the Nystatin course I felt that the Candida came back, to some extent, despite the fact I was on a low grain, no legume and low fruit diet.
                  I am coming around to the fact that Leaky Gut and Candida overgrowth are synonymous.
                  Six months ago I thought of both as being quackery, or close to it.

                  Now I have to start all over again and become a quasi-expert in Candida.
                  It is slow going because I have to test one food at a time (2 weeks per single food item).

                  Here is the basis of what I have found so far:

                  – dietary ideology is irrelevant to me now. I’m on a low carb, high fat, high protein diet, for the long term, whether I like it or not;

                  – I will never 100% understand the root causes. I just want to find pragmatic protocols that work for me with the least amount of effort;

                  – I have tried meat/fish/egg + low starch veges + low sugar fresh fruits with 100% no dairy and no legumes/grain/added sugar.
                  On this diet the Candida can still re-establish therefore fruit sugar has to be limited or cut out altogether;

                  – some fruits appear to be less conducive to promoting Candida than others e.g. oranges;

                  – garlic does knock Candida flat;

                  – salt is a natural antiseptic but it isn’t strong enough to knock it flat;

                  – copious intake of probiotic capsules (various brands) does not appear to help (IMO if we take them we should take enteric coated capsules only);

                  – high fibre intake (supplements and food) is not enough to win the battle either.

                  Overall it appears that access to ‘sugar’ over-rides all suppressive foods/fibres/antifungals in the long run and while there is sugar present Candida will be present, in direct proportion.
                  It appears to have a very fast life-cycle, and hence outgrows bacteria, and also has a strong toxic effect relative to a short growth spurt e.g. last night my wife slipped a teaspoon of table sugar into our meal.
                  This morning I had a strong nauseous feeling that I don’t normally have.
                  As an arthritic I feel that the toxic surges, that accompany the waxing and waning of Candida, correlates to the severity of body pain (for a long time I had no explanation for the fact that joint pain can come and go rapidly).

                  I anticipate that Candida will quickly become resistant to any anti-fungal and so it seems likely that I will have to remain on a severely Carb restricted diet for the rest of my life and use antifungals sparingly to get me through any periods where I digress from the diet for whatever reason e.g. Christmas dinner.
                  It also seems likely that I will need to learn a lot about the natural antifungals and rotate them continuously.

                  If you keep this channel open I will post an update, or two, if I find out anything in addition to what is available in the Candida books et. c.




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                  1. have you considered fasting? I am not suggesting it, just wondering if you’ve tried it. Others claim success.
                    They then go back to eating carbs…..beans, grains, fruits, veggies, with no issues.




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                    1. No, I hadn’t thought of that.
                      Thanks for the tip. I will do some reading and thinking on that ‘treatment’
                      I have fasted years ago a few times – some long ones.
                      I have some reservations on it these days.
                      Once the Glycogen stores are used up the body turns to other reserves and according to Peat one of the glands is susceptible to damage (don’t recall which one).




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                    2. Roxy,

                      Dr Ray Peat is a scientist who takes a more holistic, rather than a reductionist, view of nutrition so he considers the effect of nutritional inputs from the point of view of the effect on the whole (the hormonal system being the holistic regulator of our health).
                      He considers that stress hormones have a negative impact on our health, and that fasting places additional stress on the body, so fasting to cure any disease might be counter-productive.
                      He goes as far as saying we should break-fast, in the morning, a.s.a.p.

                      I’m not likely to fast, partly because of his recommendations, but mainly because I believe I will solve my nutritional/health riddle without the need to go to that extreme.

                      I’m transitioning from a low carb, high fat, high protein diet, where fruits were the carbs at approx. 20% of my calorific intake (plus some additional carbs from vege and nuts) to something else.

                      So far, I have just cut out the fruit (0%) and I am eating my nut snacks (2×100-150 ml per day) eaten with vege sticks (celery or carrot et. c) instead of fruit.
                      I have also used the USDA database nutrient filter to sort nuts by low total starch+ sugar and I am mainly only eating those nuts.

                      Nuts with less than 5g non-fibre carbs per 100g serve:

                      flaxseed 1.6 g
                      coconut milk 3.3
                      pecans 4.26
                      brazil 4.24
                      coconut cream 4.45
                      macadamia 5.22

                      In the next band is coconut meat, hazelnuts, walnuts, chia seeds all at approx. 7g/100g or less.

                      Note that my carbs as a % of cals will go down, unless I eat more nuts and less meat/fish/eggs.
                      Also, nuts have high energy and high fibre content.
                      I’m starting with small amounts, eaten with salad veges, to make sure they don’t cause constipation.
                      I prefer sat fat to PUFA’s so I am likely to favour coconut milk and the nuts, with the lowest PUFA’s, from the above list.

                      Later I am going to swap out the meat for bean sprouts, for a trial, but before I can do that I have to learn how to sanitise seeds (Hydrogen peroxide is used commercially but I want to try washing them with a natural anti-pathogen before sprouting).
                      I am also going to dry starting the soak in boiling water to help disinfect them ….. some seeds still sprout even if soaked in boiling water.




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                    3. hulled hemp seeds 4.7g/100g and pumpkin squash seeds 4.7 are also amongst the lowest carb nuts.
                      Cashews have gone to my red foodzone :-(




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                    4. Roxy,

                      I am using an elimination style diet to test the following tentative hypothesis:

                      1) anthropology and dietary evolution

                      – claims that our evolution supports either a vegetarian, or hunter-gatherer diet, are romanticised. Beyond the fact that we have evolved from adaptive omnivores we can’t reach any definite conclusions (historically available food types and biological records of our ancestors have disappeared);

                      – I don’t know if what I am finding out applies to some, or many others. Several generations ago one of my ancestors is linked to Africa and I may well have preserved some ancient genetic tendencies.
                      Whilst a few hundred generations have passed, since our chimp days, that may not have been long enough to allow some of us full adaption to a ‘European’ diet. Some adaption has occurred (but not necessarily in all of us) e.g. lactose tolerance.
                      I might be different and not al all adapted to modern diets;

                      – the discovery of fire, and cooking, did free us from exposure to some pathogens (theoretically) and make some nutrients more available, but it also might have lost some nutrients and vitality.

                      – the modern world is far removed from the past. IMO we have a massive issue with the age of our ‘fresh’ food and the processing of most available foods. I don’t believe we will reverse this trend. It is likely to continue and the majority of people will use pills and eat synthetic food as a ‘work around’.

                      2) food science

                      – the original Leukocytosis experimental data appears, at first glance, to be hard to come by (why?)
                      It seems someone has purchased the rights to it and has it under wraps (I have to check on that one).
                      As I understand it the original experiments where conducted in Switzerland, by a qualified M.D and were quite simple science. It appears to have been a rigorous study (blood samples drawn and observed for white blood count changes et. c).
                      I can’t imagine they got it wrong (I have to check on that one).

                      3) my health

                      My health is quite good.
                      I’m returning to my Dr for a second follow up Leaky Gut test .
                      Some mild persistent nausea has returned (it was absent while I was on Nystatin).
                      I assume the Candida has re-established but it could be something else (another possible explanation is bacterial overgrowth due to indigested protein == meat?).
                      I’m going to discuss this issue with my doc.

                      4) my diet

                      – based on my view that Leukocytosis (LC) may well be correct (it is as likely as any other theory I have read about) I am proceeding ‘as if’ it is correct and transitioning to a low Leukocytoxic diet (I assume it would be quite simple to repeat the LC experiments or use a modern day proxy (cytokine levels in the blood and faeces are of interest to me …. cytokines in the faeces might indicate the level of inflammation in the GI tract).
                      Chronic GI inflammation may well be behind ‘metabolic’ syndrome, and other common diseases and possibly it is endemic in the general population (Leaky Gut might actually be due to LC more than wheat although in vitro wheat is a risk factor for non-celiacs).

                      That means:

                      – raw fish (have to freeze at sub-zero temp for 7 days).
                      I assume freezing will not adversely effect LC (looking to test that scientifically or with a diet trial).
                      Raw salmon appeals but it’s going to get harder to obtain Mercury free fish due to increasing demand/over fishing;
                      – raw nuts and vege salads with occasional fresh fruit (fruit to be selected);

                      – fruit might be selected for high Vit C (I’m guessing Vit C is an anti-pathogen);

                      – possibly raw sweet corn (it does have some starch and sugar but holistic effect might be different to the ‘nutritional’ profile;

                      – possibly sprouts (subject to solving production issues and diet trials).

                      – I might drop the fish so that would leave me as basically a nut/vegetable eater in which case I would have a need for some supplementation;

                      – supplementation is against LC principles.

                      Already (compared to the future, where population growth continues exponentially) I am experiencing difficulty with obtaining some foods e.g. fresh meat/fish and uncontaminated Salmon.
                      So, both Leukocytosis, and availability, are forcing me towards a sort of mono-diet (not much variation – just keep eating the same things over and over).
                      This might actually be a good thing (I think it is possible that eating a large range of food types/combinations) is actually not good for us).

                      I have retained my view that our modern diet is assaulting our immune system with pathogens).
                      Yoghurt and ferments et. c are ruled out to avoid the live pathogens (they are probably not on the LC diet list either).

                      The length of our food chain, with much of the food processed without full disclosure, is the reason I consider myself to be ‘eating defensively’ == avoiding man-made risks as far as possible (I don’t think full avoidance is possible without a limited food range).

                      Paleo is very close to a Candida diet but it is an anti Leukocytosis diet.

                      I don’t think fasting will beat Candida as I think it generates by spores that can survive a drought.
                      Anyway, if it does beat it the next thing you eat will have some fungi on it and it’s back again (only an anti-fungal diet can beat it?)
                      Pathogens love death and decay – cleaning it up is it’s job.

                      5) microbiome

                      I agree with Peat that the microbiome is 50/50 beneficial and harmful.
                      I might end up supressing it permanently with, say, garlic.
                      It is possible that holistically garlic will modify the microbiome in a good way.
                      I won’t know unless I try it and follow up with another CDSA stool test.
                      Even then my Dr’s interpretation of the stool analysis might be different to mine – don’t think he has read Ray Peat :-)
                      So, probably I will never get an answer to that one but I’m not writing a thesis so if I feel better on garlic then I’m taking it as long as it lasts.




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                    5. do you think a simple 3 ounces week of raw tuna is really that harmful as far as toxins? It seems like such a small amount of fish, even with the mercury content. And tuna has is not known for parasites.
                      Complete form of B12, vitamin D, protein, and omega 3’s all in one package.

                      I think even frozen wild salmon might be bad, as yes, freezing kills parasites but the decaying/dead parasites can still cause bodily harm in other ways. Everyone bashes tuna but we’re talking about small amounts here, such as many people from Japan are well known for consuming.




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                    6. Roxy,

                      No, I don’t think that amount would be an issue.
                      Lots of vege salad and high nutrient intake is likely to mitigate heavy metals and other stuff.
                      I think risks from Mercury et. c in food is probably much lower than from, say, dental amalgams and also likely to be much higher in processed foods or farmed fish.
                      That’s my opinion – I will check the science at some stage and let you know if I find any definite reasin not to eat it.
                      I agree a small amount of raw fish will solve a lot of hassle with supps which also bring their own risk.
                      Tuna seems to be the premium raw fish, probably cos it is a dry fish.
                      I understand the Japanese take precautions before eating it raw (I’ll have to check on that one).
                      The data shows reported incidents from Parasites in fish are not that high per head of population and actual health effects from fish parasites are not off the Richter scale – fear magnifies the risk out of proportion (for incidents, exposure levels and outcomes).




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                    7. Roxy,

                      O.K I will have a look at them.
                      What is the issue with radiation and the source of it … do you mean Pacific caught fish that have picked up radiation from Fukishima?

                      I already have some wild caught salmon (Canadian) ready to go.
                      I just need to deep freeze and then eat.
                      I doubt any dead parasites will be an issue when digested.
                      My naïve view is that we know life is suspended in very cold conditions so thawing out frozen fish is the nearest I will get to fresh raw fish.

                      I had a chat to my produce store owner. She is very passionate about health foods and has been living it for a long time. I live in regional Australia …. she said the Tuna sold here is local so it is caught in different waters to the Tuna sold in the Northern Hemisphere.

                      It’s very hot here so that is one of the issues with sprouts. She said it ferments when it is being soaked so for hot climates and small seeds I have to reduce the soak time. Also a cloth bag for sprouting will help keep the fermentation down compared to a glass jar. Easier to sterilise the bag between batched too.
                      Also, the sprout time comes down in the heat. I have to eat Mung Bean after 2-3 days and not 4-8 like in colder climates.

                      Re: Kefir et. c

                      She thinks the ferments are great but she did say that some commercial varieties, including branded organics, are not genuine so if I try them again it will only be home-made versions.
                      My Dr said no gluten, no dairy and low sugar for me forever anyway.




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            4. I am late on this, Roxy, but in the ’90s my ENT (in a developing country)used a scope. I observed that he pulled it out of the carrying case and put it up my nose. When he was done, he pulled a Kleenex a wiped it before returning it to the case. I about died. Sure enough, a few days later I had BIG troubles. I changed ENTs. That one threw away the results of the culture I had insisted on (“I don’t believe it!”) and ordered an antibiotic. Two days later I was in terrible sinus pain with really gross bloody drainage. I threw out the drugs and began taking garlic with parsley oil capsules – 2 caps with each meal. I improved greatly. Two years later I was in the US and finally saw another ENT. I had both bacterial and fungal infections. He was amazed that I had not been to another doctor and apparently “controlled” both the fungus and the bacteria with the garlic caps. I have no doubt about it. When I am congested and have no caps I make a garlic-parsley-peanut butter mix and spread it in a split banana for a “sandwich”.




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          2. Wondering how you feel about garlic and onion as far as reactions…..they both make me exhausted and foggy. Would this indicate bacterial overload or fungal/yeast, in your opinion. Some folks say garlic and onion kill overgrowth of yeast, but others say they kill bad bacteria as well. Hmmm….how to know which it is doing in me. But it is dramatic….they garlic onions both exhaust me a day later. Make me depressed too.




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            1. Roxy,

              I’ll get back to you on garlic next time I try it.
              Sounds like it might be an allergen for you so avoid it.
              There are other natural anti-pathogens and anti-yeasts.

              If you have been diagnosed with fungal overgrowth then you should see the doc about Nystatin (worked well for me – no side effects) thereafter an anti Candida diet will control it without the need for garlic.
              If you haven’t been diagnosed then get a stool-test done.

              Slow and steady wins the race.
              Cleanout the fungus.
              Get your safezone/ greenzone diet in place and things should take care of themselves.
              Once you know what your food safezone is add 1 new food per 2 weeks (1 week trial and 1 week washout if it’s no good).
              Almost anything can be an allergen on an individual basis.
              There can be more than one issue at the same time.

              I like:

              – chewing the food laboriously;

              – avoid all legumes grains until the fungus settles down;

              – salt with every meal (even the fruit breakfast – after breakfast I dissolve a pinch in a sip of water and drink it followed by sip of fresh water. For savoury meals I take m ore unless the food is salted). Salt in veges does not count. It has to be added (free) salt. I’m in a hot place and take 2g of salt in winter and 5g in summer plus what’s in my food but I don’t eat any salt laden processed foods.

              – grated carrot snack after tea (with coconut oil and or balsamic vinegar if they are not allergens for you).

              Coconut oil is an allergen for some people.

              Potatoes or sweet potatoes might be a better starch (energy source) for you especially once stabilised.




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            2. Roxy,

              Sorry, my previous answer on garlic wasn’t spot on (mis-read your question).

              When you take garlic, or any anti-pathogen, you can experience die-off effects (nauseous, headaches et. c).
              There is no way to know if it is caused by bacterial die-off or fungus die-off …. fungus is more likely.
              It is a difficult moment because the individual has to decide to keep going, to get better, or to stop in case it makes them worse. It’s a personal decision.
              That’s where the diagnosis comes in and gives you confidence … if you are diagnosed you a course of Nystatin).

              It’s possible Garlic is an allergen for you but symptoms might vary to the symptoms of die-off.
              If someone needs to take Garlic as an anti-yeast medicine then they are probably better to do it on days they don’t have to work.
              As I said elsewhere, it isn’t absolutely necessary – diet is the slow and sure method.
              I was in a hurry so I took the Nystatin (zero side effects for me).
              Since then I have used diet and foods to target Candida and promote bacteria – that approach is working for me.

              Too much fruit sugar might encourage Candida but I have to eat something and without fruit I crave sugar (chocolate et. c) so I eat some fruit. I love oranges 1-2 per day – they don’t seem to promote pathogens.
              Plus fruit is good for constipation.




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    6. Roxy,

      RE: “tea is an anti-microbial”.

      Do you have any sources?
      I am very interested in this subject.
      I have a watch over vinegar and honey containing GMO as possibly being adverse for gut health (I have this on hold for future reading) e.g. honey from certain plant species is a known strong anti-microbial so as a person under treatment for Leaky Gut should I be taking honey (assuming I want bacteria to flourish and fungus to be suppressed?)




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      1. Thanks Tom,

        That gave me a good leg-up (I used the similar topics link to jump to some research that was very relevant for me … more on that in my reply to Roxy).




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    7. Roxy,

      To an Intuitive some people and some things shine.
      I’m like a Bowerbird who collects shiny things :-)

      Great
      I flagged this some time ago so I’ve brought it forward a little cos of the current interest.
      It’s a massive subject….. I will just have to ‘dance across the waves’ and break it into a few posts, maybe.

      There is some consensus, in the sources that I have looked at, that antibiotics is a significant risk factor for Leaky Gut (LG).
      One of the authors I referenced is of the opinion that antibiotics is the primary risk factor (Dr Jake Paul Fratkin/complementary medicine?) (1)
      Obviously animal products are the main source of antibiotics in our diets.
      I didn’t stick around to argue and switched up to eating meat only if was labelled “antibiotic free” (I was already oof the dairy ….. Dr’s orders).
      There is a secondary source of dietary antibiotics but that is claimed to have low residue in our food i.e. some plants (2)

      Sometime after that my thoughts started turning to the ‘natural antibiotics’ that we commonly eat in our foods.
      Looking at ‘health’ through the prism of a LG then if it is desirable to promote bacterial growth and supress fungal growth should we be eating the natural antibiotics at all, if so which ones and in what amounts.

      I think it is only fair to tell you that I am starting to invert completely relative to the mainstream view as I am warming to the idea that we are assaulting our Microbiome on a daily basis with antibiotics, food additives, supplements, juicing, processed foods, anti-foods, poor food combinations, excessive dietary variety and constant switching around et. c

      If we perform a search, for ‘natural antibiotics’ or plant antibiotics’, we come up with things like garlic, honey, mushrooms. coconut oil, rosemary, ginger, peppermint and so on.
      Tea and Coffee are two that I already had on my watch-list and not just for the antibacterial possibilities.
      I also think that Coffee is getting off very lightly (perhaps that is because a lot of people are like me and like it that much that we don’t want to give it up no matter what). Something isn’t quite what it seems with coffee and I don’t buy the idea that it is a medicine.
      I do have concerns about the long term memory effects et. c of coffee despite the studies claim it is beneficial for Dementia, or whatever, but that is another story.
      I have started to take some notice of the effect of coffee on my body, especially the stomach and gut.
      So far my results are inconclusive, although if anything I am against it, so I am going to continue.
      I am using an elimination diet as a tool to test the acceptability of re-introduced foods to my gut.
      It is a tedious process as it takes a week to test one thing and then a week to wash that out before going on to the next.
      In the interim I have to hold myself in an artificially pure state (nutritionally speaking) all in the interests of ‘science’ :-)

      Speaking of which … over to the science.

      As soon as we turn to the science for some answers on this one we encounter some recurring themes.

      One of the challenges confronting us is that science doesn’t always answer the questions we want answered and when it does sometimes it is just plain old confusing with some of the studies conflicting with each other. On top of that, as already mentioned, it is difficult to isolate bioactive substances, extracts might not behave in the same way as the functional food/herbs and while ginger might ‘cure’ some ailments it might worsen others.
      On top of that some, if not all of the natural antibiotics, contain several compounds that are classed as ‘antibiotics, whilst some carry the claim that they are both antibacterial and antiviral.
      We also have to consider individual variance and synergy (3)

      “Due to their very complex nature, medicinal herbs almost never work in one single way (e.g. by killing bacteria);rather they work to cleanse the blood, strengthen the immune system, tone the mucous membranes and improve the function of particular organ systems.(4)

      From the list of potential ‘antibiotic plants’ Garlic is the most well known, and reputed to be the strongest, as well as being the one likely to have the most research available to us but as I move to separate the science into another, or perhaps several posts, I might reference some of the others pr perhaps favour one of the others (we can always dig in somewhere else if there is interest or perhaps others will help us out to continue on).

      (1) http://drjakefratkin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Understanding-Leaky-Gut-Syndrome.pdf
      UNDERSTANDING LEAKY GUT SYNDROME Jake Paul Fratkin, OMD, L.Ac.

      (2) https://www.apsnet.org/publications/apsnetfeatures/Pages/AntibioticsForPlants.aspx
      Antibiotics for Plant Diseases Control: Silver Bullets or Rusty Sabers?
      Patricia McManus
      University of Madison-Wisconsin

      (3) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24772182
      Synergetic antimicrobial effects of mixtures of ethiopian honeys and ginger powder extracts on standard and resistant clinical bacteria isolates.
      Ewnetu Y1, Lemma W2, Birhane N1.

      (4) http://happyherbcompany.com/natural-alternatives-antibiotics




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    8. Roxy,

      I’m not knowledgeable on the subject of pharmaceuticals but as I understand it a good percentage of them are derived from plants, or at least are plant compound analogues.
      In the ‘health movement’ there is a tendency to believe that natural is better but using ‘natural’ products as a treatment for any disease brings with it uncertainty about dose, uncertainty about outcomes for the majority of people, if there are no clinical trials and lack of specificity i.e. multiple medicinally active compounds in one plant might bring about multiple outcomes.
      Not to forget about potential conflict with medications.

      Using Garlic as an example; it contains several pharmacological compounds.

      “Research in recent decades has shown widespread pharmacological effects of A. sativum and its organosulfur compounds especially Allicin. Studies carried out on the chemical composition of the plant show that the most important constituents of this plant are organosulfur compounds such as allicin, diallyl disulphide, S-allylcysteine, and diallyl trisulfide. Allicin represents one of the most studied among these naturally occurring compounds. In addition to A. sativum, these compounds are also present in A. hirtifolium (shallot) and have been used to treat various diseases.” (1)

      Some of the available science focuses on the antimicrobial properties of the Garlic isolates (2)(3) whilst overall there is more scientific interest in controlling pathogenic bacteria, especially ‘drug’ resistant pathogens, than there is on the effects, or side effects, of natural antimicrobials on beneficial bacteria (4).

      “Natural spices of garlic and ginger possess effective anti-bacterial activity against multi-drug clinical pathogens and can be used for prevention of drug resistant microbial diseases and further evaluation is necessary”.

      There is, however, at least one notable exception to the generalisation that research is focused on the pathogens.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24676721

      Probiotics Antimicrob Proteins. 2014 Jun;6(2):82-7. doi: 10.1007/s12602-013-9145-z.
      In Vitro Antibacterial Mechanism of Action of Crude Garlic (Allium sativum) Clove Extract on Selected Probiotic Bifidobacterium Species as Revealed by SEM, TEM, and SDS-PAGE Analysis.
      Booyens J1, Labuschagne MC, Thantsha MS.
      Department of Microbiology and Plant Pathology, Faculty of Natural and Agricultural Sciences, University of Pretoria, New Agricultural Sciences Building Room 9-10, Lunnon road, Pretoria, 0002, South Africa.

      Abstract
      There has been much research on the effects of garlic (Allium sativum) on numerous pathogens, but very few, if any, studies on its effect on beneficial, probiotic bifidobacteria. We have recently shown that garlic exhibits antibacterial activity against bifidobacteria. The mechanism by which garlic kills bifidobacteria is yet to be elucidated. This study sought to determine the mechanism of action of garlic clove extract on selected Bifidobacterium species using scanning and transmission electron microscopy and SDS-PAGE analysis. SEM micrographs revealed unusual morphological changes such as cell elongation, cocci-shaped cells with cross-walls, and distorted cells with bulbous ends. With TEM, observed changes included among others, condensation of cytoplasmic material, disintegration of membranes, and loss of structural integrity. SDS-PAGE analysis did not reveal any differences in whole-cell protein profiles of untreated and garlic clove extract-treated cells. The current study is the first to reveal the mechanism of action of garlic clove extract on probiotic Bifidobacterium species. The results indicate that garlic affects these beneficial bacteria in a manner similar to that exhibited in pathogens. These results therefore further highlight that caution should be taken especially when using raw garlic and probiotic bifidobacteria simultaneously as viability of these bacteria could be reduced by allicin released upon crushing of garlic cloves, thereby limiting the health benefits that the consumer anticipate to gain from probiotics.

      http://repository.up.ac.za/bitstream/handle/2263/45618/Booyens_InVitro_2014.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

      (1) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3874089/
      Therapeutic Uses and Pharmacological Properties of Garlic, Shallot, and Their Biologically Active Compounds
      Peyman Mikaili et. Al

      (2) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8900018
      Inhibition of microbial growth by ajoene, a sulfur-containing compound derived from garlic.
      Naganawa R et. Al

      (3) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10215179
      Effects of the garlic compounds diallyl sulphide and diallyl disulphide on arylamine N-acetyltransferase activity in Klebsiella pneumoniae.
      Chen GW et. Al
      (4) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23569978
      Antibacterial effect of Allium sativum cloves and Zingiber officinale rhizomes against multiple-drug resistant clinical pathogens.
      Karuppiah et. al




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    9. Antimicrobials, in low concentrations, are part and parcel of everyday life as they are present in somel fruit and veges.
      Perhaps they are not so everyday if concentrated by juicing and when it comes to the strong ‘natural antibiotics’ perhaps we need to think of them as untested pharmaceuticals?
      Tea gets a mention too!

      Note that all, or most, of the citations I have posted in this sub-topic are in vitro studies

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14624951

      Nutrition. 2003 Nov-Dec;19(11-12):994-6.
      Antibacterial activity of vegetables and juices.
      Lee YL1, Cesario T, Wang Y, Shanbrom E, Thrupp L.
      Author information

      1University of California Irvine Medical Center, Orange, California, USA.
      Abstract
      OBJECTIVE:
      We evaluated the antibacterial activities of various fruit and vegetable extracts on common potential pathogens including antibiotic-resistant strains.
      METHODS:
      Standardized bacterial inocula were added to serial dilutions of sterile vegetable and fruit extracts in broth, with final bacterial concentrations of 10(4-5) cells/mL. After overnight incubation at 35 degrees C, antibacterial activity was measured by minimum inhibitory and minimum bactericidal dilutions (for raw juices) or concentrations (for tea).
      RESULTS:
      Among the vegetable and fruit extracts tested, all green vegetables showed no antibacterial activity on Staphylococcus epidermidis and Klebsiella pneumoniae. All purple and red vegetable and fruit juices had antibacterial activities in dilutions ranging from 1:2 to 1:16. Garlic juice had significant activity, with bactericidal action in dilutions ranging up to 1:128 of the original juice. Tea also had significant activity, with bactericidal action in concentrations ranging up to 1.6 mg/mL, against a spectrum of pathogens including resistant strains such as methicillin- and ciprofloxacin-resistant staphylococci, vancomycin-resistant enterococci, and ciprofloxacin-resistant Pseudomonas aeruginosa.
      CONCLUSIONS:
      Tea and garlic have the potential for exploration of broader applications as antibacterial agents.




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      1. Rada,

        Very well said on all your posts here. A lot of what you are saying and posting are ideas and findings that have raised my issues with certain “accepted” plant foods. Humans simply don’t reach down and start eating garlic bulbs, or hot peppers. They are somewhat opposed by our taste buds, as a mono-food. Our food systems/industrializaion, supermarkets, advertising, marketing of food, cooking of food, etc. have likely changed most people’s thinking about a lot of the plants we eat, assuming they are all good and intended for us to eat in the first place. Sure, pros and cons, but the cons, I am convinced, are totally screwing with some people in bad ways according to physical and mental health.




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        1. Thanks Roxy.

          There was some synchronicity there as I only started thinking along this line approx. 2 weeks ago and you brought it up in the forum (I think the late great Dr Carl Jung coined the term).
          I’m totally surprised by this myself ….. it appears to be a different dietary paradigm. Do you know of any precedence for it? It’s moving along very quickly for me. I’m already eating in ways that I haven’t heard anyone mention before.

          In a nutshell I think we have lost touch with our cultural roots that taught people how to prepare locally available food for safe consumption e.g. the Asians know everything there is to know about preparing grains and legumes while a lot of young vegetarians in the West, who weren’t taught how to cook in the first place, are adopting them as their stable diet. In many cases the end result isn’t good in the long term.

          Traditional cultures also lived closer to nature and knew when and how to use herbs and plants as medicines. I think our understanding of this area, in modern cultures, is a pale shadow of its former self … perhaps some things have been lost forever.

          On top of that we have our new found scientific knowledge that is finding fault with some of the old ways and also finding new and better ways of doing things so we have to adapt, and fast!
          IMO a lot of people aren’t making grade.

          I’m still looking into Coffee … very interesting. Might post on that sometime in the future.

          Another quick example of where I’m heading with it:

          Foreign entities (bacteria) …. the body has delicate inbuilt defence mechanisms e.g. the stomach is integral to our digestive system and is our first line of defence. Chewing our food prepares and conditions it mechanically, enzymatically, in other subtle ways and also bacteriologically.
          Our food then passes to the stomach where the acidic environment is antagonistic to bacteria.
          Common sense tells me that Mother Nature did not intend for us to ingest bacteria as she went to all of the trouble to build the bacterial defences into the ultimate design.
          It is inevitable that we do ingest small amounts of bacteria, however, any that do get through the stomach, will not thrive because of competition form our ‘natural’ bacteria.
          IMO our digestive system is not designed for the intake of billions of ‘foreign’ bacteria in one sitting i.e. I don’t think we should be eating probiotic food (yoghurt, kefir, fermented veges et. c)
          I don’t think the ferments are optimal nutrition. Rather they were a second choice way to eat something in times of scarcity. Something was better than nothing.
          Today with modern agriculture, storage and transportation there is no need to eat ferments to survive …. just keep the original in the fridge.

          Please note that my diet is experimental.
          I do make mistakes and sometimes have to recant e.g. I am keen to try a raw food diet, and I would like to transition off the animal products, so I recently started eating some legume sprouts (1 mixed commercial batch and 1 home made batch of Mung beans – both organic). Based on my response they are worse than cooked legumes so in conclusion I think all forms of legume should be cooked using traditional methods. IMO even the sprout should be cooked (steaming might be the best method for them or just throw them in a soup or stew).




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          1. Once again very interesting on your part. I’d love to keep hearing your views. For now I am curious….do you still eat any dairy products/cheese? Some cultures do eat some dairy and live remarkably well.

            I personally think we were intended to consume bacteria as the rest of the creatures in nature do not wash the dirt, bugs, worms, (living crawling creatures) off the leaves, fruits etc. that they consume in the wild.




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            1. No, I am not eating any form of dairy because I am still adhering to my Dr’s Leaky Gut protocol and he said no. I don’t think I will consume much dairy again anyway.

              A series of events, that started when I was influenced by Dr McDougall to try a Vege diet for arthritis, have lead to unexpected outcomes for me (it all seems like a stroke of good luck or perhaps good fortune.)
              The endpoint is that I am on a personalised ‘elimination diet’ (refer to the AIP or my link to Dr McDougall’s ‘diet for he desperate’ as examples).
              Note that I’m not desperate just very curious and ambitious to be healthy (I want to keep kayaking for a long time yet).
              From that ‘zone of nutritional stability’, established by my elimination diet, I can effectively trial foods to see if they resonate well with my current state of relative well-being (try the food for a week, stop if there is an energy drop, headache, stomach ache, mild nausea, constipation or the invers et. c). It’s not an ideological process … it’s more like science in that I am conducting an experiment and making observations.
              My body knows a lot more about what is good for it’s health than I do.
              Learn to understand your bodies health signalling and trust your body.

              The important part is that I am building up a personal diet … it’s customised for me by me.

              So, whether or not you should eat cheese depends on you and the cheese … not all cheeses are created equal. Pick a cheese and try it out.
              It seems likely that you could make a really good fist of using this method.

              I do still consult and accept guidance from medical professionals and I do read selected material (authors or research) to find new ideas and build the knowledge base e.g. I am reading ‘Grain Brain’ by Perlmutter as suggested to me, in this forum, by Dr Alan.

              Example:

              I like Dr Gundry – “Diet Evolution’
              His book has quite a bit of abstract philosophy in it, which is a bit odd, but the small amount of core dietary examples it contains are interesting to me. He suggests that we only have a shaving of some cheeses, on our food, for flavour only but he does O.K certain cheeses (fresh cheeses like ricotta, or mozzarella that is water packed).

              Another unexpected outcome of my current dietary adventure is that I no longer have the desire for certain foods; milk and yoghurt are a couple of examples. However, I am going to try the cheeses recommended by Dr Gundry …. if I like them, great, that will add more variety and give me some options for social equations.

              Note that you are an individual so you can’t just copy me.
              My approach is very much aligned to my psycho-spiritual profile.
              Your p-s-p profile will shape the direction you go in and the things you will succeed at.
              I can read a persons p-s-p, to a certain extent, but it takes a few emails. Of course ‘reading’ by email isn’t an accurate method but it still helps (probably can’t do yours now because you might become self-conscious about it).

              As long as I am around I will happily answer any questions you have.
              I’ll keep this topic live in my email as a channel of communication for you for a while.

              synchronicity -> intuition




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              1. Rada, yes, I agree with everything you have written. We are all individuals, separate bodies.

                When I ask about the dairy, I was simply curious. And I am even more curious now….how about fish, what kinds if any do you eat? Raw sushi or cooked? Any animal products? Simply curious. Thanks.




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                1. Curiosity is a good sign … it’s healthy.
                  ‘They’ say curiosity killed the cat but it didn’t cos the cat has nine lives :-)
                  What do’ They’ know?

                  This stuff is all brand new to me.
                  I’ve been shown the method and given the tools, now I’m learning to use them in a heuristic way.
                  Initially my food lists were primarily nutritional but I do also use an informal risk analysis to move things on and off the list e.g. I do read Dr Greger’s material on the risks of eating animal products and I also refer to many other various sources. Availability, psychological and social factors also influence what foods are in my lists e.g. I will eat a limited amount of some orange zone foods, on occasion, just because my wife likes to see me eating them.

                  I am settling in to the process of refining my food-lists.
                  They are not close to being perfected at this early stage.
                  The only certainty is that todays food-list will not be tomorrows food-list.

                  So, my green zone food, at the moment is very short and accidental (fate determined that I would go hybrid AIP – Paleo for a while at least). It comprises foods that rationally (according to nutritional databases) is of high nutritional value. On top of that I am filtering that food by elimination and observation.
                  The only dairy I am interested in is fermented ‘live’ dairy but based on the subjective testing I did recently that is now gone from my diet … even coconut milk yoghurt is gone.
                  I don’t think I will be eating any cupsful of bacteria for a long while.

                  Yes, I eat fish.
                  I intersperse the fish with meat and eggs.
                  I buy a local ocean fish that is not a popular fish.
                  I selected it because I know the region where it is caught so I know it is unlikely to have high levels of contaminents (mercury?) I know it goes straight into the freezer on-board so I know it is at a low risk of being tainted (containing bacteria from age decay).
                  It is normal for locals to know which fish are bottom feeders (yuk!) or riddled with parasites/pathogens (yuk!) so I avoid them (Wikipedia can also help with that).
                  I also have some alternatives that pass the same test.
                  I have read testimony from naturopaths who have had to sort out health damaged Vegans plus Dr Fuhrman who said he has had to restore health to Vegans who have brain issues because of a deficiency of the essential oils.

                  My eggs are grass feed bio-dynamic.
                  I sometimes eat them raw in a smoothie but the smoothies are sliding down towards the orange zone (too much of everything too quickly for the gut).

                  My meat is antibiotic free grass feed organic also.
                  Only lamb and beef.
                  Sausages went onto the red-list (too much fat … the fat in a lamb chop is enough).
                  Dr Ray Peat convinced me the fat in lamb and beef is saturated and hence better than the other types of meat (cows and sheep convert PUFA in their feed into SFA while the other animals don’t).
                  I eat small portions of meat and fish.
                  No organ meats cos I’m a modern day sook.
                  The real problem with meat is it’s not actually fresh anymore and 99.9% of us have no chance of obtaining fresh meat (I’m probably too big of a sook to kill myself although it would be more honest than outsourcing it).

                  I snack on raw nuts 2×100-200 ml serves per day (a la Gundry)…. always eaten with an apple (my rule).
                  The rest is fruit and veges … 1-2 salads a day, no vinegar, no dressings, no oils 1-2 tsp per serve of olive oil on my coleslaw. Occasional cooked veges.
                  Water, soda water and 1 weak coffee per day.
                  No juices.
                  Coconut oil for occasional frying and eating raw (1-2 tablespoon/day == 50ml?).
                  zero added sugar.
                  zero grains (I think my wife sneaks some cornflour and sugar in here and there).
                  Rice cakes and cooked rice are on my orange zone food-list.
                  At the moment I’m in the zone so I don’t feel like dipping into the orange food and I don’t feel the need to complicate anything..

                  I’m a SPIRITUAL MAN and a Vegan at heart and I’m eating a lot of meat.
                  Only a SPIRITUAL MAN could live with that dichotomy without developing stress et. c

                  Nothing to say I won’t be on McDougall’s elimination diet next week but everything is getting better so I have no incentive to change. Most people would find elimination diet compliance hard to do but we know from Esselstyn’s heart reversal study that people who have everything to lose are motivated to change.
                  Most young people are healthy and they aren’t motivated to change until after they get sick :-(
                  That’s the one that breaks doctors hearts so lets not be hard on them.

                  I’m a walking dilemma for the Vegetarians.
                  I eating meat everyday and my arthritis is improving (subjectively).




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                2. Do I eat raw fish?

                  No, I cook it lightly in coconut oil. Sometimes I coat it with a rice flour and salt mixture using the plastic bag method. Alternatively I make fish cakes using only the fish and cold mashed potato (skin off).
                  Sometimes I crumb the fish cakes using Gluten Free crumbs (they aren’t very good but that’s the only option I have). They are fried in coconut oil too (I use the odour free coco oil for cooking and normal type for other uses).
                  Tuna is the premium fish for Sushi but that’s out because of contamination and over-fishing.

                  I cook all of the meat using any of the standard methods (roast, fry, stew).
                  Forgot to mention I also eat organic chicken drumsticks. I bake them for my work lunchbox (with a bit of luck they might even contain some vitamin K2).

                  Raw foodism is an ideology.
                  It is the most seductive of all the ideologies for me as it is the most suited to my temperament.
                  In real life it may not work out like it does in theory.
                  So far I have tried bean sprouts and dairy/coconut milk ferments as a precursor to transitioning to a raw vege diet but neither of them worked out so I think that diet is nearly impossible for me. I needed them to form the basis of a staple diet (I have raw nuts but I need a couple of other raw high protein foods to make it work).
                  I will have to come back to that one later.

                  I am interested in raw fish but there is some research and risk control to be implemented and I haven’t worked that part out.
                  Parasites are the main risk with raw fish and meat.
                  Cooking is the main defence against parasites.
                  To eat fish raw I would have to source fish with a known and low parasite risk.
                  Deep freezing is a successful parasite risk control measure but I would have to source a sub-zero freezer because my current freezer doesn’t go to a low enough temperature to kill parasites.

                  I don’t fancy raw meat but some raw foodists do.
                  My wife’s friend is a farmer and they make their own mince and eat some of it raw. It’s just a normal part of their life as it is the way they were brought up.




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            2. Re: “I personally think we were intended to consume bacteria as the rest of the creatures in nature do not wash the dirt, bugs, worms, (living crawling creatures) off the leaves, fruits etc. that they consume in the wild.”

              Before modernity, which is only a blink in time away, our exposure to bacteria was probably relatively contained and constant. It is likely that we swapped bacteria with our family and also the local community,flora and fauna.
              I think it is likely that our microbiomes synchronised, in a similar way to the way a group of ladies, living in a commune, synchronise their menstrual (reproductive) cycle to the alpha-female in the group.

              Yes, I agree it is normal to eat bugs, in fact I think it is a necessary part of the natural defence mechanisms we have in place (individually and collectively). On a daily basis we ingested a diverse range, but a small number, of bacteria. The few that made it through to our intestines provided a diverse seed stock that enabled our microbiomes to adapt to seasonal variations in diet and fibre variance is the mechanism that enabled natural selection. However IMO eating a cupful of foreign bacteria, of a limited diversity, or flying around the world changing out our fibres and bugs wasn’t part of the original plan, not to mention living on a fibreless diet.

              Re: ” eating the grubs in our food”.

              That topic is on my reading list.
              I think Dr Gundry mentioned a troop of Marmots, perhaps in captivity, who weren’t faring too well from a health perspective until some-one figured that in the wild they got about 10% of their calories from animal protein (bugs in and on the apples sort of thing).




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              1. It’s like we might be adapted to only certain foods, or, our individual body, based on its history, thrives best on certain things that other humans might not do well on.




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                1. Roxy,

                  Re: “It’s like we might be adapted to only certain foods, or, our individual body, based on its history, thrives best on certain things that other humans might not do well on.”

                  Agreed.
                  It’s difficult to prove something like that but I think we have to leave the hypothesis on the table and act ‘as if’ it is true.
                  Three possible factors:

                  – genetics
                  – persistent individual or ancient ‘tribal’ microbiome (enterotype) variations
                  – psycho-spiritual energy conditions our microbiome.

                  There is some science to suggest that gut ‘implanted’ bacteria are rejected over time and the gut automatically returns to type.
                  There is also some science that shows that ‘stress’ (our mental emotional state) conditions our microbiome.

                  I don’t think we need to be alarmed by our dietary limits – holistically we have an amazing capacity to adjust and maintain health – our innate drive to survive is amazing.
                  As long as we don’t fight against it and don’t become stressed by being the odd one out.

                  For some people, including genuine Vegans, modern life is likely to impose a continual level of stress (I call it spiritual distress) or angst, if only at a subliminal level e.g. I am affected by the harm being done to the planet and nature, by man, especially the ocean. Destruction of species is another thing that upsets me.
                  ‘No man is at island’.
                  We are living in unprecedented times.
                  I already consider that much of what has gone before is no longer relevant.
                  From a health point of view I am using the concept of ‘defensive eating’ because of the high level of risk factors in all of our food.
                  I’m eating to survive and I’m living defensively too e.g. I am semi-reclusive.
                  The main thing is not to be alarmed by it all.
                  I’m lucky in that I am a SPIRITUAL MAN and I have my mission so that is all I have to account for.
                  The rest is out of my hands.

                  example:

                  Our oceans are in such a bad way I consider myself lucky to be able to source any kind of fish that is safe to eat. So, I’m not complaining that it doesn’t have a premium flavour or texture.

                  I don’t think we need to be alarmed by our dietary limits – holistically we have an amazing capacity to adjust and maintain health – our innate drive to survive is amazing.
                  As long as we don’t fight against it and don’t become stressed by being the odd one out.

                  Re: cheese

                  am looking at trying the ‘fresh’ cheeses that are not fermented cheeses.
                  Probably will make my own from local bio-dynamic milk.
                  My doctor all suggested goats milk.

                  Re: fish

                  I do like smokes salmon but don’t eat it often due to antibiotics used in raising farmed fish.

                  Re: my diet
                  I posted 2 answers.
                  U might have missed them.
                  I see at the website u might have edited your post but in my mail I have the original?

                  Here is a copy paste of my previous answers about which fish I eat.

                  Curiosity is a good sign … it’s healthy.
                  ‘They’ say curiosity killed the cat but it didn’t cos the cat has nine lives :-)
                  What do’ They’ know?
                  This stuff is all brand new to me.
                  I’ve been shown the method and given the tools, now I’m learning to use them in a heuristic way.
                  Initially my food lists were primarily nutritional but I do also use an informal risk analysis to move things on and off the list e.g. I do read Dr Greger’s material on the risks of eating animal products and I also refer to many other various sources. Availability, psychological and social factors also influence what foods are in my lists e.g. I will eat a limited amount of some orange zone foods, on occasion, just because my wife likes to see me eating them.
                  I am settling in to the process of refining my food-lists.
                  They are not close to being perfected at this early stage.
                  The only certainty is that todays food-list will not be tomorrows food-list.
                  So, my green zone food, at the moment is very short and accidental (fate determined that I would go hybrid AIP – Paleo for a while at least). It comprises foods that rationally (according to nutritional databases) is of high nutritional value. On top of that I am filtering that food by elimination and observation.
                  The only dairy I am interested in is fermented ‘live’ dairy but based on the subjective testing I did recently that is now gone from my diet … even coconut milk yoghurt is gone.
                  I don’t think I will be eating any cupsful of bacteria for a long while.
                  Yes, I eat fish.
                  I intersperse the fish with meat and eggs.
                  I buy a local ocean fish that is not a popular fish.
                  I selected it because I know the region where it is caught so I know it is unlikely to have high levels of contaminents (mercury?) I know it goes straight into the freezer on-board so I know it is at a low risk of being tainted (containing bacteria from age decay).
                  It is normal for locals to know which fish are bottom feeders (yuk!) or riddled with parasites/pathogens (yuk!) so I avoid them (Wikipedia can also help with that).
                  I also have some alternatives that pass the same test.
                  I have read testimony from naturopaths who have had to sort out health damaged Vegans plus Dr Fuhrman who said he has had to restore health to Vegans who have brain issues because of a deficiency of the essential oils.
                  My eggs are grass feed bio-dynamic.
                  I sometimes eat them raw in a smoothie but the smoothies are sliding down towards the orange zone (too much of everything too quickly for the gut).
                  My meat is antibiotic free grass feed organic also.
                  Only lamb and beef.
                  Sausages went onto the red-list (too much fat … the fat in a lamb chop is enough).
                  Dr Ray Peat convinced me the fat in lamb and beef is saturated and hence better than the other types of meat (cows and sheep convert PUFA in their feed into SFA while the other animals don’t).
                  I eat small portions of meat and fish.
                  No organ meats cos I’m a modern day sook.
                  The real problem with meat is it’s not actually fresh anymore and 99.9% of us have no chance of obtaining fresh meat (I’m probably too big of a sook to kill myself although it would be more honest than outsourcing it).
                  I snack on raw nuts 2×100-200 ml serves per day (a la Gundry)…. always eaten with an apple (my rule).
                  The rest is fruit and veges … 1-2 salads a day, no vinegar, no dressings, no oils 1-2 tsp per serve of olive oil on my coleslaw. Occasional cooked veges.
                  Water, soda water and 1 weak coffee per day.
                  No juices.
                  Coconut oil for occasional frying and eating raw (1-2 tablespoon/day == 50ml?).
                  zero added sugar.
                  zero grains (I think my wife sneaks some cornflour and sugar in here and there).
                  Rice cakes and cooked rice are on my orange zone food-list.
                  At the moment I’m in the zone so I don’t feel like dipping into the orange food and I don’t feel the need to complicate anything..
                  I’m a SPIRITUAL MAN and a Vegan at heart and I’m eating a lot of meat.
                  Only a SPIRITUAL MAN could live with that dichotomy without developing stress et. c
                  Nothing to say I won’t be on McDougall’s elimination diet next week but everything is getting better so I have no incentive to change. Most people would find elimination diet compliance hard to do but we know from Esselstyn’s heart reversal study that people who have everything to lose are motivated to change.
                  Most young people are healthy and they aren’t motivated to change until after they get sick :-(
                  That’s the one that breaks doctors hearts so lets not be hard on them.
                  I’m a walking dilemma for the Vegetarians.
                  I eating meat everyday and my arthritis is improving (subjectively).

                  Do I eat raw fish?
                  No, I cook it lightly in coconut oil. Sometimes I coat it with a rice flour and salt mixture using the plastic bag method. Alternatively I make fish cakes using only the fish and cold mashed potato (skin off).
                  Sometimes I crumb the fish cakes using Gluten Free crumbs (they aren’t very good but that’s the only option I have). They are fried in coconut oil too (I use the odour free coco oil for cooking and normal type for other uses).
                  Tuna is the premium fish for Sushi but that’s out because of contamination and over-fishing.
                  I cook all of the meat using any of the standard methods (roast, fry, stew).
                  Forgot to mention I also eat organic chicken drumsticks. I bake them for my work lunchbox (with a bit of luck they might even contain some vitamin K2).
                  Raw foodism is an ideology.
                  It is the most seductive of all the ideologies for me as it is the most suited to my temperament.
                  In real life it may not work out like it does in theory.
                  So far I have tried bean sprouts and dairy/coconut milk ferments as a precursor to transitioning to a raw vege diet but neither of them worked out so I think that diet is nearly impossible for me. I needed them to form the basis of a staple diet (I have raw nuts but I need a couple of other raw high protein foods to make it work).
                  I will have to come back to that one later.
                  I am interested in raw fish but there is some research and risk control to be implemented and I haven’t worked that part out.
                  Parasites are the main risk with raw fish and meat.
                  Cooking is the main defence against parasites.
                  To eat fish raw I would have to source fish with a known and low parasite risk.
                  Deep freezing is a successful parasite risk control measure but I would have to source a sub-zero freezer because my current freezer doesn’t go to a low enough temperature to kill parasites.
                  I don’t fancy raw meat but some raw foodists do.
                  My wife’s friend is a farmer and they make their own beef mince and eat some of it raw. It’s just a normal part of their life as it is the way they were brought up.




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                2. Roxy,

                  My policy is to leave all of the cards on the table and wait patiently until the Gods give me a sign so I also have to consider that I am seeing things that most others are not – while the Paleos and Dr Greger are close they might not get the cigar.

                  I’m used to being the odd man out.

                  Spirituality sets us apart from our fellow man. It’s a blessing not a curse.

                  Maybe I’m formulating a diet for the current crop of spiritual people.




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                3. Roxy,

                  I coined the term ‘spiritual distress’ as a tool to help other ‘spiritual’ people.
                  What it refers to is the natural friction that occurs between spiritually awakened people (or those on the cusp of it) and the spiritually dormant people who surround them and shape the world we live in.
                  My teacher explained it to me by comparing it to the opening of a rose….. for the flower to open the bud has to undergo strain to facilitate opening of the flower.
                  It’s not a bad thing as it is a sign that the soul is preparing us for its ascendency in our lives (over the next few reincarnations).
                  People who find themselves in should co-operate and tweak every facet of their live to facilitate the process (we can’t get caught with one foot on the jetty and one foot in the boat forever … we need to stand with both feet in the boat).
                  How we go about that is unique to each of us.
                  It involves a gazillion little things and not one big thing.
                  Diet might be a part of that process.

                  As above, so below.

                  I’m a pragmatic person so when it comes to diet I’m working from the bottom up.
                  I don’t throw the Tarot cards to decide what I should eat.
                  I’m satisfied that an elimination type diet will filter out the foods that suit me, that some of the science is relevant, that I need the help of others (Doctors, authors et. c) and that nutritional sufficiency will drive my health.
                  I assume that my needs are different to yours e.g. I might need more or less of some of the vitamins or minerals and that may change with time.

                  Down the track I am interested in the alternative diagnostics e.g. hair analysis for mineral sufficiency.
                  I understand that diagnostics like that are getting a bad rap from some quarters but I’m still interested anyway.

                  The sum of what I don’t know is almost infinite compared to the sum of what I do know.




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                4. Addendum?

                  Things are moving along quickly and expansively; as the intuition does.

                  Some things have gone from my whiteboard and new ones have been filed:

                  – I’m zeroing in on the autoimmune system, especially the way it functions in, and around, the digestive system (mouth to anus) and looking to sharpen the detail around GI inflammation and intestinal permeability;

                  – the growth in the number of todays kids, who are presenting with autoimmune issues, is both a form of karmic retribution and a sign that as we move into the new millennium the next generation or two will confound the scientists and play their part in turning the old-world paradigm on its head;

                  – it’s likely that the minerals and animals we eat are conditioned, in our digestive system, to be SELF, which is identified by it’s electromagnetic signalling (food consumed is NOT-SELF but is then ‘synchronised’ to our etheric self before being absorbed (I think my elimination diet trials are just identifying those foods that are strong NOT-SELF foods and hence arouse a protective response);

                  – ingesting a lot of live animals (bacteria) in one sitting is likely to be an issue. Ditto for yeasts (we do produce antibodies to fungi):

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_cerevisiae

                  [quote]

                  Antibodies against S. cerevisiae are found in 60–70% of patients with Crohn’s disease and 10–15% of patients with ulcerative colitis (and 8% of healthy controls).[2]

                  [unquote]

                  – a major factor in modernity is that most of the food we eat is too old i.e. meat, fish and veges et. c
                  e.g. the cos lettuce in my fridge was probably days old when I purchased it and if not consumed immediately it starts to rot very quickly. Shudder to think about the meat in my supermarket. Hence my interest in bean sprouts (I have to go back and figure what’s going on with them … I think I will try 1 tablespoon per day for a week and then go t two tablespoons et c and see if I build up acceptance).

                  – chugging down liquid foods is also likely to be an issue as it bypasses the first line of defensive and most likely overwhelms the following defensive systems;

                  – foods that are high in bacterial/yeast counts (meat, fish, raw eggs, stale raw veges/sprouts, stale milk et.c) are likely to be an issue and most of them are correlated to allergen food lists and also Leukocytosis (meat had the highest response in the original Leukocytosis tests);

                  – foods that contain yeast are likely to be an issue e.g. baked bread.




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                  1. Rada,

                    Interesting. You mention yeasts……what about the yeasts that naturally grown on our fruit skins, such
                    as on grapes and some of fruits? Can excess consumption of these fruits present a harmful issue, in regards
                    to what you posted early?

                    Forgot to ask earlier, how about caffeine for you? Coffee consumption?

                    I do think there is big difference between preserved, supermarket animal products that have died already,
                    and animal products in the wild. Herbivores and carnivore in nature get their animal products live, or recently “live”.




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                    1. The amount of yeast and bacteria on fresh food should not be a problem, unless we are immune compromised. Some foods that are not fresh may be an issue but mainly foods that are made using yeast.

                      There is quite a bit involved with coffee …. I haven’t finished my research there.
                      In the interim I reduced my intake severely.
                      I’m likely to drop it altogether.
                      It’s the hardest thing to give up so that indicates the strength of it’s addictive properties.
                      It’s the only craving I have left.

                      Yes, I think the length of the food chain is a big issue e.g. milk might be moved in and out of fridges several times before it makes it to a household fridge. Once in the household it is subject to very casual handling.

                      More people have died from food poisoning caused by sprouts than they have from meat poisoning, over, say, the last decade or two. The well known case in Germany not long ago was traced back to sprout seeds supplied from Egypt. That had a heck of a job figuring out where it came from … that is an example of how our distance from the food supply introduces risk. The seeds went through so many pairs of hands before making it to the table in Germany.




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                    2. I’m researching a contrarian approach to the microbiome.
                      You might be interested.
                      I cant tell you what the answer is but I can show you the problem.

                      Dr Ray Peat (dot com or youtube) is responsible for more nutritional outliers than all the rest put together … so many that I haven’t even scratched the surface.

                      One of the things he talks about is that bacterial endotoxins are a significant risk factor.
                      He said that root crops, because they are in the ground, have natural bactericidal properties e.g. carrots will keep in the fridge for ages whereas some lettuces and young spinach are already slimy in the salad pre-packs on the supermarket shelves.
                      He talks about eating shaved carrot, coconut oil and salt as a salad that will inhibit bacterial endotoxin whilst providing roughage.
                      Thinking that through has some implications for me:

                      – if I only ate raw bacterially resistance veges (plus meat) what would my microbiome look like after it stabilised to the new diet and what would the implications for my health be?

                      – would their be advantages in a diet like that if it inhibited bacterial growth in the stomach and small intestine and somehow stopped there so the microbiome in the large intestine would be untouched;

                      – if the microbiome did change which species would be affected?

                      I haven’t followed up but I have tried carrot sticks with coco oil as a late night snack and it was very good (the cold carrots from the fridge set the oil like coco coating plus a bit of seasoned salt …. very nice).

                      All of this got me thinking.
                      The microbiome is the latest and greatest idea in town but we don’t know a lot about it.
                      Say, it isn’t beneficial at all but just something we have to put up with.
                      There are some precedents for this thinking:

                      – cows are continuously feed low dose antibiotics to make their gut more hygienic … it’s more efficient farming (greater weight gain for the same feed input) … does that equate to better health?

                      – ‘organic’ chickens are feed vinegar instead of antibiotics for the same reason.

                      I know that we use some of the by-products of fermentation but are they actually essential to life …. would we die without them.
                      Butyrate is the main by-product of interest to me as it is claimed to be healthy for the gut lining.
                      There is some science that suggests butyrate comes mainly from fermented carbs (resistant starch?) so do we really need it and would we still produce it if out gut was more hygienic?

                      P.S

                      I have also noticed that cabbage and cruciferous veges keep for ages in the fridge so they must be more resistant to bacteria too.
                      Fungal and bacterial resistance seem to go hand in hand …. most of the natural antibiotics seem to be antifungal and anti-yeast as well.

                      It’s a dangerous thought isn’t it?
                      It will be a while before I get to the bottom of that one.

                      P.P.S

                      If you are interested in sprouts just search sanitize seeds (the bacteria are carried by the seed and soaking/germinating is ideal for their rapid propagation. Ditto for sprouted nuts).
                      Home brewers know a thing or two about it as well.

                      Everybody needs a cow and their own vege patch.




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                    3. Ray Peat is interesting. I assume he is wrong about some stuff but right about a lot as well.

                      Interesting to me is that he claims emphatically that omega 6 nuts, needs, oils, are the curse of
                      most ailments.

                      He also say that polyunsaturated omega 6 plant sources and cellulose are what hurt the microbiome of humans.
                      Says we are mostly fruit eaters, shellfish, certain fish lower in polyunsaturated fats, some roots, and modern day dairy if one can tolerate.




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                    4. Roxy,

                      Re: Ray Peat

                      Yes, he is bound to be right on some and wrong on others.
                      Yes, he is definitely strongly against all PUFA’s because they readily oxidise after they are ‘built in’ to bodily structures (except that the fish oils don’t have long term negative effects on account of oxidisation).
                      I’m not sure where he stands on the essential oils.
                      In fact I’m not sure exactly where he stands on most things – he was prolific and a lot of his work was conveyed via radio for which there are no transcripts for some of it. The radio interviews were also dynamic so he jumps around a lot and possibly contradicts himself when he makes casual statements.
                      I believe he eats shellfish to obtain a particular nutrient.
                      You have to careful with him … he is very left field (although that’s what I like about him).

                      Re: our natural diet

                      Discussions on our anthropological heritage can be interesting but the ideologues have ruined it with their continual efforts to justify their diet based on what we used to eat in a previous millennium.
                      I’m satisfied that we were omnivores who dropped the ability to synthesise B12, and other nutrients, because it was so prevalent in our omnivorous diet. Undoubtedly the groups who ventured out of Africa, into the cold parts of the northern hemisphere, survived because we are highly adaptive. The adaptability is the key point.
                      Today we can use that adaptability to pursue dietary truth.
                      Given that science won’t, or can’t, answer all of my questions I have to combine the best of the available science with creative thinking, personal observation, and an elimination diet, to see what works best for me.

                      My current research is focused around the provisional hypothesis that in the modern world an overload of pathogens, in our food, is a root cause of disease;

                      – I am speculating that an excess of pathogens in the stomach, and particularly the small intestine, is the problem. This includes SIBO which is exacerbated by high starch/high sugar/low fibre diets;

                      – bacteria from ‘organic’ seeds caused a deadly outbreak of food poisoning in people who ate sprouts made from the seeds ….. water and warmth were the perfect medium, so how about all dried teas, coffee, herbs and spices, dried fruit, ground flour (the warm wet stomach is another perfect medium, especially if we have low stomach acid and also between meals when the stomach acidity resides and residual pathogens might be hanging around;

                      – if we look at Dr McDougall’s elimination diet, “diet for the desperate” and look at it from the perspective of pathogens, it is an anti-pathogen diet (everything is cooked, no animal products and no tea, coffee, herbs and spices) – might just be a co-incidence;

                      – bacteria on imported foods, whilst technically the same as local bugs, might actually be more virulent when consumed;

                      – the Paleo diet is a low pathogen diet (low sugar, low carbs, fresh meat, limited tea, coffee spices);

                      – some vege diets are low pathogen diets (cooked legumes + grains plus veges, fruit nuts);

                      – bacteria like proteins and yeast likes carbs?

                      Harriet Sugar Miller posted earlier today and pre-empted my next post. That’s a good sign so I’ve moved my discussion over there.




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                5. Addenda 2

                  The digestive tract is not designed for high input of pathogens (yeast, bacteria et. c).
                  From the mouth to the small intestine bacterial counts should be low.
                  If we eat as designed only small numbers of bacteria will make it to the small intestine.
                  Beyond that they act as seed-stock to provide diversity so we can adapt to different food regimes in times of scarcity or adversity.
                  Diversity should not be an issue, unless we are unlucky enough to acquire a rare and serious pathogen.
                  Microbiome diversity amongst hunter gatherers was many times that of modern man.

                  If we eat some food that is heavily contaminated with toxic bacteria we vomit it up.
                  If we eat a small amount then we feel mildly nauseous.
                  If we feel mildly nauseous it is OK to use natural antibiotics like Ginger or Peppermint to quell the mild infection.
                  The only possible problem is if the frequency and dose of the natural antibiotic is enough to make it to the large intestine and disrupt the microbiome e.g. garlic appears to be a wide spectrum antibiotic so if we ate a large amount with every meal for a few days it might knock the microbiome flat just like a pharmaceutical antibiotic..
                  I don’t know if science will give us an answer to that question.

                  The end?




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                6. P.S to addenda 2

                  The stomach and small intestine isn’t designed for large amounts of bacterial endotoxins…. it is likely to cause local ‘inflammation’ == Leaky Gut, and worse if it goes beyond the gut lining (certain kinds of fat transport it across the endothelium?

                  The traditional wisdom of cooking our food to remove bacteria was correct.

                  Coffee and herbal teas are likely to contain myco-toxins, apart from anything else, and also pesticides if not specifically organic.




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  3. Ginger’s list of benefits goes on and on- here’s one more:

    In a human trial (Alizadeh-Navaei, et al, 2008) Ginger significantly reduced triglyceride, total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol levels.

    Alizadeh-Navaei, R., Roozbeh, F., et al, Investigation of the Effect of Ginger on the Lipid Levels. A Double-Blind Controlled Clinical Trial, Saudi Med J, 2008;29(9):1280-4

    Ginger can be grwon as a houseplant BTW!




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    1. Since ginger is a kissing cousin to turmeric it isn’t surprising to me that it has lots of wonderful qualities. I love ginger and put it in everything I think will enhance.




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  4. Are there any recommendations for consuming ginger root in the raw form? I do not prefer the taste of ginger powder and was curious if the same benefits are seen with root consumption. I generally chop the root into small pieces and take like a pill, but am unsure how much root is equivalent to 1/4-1/2 teaspoon. Thanks!




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    1. I cook with ginger root daily, it goes into tea, soups, quinoa, noodles etc…its great for lung issues.
      re green tea, the Asian students in my ESL class were shocked I was drinking green tea in the fall/winter. They say it is cooling and also lowers blood pressure. I wonder if that would be contributing to fatigue I often feel. I drink ginger green tea, so ginger might offset the cooling effects, Any info is appreciated on blood pressure & green tea.




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        1. This is so interesting payoung, thanks for posting that link. I remember that video now and great comments about it. I wonder if other similar ‘greens’ type teas can have similar positive effects? I sometimes drink mint/lemongrass which I really enjoy plain, with no plant milks or sugar. Red clover too, or nettle. Im sure they have their good points. (i check for conflicts with meds)




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    2. Hi, Jeff. I am Christine, a NF volunteer. Dried herbs are generally more concentrated than fresh. The rule of thumb is that 1 part of dried herb is equivalent to about 3 parts fresh. You mention that you do not like the taste of ginger powder, and ginger does have a strong flavor. Do you also dislike the taste of fresh ginger? If you prefer fresh, and do not mind the taste, you might consider grating it on food. You could also buy empty capsules and fill them with ginger powder. It is time-consuming, but would allow you to take ginger powder without tasting it. I hope that helps!




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      1. I checked the solids content at USDA; the ratio of powder to fresh is 4¼ to 1, close enough to the 4 to 1 ratio in the reference Miriam gave.




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    1. Hi ricklomar, It looks like for the most part the studies cited here used either powdered ginger of a ginger extract. Because I’m personally biased toward fresh unprocessed things I would think that fresh ginger would have an equal if not better effect but I couldn’t find any studies to support my theory. I did medical missions in Africa and India for several years and whenever someone on our team had an upset stomach the native people would go pick some ginger root, steep it in hot water for 15 minutes and have the sick person drink it and like magic they’d be all better in a couple of hours.




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      1. I have used ginger root tea – made from the fresh root – to deal with any type of upset stomach. For myself, for pregnant friends with morning sickness, for my Mother after cancer treatment. It always seems to settle the stomach. Remember Vernors Ginger Ale? it is made from real ginger root, not a “pop” made from ginger flavorings. Vernors works just as well as ginger tea if you can find it in your grocery store and don’t want to make your own drink.

        For a ginger tea, just smash some fresh root into a cup and pour hot water over and let it steep. Add something sweet – stevia or whatever – to make it more palatable. Use a mortar and pestle to smash the root or a hammer or rock (whatever :-)

        To store fresh ginger root, cut into 1″ pieces, stick in a freezer-safe container, and freeze until needed. Saves it rotting in your fridge. To thaw you can stick in your micro-oven on defrost. Then mince or smash as needed. I have also just thrown the root, in 1″ chunks, into my freezer with no bag or box.

        I have become a giant aficionado of ginger. Sometime, when you make a nice pot of split green pea soup ( or yellow!) mince some fresh ginger root and throw it in. As you go along eating your soup you get a really nice ginger-surprise when you bite into a small little piece of ginger. Everyone I know who has eaten this soup loves it :-)

        Go ginger!




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        1. Thanks for ll those suggestions on how to use and store ginger! I’ve always run into the “rotting in the fridge” problem. Now I’ll start freezing it!




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        2. When I make ginger tea I just use vegetable peeler to shave off paper thin slices that I steep in boiling water from the tea kettle for about 5 minutes and sweeten with a little honey. Adjust the amount of ginger shavings to taste. The nice thing about shavings is that they are easy to pick out (I use chop sticks) so I don’t have to strain the ginger out.

          An alternative is to use a garlic press to reduce the ginger to a pulp. That radically increases the surface area and so gets even more of the ginger juice into the hot water. But I find that I want to strain the tea before drinking it since I don’t like the drinking the pulp (but don’t mind chewing and swallowing it in food, weird huh!)

          I like the flavor of ginger tea so much that I make it even when I don’t have any intestinal issues.

          And to make it even better you can add shavings of fresh turmeric root. Just be really careful, the juice from fresh turmeric root will stain everything.




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      2. Been suffering with hip arthritis since the age of 20. Not sure how or why that happened but the side effects of NSAIDs started taking a toll on my kidneys and urinary system. Been getting some pain relief with a combination of turmeric and fresh ginger but still looking for other complimentary and natural alternatives. Thanks for the feedback :)




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    1. Wegan: Someone once told me that the peel can be bitter. I don’t know if this is true or not. I suspect it may depend on the individual root with some more bitter than others. But again, I really don’t know. I don’t bother to peel my ginger, but I do find that some of my recipes end up bitter. But is that because of the peel or just “bad” ginger? Or a bad overall recipe???




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      1. Omg!! – I just made a curry sauce this weekend which called for ginger root which I did not peel thinking it unnecessary. The bitter aftertaste was just awful. I’d never had that experience before. And, as the sauce sat, the next day, it was just absolutely unpalatable! Into the compost heap!!
        I’ve used g. root before, not peeling it, in a soba noodle soup which one consumes immediately and no problem. But I am wondering, now, if the problem is that the peel lends this nasty taste when it has a chance to brew in a stew (so to speak).
        Thank you for bringing this up and sharing. I get it now. I’m going to be a-peelin.!




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          1. Yes, this was a surprise to me too. I’ve not peeled ginger root for years and had no problem. But this one particular time . . . holy cow it was just so friggin nasty tasting. And I NEVER throw out food unless it is absolutely necessary. So I am now a peeling convert.
            But until this video and discussion, I had no idea what might have really happened to my “curry”. Now I think I do.
            This is why I just LOVE this site and the people who weigh in and chat about things.




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      2. I have used fresh ginger, about 1/2 inch in a smoothie so I don’t scrape the skin off since it all gets puverized in the mixer. Als use up to 1/2 teaspoon of the spice.




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  5. I have osteoarthritis, disc degeneration and now, knee pain, so this video and the others like are of particular interest to me. I would like to know are there any good studies about the efficacy of MSM, Glucosamine and Chondroitin and related substances to treat musculo-skeletal problems. Thank you.




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    1. Hi there, I am a volunteer for Dr. Greger and am happy to help. If you type ‘osteoarthritis’ in the search bar on the website you will find a few videos about turmeric and sesame seeds and a few other treatments that have been studied for this disease.




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    2. Dear Antillar, I am Christine, a NF volunteer. I am sorry to learn that you are suffering with joint pain and degeneration. MSM, glucosamine and chondroitin are not subjects that have been covered on NF, but I will let Dr. G. know that there is interest. MSM is a form of sulfur, which is found abundantly in many healthy foods, such as swiss chard and brassica vegetables. Glucosamine supplements are made from lobster and crab shells. There does not appear to be a lot of quality research on its effectiveness, and the results of existing research are mixed. The same applies to chondroitin. Both glucosamine and chondroitin supplements often include sulfur, which makes me wonder if any benefits might be due to the presence of this mineral. You might try eating more sulfur-rich and nutritious vegetables, and maybe add some cilantro. This article might be of interest to you. http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/12/06/why-some-like-cilantro-and-others-hate-it/ I hope that helps!




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      1. Christine,

        Might be worth looking into Glucosamine as a binder for Lectins.
        There is some science on this and also for the Lectin/Leaky Gut connection.
        Some of the science suggests that Glucosamines will bind to Lectins, preventing LG tendencies of Lectins provided they are eaten at the same time.
        In fact I think it is a protocol, possibly mainly for animals that are being feed grains?

        Personally I’m more afraid of Lectins now that I know I have LG – I don’t accept some of the high Lectin containing foods well (it might just be a heightened and learned auto-immune response as a result of living with LG).




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    3. Hi Antiliar,

      First, do not rule out anything based on what I say because I am only providing anecdotal evidence and it is only coming from one person. Keep an open mind and consider everything but do add my experiences to your checklist.’

      I was diagnosed with ‘osteo’ in my mid 30’s (I’m now 64).
      My Dr’s prognosis, for the future progression of the disease was pessimistic.
      Over the ensuing years it did start to take hold of me (every joint in my body including the spine).
      I had a history with ‘health foods’ and natural healing.
      I declined all medications and made an effort to cure it using all of the alternative therapies I could come across.
      IMO nothing worked.
      Note that some of my efforts may have been half-hearted or not well-informed but I cant recall the specifics.
      I took things like:

      – ginger pills (don’t recall the dose or brand);
      – high Vit C
      – chondroitin + co-factors (More than one brand);
      – honey and vinegar (high dose);
      – high dose Calcium;
      – gelatin supplements
      – other things.

      Eventually I got lucky and managed to achieve a stepped improvement via diet but I didn’t know what was actually working so I had to keep it up as a shotgun approach (very low sugar,1 vege salad per day, meat/fish/eggs, salt supplement, no other supplements, cows milk, low processed food, cant recall the rest).
      Approx 6 months ago I decided to force the issue, as my progression had plateaued.
      I made an attempt to revert to vegetarianism (I had been vege before for a long period).
      My basis for this was the view held by Vegetarians that they ‘had the cure’ ….. refer to Dr McDougall/ “diet for the really desperate” as a typical example.
      Within a few weeks I noticed a stepped decline in my joints and general health and stopped the experiment.
      After mulling over this situation for a week I searched for a local Dr with experience in Leaky Gut and went there to obtain testing for that.
      I was mildly positive with mild candida overgrowth.
      Mydoc put me on a simple protocol to cure LG (go to my NF posts to read previous comment on the details if u are interested).
      Long story short… my LG is getting better and my arthritis is melting away (I’m enjoying the feeling to say the least).

      Note that no-one, and I mean no-one, believes that a joint damaged by arthritis can be restored so I don’t know what DR McDougall, and others like him, actually mean when they say they have cured arthritis through diet.
      MY joint pain has significantly decreased, but not disappeared 100% yet.
      Of course bones et. c may take months to repair so why expect arthritis to disappear overnight?

      Re Chondroitin et c
      Yes, there are studies
      I would be happy to help but I am busy making my contribution to the debate around this subject (Leaky Gut/MicroBiome) and I believe there is more value in that discussion than chasing the supplements like a dog chasing a car.
      I’m not a supplement person.
      I want to know root causes and cut disease off at the knees.
      When I was a kid I ran and jumped like a mountain goat.
      My mother was on a ‘poor’ diet and neither rof us took Hyalouranic acid/Chondroitin/MSM et. c
      How did my joints form then without the need for all of the above?

      Search the NCBI-NIH database … I’m sure u will find plenty of documented research.
      From memory most of it is weak but I might be wrong.

      According to the Leaky Gut model arthritis is an auto-immune issue which starts in the gut (the first two questions my doc asked me where, “alcohol?” and “do you eat much wheat”.

      My best friend is ‘the elimination diet’ … we’re going to get married :-)
      Discussion with our friends in this group is also helpful but not always in the way that they think e.g. I am in an open discussion, in this topic, with Roxy/Tom et al … that discussion is part of the bigger LG/auto-immune/arthritis discussion which some of us have been stoking in this forum for a while.

      There isn’t a quick fix.
      Nutrition is almost a bottomless pit.
      I’m still learnng and also finding new foods to avoid (by a process of elimination).

      I’m on the ABC Diet (the diet is copyright to me but the mnemonic is from the FBI? )

      Assume nothing
      Believe no-one
      Check everything.




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        1. My recall is that he is on record as claiming that a vegetarian diet does cure ‘arthritis’ and also that it does not ‘cure’ damaged joints.
          Assuming he meant he has observed a significant number of inflammatory arthritis cures I am finding it hard to imagine what that cure would look like if it doesn’t restore the joints (so the joint pain stops, or diminishes, whilst bone on bone keeps grinding away?)

          Sorry, I would like to find his documented remarks, or perhaps find an alternative owner, but I have only allocated so much time to this worthy cause and I do want to talk to Roxy before closing out.
          If he didn’t say it one of the other go to vegetarian ‘guru’s did (no disrespect intended).




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        2. Tom,

          Sorry I didn’t have time to finish our conversation yesterday.

          A few months ago I was influenced by Dr McDougalls views on ‘arthritis’ and his ‘diet for the desperate’ elimination diet to the extent that I started to return to a Vegetarian diet to see what effect it would have on arthritis. It didn’t work out, for me, as he claimed but indirectly the experience did move me a lot closer to my cure.
          I think it has the potential to form the basis of a Vegetarian Leaky Gut protocol.
          I’m thinking of trying again in the future just to see what happens.

          http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/021200pudiet.htm

          Dr McDougall does have more to say about the treatment for Osteo than just losing weight … he blames it on diet (animal products, nutrient deficiencies, inflammatory foods and diet.

          I agree 100% that it is diet related for most people (a few people would have a genetic disposition for joint weakness).

          https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl/apr/040400puarthritis.htm

          referencing material from this page:

          https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/hot-topics/medical-topics/arthritis/

          Dr McDougall claims that there is an inflammatory aspect to both OA and RA and that a Vegetarian diet (or perhaps his protocol?) will provide significant remission in 4-7 days and a cure within 4 weeks!

          A couple of things are cause for my concern:

          – in his Osteo paper he recommends Glucosamine but he admits elsewhere that he has since had to recant on that one but the old information is still on his site. Not professional IMO;

          – he states that, “People diagnosed with degenerative arthritis (osteoarthritis) have inflammation in their joints in addition to the long-standing damage (degeneration). This inflammation can often be stopped with a change in diet and the swelling, pain, and stiffness relieved. What won’t change in either form of arthritis is the permanent destruction left by years of disease, leaving deformity, stiffness and pain. ”

          As I said, I’m trying to imagine what a joint with ‘no inflammation’ but damaged cartilage (possibly bone on bone) looks like.

          I think he is wrong when he says that damaged joints can not regenerate but almost no one else argees (I did find one chiropractor who claims to have regenerated damaged joints).




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          1. Thanks Rada.

            Yes, you are right, he does argue that inflammation plays a role in osteoarthritis. Of course, he does emphasise weight. He also stresses the importance of regular heavy exercise.

            I don’t have a problem with him leaving old newsletters on the record even ih has changed his views. He is at least honest enough to admit where he got things wrong.

            And where he talks about significant remission etc it is clear that he is not referring to osteoarthritis
            “Lupus, psoriatic, and ankylosing spondylitis are all very responsive to the McDougall Program. About 70% of people with rheumatoid arthritis (the most common form of inflammatory arthritis) can expect dramatic benefits, and often a cure, in less than 4 weeks of diet change.”
            https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/hot-topics/medical-topics/arthritis/

            I think there is work going on regarding cartilege repair but I think that boney spurs etc can only be removed by surgery – or at least that is the current view.




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            1. Re: ” heel spurs”

              Over 10 years ago we went camping (tenting) in a local national park with a very good waterfall.
              I set out alone to walk to the falls but missed the turn off and did some extra un-necessary mileage.
              Within a couple of hours I could barely walk because of pain under my heels.
              My daughter, and her friends decided I had heel spurs (I don’t know cos I never had it checked out).

              Since then my arthritis has significantly improved.
              A couple of years ago I discovered the benefits of walking around in bare feet.
              I am working physically nearly all day every day.
              Most of the time, at the moment, I am working inside doing property renovation.
              I work in bare feet, including when In have to go up a step ladder.
              The only time I put on my work-boots is for a heavy job or for safety reasons et. c
              Sometimes at night I am a little sore under the heal so whatever was there before is still there to some extent.
              That’s not bad though for being on my feet over 8 hours day in day out.
              So much for heel scrapes.
              ‘They’ might be wrong when they said bone-spurs will not go into remission!

              Walking barefoot seems to help with energy balance within the body in some way.
              It also helps arthritis because barefoot shapes the ankle/knee et. c into its natural position whereas work-boots force an artificial shape onto the ankle.

              I’m not overweight and never have been.
              I don’t need to exercise as I am swinging a hammer and lumping timber all day.




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              1. Ah, OK. Thanks.

                I have another condition which means I should wear orthotics most of the time. As a result, I always have footwear on when I go outside the house – except at the beach.

                You might want to check out this book below. I do not know if there is anything to it but at first glance it has a degree of plausibility. On the other hand, it is co-authored by Sinatra which always sets my alarm bells ringing.

                https://www.amazon.com/Earthing-Most-Important-Health-Discovery/dp/1591202833




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                1. Tom,

                  I admit that when I’m acquiring information I do tend to buy the person.
                  It’s not objective I know.
                  Sometimes I grit my teeth and try to look past the personality, to see the ideas behind them, but then the price comes into it.
                  I’m not a gambler, so if I don’t like the person I wont take the punt unless it’s free, or cheap, and I think they know something that I don’t know or couldn’t possibly know.
                  So, in this case it’s 50/50.
                  I have enough open cases going anyway so I’ve bookmarked it for later. If there is anything interesting inside one thing inevitably leads to another and it ends up getting big on me so I wont take a peek right now.
                  I can actually figure that type of stuff for myself but sometimes it helps to get a leg-up and also I do make an effort to introduce cross fertilisation of ideas and also occasionally import some wild ideas as seedstock.

                  I only go barefoot inside mainly because of social constrictions, hot pavements et. c

                  The feeling of being in contact with the earth is only a small part of it, from my point of view.
                  My main reason for doing it is that I automatically fall into a natural posture and way of moving.
                  Also, the joints in the ankle, and all the toes, get constant flexure which you don’t get when you wear work-boots.
                  It is also very hot where I live and taking off the socks and work-boots helps immensely with cooling.
                  I also work without a shirt on, for the same reason, unless I’m in the sun or on a worksite where I’m not in control. Everyone except me is always complaining about the heat.

                  A few years ago I learnt that tooth implants tend to die off because they have no blood supply.
                  On top of that I had previously learnt from Dr Bergman that the joints need nutrients from the synovial fluid and also movement to act as a pump to move the synovial fluid over the joints and the cartilage.
                  The basic idea, of mainstream medicine, that nutrition and exercise are necessary, is correct but Dr Bergman finesses that idea for us.

                  http://ic.instantcustomer.com/go/86040/video-list-5835




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            2. Tom,

              Sounds nice, but what exactly is Dr McDougall offering?

              He says,”The inflammatory forms of arthritis include juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, lupus, and ankylosing spondylitis. These aggressive diseases affect less than 5% of the people living in the United States today.” and
              “About 70% of people with rheumatoid arthritis (the most common form of inflammatory arthritis) can expect dramatic benefits, and often a cure, in less than 4 weeks of diet change.

              So that’s 70% of 5% of the population that, according to him, have a good chance of being cured in 4 weeks by becoming Vegetarian or perhaps following his protocol….. not to be sniffed at!

              But what does he mean by cure?

              According to him,”, all arthritis conditions have elements of both inflammation and destruction – and the overall condition of the patient can range from one end of this spectrum to the other.” and

              “This inflammation can often be stopped with a change in diet and the swelling, pain, and stiffness relieved. What won’t change in either form of arthritis is the permanent destruction left by years of disease, leaving deformity, stiffness and pain. To understand how most people with arthritis can be helped by a healthy diet, I will focus on the more aggressive inflammatory forms of arthritis.

              So, he doesn’t say that the process and the outcome is different for OA and RA but rather that he is only going to talk about RA.
              I have diminished arthritic pain and stiffness.
              I have greater mobility and increased energy.
              I didn’t have any noticeable swelling so that doesn’t come into it.
              I’m not claiming that I’m cured because there is still some pain and reduced movement and more importantly there is still damage in the joints (I assume).
              He shouldn’t be saying he can cure arthritis, rather he should be saying that he can reduce pain and swelling and improve mobility, to some extent.

              P.S

              I’m not being a smartarse when I remind the forum I’m eating meat and my arthritis is improving.
              I’m just pointing out that something about the theories that meat causes arthritis, like Dr McDougall’s theory, isn’t quite right. It’s not 100% correct.
              Don’t you think that would make Vegetarians want to ask questions and want to know why?




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              1. Hi Rada

                Yes and no.

                I don’t think the theory is that meat causes arthritis. It is that inflammation may be a key factor especially in certain (autoimmune) types of arthritis, along perhaps with genetic susceptibility, age, being overweight and lack of exercise. Meat is probably inflammatory but then so are fried foods, refined carbohydrates, sugary drinks and trans fats.
                http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/foods-that-fight-inflammation

                Also, a personal case report like yours is not regarded as strong evidence. As far as anyone knows, there may have been some other factor responsible, it may have been a coincidence, it may have been a placebo effect, it may even be just imaginary. There would need to be confirmatory methodologically sound studies and objective measures to support your belief for it to be convincing.

                After all, it is not “vegetarians” who have provided evidence that red meat is inflammatory and that arthritis is an inflammatory disease(s). This is mainstream knowledge.




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                1. Tom,

                  Assuming that the NAIH handout,t you previously referenced, fairly represents the ‘mainstream’ position I can’t criticise their position which is the best achievable for the majority at this time.
                  For many, in this forum, the devil is in the details …… IMO we need to finesse the basics …. as I have already demonstrated there is exercise and their is joint exercise.

                  In this discussion I have only referenced two people, Dr McDougall and Dr Bergman.
                  Dr Bergman claims that an arthritic cure requires abstention from meat and Dr McDougall specifically mentions animal protein,”The typical American diet damages the joints in several ways. Over two-thirds of the people on this high-fat, high-calorie diet are overweight and almost one-third are obese. This extra weight damages the joints of the lower extremities (hips, knees, ankles, and feet) simply through excess stress (the exaggerated effects of gravity). But there are other reasons an unhealthy diet injures joints:
                  Malnourishment from the Western diet deprives the bones and joints of the raw materials they need to become strong enough to resist the normal wear and tear of daily activities.

                  Circulation to these joints is also compromised by fat floating around in the bloodstream after a typical meal.

                  Possibly the most damaging effect is from the components of the Western diet, that cause inflammation which damages the joints, especially the proteins from dairy products – causing arthritis and eventually permanent destruction of these moving parts. ”

                  I didn’t comment on the etiology or look to poll a number of vegetarian authorities for their opinion.

                  WRT inflammation the devil is also in the detail …… IMO if we want to find an arthritic cure then we really do need to finesse the definition of inflammation and critique the current theories of the cause and effects, regardless of whether it comes from the mainstream or somewhere else.

                  I agree with you that anecdotal evidence is not evidence.
                  No, I do not have any images of any kind showing the condition of my joints know or at an earlier time.

                  Re:”Your apparent belief that meat somehow helped improve your arthritis”

                  Now you are putting words in my mouth.
                  I did not say I believe that meat somehow improved my arthritis.
                  If I have arthritis and if I have had any improvement then that occurred in spite of the fact that I am eating meat everyday.
                  Perhaps I would have achieved even more improvement on some other dietary regime.
                  The facts is I don’t know what contributed to my health improvement.
                  On balance, the most likely and rational explanation is that my M.D doctor correctly identified wheat induced intestinal permeability as the root cause of an inflammatory/autoimmune condition and avoidance of wheat (and perhaps other gluten containing foods) is the reason I am feeling better …… nothing to do with Vegetarianism or meat eating other than the fact that some Vegetarians are likely to eat more wheat/gluten than the mean intake for the population.
                  I probably would still have improved on a meat free diet as long as it didn’t contain gluten.

                  I’m still thinking about what the optimal diet for me looks like.

                  A discussion on inflammation and whether or not meat contributes to inflammation would indeed be woth having but I will have to leave it for another day.

                  Thanks for your inputs to the ‘ginger’ discussion … I got a lot out of it.




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    4. AntiLiar,

      AFAIK Dr Greger hasn’t produced a series specifically on Leaky Gut (I might be wrong as I have only viewed a tiny fraction of his video archives). In lieu of that I have posted some opinion/resources for LG in the latest NF Microbiome topic (I think that is the nearest Dr Greger comes to Leaky Gut).

      http://nutritionfacts.org/video/gut-microbiome-strike-it-rich-with-whole-grains/

      I am sitting in that topic until I complete posting of some material I have that I think has not been posted here before (nothing earth shattering just looking to round out the topic a little).
      Most of the other forum members have left that topic.
      There is only so much I can do within the NF format.
      When I finish there I might move on to other topics, or places …. not sure yet.




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      1. thanks rada, I enjoy watching the videos on this topic. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/whats-your-gut-microbiome-enterotype/ is one I found fascinating , along with
        http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-change-your-enterotype/ Last year I managed to get off of the proton pump inhibitor pills I had been taking for 9 (!) years.. initially told i’d be on them til I die.. tried many times but it wasnt until I gave up dairy (the last thing I ditched in becoming wfpb vegan) that I was able to come off the pills easy peasy. The stomach heals quickly apparently. I have had very few occassions of stomach trouble since. Rob Knight PhD in a few disciplines has a talk or two available at univ california tv on the topic of our bionome. All the best




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        1. Susan,

          Congratulations on getting off the acid blocking medication.
          My former long-time family doctor takes them himself.
          I asked him, “How will we digest our food without stomach acid”.
          He just shrugged his shoulders.

          The blockers are well known for causing GI lining damage – if we don’t digest the food in our stomach then the undigested food causes issues down below ….and that is just for starters.

          Thanks for the tips – it all factors in and builds up a clearer picture in the long run.




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          1. Yes ty rada, the specialist didnt even blink when he said I could double the doseof Pantaloc to ease the inflammation in my stomach! In my case I think I had issues with milk and wheat from a very young age. We have autoimmune issues in the family too. I only mention it because I feel so much better without the animal foods (coincidentally or not). Consciously getting enough fiber and daily bits of resistant starch to feed the critters might be helping too. Just a thought..




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              1. Thanks,

                I’ve bookmarked it.
                I’ve been to this site before … it’s quite a good resource.

                I must say, you seem to be doing quite a good job with your health.




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            1. Susan,

              All very good points.

              Very briefly:

              – yes, I think auto-immune issues are prevalent, especially in children (IMO we wont get a better answer to this until the scientists complete mapping of all (or most) of the genetic mutation/specific disease relationships);

              – yes, wheat and dairy at near the top of the list of common allergens;

              – yes, some of us just have to avoid certain foods that don’t feel right to us, even if the science doesn’t agree … IMO my key health issue (Leaky Gut/autoimmune/arthritis) goes a long way back … probably all the way to childhood;

              – yes, autoimmune issues might occur in genetic clusters. My mother has gut issues but she can’t bring her self to grasp the root causes so I cant get anything from her (genetic testing or other tests that would indicate I may have inherited somwthing from her);

              – genetic clustering is why prefer not to rely on epidemiological studies;

              – yes, I am biased to treating gut issues with ‘natural’ prebiotics. I am biased against fibre supplements, probiotics and resistant starch but I might be wrong (I’ll post a little more on that elsewhere if you care to stick around)..




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    5. To put my arthritis perceptions into context:

      – at the worst I couldn’t do a days work in the garden anymore (after mowing the lawn I had to take a rest for a while),

      – I had to change from swimming free style for exercise and do dog-paddling instead because of my shoulders;

      – when I went to bed in the evening my knees used to throb until I went to sleep;

      – I had to sleep on my front because the pain in both hips was too severe to lie on my side for any length of time.

      A lot of the pain has receded into the background.
      I’m back working full-time doing property maintenance (albeit a bit more slowly than in my younger days) and I did achieve one of my goals of running down a sandy beach again (I only did 2-3 kilometre in the soft sand but I thought I had died and gone to heaven).

      Please note though that I am not ‘cured’ …… that one is a work in progress :-)




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  6. Peanut shells. [off topic]
    Can someone direct me to information regarding the fiber content of _WHOLE_ peanuts? I am curious as to how much fiber I’m getting when I eat the shells of roasted peanuts. The search engines are clogged up with information on calories and fat and for the naked little peanut itself and peanut butter. Quotation marks and other useful precision searching tools don’t carry much weight anymore. Thanks!




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      1. Wait a minute Tom, I’m only looking at fiber content. Are you sure that fiber content is changed by cooking? I was of the opinion that fiber content is rather stable when the plant part is left intact. Is there a different result? Could there be?




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        1. Well, if the total weight stays the same (28 grams), but one food has more fat because it is deep fried, then the protein, carb and fibre content must necessarily be lower.

          Like fried potatoes vs boiled potatoes. For any given weight, the fried potatoes will contain more fat but fewer carbs and less water etc than the boiled potatoes




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          1. I get your math, but also cooking removes moisture content (the fries are done when the quit bubbling in the fat-which is water being displaced as steam. Oil replaces some of that water, so I’ll bet theres a “wash” nearly in that regard. But then a hull may hold a lot of oil. Hmmm.

            I still call foul on their numbers because adding in hulls, if they are nearly half-fiber, is going to make for a LOT more fiber in the analysis-not “negligible differences”.




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            1. Hi Wade

              I doubt if the weight of the extras oil absorbed through frying and the weight of the displace water exactly match. However, there are two other reasons why I am not surprised that the figures are different:

              1. just like different varieties of potatoes are used for frying, baking, roasting etc, they may use different types of peanuts to deep fry and sell raw. For example, bigger peanuts may have have a smaller proportion of fibre because the ratio of ski/hull to flesh would be smaller.

              2. the processing of the nuts preparatory to frying may affect the fibre content. Peseta11 above noted that the skin is removed prior to frying.

              So, the reason for the difference between the two figures may just be because it is a type of apples v oranges comparison,




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              1. You don’t think that shell-on peanuts have more fiber? SIGNIFICANTLY MORE fiber? Forget the trade-offs, I’m a peanut eater not a lab technician.

                Save my precision scales and ciphering for more important things. Thanks for your input. Cheers!

                Also, I don’t give a care what anyone said about removing a skin. I’ve seen peanuts pulled from the ground, dried whole, and I’ve boiled them and I’ve seen/eaten the “fried in the shell” version. It is impossible to remove the skin which is inside the hull. There’s nothing outside the hull but dirt. The “processing” before frying is washing and seasoning. Until the hull is removed there has been no change in fiber content unless you want to count stems.

                Sorry, I was leaving but saw that “processing” comment above. I am open to someone with actual field experience to show me this “removable skin” outside the hull of a peanut.

                If you haven’t been to the peanut fields of South Georgia, it goes like this. Peanuts are harvested from the ground where they grow like potatoes in the dirt, they are then put into huge dryers where air is forced through them. When they’ve dried properly, they are cleaned and sent to market. They may also be graded by size at this point. Buyers get shell and all peanuts and then they can be shelled (and graded/cleaned) or kept whole. But at no point is there any skin removed without removing the hull. Same as potatoes have been washed but the skin is still on the potato.

                A whole peanut is yet a whole peanut. If you add seasoning to it or soak it or cook it without shelling it, there has been no reduction of fiber.

                fin




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    1. There’s nothing on peanut shells in the USDA nutrient database, but they have enough fiber in peanut shells to make particle board. By weight, they’re about 47% crude fiber (13% cellulose, 9% lignan, 7% hemicellulose, all bulking rather than fermentable or soluble fibers), and an ounce (28 g) would have 15 calories.




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      1. So with that information I’d have to do some weighing and ciphering to figure out how much dietary fiber the shells would add. I could weigh up a cup of whole peanuts, then shuck ’em, and weigh the shells, then apply your percentages and then add that back to the values established for shucked nuts-but also only for the reduced portion that including hulls would cause.

        Sounds like a bunch of work to me. 8-P Anyway, they’re crunchy and tasty and my gut craves stuff like that these days.

        In practice I often mix in eating the nuts “on the halfshell” or eat about every third/fourth one whole.

        Thanks for the info.




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        1. The deep-fried peanuts label suggests that it’s processed. All that sodium is added, so other things may be as well. Just to complicate things further, there’s the ‘skin’ coating peanuts that’s removed before frying, and often just because.




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          1. I’m not reference anything else but the weight and the fiber content. Cooking and adding spices is “processing” but it does not remove the hull or the inner skin or the peanut. The nuts look just like they do raw in a bag from the farm. BUT they’ve been fried. And I’d like to find real information about the fiber content of peanuts WITH the hulls on.

            It’s just a point of conversation. I don’t look at labels as a rule. I don’t need calorie or fat or carb information since I’ve learned to eat WFPB. Was just curious how exactly “cave-man” my level of fiber intake is. Skins, husks, hulls, rinds, peels, I eat some. Plus the flaxseeds, and the fruits, starches, veggies, leafies, berries and twigs. Fiber make the gut happy!




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  7. Dr Greger,

    The medical literature is full of ‘reviews’ and to a lesser extent “meta-analyses”.
    IMO reviews provide only weak evidence, in support of any hypothesis, if indeed they provide any evidence at all.
    Meta-analyses can be more compelling but before going along with their conclusions we would need to pass a degree in mathematics. Most meta-analysis is a statistical re-work of several prior studies. If you don’t do the math you are not entitiled to comment on the conclusion.

    If you torture the numbers enough they will tell you anything you want to hear.




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    1. Pain is subjective (well, by and large) and the video is about a range of studies, not just a couple of meta analyses. It is also specifically about osteoarthritis pain relief so your comments, while interesting, are not all directly relevant to this video.




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      1. Tom,

        Granted.
        It’s 50/50 IMO…. we could argue the toss but it’s not that important.
        My biases might be showing but if you want to formulate your health strategies based on meta-analyses, reviews and epidemiology fell free. I find there is more than enough better quality research available to enable me to make effective decisions.
        For me it was only a couple of trials, near the end of the video, that were worth taking note of but even those weren’t compelling.
        Still worth watching though …. look at the good discussion that’s flowing from the Greger video (I think the forum does quite a good job of fleshing out the topics so I will take that).

        Specifically; the medicos have attempted to construct an evidence based ‘test’ for osteoarthritis but IMO it still relies on the subjective analysis of the patient which is why the strong placebo effect, in OA trials, tends to invalidate the trial.




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        1. Thanks Rada.

          I was first diagnosed with osteoarthritis over 20 years ago before I even had any subjective symptoms. That was because it can be identified and measured using radiography and sonography (I was being treated for bursitis in both shoulders at the time).

          Also< if I recall correctly, Dr G does discuss studies that controlled for the placebo effect.




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          1. Tom,

            I’m a bit light on the diagnostics so I’ll submit on that one (I’ll have to mark that up for future reading when I get through my topical reading list).
            My bias is to come at from the perspective of a lay-person who is self-managing to some extent, even if that is only by becoming a well informed patient.
            From that perspective:

            – there is a lot of overlap between the body pain/joint pain categories ….even coffee can cause body pain/joint pain for some (anecdotal evidence only).

            – the diagnostics are not conclusive e.g. RA symptoms can present without bloodwork confirmation?

            Specificity and reliability of sonographic/radiographic evidence is the type of thing I do like to read up on.

            Thanks for your other subsequent posts … you did some extra homework for the benefit of all … value adding that I will take on board.




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          2. I was diagnosed with OA but I was negative for RA factor …. that might have been because early stage RA confounds the RA bloodtest, I might be an exception to the rule or I might have something that mimics OA or RA e.g. non-Gluten celiac sensitivity, who nows. I’ll never know because I am well past the half way mark of finding my cure.
            Too late for me to accumulate the evidence!
            My former Dr should have followed up on the bloodwork et. c … just part of the accepted belief that arthritis is a normal part of getting old and that there is no cure.
            I think I’m still RA negative and I think I had some X-rays and other diagnostics that don’t show any extreme signs of osteo/RA




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      2. Tom,

        I was incorrect when I said that there is no objective metric for ‘arthritis’ but there is.
        I’m must have missed this type of thing, or perhaps forgotten about it.
        scroll down to the radiological measures

        https://www.oarsi.org/research/outcome-measures

        I didn’t continue on to see if there are others and how well metrics like this are accepted by the medicos.
        My questions are:

        – if the consensus is that joints damaged by arthritis will never recover why would anyone expect a metric like this to change as a result of an intervention?

        – if they only change we can expect from an intervention is inflammatory relief do we have an objective metric for joint inflammation?

        – why would any half decent scientist run an osteo trial without objective metrics (one reason could be because they don’t have a good one)? or some other reason perhaps?




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        1. Well, you can still have objective metrics. For example, progression vs lack of progression in bone spur size etc, the effective range of motion that the person has etc. These are important and relevant.

          Pain may not be an objective measure but the fact is that it can be measured. Also, for many people, pain may be the most meaningful measure of all. Perhaps that is why some trials focus specifically on pain – progression, halting, reversal – because that is often the most immediately important thing to many patients

          https://www.niams.nih.gov/health_info/osteoarthritis/#6




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          1. Fair enough.
            It’s just when I come to osteo trials that I become a bit sceptical.
            After 30 years of living with arthritis I want a bit more than,” I feel better now” as the patient walks out the door.




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            1. Yes, but lose weight, eat healthily and exercise are really all we have at the moment. And anything that reduces the need for (painkilling) drugs is a step forward. We have to take what we can get.

              Of course my OA isn’t a major problem. The creaks, cracks and daily pains don’t seem so bad when I look at the people I was close to in high school – hip replacements, stomach cancer, Parkinson’s, gout, handfuls of prescription drugs etc. In so far as it gives me a daily reminder about healthy eating and exercise, you might even say it is a positive (do I sound like Pollyanna?).




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  8. Dr Greger,

    I think the only issue with your ‘talking head’, as perceived by some people, is that it appears as a pop-up.
    If u changed your ‘talking head’ summation, at the end of each video, to another format, like a stand-up white board presentation it would probably be well received and seen as a nice personal touch to end the video.




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  9. Guys, is there a list of spices and powders Dr. Greger recommends (with the approximate amount of it)?

    I’ve already read his book, but forgot to write them all down :/




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    1. Hello there! Dr. Greger recommends 1/4 teaspoon of turmeric daily. All other salt-free spices (allspice, basil, bay leaves, chili powder, cinnamon, dill, garlic, ginger…and the list goes on etc) can be used as desired.




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      1. Hello Katie!
        Turmeric is as far as I know not the only spice with general health benefits. Do you know the other ones and why are the others not recommended by Dr. G?

        Thanks a lot!




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          1. Oh no, I’m just looking for the “most healthy” spices.

            In Gregers Daily Dozen there are over 30 spices listed and I wonder, which of them are the healthiest respectively which you should care about the most.




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            1. Sure thing. Here are Dr. G’s favorites: allspice, barberries, basil, bay leaves, cardamon, chili powder, cilantro, cinnamon, cloves, coriander, cumin, curry powder, dill, fenugreek, garlic, ginger, horseradish, lemongrass, marjoram, mustard powder, nutmeg, oregano, smoked paprika, parsley, pepper, peppermint, rosemary, saffron, sage, thyme, turmeric, and vanilla.




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              1. Sorry Katie, but I think you got me wrong. You named the same as listed in the Daily Dozen. My question is: What are the most important/healthiest ones from this list?

                For example Dr. G recommends turmeric to eat every day, so turmeric is the most important spice. What is the second, third .. and so on?




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                1. So sorry for the misunderstanding. I don’t have enough information available to essentially “rank” these herbs/spices. They’re all healthy and delicious – so feel free to use freely. Again, sorry I can’t be more specific.




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    1. Hi Hannah,

      Dr Greger does not personally answer questions in this forum but moderators and ordinary members, like myself, do help out as best we can.

      Generally arthritis is classified as an inflammatory or autoimmune disease.
      It’s unlikely that peanuts are a significant risk factor for arthritis unless you are allergenic to peanuts.

      Arthritis is a complex health issue for which we do not have a definite 100% cure.
      The best advice we have is that overall diet and specialised exercise can help relieve swelling (if any) and pain.

      If you read through all the posts in this topic you will find a post by Tom Goff with a link to some good overall guidelines and other discussion on specific issues.




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      1. Ok, thanks Rada, I know better now than to address my posts to Dr G… as for the question, it was just a question I overheard … I actually try to eat nuts daily + whole grains, plant food diet since my surgery early this year for breast cancer (lumpectomy, stage 1). I will check out Tom Goff’s post. Thanks!




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  10. When you recommend 1 teaspoon of Tumeric or ginger per day, what is the source? Can you use the actual spice you buy in the spice aisle? Should it be mixed with water?




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    1. Wrigi — Whatever gets you started, go with that. The spice isle is convenient and perfectly fine. You may mix with water.

      My view is to just get started, whatever that looks like for you…. if starting with water works, go for it!
      Take that small step.
      Then a new step will become obvious as you continue down the path of your food journey.
      There are ways to learn to cook with it or prepare it in food.

      Just to share a few ideas, these days, I put ginger and turmeric in my smoothies – I quite enjoy the flavor.

      I personally use the whole plant food at this point — fresh ginger and turmeric. I get it from the asian store and put it in my smoothies.
      Before that, I used the powdered spice from the spice isle for years. I would put the powder in my oatmeal just because it was convenient and I would remember to do it.

      On a side note, remember to take some pepper with the turmeric.
      Please see this video: Boosting the Bioavailability of Curcumin

      Thanks for the question…
      To health!




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  11. This week I returned to juicing veggies, 2 juices/day (mostly spinach, carrots, celery, beetroot+leaves, grapefruit, apple, red cabbage) with a 2cm knob of ginger, twice a day (with a light meal in the evening and I cut off coffee). I’ve noticed more flexibility and considerable improvement in my thumbs’ pain until…this evening. This afternoon I had a strong coffee after 5 days of my coffee fast and, honestly, I have not had this pain in the last 5 days, which leads me to conclude that coffee promotes inflamation and quite instantly.




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    1. Hi Laura,

      I am a long term arthritic sufferer (OA) who has achieved significant remission via nutrition.
      After several years, or more, of better joint mobility and less pain I’m still not 100% sure which part of my dietary regime is helping but I continually work on fine tuning my diet. To date I think that a high % of my diet as raw vege salads contributes a lot of the heavy lifting.
      In fact I am currently interested in the theory of Digestive Leukocytosis (DL), although it has been thoroughly debunked by science. At this stage I am not sure how to implement a 100% raw food diet, in a pragmatic way, but according to DL theory it isn’t necessary to go 100% to get the benefit. The reason I am following up on DL is that some of the feedback I am getting from my body is affirming the theory.

      http://www.filedropper.com/leukocytosiskoutchakoff

      (approx. English translation from the original paper presented in French copy downloaded from this site)
      leukocytosis nouvelles-lois-de-lalimentation-humaine-basees-sur-la-leucocytose-digestive

      http://dx.doi.org/10.5169/seals-287569

      Note that the download link for the English translation is a temporary link and will not work after a short period of time.

      Combining Leukocytosis theory with a little bit of speculation, and the standard theory of inflammation, I am considering the possibility that ‘arthritis’ is an inflammatory disease, as known to science, and also that many everyday foods are inflammatory for many, if not all of us, and it may well be some of the food we eat that is causing our arthritis (science doesn’t agree with this point).

      Coffee is one of the ‘foods’ at the top my watch-list.
      Like yourself, I have noticed that, subjectively, it might be causing a rapid escalation in joint pain (the speed of the response is very surprising to say the least). I’m not certain yet because I am only in my second cycle of elimination and re-introduction and also because I find it is very difficult to give it up permanently. I don’t know if it is my imagination or not but I think I also experienced some other minor health improvements during my last stint off the coffee (better mental focus and more consistent energy levels once I got through the withdrawal stage).

      Note that I only drink brewed coffee and I use a ‘name brand’ organic.

      Generally, for arthritics, there may be more than one cause – for me diet plus elimination of ‘allergens’ seems to work and coffee is generally known as an allergen for some. Joint pain and nerve pain is one symptom reported by some people who drink coffee.
      Note that the mainstream view of inflammation is that proteins are more likely to be allergens than other macronutrients whereas, under the DL model processed foods and cooked foods are all allegens of various degree that can be moderatd by combining them with raw foods (no known laws of science could account for this if it is true!)

      I think your post also confirms my theory that while anecdotal evidence is not evidence a number of anecdotal reports, all saying the same thing, is strongly suggestive of a fact that has utility value in the absence of scientific evidence.




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    2. Laura,

      I think your post demonstrates the potential of anecdotal evidence, with the new-found empowerment afforded us by the emerging IT revolution (which is currently the flagship, and assemblage point, for the New Millennium and the New-Agers associated with it).

      In order to get the most out of anecdotal evidence:

      – I think we have to consider that the utility value of our collective anecdotes might exceed the value of science, when used to its potential (science will only provide an answer, or partial answer, when and if it asks the right question/s);

      – most of the time science does not provide absolute answers; it’s answers usually lie somewhere in a grey area.
      Anecdotal evidence provide answers, with a high degree of probability, provided we have a significant number of reliable witnesses;

      – we do need to apply some discretion. It is obvious from any post , whether, or not, the poster has a handle on the issue and the capacity to report with sufficient accuracy;

      – I think the consensus view, of any anecdotal quorum, can only have value to private individuals; due diligence prevents health professionals from adopting ‘untested’ ideas (this is both their strength and their weakness).

      Referring specifically to your ‘evidence’:

      – I like the fact that we both agree that coffee is under suspicion as a causative agent for ‘arthritis’ and possibly other symptoms of indefinite origin;

      – I have it pencilled into my work-list as a potential toxin of the central nervous system;

      – the problem with all nutritional trials is that there are so many factors involved that it is difficult, or impossible, to control them all, and in the end the evidence is tainted. In order to get strong evidence from a personal nutritional test e.g. a coffee fast, we need to be on an elimination diet, and symptom free, and then only change one thing == start drinking coffee again, and keep that up for a few days. Then we have to maintain the washout phase for a week.

      I do accept your testimony, because it is so similar to my own experiences, however I don’t think we will convince others with our methods and statements (in the future, if a larger number of people conduct rigorous elimination type diets, and concur with our results, then the idea will gain some momentum, which is the most we can hope for).




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      1. Hi Rada, I appreciate your comments & the info you provide. Will have to read the DL paper you attached, didn’t get to it.

        Science can be useful if used as guidance, not as the answer and for me, more often than not, it is overruled by intuition and the actual energies I sense. So, very subjective. With coffee I’m biased, so those gentle energies …don’t really detect them. I’ve had a kind of love and hate battle with coffee since I can truly enjoy a good cup (and sometimes it helped me dissipate a headache or uplift me) but don’t appreciate the violent hunger it gives me hours later (sometimes to the point of shaking- unlike when I’m on juices & salads!) nor the agitated feeling (and I stress, more agitated and restless than energized, like it’s a negative sort of energy from a “potential toxin” as you say).

        To be more accurate: I had a double expresso (organic) with a couple (big) teaspoons whipped creme fraîche and coconut sugar. Had my coffee with a couple of germinated bread slices, bit of cheese and tomato mixed with garlic and organic cold-pressed extra virgin olive oil. Had cheese before last week, oat crackers, also quite a bit of turrón-type chocolate with normal sugars and fats (so was not 100% alkaline but even so, the pain was minimal, only noticed discomfort when I tried some thumb gymnastics), so the only new ingredients introduced were the garlic, the oil, the germinated bread, creme fraîche, the coffee & the sugar in it. A few hours later the pain was unbearable, constant and strong and somehow I just knew it was the coffee. Maybe I blame the coffee as it was the most acidic food I had eaten that day, despite the pinch of Himalayan salt I add to neutralize acidity- don’t know if it works (also, garlic is supposed to make everything else more alkaline, right?). My doubt: was the coffee itself or the coffee+creamer mixture? I still think it was the coffee.

        Also yesterday, no coffee and more pain than during my coffee fast days last week. I could actually feel the pain moving up my thumb like it was a very real and alive, negative energy fueled by something; otherwise the pain remains dormant…

        So today, with less pain, you inspired me to experiment a little more: had my morning veggie-ginger juice and for the coffee creamer I tried a mixture of bio coconut oil with bio cocoa nibs, cinnamon & bio coconut sugar. Like a bullet-proof coffee. For the snack I replaced the bread with rice cakes and had some goats cheese. It’s true, there’s more than one variable changed here but even so, if the strong pain returns, I’ll have no doubt it’s the coffee. Although it’s not my intention to convince anyone ( but we can learn and get inspired by each others’ experiences), will post back to let you know.




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        1. Laura,

          I’m a well developed intuitive so it is a bonus for me to be able to talk to another conscious intuitive.
          I think there are quite a few intuitive people around but most of them are not consciously aware of their ability.

          When I am posting I am editorialising and serialising … the former because I want to share my insights with the group, for various reasons, and the latter because that is how my intuition works (it nags me to post again if I omitted some particular detail or it provides new insight that extends the previous posts).
          I was recently talking in this forum, to Roxy, who is another insightful lady, but she seems to have disappeared, along with her archived posts.

          My intuition is my spiritual gift but there are other types of spiritual gifts so we may be working in a different way, in which case we should benefit from the alternate views.

          Thanks for providing some detail on your current diet and health status; I do function better with more detail:

          – have you been diagnosed with ‘arthritis’?
          – how long have you had it?
          – what are the symptoms?
          – what does a typical days diet look like for you?
          – what have you tried that has worked or not worked?

          I have posted a lot of detail, about my symptoms, and diet, in other places in this forum on the chance it might help others. I won’t repeat it all as I don’t want to bore the majority who have other things on their minds.
          You could find it if interested, or feel free to question me or critique my theories.

          When I am talking to lay people about the intuition I use a couple of simple analogies to explain it to them; it’s like going up in a helicopter and taking a birds-eye view of the terrain while almost everyone else is walking, measuring and collecting data or it’s like waiting at a set of traffic lights for the intuition to give me a green, orange or red light on any worthy topic.
          I think I can answer almost any question, within reason, providing the intuition is ‘interested’ but the flights have to be scheduled and it does chew up the fuel.
          As I have only been taking an interest in nutrition, at this level, for a short time, and also because most of the time I spend doing normal things e.g. the dishes :-) I don’t have definite answers to many of the interesting questions at this stage.

          FYI I am referring to quite a bit of the science and sometimes I will look at the anatomy 101 textbooks to pickup some detail on some specific points … the way I work I move along a lot faster if I incorporate science, interaction with others (anecdotal evidence) and intuitive guidance into the final product.
          I think my respect for others, and the science, helps me connect with others better and hopefully some of them get some good health tips from it.

          I am starting to divert away from the mainstream, and even the alternative, consensus and I am also starting to build a significant portfolio so it is likely that in the future I will have to put up a website in order to give the public a chance to judge my material for themselves.
          I will post here again to share some more detail about Digestive Leukocytosis.
          I have gone one small step past the document I gave you and it is looking interesting at this stage.
          I think you might find it relevant.

          In the meantime here are some snippets for you (not in order of relevance):

          – I have come across the alkaline/acid diet theory before … at this stage it is not of paramount interest to me.
          I suspect it is either of less relevance than others claim or the current consensus view of it is incorrect and it needs a makeover;

          – I understand what you mean when you say you just ‘know’ it was the coffee ….. I get that too.
          I want to help others, especially the average people, who after-all are the majority, so I go the distance with trying to relate it to the science and ‘bring down’ something concrete to give them … if it was purely for my own use ‘knowing’ would be good enough;

          – as ‘subjective analysts’ I think we have to be careful not to ‘cross our wires’ i.e. we are likely to have more than one health issue so we might have symptoms that are coming from different places e.g. I have mechanical injuries from the sporting days of my youth so I have some lingering pain from them that comes on top of the arthritic pain;

          – yes, I do get some bizarre after effects from the coffee. When I go off the coffee I get extreme headaches for a day or two. Just on that basis alone I am suspicious of it …. how can anything with such a powerful psychosomatic effect be good for us. I think how it works is that initially it burns up our glycogen stores and we get the high but if we keep going it’s all downhill and we are running with high nervous energy on a low fuel tank and that’s just the starting point.
          The joint pain is something else again.
          I think we have to look at it from several dimensions; caffeine and theobromine? in chocolate are the stimulants that might be doing the damage, or the beans might be carrying mycotoxins from fungi or possibly anti-fungicides have been sprayed on the beans or it might just be a plain old allergen for an unknown number of people.

          – an alternative view is that the DL theory, of Koutchakoff, is correct in which case sugar and coffee are both inflammatory to some extent (some of the other things on your food-list might also be inflammatory depending on how they are processed and what you eat them with);

          – yes, I have also experienced sudden changes in my joint pain…. too sudden to be caused by long term dietary issues. The only thing than could react that quickly is overuse e.g. weightlifting would leave me very sore for a day or two or some kind of toxic or inflammatory response from the food I eat;

          – I used to juice a lot but not at the moment (I want the fibre, I want to chew my food and I want to stimulate maximum nitrate recycling by mixing saliva with the food in my mouth).




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    3. Laura,

      I have repeated my earlier trials of abstaining from coffee and based on my subjective analysis (the response of my body, observing minor symptoms) it definitely has an adverse effect on my health (increased joint pain, body pain and other things).
      I am definitely not going to drink coffee on a regular basis.
      As it is so much a part of our social milieu I might have an occasional coffee if I am out with my wife (say, one weak coffee per month is a tolerable amount?)

      There are a few things to consider:

      – I haven’t looked at any of the science yet other than to note that it is getting a thumbs up from most studies except that it ‘might’ contribute to cognitive decline (my suspicions over coffee originated with my observation that it seemed to fuddle my thinking, so I am tentatively coming down behind the idea that it causes cognitive decline, perhaps on a permanent basis);

      – the effect of coffee might vary with the individual (some people might not metabolise the caffeine well; as per dogs and cats for example);

      – I can only give testimony about the brand, the amount and the brewing method of the coffee that I am drinking but I assume it is something to do with the bio-actives found in all coffees. Only science can tells us specifically what those bio-actives are, whether they differ with type and preparation (the species, roast, brewing and whether, or not, it is temperature dependent et. c).

      – coffee is grown in humid climates, mainly in under-developed nations, so it might be susceptible to fungus and possibly subjected to undocumented ‘processes and treatments’ (ditto for all teas, dried herbs and spices);

      – it took me 2-3 days to wash out the effects of a week of low to moderate brewed organic coffee drinking. The withdrawal effects are strong and I had to use Chai tea, as an interim drink, to smooth the transition;

      – tea, carob, cocoa (cocao) and cola contain stimulants that are similar to the stimulants in coffee so I have them on my watch-list. I have recently eaten a baked biscuit containing cocoa without noticeable side-effects but at this stage I don’t know why (the exposure was lower, coffee contains different bio-actives or metabolises in different ways or the baking process neutralises the effect?);

      – it isn’t necessarily the case that ‘coffee’ causes arthritis. In my case it might be adding an additional source of joint pain, or nerve pain, to the existing arthritic pain, however, I am investigating the relationship between ‘food’, chronic low grade inflammation and chronic low grade autoimmune disease (== arthritis?). So, for me, coffee may well be inflammatory and hence something to avoid..

      My overall view is that the stomach is contiguous with, and a specialised part of, the gastro-intestinal tract and that inflammation starts, and is signalled by, the stomach (mild nausea, pain after eating certain foods?)
      Specifically I am looking into the nature of food induced chronic inflammation from all angles; everything from science to Digestive Leukocytosis (DL).

      Note that the more I look at DL the more interesting it gets.
      I am currently formulating a DL elimination diet protocol and preparing to trial it myself.
      It is likely I will post on the subject of DL, sometime in the future, to share my findings with other forum members.




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      1. Yes, Rada, for sure coffee does not help me healthwise, but then again, neither does “normal” food like cooked meals or healthy bakery I make. These definitely promote inflammation in my thumbs and create havoc on my face (pimples of all sorts, not many but constant). All my admiration for the ginger, fresh veggies & dark leafy greens. They are sooo good, I actually did not have any coffee withdrawal symptoms when I suddenly started my juice week (and before last week I’ve had at least a stong expresso a day for months and months- weekends as well..). Looks like that’s all I should only eat to cleanse my blood and clear my face. Problem is I am not consistent and it’s not easy with so much variety, so after 2 weeks I haven’t made any visible progress. Even so, I cannot plan for 1 coffee a week ( or less) as I know I won’t respect that. (next week I’m back to work and close by are 2 cafeterias where I normally have breakfast and where the coffee is pretty good.) This body requires quite a bit of effort to notice some results, it’s rather frustrating. But hopefully, gently and with a right frame of mind, can get drawn more to what actually makes me feel good in the long run and not work against myself. And when there’s good momentum it’s easier to keep it than break it with coffee and cake and then suffer the consequences. But no, it’s not easy.




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        1. Laura,

          We can use sugar coated words but at the end of the day we are dieting.
          It isn’t easy; no diet is easy. It isn’t easy for me either.
          Fundamentally ‘fast food’ is convenient and we are all driven to do what is convenient.

          It is just as much psychological, social and spiritual as it is nutritional.
          Unfortunately, organisations like NF can’t address the contextual issues.
          At it’s nadir my arthritis was starting to bite into me; it was scary and so I am highly motivated to ‘eat to live’, rather than the reverse.
          Plus other psycho-spiritual factors are playing into my diet protocols.
          I am overtly spiritual so I accept many disciplines, that the average person would rail at, as a normal part of my life.

          I would like to be able to say the magic words, that would transform your life for you, but I can’t.
          Of course you wouldn’t want that anyway; free will is a universal axiom and what makes it all so much fun.

          The only thing I can do is offer some tips.

          Dieting is all about:

          – breaking habits; replacing one habit with another one and
          – substitution (to give something up you have to have something better to go to e.g. I replaced added sugar with fruit and I don’t have any sugar cravings).

          Haven’t found a substitute for coffee though.

          From a spiritual perspective; time is on our side (we can do it in our next reincarnation).
          The main thing is to avoid creating any further karmic debts in this life; accepting our past karmic obligations, being compassionate and altruistic is far more important than giving up coffee and cake.

          My teacher taught me all things in moderation.




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        2. A few more tips:

          – I haven’t achieved a 100% cure from arthritis but I haven’t given up hope that the joints can recover substantially (it might vary depending on the extent of the physical damage). It does require synovial fluid (filtered blood) with all of the required nutrients plus daily joint movement to ‘pump’ the synovial fluid around the joints. I’m working on my joints every day (property maintenance) and I believe overall they are still improving even with the constant work and weight they are subjected to;

          – hunger is driven by subliminal deficiencies in nutrients. Achieve nutrient sufficiency and the hunger goes away (except for our energy needs, which are perpetual, so we have to decide if we will get our energy from fat, carbs or a mix of the two and mainly eat nutrient dense forms);

          – for you participating in the social milieu might be a strong driver (being with others or being accepted by others?) in which case you probably won’t achieve the monastic discipline that ‘eating to live’ requires in this lifetime. You could just practise minimisation of harm if you choose to do so (smaller portions, less frequency and substitution);

          – if I had to give up one thing, and only one thing, it would be added sugar (free sugar = table sugar, rice syrup and diet sugars et. c even honey if that is manageable although I do find a little honey makes it bearable);

          – I am finding some scientific support for Digestive Leukocytosis (DL) amongst the current research (it is however somewhat oblique and known under various other names) although the conclusions Koutchakoff reached are not explained by any known Laws of Science. My guess is that you don’t need to know the science but you might be interested in the simple and basic application….. balance cooked and processed foods with raw foods e.g. eat cooked meat or bread or legumes with a mixed vege salad (the volume of salad probably needs to exceed the volume of meat/legume/bread combined) or for dessert meringue eaten with fresh fruit salad (again in more than equal volumes) is O.K and so on. Although banned in the USA raw milk and cream are O.K, according to DL theory, and correct the inflammatory nature of cooked desserts…. ditto for Yoghurt made from pasteurised milk;

          I am mainly speculating on this one and only future trial and error with my diet can tell me if this theory is helpful to me.
          As I said before I will post some simplified material to assist anyone else who is interested;

          – so far, in my DL adventure, I endorse raw nuts eaten with an apple, or two, as a snack (very portable and staves off hunger long enough to get past the cake bar as I head home for tea) … up to 2x300ml serving of nuts per day for people who are not concerned about body weight … start small and build up or maybe stay small for weight issues ;

          – coffee might not be as severe on you as it is for me;

          – the social aspects are a challenge for me. I just got through Christmas, with a family gathering, and beach resort stay with my wife. I joined in some of the food but didn’t enjoy most of it enough to want it again, except for my wife’s marshmallow slice :-) I am optimistic DL protocols will solve the social issue for me e.g. meringue with fresh fruit salad will allow me to join in, enjoy and not do any damage;

          – I don’t subscribe to monotonous diets. No one can go on a straight line diet and hold it. I use a dynamic approach where sometimes I’m better than I need to be and sometimes I am worse (in the end it evens out). Over time I make the highs higher and the lows lower … it takes years (especially to acquire the knowledge and trial and error different ideas). Enjoying a small amount of fun food, regularly, is part of the process that enables me to sustain my diet over the long term … after a while I find in most cases I enjoy my substitutes more than the originals anyway. Even my wife prefers gluten free orange cake to anything else.
          So for you, coffee is a ‘fun food’ .




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        3. Just to let you know I believe I am having success at regressing arthritis with my current protocols:

          – I am down to a weaker coffee, on the odd occasion only, and while it is not a health food it isn’t the worst thing for arthritis. It can probably be tolerated if the overall protocol is good;

          – I am implementing a ‘sort of’ Digestive Leukocytosis protocol to a certain extent except that I am not worrying about cooking temperatures et. c. I am just eating a lot of salads, and raw food, and keeping the meat/legumes as a smaller side portion;

          – I am a few days into a trial with Vit K2/Calcium/D3. Nothing special about the supplements; I just bought the brand because they were made in my home nation by an entrepreneurial family company. It’s early days but I think they are helping.
          The dietary protocol stops the rot and the supplements, plus all the nutrients in the food, fertilise the regrowth of the joints.
          180 mcg Vit K2, 4000 – 5000 iu day Vit D3 and some extra Calcium with it. I’m getting a bit more sun too (10-15 min per day).
          I was low on Vit D in my last blood-test.

          After quite a long elimination diet (including a lengthy spell on zero processed foods) my auto-immune system seems to be working well and if I eat any inflammatory foods I just feel it straight away so it is very easy for me now. I just have to work my way through the food and drinks list trying everything out and filter out the inflammatory foods.

          My meals today:

          – raw orange;
          – fruit salad with cashew cream (I vary the fruit to keep it interesting);
          – weak brewed coffee with soya milk;
          – 150 ml raw almonds with one Gala apple (peeled because I couldn’t get organic apples);
          – 120g cooked organic lentils (tinned), 1 ear of raw sweet corn, raw peas and beans, avocado, salt;
          – two organic dried apricots;
          – home roasted cashews with coconut oil, salad, brown rice, 100g roast chicken, marinated salad with balsamic vinegar.

          From that list only the dried apricots are to be avoided.
          My wife made tea so I ate it. It had a little something in it I don’t tolerate, probably the vinegar or roast cashews (they are fine when raw) but that was only a minor inconvenience.

          I do also enjoy hard boiled eggs without problems (cut in half with a light covering of olive oil and a little curry powder and salt).
          I have eaten commercial muesli (granola?) bars without problems.
          I also have an occasional bowl of raw muesli (granola?) with commercial soya milk and home-made smoothie with a frozen banana, raw egg and soya milk. I think I can also eat a little honey. (I listed these to show you that my diet doesn’t fit neatly into any box (Vegan or Paleo et .c – it is what works for me).

          Commercial food can vary from brand to brand e.g. some dried fruit might be O.K.
          I admit my diet is a bit Spartan at the moment but over time I will find a wider range of foods and the condiments and desserts that I can eat.

          My Dr took me off the gluten and dairy but I’m not certain he was correct on those two.
          I will have to test them out later on.

          It’s a relief to me that I have sorted it all out and have that monkey off my back and.
          I am not sure to what extent damaged joints will heal.
          I think I will get close to 100% cure but either way I am satisfied I have done everything possible.

          P.S I do have some science behind my protocols – it just would take quite a bit to present it all in one place
          I don’t crave for sweets because the fruit satisfies the sweet tooth in me and also my nutrient sufficiency is high so I don’t tend to have cravings for anything.

          I don’t think my diet is abnormal – just the opposite.




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  12. You have just spoken about ginger aiding in osteoarthritis,

    I have for 2 years now been taking sprinkled over my oats 2 tsp of turmeric, 1 tsp of ginger and 1 tsp of cinnamon plus first thing in the morning 1 tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in warm water. and a teaspoon of gelatin. I have been living pain free.

    Just recently I sold my home, which necessitated me moving. I have been through tremendous stress and anxiety and consequently neglected taking any of the above needless to say pain returned to me with a vengeance.

    You may say but clinical studies where are they? I am proof that it worked.

    Diana Harvey




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  13. Has Dr. Greger any new information about acetyl myristoleate, which is touted as a “cure” for osteoarthritis? Thank you very much!




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    1. Connie 421,

      I have used the acetyl myristoleate products clinically and saw ~ 50% of the patients reporting some reduction in pain from osteoarthritis……..

      Dr. Alan Kadish moderator for Dr. Greger




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      1. Thank you so kindly, Dr. Kadish for your suggestion.
        I will definitely search for the product. Where is best I can find them.
        Can I find it at Health Food stores??
        I missed to mention, I have been Vegan 21 years.

        Aloha,




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  14. Hi, terrapin2000. I know someone with this disorder, and it can definitely make life difficult for those affected by it. The authors of this article http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(04)00456-6/pdf state, “We therefore hypothesize that the symptoms associated with Ehlers–Danlos syndrome may be successfully alleviated using a specific (and potentially synergistic) combination of nutritional supplements, comprising calcium, carnitine, coenzyme Q10, glucosamine, magnesium, methyl sulphonyl methane, pycnogenol, silica, vitamin C, and vitamin K, at dosages which have previously been demonstrated to be effective against the above symptoms in other disorders.” Most of these nutrients are abundant in a whole food, plant-based diet. I hope that helps!




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