Keto Diets: Muscle Growth & Bone Density

Keto Diets: Muscle Growth & Bone Density
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Ketogenic diets found to undermine exercise efforts and lead to muscle shrinkage and bone loss.

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

An official International Society of Sports Nutrition position paper covering keto diets notes the “ergolytic” effects of keto diets on both high- and low-intensity workouts. Ergolytic is the opposite of ergogenic. Ergogenic means performance-boosting, whereas ergolytic means athletic performance-impairing.

For non-athletes, ketosis may also undermine exercise efforts. Ketosis was correlated with increased feelings of perceived effort and fatigue and mood disturbances during physical activity, suggesting that the ability and desire to maintain sustained exercise might be adversely impacted in individuals adhering to ketogenic diets for weight loss.

I already mentioned the shrinkage of measured muscle size among CrossFit trainees. So, a ketogenic diet may not just blunt the performance of endurance athletics, but strength training as well. Have people do eight weeks of all the standard upper and lower body training protocols—bench press, pull-ups, squats, deadlifts, and, no surprise, you boost muscle mass—unless you’re on a keto diet, in which case there was no significant change in muscle mass after all that effort. Those randomized to the non-ketogenic diet added about three pounds of muscle, whereas the same amount of weightlifting on the keto diet tended to subtract muscle—an average loss of about 3.5 ounces of muscle. How else could you do eight weeks of weights and not gain a single ounce of muscle, but on a ketogenic diet? Even keto diet advocates call bodybuilding on a ketogenic diet an “oxymoron.”

What about bone loss? Sadly, bone fractures are one of the side effects that disproportionately plagues children placed on ketogenic diets, along with growth stunting and kidney stones. Ketogenic diets may cause a steady rate of bone loss, as measured in the spine, presumed to be because ketones are acidic; and so, keto diets can put people in what’s called a “chronic acidotic state.”

Some of the case reports of children on keto diets are truly heart-wrenching. One nine-year-old girl seemed to get it all—osteoporosis, bone fractures, kidney stones—and then she got pancreatitis and died. Pancreatitis can be triggered by having too much fat in your blood. A single high-fat meal can cause a quintupling of the spike in triglycerides in your bloodstream within hours of consumption, which can put you at risk for inflammation of the pancreas. She had a rare genetic disorder called “glucose transporter deficiency syndrome,” where you’re born with a defect in ferrying blood sugar into your brain. This can result in daily seizures starting in infancy, but a ketogenic diet can be used as a way to sneak fuel into their brains. So, a ketogenic diet can be a godsend for the one in 90,000 families stricken with this disorder.

As with anything in medicine, it’s all about risks versus benefits. As many as 30 percent of patients with epilepsy don’t respond to anti-seizure drugs, and the alternatives aren’t pretty, including things like brain surgery. This can mean implanting deep electrodes through the skull, or even removing a lobe of your brain. This can obviously lead to serious side effects. But, so can having seizures every day. So, if a ketogenic diet helps with seizures, the pros can far outweigh the cons.

For those just choosing a diet to lose weight, though, the cost/benefit analysis would really seem to go the other way. Thankfully, you don’t need to mortgage your long-term health for short-term weight loss. We can get the best of both worlds by choosing a healthy diet.

Remember that study that showed that the weight loss after being told to eat the low-carb Atkins diet for a year was almost identical to those told to eat the low-fat Ornish diet? The authors concluded: “This supports the practice of recommending any diet that a patient will adhere to in order to lose weight.” That seems like terrible advice. There are regimens out there, like “The Last Chance Diet which [evidently] consisted of a liquid formula made from leftover byproducts from a slaughterhouse [that] was linked to approximately 60 deaths.” Well, it did promise to change people’s lives. An ensuing failed lawsuit from one widower laid the precedent for the First Amendment protection for deadly diet books.

It’s possible to construct a healthy low-carb diet—or an unhealthy low-fat diet (a diet of cotton candy would be zero fat), but the health effects of a typical low-carb ketogenic diet, like Atkins, are vastly different from a low-fat plant-based diet, like Ornish’s. Not only would they have diametrically opposed effects on cardiovascular risk factors in theory, based on the fiber, saturated fat, and cholesterol contents of their representative meal plans, when actually put to the test, low-carb diets were found to impair artery function. Over time, blood flow to the heart muscle itself is improved on an Ornish-style diet, and diminished on a low-carb diet. Heart disease tends to progress on typical weight-loss diets, actively worsen on low-carb diets, but may be reversed by an Ornish-style diet.

Given that heart disease is the #1 killer of men and women, “recommending any diet that a patient will adhere to in order to lose weight” seems irresponsible. Why not tell people to smoke? Cigarettes can cause weight loss too, as can tuberculosis and a good meth habit, but the goal of weight loss is not to lighten the load for your pallbearers.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Dmitry Lobanov via adobe stock photos. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

An official International Society of Sports Nutrition position paper covering keto diets notes the “ergolytic” effects of keto diets on both high- and low-intensity workouts. Ergolytic is the opposite of ergogenic. Ergogenic means performance-boosting, whereas ergolytic means athletic performance-impairing.

For non-athletes, ketosis may also undermine exercise efforts. Ketosis was correlated with increased feelings of perceived effort and fatigue and mood disturbances during physical activity, suggesting that the ability and desire to maintain sustained exercise might be adversely impacted in individuals adhering to ketogenic diets for weight loss.

I already mentioned the shrinkage of measured muscle size among CrossFit trainees. So, a ketogenic diet may not just blunt the performance of endurance athletics, but strength training as well. Have people do eight weeks of all the standard upper and lower body training protocols—bench press, pull-ups, squats, deadlifts, and, no surprise, you boost muscle mass—unless you’re on a keto diet, in which case there was no significant change in muscle mass after all that effort. Those randomized to the non-ketogenic diet added about three pounds of muscle, whereas the same amount of weightlifting on the keto diet tended to subtract muscle—an average loss of about 3.5 ounces of muscle. How else could you do eight weeks of weights and not gain a single ounce of muscle, but on a ketogenic diet? Even keto diet advocates call bodybuilding on a ketogenic diet an “oxymoron.”

What about bone loss? Sadly, bone fractures are one of the side effects that disproportionately plagues children placed on ketogenic diets, along with growth stunting and kidney stones. Ketogenic diets may cause a steady rate of bone loss, as measured in the spine, presumed to be because ketones are acidic; and so, keto diets can put people in what’s called a “chronic acidotic state.”

Some of the case reports of children on keto diets are truly heart-wrenching. One nine-year-old girl seemed to get it all—osteoporosis, bone fractures, kidney stones—and then she got pancreatitis and died. Pancreatitis can be triggered by having too much fat in your blood. A single high-fat meal can cause a quintupling of the spike in triglycerides in your bloodstream within hours of consumption, which can put you at risk for inflammation of the pancreas. She had a rare genetic disorder called “glucose transporter deficiency syndrome,” where you’re born with a defect in ferrying blood sugar into your brain. This can result in daily seizures starting in infancy, but a ketogenic diet can be used as a way to sneak fuel into their brains. So, a ketogenic diet can be a godsend for the one in 90,000 families stricken with this disorder.

As with anything in medicine, it’s all about risks versus benefits. As many as 30 percent of patients with epilepsy don’t respond to anti-seizure drugs, and the alternatives aren’t pretty, including things like brain surgery. This can mean implanting deep electrodes through the skull, or even removing a lobe of your brain. This can obviously lead to serious side effects. But, so can having seizures every day. So, if a ketogenic diet helps with seizures, the pros can far outweigh the cons.

For those just choosing a diet to lose weight, though, the cost/benefit analysis would really seem to go the other way. Thankfully, you don’t need to mortgage your long-term health for short-term weight loss. We can get the best of both worlds by choosing a healthy diet.

Remember that study that showed that the weight loss after being told to eat the low-carb Atkins diet for a year was almost identical to those told to eat the low-fat Ornish diet? The authors concluded: “This supports the practice of recommending any diet that a patient will adhere to in order to lose weight.” That seems like terrible advice. There are regimens out there, like “The Last Chance Diet which [evidently] consisted of a liquid formula made from leftover byproducts from a slaughterhouse [that] was linked to approximately 60 deaths.” Well, it did promise to change people’s lives. An ensuing failed lawsuit from one widower laid the precedent for the First Amendment protection for deadly diet books.

It’s possible to construct a healthy low-carb diet—or an unhealthy low-fat diet (a diet of cotton candy would be zero fat), but the health effects of a typical low-carb ketogenic diet, like Atkins, are vastly different from a low-fat plant-based diet, like Ornish’s. Not only would they have diametrically opposed effects on cardiovascular risk factors in theory, based on the fiber, saturated fat, and cholesterol contents of their representative meal plans, when actually put to the test, low-carb diets were found to impair artery function. Over time, blood flow to the heart muscle itself is improved on an Ornish-style diet, and diminished on a low-carb diet. Heart disease tends to progress on typical weight-loss diets, actively worsen on low-carb diets, but may be reversed by an Ornish-style diet.

Given that heart disease is the #1 killer of men and women, “recommending any diet that a patient will adhere to in order to lose weight” seems irresponsible. Why not tell people to smoke? Cigarettes can cause weight loss too, as can tuberculosis and a good meth habit, but the goal of weight loss is not to lighten the load for your pallbearers.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Dmitry Lobanov via adobe stock photos. Image has been modified.

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

111 responses to “Keto Diets: Muscle Growth & Bone Density

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  1. You forgot to mention cocaine is great for weight loss too! ;-) Seriously though, the last line sums up dieting in a nutshell: How to lose weight (preferably fat tissue) without causing or setting yourself up for harm both short and long term. Whole Food Plant Based Eating would seem to take the gold medal!

  2. Diet fads come and go for a reason. Most turn out to not be the fairy-tales that they first claimed to be is the reason. Some people are much slower than others catching up to reality, more often than not by their own choice.

    1. Yeah, there are still people doing the Atkins thing and their whole line is still in business. The biggest diet fad and longest lasting is the westernized diet or SAD, people are hooked on that one.

    1. Konrad Kolodziejczyk,

      Your linked video (around 4:30 – 4:46) misrepresents what the Nutrition Facts video said: the NF video did say that there is a great loss of FAT on the low fat diet, but that the initial OVERALL WEIGHT LOSS is greater on the low carb diet — 4 lbs compared to 3 lbs at the end of the relatively short study period — which is attributed to water loss and perhaps muscle loss. But your linked video claims that the NF video implies that initial WEIGHT LOSS is greater on the low carb diet.

      And somehow, I am not at all persuaded by “keto influencers” on the internet.

      Finally, the linked video narrator is looking for “unbiased” research papers that demonstrate the presumably superior health benefits of a meat based diet, and has asked his listeners to provide home with some references. ANY study can be done to support a particular point of view. And researchers can become very attached to their particular point of view. I know several examples.

      Though the video narrator also claims to appreciate the “debate.”

      1. But Konrad, it doesn’t matter to me. I’m not going to eat meat; I can’t justify killing animals for that purpose. Nor will I eat other animal products; I can’t justify the way that they are raised. Nor can I justify or wish to contribute to the lack of sustainability and environmental degradation caused by the animal industry.

        And I’ve had such excellent health results by switching to plant based whole food, why would I want to eat any other way? Weight loss to HS weight and huge decrease in heartburn are just two of several benefits.

      2. I think the narrator is suggesting that there isn’t any evidence to suggest that a meat diet is healthier … and he is challenging viewers to provide some.

        That said, he ought also have pointed out that Hall is a keto diet advocate and his criticisms of Greger are the result of that bias. And the fact that some keto advocate has attacked a NF video is not the same thing as ‘debunked’. Admittedly the loons of the Arkins/low carb/keto camp are always claiming that they have debunked this and that when all they have done is cobblew together some preposterous criticism or other.

        In any case, there is no ‘debate’ – this implies it’s merely a difference of opinion. It isn’t. It’s a matter of what the science shows . And the context.

    2. Dr. J said everything so brilliantly and spot on. I was simply going to call it desperation which is essentially all it is as well as predictable. The way they do these things is so hilariously obvious yet disturbing that people haven’t quite caught on. Take the “debate” reference… the guy who made the video knows it isn’t a debate, he knows that it’s the scientific data, but he’s trying to sweep it under the rug to the public by purposefully and oh so discretely lying to the public by calling it a debate which he knows will easily trick and/or confuse a large portion of the audience. It’s all so comically usual.

        1. S

          That is the truth to it. They are trying to confuse people and they are succeeding. People are confused and then they shut down and stop listening.

          When I was watching the Game Changers documentary last night, the Press acting like all of it is just so confusing, but they were glad eggs and butter turned out to not be so bad after all – made me sick to my stomach. The Press and Hollywood and the advertising industry are complicit in it. They are the ones who do the brain-washing and they are so good at it.

    1. Barbie,

      Thanks for mentioning it.

      I have been waiting for it to come out, but it only shows one night only.

      It is almost an hour drive away, but it starts long enough after rush hour that I could make it there.

      I just have to remember to buy the ticket before I go.

      Last time, I went to the theater thinking I could buy it there, and I tried to buy it on my cell phone, but it didn’t work, and they ended up letting me in for free, which is fine, too, but I would rather not have the 20 minutes standing there trying to get tickets via my cell phone.

      1. Okay, I bought my ticket and chose my seat already.

        I feel like the message getting into competitive sports will genuinely be a game-changer.

        What I know about young people – if they are trying to compete, they will do what they have to.

        Same with groups like the military.

        The sentences about being a moron trying to gain muscle on a keto diet (Yes, I might have forgotten a few letters and just mentally went straight to “moron”, but I genuinely believe that coaches and drill sergeants will be calling their players morons if they don’t go WFPB.)

      1. Christine, Maybe you could answer a question. In this video, there is mention of bone loss due to keto being acidic diet. In the past, I heard some WFPB docs explain that calcium is being leached from the bones to buffer the acidic animal-based diet and that is where the bone loss comes from. But recently in a Q & A with Dr. Greger, he indicated that theory of calcium being leached from the bones is now seen as inaccurate. So I am now trying to understand, what is the mechanism for bone loss if it is not because the calcium is being removed to buffer the acidity. We know that countries eating the most dairy have the most osteoporosis/fracture rates. What is the mechanism causing this loss then? Could you help explain? I would love to understand the new perspective…

        1. Thanks for asking Denise, I have been wondering the exact same thing for the same reasons. I thought after NF came out with that statement saying that calciium was NOT being leached out of the bones the experts would stop saying that. But they haven’t. I still hear it. What’s going on?

          1. Is there any possibility you might ask Dr. Greger to explain this further, if calcium being leached out of the bones is not the culprit for more fractures, what is?

            You know on a similar theme to your point that other docs still talk about this: It appears to me that most of the other WFPB docs and recipe developers are ignoring the arsenic in rice issue. I almost never hear the others speak about being worried about arsenic in rice. Greger’s videos made me really use rice much more infrequently despite the cooking methods and getting California rice. When Greger states he doesn’t eat rice anymore (at least at home I’m presuming), it had a big influence on me. But I feel I’m one of the only ones paying attention to that warning. -Denise

            Sent from Mail for Windows 10

        2. Hi, Denise Rose! Bone loss due to dietary acid load is controversial, with some studies seeming to support the hypothesis, and others not so much. In the video, Dr. Greger says bone loss with ketogenic diets “is presumed to be” due to dietary acid load, but we don’t really know for sure if this is the case. Many factors can affect bone remodeling. I hope that helps!

  3. Defense Department: Mandatory keto diet may enhance military performance –

    https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2019/07/01/defense-department-to-ban-beer-and-pizza-mandatory-keto-diet-may-enhance-military-performance/

    LCHF Aussie Cricketers on Top of the World –
    https://primedforyourlife.com/2015/04/17/primed-lchf-aussie-cricketers-on-top-of-the-world/

    Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis. – PubMed –

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17609259/

  4. Brilliant video, mind-blowing information, it’s truly insane anyone would advocate this nightmare, I hope their profits are worth it. I just hope the actual science overwhelms the gross misinformation (the best form advertisement) on the internet and elsewhere as it typically does not thanks in part to such an uninterested public.

    And that photo! The guy has raw flesh juices absorbing into the wood cutting board, and is he planning on eating those e-coli covered tomatoes?

    1. [Brilliant video, mind-blowing information]

      Yes, I agree. Like so many other NF.org video series, this one has provided us with information we probably would never hear elsewhere.

      This is an extraordinarily valuable web site.

  5. Defense Department – Mandatory keto diet may enhance military performance: 2019

    The controversial ketogenic or “keto” diet may be the future of the military, some defense officials say.

    Service members, and Navy SEALS especially, may have to forgo beer and burritos for skinny cocktails and avocado salad (forget the tortilla chips) if a proposal from Special Operations Command gains momentum.

    While a nutritionally enhanced future could eventually be put into effect for all branches, the SEALS and other underwater dive-mission specialists might be the first groups targeted for the change in nutritional guidelines.

    Lisa Sanders, the director of science and technology at U.S. Special Operations Command, presented an Ohio State University study that recommends the nutritional change based on the keto diet, which is high in fat and low in carbohydrates. The diet works to deprive the body of glucose needed for energy and forces it to burn stored fats instead. The study was conducted on the university’s Army ROTC cadet population.

    “One of the effects of truly being in ketosis is that it changes the way your body handles oxygen deprivation, so you can actually stay underwater at depths for longer periods of time and not go into oxygen seizures,” Sanders said at the Special Operations Forces Industry Conference in May.

    *LCHF Aussie Cricketers on Top of the World –
    https://primedforyourlife.com/2015/04/17/primed-lchf-aussie-cricketers-on-top-of-the-world/

  6. The issue is twofold. If someone has an agenda of their own so strongly encased within their own dogma they will contrive ever type of argument to support their view by trashing all other methods. Food fascists (including vegans) are equal to any other type of political philosophy that builds their own system up by tearing others down. I have witnessed keto adding to muscle, lowering of bodyfat and improving memory to a point that is irrefutable and I have seen Keto cause massive increase in cholesterol, cause keto flu, create emotional issues requiring hospitalization and a dozen other side effects. The word Keto is subject to 50 variations so there is simply no way to slam the door shut on this conversation by “looking at the studies”.
    Living the life personally and having an open mind when assisting clients who give positive and negative feedback is the gold standard.
    I fly airplanes and if someone gives me advice about flying I love it but if someone who has only read all the books on flying but has actually never landed a plane tells me information, i ignore them! Tell me how long you were on Keto, what type of Keto plan, the before and after pics of your physique, your before and after blood work and your numbers in the gym on the standard exercises of squats, bench press, curls and dead lift and I will be impressed. The worship of academia is allowing a breaking away from wisdom and common sense in so many areas of health but wrapping it in the xmas paper to make it appear valuable and truthful.
    Just my two cents at 62 years…
    I value much of your information but these types of conclusions you simply have no solid ground to stand on because it is obvious you are trying to convert people rather than be an open listener.

  7. I wish your videos would conclude with bullet points that summarize the video. Usually, your style of trying to be cute or to use interesting voice inflections and the speed of the information is making me stop it and replay it. I’m not uneducated or slow. I have a Phd. I just wish that after the video, you would give the main points in a summary fashion.

    Also, at least one of your studies you were touting said that they had a small sample size and a short time study. How is that a good source?

    Thanks for what you do!

    Joe Augello

  8. How sad about that 9 year old girl who tried KETO to treat her GTDS and ended up dying from the diet instead.

    What terrible choices we have to make sometimes.

    1. Dr. Cobalt,

      I agree. That poor family.

      Breaks my heart.

      One year in my State, there was a shortage of flu shots and what I remember was that one of the elderly people somehow died somehow in the process of trying to get the shot. I can’t remember what caused them to die. I don’t think they were trampled. I believe it was the long line somehow.

      I just remember that I heard it and didn’t take my grandmother to get her flu shot that year. She was a nurse and was a hand-washer so she didn’t get sick very often and I disinfected every handle in the house every single day and we both mostly just stayed away from everybody. particularly children.

  9. My cousin’s boyfriend got pancreatitis on the keto diet as well. He was in the hospital for a long time, he’s alive but has to now walk around with a catheter to go to the bathroom. They blamed it on a combination of being on the keto diet and drinking while on the diet.

    1. S

      That is so demoralizing and devastating and expensive.

      My friends who have tried keto have ended up in and out of the hospital and with modern high deductibles, people end up having to pay over $10,000 each year out of their own pockets.

      My friend lost her job and her husband had 2 surgeries and a long hospital stay without insurance. (Her unemployment was something like $100 over where they could have put him on Medicaid and it didn’t matter that she only had a few weeks more of unemployment.) I don’t know what they will do. The thing is, you can go bankrupt once, but if you are going in and out of the hospital and having surgeries, it is challenging to know when to do that. Both husband and wife are on multiple diabetes meds and their meds alone cost them the equivalent of my whole paycheck.

      I don’t even understand my friends or family not just jumping straight to WFPB. I heard the logic of WFPB and people getting off meds and avoiding surgeries and transplants and I didn’t need anything else.

      1. That is so sad, Deb…

        It’s so interests (for lack of better word) to me how much things align… You take a moral path which is to not harm those you do not need to harm and you get better health, a healthier planet, and economically the most sustainable in the short and long term… BUT it goes against addiction, the most convenient convenience, and the guys at the top lose out big. On the other hand, you screw over the innocent and you get a devastated planet, a devastated body, and a devastated bank account, BUT it’s super convenient in the short term, satiates pre-existing addiction (for the short term… that’s why it’s an addiction), and the guys are the top stay there nice and snug.

  10. A bit tangential here, but unbelievably distressing:

    “When the Indian government bowed to powerful food companies last year and postponed its decision to put red warning labels on unhealthy packaged food, officials also sought to placate critics of the delay by creating an expert panel to review the proposed labeling system, which would have gone far beyond what other countries have done in the battle to combat soaring obesity rates.

    But the man chosen to head the three-person committee, Dr. Boindala Sesikeran, a veteran nutritionist and former adviser to Nestle, only further enraged health advocates.

    That’s because Dr. Sesikeran is a trustee of the International Life Sciences Institute, an American nonprofit with an innocuous sounding name that has been quietly infiltrating government health and nutrition bodies around the world.

    Created four decades ago by a top Coca-Cola executive, the institute now has branches in 17 countries. It is almost entirely funded by Goliaths of the agribusiness, food and pharmaceutical industries.” (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/16/health/ilsi-food-policy-india-brazil-china.html)

    1. How does one fight these sorts of shenanigans?

      “The organization [International Life Sciences], which championed tobacco interests during the 1980s and 1990s in Europe and the United States, has more recently expanded its activities in Asia and Latin America, regions that provide a growing share of food company profits. It has been especially active in China, India and Brazil, the world’s first, second and sixth most populous nations…

      After decades largely operating under the radar, ILSI is coming under increasing scrutiny by health advocates in the United States and abroad who say it is little more than a front group advancing the interests of the 400 corporate members that provide its $17 million budget, among them Coca-Cola, DuPont, PepsiCo, General Mills and Danone.”

      Oh, they provide free lunches and five star hotel accommodations for “scientists and officials who might normally avoid an event directly sponsored by McDonald’s or Kellogg’s…

      the organization has a long history of championing corporate interests.” (ditto)

      This is mind-blowing. And remember: Food company executives don’t feed their families the products their companies produce — because they know better.

      1. Seems people gravitate to extremes for some reason. Keto and the carnivore diet are the worst.
        But in the US the food supply is just awful. My peach tree produced a lot this year, and they are so good. I usually don’t eat cold cereal, but love peaches and berries with same. Spent quite a while in the market looking for a cereal made without added sugar. I found exactly 1! Food for Life brand 4:9 with almonds.
        There were at least 100 choices in cold cereal, and only one w/o added sugar. Even all the so-called healthy organic ones had added sugar. That is sad.
        Perhaps this keto stuff is people overreacting to sugary junk food? They seem not to know, or maybe don’t want to know, that the answer is WFPB.

        1. Oh it is sad about the cereal… I would love a healthy intact grain cold cereal! Engine 12 I don’t believe adds sugar and I’m not sure if Ezekiel does. Another big problem with cereals is the ridiculous addition of added OIL! And salt. Even Engine 12 by an Esselstyn has some salt, but it’s very minimal.

          1. S, the Ezekiel 4:9 I got has only sprouted grains, soybeans and lentils. No added sugar, oil, or ‘natural flavors’. The fat comes from the almonds, but they have some w/ o nuts. Has some added salt, but less than the potassium in the rest of the ingredients. Would prefer none, but in my climate some salt is necessary.
            I don’t do any sugar or chemicals, so this one is good. I also like their sprouted corn tortillas.
            Some companies are paying attention, and choices are getting better. I have a Natural Grocers store near me that has most of what I’m looking for. Their produce prices are usually no more than in the local markets.

            1. That’s great to know, Marilyn! Thanks for the info. Unfortunately when I was little, I had a legit wheat allergy, but I stopped getting noticeable symptoms when I got older except when eating highly refined white bread in any high amount. So I’m hoping I grew out of the allergy because I would love to be able to start using ezekiel intact whole grain products.

        2. Who in the real world has even heard of WFPB? They might have heard of ‘vegetarian’ and ‘vegan’ I suppose but you can do those diets eating white bread and jam/jelly and drinking Coke.

          But who hasn’t heard of the magical claims for keto diets (which are really just rebranded old-fashioned low carb and Atkins diets)? Everybody loves the idea of a simple magical bullet that will cure all that ails us and still allows us to eat beef, butter cheese and bacon. That’s what people first turn to I suspect when they want an alternative to conventional medicine. Especially when you get hordes of health and fitness professionals out there like Randy Ice singing this same siren song.

          1. Mr. Fumblefingers,

            Well, to answer your question, because government is infiltrated with big ag interests, no one would have heard of WFPB.
            Why would anyone tell us about WFPB?
            I wouldn’t know about it if I hadn’t read “The China Study” and been alerted thereby to Campbell’s message–and I read that book ACCIDENTALLY because my daughter and her friend just happened to leave a copy on our coffee table and I just happened to pick it up….

            How irritating it is that KNOWLEDGE is not taught in schools.

            1. Liisa,

              You stumbled upon it accidentally.

              I was Googling for over a year before I stumbled over it and it was probably because they put Dr. Greger’s shocking vegan study up to point people away from vegan.

              People don’t tend to follow things the first time they “hear about” it. They have to follow a book or a video or watch enough of a PBS series or have someone around them lose a lot of weight on it or reverse a disease on it.

              Seeing the shocking vegan study interested me, because he was honest about the information and that was so unusual that it made an impression, even if I moved on and didn’t even know how to find him again.

              Not one member of my family, nor my friends, nor my coworkers, nor my church family, had ever heard of it. Not one sentence. My talking about it is enough that if they see something, now their brains will recognize it as familiar.

              In studies, people are drawn to things, which are familiar and they move away from things which are unfamiliar.

              My brother didn’t choose vegan after I fed him lunch for a few months in the Spring, but, now that he has had that experience, if something like Game Changers came on, he already internally has said to himself, “It isn’t that bad going vegan. The food wasn’t bad.”

              The athlete from the movie could only think of one food item he could eat. Bean burritos and THAT is what is being solved. It is easy to find recipes nowadays.

              When I first became allergic to meat, there wasn’t anything out there. Boxed TVP, ordered mail-order is what I could find back then, but it wasn’t convenient and I didn’t know how to spice it properly, so it was just blah.

              Watching Game Changers, the food they were eating looked EXACTLY like the SAD. It looked so much like the SAD that it was hard to mentally process for me, even now.

            2. WFPBLiisa, do elementary and high schools in your area not have health education, home economics, foods classes and the like? I am kind of surprised to hear that so many people find eating wfpb a novel idea… though the idea of having a portion of meat on the plate often was a part of the picture.

                1. Liisa, that is so great about your kids! Even if they didn’t choose to be vegan at the outset, it’s terrific that you discussed healthy food at home. My parents insisted on healthy meals, and talked about ‘why’ often during shopping or meal prep times. I never went to a fast food restaurant with them, ever. (as a teenager I went myself though!)
                  We did get nutrition classes in all grades, food prep and safety in high school. It’s survival essentials!

                  S, I agree that NutritionFacts brought the topic of diets to a whole new level. In the 80’s we were into ‘food as grown’ concepts (pretty much how we ate anyway), but I didn’t realise how powerful a great diet could be in preventing or relieving disease processes. I didn’t realise how powerful a “bad diet” could be either ! NF has really been an awakening for me in this regard and I feel so very fortunate to have stumbled upon it.

                  1. Barb, my kids became vegans before I did. My son was horrified by the killing of a chicken for the family dinner at the farm of a friend of his; that did it for him at around age 12. Those friends said he’d come around to eating animal products again, but it was his *friends *who later became vegans. My daughter told me not to drink milk when she was in her teens–that a Harvard study said it was unhealthy. She is on the fringes of eating right. She still argues about “grass fed” beef, but I argue back–no worries!! However, after I read “The China Study,” I became a maniac about all this–reading everything I could.

                    Virus-free.
                    http://www.avast.com

                    Virus-free.
                    http://www.avast.com

                    1. What a great story Liisa! I remember doing the same as a teenager.. getting into macrobiotics and away from the meat laden family table. We were ranchers Liisa, and I can tell you grass fed beef is no protection against heart disease, stroke, dementia. Same with home-churned butter and home raised chickens and eggs. The veggie garden was gorgeous though! Anyway, all the best to you and yours!

            3. I learned about it through animal rights, actually. In the vegan community, the book “How Not To Die” was mentioned quite a few times and I finally got it and finally learned the right way to eat. I was doing pretty good before it, but still didn’t understand an optimal diet. The information really just teaches not only that a WFPB diet is optimal but also why it’s optimal. There’s so much misinformation out there that a couple people I knew had me convinced (before I learned better) that beans were unhealthy… it’s a crazy, confusing, ridiculous world out there.

        3. Marilyn Kaye,

          Lucky you: A peach tree!! They sound wonderful!

          I’ve discovered that those deep pockets of Belgian waffles are perfect for holding a piece of diced fresh peach — which taste delicious with sourdough whole grain einkorn waffles. I buy my peaches at our little local farmers’ market, and they’re lovely. But picking them from my own tree would be amazing.

        4. Marilyn,

          There were at least 100 choices and only one w/o added sugar.

          I think you are right that keto is, in part, that people are overreacting to sugary junk food.

          I did do Atkins and ended up carnivore as a young person. I wasn’t trying to do carnivore. I was trying to lose weight and felt like the weight came from my sweet tooth. The carnivore end came because I wasn’t into fruits and vegetables. I particularly didn’t like cruciferous and berries and those were the ones which were allowed. When I had dieted without keto, I was hungry all the time and failed. Carnivore was filling and fairly easy.

          Within a few years, I had a serious meat allergy, but while I was focused on the futility of dieting and was trying to find a way of “not being hungry” while losing weight, that was the only thing, which drew me to carnivore and, no, I didn’t identify as a “carnivore” I was doing Atkins and was succeeding at losing weight easier than I ever had.

          Still, I must have gotten tired of only eating meat because by the end of a year, I was back to SAD. Maybe the holidays revived my sweet tooth.

          Either way, I started getting sick every time I ate meat and did end up mostly eating sweets and foods with cheese as my diet for decades after that.

          At times, during those years, I would end up doing Slim Fast or Power Bars or Atkins Bars, and that was not me trying to be extreme. That was me realizing that I still wanted to lose weight and I didn’t seem to have the ability to break off sweets without going carnivore and I was never going to go carnivore again.

          Now, I have reversed many food preferences, but I was chemically sensitive and did get sick or pass out when the fruits and vegetables were not organic. That probably contributed to my not liking them. That took decades and decades to reverse. Vagal nerve stimulation and NutritionFacts.org videos do seem to have helped, but I do understand that “extreme” diets usually are because of food aversions to plant foods and I know that this video mentions how artificial sweeteners causes fruit to not taste good, so the extreme diets are ways of not wanting to be heavy and not knowing how to do it any other way.

  11. Dr. Michael Greger cited a study that showed a correlation of ketogenic diets with diminished muscle growth from exercise and with bone loss:

    The article, which is from The International Society of Sports Nutrition, included the following statement: “At week 2, blood beta-hydroxybutyrate concentrations were 3.6-fold greater for the ketogenic vs nonketogenic group (P=0.018) and correlated significantly with perceived exercise effort (r2=0.22, P=0.049). Blood beta-hydroxybutyrate was also significantly correlated to feelings of “fatigue” (r=0.458, P=0.049) and to “total mood disturbance” (r=0.551, P=0.015) while exercising.”

    Observe that the above statement refers to correlation, not causation. One would expect the beta-hydroxybutyrate concentrations to correspond to the high-fat, low-carbohyrate content of the ketogenic diet, so was it the high-fat, low-carbohydrate content of the diet that was responsible for the correlation of the beta-hydroxybutyrate with the fatigue and mood disturbances, or simply the beta-hydroxybutyrate itself that produced the fatigue and mood disturbances?

    This is important, because there are other ways to obtain beta-hydroxybutyrate than the consumption of a ketogenic diet. There are exogenous ketone supplements that produce beta-hydroxybutrate independently of a ketogenic diet and which are alleged to provide the same benefits to cognition as the diet itself. So would these exogenous ketone supplements, which also produce beta-hydroxybyrate by themselves, produce the same diminished muscle growth and bone loss independently of a ketogenic diet? Or is just the diet itself that produces them?

    1. Moreover, if it’s just the beta-hydroxybutyrate that causes diminished muscle growth and bone loss, then anything that produces it (like fasting every other day, which has been shown to be a remedy for neurodegenerative disease) would have the same negative effects on muscle growth and bone loss. Does it?

      1. William,

        Intermittent fasting also causes diminished muscle growth even in people who exercise.

        It can cause bone loss if there is calorie restriction, but exercise can help with that.

        Which neurodegenerative diseases are you trying to reverse?

        If you look at the Sherzai’s work on Alzheimer’s, just eating Whole Food Plant-Based vegan or near-vegan was enough to have the Adventist’s have less than a 5% risk of Alzheimer’s.

        Dr. Ornish’s study is coming soon and when that comes out, we will see what type of reversal happens with a WFPB diet alone.

        I have been reversing brain problems and, for me, it has been lowering Homocysteine by supplementing B12, Omega 3, Vitamin D and eating plant foods for Folate, reversing diabetes symptoms by lowering saturated fats, refined carbs and sugar, lowering cholesterol, trying to get enough exercise and sleep, getting the aluminum out of my brain through 1 liter of silica water per day for 12 weeks, getting rid of supplements with copper, etc.

        Without ever having heard of beta-hydroxybutyrate, I got rid of hallucinations and night terrors and psychoses and cognitive processing problems, chronic social anxiety, and improved executive function and spacial issues. I can now tell which side of the road I am on while I am driving and my field of vision doesn’t seem to be disappearing. There are probably other things. I still don’t know what date or day or time or season it is and still can’t recognize faces very well, but everything is moving in a positive direction all with WFPB and B12, Omega 3, Vitamin D and a Brazil nut for selenium and I do have to deal with iodine now and then. (Trying watercress for that nowadays and I think it may be working, but I never know until symptoms of deficiency come.)

  12. Game Changers was awesome!

    Fabulous!

    The athletes were compelling.

    Dr Ornish looked so natural.

    It was fabulous seeing the Esselstyn’s and the results of the 7 day challenge and to see WFPB vegan rippling out to sports and military and firefighters, etc.

    To see the improvements of the strength and endurance and erections all were so compelling.

    Laughing that it will probably be the almost 500% more erections at night and however many percent firmer erections will be what the men rewind to listen again when it gets released.

    The recipes look amazing and kudos to whoever decided to put those on-line.

    Laughing at the rope in the gym exercise where he went from not being able to do more than 8 minutes to being able to go over an hour after 6 weeks WFPB or something like that.

  13. The science consultant did an amazing job, but I would have liked to see his face in a few spots.

    The science visuals were stunning on the big screen.

    Up close and personal with the endothelials.

    1. Hey Deb, you’re back! I was just thinking about you, and wondering how you enjoyed the movie. Wonderful of you to offer your ‘ review’, and glad your evening went well.

        1. Yeah, there are some fun ones.

          It was awesome, Barb!

          I enjoyed, “Eating You Alive” but this one had so much vitality. It wasn’t people getting over diseases. It was athletes going WFPB vegan and some of them looking like they were eating the exact same food, but getting stronger and faster and better at their sports.

          Arnold Schwarzenegger talked about when the plant-based competitors started winning in the bodybuilding competitions.

          I think that so many of them were breaking records and having a vegan lift over 1000 pounds and move it 30 feet and turn over a car with his bare hands.

          It was fun to watch.

          But seeing Rip Esselstyn still working on getting firemen to not die of heart attacks on the job (67% of firemen deaths on the job have been from heart attacks) and saving lives still jazzes me up more than anything.

          I was praying about it after I left the theater because I have a relative who is a high up at a police department. I have had several police officer relatives. To have them be stronger and faster and have more endurance and yet have less cortisol, I am hoping they are going to be releasing DVD’s of this so I can hand them to a few key people.

          1. I honestly think it will change everything.

            It will already change the way athletes and military and firefighters and police officers train.

            There is no way you want to be going into a competition or going on the battlefield or into a romantic situation after eating meat.

            1. Plus, it was exciting because the males in a few of the studies had a big difference in their sexuality and in their blood quality just by swapping ONE meat and dairy meal with a vegan meal.

              The 7-day lab results were almost as good as the 10-day lab results change in PlantPure Nation.

              It caused me to pause and think about my brother. He liked every single vegan meal I gave to him, but my sister-in-law didn’t try the meals and she was the one who put her foot down.

              The cooking really burnt me out, but he really liked all of it.

              I am not going to pressure them, but I need to bring more vegan meals to work again.

              It really, really, really, really sucks that I haven’t lost weight, but my sister-in-law is gaining weight and she is getting more open to trying something else. I feel like there might be a Take 2 in the cooking experiment and that maybe some of those recipes might be ones which are more “masculine” and I say that in a traditional family model way after seeing a movie with a lot of muscular males. (And a few amazing women)

  14. I found this interesting as I’ve been managing Ibs/sibo symptoms with low carb diet for a couple of years with good relief. However I’ve been plagued with painful muscles and stiffness which wakes me several times a night in spite of attention to electrolytes, magnesium etc. I’m not in ketosis but every time I increase carbs my gut symptoms get worse and muscles improve! I’m vegetarian.

    1. You’re vegetarian you say, I wonder if your Ibs symptoms would lesson or go away if you tried cutting out all dairy products. Before I went vegan, I was a vegetarian and dairy was mostly my only source of animal products. As soon as I cut it out, I started noticing an incredible difference in my digestion and my bloating went away within the first week. This was when I was still eating refined foods, but they were all vegan. After going vegan, I learned that prior to it, my digestive tract was simply not working, not properly at all. Obviously the more WFPB I got, the better I felt in literally every regard.

    2. Hello Heath,
      I am a family doctor with a private practice in lifestyle medicine, and also a volunteer for Dr. Greger on this website. If you do consume dairy products, then cutting those out might help, as suggested by “S”, below.

      However, you might want to check out a book titled “Low-FODMAP and Vegan: What to eat when you can’t eat anything,” by Jo Stepaniak, MSEd, published in 2016 by Book Publishing Company. “FODMAP”s are various sugars which are not well-absorbed in small intestine, and often cause colonic distension. Many people with IBS do better on a low-FODMAP diet, but the problem is that many of the high-fiber foods in a WFPB diet contain FODMAPs. So what do you do?

      I have summarized Stepaniak’s book in the following short blurb, which I have called “Low FODMAP vegan diet for IBS”.

      I hope this helps you. It starts out with the criteria for diagnosing IBS, and also some non-dietary interventions that might help.

      Dr. Jon
      PhysicianAssistedWellness.com
      Health Support Volunteer for NutritionFacts.org.

      Diagnostic criteria for IBS (Rome IV): recurrent abdominal pain and a marked change in bowel habits for at least six months, with recurrent abdominal pain at least 3 days/mo during the last 3 months associated w/two or more of:
      – Pain is relieved by BM
      – Onset associated w/change in stool frequency
      – Onset assoc. w/change in form (appearance) of stool

      Lifestyle treatment of IBS:
      Exercise: at least 30 min per day
      Manage stress: meditation, yoga, etc.
      Adequate sleep: stick to regular routine
      Keep food and symptom diary
      Diet: regular meals, don’t skip meals, smaller meals, prepare bag lunches and snacks, hydrate (8c/d)
      Fiber: soluble fiber can make diarrhea-predominant IBS (IBS-D) worse; if so, try adding nonfermentable fiber supplements – e.g. psyllium husks
      Gluten: no evidence that gluten-free helps IBS; if gluten-free helps, it’s likely due to elimination of fructans.
      Common food-related triggers: alcohol, artificial sweeteners (made with sugar alcohols), caffeine, carbonated beverages, chewing gum (due to swallowed air), fatty foods (harder to digest), hot chiles, inulin (chicory root), “resistant starch”, excessive sugar (speeds gut motility).

      “FODMAP” definition: fermentable oligosaccharides (fructans and galacto-oligosaccharides), disaccharides (lactose), monosaccharides (fructose), and polyols (polydextrose, iso-malt, maltitol, mannitol, sorbitol, and xylitol).

      Mechanism by which FODMAPs cause problems: they are not well-absorbed in small intestine, and in the colon they are rapidly broken down by bacteria, and cause bowel distention – from gas production and from drawing in more liquid.

      75% of IBS sufferers are helped by a low-FODMAP diet.

      Best foods during an IBS flare (bland, soft, well-cooked, low-fiber, low-fat, low-FODMAP):
      – Almond milk yoghurt
      – Banana, very ripe
      – Bread/toast, if gluten-free
      – Peanut butter, peanuts
      – Potatoes: baked – without skin, or mashed
      – Polenta (corn), plain
      – Rice (only white rice), e.g. Basmati; rice cakes or crackers, rice noodles, rice pudding
      – Tapioca pudding
      – Tea: peppermint, or ginger
      – Vegetable broth
      – Water, with squeeze of lemon
      Foods to avoid:
      – Agave nectar
      – Apples, apricots, blackberries, cherries, figs, grapefruit, mango, nectarine, peach, pear, watermelon*
      – Artichokes**
      – Avocados
      – Beans (black, garbanzos (unless canned & rinsed well & < ¼ cup, cooked), kidney, pinto, broad, soybeans (except for firm tofu, miso, or tempeh))
      o Alternatives: lentils (canned or well-cooked and rinsed, <1/2 cup), boiled lima beans (1/4 c), boiled mung beans (1/4 c, cooked)
      – Cashews
      – Cauliflower**
      – Dates
      – Garlic**
      – Mushrooms**
      – Onions**
      – Peas**
      – Pistachios
      – Grains: Wheat, rye, amaranth, barley, wheat bran, bulgur, cous-cous, kamut, Muesli
      o Alternative grains: bread made with sourdough (no yeast, and long slow rising time), buckwheat, corn (chips, flour), millet, oats (quick, or oat bran), quinoa, rice flour, sorghum flour, spelt flour, seitan (even though this is wheat gluten, most IBS sufferers can tolerate due to no carbohydrates – is pure protein).
      *Fruits that are OK: Banana, blueberries, cantaloupe, cranberries/juice, grapes, honeydew, kiwi, lemon or lime juice, orange, papaya, passion fruit, pineapple, plantain, raspberries, rhubarb, strawberries.
      **Note: most veggies are OK, including alfalfa sprouts, arugula, bean sprouts, cabbage, carrots, chard, chives (small amount), collard greens, cucumber, eggplant, fennel, ginger, green beans, kale, lettuce (all), okra, potatoes, radishes, rutabaga, scallion greens, spinach, squash, tomatoes, yams, zucchini.
      Nuts/seeds that are OK: Brazil, chestnuts, chia seeds, macadamia, peanuts, pecans, pine nuts, poppy seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, walnuts; flaxseed if <1 Tbsp, almonds if <10.

    1. What do you mean by ‘keto’ (percentage fat)? What kind of training? I don’t think anyone said is was impossible to gain muscle on keto. In any event, you might have even better gains off keto.

    2. Well for one thing, it could be in your head–you expect to see change so you note change even if it isn’t really there, that is a true effect we humans can be prone to. Another possibility is you’re just making a claim to support the keto diet for various possible reasons–it’s the internet, anyone can say anything. That’s not an accusation though, just pointing out the reality of the internet. You also might not be doing a true keto diet, on accident, as pointed out by another. And my own brain storming, I wonder if it’s possible that you just don’t SEE your muscles better with the loss of water weight.

    3. Peter,

      People who workout and do keto had an average loss of about 3.5 ounces of muscle doing the same amount of weight lifting that the non-ketogenic diet added about three pounds of muscle. That is the average.

      Maybe you are working out a lot more? It could be something like that.

      In the Game Changers Documentary, they were talking about things like how the vegans recovered after exercise much faster and when people switched to a vegan diet from meat, they got stronger and faster and more endurance. They improved in performance.

      There was an athlete who was part of a gym, which kept track of everybody’s rope exercises on a wall and that man could only manipulate the ropes for 8 minutes as a meat-eater. When he came back after weeks of eating vegan, he could do it for over an hour and stopped because he didn’t feel like doing it anymore. His own personal performance improved so much in a few weeks that he could last over 7 times longer at that same exercise.

      Does that mean that every vegan will be stronger and have more endurance than every meat eater? Not likely.

      The males who they tested the firmness and amount of erections had such an increase even after one vegan meal and that was all of them.

      Does that mean that every vegan will best every meat-eater? Not likely.

    4. Peter,

      I looked up intermittent fasting by itself, rather than the keto diet and it had the same results.

      They concluded that it didn’t necessarily mean that it is impossible to gain muscle with intermittent fasting, but that it may not be the easiest diet for gaining muscles.

  15. Here’s a 2019 study on 48,000 post-menopausal women showing they fared better on a lower fat diet.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31175807  

    Low-Fat Dietary Pattern among Postmenopausal Women Influences Long-Term Cancer, Cardiovascular Disease, and Diabetes Outcomes

    “Over an 8.5-y (median) intervention period, intervention and comparison group differences included lower fat by 8–10%, and higher carbohydrate by 8–10%, of total energy, in conjunction with higher consumption of vegetables, fruit, and grains.

    Conclusions
    Reduction in dietary fat with corresponding increase in vegetables, fruit, and grains led to benefits related to breast cancer, CHD, and diabetes, without adverse effects, among healthy postmenopausal US women.”
    ___

    Note that not only was the amount of fat per day reduced but the make up shifted to less saturated fat, less trans fat, less monounsaturated fat and more polyunsaturated fat in the intervention group, which is perhaps relevant to the outcomes.

    1. He was a cook for a hospital and has an on-line college teaching cooking.

      The first lesson was knife skills.

      I am going to try it.

      With my brain problems, I haven’t wanted to cut things with knives and I never did it with the right knife or proper holding of the knife or proper size cuts.

      If I can get knife skills down, I can get rid of some of the gadgets.

      I feel like my brain is better enough to try things. I guess I will find out.

      1. He gave the exact temperatures for gelatinization of starches and carmelization of starches and evaporation of moisture and coagulation of proteins and said to get a thermometer and stop guessing.

        This is going to help me.

        I know that he isn’t going to be teaching WFPB, but knowing the exact temperatures and the exact knife motion and other things will help.

        I did take the Culinary gym which is WFPB and that is excellent, but this one is 5 skills from culinary school and it is free.

          1. Excellent!

            Thanks, Liisa!

            Yes, this man had 3 free classes.

            Then, you can buy lifetime access to his whole site with tons and tons of classes for 3 easy payments of $75 per month. Then, they try to add on extra things – holiday cooking, entertaining, etc.

            He does mention tofu and tempeh and falafel but he is focused on skills.

            He has a pleasant enough demeanor and I really did learn a whole lot from him with this one session.

            I learned from Culinary Gym, too, but she wasn’t doing cooking skills.

            He is teaching what you would learn in Culinary skill and is doing it with light mannerisms, rather than having the cooking police looking their noses down at Julia Childs.

            I always liked watching her videos because she never hid her mistakes. But I will say that I never actually learned anything from any cooking show at all. It was entertaining enough to watch. I liked Alton Brown’s Good Eats – with science, which I also don’t remember, but it was also fun to watch. I honestly thought I was incapable of learning by video, but here I am almost 2 years later and it turns out that I can learn.

            This man, teaching the 5 things you learn in culinary school just taught me more than any cooking show ever has. Just learning how to hold a knife and the exact motion to cut in and why not to chop like I do and though I could watch the cooking channel and notice that they bend their fingers when they chop, I never learned where my knuckle should go and just stupid little thing like the exact temperature for sauteeing.

            I can learn from videos. I don’t know if that is a brain healing or if I learned enough of the “alphabet” of cooking to be able to follow things well enough to grasp more or if he just is teaching the part they skip over. Plus, he had a printable worksheet.

              1. Liisa,

                Thank you so much!

                I appreciate you!

                I had forgotten about Forks Over Knives cooking classes.

                I did do Forks Over Knives free trial of recipes back near the beginning, but it was before I had adapted my taste buds and the ones they were suggesting weren’t within my comfort zone.

                I just watched a few of the rouxbe.com preview videos.

                They are covering similar materials as the man I watched earlier tonight. The non-plant-based man is funnier and more interesting to listen to. I think he teaches more of the science of cooking, but I was only watching previews for the rouxbe site so I could be wrong about that. They have very clear instructions and better camera angles, which make it easier to see what they are doing.

                Did you take the Forks Over Knives course? Or a different one?

                1. The non-plant-based guy gives analogies, which I immediately learn from.

                  For instance, he was explaining heat transfer and he explained conductive versus convective heat and used the example that you could stick your hand in an oven to get food out and not get burned, but if you touch a hot burner on a stove, you immediately get burned.

                  It is the geeky science stuff which people who just want to get to the recipes probably won’t even want to hear about, but I am trying to get the neuronal pathways in my brain to understand cooking and him sticking his head in the oven will be something I may remember. Even if I don’t remember that, I will remember that I had to mentally process whether my hand would get burned sticking it in the oven and I mentally reached the fact that I don’t get burned taking the food out unless I touch the rack, which now has silicone protecting me in case I get lazy and stick tongs in the oven to flip something without having a pot holder on. No, it hasn’t happened, but what I remember is that in the year or two before she died, my mother had started doing things like that and she got burned 3 or 4 times and she was an exceptional woman who tended to be excellent at everything. I would say the same thing happened with my grandmother, but she also lost some of her organizational skills, etc. I just figured that silicone protectors on the racks is a second level of protection.

                  But learning these things in a way, which stimulates as many neurons as possible is another protection.

                  What I really liked about the rouxbe knife skills video preview was that they spoke about a way to practice the handwork without using a knife until you are ready.

                  I am excited about learning this. I probably will do both by the end.

    2. Deb,

      Have you ever checked out the cooking videos on YouTube for the Happy Vegan Couple (my hubbie and I). We show step-by-step cooking instructions for WFPB recipes we eat in our home. All free.

      1. Thank you Denise, and also to your husband for producing your delightful videos! I have enjoyed watching them for some time now, and recently marked rhe cabbage and potato soup recipe to make soon. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DB4kJ-v0cWA Mr Fumble Fingers (from this forum) said his old neighbourhood lived on cabbage and potatoes and did great. I am looking forward to trying it.
        Thanks again!

        1. Barb, We’re so happy you enjoy our videos and actually knew about them prior to my mentioning them in to you in this thread. That potato-cabbage soup came from a local Tucson restaurant though we might have changed it a bit. If you enjoy oatmeal, try our oatmeal breakfast patties. I like eating them cold or warm. Also the seitan pepperoni is a great snack for on the go. Can eat warm, cold, or room temp. -Denise

          Sent from Mail for Windows 10

              1. Denise,

                Thanks for sharing!

                I never saw Forks Over Knives.

                I have seen several WFPB documentaries.

                Your story is similar to mine, except that I became allergic to meat and became a high-dairy, junk food vegetarian for decades plural. I have brain problems and dates and numbers from me would generally be a guess, but decades plural is accurate.

                I have been aiming WFPB vegan for 2 years January 1st.

                I started watching Dr Greger closer to Thanksgiving.

      2. Wow, Thanks, Denise!

        That is such a useful service to the community! I will definitely check it out!

        I come from as SAD as possible, as many restaurants and fast food joints and tv dinners as possible. Never met a vegan in my life until a few months ago, and that person already moved away.

        I have cooked some over the past almost 2 years, but I got so burnt out in the Spring that I ate salad every day until September.

        I am recovering from brain problems, so I can use all the help I can get!

        Thanks again!

        1. Deb,

          Glad to hear you are doing better! And even more happy to hear you have transitioned from such a toxic diet. Now you can treat your body as the precious vessel it is! In case you don’t know, we have a Happy Vegan Couple page on Facebook. There I post lots of articles and lectures by doctors and other WFPB advocates.

          We try to make our cooking videos very user friendly. For example, Georgie shows again and again how to cut veggies because we never know who is watching for the first time that doesn’t know how to cook.

          We love to hear that people are finding our videos useful. Our passion is to stop suffering! All kinds! =Denise

          Sent from Mail for Windows 10

  16. Can NF.org look into what’s implied by a study like the one below? I’d like to see this from a wfpb diet perspective.

    1. J Nutr. 1989 Jan;119(1):48-53.

    Effect of protein level and protein source on zinc absorption in humans.

    Sandström B(1), Almgren A, Kivistö B, Cederblad A.

    Author information:
    (1)Department of Clinical Nutrition, University of Gothenburg, Sweden.

    The effect of increasing levels of various protein sources on zinc absorption
    from a legume-based meal was studied in humans with the use of a radionuclide
    technique. The meals were extrinsically labelled with 65Zn and absorption was
    determined from measurements of the whole-body retention of the isotope. The mean
    fractional zinc absorption for the 13 meals was 24.7 +/- 6.9% and was only
    influenced by the protein content of the meal to a limited extent (r = 0.45).
    However, the amount of zinc absorbed from the meals was strongly correlated with
    both the protein (r = 0.85) and zinc content (r = 0.86): 5.9 +/- 1.7 mumol of
    zinc was absorbed from the basal bean meal which had the lowest protein content;
    the addition of low zinc chicken doubled the protein content and increased zinc
    absorption to 10.3 +/- 2.0 mumol; the addition of zinc-rich beef also doubled the
    protein content, however, zinc absorption was increased to 15.9 +/- 4.7 mumol. It
    is concluded that the zinc content of the main protein source of the diet
    determines the amount of zinc absorbed to a large extent. However, relatively
    small amounts of animal protein can significantly improve the value of a
    legume-based meal as a source of zinc.

    DOI: 10.1093/jn/119.1.48
    PMID: 2492337 [Indexed for MEDLINE]

        1. I re-watched Dr. Greger’s response to her iodine question and he said not to use kelp because you would have to use such small amounts.

          That sounds like it could be good for someone who doesn’t like seaweed. I started wondering how small.

          She made a comment that our entire lifetime requirement of iodine would fit within a teaspoon.

          I don’t have a sense whether I can stop eating the watercress for the Winter and if several weeks of eating it might be enough for the year.

      1. My mother has a small appetite. It might be the Cymbalta. It might be the food. She eats about 120-140 g cooked pulses and probably 300g of cooked grains and two slices of bread each day. Two fistfuls of cooked vegetable soup/stew thing, some green sides (not even a fistful) and some starchy vegetables. Two to three fruits. She’s about 150-160cm tall, 55-60kg. Chocolates, chips, donut treats every other day. That’s why I’m thinking about 100-150g of muscle meat spread over three meals might be better than what’s happening now and might bring her appetite back.

  17. The sports paper where you got this bogas info is full of crap. I was vegan 12 years and changed to Keto 6 months ago and have more muscle more energy and super healthy and doing Keto OMAD 23/1

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