Doctor's Note

Make sure you see the prequel to this video, Does Meditation Affect Cellular Aging? And for background on this area of research in Research Into Reversing Aging.

I’ve asked this diet versus exercise question in a few other contexts. See:

Though dietary change appears more impactful, I’m a big fan of walking. See Longer Life Within Walking Distance and for my personal favorite exercise, Standing Up for Your Health.

For more on the role saturated fat may play in disease, see, for example, my videos Heart Disease Starts in Childhood and Treating Multiple Sclerosis with the Swank MS Diet.

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  • AngieWu

    Would the plant-based saturated fats, when eaten in abundance, such as those in avocado, macadamia nuts, other nuts and seeds, be causative as well? I understand the part about the saturated fats from meat and other animal products causing harm, but some of us vegans eat lots of saturated fats from the plant kingdom, and I think that is worthy of understanding regarding telomeres. Most of us have here have already eliminated animal products (that’s my guess).

    • Filipe Coimbra

      Believe me, you don’t “eat lots of saturated fats” if you consume a whole food plant-based diet, even if you eat avocados and nuts. However, of course you eat certain amounts of saturated fats and then your question it’s a good question. In my opinion, I believe that the synergetics effects of eating the diet that our species was made to eat (yeah, science already can show as that we are herbivorous) can easily handle that amount of plant-based saturated fats. Wish you the best (sorry, my english it’s not great)

      • George

        Filipe:
        Do you have any references that show that humans are herbivores? (i’m not challenging your claim. I just like to know so I can successfully argue with my omnivore friends.)

        • Ben

          We descend from frugivore apes, but we adapted a superior ability to digest starch, which allowed us to migrate away from the equator. I think the most accurate way to classify humans today is as a starchivore. Here is an anthropologist from Dartmouth on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0PF5R0ywp4

          • Tom S

            descend from frugivore apes!! about how many million years ago ! I do have a question:
            what I see is that many vegetarians/vegan try to compare human diet against gorilla, bonobos diets..etc
            and they would say we have to eat similar diets as them. humans separate millions of years ago from a ape like animalbut really we so far separated from gorilla and bonobos.
            diet comparison between us and them I think has no validation. we can only look at our species as homosapiens .
            98 % dna is the same is being sad. what is really meant by that. is just 1 single dna strand 98% the same. or of the billion of cells ..etc.

        • Thea

          George: I’m very fond of the following paper for information about human biology and whether we are designed to eat meat or not:
          http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

          Also, if memory serves, this video shows the many areas of human biology that supports the idea that humans are closer to herbivores than omnivores:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH-hs2v-UjI

          Hope that helps.

        • Filipe Coimbra

          When I said science I was saying that if you pick up all the science facts in our physiology, anatomy, evolution, human nutrition, etc. you can easily see how this come true. However, you can read and see about all this topics in the references that Ben gave. Enjoy the ride, it’s really eye opening :)

        • Rita Salm

          The best presentation on this subject I’ve seen/heard is Dr. Milton Mills. It’s very compelling and only the most stubborn Paleo eater would not be totally convinced.
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee25u3YccHk

      • AngieWu

        Actually, I can very easily eat over 200 percent of RDA for fats by ingesting too much tahini, macadamia nut butter, coconut butter, and other nuts and seeds. There are vegans who ingest these amounts of fats on a daily basis – 2 to 3 avocados is not abnormal for some vegans – and I think this is a reason for Dr. Greger to address the role that plant based fats have on telomeres. If they are bad as well, when eaten in abundance which some vegans think is OK just because they are “plant based fats”. Addressing this issue, as far as its possible detrimental role on telomeres, might end up helping some vegans stop ingesting so much reckless amounts of plant based fats.

        • Joe

          Neither saturated fat nor cholesterol has anything to do with causing heart disease, and low cholesterol is linked with a long list of devastating health problems. When blood becomes too thick, it abrades the walls of the arteries, causing inflammation. The inflammation draws the cholesterol because the cholesterol is trying to help by covering the abrasion. Cholesterol is a response to cardiovascular inflammation. It can be a predictor of heart disease because it means you are inflamed but it is NOT the cause. Neither cholesterol or saturated fat has anything to do with heart disease. Unhealthy cooked animal fats like trans fatty acids will cause lots of inflammation and can lead to heart disease, but not raw, plant-based fats. It’s not about total cholesterol when predicting heart issues, it’s about total cholesterol / HDL ratio. Also, fat is the primarily fuel for the human body, not carbs (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-metabolic-paradigm-shift-fat-carbs-human-body-metabolism/). Breast milk is 54% saturated fat. Low fat 100% plant-based diets will lead to major deficiencies EPA/DHA, selenium, zinc, iodine, and many times iron.

          • Cholesterol is only found in animal-derived fats or produced naturally by the body. Plants do not have cholesterol but do have essential fatty acids and omegas fats. Note in Dr. Gregers video that telomeres were lengthened with a plant-based diet and some exercise. Animal Cholesterol causes heart disease, athrosclerosis and many other inflammatory artery ailments. please refer to the oodles of videos on the reaction of cholesterol. http://nutritionfacts.org/?s=CHOLESTEROL

          • lele23

            The saturated fat in animal-based foods may be a marker for other aspects of those foods that increase the risk of heart disease, such as l-carnitine.

            The composition of breast milk varies among women and is also dependent on the length of time a woman has been lactating. On average, 45% of the calories of breast milk come from fats of all types, with a percentage of that being saturated fat. 54% of breast milk being saturated fat isn’t likely.

          • Thule

            “Neither saturated fat nor cholesterol has anything to do with causing
            heart disease, and low cholesterol is linked with a long list of
            devastating health problems.”

            Yikes…. Are exactly the cause of heart disease. I suspect you got the “information” from paleo sites or similar, but please make sure you really contrast what you hear. Science is very clear about the direct relation of consuming saturated fat and cholesterol and heart disease (and are being strongly linked to a lot of other diseases). It is also false that is it dangerous to have very low cholesterol, as Dr. Greger commented already:

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/can-cholesterol-be-too-low/

            And also see these blog entries with their videos (lots of them) regarding saturated fat and cholesterol:

            http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/saturated-fat/

            http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/cholesterol/

            Also check Dr. Esselstyn. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/evidence-based-medicine-or-evidence-biased/ Check Doctor’s Note in that video for an introduction.

          • Joe

            Thule, I suggest you read many of the studies I have already posted. Cooked fats (animal or plant) cause inflammation which can lead to CVD but that’s due to the inflammation caused by toxic substances produced by cooking, not raw saturated fat. And high total cholesterol has nothing to do with causing heart disease it’s the total cholesterol/HDL ratio. Someone with a 300 total cholesterol and 95 HDL is at no higher risk for CVD.

          • Thule

            Those “studies” must has been sponsored by the industry. They are going against thousands of other studies. Science already left the point settled long ago.

            One more for you, since you didn’t bother to check the ones referred in this very site.

            http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=381155

            “Each quartile of increased consumption of total fat and polyunsaturated fat
            was associated with a significant increase in risk of new lesions.
            Increased intake of lauric, oleic, and linoleic acids significantly
            increased risk.”

            Dr. Esselstyn didn’t reverse terminal patients by following your ideas, but by eliminating all fats. (And of course, all cholesterol) 100% WFPB diet.

            When the doctors you mention achieve anything like that by doing what you (and they) sponsor then you would be at the same level. But until then, only Dr. Esselstyn can talk, because he CURED them. He keeps taking people that were left to die, too sick to have more interventions. No with drugs, nor with surgery. Can your doctors do the same…? There the challenge. :)

            (Actually your “doctors” keep getting richer by promoting a diet what will fill their clinics with patients who will require medication for life, and expensive open heart surgeries)

          • mbglife

            But Joe, the cholesterol debate to the side for a minute, there seems to be a lot of evidence that animal based fats and proteins are responsible for various diseases, such as arthritis, alzheimer’s, COPD, MS, etc.

            Also, the Rotterdam study, while it appeared to show that cheese was protective of the heart, it was determined that it was the various forms of vitamin K2 that was protective, which is actually a by product of fermentation and can be received through natto (if you happen to like it) or via a K2 supplement, which is how I take it. K2 was found to help direct calcium from soft tissue and organs and the blood and put it back in the bone where it belongs.

            So given all this, why bother with animal products, their risk and negative environmental impacts if you can just eat more cleanly and put yourself at less risk. And if you’re a good cook, you won’t miss much of anything from the animal world.

            Best of health to you,
            Mark

          • Richard

            Joe, try explaining why there is no record of someone with cholesterol levels below 150 having heart disease…

          • Joe

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com… – “Our study provides an updated epidemiological indication of possible errors in the CVD risk algorithms of many clinical guidelines. If our findings are generalizable, clinical and public health recommendations regarding the ‘dangers’ of cholesterol should be revised. This is especially true for women, for whom moderately elevated cholesterol (by current standards) may prove to be not only harmless but even beneficial.”

            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/cont… – “However, convincing evidence from the Prospective Studies Collaboration meta-analysis supports that the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol is a powerful predictor of CHD (27) and that this ratio is more predictive than is LDL cholesterol.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu… – “The Mantel-Haenszel method of analysis of survivorship data showed a significant inverse relation between serum cholesterol concentration and overall mortality in men (x 2/2 = 11.6; p = 0.003) and women (x 2/2 = 7.6; p = 0.02) with odds ratios of 2.3 and 1.9 respectively. Similar significant inverse relations were found for cancer and “other” causes of death. These relations remained significant when baseline age, systolic blood pressure, and the Quetelt index were controlled in Cox’s proportional hazards regression model. The results of this study provide evidence for a potentially deleterious effect of low serum cholesterol concentration. Hence, further research is needed before indiscriminate efforts are made to lower serum cholesterol concentrations in New Zealand Maoris.”

          • Ed

            Joe, you might want to post proper references for your papers. I clicked on your first link, and it just brought me to the Wiley front page. I’d like to take a look at your study, but I can’t because I have no reference, and your links are incomplete.

          • Ed

            Uh oh… incoming Paleo believer. So many factual errors in one post. Ugh.

        • Filipe Coimbra

          For me butters (or oils) are not whole plant-based foods, so this kind of food was not included in my comment (are a lot of vegans that eat really bad – processed foods and fake meat). I think that 3 avocados is abnormal for everyone, if the people don’t see this by them selfs…

        • lele23

          I wouldn’t be concerned about tahini, as most of the fat in it is not saturated. Macadamia nut butter is a little more saturated but is still primarily mono-unsaturated. That said, it’s possible that the saturated fat in animal-based foods is actually a marker for other aspects of animal-derived foods that are problematic.

        • Thule

          Avoid coconut butter and coconut milk, yet whole coconut seems to be acceptable. But I wouldn’t overdo it.

          http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-coconut-oil-good-for-you/

          http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-coconut-milk-good-for-you/

          Regarding avocado, see Dr. Greger comment: “This new tarragon finding reminds me a bit about the in vitro data raising questions about the safety of avocados (Are Avocados Bad for You?) that thankfully appeared to not translate out in a population study. I’ll keep an eye out for new data and post to the NutritionFacts.org Facebook page.”

          Check out: http://nutritionfacts.org/topics/avocados/

      • practical thinker

        Besides the we are meant to be herbivore claim you are locked into an absurd belief that what is natural is good. Natural man was meant to live to about 40. Small pox which is natural killed 100 million people, the plague, all those natural delights. It is all the unnatural things that have extended our lifespan like immunizations, antibiotics, anti cholesterol meds, etc You want to practice a vegan religion fine, but please don’t bring in science, or do a little reading outside of anti GMO and organic food sites and get educated with facts rather than slogans.

        • Filipe Coimbra

          Ok, it’s your opinion. I don’t agree with you. I am extending my lifespan JUST eating “natural” (produced only by nature), whole plant-based foods, so I think nature gave all living beings ways to natural prolong their stay on earth. We, human beings, have the luck to have the capacity to think, explore and learn this ways (but the general people just want the easy way – like you say: “immunizations, antibiotics, anti cholesterol meds, etc.” – and by the way, in the end, eating a healthy diet is the easiest way). Locked are the 99% of the people in this world, unfortunately :(

        • Ed

          Actually, modern technology hasn’t extended the adult human life expectancy all that much. What it did, was reduce the child and infant mortality. The life expectancy of a 30-year old adult in 2015 is not that much longer than the life expectancy of a 30-year-old adult a few centuries ago. If you want to extend your adult life expectancy, the best thing you can do is try to prevent the top 10 killers, and Dr. Gregor has published a video on that topic. It turns out that eating lots of plants prevents almost all 10 of the top killers. It seems the human body runs very well on plants… consuming meat throws a monkeywrench into our body.

          Fun fact: Only herbivorous mammals can develop atherosclerosis. The clues are there. Put it together!

    • The main saturated fat in the plant kingdom is coconut oil, coconut milk, coconut butter. It is the highest saturated fat in the plant kingdom and acts just like butter in your arteries. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-coconut-oil-clog-arteries/

      • AA

        There are a few things that don’t seem to add up here. First in the video above, the first few studies show that exercise lengthens telomeres. But in the study based on the question about the contribution of diet, there was no benefit from exercise. How come? what am I missing?
        Also in regards to coconut. In certain South Pacific cultures like the Kitava in the Trobriand Islands (PNG), heart disease and stoke are nearly unknown. Yet about 20% of their diet is from fat mostly from coconuts. So in this case were they are getting lots of saturated fat,
        they are free from CHD. Why the contradiction???

        • Exercise lengthens telomeres, but plant-based diet AND exercise lengthens telomeres even more than exercise and SAD diet. Are the South Pacific cultures eating the coconut flesh only?….or are they also eating fish, pork, chicken or pressing the coconut to make oil or milk? Just recognize that Cholesterol is only found in animal-derived fats or produced naturally by the body. Plants do not have cholesterol but do have essential fatty acids and omegas fats. Note in Dr. Gregers video that telomeres were lengthened with a plant-based diet and some exercise. Animal Cholesterol causes heart disease, athrosclerosis and many other inflammatory artery ailments. please refer to the oodles of videos on the reaction of cholesterol. http://nutritionfacts.org/?s=CHOLESTEROL Plant-based fats are different, and coconut has the most saturated fat of any plant-based whole food fat. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-coconut-oil-clog-arteries/

          http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-coconut-oil-good-for-you/

          http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-coconut-milk-good-for-you/

          • AA

            The Kitavians eat some fish almost every day with dinner. They use the whole coconut as a whole food. They use every part of it. So they get almost 20% of calories from fat. Most of it is saturated fat from the coconut. They get plenty of saturated fat and eat fish. Their Cholesterol ratios are not so great. In spite of this, they have no CHD. When a few of them have moved to cities and eat the processed food they got CHD.

          • AA

            Also, saturated fat from plant foods/nuts and dairy may not be associated with Atherosclerosis.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396447/

          • b00mer

            In the U.S., 37% of calories from fat is considered a “low fat” diet. So, the Kitavian diet can be thought of as relatively quite low in fat, with only about half what most Americans consume. Not as low as an Esselstyn style diet (10% cal from fat), or Okinawan (6%), but fairly low all the same.

            Also, if a fair amount of that fat is coming from coconuts, then they are getting the benefit of the fiber consumed with the whole food. Quite different from western diets where the main source of fat is fiber-free oils and animal foods. And if the other primary fat contributor is fish, then they may have a higher omega 3 consumption than most westerners as well.

            I eat a whole foods plant based diet, no oil, no animal foods, and some days I can approach 20% if I have a bit more tahini or nut butter than usual. It doesn’t take much of a high fat food to make that percentage jump, no matter how many pounds of vegetables, fruit, beans, and grains I’ve eaten that day. So for Kitavians, if they’re eating lots of coconut and no refined foods, and keeping their fat percentage to only 20%, that indicates to me that they are eating a heavily plant based diet, which really isn’t that high in coconut or fish, compared to whatever other foods they’re eating in terms of starches or vegetables.

        • lele23

          It could be that the saturated fats in animal-based foods are merely a marker for other aspects of meat and dairy that increase the risk of heart disease, such as the inflammation-promoting l-carnitine.

          • AA

            It is possible. It is surprising that dairy in protective which means that it may have something good in it. Here is a different take on this question from Colin Campbell. Apparently, he doesn’t think that saturated fat is much of an issue.

            http://nutritionstudies.org/fallacious-faulty-foolish-discussion-about-saturated-fat/

          • But, again in context of the article and a reductionist viewpoint…it is the animal-derived proteins AND the accompanying high amounts of saturated fat and cholesterol, with a less-likely consumption of Plant-Based wholefoods that contribute to shorter telomere length. The complex actions and nuances allow for recognizing the Wholistic approach necessary when choosing a dietary approach. One thing is clear, the greater the consumption of Plant-Based WholeFoods, the greater opportunity for telomere lengthening….and a little exercise wouldn’t hurt.

      • Joe

        Cholesterol or saturated fat doesn’t narrow the arteries, that’s a myth, inflammation does. When blood becomes too thick, it abrades the walls of the arteries, causing inflammation. The inflammation draws the cholesterol because the cholesterol is trying to help by covering the abrasion. Cholesterol is a response to cardiovascular inflammation. It can be a predictor of heart disease because it means you are inflamed but it is NOT the cause. Neither cholesterol or saturated fat has anything to do with heart disease. Unhealthy cooked animal fats like trans fatty acids will cause lots of inflammation and can lead to heart disease, but not raw, plant-based fats

        • Daniel Wagle

          Look at Plantpositive.com which has a long series of videos which demonstrates a very convincing case for the lipid hypothesis. Healthylongevity.blogspot.com also has good arguments against your point of view.

          • Ben

            Do you know why they call it the lipid “hypothesis” as opposed to the lipid “theory.” You would think there would be enough evidence for the lipid hypothesis to graduate to the level of theory.

          • Daniel Wagle

            Plantpositive mostly refers to it as “diet heart.” He does a very thorough job through many videos of debunking the cholesterol skeptics or “confusionists.”

          • Joe

            Based off tons of scientific data… and no, Daniel, you are the one who is confused.

            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/91/3/535.full – “A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD.”

            http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1846638 – “Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats.”

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2753.2011.01767.x/full – “Our study provides an updated epidemiological indication of possible errors in the CVD risk algorithms of many clinical guidelines. If our findings are generalizable, clinical and public health recommendations regarding the ‘dangers’ of cholesterol should be revised. This is especially true for women, for whom moderately elevated cholesterol (by current standards) may prove to be not only harmless but even beneficial.”

            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/4/684.full – “However, convincing evidence from the Prospective Studies Collaboration meta-analysis supports that the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol is a powerful predictor of CHD (27) and that this ratio is more predictive than is LDL cholesterol.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7357343?dopt=AbstractPlus – “The Mantel-Haenszel method of analysis of survivorship data showed a significant inverse relation between serum cholesterol concentration and overall mortality in men (x 2/2 = 11.6; p = 0.003) and women (x 2/2 = 7.6; p = 0.02) with odds ratios of 2.3 and 1.9 respectively. Similar significant inverse relations were found for cancer and “other” causes of death. These relations remained significant when baseline age, systolic blood pressure, and the Quetelt index were controlled in Cox’s proportional hazards regression model. The results of this study provide evidence for a potentially deleterious effect of low serum cholesterol concentration. Hence, further research is needed before indiscriminate efforts are made to lower serum cholesterol concentrations in New Zealand Maoris.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8353914 – “The results of disclose a sizeable subset of hypocholesterolemics in this population at increased risk of cardiac death associated with lifestyle characteristics.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7772105 – “Our findings do not support the hypothesis that hypercholesterolemia or low HDL-C are important risk factors for all-cause mortality, coronary heart disease mortality, or hospitalization for myocardial infarction or unstable angina in this cohort of persons older than 70 years.”

            http://journals.lww.com/epidem/Fulltext/2001/03000/Low_Serum_Cholesterol_Concentration_and_Risk_of.7.aspx – “These data indicate that low serum total cholesterol level is associated with an
            increased risk of suicide.”

          • Toxins

            Your meta analyses studies showing saturated fat not linked with cholesterol compares diets who have displaced calories towards refined carbohydrates or trans fats/other junk foods. There is not a debate amongst the educated community about whether cholesterol or saturated fat is linked with heart disease. That is a debate for fringe bloggers to have and “broscientists” who think they are smarter then people who research this stuff for decades. Your evidence is incomplete and misconstrued.

          • Veganrunner

            “Broscientists”–I am stealing that!

          • Joe

            None of the evidence is incomplete or misconstrued, saturated fat does NOT cause heart disease. When you cook fats (animal or plant) you turn them into toxic substances such as trans fatty acids and those cause inflammation which promote cause heart disease (CVD is caused by inflammation, by the way). Raw coconut (very high in saturated fat) does NOT. In regards to cholesterol… risk is not determined by total cholesterol, it’s the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. Guess what raises HDL? COCONUT. Comparing cooked saturated fats to raw coconut saturated fat is what would be “incomplete and misconstrued” “evidence”. That’s like saying the vegan diet is unhealthy because you followed vegans who drank soda and ate donuts and oreo’s and therefore concluded a vegan diet is health damaging.

            Cholesterol, coconuts, and diet on Polynesian atolls: a natural experiment: the Pukapuka and Tokelau island studies – “Two populations of Polynesians living on atolls near the equator provide an opportunity to investigate the relative effects of saturated fat and dietary cholesterol in determining serum cholesterol levels. The habitual diets of the toll dwellers from both Pukapuka and Tokelau are high in saturated fat but low in dietary cholesterol and sucrose. Coconut is the chief source of energy for both groups. Tokelauans obtain a much higher percentage of energy from coconut than the Pukapukans, 63% compared with 34%, so their intake of saturated fat is higher. The serum cholesterol levels are 35 to 40 mg higher in Tokelauans than in Pukapukans. These major differences in serum cholesterol levels are considered to be due to the higher saturated fat intake of the Tokelauans. Analysis of a variety of food samples, and human fat biopsies show a high lauric (12:0) and myristic (14:0) content. Vascular disease is uncommon in both populations and there is no evidence of the high saturated fat intake having a harmful effect in these populations”. – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7270479

          • Joe

            You can have what is considered a high total cholesterol but if your HDL is high enough to provide a healthy ratio, you are at not more risk for heart disease.

          • Toxins

            I don’t know where to begin, there are so many things that are wrong or off base with your statements. We’ll start at the top.

            Cooking fats does not turn them into trans fats, that is simply untrue. Oxidizing fats (adding an oxygen) and altering the structural isomer (same chemical formula, just an alteration in structure) are 2 different things entirely.

            Just because saturated fat is more “stable” does not mean it is better for us, in fact, this is a reason why saturated fats are not good for us, because they are so stable.

            “In a comprehensive literature review, we show that the body preferentially upregulates inflammation in response to saturated FA that promote harmful microbes. In contrast, the host often reduces inflammation in response to the many unsaturated FA with antimicrobial properties.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22970557

            Saturated fat alone does not cause heart disease. It functions to raise cholesterol and to bring about inflammation.

            “The saturated fatty acids, in contrast to cis mono or polyunsaturated fatty acids, have a unique property in that they suppress the expression of LDL receptors (Spady et al.,1993). Through this action, dietary saturated fatty acids raise serum LDL cholesterol concentrations (Mustad et al., 1997).”

            http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490&page=432

            HDL is not the protector of heart disease like you may think, and LDL matters far more.

            This study found that while genetically lowered LDL helped prevent heart disease, genetically elevated HDL was not protective.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21358543

            This study found the same thing, genetically raised HDL was not protective.

            “Some genetic mechanisms that raise plasma HDL cholesterol do not seem to lower risk of myocardial infarction. These data challenge the concept that raising of plasma HDL cholesterol will uniformly translate into reductions in risk of myocardial infarction.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419820/

            HDL is known to “scavenge” LDL particles, but to have high HDL cholesterol is not something to see as a positive. A low fat diet decreases HDL because there is less total cholesterol, thus less of an HDL presence. Thus a low HDL may not be a biomarker of poor health, but a high HDL may be an indicator of a poor diet.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC296399/

            Evidence to find that raising HDL is heart protective is lacking, as this major review found. “This systematic review and meta-regression analysis of 108 randomised controlled trials using lipid modifying interventions did not show an association between treatment mediated change in high density lipoprotein cholesterol and risk ratios for coronary heart disease events, coronary heart disease deaths, or total deaths whenever change in low density lipoprotein cholesterol was taken into account. We found a statistically significant, substantial association between change in low density lipoprotein cholesterol and risk ratios for coronary heart disease events, coronary heart disease deaths, or total deaths, adjusted for other lipid subfractions and drug class.”

            They note we should focus on LDL, as this is what has shown to have the most effect, not HDL.

            http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b92

            Yes HDL can draw cholesterol out of foam cells, but LDL is causing this in the first place, and as of now, there is no evidence that raising HDL will protect you from high LDL.

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1001689#t=articleTop

            In regards to your paper, it should be noted that these populations were overweight, and the Tokelauans were more overweight then the Pukapukans. Interestingly the Tokelauans were the ones who ate more saturated fat, so this makes sense. In addition, the groups were too small to draw any conclusions about their rate of heart disease. “The samples of adults on the two atolls are, however, too small for definitive studies of coronary heart disease and vascular disease.” Furthermore, the only means to measure the degree of atherosclerosis was an ECG, which only measures the electrical beats of the heart. Modern methods of determining plaque was not used, nor was mortality data used to see what they died of. The study is EXTREMELY limited and is not even worth noting. Based on this study, it is clear your standards for evidence are very low.

            The most long lived, and healthiest populations have the lowest fat diets, this is a fact.

          • Joe

            Trans fatty acids are just ONE example of unhealthy fats and toxins created by cooking fat, not the only one. Again, you posting studies done on people eating cooked fat diets as well as not taking any consideration to triglycerides is USELESS. You can have high HDL and still be at a major risk for heart disease because the foods you are eating are very inflammatory and toxic, it has nothing to do with the high HDL.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8528755 – “Changes in total cholesterol/HDL and LDL/HDL ratios were better predictors of risk for coronary heart disease than were changes in LDL cholesterol levels alone. When assessed as percentage changes averaged during the first two months of intervention, they were among the best discriminators of risk. Clinicians selecting treatments for intervention should include among their considerations the treatment’s effect on both LDL and HDL cholesterol rather than their effects on LDL cholesterol levels alone.”

            http://annals.org/article.aspx… – “Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu… – “Our findings do not support the hypothesis that hypercholesterolemia or low HDL-C are important risk factors for all-cause mortality, coronary heart disease mortality, or hospitalization for myocardial infarction or unstable angina in this cohort of persons older than 70 years.”

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com… – “Our study provides an updated epidemiological indication of possible errors in the CVD risk algorithms of many clinical guidelines. If our findings are generalizable, clinical and public health recommendations regarding the ‘dangers’ of cholesterol should be revised. This is especially true for women, for whom moderately elevated cholesterol (by current standards) may prove to be not only harmless but even beneficial.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu… – “The results of disclose a sizeable subset of hypocholesterolemics in this population at increased risk of cardiac death associated with lifestyle characteristics.”
            It would be nothing less than foolish to believe that fat, carb, and protein percentages is the reason why some of these cultures live longer than others. They eat lots of plant-based foods, exercise moderately and live happy, low-stress lives. Raw plant-based fats do not cause heart disease and you have yet to show any shred of evidence that they do. You look at studies done on people eating horribly unhealthy diets and associate that with the fat when it’s really the toxicity and inflammation caused by unhealthy foods. Furthermore, your point on how those cultures who ate lots of coconut were overweight only further proves my point in regards to saturated fat not causing heart disease since being overweight would INCREASE their chances of heart disease…. so they are overweight and eat lots of saturated fat and yet no CVD. I’m not saying go out and eat massive amounts of coconut, I’m saying raw saturated fat has nothing to do with heart disease.

          • Toxins

            I am disappointed that you did not coherently read my post, and only offer a quick retort with no value. What you are saying is unjustified, and the studies you present have many issues. You must not let your zeal blind you.

          • Joe

            Not really, unfortunately you mistake unhealthy, inflammatory, toxic diets with fat content and like to pretend all fats are bad. I suggest you do some more research. Take a look at Lou Corona and Gabriel Cousens if you think high-fat diets are unhealthy. They both eat raw living fats and are in excellent shape in their 60’s. These are merely two examples. Again, your conclusions on fat are very, very misleading and illogical. What you are saying is the equivalent to saying vegan diets are unhealthy because you studied vegans eating donuts and drinking soda all day.

          • Toxins

            Because you know old people who eat a certain way does not mean that eating that way will preserve health. Have you heard of 90 year old smokers? The same argument can be used. You do not understand my posts, and you are not even attempting to understand them. You only acknowledged what you like to and ignore the rest with no considerations. There is not substantial evidence that unsaturated fats are inflammatory, this is false. Saturated fats are, this is true. My posts are not illogical, you are just failing to grasp the issue because you have a preconceived idea that cooking fats results in significant harm, and that raw fats somehow are healthful. Have you looked at the nutritionfacts of coconut oil? Please point to the healthy aspects of coconut oil with high quality studies and not from your favorite blogger.

          • Joe

            Why do you keep bringing up some type of blogger? All my posts are scientifically proven, you are just experiencing some major cognitive dissonance right now. WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT RAW SATURATED FAT IS INFLAMMATORY? It doesn’t exist, in fact, the opposite exists showing no correlation between coconut and heart disease. In regards to unhealthy diets, cooked fats are not the only culprit. Unhealthy inflammatory diets cause heart disease, not saturated fat and this has been shown in plenty of huge studies regardless of your irrelevant opinion that they don’t mean anything.

          • Toxins

            It is obvious you are copying and pasting, that’s why. You keep posting low quality studies which you do not understand yourself. If you see sarcastic quotes around phrases in the article something is clearly fishy with the authors’ intentions and should be a red flag for you. I already posted studies indicating the inflammatory effects of saturated fat, cooked or not. The smoke point is high on saturated fats and thus it avoids rancidity. It is important to note that you are under the assumption that oxidized cholesterol and inflammation are necessary for plaques to form. This may not be necessarily true. Even studies that use oxidized omega 6 showed that the the participants did not have any oxidized LDL or HDL, so clearly there is a disconnect with your theory.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16270280

            Inflammation is a process that starts from the gut, as that is where food is absorbed. As I already pointed out, inflammation is upregulated in the presence of saturated fats and promotes harmful gut bacteria.

            It also appears that oxidation of cholesterol is not the whole story for heart disease. Trans fats raise LDL and lower HDL but do not stimulate oxidation. Trans fats are well known to be harmful though, so your story is not in its entirety.
            http://jn.nutrition.org/content/141/9/1673.long

            LDL does not have to be oxidized to enter the endothelium and become foam cells, the beginning stages of heart disease.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877120/

            Indeed, nonoxidized LDL’s typically precede accumulation in aortic lesions, thus LDL does not have top be oxidized.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850639/

            In animal models which are typically accurate predictors of humans, “Substantial evidence has now accumulated for a major role of dietary fat
            subtypes in insulin action. Intake of saturated fats is strongly linked
            to development of obesity and insulin resistance, while that of
            polyunsaturated fats (PUFAs) is not. This is consistent with
            observations that saturated fats are poorly oxidized for energy and thus readily stored, are poorly mobilized by lipolytic stimuli, impair
            membrane function, and increase the expression of genes associated with
            adipocyte profileration (making their own home). PUFAs have contrasting
            effects in each instance. It is therefore not surprising that increased
            PUFA intake in animal models is associated with improved insulin action
            and reduced adiposity.”
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10889797

            In human models,is higher on a saturated fat rich diet, saturated fat increases insulin production, the accumulation of liver fat was also present on a saturated fat diet. See a relationship with the review on animal models?
            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/5/1003.long

            Thus, your statements and beliefs about saturated fat are far too simplistic and as I have pointed out many times before, incomplete.

          • Joe

            You have not shown ONE study proving that raw saturated fat is inflammatory, nice try. You’re trying to save face because everything you thought you knew about saturated fat and heart disease got thoroughly destroyed. Raw coconut is rich in enzymes and a variety of health-promoting phytochemicals that are all destroyed when you cook them. Raw saturated fat from coconuts has been proven over and over again to not have anything to do with heart disease. I’m not going to keep repeating myself. It’s obvious you are stuck in your close-minded, delusional ways and think you know what you’re talking about because you’re an “NF team member” (lol). You are the one with very simplistic views on saturated fat, thinking it causes heart disease without taking into account the inflammatory and toxic diets of those being studied.

          • Toxins

            Oh Joe, you are far too gone. Don’t mirror your insecurities on me, I am not the one who does not understand the evidence I am sharing. That was made clear with your trans fat blunder. I coherently see the big picture, and have shared multiple studies to show that the issues you fret about in diet are not issues and what you accept as health is hurting you. You are looking through a narrow key hole in regards to heart health with no desire to understand basic nutrition. It is clear you have been swayed by a book/blogger. It is highly improbable that you came to these conclusions on your own, as the studies you have presented are shots in the dark. Good luck to you Joe

          • Joe

            I know far, far more about health and nutrition than yourself. Sorry you are stuck in outdated dogma. Go tell Gabriel Cousens that he doesn’t understand the evidence, either, I’m sure you are more qualified than him as well. Typical amongst the “natural health” community, someone gets proven wrong or cant back up their claim (like that raw coconut is inflammatory or causes plaque) and then they retort to insults and misinformed/unintelligent accusations of stealing information from some random blogger. Kind of pathetic on your part. I am not swayed by any one’s opinion, I’ve shown countless studies proving my point both in regards to saturated fat in general and raw coconut not causing CVD. Your ego is only going to prevent you from learning, again I’m sorry are a victim of outdated information. INFLAMMATION causes heart disease and raw coconut does not inflame the arteries in any way, shape, or form. Again, your elementary logic is the equivalent to thinking all vegan diets are unhealthy because you studied vegans who ate donuts and chocolate chip cookies all day while drinking soda and Kool-Aid. By the way, ketones prevent oxidative stress and our primary fuel is FAT and protein, which is why there are no essential dietary carbs but there are essential fatty acids and essential amino acids.

          • Toxins

            To each his own Joe, I prefer not to fall for fad diets and misconstrued science. The more you post the more ridiculous I see your view to be. You continue to report nutrition myth after myth which only circulate through the blogosphere of broscientists who like I said at the beginning, think they are smarter then people who research this stuff for decades. It is evident you have no intention of actually researching the issue. Cherry picking data is not how people should come to dietary conclusions. Good luck to you Joe, I hope your prized blogger serves you well

          • joe

            Again with the petty insults because you simply have no retort for the massive amounts of evidence I have shown. Two studies with nearly a million people combined on top of all the coconut studies on top of the study proving plant saturated fat has zero impact on CVD on top of various paradoxes such as the French Paradox is not “misconstrued” science. I don’t follow any bloggers but it’s clear that you like to use that ridiculous statement when you get backed into a corner. I consider all sorts of evidence but the evidence you are posting does not point to saturated fat itself being linked to heart disease. You think it does because you fail to acknowledge that saturated fat from different sources has different effects on the human body, and you also fail to acknowledge other damaging effects from these people’s diets which are highly inflammatory and toxic and instead just blame it on the saturated fat. Have a wonderful day :) Oh and by the way, Gabriel Cousens has been “researching stuff for decades” and he has the exact same opinion in regards to saturated fat, as do many awakened health professionals who study the latest research and don’t just blindly repeat dietary dogma.

          • Toxins

            Saturated fat raises cholesterol -> LDL cholesterol in elevated amounts forms plaques.

            Inflammation is not required for this process, nor can HDL save someone from developing plaques, as LDL is a far better predictor. That is a convenient excuse for the cholesterol raising effects of coconut oil. These are obvious things I have shared with you. I find it extremely hard to believe you have equally evaluated the research I shared. It was more likely then not ignored by you, because its not something you want to hear. And again, stop accusing me of all these negative things, this only shows the fragility of your argument. Also, look at any fad diet and you will have a leader who has been “researching this stuff for decades”. Your arguments are recycled paleo arguments.

          • joe

            “Coconut fats account for 80% of the fat intake among Sri Lankans. Around 92% of these fats are saturated fats. This has lead to the belief that coconut fats are ‘bad for health’, particularly in relation to ischaemic heart disease. Yet most of the saturated fats in coconut are medium chain fatty acids whose properties and metabolism are different to those of animal origin. Medium chain fatty acids do not undergo degradation and re-esterification processes and are directly used in the body to produce energy. They are not as ‘bad for health’ as saturated fats. There is the need to clarify issues relating to intake of coconut fats and health, more particularly for populations that still depend on coconut fats for much of their fat intake. This paper describes the metabolism of coconut fats and its potential benefits, and attempts to highlight its benefits to remove certain misconceptions regarding its use.” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17180807

            “The Case groups had significantly higher intakes of meats, eggs, sugar, tea, coffee and fruits, but lower intakes of soy products, rice and cereals compared to the controls. Coconut consumption as flesh or milk was not different between cases and controls. The cases had significantly higher intakes of protein and cholesterol, but lower intake of carbohydrate. Similar intakes of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids between the cases and controls indicated that the consumption of total fat or saturated fat, including that from coconut, was not a predictor for CHD in this food culture. However, the intakes of animal foods, total protein, dietary cholesterol and less plant derived carbohydrates were predictors of CHD.” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15563444

            “”Although dietary recommendations have focused on restricting saturated fat (SF) consumption to reduce cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, evidence from prospective studies has not supported a strong link between total SF intake and CVD events… A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. NO ASSOCIATIONS were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396447/

            “Two populations of Polynesians living on atolls near the equator provide an opportunity to investigate the relative effects of saturated fat and dietary cholesterol in determining serum cholesterol levels. The habitual diets of the toll dwellers from both Pukapuka and Tokelau are high in saturated fat but low in dietary cholesterol and sucrose. Coconut is the chief source of energy for both groups. Tokelauans obtain a much higher percentage of energy from coconut than the Pukapukans, 63% compared with 34%, so their intake of saturated fat is higher. The serum cholesterol levels are 35 to 40 mg higher in Tokelauans than in Pukapukans. These major differences in serum cholesterol levels are considered to be due to the higher saturated fat intake of the Tokelauans. Analysis of a variety of food samples, and human fat biopsies show a high lauric (12:0) and myristic (14:0) content. Vascular disease is uncommon in both populations and there is no evidence of the high saturated fat intake having a harmful effect in these populations” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7270479
            This is for anyone not brainwashed by dogma and ego and who has an open mind or interest in seeing the reality of saturated fat and heart disease (which is that they SF doesn’t cause it, either directly or indirectly).

          • Toxins

            You keep recycling studies, some of which I have told you why they should be discounted. It is ironic you keep calling me dogmatic. As I said before, I am not very interested in continuing this conversation on deaf ears. Good luck to you.

          • joe

            Actually, many of them you just blatantly ignored because it didn’t support your weak arguments and others you had extremely poor responses to. What’s your excuse for the plant SF study? What’s your excuse for the Sri Lanka community? What’s your excuse for the two populations who eat massive amounts of coconut and don’t suffer from heart disease? And i’ll respond to your other post here…. coconut oil raises HDL as well as LDL, your point? As I’ve shown with many studies, it’s not high LDL that is a factor in heart disease when it comes to cholesterol, it’s total cholesterol / HDL ratio. As long as you have high HDL to go along with high total cholesterol (say 300 / 90), you are not at risk at all. And as I’ve also shown with many studies, very low levels of LDL is associated with a wide range of health problems. Funny how you call high-fat diets a “fad” even though our body’s primary fuel is FAT, again, a poor attempt at an insult. Please, tell me again what our dietary essential carbohydrates are.

          • Toxins

            We’ve gone down this road before Joe. I already explained why the atoll study was extremely limited in scope, did you forget that or simply not read my response? Similar issues are seen with the other population studies you share, they just record food intake between people who have CVD and people who don’t. Saturated fat was about the same on both, whos to say that those without CVD will not develop CVD? This provides little insight. The fact that fiber is so low in both groups provides a strong indication that the carbohydrates came from unhealthy sources, such as refined carbohydrate sources. These are the types of low quality studies you find to be overwhelming evidence for coconut fat. I find that shocking.

            Lets go down this again, please read what I am posting this time.

            This study found that while genetically lowered LDL helped prevent heart disease, genetically elevated HDL was not protective.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21358543

            This study found the same thing, genetically raised HDL was not protective.

            “Some genetic mechanisms that raise plasma HDL cholesterol do not seem to lower risk of myocardial infarction. These data challenge the concept that raising of plasma HDL cholesterol will uniformly translate into reductions in risk of myocardial infarction.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3419820/

            HDL is known to “scavenge” LDL particles, but to have high HDL cholesterol is not something to see as a positive. A low fat diet decreases HDL because there is less total cholesterol, thus less of an HDL presence. Therefore a low HDL may not be a biomarker of poor health, but a high HDL may be an indicator of a poor diet.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC296399/

            Evidence to find that raising HDL is heart protective is lacking, as this major review found. “This systematic review and meta-regression analysis of 108 randomised controlled trials using lipid modifying interventions did not show an association between treatment mediated change in high density lipoprotein cholesterol and risk ratios for coronary heart disease events, coronary heart disease deaths, or total deaths whenever change in low density lipoprotein cholesterol was taken into account. We found a statistically significant, substantial association between change in low density lipoprotein cholesterol and risk ratios for coronary heart disease events, coronary heart disease deaths, or total deaths, adjusted for other lipid subfractions and drug class.”

            They note we should focus on LDL, as this is what has shown to have the most effect, not HDL.

            http://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b92

            Yes HDL can draw cholesterol out of foam cells, but LDL is causing this in the first place, and as of now, there is no evidence that raising HDL will protect you from high LDL.

            http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1001689#t=articleTop

            The fact that you advocate a ketogenic diet further diminishes your credibility. Because ketosis is natural, does not mean it is desirable. It is our bodies way of surviving in times of starvation, and also occurs in diabetics. Ketosis is a second rate metabolism, and our body switches from glucose to ketones as I am sure you are well aware. Fat provides fewer calories in this state because carbohydrates play a role in the normal oxidation of fat. Ketone bodies yield only 22 ATP whereas carbs provide 36 and beta oxidation can provide 146 ATP. How exactly is that an efficient or more desirable system? It is wasteful, and it’s not something normal organisms do, they make use of every bit of energy they can. Normal energy metabolism in cells is not wasteful.

            It may be used as a short term tool for epileptic children, but it comes with a cost. Here are the noted side effects of a ketogenic diet: Acidosis, inadequate growth (children), hyperlipidemia, hypoglycemia, hyperuricemia, acute pancreatitis, cardiomyopathy, kidney stones, etc.

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2007.00914.x/full

            Try performing an endurance activity in a state of ketosis, your muscles will have been completely depleted of glycogen and will not last very long. In addition, the brains primary fuel source is glucose. Only in times of extreme starvation does it switch to ketone bodies.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/

            The brain actually runs less efficiently on ketones. Researchers randomized people to either a ketogenic or a nonketogenic weight loss diet. Although both groups lost the same amount of weight, those on the ketogenic diet suffered a significant drop in cognitive performance. After one week in ketosis, higher order mental processing and mental flexibility significantly worsened into what the researcher called a “modest neuropsychological impairment.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8589783

            In addition, it is a well-known fact that Red blood cells run exclusively on glucose. They have no mitochondria and absorb glucose in the blood. Systemic RBC death is not something I find appealing. I am sure you are well aware of these issue with your extensive research in nutrition and have a good reason for harming your body in such a way.

          • joe

            Wow, you really have shown how amateur your knowledge is if you truly believe ketogenic diets cause acidosis… clearly you have no clue what you are talking about and it’s not even worth my time explaining all of this to you on a forum. Here’s a hint, there’s a difference between nutritional ketosis and keto-acidosis.

            Your responses to the coconut studies show a clear lack of reading comprehension, or just lots of delusion. You actually believe you are stating something significant when in reality, the evidence keeps piling up over and over again on how coconut does NOT cause CVD. Plant saturated fat is NOT the same as animal saturated fat, yet every study you post is based upon people consuming animal saturated fat. If you cannot understand this, then I don’t know what to tell you. You have in no way whatsoever shown that the studies on coconut and saturated fat were of low-quality, all you’ve shown is an unquestionable belief in dietary dogma and exemplified cognitive dissonance. Here’s another one: http://coconutresearchcenter.org/Abst-Coconut%20oil%20consumption%20and%20coronary%20heart%20disease.htm – “All available population studies show that dietary coconut oil does not lead to high serum cholesterol nor to high coronary heart disease mortality or morbidity rate”. As far as cholesterol goes… once again, the most important risk factor is total cholesterol / HDL, you bringing up studies regarding LDL without taking into account cholesterol ratios is USELESS. Moving onto the ketogenic diet, you’re so lost it’s almost unbelievable… even more dietary dogma. Can you please explain to me why there are no essential dietary carbohydrates?

            Cholesterol and mortality in New Zealand Maoris – “The relation between serum cholesterol concentration and mortality was studied prospectively over 11 years in 630 New Zealand Maoris aged 25-74. Serum cholesterol concentration was measured at initial examination in 1962-3 in 94% of the subjects and whether each was dead or alive was determined in 1974. The causes of death were divided into three categories: cancer, cardiovascular disease, and “other.” The Mantel-Haenszel method of analysis of survivorship data showed a significant inverse relation between serum cholesterol concentration and overall mortality in men (x 2/2 = 11.6; p = 0.003) and women (x 2/2 = 7.6; p = 0.02) with odds ratios of 2.3 and 1.9 respectively. Similar significant inverse relations were found for cancer and “other” causes of death. These relations remained significant when baseline age, systolic blood pressure, and the Quetelt index were controlled in Cox’s proportional hazards regression model. The results of this study provide evidence for a potentially deleterious effect of low serum cholesterol concentration. Hence, further research is needed before indiscriminate efforts are made to lower serum cholesterol concentrations in New Zealand Maoris”. – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7357343

            Increased risk of coronary heart disease death in men with low total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the Russian Lipid Research Clinics Prevalence Follow-up Study – “The results of disclose a sizeable subset of hypocholesterolemics in this population at increased risk of cardiac death associated with lifestyle characteristics”. – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8353914

            Lack of association between cholesterol and coronary heart disease mortality and morbidity and all-cause mortality in persons older than 70 years – “Our findings do not support the hypothesis that hypercholesterolemia or low HDL-C are important risk factors for all-cause mortality, coronary heart disease mortality, or hospitalization for myocardial infarction or unstable angina in this cohort of persons older than 70 years”. – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7772105

          • Toxins

            Good lord Joe, you have fallen for all of the recycled traps that many low carbers use to advocate their diet. Please explain how nutritional ketosis is different from keto acidosis in terms of the end result? One is a condition possibly leading to the other. Even Atkins recommends supplementing sodium and potassium to buffer the acidic ketone bodies to prevent keto-acidosis. How is this a natural state?

            Every coconut oil study you have shared has shown higher total cholesterol, including increased LDL and HDL. I am going to say this again, when I post something, please read it in its entirety. Higher HDL is not protective with high LDL, this has already been discussed before and you keep bringing it up. It is good to see I know where you finally get your science from. The coconut research institute is hardly the neutral source of information.

            Low cholesterol being linked with higher mortality is a perpetuated myth joe, and your study is one of the very few showing this. A larger body of evidence does not show this and mechanisms are understood for why this may be evident in some studies.

            This study showed that low cholesterol was linked with cancer initially but after 5 months this was not so. The reason for this is that some cancer cells absorb cholesterol at a higher rate then the other cells so this would be observed as lower cholesterol. They found in general that lower cholesterol was linked with lower cancer risk. They also note that high serum cholesterol can result in CVD before cancer could be identified, because CVD would kill first in this situation.
            http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/6/1113.full

            It has been identified that the rural Chinese with low blood cholesterol, they also have low rates of cancer and CVD. “Plasma cholesterol concentration was associated directly with all-cancer mortality rates measured in this study. Most notably, these associations were statistically significant for eight different cancers, including colon cancer”

            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/59/5/1153S.long

            It has also been found in a separate study that high cholesterol is strongly linked with prostate cancer.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146741/

            The Russia study is limited in value, smoking and alcohol consumption can significantly effect the results and neither of which was recorded. I am surprised you decided to share this study with this major limitation.

            As for your last reference, it is common knowledge that the elderly have low cholesterol. Life on the standard American diet is a bell shaped curve, cholesterol is low in the youngest age groups, is highest during middle age, and gets low again in the elderly. This demonstrates degraded metabolic function not a magic phenomenon. Thus, this evidence is not applicable to a normal healthy adult as other studies have demonstrated. I am surprised with all your touted know how you did not know this already.

          • joe

            I’ll leave with this to give you more of an understanding on ketogenic diets… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/ – Good luck on your journey and hopefully one day you will become more open-minded and actually question things instead of repeating dogma without looking at the details of the studies you are posting. Your comments on ketogenic diets have proven a lot and it’s time to go our separate ways. Wish you the best

          • Toxins

            A desperate attempt to justify the harms with ketosis, Joe. I am disappointed with you. You have done another fine skimming job of my post. Most everything Anssi Manninen publishes is about low carb diets, I wonder how you managed to scrape this from the bottom of the barrel. He is making some pretty big claims with very few references to overthrow the world of biochemistry. His discussion of glucose metabolisim is mainly in relation to protein deamination for glucose production rather than carbs directly. This is not an efficient system. The body resorts to primary protein degradation when there is not glucose present from carbohydrate sources. It is the last stage of starvation when muscles begin to whither away. He passively acknowledges that LDL does not become favorable on such a diet but follows your unjustified theory of increased HDL, so everything is ok. As I have already presented, genetically elvated HDL is not protective, and genetically raises LDL showed more CVD. A study examining 108 randomized controlled trials, those considered to be the gold standard of research, found raised HDL to not be a significant protector of heart disease, while LDL was a much stronger predictor. His study to overthrow insulin being unecessary for glucose uptake is just one, and involves 6 diabetics. 6 people is a sufficient sample size for you? Low dose insulin caused the liver to release less glucose while higher doses resulted in uptake of glucose by cells. Both doses resulted in ketone bodies not being utilized and FFA’s were not utilized for energy. The body seems quite resistant to entering ketosis doesn’t it? I find it ironic you still think I am close minded while you still share such poor studies only to bolster your claims which you do not even understand. Extravagant claims require strong evidence, and this just isn’t it.

          • Ben

            I used to get “brain fog” when I was on a high-fat Gab Cousins inspired raw vegan diet. My wife also had the issue. I wonder if it was because our brain lacked the glucose needed? We switched to a low-fat raw vegan diet and did much better… But now we are doing even better then that with a McDougall/Fuhrman/Gregor synthesis diet.. What I got from Fuhrman that really helped was eating two pounds of vegetables a day. One pound raw, one pound cooked. That really worked for us. Then just add the starch needed to fuel the days activities. Then add in the advice from Gregor to make it even better.

          • Toxins

            You might have experienced brain fog indeed, as the study I presented noted, there was significant cognitive impairment from the ketogenic diet. I am happy to hear you are enjoying your diet and reaping the rewards of great health!

          • Veganrunner

            I am curious Joe. Do you have a family history of heart disease? I think when you see family members die before the age of 50 from massive heart attacks you kinda take a different approach. (and no not obese individuals. Just old school meat and potatoes) It would be a bit absurd for me to hook onto the Paleo crowd with my family history.

          • joe

            I’m not with the paleo crowd, I follow a 100% raw ‘beegan’ diet (vegan except various bee products). The saturated fat from meat is different than the saturated fat from raw coconut. My point is that raw coconut, despite being very high in saturated fat, does not cause heart disease, and tons of studies prove this. Saturated fat from raw coconut doesn’t cause heart disease, directly or indirectly, in any way shape or form. Also, in regards to high-fat diets, a diet rich in highly potent phytochemicals can completely negate any potential negative effects from the fat (assuming there are any). Sprouts, algae’s, super foods, etc.

          • Veganrunner

            Well that surprises me. But nothing brings out the” back and forth” like a slam on coconut oil or eggs. The gloves come off.
            FYI, Toxins has been doing this for a very long time and he researches and understands this stuff completely. And he is amazing. I am a fan. Are you specifically talking about the oil or the whole coconut? We really shouldn’t be eating oil. In the comment section of Fridays video there is a great video that someone linked where Dr Greger is talking about just this issue. You might find it interesting. Let me know if you can’t find it. I will link it. (Does cholesterol size matter)

          • joe

            Either, believe me, I’ve heard many arguments against oils and they don’t hold any ground when it comes to HIGH-QUALITY oils such as stone-ground or fresh-pressed, extra-virgin, etc. Olive oil is a top longevity food yet I’ve heard people claim oils are “empty calories”… not true. Olive oil contains vitamin E, vitamin K, phytochemicals and healthy fats… coconut oil contains anti-bacterial, anti parasitic, antifungal, etc. as well as lauric acid which gets converted into monolaurin (only other considerable source is breast milk) as well as medium chain fats which have a multitude of health benefits.

          • Veganrunner

            And as we know there are many different kinds of vegans. I tend to eat whole foods plants based so I really only eat oil occasionally when I don’t have control of my cooking. I wouldn’t consider eating oil regularly because for example the olive is better or for a treat the coconut is better.

            Did you find the video I was talking about?

          • Veganrunner

            Breast milk? What are you 1 year old?

          • Toxins

            Olive oil has miniscule nutritional value and causes endothelial dysfunction. Olive oil has minimal phytonutrients and vitmains.
            http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/637?fg=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=25&sort=&qlookup=olive+oil&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=

            It is the definition of empty calories, as are all oils.

            Endothelial dysfunction of olive oil
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109706019127

            “Contrary to part of our hypothesis, our study found that omega-9 (oleic acid)-rich olive oil impairs endothelieum function postprandially.”
            http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/36/5/1455

            All meals, whether high in saturated fat, high in monounsaturated fat, or high in polyunsaturated fat from oil, resulted in unfavorable postprandial vascular effects.
            http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/17/11/2904.long

            All 3 fats were associated with a significant increase in new atherosclerosis lesions. Most importantly, the growth of these lesions did not stop when polyunsaturated fats and monounsaturated fats were substituted for saturated fats. Only by decreasing all fat intake including the polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats did the lesions stop growing.
            http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/263/12/1646.abstract?sid=47d1d016-3c15-43f4-a013-0d10144ef8e3

            Oxidation of fat from cooking does not translate to inflammation in the body as I noted in my earlier posts so clearly it is the high fat content itself.

          • joe

            final post of this thread for myself, just to clear up any oils confusion. you have to consider the QUALITY of oils being used and if this is not mentioned in the studies you post… they are useless. they could be using refined, non-organic, expeller pressed, etc… low quality oils and not the same as using stone-ground extra-virgin fresh oil.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19858733 – “The wide range of benefits associated with olive oil consumption could contribute to explaining the low rate of cardiovascular mortality found in southern European-Mediterranean countries, in comparison with other westernized countries, despite a high prevalence of coronary heart disease risk factors”

            http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/12/78 – “Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with
            reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high
            cardiovascular risk”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24787471 – “In the absence of proven interventions for the primary prevention of atrial fibrillation, this post hoc analysis of the PREDIMED trial suggests that extravirgin olive oil in the context of a Mediterranean dietary pattern may reduce the risk of atrial fibrillation.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16488419 – “A significant decrease in inflammatory markers, namely TXB(2) and LTB(4), after 2 and 6h after EVOO (but not OO or CO) consumption and a concomitant increase of serum antioxidant capacity were recorded.”
            On and on this goes…. have a good day

          • Toxins

            Another fine skimming job Joe, I at least do you the courtesy of reading your references. The first 3 only try to identify what makes the MED diet healthy, and are not interventionale trials, but we’ll get back to that in a moment. I want to address your fourth citation first. If you bothered to read my citations, you would find that my second citation used extra virgin olive oil. Regardless of this, endothelial dysfunction occurred. This was not due to a magical unknowable X factor, but the authors hypothesize that it was due to an increase in triglycerides. In your study, triglycerides increased significantly after olive oil so this is a telling sign. FMD was reduced 70% after the addition of antioxidant vitamins and by 65% after a salad. Thus, olive oil alone appears to be damaging to health but can be covered up to a degree by other factors. The inflammatory markers your study evaluated is not the same as coagulation factor VII and is more likely due to the fat content of the meal rather than any phytonutrient interactions. “plasma FVIIc and FVIIa peaks were approximately 7% and 60% higher after consumption of high-fat meals than after consumption
            of low-fat meals, indicating an immediate prothrombotic effect of the high-fat meal.” Although they did not use extra virgin olive oil for this study, similar effects were observed with the first one I discussed.

            In regards to your first three studies, it has been hypothesized that it is really the higher consumption of fruits and vegetables that are the real reason for lower CVD rather than extra virgin olive oil. “In
            terms of their effects on postprandial endothelial function, the
            beneficial components of the Mediterranean and Lyon Diet Heart Study
            diets appear to be the antioxidant-rich foods—vegetables, fruits, and
            their derivatives such as vinegar, and omega-3-rich fish and canola
            oils—not olive oil.”

          • Jean

            Toxins, Do you know of studies looking at the overall mortality rate of the Mediterranean type diets not just heart disease? I was at a health lecture where the lecturer showed these diet type studies did show heart health benefits but the overall mortality rate didn’t change because cancer rate was raised. Unfortunately I didn’t write anything down and have no idea where to find this info on the web.

          • Toxins

            I am not sure what study specifically you are talking about. What I can tell you is that the MED diet is healthier due to less processed foods and higher intakes of fruits and veggies. It is by no means an optimal diet but definitely an improvement from the standard American diet, which is why it shows benefit when compared. I have also seen studies that compare a “low fat” diet to the MED diet and the MED diet does better. Unfortunately, the “low fat” diet is usually still high fat in these studies at 35%+ so it is hard to find it meaningful.

          • Veganrunner

            Toxins I have to share a story with you. So I am at the Farmers Market one day and this guy is buying raw milk. Ok fine. So I am curious about his raw diet and you will not believe what he told me. He buys the chickens from the FM to eat RAW! Oh man just remembering that story is making me sick!

          • Toxins

            The thought of that disgusts me, I can’t even imagine what that would feel like in my mouth.

          • b00mer

            Your posts however ineffectual in this exchange will be very valuable to other readers who come upon this thread and are open to evidence based arguments.

          • b00mer

            “When you cook fats (animal or plant) you turn them into toxic substances such as trans fatty acid”

            “Trans fatty acids are […] created by cooking fat”

            These statements are untrue and demonstrate a lack of understanding of the most basic natures of fatty acid structure and chemical behavior. I hope you take some time to read the information Toxins has taken the time to provide you with.

          • Joe

            Yes, I was mistaken that cooking fats creates trans fatty acids but nonetheless they DO create toxic substances. Heart disease has nothing to do with saturated fat, its toxic and inflammatory diets. Yes, maybe many of these toxic and inflammatory diets are rich in saturated fat… that doesn’t mean CVD is the result of the saturated fat. Raw coconut fat DOES NOT cause heart disease. Here’s another for you… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396447/ – “A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. NO ASSOCIATES were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk”. Please stop spreading misinformation without considering the entire picture.

          • b00mer

            “Yes, I was mistaken that cooking fats creates trans fatty acids […] Please stop spreading misinformation without considering the entire picture” <- tell me you see the irony here.

            My only comments to you have been that 1) you made a claim about cooking and fatty acid isomerization that was blatantly untrue, and 2) that you made a claim about saturated FAs improving n3 conversion rates without providing any citation as evidence.

            How exactly is that interpreted that as "spreading misinformation"?

          • Joe

            Actually you are spreading misinformation by saying my posts are “ineffectual” which is absolutely not true. I’ve shown over and over again that saturated fat (from raw coconut or coconut oil) and high total cholesterol has NOTHING to do with heart disease. Heart disease is caused by inflammation from unhealthy toxic diets and has nothing to do with saturated fat itself. As far as the coconut oil and increased ALA to EPA/DHA, yeah, it actually does increase conversion… which is also why Gabriel Cousens uses it in his program for this specific reason.

          • Toxins

            You have not shown this at all, you have merely implied it with your faulty meta analyses.

          • Joe

            They’re not faulty, your interpretation is faulty… on top of all this evidence I’m about to post, consider the French Paradox along with many other paradoxes as well… you are blaming saturated fat when in reality it is the toxic and inflammatory diets of many people that causes heart disease.

            http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1846638 – “Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396447/ – “Although dietary recommendations have focused on restricting saturated fat (SF) consumption to reduce cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, evidence from prospective studies has not supported a strong link between total SF intake and CVD events… A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. NO ASSOCIATIONS were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17180807 – “Coconut fats account for 80% of the fat intake among Sri Lankans. Around 92% of these fats are saturated fats. This has lead to the belief that coconut fats are ‘bad for health’, particularly in relation to ischaemic heart disease. Yet most of the saturated fats in coconut are medium chain fatty acids whose properties and metabolism are different to those of animal origin. Medium chain fatty acids do not undergo degradation and re-esterification processes and are directly used in the body to produce energy. They are not as ‘bad for health’ as saturated fats. There is the need to clarify issues relating to intake of coconut fats and health, more particularly for populations that still depend on coconut fats for much of their fat intake. This paper describes the metabolism of coconut fats and its potential benefits, and attempts to highlight its benefits to remove certain misconceptions regarding its use.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15563444 – “Coconut consumption as flesh or milk was not different between cases and controls. The cases had significantly higher intakes of protein and cholesterol, but lower intake of carbohydrate. Similar intakes of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids between the cases and controls indicated that the consumption of total fat or saturated fat, including that from coconut, was not a predictor for CHD in this food culture. However, the intakes of animal foods, total protein, dietary cholesterol and less plant derived carbohydrates were predictors of CHD.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9316363 – “Consumption of coconut and coconut oil was found to be similar in both groups. The groups did not differ in the fat, saturated fat and cholesterol consumption. The results imply no specific role for coconut or coconut oil in the causation of CHD in the present set of Indian patients from Kerala. The exact reason for the high and increasing incidence of CHD among Indians is still unknown.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146349/ – “Dietary coconut oil intake was positively associated with high density lipoprotein cholesterol especially among pre-menopausal women, suggesting that coconut oil intake is associated with beneficial lipid profiles. Coconut oil consumption was not significantly associated with low density lipoprotein cholesterol or triglyceride values”

          • Joe

            Oh and lets not forget all the heart protecting properties found in various HIGH-FAT foods… sesamol in sesame seeds, l-arginine in walnuts, omega-3’s in chia/flax/walnuts, magnesium in tons of nuts/seeds, vitamin E in almonds, and the list goes on and on. Plus SPROUTING your nuts and seeds reduces fat content and turns then fat into fatty acids.

          • Joe

            I’ll put the dagger in with this one… http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23892389 – “Furthermore, VCO administration prevented the oxidative stress, which is indicated by the decreased formation of lipid peroxidation and protein oxidation products like malondialdehyde, hydroperoxides, conjugated dienes and protein carbonyls in serum and tissues compared to other oil fed rats (P < 0.05). Wet processing of VCO retains higher amounts of biologically active unsaponifiable components like polyphenols (84 mg per 100 g oil) and tocopherols (33.12 µg per 100 g oil) etc. compared to other oils (P < 0.05). From these observations, it is concluded that VCO has a beneficial role in improving antioxidant status and hence preventing lipid and protein oxidation."
            In summary in case you missed it, heart disease is caused by inflammation not saturated fat. Raw saturated fat does not increase inflammation and you have zero evidence it does while I have tons of studies proving that high coconut consumption has nothing to do with heart disease. Regarding cholesterol, it's TOTAL CHOLESTEROL / HDL ratio which is the most significant risk factor but of course you can have high HDL and heart disease due to a toxic inflammatory diet (not caused by raw saturated fat). Break free from the dogma and misinformation, regardless of how much cognitive dissonance you are experiencing. Gabriel Cousens and Lou Corona follow 100% raw food diets, that is part of why their HIGH-FAT diets are working, not because they are "exceptions".. because once again, raw saturated fat doesn't cause heart disease.

          • Toxins

            As I pointed out in my post, inflammation is not required for plaques to form, your theory does not stand up to the evidence

          • Joe

            Show me evidence where raw coconut is associated with plaque’s forming. Oh yeah, you don’t have any, but you tons of studies proving that people eating toxic cooked animal products high in saturated fat causes heart disease! (completely irrelevant and useless in this conversation).

          • Vege-tater

            Actually, I think b00mer was implying that TOXIN’S posts were ineffectual, since that is who it was addressed to? Chill!

          • b00mer

            1) Actually I was saying that Toxins’ comments were ineffectual.

            2) I have not engaged your arguments regarding cholesterol and heart disease whatsoever. That topic has been discussed thoroughly and I have nothing to add to it.

            3) “As far as the coconut oil and increased ALA to EPA/DHA, yeah, it actually does increase conversion…”

            ^You have provided NO EVIDENCE for this statement, yet keep repeating it.

            This is an EVIDENCE-based nutrition and medicine site. So when you make claims, expect people to ask for a valid source to verify your statement.

          • Veganrunner

            Joe you might want to research some of the videos on this website and then read the articles linked with the video. I am surprised you believe as you do. There is just so much overwhelming evidence that saturated fat and cholesterol have a role in CVD. Yes inflammation plays a role but you appear to think it is the only important component. Very interesting. What makes you believe the latest goofy stuff that has been printed in the press?

          • Daniel Wagle

            Plant positive uses the term “confusionist,” it wasn’t my words. Siri Tarino, who wrote the first of your studies which supposedly exonerate saturated fat stated here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2943062/# exactly what Toxins says next. It was meant that there is not a benefit to replacing saturated fat with refined carbs. There IS a benefit to replacing saturated fat with whole grains and polyunsaturated fat. Siri Tarino stated, “However, replacement of saturated fat by carbohydrates, particularly refined carbohydrates and added sugars, increases levels of triglyceride and small LDL particles and reduces high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, effects that are of particular concern in the context of the increased prevalence of obesity and insulin resistance. Epidemiologic studies and randomized clinical trials have provided consistent evidence that replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat, but not carbohydrates, is beneficial for coronary heart disease. Therefore, dietary recommendations should emphasize substitution of polyunsaturated fat and minimally processed grains for saturated fat.”

          • Toxins

            I think plant positive is the go to resource for those who are confused about the conflicting messages in media health. I am happy to see you found that website enlightening as well.

          • Joe

            I have lots of them saved, something is going on with the website. Just copy and paste the quotations and you can easily find the source.

          • Joe

            Yes, maybe COOKED saturated fats reduce HDL, not raw coconut saturated fat which INCREASES HDL. Using cooked saturated fat for you claims is baseless.

          • Daniel Wagle

            I think you misunderstood. Siri Tarino states that *refined carbohydrates* lower HDL, she didn’t say that saturated fat does. Saturated fat raises LDL, but it sometimes raises HDL as well. Trans fats lower HDL and raise LDL. Monounsaturated fat can lower LDL while raising HDL, so the Monounsaturated fat is better. I think she is saying you get a better ratio of HDL to LDL with polyunsaturated fat.

          • Joe

            The main point is that raw coconut (high in saturated fat) does NOT cause heart disease. Cooked fats that turn into toxic substances and cause inflammation can lead to heart disease (because CVD is caused by inflammation) but not raw coconut. High LDL (from raw plant based foods, not oxidized LDL from cooked foods) doesn’t cause heart disease, either, it’s total cholesterol/HDL ratio which is the biggest concern. Take a look at Lou Corona if you think raw saturated fat is unhealthy. Gabriel Cousens also follows a high-fat diet and is doing very well.

            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/cont… – “However, convincing evidence from the Prospective Studies Collaboration meta-analysis supports that the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol is a powerful predictor of CHD (27) and that this ratio is more predictive than is LDL cholesterol.”

            http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com… – “Our study provides an updated epidemiological indication of possible errors in the CVD risk algorithms of many clinical guidelines. If our findings are generalizable, clinical and public health recommendations regarding the ‘dangers’ of cholesterol should be revised. This is especially true for women, for whom moderately elevated cholesterol (by current standards) may prove to be not only harmless but even beneficial.”

            http://annals.org/article.aspx… – “Current evidence does not clearly support cardiovascular guidelines that encourage high consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids and low consumption of total saturated fats.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu… – “The results of disclose a sizeable subset of hypocholesterolemics in this population at increased risk of cardiac death associated with lifestyle characteristics.”

          • Toxins

            I wonder if you understand these studies or if you just copy and paste from your favorite blogger. That is clear to me, since your links are out of date and do not work.

          • Joe

            All the studies are real and the links work, this website for some reason wasn’t allowing them to fully be pasted. Just copy the quotations into google and you can easily find the source. Eating raw fat is not a bad habit, you are sadly mistaken. That’s pure Natural Hygiene dogma.

          • We would just like to see the evidence for RAW coconut fat/oils, and raw Olive oil too. We are aware of Dr Cousens viewpoint and use of raw fresh pressed oils ( which most folks don’t have access to). Maybe he will publish his results at some point.

          • Joe

            No problem… and you do realize that olive oil is a top longevity food, right? Oh, and that coconut oil can help reverse Alzheimer’s?

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21669587 – “Dietary coconut oil intake was positively associated with high density lipoprotein cholesterol especially among pre-menopausal women, suggesting that coconut oil intake is associated with beneficial lipid profiles. Coconut oil consumption was not significantly associated with low density lipoprotein cholesterol or triglyceride values” – Remember, the most important thing is total cholesterol/HDL ratio when factoring risks for heart disease.

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21771462 – “It is the unique source of various natural products for the development of medicines against various diseases and also for the development of industrial products. The parts of its fruit like coconut kernel and tender coconut water have numerous medicinal properties such as antibacterial, antifungal, antiviral, antiparasitic, antidermatophytic, antioxidant, hypoglycemic, hepatoprotective, immunostimulant. Coconut water and coconut kernel contain microminerals and nutrients, which are essential to human health, and hence coconut is used as food by the peoples in the globe, mainly in the tropical countries.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17180807 – “Around 92% of these fats are saturated fats. This has lead to the belief that coconut fats are ‘bad for health’, particularly in relation to ischaemic heart disease. Yet most of the saturated fats in coconut are medium chain fatty acids whose properties and metabolism are different to those of animal origin. Medium chain fatty acids do not undergo degradation and re-esterification processes and are directly used in the body to produce energy.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9316363 – (Third population, same results) – “The results imply no specific role for coconut or coconut oil in the causation of CHD in the present set of Indian patients from Kerala. The exact reason for the high and increasing incidence of CHD among Indians is still unknown.”…. oh but it’s not unknown, it’s a toxic and inflammatory diet, NOT raw saturated fat.

          • Toxins

            Study 1: LDL increased with increasing coconut intake, how exactly does this prove your theory? I pointed out before that HDL is not a good predictor of heart health. LDL matters far more.

            Study 2: Yes coconuts contains antioxidants, fiber, etc. Food is a package deal, we shouldn’t consume coconuts in excess because they have antioxidants, fiber, etc when all of these components are readily available in most plant foods.

            Study 3: 30% of saturated fats are long chain.

            Study 4: It tells us nothing. It involved 32 people with CHD and 16 people who were healthy. Both consumed similar amounts of coconut oil and coconuts. CHD risk is high among this population. Who’s to say that the healthy people do not develop heart disease. How is this study a high quality representation.

            And no, there is not a single study that exists that shows coconut oil prevents Alzheimers. Good luck finding that one. The only one I know of that shows any small benefits is this one.

            Placebo and coconut fat takers scored no different on a cognitive impairment test when the subjects were randomized. If they weren’t randomized (which could represent stacking up the placebo group with very sick patients) then the coconut fat consumers scored slightly better after 45 days. After 90 days though everyone pretty much evened out. Does this seem like strong evidence to you?
            http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/6/1/31

            Again Joe, the quality of evidence you have shared is quite low.

          • Joe

            Wow, you are lost in cognitive dissonance, my friend. I’ve posted 5-6 different studies on raw coconut saturated fat having zero link to heart disease (many different populations) and also one showing that PLANT saturated fat has ZERO impact on heart disease. Now you’re just wasting my time. Please explain how study 3 is ‘low quality evidence’. And again, low LDL is not important when factoring heart disease risk, it’s total cholesterol / HDL ratio and low LDL (I’ve posted plenty of studies on this very thread) is associated with a wide array of health problems. I see how you conveniently decided to not reply to my other post showing how wrong you are so I’ll re-post some here…

            “Although dietary recommendations have focused on restricting saturated fat (SF) consumption to reduce cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk, evidence from prospective studies has not supported a strong link between total SF intake and CVD events… A higher intake of dairy SF was associated with LOWER CVD risk. In contrast, a higher intake of meat SF was associated with GREATER CVD risk. The substitution of 2% of energy from meat SF with energy from dairy SF was associated with a 25% lower CVD risk. NO ASSOCIATIONS were observed plant or butter SF and CVD risk” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3396447/

            “Coconut consumption as flesh or milk was not different between cases and controls. The cases had significantly higher intakes of protein and cholesterol, but lower intake of carbohydrate. Similar intakes of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids between the cases and controls indicated that the consumption of total fat or saturated fat, including that from coconut, was not a predictor for CHD in this food culture. However, the intakes of animal foods, total protein, dietary cholesterol and less plant derived carbohydrates were predictors of CHD.” – http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15563444

          • Vege-tater

            All the science and health arguments aside, I’d like to ask a couple really basic, simple questions. One, unless you live on a tropical island where you have access to little but coconut for food, why is this such an issue of contention considering the vast array of natural and healthy options available? And two, help me understand why in the world a person would even want to squeeze out, or otherwise extract the fat (or oil) from a food to consume it separately??? Obviously, cooking purposes would not be a consideration, since the debate centers around the raw food value. Oil is not a food, maybe a nice skin softener. I love me some real coconut occasionally, but eat it like any other nut or high fat food because I don’t need too many extra calories. But oil? Coconut, olive, whatever, WHY?

          • Veganrunner

            Hi Betty,
            I went to one of Dr Greger’s lectures when he was in town. He said it so perfectly. ” We take this perfectly good whole food and press it into oil and throw the best part in the trash.” (I am paraphrasing) Point being we shouldn’t be using any oils of any kind because the best parts are thrown away. The olive itself is good. Oil not. Any thoughts?

        • William Dwyer

          Young children can have heart attacks if they’ve inherited a condition called familial homozygotic hypercholesterolemia (“homozygotic” means from both parents) in which they are born either with very few LDL receptors in their livers or with LDL receptors that are defective, so cholesterol builds up in their coronary arteries and causes a heart attack. This is pretty good evidence that cholesterol is the culprit.

    • marylululight

      Yes – please address this. I wonder this every day as I continue to eat nuts, seeds, and avocados.

    • Darryl

      Avocado fats are 71% monounsaturated and only 11% saturated (comparable to olive oil). Macadamia fats have more saturated fat, about 16%. But coconut oil is 87% saturated, 70% being the 12:0-16:0 saturated fats known to increase LDL cholesterol.

      • Guest

        It all make me think though, and raises a significant vegan-issue…..would someone eating a low-fat vegan diet have better telomeres than a vegan eating a high fat vegan-diet? I, too, know vegans who greatly exceed the RDA for fat. I know the bad side of fat for endothelial function, but what about on telomeres?

        • Joe

          Cholesterol or saturated fat doesn’t narrow the arteries, that’s a myth, inflammation does. When blood becomes too thick, it abrades the walls of the arteries, causing inflammation. The inflammation draws the cholesterol because the cholesterol is trying to help by covering the abrasion. Cholesterol is a response to cardiovascular inflammation. It can be a predictor of heart disease because it means you are inflamed but it is NOT the cause. Neither cholesterol or saturated fat has anything to do with heart disease. Unhealthy cooked animal fats like trans fatty acids will cause lots of inflammation and can lead to heart disease, but not raw, plant-based fats. You linked two studies to COOKED coconut milk with other cooked foods, very poor and misleading on your part. Low fat 100% plant-based diets will lead to major deficiencies EPA/DHA, selenium, zinc, iodine, and many times iron. Also, fat is the primarily fuel for the human body, not carbs (http://www.marksdailyapple.com…. Breast milk is 54% saturated fat.

          • Joe
          • Joe, How did you conclude that, ” Low fat 100% plant-based diets will lead to major deficiencies EPA/DHA, selenium, zinc, iodine, and many times iron.”

            Animal fat and High refined fat & oils are not health-promoting. Even raw cold-pressed plant oils can contribute to high fat loads in the body. A strong plant-based diet, whether raw or cooked is 80% carbohydrates, 10% protein, 10% fats.

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/calculate-your-healthy-eating-score/

            http://nutritionfacts.org/video/good-great-bad-killer-fats/

          • Joe

            Where are you going to get sufficient EPA/DHA, selenium and zinc on a LOW-FAT 100% plant-based diet? By the way, I follow a 100% raw vegan diet. ALA to EPA/DHA conversion is very low and even lower when you consider other deficiencies in the diet which help the conversion rate. Adding coconut oil (saturated fat) to a high omega-3 meal (sprouted chia/flax/walnuts) significantly increases conversion.

          • Toxins

            Evidence?

            “Comparison of the PLLC n23 PUFAs:DALA ratio between dietary-habit groups showed that it was 209% higher in vegan men and 184% higher in vegan women than in fish-eaters, was 14% higher in vegetarian men and 6% higher in vegetarian women than in fish-eaters, and was 17% and 18% higher in male and female meat-eaters, respectively, than in fish-eaters This suggests that the statistically estimated conversion may be higher in non-fish-eaters than in fish-eaters.”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20861171

            In addition, another study showed that despise this “theoretical” low conversion rate, there is no evidence of any harm so, the problem may not be in the conversion rate, but in the assumption that it is low.

            “There is no evidence of adverse effects on health or cognitive function with lower DHA intake in vegetarians”

            “In the absence of convincing evidence for the deleterious effects resulting from the lack of DHA from the diet of vegetarians, it must be concluded that needs for omega-3 fatty acids can be met by dietary ALA. ”

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19500961

          • Joe

            Okay… the issue wasn’t that VEGANS cannot get adequate EPA/DHA, it was that LOW-FAT vegans will have a very hard time doing so. Where are you going to get enough ALA to convert into enough EPA/DHA? Maximum conversion rates to DHA is about 4% for men (without adding coconut oil to a high ALA meal), women have higher conversion rates. Plus, did they do any control’s to see if anyone was supplementing?

          • Toxins

            The conversion rate for those who do not get pre formed DHA and EPA is much higher as I stated above. Requirements are measly, 1.1 grams for females and 1.6 grams for males. A tablespoon of flax does that. Even without flax, a diet rich in greens provides plenty of ALA. See for yourself with cronometer. If you have a diet rich on omega 6 fats then yes, you will encounter troubles converting ALA to DHA and EPA.

          • Joe

            Wow, the people in that study supplemented with ALA… which would obviously give you more of a conversion rate into EPA/DHA. Yes, it says “Short-term dietary supplementation with alpha-linolenic acid increases the proportion of eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) but does not increase the proportion of DHA in blood lipids”… but when you have higher amounts of ALA, DHA is more easily converted. This study is very weak because it isnt based upon vegans getting all their ALA via diet.

          • Toxins

            It was a review of many studies

            “There is no evidence of adverse effects on health or cognitive function with lower DHA intake in vegetarians.”

            So what is your point?

          • Joe

            Then post these “many studies”… my point is you are using vegans who were supplementing with ALA and therefore giving them much higher amounts of ALA than they would get in their diet. Besides, my issue isn’t even with vegans and DHA, it’s with LOW-FAT vegans and DHA…

          • Toxins

            Which as I pointed out was irrelevant on a low omega 6 diet. Leefy greens have plenty of omega 3 for the amounts needed.

          • Joe

            You didn’t point anything out, you posted a study where vegans supplemented with ALA and had higher levels of DHA… that doesn’t do anything to support your point. Needing supplements for your diet means your diet is nutritionally inadequate. Plus, you do realize that there are far more studies showing vegans with low DHA than not, right? Leafy greens have nowhere near the amount of ALA needed to convert into adequate DHA (which in men is around 4% conversion to DHA and I’ve posted the study). Just like you said above to another poster, one study, especially one that didn’t test for supplementation doesn’t prove much.

          • Toxins

            The study you posted did not involve vegan men. Enzymatic conversion is dictated by availability.

          • b00mer

            Hi Joe, I think Toxins already provided a thorough response to the omega 3 issue, but I just wanted to let you know that I get at least 100% of my RDA for Zinc and Selenium daily. But then, in addition to fruits and vegetables, I eat plenty of nutrient dense low fat cooked vegan foods like tubers, whole grains, and legumes. A few nuts and seeds too, but few enough to still be considered a low fat diet overall.

            It might be justified to raise fears of Se and Zn deficiencies in the raw vegan community, but since this site promotes cooked and raw plant based foods, that particular concern is unfounded.

          • b00mer

            Hi Joe, this appears to be your thesis statement in this discussion:

            “Adding coconut oil (saturated fat) to a high omega-3 meal (sprouted chia/flax/walnuts) significantly increases conversion.”

            Could you provide a source to validate this statement? I did only a quick search, but only found comparisons of conversion rates in diets high in either saturated fat or omega-6 PUFA, with saturated fat consumption acting as a control in the context of the public often being told to substitute saturated fat in the diet with omega-6 rich vegetable oils. I found nothing to support the importance of saturated fat in ALA conversion, but rather discussions on the importance of low omega-6 relative to omega-3 consumption.

            Since this discussion was started based on the abilities of low-fat vs high-fat vegans to achieve sufficient ALA conversion, it seems the conversation would be more productive if you provided some evidence to this initial argument.

          • Joe

            Sure…

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9637947 – “The use of ALA labelled with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated fat (raw coconut/coconut oil) conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA.”…. compare that with…. (by the way, women have much higher ALA to EPA/DHA conversion rates)

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323085 – “Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals.”
            You aren’t going to get a lot of DHA on a low-fat plant-based diet, especially if you’re a man. Women stand much better chances due to higher conversion rates. But saturated fat (which raw coconut is rich in) can increase DHA conversion up to 4% as opposed to almost nothing.

          • b00mer

            Joe, the Gerster review article is precisely what I discussed in my previous comment. The abstract in no way indicates that saturated fat improves conversion. What it states is that upon introduction of omega-6 PUFAs, omega-3 conversion rates decrease. The reason saturated fat is mentioned, is because 1) it is a useful control when unsaturated fatty acids are the desired variables, and 2) in a broader impacts context, those eating the Standard American Diet are often told essentially to replace butter and lard with vegetable oils. Upon the switch to omega-6 rich vegetable oils, it is not the decrease in saturated fat that impairs ALA conversion. It is the introduction of omega-6 FAs which compete for the same conversion enzymes.

            The primary article the Gerster review appears to reference is this one by Emken:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7914092?dopt=Abstract

            And a better article which references the Emken study and further investigates the effect of 3:6 ratios vs absolute amounts is this Goyens article:
            http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/1/44.long#ref-6

            You can see in all of these articles, the variables are ALA consumption and LA consumption and how those factors affect ALA conversion to EPA, DPA, or DHA. Saturated fat is a control and absolutely ZERO conclusions are drawn or alluded to concerning the effect of saturated fat on n3 conversion.

            Your statement “But saturated fat (which raw coconut is rich in) can increase DHA conversion up to 4% as opposed to almost nothing.” remains unsupported.

            The second article you reference has nothing to do with this conversation regarding the effect of saturated fat on conversion rates. It introduces a separate topic of whether high ALA/low LA diets provide sufficient conversion rates or if DHA supplementation is needed and Toxins has addressed this in another comment.

            Please stay on topic and provide evidence for your claim on SFA increasing n3 conversion rates, or admit that this claim is baseless.

          • b00mer

            Also, framing phrases from within the article in quotation marks while inserting your own comments such as “(raw coconut/coconut oil)” is disingenuous. Articles of this sort are written in very precise language. Your own interpretations should be clearly written as comments separate from the authors’ own writing.

          • Joe

            See my response to the your comments near the top. I wasn’t trying to be sneaky by putting that in parenthesis, I put it there because raw coconut and coconut oil is high in saturated fat and increases ALA to EPA/DHA conversion. Are you saying that it’s useless for Gabriel Cousens to do so? Or maybe he knows far more than you do because he reads far more literature and works with thousands of people?

          • b00mer

            I understand perfectly why you inserted your own favorite saturated fat containing food into a sentence with the phrase “saturated fat” in it. I’m just saying as a matter of etiquette, when stating a direct quotation of someone else, it’s customary to not change their wording, but rather to provide your own opinions in an obvious separate commentary.

            The quotation is question is from a review article from the International Journal for Vitamin and Nutrition Research by H. Gerster. Gabriel Cousens has nothing to do with it.

    • Joseph

      Emphatic YES. I was a vegetarian for 5 years eating only Salmon and Shrimp occasionally. I cooked vegies in Olive Oil, the prepared foods I ate also had Olive Oil (Humus and Pestos, Pasta Sauce,etc.). The Olive Oil industry over the last 15 years or so has done an incredible job of marketing Olive Oil as a healthy oil. Not True!!!! Avocados as well. I had a Heart Attack 12/6/15. Clogged artery took two stents. The Cardiologist suggested a ‘Mediterranean Diet”. Seriously. Never mentioned anything about eliminating all OIL from the diet. Not once. Had to research to find Dr. Esselstyns book, “How to Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease”. No meat, dairy, fish, OIL, nuts, Also, no exercise required unlike Ornish and Pritikin. Suggested but not required. Bottom line is a strict vegan diet. Oh, my cholesterol prior to the MI was 178. LdL:111, Hdl:29. Today, Ldl:46, Hdl: 42.Please don’t wait until a stroke or Heart Attack inflicts you or a loved one. Take the immediate steps to learn how to eat an Oil Free diet and begin with Dr. Esselstyns book.

  • guest

    Fourth word in Doctor’s Note should be “see” not “say”.

  • Steven Christensen

    I am NOT Adventist, but a significant percentage of my Adventist friends are vegetarian or vegan, and Adventists stand out as having a significantly longer life expectancy than other Americans. Do you know if any studies that attempt to identify the specific aspect(s) of their lifestyles that contribute to this?

    • brad

      hi steven,

      if you put “adventist” in the search box above you will see that dr greger references many studies that have used the adventist community.

    • Darryl

      Even omnivorous Adventists do better than average Americans, likely due to lower rates of smoking, alcohol use, and higher social engagement. However, vegetarian, nut-eating, exercising, healthy-weight Adventists do even better.
      Life expectancy Men Women
      Californians 73.9 79.5
      Adventists 81.2 83.9
      Vegetarian Adventists 83.3 85.7
      Healthy* Adventists 87.0 88.5* never-smoking, vegetarian, exercise ≥ 3 times weekly, eat nuts ≥ 4 times weekly, BMI < 25.90 (males) or <25.20 (females).

    • Julie

      Read “The Blue Zones” by Dan Buettner; an entire section of this excellent book is devoted to researching why Adventists live longer healthier lives.

      • Mindaugas Raulinaitis

        Also, what is interesting, if you fill the questionnaire on the blue zones internet page, and you indicate that you are on the whole food plant based diet, their reply is that you can add 10 years to your life by adding diary and fish…

    • olhg1

      My longest living friends ( around 200) have all been religious living people. They were all lacto-ovo vegetarians and probably could have been healthier if they were vegan. Most of them lived past their 85th birthday and many verged on 100. Not all of these long-lived friends were disease, or illness free, sorry to say.

    • mbglife

      Hi Steven

      The video I’ve included has nothing to do with Adventists’ diets. BUT, it is by one of our favorite presenters of health research: Dr. Greger. In it he explains why a 40 year vegan died of a heart attack, and why vegetarians and vegans were found to be dying of heart disease, cancer, stroke and dementia at the same rates or higher than meat eaters. He then goes on to explain about the the findings of the Lyon France heart health study of 2003 that looked at this, and what it tells us we vegans should do to reduce our risk of all cause mortality by 70%. It’s just a few simple changes. Since the video is 1 hour 16 mins, I’ll give you the spoilers: balance omega 3 to omega 6 ratios (ideally 1 to 1, but no less than 1 to 4); and take the following supplements: B12, B6, and folate (but not in the form of folic acid). Eat a nutritious whole food diet. That’s it. The suggestions even help improve the odds for our die hard (pun intended) omnivore loved ones.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7KeRwdIH04

      • Han

        He also recommends to add some vitamin D in wintertime.

  • Dawn A.

    I laughed out loud so hard that I had to pause the video because I could no longer hear Dr. Gregor! I bet that’s good for the telomeres too.

  • Michael Errico

    I also was wondering if plant-based saturated fats such as those in peanut butter or perhaps palm oil shorten telomere length? I know it’s better if we cut out palm oil, though it is in many vegan comfort foods that many vegans eat. If these fats are detrimental not only to our hearts, but also to our very DNA, then I believe that would create some impetus to finally cut them out for good for many people who currently justify consumption because it is plant-based and moderate. Thank you so much for your work! We appreciate it!

    • HungryShrew

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23616516

      Intake of small-to-medium-chain saturated fatty acids is associated with peripheral leukocyte telomere length in postmenopausal women.
      ‘ Intakes of nonskim milk, butter, and whole-milk cheese (major sources of SMSFAs) were all inversely associated with TL. No significant associations were found with long-chain saturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, and polyunsaturated fatty acids.’

      LCSFA seem to be ok…so palm oil n coco oil maybe ok?

      I hope so. [apologies for the double post]

      • Joe

        Those aren’t the same as studying raw, unrefined, extra virgin coconut oil. Very misleading.

        • Joe – do you have any studies that look at raw, unrefined, extra virgin coconut oil? If so, Dr. Greger would be happy to read the study and compile the findings and relate them to the many studies on fats & oils that have been done and that he has read of which the links have been posted above in this string. To clarify your position and belief, my questions to you are: How do you get coconut oil other than by pressing a whole lot of them? Is that still a whole plant-based food? Is oil a food? Does the saturated fat disappear when you cold-press raw coconut flesh to produce oil? Isn’t pressing oil under pressure, a form of refining the product or extracting the product to produce something else, namely oil?

          • Joe

            Coconut oil has lots of health benefits and saturated fat doesn’t cause heart disease. Look up at my others posts where I post several huge studies showing this. Despite Natural Hygiene dogma, coconut oil is not “empty calories” and neither is olive oil.

          • Toxins

            Again, where is your evidence for the health benefits of coconut oil and for saturated fat?

          • HungryShrew

            From the same study….

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23616516
            ‘Except for lauric acid, all other individual SMSFAs were inversely associated with TL (P < 0.05).'

            Lauric acid, a medium-chain fatty acid found mainly in coconut oil.

          • Toxins

            Interesting Hungry shrew, but remember food is a package deal. We can get the benefits of telomere lengthening simply by consuming a plant centered diet. Keep in mind that coconut oil contain around 30% long chain sat. fats so its not pure medium chain fats.

          • HungryShrew

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23616516
            ‘ Intakes of nonskim milk, butter, and whole-milk cheese (major sources of SMSFAs) were all inversely associated with TL.

            No significant associations were found with long-chain saturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, and polyunsaturated fatty acids.’

            Long-chain saturated fatty acids seem to ok re. telomeres?

            I eat red palm oil and can’t see it’s place in this clearly??

            ——————————–also——- random thoughts————
            Dr Greger mentioned fish was inversely associated with TL. Fish no LCSFA [?]. Was the fish omega-3 rich? Was there a inverse TL relationship with fish even in the presence of omega-3 in the fish? [considering the likely positive omega-3 TL relationship]

            What else about animal products could be inversely rel. to TL excluding the sat. fats? [inflamation??]

          • Toxins

            I am referring to chronic disease such as heart disease, cancer, etc. These foods will not protect you from that, palm oil especially is not heart healthy. Again, food is a package deal.

          • HungryShrew

            ….*inversely* associated with TL…

          • Toxins

            I understand that, but I want you to understand the concept of food as a “package deal”. These foods are not automatically healthy because one study says they are associated with longer telomeres.

          • J.

            Seriously… I don’t get some of these people’s arguments against a plant based diet just to support their own bad habits?… So if you consume those nasty products that are supposedly associated with TL, but might/probably die that much sooner due to some other disease? That’s like people who try and supplement tons of isolated vitamins and minerals… and still eat a shitty SAD diet… You know instead of intentionally killing yourself and having to work your ass off at it why not just switch to the “right” choice… Of which we all know by now.

      • Michael Errico

        So what type of saturated fatty acids are in nuts and palm oil are they short or medium or long? The study only mentions animal sources. Are the plant sources any better, do they consist proportionally of more longer chain saturated fatty acids? Thanks.

  • HungryShrew

    video– ‘What was it about the Ornish intervention that so powerfully protected telomeres after just three months? We saw that just stress management seems to help, but what about the diet versus exercise. Was it the plant-based diet, was it the walking 30 minutes a day—or, was it just because of the weight loss?’

    …or was it the 3g per day of fish oil? https://www.ucsf.edu/sites/default/files/legacy_files/blackburn_and_ornish_lancet_2008.pdf

    I wish I didn’t have to check everything that Dr Greger tells us…still interesting video.

    • a very valid point HungryShrew because there are all kinds of studies that do not support the use of fish or fish oil. http://nutritionfacts.org/?s=fish+oil

      However, there is the work of T. Colin Campbell in The China Study which does report that staying below a 5% level of animal-derived proteins will provide a 90-100% reversal in degenerative disease compared to say the 50% or less reversal experienced with the Mediterranean diet lifestyle. http://nutritionstudies.org/clinical-tools/facilitating-change/

      Without knowing for sure, it is possible that Dr. Ornish may have suggested his patients in the study consume fish oil, whether they did it or not is unknown…. and, whether this 3g recommendation influenced the study and the lengthening of telomeres.

      • HungryShrew

        ‘…staying below a 5% level of animal-derived proteins’
        ok, but hat doesn’t apply to fish oil.

        ‘may have suggested his patients in the study consume fish oil’

        It was part of the program. Just like the plant based diet and exercise.

        The Ornish study is so well known, it was a mistake for Dr Greger to mishandle it as delivered in the video.

        • How do you conclude that fish oil is not an animal-derived protein? Just because the program was conducted, does not mean that all of the subjects took fish oil, how much taken, or what brand, or if they overlooked the reporting of taking fish oil or eating fish for that matter. My understanding is the point of the Telomere Video is to show support for Eating more plant-based whole foods to increase your telomere length, and adding a bit of exercise doesn’t hurt. It is the dietary choices that improve telomere length not eating crap and exercising yourself to death. Drowning in this minutiae is complicating matters and confusing the simplicity of the Dr. G’s video.

          • HungryShrew

            3g of fish oil daily.
            Not fish, fish oil. Not protein. Am I mistaken?

            ‘the point of the Telomere Video is to show support for Eating more plant-based whole foods to increase your telomere length’

            Yes, that is the point of the video. Exactly; Regardless of whether it was the plant-based whole foods that increased the telomere length.

          • Han

            fish oil is oil indeed. Dr Greger has a nice video on the subject and recommends eating flax seeds. Freshly ground or properly chewed. Stored in the fridge.

            I also disrecomend against fish oil since it’s killing fish, and we already are killing those beasts in such a massive scale that they are threatened species and evolving to stay small.

  • HungryShrew

    video–‘What was it about the Ornish intervention that so powerfully protected telomeres after just three months? We saw that just stress management seems to help, but what about the diet versus exercise. Was it the plant-based diet, was it the walking 30 minutes a day—or, was it just because of the weight loss?’

    He forgot to mention the 3g per day of fish oil provided on the Ornish intervention.

    • MaryFinelli

      Omega-3s can be obtained from plant sources, which is much more healthful, humane, and environmentally responsible than obtaining them by eating fish. Rich sources include: freshly ground flaxseed, flaxseed oil, chia seeds, hemp seeds, walnuts, purslane, and algae supplements – algae being the source from which fish obtain omega-3.

      Mary Finelli
      FishFeel.org

      • HungryShrew

        ‘more healthful’

        At best that’s disputed.

        • MaryFinelli

          For one thing, contamination with bioaccumulated toxins, such as methylmercury, isn’t nearly the risk in plant sources as it is with fish oil. Rancidity is also much more of a problem with fish oil, which results in free radicals and potential carcinogenicity. Skip the fish oil, stick with the plant sources, for everyone’s sake.

          • HungryShrew

            There are dozens of studies suggesting fish oil omega-3 is superior, they are not hard to find.

            You are passionate about fish welfare; Ok, but make the argument on ethical grounds.

          • MaryFinelli

            There are many very valid reasons to avoid fish and fish oil -and all animal products- for health, environmental, and ethical reasons.

          • HungryShrew

            And valid reasons to take fish oil, for health.

            We are going in circles now. I bow out.

          • MaryFinelli

            There aren’t valid reasons to take fish oil since any benefits from it can be obtained from alternatives sources that don’t cause such needless harm to others.

          • HungryShrew

            Harvard Medical School
            http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Why-not-flaxseed-oil.shtml

            [really bowing out now. I can see Mary is intractable]

          • MaryFinelli

            I am intractable in regard to preventing gratuitous cruelty.

            If you’re interested in getting concentrated doses of omega-3s, algae supplements are comparable in potency to fish oil:
            http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS72_OCE2%2FS0029665113001079a.pdf&code=b2de3a4a56c8519d799cf8f415584175

            It just doesn’t have the saturated fat, cholesterol, potential toxins, environmental cost or cruelty that comes with fish and fish oil.

            a vegan diet will help keep you healthier in the first place.

          • Mark Caponigro

            Thanks for the advice about the algae supplements. I shall look for them at the local vitamin store.

          • Mark Caponigro

            According to the Wikipedia article on Omega-3, you are right: there is more than one kind of Omega-3 molecule, and the kind found in plant foods is not nearly as beneficial for human health as the kind found in fish. But the ethical objections against contributing to the exploitation of fish are still serious, and cannot be so easily neutralized. In fact the kinds of Omega-3 molecules found in fish are also found in krill, phytoplankton and algae, it seems, so hopefully Omega-3 supplements made from those sources will become more readily available as well as more affordable. (Krill of course are animals, viz. crustaceans; killing them would certainly not be a morally neutral action; but without more careful examination, it seems reasonable to believe that their level of sentience is a good bit lower than that of fish.)

        • Han

          Sources please.

  • HungryShrew

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23616516

    Intake of small-to-medium-chain saturated fatty acids is associated with peripheral leukocyte telomere length in postmenopausal women.
    ‘ Intakes of nonskim milk, butter, and whole-milk cheese (major sources of SMSFAs) were all inversely associated with TL. No significant associations were found with long-chain saturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, and polyunsaturated fatty acids.’

    LCSFA seem to be ok…so palm oil n coco oil maybe ok?

    I hope so.

    • HungryShrew

      Palm oil isn’t long chain I think? So maybe not ok?

      • J.

        Oils are basically empty calories that clog up your arteries and contribute to atherosclerosis.

  • Guest

    I wonder if this would include the saturated fat from plants, like nuts.

    • J.

      The “WFPBD” includes nuts… You could review the study to verify if they included nuts into their diet and based on that information we could see whether or not the healthy fats in nuts/seeds/avocado are beneficial in protecting our telomere’s length

  • joe

    telemere is not the whole story otherwise u will have 50 year old runners with telemeres at 20 year old immortals.

  • Ilana

    Awesome info. Would also like info on medical (and non medical) marijuana.

  • Jane’s Addiction

    The best way, I think, to reach the average American is to appeal to their vanity, not to their health, or to the plight of animals, or to the needs of the environment—all of these are too abstract to elicit emotions in most people, and in my experience most Americans are governed by their emotions and not by reason. (So, to people like I’m describing, medical, ethical, and ecological facts don’t matter—feelings do.) So this is where this video comes in! If you tell people, especially people in their, say, 40s on up, that butter is aging them, well then they just might put down the butter knife!

  • Veganrunner

    Perfectly said! And I agreed. Coconut oil is the best skin “lotion” out there! Love it!!

    • J.

      I heard your skin is one of your biggest “organs” is this true and how does putting stuff on your skin, in this example saturated fat, affects your body as a whole? does it get absorbed and “digested” or is coconut oil safe to use on your skin to prevent sun burn?…

      • Toxins

        There is limited evidence that babies were cured of fat deficiency (or something of that nature) by applying it topically to the skin, so there is some evidence that topical applications may translate to nutritional realizations. I don’t know the details of this though.

  • S Markowitz

    I found this presentation to be an excellent learning opportunity in understanding some of the new research on health and longevity. It was also quite persuasive coming from a medical professional with so much knowledge and back-up research as shown on the flick. Science vs. stupid choices… can make a big difference in one’s lifespan and I, will take this information to heart.

  • runnermom66

    I sent this video to a friend because I’ve been telling her that “telomeres are where it’s at”….but she then sent me this excerpt from a genome study done at UCSF. In short, it states that while longer telomeres are beneficial in so many ways, they are also linked to rare but almost always fatal gliomas (brain cancer). My personal thought is that I am more concerned with heart disease and diabetes….but I am wondering what your thoughts are.

  • runnermom66

    oops…forgot to include the study link. it’s a very short read:

    http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/06/114956/longer-telomeres-linked-risk-brain-cancer

    • John L Brown

      Sierra Science is a Company that does research on antiaging. On the ‘About Us ‘ page they state: “Sierra Sciences, LLC, an 11-year old Reno biotech company, is always looking for people experienced in Protein Chemistry, Cellular Biology, Molecular Biology, High-throughput Drug Screening (HTS) and Pharmaceutical Drug Development. We ask that interested people please apply. Our lab is located in the middle of Northern Nevada’s technology district! With over 10,000 square feet, our lab is a prominent state-of-the-art research center in the area.” They have a Proof of Concept page entitled, “Potential Therapeutic Applications of telomere Biology.” Below is section ‘I’ of that information, and the relevant citations.

      I. Telomerase doesn’t cause cancer (although cancer causes telomerase).

      More than 90% of human cancer cell lines express telomerase.19 For this reason, there has been some speculation that expressing telomerase in normal human cells could increase the risk of cancer. However, studies over the last ten years have consistently refuted this speculation.

      Shortly after the discovery of human telomerase, several publications reported that telomerase doesn’t cause cancer, including a 1999 paper by Jerry W. Shay and Woodring E. Wright at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center20 and a 1999 paper published by Geron Corporation in collaboration with the Salk Institute and the University of California, San Francisco.21 In 2002, Calvin Harley at Geron Corporation published a review paper on the relationship between telomerase and cancer, evaluating 86 publications and concluding that telomerase was not a cancer-causing oncogene and did not cause cells to lose growth control and become cancerous.22

      More recently, scientists have discovered evidence that short telomeres are a significant risk factor for cancer. In 2009, a joint study between Georgetown University and the National Cancer Institutes concluded that short telomeres lead to telomere dysfunction, which leads to chromosome-arm instabilities, which leads to cancer.23 The implication is that keeping telomeres long could eliminate this risk factor and prevent the onset of many cancers. In July of 2010, an international team of doctors compared telomere length against incidences of cancer in 787 patients, and found that subjects with the shortest telomeres had three times the incidence of cancer compared to patients with longer telomeres. Further, short telomeres increased the lethality of cancer: mortality rates of the subjects doubled with every one-standard-deviation decrease in telomere length.24

      This research suggests that keeping telomeres long through telomerase activation could likely prevent cancer and/or increase the chance of survival for individuals who develop cancer.

      19. Kim, N. W., M. A. Piatyszek, et al. (1994). Specific association of human telomerase activity with immortal cells and cancer. Science 266(5193): 2011-2015

      20. Morales, C. P., S. E. Holt, et al. (1999). Absence of cancer-associated changes in human fibroblasts immortalized with telomerase. Nat Genet 21(1): 115-118.

      21. Jiang, X.-R., G. Jimenez, et al. (1999). Telomerase expression in human somatic cells does not induce changes associated with a transformed phenotype.Nat Genet 21(1): 111-114.

      22. Harley, C. B. (2002). Telomerase is not an oncogene. Oncogene 21(4): 494-502.

      23. Zheng, Y.-L., N. Hu, et al. (2009). Telomere attrition in cancer cells and telomere length in tumor stroma cells predict chromosome instability in esophageal squamous cell carcinoma: a genome-wide analysis. Cancer Res 69(4): 1604-14

      24. Willeit, P., J. Willeit, et al. (2010). Telomere length and risk of incident cancer and cancer mortality. JAMA 304(1): 69-75.

      I trust this answers your question. As well I have provided a particularly convincing and relatively current study that addresses this question. In brief, it states in the conclusion: “In this study population, there was a statistically significant inverse relationship between telomere length and both cancer incidence and mortality.

      Telomere length and risk of incident cancer and cancer mortality: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20606151

  • Melissa Velasco

    The product I have been using with proven science that is 100% vegan, natural and gluten free is http://agiftfromus.com/honoryourbody/xalo-ageless/ you will hear Dr. Templeman talking about it!

  • Doug Smith

    Any past discussion on the pros & cons of taking CoQ 10?
    Thanks

    • Joseph Gonzales R.D.

      Thanks for reposting, it means a lot and saves me so much time! What I see from a few studies is that CoQ 10 is not effective, but it is not necessarily unsafe. “Coenzyme Q10 was safe and well tolerated in this population, but showed no evidence of clinical benefit.” Of course this was in spefic population of patients with Parkinson’s disease. For heart disease, there is inconclusive evidence for its efficacy. Hopefully others can jump in with more research. My thought is that Dr. Greger is very aware of the research on many supplements and until one jumps out and screams attention, it’s best to stick to whole, natural foods. If interested, click here for Dr. Greger’s Optimal Nutrition Recommendations. Thanks again for your post! Let me know if this helps?

      Sincerely,
      Joseph

  • alio loco

    About two months ago (before discovering NutiritionFacts.org and buying “How Not to Die”) I started taking a supplement named Basis. Basis is manufactured by a company known as Elysium Health, LLC. The company’s website is http://www.elysiumhealth.com. Basis is marketed as an anti-aging supplement. According to an article in “MIT Technology Review” by Karen Weintraub, dated Feb., 2, 2015, Basis contains a chemical precursor, nicotinamide riboside, to nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide, or NAD. NAD is a compound that cells use to carry out metabolic reactions like releasing energy from glucose. The compound is believed to cause some effects similar to a diet that is severely short on calories—a proven way to make a mouse live longer. Elysium claims that the human body can transform nicotinamide riboside into NAD and use it. Basis also contains pterostilbene, an antioxidant that Elysium’s founders say stimulates sirtuins in a different way. I AM SURE I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON TAKING BASIS. So, I believe the community would benefit from Dr. Gregor’s thoughts about this supplement. I am paying $50.00 a month for Basis. I AM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED TO KNOW IF I COULD HURT MY HEALTH IF I CONTINUE TO TAKE BASIS.

  • alio loco

    About seven months ago (before discovering NutiritionFacts.org
    and buying “How Not to Die”) I started taking a supplement named Basis.
    Basis is manufactured by a company known as Elysium Health, LLC. The
    company’s website is http://www.elysiumhealth.com.
    Basis is marketed as an anti-aging supplement. According to an
    article in “MIT Technology Review” by Karen Weintraub, dated Feb., 2,
    2015, Basis contains a chemical precursor, nicotinamide riboside, to
    nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide, or NAD. NAD is a compound that cells
    use to carry out metabolic reactions like releasing energy from glucose.
    The compound is believed to cause some effects similar to a diet that
    is severely short on calories—a proven way to make a mouse live longer.
    Elysium claims that the human body can transform nicotinamide riboside
    into NAD and use it. Basis also contains pterostilbene, an antioxidant
    that Elysium’s founders say stimulates sirtuins in a different way. I AM
    SURE I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON TAKING BASIS. So, I believe the community
    would benefit from Dr. Gregor’s thoughts about this supplement. I am
    paying $50.00 a month for Basis. I AM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED TO KNOW IF
    I COULD HURT MY HEALTH IF I CONTINUE TO TAKE BASIS.