One in a Thousand: Ending the Heart Disease Epidemic

One in a Thousand: Ending the Heart Disease Epidemic
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Many of our most common diseases found to be rare, or even nonexistent, among populations eating plant-based diets.


Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

This is a list of diseases commonly found here (and in populations that eat and live like the U.S.), but were rare, or even nonexistent, in populations eating diets centered around whole plant foods.

These are among our most common diseases, like obesity. Hiatal hernia, one of the most common stomach problems; hemorrhoids and varicose veins, the most common venous problems; colorectal cancer, the #2 cause of cancer death; diverticulosis, the #1 disease of the intestine; appendicitis, the #1 cause of emergency abdominal surgery; gallbladder disease, the #1 cause for nonemergency abdominal surgery; and ischemic heart disease, the commonest cause of death here, but a rarity in plant-based populations.

This landmark study, suggesting that coronary heart disease was practically nonexistent among those eating traditional plant-based diets in Africa, claimed that there was adequate autopsy evidence to confirm that fact. Let’s look at it.

“Doctors in sub-Saharan Africa during the …30s and …40s recognised that certain diseases commonly met in Western communities were rare in rural African peasants. This hearsay talk greeted any new doctor on arrival in Africa. Even the teaching manuals…stated that diabetes, coronary heart disease, appendicitis, peptic ulcer, gallstones, hemorrhoids and constipation were rare in African blacks who ‘eat foods that contain many skins and fibres, such as beans and [corn], and pass a bulky stool two or three times a day.’ Surgeons noticed that the common acute abdominal emergencies (like appendicitis) in Western communities were virtually absent in rural African peasants.”

But, do we have hard data to back that up? Yes. Major autopsy series were performed. First thousand Kenyan autopsies—”not a single case of appendicitis,” not a single heart attack, three diabetics out of a thousand, one peptic ulcer, no gallstones, and no evidence of high blood pressure—which alone affects one out of three Americans.

Maybe, the Africans were just dying early of other diseases, and so, never lived long enough to get heart disease? No; here’s age-matched heart attack rates in Uganda versus St. Louis. Out of 632 autopsies in Uganda, one myocardial infarction. Out of 632 Missourians—same age and gender distribution—136 myocardial infarctions. More than a hundred times the rate of our #1 killer. In fact, they were so blown away they did another 800 autopsies in Uganda, and still, just that one small healed infarct (meaning it wasn’t even the cause of death) out of 1,427 patients. Less than one in a thousand, whereas in the U.S., it’s an epidemic.

How do the doctors even know what to look for over there, then? Though practically unheard of among the native population, the physicians are quite familiar with heart disease, because of all the folks that immigrate to the countries in Africa.

The famous surgeon, Dr. Burkitt, insisted that modern medicine is going about it all wrong: “A highly unacceptable fact that is rarely considered yet indisputable is that with rare exceptions…, there is no evidence that the incidence of any disease was ever reduced by treatment.” Improved therapies may reduce mortality, but may not reduce the incidence of the disease. Understand what he’s saying? 

Take cancer, for example. “[T]he vast majority of effort [is] devoted to advances in treatment,…the second priority given to screening programs attempting [early] diagnosis. [But] [i]s there any evidence that the incidence of any form of cancer has ever been reduced by improved treatment, or [by] early detection? Early diagnosis may reduce mortality rates, and medical services can [certainly profoundly benefit] sick people—but have little, if any, [effect] on the number of people becoming ill [in the first place].” No matter how fancy heart disease surgery gets, it’s never going to reduce the number of people falling victim to the disease.

He compares it to an engine left out in the rain. “If an engine repeatedly stops as a consequence of being exposed to the elements, it is of limited value to rely on the aid of mechanics to detect and remedy the fault. Examination of all engines would reveal that those out in the rain were stopping, but those under cover were running well. [So,] [t]he correct approach would then be to provide protection from the offending environment. However, considering the failing engine as the ailing patient, this is seldom the priority of modern medicine.”

He sums it up with the “cliff or the ambulance:” “If people are falling over the edge of a cliff and sustaining injuries, the problem could be dealt with by stationing ambulances at the bottom or erecting a fence at the top. Unfortunately, we put [way] too much effort into the provision of ambulances and far too little into the simple approach of erecting fences. And then, of course, there are all the industries enticing people to the edge, and profiting from pushing people off.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Images thanks to chickadee23 via flickr

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

This is a list of diseases commonly found here (and in populations that eat and live like the U.S.), but were rare, or even nonexistent, in populations eating diets centered around whole plant foods.

These are among our most common diseases, like obesity. Hiatal hernia, one of the most common stomach problems; hemorrhoids and varicose veins, the most common venous problems; colorectal cancer, the #2 cause of cancer death; diverticulosis, the #1 disease of the intestine; appendicitis, the #1 cause of emergency abdominal surgery; gallbladder disease, the #1 cause for nonemergency abdominal surgery; and ischemic heart disease, the commonest cause of death here, but a rarity in plant-based populations.

This landmark study, suggesting that coronary heart disease was practically nonexistent among those eating traditional plant-based diets in Africa, claimed that there was adequate autopsy evidence to confirm that fact. Let’s look at it.

“Doctors in sub-Saharan Africa during the …30s and …40s recognised that certain diseases commonly met in Western communities were rare in rural African peasants. This hearsay talk greeted any new doctor on arrival in Africa. Even the teaching manuals…stated that diabetes, coronary heart disease, appendicitis, peptic ulcer, gallstones, hemorrhoids and constipation were rare in African blacks who ‘eat foods that contain many skins and fibres, such as beans and [corn], and pass a bulky stool two or three times a day.’ Surgeons noticed that the common acute abdominal emergencies (like appendicitis) in Western communities were virtually absent in rural African peasants.”

But, do we have hard data to back that up? Yes. Major autopsy series were performed. First thousand Kenyan autopsies—”not a single case of appendicitis,” not a single heart attack, three diabetics out of a thousand, one peptic ulcer, no gallstones, and no evidence of high blood pressure—which alone affects one out of three Americans.

Maybe, the Africans were just dying early of other diseases, and so, never lived long enough to get heart disease? No; here’s age-matched heart attack rates in Uganda versus St. Louis. Out of 632 autopsies in Uganda, one myocardial infarction. Out of 632 Missourians—same age and gender distribution—136 myocardial infarctions. More than a hundred times the rate of our #1 killer. In fact, they were so blown away they did another 800 autopsies in Uganda, and still, just that one small healed infarct (meaning it wasn’t even the cause of death) out of 1,427 patients. Less than one in a thousand, whereas in the U.S., it’s an epidemic.

How do the doctors even know what to look for over there, then? Though practically unheard of among the native population, the physicians are quite familiar with heart disease, because of all the folks that immigrate to the countries in Africa.

The famous surgeon, Dr. Burkitt, insisted that modern medicine is going about it all wrong: “A highly unacceptable fact that is rarely considered yet indisputable is that with rare exceptions…, there is no evidence that the incidence of any disease was ever reduced by treatment.” Improved therapies may reduce mortality, but may not reduce the incidence of the disease. Understand what he’s saying? 

Take cancer, for example. “[T]he vast majority of effort [is] devoted to advances in treatment,…the second priority given to screening programs attempting [early] diagnosis. [But] [i]s there any evidence that the incidence of any form of cancer has ever been reduced by improved treatment, or [by] early detection? Early diagnosis may reduce mortality rates, and medical services can [certainly profoundly benefit] sick people—but have little, if any, [effect] on the number of people becoming ill [in the first place].” No matter how fancy heart disease surgery gets, it’s never going to reduce the number of people falling victim to the disease.

He compares it to an engine left out in the rain. “If an engine repeatedly stops as a consequence of being exposed to the elements, it is of limited value to rely on the aid of mechanics to detect and remedy the fault. Examination of all engines would reveal that those out in the rain were stopping, but those under cover were running well. [So,] [t]he correct approach would then be to provide protection from the offending environment. However, considering the failing engine as the ailing patient, this is seldom the priority of modern medicine.”

He sums it up with the “cliff or the ambulance:” “If people are falling over the edge of a cliff and sustaining injuries, the problem could be dealt with by stationing ambulances at the bottom or erecting a fence at the top. Unfortunately, we put [way] too much effort into the provision of ambulances and far too little into the simple approach of erecting fences. And then, of course, there are all the industries enticing people to the edge, and profiting from pushing people off.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Images thanks to chickadee23 via flickr

Doctor's Note

If all a plant-based diet could do was reverse our #1 killer (see Cavities and Coronaries: Our Choice), then shouldn’t that be the default diet, until proven otherwise? And then, the fact that it also appears to reverse other leading killers, like diabetes and hypertension, just makes the evidence overwhelming. See my last two live presentations if you haven’t yet: Uprooting the Leading Causes of Death and More than an Apple a Day.

So, why doesn’t the medical profession embrace it? See The Tomato Effect.

So, why don’t many individual doctors do it? See Lifestyle Medicine: Treating the Causes of Disease.

So, why doesn’t the federal government recommend it? See The McGovern Report.

But, you can take your destiny into your own hands (mouth?), and work with your doctor to clean up your diet, and maximize your chances of living happily ever after.

For further context, check out my associated blog post: We Can End the Heart Disease Epidemic.

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

262 responses to “One in a Thousand: Ending the Heart Disease Epidemic

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  1. Very good video. It should be learned in schools ! I wonder when it will be no longer accepted to let people falling into cliff for the sake of money.

    “The love of money is the root of all evil.” St Timothy

    “Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
    Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.” Dalaï Lama

    “This is not a conspiracy folks, it’s business as usual.” John McDougall.

    1. FYI “The love of money…” quote should be attributed to the Apostle Paul, since the passage comes from the letter written BY Paul TO Timothy, not from Timothy to Paul. (1 Tim 6:10)

    2. This is not a conspiracy folks, it’s business as usual.” John McDougall.

      Which is what I say about him when he poo poos GMO affects and gluten(starch!) during a lecture where he’s plugging the crowd for donations to HIS ideas. . . meanwhile he will not hear that some folks (like myself) do NOT do well on grains and starches AT ALL, and greens and algaes and starchless veggies work for me FINE as my CORE, as well as as much omega 3’s as I can ingest in greens and unshelled/unsprayed nuts – without eating animals or their fodder or grains. . . He’s a mirror of Adkins but less aware of himself. Adkins at least ate from a garden of greens after losing his weight, to supliment carbs and while his followers grabbed ice cream, cookies, bread and pasta and gave him a bad name. animal and starches aside, at least Adkins had the greens down, and for the tone of his mind when I heard him interviewed, seemed quite sound and sane and open minded, while McDougal seems fanatic, fat headed and self agrandizing. . . He can’t stand up straight and it looks obvious to me he’s way over starched and low on raw and fresh veggies. . . . for what my 2 cents are worth. ;)

      1. That’s only partially true, Ruby. John McDougall is aware and willing to eliminate gluten food and even potatoes in some cases of gluten intolerance or other auto-immune disease. But you have to recognised that it is not the case of the majority, and there is a huge hype against gluten food nowadays. The gluten-free but still junk food industry had 30% growth every year (at least in my country) while the gluten intolerance and gluten sensitive don’t goes up as well, in fact it stay flat. And we know that people in the ancient times get heart disease and cancer well before the invention of pesticide, GMOs and the like, in a world that everything was organic by default, because their diet was too rich in animal food. John McDougall doesn’t say GMOs are good, he just say that it is not the main cause of disease in America, and you know what ? He might be exactly right.

        If you do just fine on non starchy vegetable as your core with gluten-free starchy food, I don’t know where the problem is ?

        1. You’re missing the point, and glossing over, as he did – he is NOT correct about his dismissal of GMO foods which cause cancer. In THIS video he dismisses gluten alergies entirely, despite your contentsions that he, perhaps at some other point in time, said someything opposite (hypocrite?) about starchy foods being the core of his diet. Certainly he never siad any such thing since his contention of a starchy core is his entire core contention, period, Adrien. You are obviously trying to hold to his suinking ship for whatever reason. perhaps a startchy diet works for you. Whatevrr. The POINT is that his dismissal of this new info about both GMO’s and Gluten intolerence contest hhis contensions of what makes a person healthy – the gluten alergy specificaly pulls the rug out from under him, and he has bills to pay and donations to sequester dear, as he did all through the vid, and addressing these contensions would as he said, distract from his point he needed todrive home – donate to his ideas and forget. . . . “pay no attention to the man behind ths curtain!”, Wizard of Oz scene my dear. The fact is that his dismissal is unintelligent, and shows his real interest is in paying his bills and getting funding, and NOT refining his diet ideas to actually help people – this helping people is now (though it may not have been at his career onset) a side issue, and these contentions are distractions to those who might find his cause worthy of funding. The “problem is” that he is not correct, and that he is misleading people with his inertial inistance on pressing a diet which is NOT healthy in the long run so he can fund his perspective into the ground, and live out his retirement, pay for college etc. Just LOOK at his posture Adrien. He can’t stand upright any longer. He has the posture of an old asian man. Asians eat a lot of white and VERY starchy food – white rice. In his younger years I saw a vid where he mentioned that folks suggested that too much white starchy food is not good and he had a disgusted look on his face when he mentioned it (petulant like a child? – and startchy foods are a childs’ diet, btw) and dismissed the idea without so much as addressing his perspective on WHY – ie? unintelligent. He’s a petulant old man, as he was a petulant young man, starched out. And adult diet consistes of a core of greens and low starch veggies, then beans, and THEN maybe starchy rooters, and if you ask me, grains need be eliminated as we age period. He looked way better as a young man. . . which makes my point Adrien. You don’t need to take his side. You just need to see my point. If you want to address my comment, please just stick to the issues broached and contest them, rather than defend a man who is making foolish dismissals so he can line his pockets. Thanks. Best.

          1. John McDougall never say that you should eat ONLY starch. And humanity is NOT gluten intolerent dude ! Don’t think everyone is in the same situation as you. Human civilisation is living on starch right now, and has been for the dawn of time. Apart accusing him, you haven’t deal with any of my points or validate yours with scientific background or study. Indicating me that you’r just here to troll against John McDougall and his diet. A diet that, remember to us all, just happen to reverse heart disease, the most commom cause of death in America, and that kill 18 millions people over the globe. Atkins – with a T – just die with this disease, btw. It seems to me that you are more in business of keeping big industry money making machine running at the expend of our health than John McDougall is.

            1. You’re ranting now, in an irrational rage. It’s undignified and unintelligent and makes no points, but rages when your points are addressed and defunked. Please get a grip. Heart disease is healed not from HIS diet, but from a plant based diet. HIS diet says starch is core. Many folks don’t do well on it. Many can’t eat starch much at all. That’s all documented scientifically – celiacs is an example. HIS diet is just vegan with starch as core. He’s nothing new, but his contension of starch as core is obviously a problem he is unwilling to adress or consider because he needs funding. I’m done here.

              1. Adrien: You make some good points, and as just another poster here I appreciate your thoughts. But getting angry and making nasty accusations against Ruby’s motives just because you don’t like the post is not what discussion boards are about. We’re here to exchange ideas, not beat up people with a slightly different point of view.

                Ruby: I see what you’re saying and even Dr. Joel Fuhrman argues with Dr. McDougall on the need to emphasize nutritionally dense foods in our diets, not just starches. I followed Dr. McDougall on his radio show years ago, and read his books and have always thought his approach seemed incomplete. Others also complained that they did worse on a starch-based diet, although. (BTW, I always thought that beans and pluses (lentils) were also considered a starch.) People should know that they need to find the right foods for them on a plant based diet and to eat as great a variety as their body accepts. I’ve known and heard about people that try a plant based diet for a few days and if it doesn’t feel comfortable for them they immediately go back and say that they’re bodies need meat. Sometimes the body is just detoxing while the bad gut microbes die off and the good ones increase. Sometimes a food intolerance. Even after years, my body has a hard time with greens and certain veggies, but I just keep trying to take them in because they’re important and my body is slowly adapting to some.

                Anyway, I think discussions like these are helpful so we can see how others are trying to be well.

                1. MBGlife, thnks for your comment and support of sharing views and ideas. I want to make one comment abou your mention of beans. I am under the impression Dr McDugals favortie starches were grains and even more, potatoes of the starchy variety – al thiese foods create sugar spikes in blood, which I account for my intollerance of them all my life, even as a vegan which is how I started my adulthood, but I assumed they were my core food, so it was a LONG time before I even concieved deleting them for a trial, and discovering them as the CAUSE for my troubles. As for beans, they actually heal and balance high bood sugar levels. IE if they are too high, beans in the diet will lower sugar blood. Dr G has a vid on this in more depth. Beans are now my core diet and it’s UNBELIEVEABLE how I no longer have a crash after eating yet feel full and warm. As for digestion difficulties with those who try to get off meat, I have found their discomfort more from the digestion issues they uncover their body has, now trying to digest foods containing nutrients which have not already been predigested by the animals. And if they will integrate (as we all should anyway) fermets like krout and pickles and also acids(lemon is great) with and throughout all meals, those who get off meats tend to do fine, as long as they steer clear of starchy, blood spiking foods which are not what their body’s are used to. Beans and salads and veggie juices, is my 2 cents on the transition, and I speak for experience, going from vegan, to meat and salad(meat is easier to digest but hell on the mind and joints), to vegetarian with raw goat dairy ferments only(that killed me like poison), to grainless vegan who loves me some beans and feels great all around. I am still healing. My stant with raw dairy was just last year. Ok toodles!

                  1. It has taken me years to figure out which foods I can have a lot or only a little or not at all. It was a long hard, miserable time. But now I’m mostly ok. And it took years of eating only a little lettuce (any type) at a time before I could eat them without having a small, but ongoing uncontrollable discharge of a clear liquid fluid (someone said it might be that lettuce has latex and it might be that; I don’t know). But Inow seem to tolerate lettuce in normal amounts. So I know its all individual and takes time. Beans are my among my favorite foods. I several servings if have them or lentils every day. Nice to hear you’re finding and sharing what works for you. I’d skip worrying about trying to change others’ minds (like McDougall). It just distracts people’s from your real message, which is “here’s what worked for me”.

                    1. Aloha again. Interesting your trouble with lettuce. I wonder, do you think adding a ferment with your raw foods might help? Or fresh lemon? These to increase stocmach acid, which I wonder if the body’s ability gets compromised and needs help, after a stint in sickness or poor diet. I found them hepful after similar diegstion issues, and both lemon and ferments helped perfectly, as do very small meals at a time. Also, the antients always made ferments so it seems an old wisdom. I’d be interested in your feedback about this. . . To refer you your suggestion that my real message is “this is what worked for me”, it is not my message. My message was that the contensions made were quite obviously incorrect, as a means of conversation about those contentions and to have an intelligent conversation, or so I hoped(rather than open a hornets nest of someones defenses). When I mean to say “what worked for me”, that’s generally what I say, as I have here, about beans, and also as I have implied, about ferments. Cheers!

                    2. I’ve eaten a little active “live” sauerkraut with most meals for years. I actually produce too much stomach acid and have resisted going on any acid blockers for it and have tried to control it by watching trigger foods. But it recently got so bad that I finally agreed, after 7 years of resisting my doctors, to start do a 2 week course of an acid blocker. It’s working, but I hope to get off it again at the end of the 2 weeks. So, I know my problem is not too little acid and the problem was with lettuce and things I didn’t know I was allergic to, like sesame, and if I eat more than just a little of something. And the impact isn’t always to the stomach, sometimes it’s dizziness or optical migraines (caused from ripe bananas and avocados), hibiscus, makes me cough, and other food with other symptoms and blah blah blah. So, thanks for wanting to help, but I’ve mostly figured it all out ‘for me’.

                    3. Hm. Do you eat animal products at all? And, do you eat any grains at all? Your issues sound autoimmune and, if yes to either, I wonder if stopping grains would help? Sprouting the beans? And about fats, they are so necessary. What fats do you ingest and do you do so when yu eat your raw veggies? Dr G has a vid indicating studies that show an almost non digested salad vs a high nutrient absorption with the salad had fats with it, in dressing. I read just the other day, maybe I can find the site and link it for you, that indigestion due to LACK of stomach acid can phenom/present as symptoms of indigestion from LACK thereof, and suggested this is very often misdiagnosed. Just food for thought, as to trying other additions such as good fats, to aid your digestion. maybe seseme is not the right one. Is there a nut you gravitate to? Any thyroid related symptoms at all? Thyroid manages enzyme production as I understand, so there mey be a correlation. . . If so selenium may play a part, and brazil nuts be of help. I appreciate your sharing so much and hope our dialoge finds a tid bit of data that may prove helpful. :) Also, have you done any liver/gall cleanses?

                    4. Just curious: respectfully, do you have any feeling/thoughts/ideas/reaction to my contensions about the high glycemic index foods, such as most grains and starchy taters as perhaps being exacerbaters of your digestion sensitivities? I ask in earnest and from concern/interest, not contention. I can understand how my vehimence about Dr M’s error and blind side might meet with vehiment mirroring, lol. But with that past us, and your elucidation of your digestion issues (which would be an expected exacerbation from Dr M’s diet paradigm, which is why I was vehiment, as I have had my own digestion issues to batle and having discovered letting go of what I now understand are “high glycemic” starches, and adding ferments and acids with all meals, and making all of those meals small. . .. I find is my answer. And as long as I stick to that diet regime, I’m fine as frog hair. . . . So in that vein I share the idea and make my contentions. You know? So I’m asking about what you think of that idea about the high glycemic foods, and if they are at all a part of your diet and if so, might you notice any more trouble with those high glycemic foods. I ask since you still apparently have some issues severe enough to have you on pills, which you would rather not be on. Might this info be of use for your diet, and maybe be the answer to your present need for pills??? I’m intersted for personal and human reasons, as well as purely scientifically blood-houndish ones, as a lifetime healer/healee. Lol. I appreciate the elucidating diologue, and I find personal experience to be a better and much more pioneering way to get data. Thus your experience rates bigger than Dr M or any compiled study data. If you’re open to sharing and thinking on these things at all.

                    5. Without going into needless detail and clog the discussion board, I’ll just say this: I’ve been refining my diet for 30+ years; following this site almost since the beginning; read lots of books & blogs; and, experimented with various theories. I know your suggestions and lists of guesses are well meaning, but they’re not helpful. As I mentioned, food sensitivities & alergies are individual and I’ve done a very good job of working out mine. So, thank you for your concern, but please don’t worry about me. I’m actually in excellent health.

                    6. I too have struggled with health for my own 30yr stint. This is my reason for being open to the conversation with you, and the reason for my initial comment to your post. The subject I have been trying to address with you since my first comment to your post, to be a lead to what I have found is a soultion, MGBlife. I am just trying to help you, via conversation, but you seem unopen if the conversation leads to disagree with someone you hold in regard at this time. So if you are not interested in a conversation or information that could be an answer, then, I trust your doctors with continue to take good care of you. I certinly do not need to bother you with a topic you have covered. Wish you well then. Adieu again.

                  2. Hi Ruby: It appears there might be some confusion in terminology and I want to clear it up for those that might be reading this post.

                    You state: “I don’t do well on starchy food at all”

                    You also state: “I do well on beans” and “Beans are now my core food”.

                    Beans are a starch and they appear to be a staple for you.

                    Starch examples:
                    Grains: Barley, buckwheat, corn, millet, oats, rice, rye, sorghum, wheat, wild rice

                    Legumes: Beans, lentils, peas

                    Starchy Vegetables: Carrots, Jerusalem artichokes, parsnips, potatoes, salsify, sweet potatoes, winter squashes (acorn, banana, butternut, Hubbard), yams

                    1. Hm! Well, I appreciate the elaboration of what qualifies as starchy! And I am generally aware and perhaps I could have been more clear, but I believe I also mentioned about Dr McDougall that in many many hours of vids I never heard him mention any veggies at all, and seems to talk only of potatoes, siting a “study” of 2 athletes (thus with constitutions which would be WAY more attuned to a hugh glycemic index starches such as potatoes) on a diet soley of potatoes, a high starch of high glycemic index kind, which causes many digestion issues. I also mentioned his complete dismissal of the cancer causeing GMOS that are starchy, and any issues with celic disease and those who imply cannot digest gluten type starches and who diegst poorly on high glycemic kinds of starches. So I thougt my comments were qualified as such, despite that I did not address the wide array of starch based veggies, nor mention gylcemic index foods, since my comments were already taking up space and it seemed beyond the point being made, which was his unqualified dismissal of cancer causing GMO’s and celiac sufferers, while vying for donations from the same suffering crowd :). That’s just what he did. perhaps I should have sited the video I was refering to.

                    2. I know Ruby, hard to carry on a complex conversation via internet posts. I just wanted others to know that beans are indeed starches.

                      To address your follow up statements:

                      McDougall advocates for veggies and fruits – for example: “On the McDougall Diet, you may add as many green, red, yellow or orange vegetables as you wish to a meal….” “eat plenty of fruits and vegetables”.

                      If weight loss is the desire he states: “increase the amount of nonstarchy vegetables”, avoid flour products breads, pasta’s, etc. Simple meal plan: like sweet potato and broccoli or beans and rice with a non starchy vegetable, etc.

                      Foods to avoid:

                      He does recognize Celiac:

                      And GMO foods: “Just to be on the Safe Side: Avoid GMO foods”

                      I am not advocating for him just want to keep facts at the forefront. Thank you for understanding my stance.

                    3. The vid i refer to, where he is plugging the sick audience for funding, he completely disisses these two issues as unimportant and beside the point. Did you delet that post as well wehre I defend my contensions of his stance? Or is tha fact that after the funding plug his readdressing those issues at some later date, more important? You know, the point and the inspiration of my initial comment was his “business as usual” bumper sticker he uses to explain why coroiprations who own animal producing meat farms, dismiss health concerns raised, while he was doing the exact same thing in the vid I saw him in. Now that he has changed his tune and updated his stance after the funding party is over, does not make my elucidation of the quote i was commenting on, less hypocratic, therefore my words no more inflamitory or inapropriate here. Changing his stance later, as he may well, after the funding party was over notwithstanding, what he did puts his motives and thus his authority in a questionable light. . which is fair and just reporting of info and conversation here, surely. excpet that you deleted my elucidation. Who and what have you served?

          2. Ruby, what on earth do you mean by this comment “not grains, not veggies, STARCH”? You do realize he IS talking about grains and vegetables and not literally purified starch or something?

            1. Yes I do realize. You do realize he only mentions starch? I’ve seen several vids and all he seems to talk at length about is potatoes. It’s silly. he even claims some “study” he supposedly did with 2 (yes just 2 people) athletes who ate potatoes for 6 months and “did fine”. . . I jsyt think he has no basis for this idea and he is just a pilot fish, gleaning a diet idea from a basic plant based/vegan, and that he has no real diet at all, LOTS of reasons to support my idea, but this forum is not for that chat. I eat a vegan diet but stay as far from starch as I can, because I do not do well on starch AT ALL. Makes me VERY tired and sluggish – I don’t digest them. They make my hole system freeze u[p. I don’t eat grains because of this, nor potatoes (which he goes on and on about expressly because they are very high in starch, and make me sick literally, btw). It seems very apparent he does not have any real diet, and he dismisses GMO’s and celiac disease sufferers (I saw a vid where he literally said all that didn’t matter, if only they’d just eat starchy foods, the more starch the better).. . . So he would dismiss me if I were in his crowd asking why I as a vegan do very unwell with starchy foods and have to go to great lengths to avoid his idea of what we should all be eating. Starch raises blood sugar and those with blood sugar issues do better on low starch, high fiber. Resistant starches are ok for me and I do them sparingly, mostly in winter time, like beans, which actually lower blood sugar, as all resistant starches do. Hope that clarifies, but if not I have many posts on this topic here in this vid.

              1. I think you do him something of an injustice, as he says, all the world’s largest most successful populations are founded on some kind of starch based diets. Those are the great foods of the world we’re mostly familiar with, Barley, Corn, Millet, Oats, Sorgum, Rice, Rye, Pototoes and Wheat. This isn’t really controversial.

                As for your own circumstances I guess it’s perfectly possible you can’t eat starchy foods for some reason? I’m no expert.

                I’m sure he wouldn’t dismiss you, as you seem to think, he’s not out trying to deceive people or defend some false picture that would lead him to want to ignore your case, in fact if I judge his character correctly I think he’d be most sympathetic toward understanding your condition.

              1. You’re welcome! Sorry to not have been able to continue this discussion with you at that time. But I’m glad that others did. So you find out that you where following a starch-based diet after all ? ;) Beans are starch indeed, and the most nutritious one! I always wanted to use them as my core, since Dr. Greger talked about their amazing benefice, and I’m glad because I find some organic no salt added brand here in France without plastic coating inside.

                1. No, I was not and am not following a starch based diet at all. Beans are a certain kind of resistant starch, which is the only exception to any kind of starch I consume, for reasons you know well, if you went to the site you thanked me for sharing. But for instance they work exactly oppositely to starches in the body, lowering rather than spiking blood sugar levels, and they heal insulin absorption issues phenotyped in body issues like, but not limited to, diabetes. Alright? Beans are a small part of my calories, especially since winter is well over. You are repeating what Jaquiline said, and she was likewise making things up out of the air. I don’t know what is wrong with everyone here on this site, but my time here is well over, so I am just trying to be polite by responding. Dr McD is still what he is, quite apparently a corporate mole, duping folks into starches as if potatoes and other starches heal anyone, and are all we need, as if, OMG, frankly. It’s well documented ridiculousness, but I’ve quite well made my point and am done with posts as conversation on both this topic and site as well. As I said, I stick to the vids. You take care and please don’t write me again. The mental issues of people writing me on this site are disconcerting to me, and I am no longer able to respond any better than I have already. Please don’t harass me with this strange vein again, if you don’t mind. I don’t want to be rude, and I’ve made my point, if it’s to be absorbed – all my points are already documented here, unless they’ve been deleted, which I have no control over. My work here is done. Ok? Again take care. And you enjoy your brand named plastic bag beans dear. I will stick to making my own from scratch. Thanks again for the reminder of the site on resistant starches I had shared. take care.

      2. Hi Ruby, we actually welcome debate of the science and sharing of personal stories. However, we aim to make a place where people feel comfortable posting without feeling attacked by comments that are inappropriate, like personal attacks (here aimed at McDougall and in a subsequent post later on the page).
        So please, for everyone’s benefit, help us foster a community of mutual respect but keeping to the science and your story. Thank you, Jacquie

        1. In what way did my words “attack” McDougall? And in what way did I veer from science and my story please? I used scientific fact, common observation and my story to make my comments. the person I was making my comment to made irrational contentions to my mind but if you disagree, please be clear what I said you have contentions with please.

          1. Many comments Ruby, I will not repeat them all here but to give you a couple of examples:

            “this is quite apparent looking at him”, “which even he quite obviously does not do well on”, “look at his delapidated posture, panders, schleps,etc.

            1. These were just observations, made to qualify my statments, not slights of character Jacquie. Perhaps if you are going to make contentions and judgements, as I have, you should take the time to qualify them, rationally, as I have, so that they are not insulting and without reason. By your way of reason, we should not comment on any misdeads, of governement or corporations or persons, so as not to show them in a poor light – in other words hide their misdeads. I’ll not entertain this train any longer. Good day.

              1. Sorry, Ruby you feel this way as the comments I pulled can be easily seen in the context and you asked for examples. So as I first just asked that you refrain from personal attacks, please do so or I will need to delete that specific post – this is Dr. Greger’s request for this site.

                1. Again, I didn’t say you made up what I said, I said you pulled them from context, making my words seem like personal slights rather than the cogent and fairly made arguemtn to his diet paradigm and yes, his integrity, by the way he dismisses very plausible holes in his contensions, not unlike the wizard of Oz telling us not to pay attention to the man behind the curtain. Again, but your argument, you are essentially saying that when someone stands on a platform of authority, they are held unaccountable for fraud, so their flow of money and power will not be compromised. I understand it is a strong statement, but yet again, not without qualification. Bottom line is i think he should be held accountable, ESPECIALYY BECAUSE he is a medical professional, and that I think he knowingly and my contention is obviously paints himself in this light. . . . . expressely because he wants money. The validation for my journalistic contentions are in the video which I have now brought into this converstion as defense. In it, he expressely dismisses two audience members questions as to his stance on both celic disease, and GMO’s. He dismisses them out of hand, period, and claims they are NON ISSUES Jacquie, while they are quite obviously not non issues. . . . and all throug this vid, he makes please for money and donations. It can be easily deducted that he will not address these two questions because doing so may compromise his donation viability. I think this shows lack of medical integrity. This video makes my point, and shows the posture of this man who I suggest though it quite tall and smoothly complected (no toxins in his body from a plant based diet over a long time) he cannot stand errect. One must wonder why. My suggestion is his high glycemic starches which are all he talks about, that I have seen, in many hours worth of watching him. Jacquie, please hear me when I say, it seems WHOLLY irrespnsible and wreckless to dismiss a sick person’s question about celiac disease and HG starches when she is in the audience ahd he claims to want to help people. Pay no attention to that, you don’t matter, just do what I say, give me money and you’ll be fine, seems to be the message, however politely delivered. Someone like that women, and someone like myself, would be harmed by his dismissal, since he stands as authority. he should be held to ethical standards. From this vid alone, I contend his ethical standards are questionable at the least, if not down right harmful. If Dr G condones this kind of thing, or will not tollerate eluciadation of knowingly unethical perspectives by his peers, I would lose respect. I hope if you do decide to delete my comments, you will at the very least run this matter by him before you make such a decision. This may be considered by you to be a grey matter, but to me, my words all stand as qualified journalism and not slander and certainly not libel. Like you, I feel it’s important to let those speak, but to offer other arguements, as long as the comments are qualified and not sloppily slanderous. Thank you for your consideration.


                2. I hope you will watch the vid and honor my request to run this mater by Dr G before you do that yanking of my cogent and valid elucidative comments about Dr M, his diet and his dismissals to keep from retarding funding of his ideas. And will reread the post below this one which now include the video I refer to, and I think smart suggestion that Dr G may not want to align with the lack of medical integrity aludded to in it. Also, in yanking my contensions you perpetuate his dismissal of pertinant question to his stance on starches as core, which is participating in covering up info that may cause people harm, as it would have me, had I listened to him as an authority on the matter, and likewise dismissed the audence questions as a non issue (including his dismissal of GMO’s in the diet). My intensions were to keep others from being harmed. Deleting my post would allow that harm a potential my post might have disarmed. You and Dr G will be responsible for such a harm if it happens, even if so without you knowing. That will be your choice, and your karma on your record.

                  1. Ruby, your posts will not be deleted for providing information. As I said prior, It is just the personal attacks on anyone, MD or not, that we as a team are trying to prevent.

                    1. I made professional comment. Nothing personal whatsoever, in any way, an be infered nor was implied, and I have addressed your repeated suggestion more than needs be any further, yet you persist in your unfounded contentions without so much as one rebuttel, which is painitn me in colors you are wearing. this is likewise unprofessional for your position. I understand your position is not an easy one to be in judgement, and perhaps you were swayed in your judgements by the infamitory reaction to my initial post, and wanted only to sooth her pain. Nonetheless, her contentions are not rational if you really look at what I said and why. And since my small chat with her today, it seems very apparent to me from her terrible health and long standing digestion issues which I personally commiserate with more than either of you could know, that she sounds very much in pain to the point of being unable to take in any further info on this matter which I was trying to address and make contact with her, in hopes of helping her, because I think I have the digestion thing nibbed, and I hoped to be able to share how and why, but she is still in a defensive stance over my insult of someone she regards with respect, and so is not able to hear anything I suggest against him or his ideas, since to her they are married. It is unfortunate and sad. But if you leave my words, perhaps at some later date she can listen, and maybe continue the chat, as we almost started again this morning before your caustic adressing in her stead distracted that chat.. . . I thought I could not see my original post any longer, so if it is still up, my appologies. As consession to you, after all words said, I regret my passions and defence of my own view were frothy enough to close ears to someone I might have helped, because she is that injured on so many levels. In this case it would have been better if my delivery were more cool and dry, but as consession to myself also, it makes me VERY angry when those with the platform of authority, use it for their own means, which is what I think I observed in that video, and it’s infuriating frankly – we’ve all be so mislead for money reasons etc, I am not alone in my anger as a rule, and outing tis kind of thing is an imperative, so I’d rather err on the side of speaking too loudly than too quietly to be heard. I think it is very important to communicate with humility and an open mind, always aware that your ideas are the next level in an ever widening vista, and not to petulantly disregard cogent arguments, as I have observed the MD is question do, via video, over the course of his career. That said I agree and appreciate a lot of his work and sharing of plant based diets, and I took a long time and many many vids with a totally open mind and setting aside my contentions of his petulant dismissals, giving him girth to be human before I assessed him as irresponsible, soely from that vid where he is pandering for donations. To do this when he looks for funding is an entirely different matter, and NOT human err. . . and in so doing he resembles his accuzations of corportae mogels he critizises, the hypocracy of which was more than fair to point out, is still the point I hold to.

                      I appreciate your entertaining the lengthy dialoge. I think the matter has been combed through to anyone’s satisfaction that I can imagine. Lol. Have a good eve Jacque.

      3. John had an injury that affects his posture, from years prior, he his the best researched, read his book section on allergies, delayed, to be a detective for what you personally are allergic too. see for the truth about protein.

      4. Ruby, fyi, I have not seen anybody mention this ..but… He had a massive stroke at age 18, that he did not recover 100% from. His posture could be attributed to that. Has done infinitely more to bring health to many people than most people could ever dream of.

    3. Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
      Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.” Dalaï Lama

      LOL!! I used to say the same essential same thing to my dad when I was young. He was old and friendless and hd 3 heart operations by the time he retired, with more money than he could spend, and no ability to have fun with it. . . .That was a great quote. Thanks for sharing.

  2. Beautiful video, bravo again!!

    Is Burkitt the self-same Burkitt of “Burkitt’s lymphoma”? That, and nasopharyngeal carcinoma, were the only two types of malignancy which were more common in China than in the West, and have oncogenic viral origins (HTLV-1 and HTLV-2).

    I also appreciate Adrien’s lovely quotes below.

      1. Dr. McDougall has a youtube about how Dr. Burkitt was one of his mentors…you can see a video of Dr. McDougall interviewing Dr. Burkitt, good stuff! Lots of talk about Dr. Burkitt living and working in Africa.

      2. Dr Greggor, I would like to request your oversite of a decision made by one of your staff about comments made here a while back and a dialogue that ensued today as a result, which ended in the removal of my comment. In so doing, I contend that what was essentially removed was elucidation of lack of ethics on a collegue of your’s Dr McDougall. the contensions made to me about my comment seemed unfounded. Yet when I confronted the lack of foundation, I was dismissed, and then my comment removed. In so doing I contend you and your site’s responsibility is to elucidate potentially damaging and unethical suggestion by a professional in your field. This professional did 2 things which I think were unethical, and I stated both and qualified boith contentions with a video of his actions and statements which i will state simply here: 1) In a video where he was on stage to elucidate his diet suggestions, and get funding for his paradigm, he dismissed, out of hand 2 cogent contensions with his supposed ideas. His audience was filled with, obvious to me, sick people. One of them asked him about the dangers of GMO’s (proven as cancer agents as I understand it). His answer was abject dismissal as GMO’s being a non issue and unimportant. according to him, in this vid, where he is obviously trying to get funding, and staes this through out the video, his answer to this woman was that as long as someone was eating the starch diet, the GMO issue would be unimportant. (A cancer causing agent unimportant???), Secondly another person asked about those with celiac disease, and he similarly dismissed this as a non issue on his diet. I think he may have said it would be ok to avoid gluten if it was desired, but as I recall, he seemed to imply it was an option, not a necessity. This seems highly inflamitory statements crossing the boarder of ethical, to suggest a cancer agen was no longer important if adhering to his diet, and that a disease causing strong autoimmune responses could be dismissed, or not, depending on preferencve alone, as opposed to medical and ethical prudence. My comments and the discussion is lengthy, due mostly to one person on your site who took personal offence to my elucidation of a possible ethical nature regarding a Dr she apparently held in high regard. Her post of one of his quotes inspired my initial and now removed comment. In case my comment is no longer available, I will clarify the reason it inspired my rebuttle post. the quote was from his video, it was a quote he is known for, a quote meant to make comment on the corporate stance in favor of animal proteins. He is known for saying their stance is not conspiracy, but “business as usual”, meaning they have there bills to pay, and economic agenda. his quote inspired my initial comment in question, and now removed, because of the video I site where he panders the audience for funding, while dismissing thsoe 2 very important issues which conflict with, or are at least questions that certainly diserve to be addressed with more than dismissal, if not respectable and cogent enough to deserve plausably addressed answers by this professional. The vid is up, or if it has now been deleted I can certainly resend it to you. I thank you for your site in it’e entirely, and for your consideration of this very important issue of a peer’s ethical stance, your the decision of your site workers to delete what seems to be a highly important elucidation for those who are seeking health, and to avoid cancer. I am almost guffawed that my elucidation of his dismissal of GMO’s as being dangerous was removed from this site. I hope you will agree, as so far I have the highest regard for you and your work, while i regard many in your profession will markedly less respect, and my opinion comes from being from a family where everry single one holds a place in the medical profession, so it is my roots. I hope you will consider this situation with due gravity. Aloha.

      3. Gracious sir, have you found and info on burtyric acid? I found some astonishing info today I wanted to share in hopes of seeing a vid from you with more detail. It connects eating beans which are resistant starches containing butyric acid and what that does, in addition to lowering blood spikes and much more. One thing that I take note of regarding butyrate, (as a suffereer of a neurological issue and ATP creation), is this quote from the second link: ” It also massively increased the function of their mitochondria, the tiny power plants of the cell.” I hope you will agree it and resistant starches like beans (a good llist would be awesome) merits some scouring. Here are the two links(the second comes from the first, from clicking the word “article” in the body):

        Thanks for all Dr G.

      4. Dr Greger, Toxic has deleted my posts alerting him that you showed a study(from your vid in 2001 at what looked like a school – the one titled a vegan dies of heart attack at 40) which indicated that vegetarians who “occasionally ate meat” lived longer than both vegans and meat eaters. Toxic was admonishing/advising a poster to to stay clear of meat 100% so as not to “overdo”, and I thought that study was pertinent to his advice. He deleted my post of the elucidation of your study, after petulantly reacting to my suggestion your study existed, saying it didn’t, and after I responded again with the video and told him where to find the study you indicated in that vid. His reactionary return post to that elucidation indiacted he had not read my post, nor watched the vid: he said only that the title of it was irrelivant and again demand that I show him a study. He obviously did not read either of my posts Dr G. He seems very high strung and reactioanry and unprofessionally vitriolic. I alerted him that he was in a reactive stance and obviously not reading either of my posts and that’s when he deleted all of them. I think Toxic seems to have a problem. The name seems way too indicitive of the personality, and unbecoming to say nothing of wholly unprofessional. I thought you should know . . . If there has been a more detailed and better study ragarding occasional meat eating, I’d like to know about it.

        1. Ruby,

          I still see your comment. I think I’ve figured out that if you click an older email link, the newer comments don’t show for that viewing- only what was posted up until that point. If you want to see your comment, go up into the URL and delete the “comment #******” from the end of the address and click enter. The missing comments will appear.

          For future reference, you can also get a direct link to your comment by floating your cursor over the small “share” button under your post after you make it- a mini-menu will slide out and if you click the icon that looks link a chain link, the URL will update to reflect the direct link to your comment and you can copy it from there.

          1. Oh wow. I had no idea. Maybe that’s what happened the other day too. And I’ll take not of hovering over the “share button” if I have any future issues with worry over deleteion from this staff. Lol. Thanks so much for alerting me and your kind direction. So nice of you! I find the other posters here so warm and freindly and sharing, while having had some real personality issues with Dr G’s staff. Pretty ironic really. Lol. Again, so appreciated Phaedra. Aloha nui!

          2. Nope, I don’t see them after deleting “comments” from the URL. They’ve been deleted by Toxic. I was refering to my alerting him below this post to his comment to guet about Toxic’s advice to him/her to absatain 100% from meat. My alert to Toxic was of a study elucidated in one of Dr G’s vids indicating that vegetarians who ate meat “on occasion” lived longer than both vegans, vegetarians who abstained 100% and meat eaters of course. I hope Dr G gets some alpha energy on his staff. They seem to me to relay info less and advise more, which I do not apreciate at all, as I have my own ideas and love Dr G’s studyes, and info sharing and have no interest in being advised without invitation. I don’t appreciate their tone at all and would like to stay clear of any interaction with them and just stick to chat with other posters. It’d be nice if that could happen. I’ve made Dr G aware, so it’s his ball from here. I’ll just try from here to stay clear of them and ignore any uninvited commentary. Thanks again and cheers Phaedra.

            1. Can I ask you to try one more thing? From the page, click on your user icon (the picture itself, not the name). A smaller activity window will pop up and your comments will all show there. If you find your elusive comment there, click the blue timestamp next to your name, and it’ll take you directly to its location on the page. If it doesn’t show there, it has been deleted.

              1. When I do as you suggest and hover over my icon pic, I can go to my profile and see the comments but they are not here on the page, below, where I made them, even when I eliminate #comment etc from the url. Are you seeing my comments on this page or via my profile??

                1. If it shows in your profile, it hasn’t been deleted from the page. Try clicking the blue timestamp from your profile, it’ll say something like “12 hours ago”. Then click the gray “X” in the upper right hand corner of the popup window, and the comment that goes with the timestamp you clicked should be visible when the box closes.

                  I’m seeing your comments in both places.

                  1. Man. This is a trial and you’re a trooper. I didn’t have this issue with my other staff member volly on this vid. Ok I’ll try. Thnks

                  2. Howdee. Looks like your comment got sanitized too Phaedra. No suggesting anything off color of the staf here or off with her head hu? Lol. Priceless. You’re dleted post was so mater of fact and clearly stated, but stil a no no. Personally I’m no longer interested in dialogue with the oversite (insert adjective here). 6 Years up and this place is still a ghostown. It’s no wonder. well, I’m done with the click club myself – I can’t wear a pink ballerinas tutu, and take myself or anyone else seriously, and since that is apparently the uniform, and anyone not wearing it is scrubbed off, I’m done with posts on this site. Just wanted to jump in a jiff and say thanks, and see if you saw that even your post agreeing with me was deleted. I thought that was funny white washing. Like, leave no trace of a disturbence. Lmao. Anywho, cheers to ya.

  3. were the people in these studies eating any meat, fish, or poultry, even in small amounts? Were they able to maintain the absence of these mentioned diseases while still eating some (yet small) amounts of fish, meat, and or poultry? Also, I am wondering what the people were doing to get their vitamin B12. Very nice video today. Thanks for any input on letting us know the daily ounce amount of animal products these people were consuming.

    1. Hi guest,
      If you look below the video in sources cited all the research articles used to put it together are listed. That should help with your questions.

      1. Thank you. I think it would help us if Dr. Greger mentioned the amount of animal products these people were, on average, able to continue to consume, and still avoid modern day diseases. The irony of these studies is that they are proving that people are, in fact, able to eat minimal amounts of animal products and still maintain absence of these diseases. Correcting me if I am wrong (maybe i am missing something in my logic here) but don’t these inadvertently show this?

        1. I think it is reasonable to say that there is an amount of animal products that can be consumed that will not cause any noticeable health problems. I think the issue is we have no idea how much this is, and that it is in human nature to overdo an allowance of a food that can be easily overconsumed. Modern day uses meat as the star of the dish, whereas in actuality it should be only a small condiment used on occasion. The okinawans, for example, had the most centenarians per capita and they consumed, on average, 70 calories per day of animal products. 70% of their diet is the purple sweet potato so this highly nutritious food may also counteract and alleviate any consumption of animal products. I think overall, the cons outweigh the good for animal products, and I can see it being used as a condiment occasionally, but I think this is difficult to apply. It would be the safest, most practical and most beneficial to simply not consume any animal products rather then try to consume a very tiny amount.

          1. There is also the ethical argument to be made against eating meat, as in Safran-Foer’s book “Eating animals”. I, personally, find it very persuasive. Even if it were healthy to eat a little bit of animal protein every day, I believe one can be optimally healthy on a 100% plant-based diet and eat more ethically in that fashion. Causing undue suffering to sentient lifeforms does not provide me with psychological or spiritual health……

            1. Agreed. I like Toxin’s wording and argument. You add one more great argument.

              And then there is the third argument that I also find persuasive. According to statistics I have seen, the animal industry is the largest contributor to global warming – a health issue (life and death) for all of us and an ethical issue (looking after future generations). Between all three of those arguments, the idea of eating any animal products has no appeal for me.

            2. I agree, I read Eating Animals which prompted my veganism. I feel that an ethical backing is not as persuasive as enforcing good health. I center my dietary ideals primarily around the health aspects although I fully understand the ethical argument and do have that as one of my foundations for this diet. People are much more convinced to change their diet for their own health, as is selfish human nature.

              1. You’re absolutely right. But if people understood what goes on in a factory farm and slaughterhouse, they might become on-the-spot vegans! Unfortunately, we as a society are totally hermetically protected against knowing the source and methods of any of our food production, particularly animal products. It is an unknowing conspiracy of silence. What got me vegetarian (but still initially consuming fish and dairy) was health, and then what took me all the way to veganism was Buddhist ethical practice. So everyone has a different story.

                1. What got me started was gagging when I ate a piece of meat and hit gristle or a ligament (like in a chicken leg). Plus, I would always wonder while chewing, “did this thing have cancer or some animal disease; was it rotting before processing; what hormones and additives did they give it?” I decided to try going vegan for just one day, but after eating just breakfast and lunch it was such a relief to avoid all that stuff that I never went back. The more I learn all these years later (especially on this site), the happier I am that made that change. And back in the day it was hard to do because there weren’t many dining options with friends or at restaurants, and people really got on your case for being one of those crazy, misguided hippies. Quite different than today, and I did it in California, not the beef belt in Texas.

                  1. mbglife: It’s always interesting to me what exactly it is that causes people to make a change in their life path. (Sort of like, “How did you two meet?”) Thanks for sharing your story.

            3. I would like to agree but due to Dr G’s video and elucidation of the study I mention above, I hold my idea about this matter in abeyance for now. For now, my tatsebuds enjoy it, but something about meat feels wrong. affects my mind. makes me want bad things, for no reason, out of the blue, when otherwise I have no craving issues at all, whatsoever. I hope, that the study I refer to that Dr G references, is true perhaps because the folks on the diet did not eat as balanced and well digested diet as could be, with ferments, and greens and fastdious attention to orgnic, propper nuts and such as good fats, etc etc. Fingers crossed, and I think, tentatively, I aslo agree. . . with only a slight reserve. And if I do feel a need to indulge, it’s not an idea that makes me happy frankly. :) So I hope there was s loophole in that study. Lol.

          2. The Okinawans centenarians also have something identified as a “longevity gene” in the Okinawa Centenarian Study

            “Okinawan centenarians have HLA (human leukocyte antigen) genetic polymorphisms that place them at lower risk for inflammatory and autoimmune diseases (see figure below: Takata et al., Lancet 1987).”

            “[L]ongevity tends to run in families. In support of this, we found that a mortality advantage exists for centenarian siblings versus their age-matched birth cohorts. This advantage appears sustained over the course of the siblings’ lives. At each 5-year age interval until age 90 years, siblings of Okinawan centenarians maintained approximately a 50% lower mortality risk. This resulted in an average of 11.8 years extra lifespan compared to their age-matched birth cohort.”

            This has nothing to do with diet.”

            1. In the short view, but you can’t say so in the long view, that diet does not create the gene inertia – chicken or the egg scenario seems to me.

            2. And yet their offspring eating an American diet are dying younger. So diet is a factor. Also, we know foods can turn many genes on or off.

          3. Well, according to Dr G’s video, clinical studies show that those vegetarians who consumed meat “on occasion” lived longer than either meat eaters, staunch vegetarians, and vegans, (who consumed no meat at all), so your suggestion to eiminate meats entirely for fear of overdoing, as being unhealthy, directly contradicts the data Dr G has shared, which is that to live longer, as well as healthier, having meat “on occasion” is the way to go. Am I wrong?

            1. Dr. Greger has showed that meat can lead to disease, and even small amounts such as with diabetes aggravates the disease. He has never demonstrated studies that show pure vegans suffer due to lack of meat. The IGF-1 videos are an example of this, how one must be completely vegan to achieve the benefits of lower IGF-1.


              1. You mean have shown. Or has shown. Grammar. :)

                I guess though you work for him, you haven’t seen all his vids. As I said, he described studies of what I said. I didn’t make it up in my imagination. You could have just asked where I heard him say it, rather than dismiss my words and contend he didn’t, especially since you obviously haven’t seen al his vids or know his work so thoroughly. Toxins. In it he clearly and unequivocally states exactly what I said: vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters all live about the same length of time(though meat eaters much less healthily), but vegitarians who ate meat on occasion lived slightly longer than the rest, interestingly.

                Enjoy the vid:

                1. The upshot of the video is that vegans should get adequate b12 and omega-3s, not that meat is necessary to prolong life.

              2. You also state above in reply to another poster ‘I think it is reasonable to say that there is an amount of animal products that can be consumed that will not cause any noticeable health problems’, so you are even contradicting yourself. You seem rather confused and sharing conflicting views in the same post. You work for Dr Gregger? Really?

                1. My point was we don’t know how much is too much, not that we should include a tiny bit to be on the safe side. I am not contradicting myself. If you have studies to share then please do, otherwise we are arguing word choice and nothing more.

                  1. No. We’re not. At all. You keep changing the subject. Hm. . . . Your initial point was to argue my elucidation that Dr G relayed a study that SOME meat, on OCCASION, made vegitarians LIVE LONGER. Your statement implies that any meat is bad but perhaps not “too bad”, so you councel abstinance to combat having “too much”, which would have adverse affects, and so best to be safe than sorry, which seemed to imply you did not know of Dr G’s vid where he relayed a study showing how meat eating “on occastion” made vegetarians live LONGER. IE. Total abstinance from meat, according to Dr G relayed study, would cause a earlier death to those with a plant based diet.

                    Your response to that was reactionary denial of my contension, then defence with references that did not even reference what I said Toxic, as if you didn’t read it – going on about diabetes and such and saying Dr G said no such thing. If you were not aware of Dr G’s relayed study I was refering to, rather than change the subject and defend an off topic, all you had to do was ask me for the reference of Dr G which I was refering to, rather than contest that he said anything of the kind and change the subject to diabetes and the detriments of a cornivore diet – which had nothing to do with what I said at all. You must be having a chaotic Tuesday. Anywho, here’s the vid link. Enjoy and see the point you missed. It’s about 3/4 through as the grand finale study, which dropped my jaw frankly. . . I don’t really want to eat any meat at all, and feel much better mentally and physically when I don’t. . . . But I do want to live a good long while as well, so, study or no, jury’s out on this topic for my concerns. I just thought your cautioning absolute abstinance was, for one, in contradiction with Dr G’s own study relays, and as such, not a good representation of his work, which this site, and you as a staff member, are meant to represent, and if you were speaking unawares, I thought I would inform you, and the poster you were advising, in Dr Gregers stead.


                    1. I am not here to debate with you the exact word choice of Dr. Greger or myself. Nor do I think it is surprising if a vegan died of a heart attack, as “vegan” is a broad term and does not at all equate to the health of a diet. Again, I suggest you share studies rather then ramble on and on about who said what. If you choose to respond again do so wisely, as another long winded reply misconstruing my statements will not receive a response by me. I will repeat again, share STUDIES if you have them showing that low fat vegan diets are less healthful then vegetarian diets.

                    2. i don’t know what’s wrong with you mentally and emotionally, but I already sighted the study dear, in the post this yet another angry rant is irrationally reacting defensivly to. The video and directions to whereabout in the video is also there.

                      You have some kind of problem. This is Dr G’s relayed study, as I said in my very first comment to you. Man, your name sure suits you.

                      So at the risk of overwhelming you, here’s your quote I was refering to when I communicated about Dr G’s study: “I think it is reasonable to say that there is an amount of animal products that can be consumed that will not cause any noticeable health problems.”. . . .

                      This means that some may be ok and not harmful, but suggests none is of course better and safer. The STUDY indicated the opposite, that SOME is beneficial so much that it lengthens life. PERIOD Toxins. Period. Thats’ the entire gist. It is NOT more beneficial to abstain entirely, suggest STUDIES, relayed by your boss and the author of this site. Sakes alive. Whew! Lol. I’m done here.

                    3. Ruby– I’ve deleted your last comment. I think I can tell that you aren’t trying to hurt anyone’s feelings here, but if I were Toxins, I don’t think I would appreciate being insulted or called names. We do take this “no ad hominem attack” policy very seriously. We really want to keep this a safe and tolerant place for everyone and that comes down to treating each other and responding to arguments we might not agree with, with respect. I hope you can appreciate that. I don’t like to repeat this again, but if you cannot stick to this agreement in your comments, we will have to ban you from commenting. Thank you!

                    4. Seeing as Toxins is a moderator himself, does he really need you to delete comments, or couldn’t he be allowed to determine for himself whether he found a comment insulting enough to delete and then do so of his own volition?

                      Has the posting policy for this forum changed recently?

                    5. I typically do not delete comments when aimed at me unless they get severe. The study you speak of is interesting. Of course we would have to analyze what the vegan diet constituted of, as the opposing diet consisting of fish provides mass amounts of pollutants. Do you know of a direct hyperlink to the study?

                    6. The vegsource article points out the vegans were near overweight, consumed a relatively high fat diet, and did not eat to the standards of a low fat whole foods plant based diet, as advocated here.

                    7. If you’re making a case for the overall quality of a diet, I agree with you. However, it is just as likely that the omnis and vegetarians were eating similar quantities of junky food (unless you believe that the standard occasional meat-eaters and pescatarians have some motivation that vegans don’t have to eat a higher quality diet?). The point being made was that in the two largest studies looking at disease and longevity in the different groups, no difference was found– and that as Dr. Greger pointed out, the occasional meat-eaters and fish-eaters had the best health, neither being strictly PB. If meat worsened disease risk all on its own, the vegetarians and omnis should be less healthy than the vegans, even if both groups eat some junky food. If you think Dr. Greger doesn’t understand the data, maybe a special request from you would get a more comprehensive response from him. He seems to give you some special leeway.

                    8. Since, not just my assessment of him as having mental and emotional issues based on the two irrational defensive responses from Toxic, where he seemed to not even be reading what I said, or addressing my words within, in my very last post, but the entire line of my post was deleted, including the link to the vid with the study and directions to it (offered in the post before his repsonse demanding it), I’ll leave it here for you Phaedra, so someone has it. I’ll also forward my deep concerns to Dr G. He’s obviously got some rserious plroblems with hsi staff.

                      If you get about 3/4 way through the vid he has a kind of grand finale of studies as to who lives the longest, and vegetarians who ate meat “on occasion” won out over both those who abstained 100% and those who ate it freely, who both, interstingly, die about the exact some time. THAT’s why I thought Toxic’s advice to abstain 100% contradicted prudence and Dr G’s studies, and was, ironically, perhaps toxic.


                    9. I just found this and wasn’t informed in my email. What about the content of what I was sugesting and the study?? And hsi misinforming a poster with info that conflicts with Dr. G’s study? How are your standards helping ayone and not helping a staff member misinform and insult(me). What about his vitriloc, defensive reply indicating he did not even ready the study I offered him?? What about that my initial post was VERY polite and his respinse what reactionary and defensive without cause? What about all that?? You delete ME because I was respondning normally to vitriolic reactionary irrationality?? What the heck is going on here?

                    10. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding, I thought you’d seen that particular message so I thought you were referring to a different comment being deleted. I’ve already objected to the nanny-state feel of the new commenting rules, but now that you’re pointing the specifics out, it does seem really biased, and maybe getting Dr. Greger involved is the best thing. If you aren’t allowed to voice your opinion about the impact that diet has on a person’s physical stature without it being seen as an attack, there will never be any kind of truly energetic debate here. But even so, if you’re not allowed to make uncomplimentary observations about someone else, why would a moderator be allowed to make them about you?

                      The warning for your description of Dr. McDougall, someone who isn’t a guest in this thread, as looking unwell does not match up with Toxins’ replies to you. You’ve been accused of rambling on and on, of responding unwisely and of being long-winded- all personal attacks, and you are actually a part of this community. He wasn’t taken to task for any of that. Maybe Dr. Greger will address it if you continue to press him to respond. He said “Pushing visitors away from the gems on this site (which is already happening) we’ll create a small, intellectually homogenous community – which smacks of “isms” more than healthy scientific skepticism”. Hopefully, he really means that.

                    11. Thank you so much for your suport an conveying Dr G’s mental paradigm of ism’ness being an unwanted. Hooray! That’s so comforting to hear but not surprising. he seems QUITE an intelligent man. Lots of respect for him, and this site is a gem. These staff members are a problem, I thought so since I started tooling around but took my time making this assessment. I guess the hornets nest has them all outed at this point so that’s a good thing. Indeed they all seem to be herding this forum EXACTLY to ism land with their little cloistering of bullying, while also, misinforming intentionally, and subverting important clarifying info, in the name of slander. I say call a spade a spade, and spare no grease, but make SURE you have the backing in data, or shut up til you do. Otherwise? No censorship of opinions and info. I have never made one unqualified statement against anyone, meaning not without a host of data and evidence, and at that point, I acess that data, share it, and call it what it is, with a descriptive word, such as mentally instable and irrational, and vitriolic and petulantly defensive and shwoing clearly that he, Toxic, was not even reading my post. His postings show mental instability and an aggrressively volcanic personality. I can also say taking my post down was subversive, and can only be interpreted as intentionally done to mislead the poeple here (I’m refering now to the post which was deleted which I gave you the video for). In addition JacquieRN has shown some mentally twisted analogies, when equating a whole fresh coconut with 80% medium chain fatty acids and only 20% long chain, to a coke, with water (dr G did a vid of this analogy when a corporate sponser said coke had some good things like getting folks to drink water). At best extending that analogy to a coconut is at the very least reversing the percentages (80% bad and 20% water – if you can even say water is anywhere near 20% of that equuation) while a coco is 80% good and arguably 20% “bad”, but it’s a whole food so that analogy belly flops for me right there and then. her analogy was just a big error in calculation and thus wholly erroneous. As a staff member, to relay such inanities seems WAY out of line, and to my mind, I’d hold a staff member to a much higher standard of information dissemination than posters at random seems prudent, if not responsible. That someone on his staff would make such a faux pas seems like a big red light to me. Another example of irrationality and questionable mental abilities. Anyone can have a brain fart, but staff should take time to think before they type, if anyone should. I think the whole lot, 3 of the 4 I’ve now dealth with, seem to have some very deep mental and personal emotional issues and if this were my site I’d do some serious spring cleaning. I won’t be laying down on this and will be making a doccument of all my posts from here on out so no evidence gets lost. I wish you could have read Toxic’s replies to my post. he seems like a deeply disturbed person, and I say so becase staff should be of a different ilk, especially if they are going to posture as authorities as all his posts seem to by my measuring stick(which is another contention I have with the staff – even Dr G gives NO OPINIONS AT ALL. he shares nothing but studies ad data and rational conclusions that can be easily and plainly seen. These poeple have the sticker “staff” on every post and type away with all thei opinions like they are gods. No one should be giving unqualified opionions. My opinions are always conjunct reasons for my own assessments, and I appreciate other posters with qualified ideas and story sharing. These staff members are creating a TOTTALLY DIFFERENT environment, and I am going to make the case to Dr G and see if he’ll scour posts to see the character quality and mental eruditeness of his staff. I think something is deeply wrong here so I hope I can get Dr G’s attention. I won’t stop till I get at least that done. From there it’s his ball, since it’s 100% his site.. . . I may be long winded but not without pith. ;) And it takes making a case to get to these folks, and even that seems to not be cracking any skulls of conmprehension. I’m on a mission at this point. Lol. Take care and thanks for your supoort Phaedra.

                    12. Dearest Jacquie, there is no real point in responding to this post from you, since the post you are referring to, and the post it was in response to, from another supportive guest of my general contentions therewithin,, has also been likewise sanitized from view and removed. I dare suggest that this post to you may well never make it to your email, because of the content suggested within, shining an unseemly light on the moderator of this site, and the sanitization regime applied to the content attempted to be shared here. However in hopes that this will somehow make it to your gentle eye, I will invite you to continue this conversation in personal email, so we will always have the content to refer to, and we can avoid this scrubbing happenoing here. I would enjoy that opportunity. Here is my email addy: rubifyitatgm. . . Fingers crossed my friend. Adieu

                    13. Just in case, I want to say this, I could not see this initially for obvious reasons, but I now realize you have been caught in the crossfire from the git-go, and have been trying to do what you percieved as your job, innocently enough, and well meaning. I’ll leave further comment to you for an email chat if you got the email addy and wish to do that. rubifyitat gmail. Otherwise again, I bid you adieu.

                    14. Toxins

                      Dr. Greger was citing the SDA study. It found that fish eaters and occasional meat-eaters were the healthiest groups, above vegans, vegetarians and SAD-eating omnis.

              3. You would fast foward through most of the video. That study finding was part of his grand finale, at least 3/4 through. Great vid. Hope you enjoy.

        2. In “The China Study” by T. Colin Campbell, they were able to show statistically that even small introductions of animal products increased the likelihood of disease.

            1. I was not referencing the casein studies, which were not part of the “China Study”. I was referencing the statistical evidence collected in the “China Study” itself as commented on by T. Colin Campbell.

              1. The only actual RCTs done by Campbell were done with casein. The rest was observational. His research showed nothing but that RCTs were needed to tease out the cause. He also found a 4-times higher risk correlation from wheat, something that the Chinese eat a significant amount of.

                His own data showed a stronger correlation between disease and plant protein than animal protein.

                1. I don’t know the source of your information, but it is incorrect. I suspect it was the Denis Minger article, whose criticisms have shown to be totally incorrect because she misapplied the statistics and had no knowledge of the statistical analysis it takes to correctly asses the data.

                  1. I’ve read the China Study and all of the supporting data from beginning to end. My source is the China Study.
                    Just share the data that you believe supports your assertion. People love to share the “body” but mostly they have no idea what the actual research shows.
                    So just share the actual data and skip the vague references.

                    Campbell finds the regions that eat the most meat also eat the most wheat. So tell me, how can we conclude that it is meat and not wheat causing the disease?
                    Campbell writes, “[The] correlation of wheat flour and heart disease is interesting but I am not aware of any prior and biologically plausible and convincing evidence to support an hypothesis that wheat causes these diseases.” ~The China Study
                    Even though in “Diet, lifestyle, and the etiology of coronary artery disease: the Cornell China Study,” he writes, “[T]he wheat-flour effect appears to be independent of meat consumption, so enhancement of coronary artery disease risk by wheat consumption may be a possibility.

                    This IS from Minger’s blog–

                    These are quotes from several individuals that Campbell has dubbed his “physician colleagues”:
                    “Many scientific studies show a strong association between the consumption of white flour products, such as pasta and bread, with diabetes, obesity, and heart disease. … Whole grains are the least nutrient-dense food of the seed family, and they do not show the powerful protection against disease that is apparent in the scientific studies of fresh fruit, vegetables, beans, raw nuts, or seeds.” ~Dr. Joel Furhman
                    “My experience has been that people who are having problems getting their … triglycerides under control need to stop using refined flour products and simple sugars.” ~John McDougall (the “Starch!” guru)

                    1. Even assuming the wheat effect is true, that does not reverse the findings on animal products. The “China Study” findings on animal products have been corroborated by many other types of studies (not epidemiological) that have been presented here on NF.

                      And, of course, the two doctors you quote, Furhman and McDougall, are fully on board with the negative impact of animal products on health.

                    2. Was that your idea of data?  I think I missed it.  

                      “The “China Study” findings on animal products have been corroborated by many other types of studies (not epidemiological) that have been presented here on NF.”

                      Excellent!  Please share just ONE randomized controlled trial comparing a whole food (not isolated elements) PB diet to a whole food Omni diet that shows that the omnis were less healthy.

                      We can pull individual elements out of plant foods and prove they’re toxic– refined starches, sugars, goitrogenic compounds, tannins, selenium, etc… and yet point that out to a PB advocate and they’ll scream about how that isn’t “whole food”, that it’s reductionist… and yet those same PB advocates rely on data from isolated compounds in animal foods.

                      I would appreciate a balanced argument.

                    3. Aaahh, the reductionist argument. Reduce it to individual components that have no bearing on the effect of the whole.

                      By the way, T. Colin Campbell does a much better job of refuting the criticisms than I could ever hope to do and I offer the link here for the others who read these comments:


                      I realize that you are a ‘Paleo’ troll just trying to find someone to debate you. Well, it is not going to be me. This will be my last post on the subject, regardless of how you respond.

                    4. I think you missed the point, and that was that you should SKIP reductionist arguments, not make them. ~groanz~ Maybe your thinking is a little cloudy. You did what most PB advocates do when asked to produce a whole food argument, you bowed out. That is wise.
                      I was invited to this blog by Dr. Greger’s paleo post. Now I’m here to stay. =)

                    5. Ernest, your efforts are going to be completely ignored. Paleo huntress is the town troll of She is only here to disrupt, and anything you say will simply be ignored. Although she will deny it, she has gone so far as to make multiple user accounts to back herself up as confirmed by email and IP address. There is really no point in debating this unpleasant individual to put it kindly unless you want a headache.

                    6. She is not her, we have confirmation of her true name. She is a clear copy cat though with the same caustic style.

                    7. As I have mentioned before, Disqus has my consent to share any other user names with anyone who asks. If anyone finds themselves as paranoid as Toxins and absolutely MUST KNOW, just send a message to Disqus and they will tell you how many accounts I have.
                      (Exactly… one.)

                      Toxins has broken NF’s privacy policy and posted the IP address and email of one of its members. The only person with anything to be ashamed of is him.
                      But then this just really detracts from the main point and that is that whenever challenged with the task of producing whole food data that demonstrates that animal food is unhealthy, the PB camp claims it is beneath them to support their argument.
                      The fact is, they can’t support their argument… so what else can they do but bluster about supposed trolls.

                    8. Even conceding every anti-China Study argument, the China Study shows at minimum that a plant-based diet can be very healthy.

              2. He =also outright states (I have at least two separate sources, one a video of the man saying it) that animal fat has no correlation whatsoever with disease in his research, even though plant fat does.

                1. The words of colin campbell are not holy. You seem to always refer to his statements as if everything he says is gold. Typical of your style though, not so surprising.

                  1. Oh come on now, Toxins… you’ve made it abundantly clear that Greger is YOUR god… and Campbell is Greger’s god. He taught Campbell’s nutrition course at Cornell University. Dr. Greger himself believes Campbell’s work is ‘holy’. It’s a bit like worshipping at the alter of Peter while claiming that Jesus Christ doesn’t know what he’s talking about.  >.<

                    1. And here I thought we’d already read, “This will be my last post on the subject, regardless of how you respond”… I guess that’s not really surprising.
                      These are not studies or trials. Please post a citation to an ACTUAL scientific study. Don’t you have any any? I hear the evidence is overwhelming.
                      Skip the staw men. Ms. Minger is your red herring. The only thing I quoted from her is the PB advocate’s position on wheat, and unless you’re providing evidence that Furhman and McDougall don’t actually say this about wheat, I don’t care about Minger’s claims.
                      Just one single citation that compares a whole food omni diet to a whole food PB diet.
                      Just one.

                      Unless THAT was your ACTUAL last post on the subject?

                    2. The cholesterol skeptics will also attempt to downplay the scientific consensus often by insisting that scientists are ignoring certain studies, studies which these denialists fail to mention are compromised by a number of very serious flaws and omissions.5 6 7 Diethelm et al. also explains the motivations behind denialism:

                      Denialists are driven by a range of motivations. For some it is greed, lured by the corporate largesse of the oil and tobacco industries. For others it is ideology or faith, causing them to reject anything incompatible with their fundamental beliefs. Finally there is eccentricity and idiosyncrasy, sometimes encouraged by the celebrity status conferred on the maverick by the media.Perhaps the cholesterol skeptics persistent denialism can be explained by conflicts of interest associated with the sales of merchandise or the desire for celebrity status on the internet. Brownell et al. reminds us how serious and real conflicts of interest are, describing the tactics used by the tobacco industry, who for decades attempted to dismiss the ‘junk’ science linking smoking to lung cancer and other associated diseases, whose personal gain from this caused millions of people to perish. They asserted:8
                      A striking event occurred in 1994 when the CEOs of every major tobacco company in America stood before Congress and, under oath, denied believing that smoking caused lung cancer and that nicotine was addictive, despite countless studies (some by their own scientists) showing the opposite.
                      This merits exploration as to whether the cholesterol skeptics motivations are any different than these other denialists, and whether many of the hundreds of peer-reviewed papers they also dismiss as ‘junk’ science are actually informative and contain potentially life-saving findings.

                    3. You wrote, “individual components have no bearing on the effect of the whole.”

                      Unless you’re advocating a PB diet… then reductionist arguments about isolated components like cholesterol are par for the course.

                      Just. One. Whole. Food. Study.



                    4. One study? I could put here dozens. Even the most cursory search in this site will find you many of them.

                      Just randomly:


                      A, Sun Q, Bernstein AM, Schulze MB, Manson JE, Stampfer MJ, Willett WC,
                      Hu FB. Red Meat Consumption and Mortality: Results From 2 Prospective
                      Cohort Studies. Arch Intern Med. 2012;0(2012):201122871-9.

                      The National Institutes of Health AARP

                      Sinha, A. J. Cross, B. I. Graubard, M. F. Leitzmann, and A. Schatzkin.
                      Meat intake and mortality: a prospective study of over half a million
                      people. Arch Intern Med. 2009 March 23; 169(6): 562–571.


                      Dr. Greger present many of them in this post:


                      Really, is like someone asking to proof that the earth is a sphere — because they still don’t want to believe it, or just like to annoy.

                      Or has monetary reason to keep people confused for as long as possible.

                      I am really not posting to you, because you are clearly trolling the people here, but for the benefit of any casual readers on this site. I hope they do search the huge amount of data available here.

                    5. I believe there is some confusion over what constitutes ‘whole food’. Perhaps you’d like to try again?

                    6. MEAT is whole.

                      Notice I didn’t put any of the myriad studies about saturated fat, cholesterol, animal protein etc. Not meat components. MEAT as a WHOLE.

                      So try reading.

                    7. ~smacks forehead~  A WHOLE FOOD DIET. Would you like to try yet one MORE time? So try READING.
                      Share data from a study that compares a whole food plant based diet (you know, the diet that includes WHOLE plant foods rather than Pringles and Twinkies) with a whole food omni diet, (you know the diet that includes WHOLE omni foods rather than Pringles, Twinkies and Big Macs.)
                      This is a simple concept… for most.

        3. Well, 2% of 2000 kCal per day is only 40 kCal. I haven’t done the math but I imagine that’s about what’s in a tablespoon of dairy cream. Apologies if I’m wrong (probably I am off a fair bit) but my point is that this is such a trivial amount of calories, why not exclude it entirely — less trans fats, saturated fat, cholesterol and probably other toxins that way. And those can build up over a lifetime just as a bathtub gradually fills up even with a single drop of water added each hour. Over large populations, a 2% difference in animal intake would probably drive at least a few vascular events.

          1. I did not present the question to make an excuse or reason for myself to eat a little bit of meat or dairy. I like my vegan diet and hope to keep it that way, I just like to know what the science shows, objectively speaking, in regards to today’s (and other videos).

        4. From memory, I believe T. Colin Campbell (“The China Study”) presented a slide where he said the safe limit of animal products was 10% of calories consumed.

          1. M85: re:”Hi i wrote my email by mistake in the comment above could you get rid of it. Thanks”

            I was able to delete the comment, but then was not able to reply to your request to do so. So, I am replying one level up to Chris just to let you/M85 know that I tried to get rid of your e-mail off the site.

            I hope that works.

        5. The thing that got me eating healthier was reading, The Pritikin Diet, back in the ’70s. I don’t know if they still allow it on the plan, and if I remember correctly, they felt the body could safely process 3 ounces of lean animal meat or dairy a day. For me, I was only too happy to give it all up. Sometimes I miss the taste of cheese, and on occasion (like a BBQ cookout) I might miss something, but not enough to actually eat the stuff. And again, that’s just me. I don’t judge people who want to not-have their steak and eat it too. ;-)

    2. In regard to your question about B12, it is my guess that it has not been depleted from the soil in that country as it has in most industrialized countries due to modern farming practice.

  4. There is an article in the magazine Nutrition Action featuring Christopher Gardner who is the director of nutrition studies at the Stanford Prevention Research Center and is an associate professor of medicine at Standford University. The article is a question and answer session with Mr Gardner. He mentions the studies they have done regarding obesity, etc., low carb, Ornish etc. They seem to be looking to genotyping for this. I’ve read Whole by T. Colin Campbell who addresses this issue. The article also looks to insulin resistance as part of the problem and if you meet the criteria that they lay our for insulin resistance then they maintain that you should be on a lower carbohydrate diet (not Atkins). I am eating plant based, but unfortunately I notice that when I do I gain weight; if I cut out more of the carbohydrates I lose weight and I do fall under the insulin resistance criteria, am 63 years old and also have borderline hypothyroidism, but not on a med for this. Mr. Gardner (Stanford University) is still recommending animal proteins in this article; amazing after watching all your videos and lectures by McDougall et al including lectures by the Vegetarian Society of Hawaii featuring Dr. Milton Mills also from Stanford etc. Do these “colleagues” converse with each other? They even mention Washington University in St. Louis in the article – uh Dr. Luigi Fontana IGF-1. Animal protein promoting liver and kidney inflammation? My dilemma is that I ascribe to plant based eating yet I find myself gaining weight with eating carbs. If I cut out or limit myself to a cup of carbs per day (Fuhrman) I’m hungry and there is no animal protein to contribute to the satiety. Solution?

    1. Carbohydrates are perfectly healthy as long as they come from unprocessed, whole plant sources. White flour, added sugars and the like are not good sources of carbohydrates. Complex starches are far more satiating. Do you consume any added oils?

    2. Stick with lower-carb plant foods, which is what I do.

      Every morning for breakfast I make a smoothie from limited amounts of nuts and seeds, wheat bran, wheat germ, cocoa, limited amount of blueberries for sweetness, black kabuli chickpeas (these are especially low carb), hemp protein powder, flaxseed, and two brazil nuts. On the side I eat some raw cruciferous vegetables and a carrot.

      Then for lunch a dish I make that contains green soybeans and a limited quantity of whole wheat orzo, cherry tomatoes, chopped walnuts, lemon, basil, dill and other herbs. On the side, steamed veggies with a sauce someone on this site recommended that I make from scratch (it’s very low carb).

      For dinner, a salad with beans (either Eden organic soybeans or black chickpeas), various salad vegetables and a home-made salad dressing. It’s very filling.

      Like you I had insulin resistance but this diet has caused tremendous weight loss and weight maintenance. You shouldn’t be hungry if you are eating enough legumes in your diet, non-starchy vegetables (especially raw, stomach-distending), and some nuts and seeds.

      Happy to post more specific recipes if you tell me what you want.

      1. No reason to be afraid of whole grains, don’t be dragged away by the “atkins by any other name” propaganda.

        An analysis of a bunch of randomized drug trials suggests that taking a
        blood pressure lowering medication for high blood pressure may reduce
        the risk of getting a heart attack by 15% and the risk of getting a
        stroke by about 25%. What a coincidence, a recent study found that we
        may achieve similar benefits eating just 3 portions of whole grains a

    3. As Toxins says, make sure your carbs are whole plant food. I eat a LOT of grains and beans. Oatmeal, whole wheat, brown rice, quinoa, etc. And I would like to put on a couple pounds, but I just can’t seem to do it. Of course individual variability is wide.

      1. That’s interesting. I’m the exact opposite. The high carb, SAD was very bad for me, weight-wise. I’ve lost 47 lbs now, down to a nadir of 123 lbs. I’ve gradually added back the carbs but I’m still on a carb-restricted diet plan. Some people are extremely tolerant to high carbohydrate diets and some people are extremely intolerant to them. And as you said, the TYPE of carbs matters a great deal – processed vs unprocessed.

    4. In my opinion low carb doesn’t work long term, you’re probably going to feel weak and hungry. Check out John McDougall and his book the “Starch Solution”, i highly recommend it.

      1. Yeah and high carb medium/high fat diet fails as much even vegan, actually high fat low carb works better but medium/high carb, low fat is the best~

        Thats probably why Chiappe and DH medium/high carb diet didnt or doesnt work because they probably were also eating medium to high fat diet.

    5. If you avoid animal foods for health reasons, what would it hurt to put them back in your diet for 30 days and see what happens? I became diabetic on a WFPB diet and I reversed the diabetes and am no longer insulin resistant on a paleo diet (which contrary to popular belief is NOT a “meat” diet and is mostly veggies.) =) What if for just four weeks you cut out grains and legumes and added some pastured/wild animal foods? it could be eggs or fish if that’s easier.

      Why not give it a shot and see what happens to your lipids and inflammation? It’s not risky and you could find it makes all the difference. If you see no improvement, you haven’t lost anything.

  5. It’s much better to compare the incidence of diseases in a well-nourished but healthy nation (Japan) versus a well-nourished and unhealthy nation (United States). Researchers can also show that the Japanese in Japan have much lower incidences of diseases than the Japanese in the United States. Researchers can also show that the incidences of diseases is rapidly increasing in Japan because they are beginning to eat more and more American foods (KFC, McDonald’s, etc).

    The trouble with comparing the incidences of diseases in India and Africa against the United States is that the average life expectancy is between 40 and 50 in many poor nations. The risk of developing most Western diseases increases dramatically with age. As for cardiovascular diseases, people who can’t afford to eat any meat and die before age 60 of something else will, of course, not die of clogged arteries. That’s no big surprise.

    1. In her book, “The Omega Diet, The Lifesaving Nutritional Program Based on the Diet of the Island of Crete,” presidential nutrition advisor Artemis P. Simopoulos describes a scientific study that examined the overall health of two different villages in Africa. Researchers had strongly expected that the vegan village in Africa would turn out be at least a little bit healthier than the fish-eating village in Africa that never ate any plants. These researchers were absolutely shocked when just the opposite turned out to be the case. The fish-eating village was substantially healthier than the vegan village:

    2. Aaaah, but you missed the part where the data is derived from autospy results and is age adjusted when comparing to Western populations.

    1. Yes, here we go again with people trying to SILENCE Dr. Greger…youtube pulled his video “More than an apple a day” a few months ago after reaching 100,000 views (or “likes” can’t remember which). But now is has escalated to terminating his entire channel…quite outrageous!

      1. well… at that time i didn’t know about the existence of so i’m going to think that Dr Greger’s work is making someone angry… this is a “good” thing indeed because it means that Dr Greger totally nailed nowadays problems about nutrition and really find out who is the culprit of this bad situation… meat, egg, diary e junk food industry are afraid… video after video, one day they will pay for all the sins they had committed…

  6. Oh no! :-(

    Clicking play shows the message, “This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated.”
    Going straight to the NutritionFactsOrg channel on says at the top: “This account has been terminated due to repeated or severe violations of our Community Guidelines and/or claims of copyright infringement.”

    Dr. Greger, I hope this was a simple mistake and/or miscommunication with YouTube and can be rectified quickly. If not, let us know how we, the community, may help.

  7. DOC!!! Your youtube channel has been terminated!!!!! Please check it out…SINISTER forces are up to no good since you are getting the word out…holy heck!

  8. Hi Doc, I really enjoyed watching your video’s, but it looks like either You Tube or Google didn’t like what you are saying. Or could it be that that company, we don’t talk about, (Mon), has put way too much pressure on them because you stepped on someone’s toes. Either way, I for one hope you find another way to post all your great vid’s!

  9. I wonder why the medical profession and/or individual doctors have not been sued for medical malpractice for not revealing information about vegan diets that could have prevented (and in some cases reversed) herat disease and other killer diseases.

    Perhaps some enterprising lawyers might look into this.

    1. We MDs who do not at least mention the vegan diet as an option should be brought to task. Most MDs pay at least lip service to “more fruits & veggies”, “whole grains”, etc., but then they add “low fat dairy”, “fish”, and “lean meats” to their prescriptive preaching. I do not think lawsuits are the way to go; rather, better education of physicians.

      1. Sure, I am all for educating physicians, but why hasn’t this happened and why is it not happening? Perhaps onedoctor being sued would be a wake-up call.

        1. Doctors get sued for anything and everything in the United States, and it is unlikely that such a lawsuit would pass the bar of not being judged vexatious and frivolous. One issue is standard of care. Cry as much as we’d like about it, the consensus treatment guidelines uniformly do not recommend a vegan diet for any patient or any health condition. That is going to be a very difficult bar to pass, evidence-wise. Sure you can get expert witnesses like Dr G and others to testify in such a case, but they, unfortunately, do not make the guidelines that all physicians and litigants rely upon. Until those guidelines change, the standard of care will never change. What would make those guidelines change is a large, convincing randomized trial…..

          1. What makes Dr. Greger an expert in your eyes? Why is he more expert than an actual researcher doing the trials? He reads the publications, and so can you. He isn’t doing the research. You can be as much an expert as he is, just read the data for yourself.

          2. The dilemma is “community” standard of care vs the best scientific evidence. The science at this points to the fact that we reduce our risk of disease and disability the most by eating a whole food plant based diet with adequate Vitamin B12 intake and being fit (e.g. aerobic, strength, flexibility, balance and stability). Expert consensus guidelines have been shown to not be a good way of getting knowledge professionals to learn about and follow best practices. The better approach is apply quality improvement techniques at the level of the clinical team. Unfortunately physicians aren’t generally trained appropriately and don’t practice in environments that reward the achievement of health in their patients… at least this docs perspective for what it is worth.

            1. I was diagnosed with bladder cancer 3 years ago at age 52 after living an active life with lots of physical activity (I’d run marathons and climbed lots of mountains). I was not overweight and had never smoked. My doctor recommended removing the tumor, which he did, and then he recommended coming back every three months to monitor my bladder and remove any further tumors that came back.

              I asked him what I could do to reduce the chances that a tumor would come back and he had no other suggestions. I had a few of these tumor removal surgeries before getting a new doctor.

              I asked the new doctor what he would do if he got bladder cancer and he said he would eat mainly vegetables and fruit, and make he said for me to make sure they’re organic as he had a concern that I might have a sensitivity to pesticides and herbicides in regular produce.

              I have not gone to a completely vegan diet yet, but I started eating way more fruits and vegetables, very little meat and sugar and no processed foods. I am now a year cancer free. I know that my cancer may yet return and that I am not cured, but it sure feels like I am on the right path.

              Although grateful for the initial diagnosis from my first doctor, I am left with the feeling that he had no interest in curing my disease; that I would not be a continuing revenue source for him if I got better. This saddens me greatly on a number of levels even as I celebrate my health.

              The community standard of care is basically to do nothing to help people help themselves to get better. It doesn’t seem to me that is enough.

            2. Hello Don! First of all, thank you for your amazing support here in the forum. Now, my question: Do you know about trustfull references that discuss about the reduced efficacy of angioplasties, stents, bypass surgery and statin drugs on reducing the incidence of myocardial infarctions and death? Thank you in advance

              1. Hi Coimbra,
                A good resource is Dr. Esselstyn’s book on Preventing and Reversing Heart Disease. Last July he published the results of almost 200 patients in the Journal of Family Practice… titled “A way to reverse CAD?. Unfortunately the medical industry doesn’t do a very good job of tracking results and identifying problems with medical interventions or medications over time. And an even worse job about publishing the results. A reliable science based resource on the issues involved can be found on the Number Needed to Treat website… Of course just staying tuned to will keep you appraised of the latest science with a bit of humor thrown in as well.

                1. :) Thank you Don! It’s a pleasure talk to you directly! Of course I will stay tune, this is an amazing resource of trustful information!

        2. Another bar to pass would actually be proving that a vegan diet would have saved a patient’s life. It is much easier to say that giving antibiotics in a timely fashion would have saved a meningitis patient’s life, as there is an extremely large probability of foreseeable treatment success in that case. Who is to know whether a specific person with coronary disease or not would have had their life saved as a consequence of a vegan diet being advised to them. The information on vegan diets is widely available, and extends beyond physicians. Few people have not heard of veganism. The probability of a vegan diet succeeding in a given case is far better than chance, but there are no absolutes.

            1. As a doctor, I can preach to my colleagues and give Grand Rounds presentations on vegan diets. As a patient, you can bring in ample literature and references (preferably full text and not just print out from internet websites) for your own doctor(s). As Eleanor Roosevelt said, change happens one person and one mind at a time – it’s the way it always has. We will eventually reach a tipping point where this comes into the mainstream but it is going to take a lot of time and effort. None of my friends or family are vegetarian, how can I expect my doctor to be? They are people too. And there are huge competing health messages from paleo, Atkins and low carb/high fat, which seems to be resurgent. Not to mention, the Mediterranean Diet reigns supreme in the medical nutrition world, and it advocates fish, poultry and dairy products. Vegetarianism is really seen outside the mainstream. Many of my patients have been extremely resistant to it, despite my exhortations to consider it.

              I don’t have a one shot answer or magic bullet to how to get doctors to stress the health benefits of vegan diets more. What’s obvious to the two of us is just not obvious to the general public or physicians. I do know there are groups that train doctors to prescribe vegan diets (like the Physician Committee for Responsible Medicine – Dr Neal Barnard’s group), but they are not well known outside the vegan community.

              Yes a lawsuit could raise a big splash, but I don’t recall any diffusion of medical innovation that ever resulted from a lawsuit. The successful lawsuits in medicine – e.g. against Vioxx or Baycol – were almost always against drugs that were unsafe that industry tried to cover up. In these lawsuits, it was not generally physicians who were being sued. If someone were to counsel a patient to go on Atkins and they had a heart attack as a result, a lawsuit would be in the offing. If someone neglected to counsel a patient to go on a vegan diet and they had a heart attack as a result, it is unlikely a lawsuit would be in the offing, as the patient would never know about the diet, and this is an error of omission rather than an error of commission (and therefore fundamentally more obvious and striking).

              Good luck and be well. Saw your comments on the jpost website and loved them.

        3. The reason doctors aren’t being sued is because you’d need evidence that PB diets were healthier. Ahem. Plus, doctors average about 25 hours of nutrition education in med school. They’re not nutrition experts.

    2. Yes, VofR, we too have wondered if there might not be a good basis for many class action suits. Many people sue docs and hospitals when their family members die Some with not good cause, some with good cause. I would think that a few big class action cases would establish a required norm that Docs and their institutions have the obligation to prescribe the best known cures or treatments even if the patients refuse them. I thought that was in the law, but perhaps not. Now that there is so much good research on the benefits of WFPB diets, is there now a new and proven best practices norm in diet? What threshold does one have to surpass to say the medical community does or must accept the research as conclusive?
      Now that Kaiser has decided to teach WFBP, I wonder if that would help?

  10. This is one of my favorites.

    But I am very concerned about the cancellation of the youtube account.

    If it isn’t reinstated, we should all consider mobilizing. The best way to do this in my opinion is to reach out to others, McDougall, PCRM, PETA, Vegucated, etc. and ask that they put up a notice about the situation… and that their subscribers/members write Google and protest the decision.

    This could begin happening to others. It is hard to imagine that the account would be pulled without a some sort of review of the material being presented.

    Thus, if would have been known NOT to be in violation of any community standards.That in itself suggests a high level attack by industry and with the possible support of some branch(es) of government.

    Many of us are familiar with the slander of T. Colin Campbell, the cancelling of appearances by John Robbins… and in my own case, many such attacks.

    I hope none of my concerns prove true but I am momentarily feeling VERY concerned for this movement and those most important to it such as Dr. Greger.

  11. Yay, so glad to see THIS one back up…I truly believe this was the last straw for whomever sabotaged your youtube channel…IT IS A DOOZY of a video, Doc!

    1. I’d wait a tad before doing this. I think that some degree of a “shoot first, ask questions later” policy is appropriate for Google from an economic point of view provided that they actually deliver with a review that keeps the video-sharing site as a reasonably open forum for information and debate. When you see enough flags, you ‘cancel’ the account automatically in case the content is really flagrantly objectionable from a multitude of different idealogical viewpoints, but you keep the account itself on hold in your memory banks pending further review in the case that the deleted user cares enough to appeal. Adjudication takes time and money, and there are a lot of dogmatic people sniping in this way at sites that make them feel uncomfortable, but also a lot of videos posted that do deserve to be taken down, so adjudication is necessary in this sort of situation in order to be probably correct.

      It’s enough of a victory to be sabotaged by crackpots, really. This fact can only increase this community’s reputation. Jumping to attack the media corporation wouldn’t necessarily have that kind of effect, in this case, and could easily make NFers seem a tad touchy and vindictive themselves.

      If they don’t reinstate, though, then yeah, complain, and if you can find better-moderated video sharing, stop using YouTube as much as possible, and let your friends know the reason why you think that the site is establishing a dysfunctional community.

      1. “but also a lot of vide os poste d that do deserve to be taken down, so
        adjudication is necessary in this sort of situation in order to be probably

        You are not suggesting that videos on NF deserve to be taken down, are you? That is ludicrous.

        I, for one, don’t find your argument compelling. If there is no response to Google’s actions from the users of this site, then why should they feel compelled to review anything.

        1. Gregor already submitted an appeal. Youtube structures the process to enable appeals, and probably has a bureaucratic procedure in place for processing them. They have planned for this sort of contingency, in other words. No, I’m not in any way suggesting that NF’s account has any videos at all that are flagrantly objectionable, merely that some of the videos that people post to YouTube are, to the point where it would be justified to take down the account ASAP.

  12. I think you need to build more than one video source. And Let people choose. Some people might prefer to watch them on a viveo player or a YouTube Player. Plus this way you get more social awareness. Just having two players available is a good idea. It’s really easy to develop as well. I could do it. It’s a couple of divs, and display hidden happens on the links. It’s really easy honest. And you would just share both videos. If they have a behind the scenes link where you past the video all they would need to do is erm… change it so you posted both videos at the same time. It really isn’t that complicated. :-)

  13. Uh oh someone feels threatened. The Youtube account will likely be reinstated.

    Don’t worry folks, we’ll keep on going, Youtube account or not.

  14. Before the facepalm conspiracy theories begin, does anyone have any information on how easy/difficult it is to get Youtube to terminate an account? I’ve read of accounts that had a lot less viewers which were terminated under equally mysterious circumstances. My guess is that getting someone’s account terminated can be done fairly easily (unfortunately). I have no idea how to get an account reinstated, although I have heard of it happening ( I think theAmazingAtheist had his account terminated and reinstated some time back).
    Also, why does Youtube terminate an account? Why not just disable all of the account’s videos and put a notice of dispute on the account page? That would be the non-evil way of doing it. But, Youtube is part of Google and Google is evil. So there you go.

    1. Perhaps because it’s more than the videos themselves that can be deletion-worthy for a user. Censoring the entire body of content makes sense from this point of view; if a part of it is sufficiently bad can impugn the entire source, not just the collection of videos. I agree, though, I’d like it much better if they were transparent about whether the account is deleted for good with no turning back, processing an appeal, waiting for an appeal with time limit of K days, or what.

  15. While we are waiting for this wonderful site to be up and running again might I recommend watching Food Inc. I am not saying the powers that be had anything to do with the sabotage but…

    If you haven’t watched it, it is a must see. You will never look at meat the same way.

  16. Was that your closing statement for this clip? or is it a continuation of the quote from Denis Burkitt MD? “….all the industries enticing people to the edge and profiting from pushing people off” Whoever it belongs to – it is an insightful statement.

  17. Dr. Greger,

    I’m interested to know what your stance on vaccines is. Particularly childhood vaccines. I know your videos are primarily nutrition based but as you are a big proponent of preventive medicine and you obviously look at all the research, I’d like to know if you see any evidence for or against vaccines and how you would choose to vaccinate your children?

    There is so much (mis)information on the internet regarding this topic, I’d love an evidence based approach to whichever side you choose.

    Thanks for your time


  18. Thanks for another informative video.
    MY guess is that the fences you are talking about are NOT stents.
    Sure hope this presentation
    wasn’t the cause for the recent video infarction

  19. Americans eat less animal food and saturated fat now than we did in 1950 when there was no “Heart Disease Epidemic”. If it was animal foods causing the ‘epidemic’, how could that possible be the case?

    1. It is a myth put about by paleo types that animal product consumption has dropped. WHO figures for industrialized countries are for annual per capita meat consumption: 61.5Kg in 1965 and 88kg in 1998 and that is projected to be over 100kg by 2030. For milk it was 185KG in 1965 and 212kg in 1995, also projected to rise in the future.

      1. By “paleo types”? There are paleo vegetarians and paleo vegans too, are they also perpetrating this myth? Paleo is closer to veganism than to the SAD. You may wish to learn the difference between meat and animal food too. ;-)
        According to the USDA Profiling Food Consumption in America Report,

        In 1950, people averaged:

        138.2 lb of total meat
        41 lbs (374) eggs
        703 lbs of dairy
        10.5 lbs lard and tallow
        9 lbs butter

      2. Here’s the other side of that equation-

        Fruit consumption is UP 30 lbs per person, per year.

        Fresh veggie consumption is up 53 lbs per person, per year

        Grain consumption is up 45 lbs per person, per year (within that, corn consumption has doubled and rice consumption has quadrupled)
        Wheat consumption is up 21 lbs per person, per year

        Liquid veggie oil consumption is up 26 lbs per person, per year

        Veggie shortening consumption was up 13 lbs per person, per year

        Sugar consumption is up 43 lbs per person, per year

        So let’s look at that again, the total intake of animal foods is down 75 lbs per person, per year, and the total intake of vegetable foods (mostly processed) has risen exponentially… and yet, heart disease is all about the animal food?

        Or maybe, it’s all about the processed food, which any thinking person not caught up in the vegan religion would be able to see.

      3. Here’s the other side of that equation-

        Fruit consumption is UP 30 lbs per person, per year.

        Fresh veggie consumption is up 53lbs per person, per year

        Grain consumption is up 45 lbs per person, per year (within that, corn consumption has doubled and rice consumption has quadrupled)
        Wheat consumption is up 21 lbs per person, per year

        Liquid veggie oil consumption is up 26 lbs per person, per year

        Veggie shortening consumption was up 13 lbs per person, per year

        Sugar consumption is up 43 lbs per person, per year

        So let’s look at that again, the total intake of animal foods is down 75 lbs per person, per year, and the total intake of vegetable foods (mostly processed) has risen exponentially… and yet, heart disease is all about the animal food?

        Or maybe, it’s all about the processed food, which any thinking person not caught up in the vegan religion would be able to see.

  20. (Assuming no environmental risks), those on a whole-food, plant-based diet since birth are immune to most diseases; if their parents did the same, even better, & so on, back through the generations, whew! What about those who begin at, let’s say, age 60?, when staving-off mortality’s a more common interest. If a non-symptomatic sexagenarian, on no medications, goes all out WFPBDiet, how close can he expect to reach “safe”, & how soon?

  21. Dr. Greger,
    What do Vegans in the USA die of?
    If most of the USA’s top 10 killers are mitigated by a vegan diet, what are vegans dying of in the end? Don’t say “old age” or “natural causes”. What is the physiological final straw? Suicide – because they haven’t been able to enjoy baked brie in 50 years? (just kidding… sort of….)

    1. They die from the exact same causes.


      Epic-Oxford: Preliminary Results (2003)
      In 2003, preliminary results from EPIC-Oxford (Oxford component of the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition) comparing death rates of 46,562 subjects were reported. About 33% of the subjects were vegetarian (including many vegans). The results showed no statistically significant differences between the vegetarians and non-vegetarians in any of the mortality categories which included cancer, circulatory disease, ischemic heart disease, cerebrovascular disease (stroke), all other causes, and all causes combined.

              1. Oh my misunderstanding, I thought you wanted Dr. Greger’s opinion on the subject. Being a holistic nurse I have done and continue to do my own research as well as review Dr. Greger’s posting.

                1. I think your understanding was accurate. But I’ve watched all of Dr. Greger’s videos and he’s pretty careful to NOT mention what vegans die of- it’s only those who eat animal food where that matters seemingly. He would need to address ReluctantVegan’s question directly if he’s going to get the answer he’s looking for.  I wish that when people asked for more evidence here that they weren’t simply pointed to yet another Greger video and were instead pointed to the actual data. Greger could make an even bigger fortune selling cherry pie.

                2. Actually, it was I, ReluctantVegan, who wanted Dr. Gregor’s opinion. It was not Paleo Huntress who was asking for it. Because I have an analytical mind, but don’t have the time or background to review thousands of studies and convert them into food on my plate, I am willing to accept the very well-educated opinion of someone dedicated to the field. Dr. Gregor’s opinions based “cherry picked” studies is exactly what I am asking for. I’ll go watch the videos you’ve suggested.

                  1. There are many who are also well educated and dedicated to the field that disagree with Dr. Greger. Would you like the links to their videos as well?

                    1. The intellectually honest answer would be, “yes, please”, but the truth is, I will be overwhelmed if I am presented with too much info – especially if it is contradictory. I’ll let Dr. Greger be my professor for now. Maybe I will learn from others in the future. Thanks so much for the offer!

                    2. I appreciate and admire your honesty. If you change your mind at a future date, you are still welcome to it. I personally am not a proponent of dairy, but during a period of exploration with ancestral food prep and my first knowledge of pastured and alternative animal food resources, I found some local small family farms that hand-milk, don’t use hormones or antibiotics, and actually raise the calves alongside their mothers on organic pasture. We bought the dairy raw, and then soured and cultured it ourselves. As a rule, I don’t eat dairy, but when we decide to indulge, we go with something from one of these farms. The animals are raised well and treated like royalty. They even get hand-hayed hay in Winter.
                      My experience of 2 years of veganism was a net weight gain of 65lbs (after an initial loss of 25 in the first couple of months, but I regained that PLUS 65 more) plus the development of diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol and other disease. I hope your husband has a better experience with his journey. Good luck to you both. =)

                    3. Wow! How frustrating for you! I’m so sorry it backfired. The disease onset you mentioned is very scary!

                      As Thea suggested, I may need more calorie dense foods than my husband might, since he really LIKES eating and started out obese, whereas I (mostly) eat in order to not be hungry, and have always been petite.

                      We got baseline labs before we switched from Lacto-Ova-Pesca Vegetarian to Whole-Food Vegan, and will get follow up labs in about a month. We’ll give it a trial period, making sure that we stick with WHOLE FOOD choices. If either of us starts gaining, or not feeling well, we’ll modify – perhaps employ the help of a dietitian.

                      Good luck, and thanks for your input!

                    4. Thea and RV,

                      What an interesting exchange! Thank you both. I think your correspondence would be useful to many on this site. Is there any way to feature it? And, RV, haw are you doing now, in August ’14? We think our path was easier because by the time we saw Dr.Greger’s ’12 and ’13 summary videos that turned the key for us, we had already via PBS-TV come across Dr. Fuhrman and watched 10 of his videos that taught us how to use a Vita Mix and cook in different ways. Above all, He supplied us with delicious recipes that we loved. Thus, we did not have to jump over the abyss to a bleak steamed vegetable world. We had a bridge and we already knew that the food over there was totally delightful. Since then, we have found so many delish recipes online.
                      Dr. Greger’s daily education and inspiration has been a wonderful reinforcement. As I see my friends undergo awful treatments for Cancer and Diabetes, and CAD, our gratitude to Dr. Greger only grows. I don’t know if my switch at age 64 will save me from a similar fate, but it’s well worth the effort and the contributions to less cruelty and environmental harm is also motivating.
                      Thea, your kindly and useful suggestions are wonderful in practice and in tone. I have admired greatly your posts here and elsewhere.
                      Best to you both,

                    5. Gayle,

                      We’re still Vegan! It’s going much better now – since we know what to cook and have met some other Whole-food vegans. We’ve found 3 all-vegan restaurants, and found vegan items at normal restaurants. We even found a nearby Mexican restaurant owner who makes “off-menu” vegan items just for us. I keep snacks in the car at all times. I don’t miss cheese as much now, but every once in a while, a restaurant will forget the “no cheese” request and I get a mouthful of sinful divinity. I’ve gotten smaller, if it were possible. I was very glad that we were already eating vegan when I recently watched the movie “Earthlings” about animal abuse in the animal food industry. If I were still a meat-eater, I would have immediately gone into denial mode upon seeing the facts – because they were too atrocious to bear – rather than allowing myself to be moved to tears with the knowledge of our callous cruelty towards creatures that can feel pain. (I’m no animal lover – but I’m also not a sadist.) I am relieved to know that as vegans, we are not contributing to that horror. My dear husband has reached the weight goal set for him by his doc, and his cholesterol is 114, down at least 100 points from pre-vegan.

                      Sadly, (unknown if related to veganism), his hemoglobin dropped precipitously (from 16 g/dL pre-vegan to 10 g/dL last week), he got a deep vein thrombosis (blood clot in leg), and a pulmonary emblolism (blood clot) in both lungs. These are life threatening conditions – and shocking since he has ZERO risk factors, is healthy, exercises, and eats right. Preliminary diagnosis is NOT B12 or folate deficiency – everyone’s first assumption since we’re vegans – those numbers were good. The diagnosis is Warm Autoimmune Hemolytic Anema – when your body attacks your own red blood cells. It is rare – 1:100,000.

                      If anyone knows of any study linking veganism to WAIHA, please post.

                    6. ReluctantVegan: Thank you so much for taking the time to give us an update! I was elated reading the first part of your reply. And I really appreciated you talking about Earthlings and your response. I think that information could be really helpful for people even though this is primarily a health-related site.

                      The last part of your post was a real shock and made me so sad. I am so, so sorry to hear about the problems your husband is facing. I’m not a doctor and do not have any advice that can help. All I can do is think good thoughts for you both and hope that this can be safely resolved. If I see anything related that might help, I’ll come back here and post it.

                      My heart is with you.

                  2. Sorry RV, I see that now I had replied in the wrong place I will be more careful next time. I know Dr. G. tries to respond to as many posts as he can but it is overwhelming. At least he keeping the commenting option open for the rest of us to help each other as well. If I may ask, why are you reluctant?

                    1. As soon as I stumbled on Dr. Greger’s website and watched the 2 annual compilation videos, I realized (with sadness) that if we wanted our diet to protect our health maximally, we would have to switch from Permissive Lacto-Ovo-Pesca Whole-Plant Vegetarians (permissive means we reverted to SAD-in-moderation when guests in others’ homes), to full-on Strict Whole-Plant Vegan (not low-fat). I am SO appreciative of Dr. Greger and his team for educating me. We took a while to transition, and were completely converted over by Jan 7th, 2014.

                      Two weeks into it, I am still “reluctant” because I really LOVE cheese and kefir (cultured milk). I feel hungry too frequently, and have to sit down to eat so much more often now, and the wasted time annoys me. At any one sitting, I eat ’till I’m full, but have to keep filling up over and over throughout the day! I’d rather grab an ounce or two of cheese and be done with it till the next regularly scheduled meal.

                      I would have named myself “Very Reluctant” if I had known the Whole-Plant Vegan diet totally trashes your social eating experiences (unless you are the cook), and you better keep a fridge in your car, because there is no place to get “quickie” whole-food Vegan unless all you want is an iceberg lettuce salad. I know I sound like I’m whining, because I AM.

                      It wasn’t so bad when we were permissive, and I could eat cheese. Because I have always been low-normal BMI, I get no gratification from anticipated weight loss, though my obese husband does. It is difficult for me to persevere when the prize is an indistinct and very distant “increased lifespan”, but I am still trying. I will give it a couple of months to become habit. If I still hate it, I am switching back, and the cheese can HAVE those last 10 yrs of my life!

                    2. ReluctantVegan:

                      I greatly admire people who do hard things for good reasons. For whatever it is worth, you have my admiration.

                      I have some thoughts for you. I’m just trying to help. You may have thought of all these things already or think little of them. But just in case you would find these ideas helpful, I wanted to share.

                      1) Go beyond health
                      You are not the only one (I share it and I know many others who do too!!!) who can find it hard to make a positive food choice today just to lower the health risks of tomorrow. One thing that helps many people stay on the path of health is to do some research on the other reasons (beyond your personal health) why choosing a plant-based diet is a good idea. Here are two examples:

                      a) Cows are sentient, gentle giants. But the dairy industry is arguably one of the most cruel food industries out there. (For just one example: Eating diary is akin to eating veal. After all, what do you think is done with all those calves who were supposed to get the milk?) Once you learn about cows and see pictures of what is done to them, it becomes a lot harder to eat that delicious cheese. For practical purposes, there is no such thing as ethical dairy. Maybe some people can suggest some movies for you to check out that will help educate you on this topic. A good visual is often helpful.

                      b) Global Climate Change. There is a big connection between the animal industry, including diary, and global climate change. This is an especially good topic to research if you have kids and their future concerns you.

                      2) Cheese, Cheese, Dear Gd, Give Me Some Cheese!
                      Cheese is quite literally addictive. (Check out info on PCRM.) For years, I was a vegetarian. Cheese was the last and hardest animal product I gave up. I’ve been a full vegan for 4 years now. And I still absolutely crave cheese. It’s visceral.

                      Since you are so close in time to eating cheese, the following may not help you, but I recommend checking out the book Artisan Vegan Cheese. While it doesn’t really take the place of cheese, it takes the place of cheese. I don’t know how to explain it, but the food is awesome and hits the spot in ways that cheese hits the spot. And since you don’t have to worry about calories (unlike me darn it!), this idea may be just the thing for you. It may even help with your hunger issues. I made a cheese platter for a party based on the recipes from Artisan Vegan Cheese book, and it was a HUGE hit. Finding even just one recipe from this book that makes you happy could go a long way toward weaning yourself from the dairy disaster.

                      3) Being Hungry/Eating All The Time
                      I had a friend with a similar problem. I encouraged her to add more nuts, seeds, avocados, and dried fruits to her diet. It solved the problem. I’m not a doctor, but maybe this is something you could try. For me: eating more often is a huge plus! But I can see how it wouldn’t appeal to everyone.

                      4) Vegan On The Go/Social Aspects
                      I suspect that this is an issue because you are so new to this. Once you get over the learning curve, I think you will find both of these issues almost disappear. I’ve seen resources out there that have ideas/address both of these issues. Let me know if you want me to try to track some ideas down for you.

                      I hope some of these thoughts are helpful. And I wish you and your husband all the luck in having healthy, long lives with a transition that is not so painful.

                    3. Thank you so much, Thea, for your kind and helpful response. I am especially excited about the Artisan Vegan Cheese book, since I used to make cow’s cheese at home. I’ll look into all you’ve mentioned.

                    4. ReluctantVegan: So cool! Thanks for the feedback.

                      After I sent the post above, I came up with some more ideas to share, but I thought I would wait to see if it would be appreciated or not. :-)

                      > Water Kefir
                      You mentioned a liking for milk kefir. I’ve spoken to people who swear by water kefir as both tasting great and having great probiotic properties. To make water kefir, people buy a set of crystals and instructions, I think. The kefir/water can then be grown indefinitely as long as the crystals are taken care of. I believe that people typically flavor water kefir with small amounts of fruit juices or lemon twists, but I was thinking that you might add some cashew cream if you wanted a creamy drink like you would get with milk. I’ve never actually had water kefir myself, so I’m just passing on an idea.

                      > Meetup/New Social Options
                      There’s no getting around having to deal with existing family (holidays) and friends (potlucks/restaurants), but I thought I would suggest that you might consider using this as an opportunity to get new friends too. If you live in America, you may be able to take advantage of a site called Meetup. Meetups are locally managed groups/clubs where people literally “meet up”. There are many, many meetups around America for vegetarians/vegans. I actually run one in the smallish town I live in, and the membership is constantly growing. We welcome everyone, but the food is always vegan. We get together all the time and do potlucks and cook together and even watch videos (such as watching Dr. Greger’s year end summary videos or Jeff Novicks Fast Food DVDs). I’m a big fan of Meetup and think it is a great way to make new friends who understand the concept of plant based eating. If there is no Meetup in your area, there might be some other similar group you could hook up with.

                      > Food For Cars
                      Some people keep mini-boxes of raisins on hand for snacking. Other people make wonderful, whole-food “energy bars” around for eating on the go. Just some ideas.

                      I don’t know where you live, but I was able to find some local restaurants that make some great vegan meals. For example, there is one place has a cheap rice and beans bowl with a ton of toppings and a unique sauce. The same place also sells chicken and dairy, but at least they make something good that is beyond salad. (And it is fast and cheap.) My point is: It may not yield any results based on where you live, but it is worth looking around some more at your local businesses to see if you can find food that will be filling and yummy and plant based.

                      I think you are at the hardest point in your transition. If memory serves, statistically 2 weeks is just about when people give up on making new habits – JUST before it becomes a true habit. I love that you are looking long term to try to make it work. Once again, good luck!

                    5. Thea, a note about water kefir– it is touted as something of a health-tonic, but the only real benefit to water kefir is the enjoyment of a fizzy drink and a few traces of some vitamins. The flora do not survive the stomach environment so they cannot truly be probiotic for the gut. The real value in probiotic foods lies in how the flora changes the food itself before it is eaten. Proteins are broken down, carbohydrates are consumed and essential fatty acids and vitamins (like C) are formed. In the case of water kefir, you are literally mixing sugar with water to feed the culture, but there is no actual “food” that is changed by the flora. Kefir changes dairy in some very beneficial ways but it doesn’t do anything for water– so if you’re gonna drink it, drink it because you like it and know that it is an added-sugar drink. Also, expect to pay through the nose for it if you don’t make it yourself. lol

                    6. Thea, thank you for sharing all your actionable advice, and for your encouragement. FYI, I put a bowl of nuts, raisins, and dried apricot by my desk today (per your advice), and it completely solved my hunger problem (I mean, munching on it all day). Unfortunately, husband found it!! I had to shoo him away.

                    7. ReluctantVegan: You just made me laugh. I almost had tea coming out my nose! Alas, I have no advice about training husbands.

                      Thanks so much for taking the time to tell me that the nut and fruit trick worked. That helps me to know that the idea is worth continuing to pass on. And I feel so good knowing I helped someone. You just made my day. Thanks!

                    8. Gayle Delaney: Thank you so much for your nice feedback above. I am just a volunteer. Feedback like yours is what helps to keep me going!

                      I’m not sure how to feature certain conversations, but now that NutrtionFacts has a staff (not me, but real people), I’m sure they will keep this idea in mind for the future.

                      I’ve enjoyed reading your posts too. Thank you for being a positive voice in this community.

                    9. Thank you for sharing your story. You certainly can find a supportive community on some other sites as well.

                    10. Hey Mr. reluctant. You can get most benefits by scrapping animal product intake to just a few times a week and go vegan style for all other hours.

                      I’ve settled on 2 meat/fish days a week on which I’ll consume 2 animal proteine meals within 4- 6 hours from each other.

                      Due to my ADHD and milk morfines I can’t drink milk anymore , if I could I’d place that intake within those 4 hours too. I really can’t take it because I get clearly noticeable junky eyes(stoned looking red lines) after taking milk :(.

                      Most toxins of meat will be cleared after 24 hours after intake which still gives to a very sizeable part of the week healing your body. Any defeciencies will be avoided though methyl b12 will till be adviseable.

                      For now I myself seem to flourish on this regime.

                      On cheese , it seems curd cheese can clean your arteries via the vitamin K2 in it. Curd cheese is preferred because its low fat. You can check up on it by googleling a fellow dutch guy Cees Vermeer who has led decades of study in the netherlands on the stuff. Studies embodying up to 15000 people. Calcified arteries of rats got 50% cleared with a 360mgr human equivalent dose of K2 in 6 weeks time. Coronairy death dropping astonishing rates with dose dependance.

                      Since I cannot eat cheese I went the natto way.
                      Nasty slimy soy beans, but I like it when mixed through a smoothy. And 45 grams of the stuff is enough.

                    11. Thank-you for sharing the interview with Cees Vermeer, PhD. For those of us who don’t or can’t use dairy, he gives plenty of information on taking the vitamin K2 supplement especially the MK7, to clear the arteries of calcification. My husband has peripheral artery disease, and this information can change his life.

            1. JacquieRN: I’ve been meaning to thank you for your high quality posts throughout NutritionFacts. You are one of the extremely helpful participants.

              After reading ReluctantVegan’s original post, I had meant to explain answer the question of what vegans die of and at the same time had been lamenting that I hadn’t kept a list of all of Dr. Greger’s videos on the topic. I have no idea why it didn’t occur to me to check out the topics page. So, thanks for this reply.

              In addition to the info you provided, here is one more study of interest on the topic that I got from PCRM:

              “Vegetarian diets can extend life expectancy, according to early findings from the Adventist Health Study-2. Vegetarian men live to an average of 83.3 years, compared with nonvegetarian men who live to an average of 73.8 years. And vegetarian women live to an average of 85.7 years, which is 6.1 years longer than nonvegetarian women. This study is ongoing and includes more than 96,000 participants. The results further indicate vegan diets to be healthful and associated with a lower body weight (on average 30 lbs. lower than that of meat eaters), and lower risk of diabetes, compared with diets that include animal products.

              Fraser G, Haddad E. Hot Topic: Vegetarianism, Mortality and Metabolic Risk: The New Adventist Health Study. Report presented at: Academy of Nutrition and Dietetic (Food and Nutrition Conference) Annual Meeting; October 7, 2012: Philadelphia, PA.”

              Just thought you would be interested.

              1. Thea,

                I’ve been making an effort to not nit-pick the comments that show up in my email notifications, but some of the claims just need more clarification to be understood accurately. The very first interaction you and I had here at Dr. Greger’s site was over T. Colin Campbell’s misrepresented data. I think plant-based advocates mostly have the best of intentions, though plant-exclusive has never been shown to be healthier or to provide more longevity. And it is data like the Adventist study you reference that is twisted and manipulated to appear to be something that it isn’t.
                From <–(a pro-vegetarian website)

                “Seventh Day Adventist researchers just published a study two days ago in the Journal of the American Medical Associaion which, they say, shows that male vegetarians have a 12% lower chance of dying than meat-eaters.
                But it’s not really true.

                You see, the Adventist researchers at Loma Linda used a different method to group people as “vegetarians” than the EPIC study used.

                For starters, the healthiest SDAs were the fish eaters (omnis), not the vegans. And while it’s compelling when you look at the conclusions published by the researchers, the actual data tells a different story. The SDA study lumps pescatarians and occasional meat-eaters, as well as egg and dairy eaters in the “vegetarian group”. The EPIC study I referenced does not. But even when the fish-eaters and occasional meat-eaters alone in the Adventist study were assigned to the “non-vegetarian” group rather than the “vegetarian” group, the benefit of reduced mortality for vegetarians goes away. What’s also interesting to note is that those who identify as vegetarian eat about as much animal food as typical omnis, it just isn’t “flesh foods”.
                The Adventist study data actually shows no difference in mortality rates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians.

  22. Hello Dr. Greger,

    My name is Mili, currently live in Calgary, Alberta Canada, will be moving back to India, Mumbai on April 26. Last year in the month of September, I had visited the doctor due to high stress at work, I stopped going to work and during my first physical check up, my blood pressure was high, above 180. I was asked to take blood pressure medication. I am currently on Coversyl plus, currently my blood pressure is around 130 -145/80-100, my doctor has informed me after a month he might have to increase my blood pressure medication. 3 weeks back I did a Ecocardiogram, left side of my heart walls have become thick (according to the doctor, its a walk-in clinic I go to, he does not have much time to discuss, he alots 10 mins per patient). I also have left hip and lower back ache and my left hand pains and I feel slight pain in my heart sometimes. My doctor also told me that I have low levels of B12. I am 35 years old.

    I have been doing some research online about vegan diet. I don’t eat meat at all, my diet mainly consist of potato, rice and dairy products. I am planning to switch to Himalayan salts and increase my water intake. I also exercise 30 mins everday. I currently cannot afford a juicer so I use my mixer to juice vegs and fruits. My goal is to reverse high blood pressure, before I become vegan I have a few questions –
    1. Do I completely stop medication (I had once forgotten to take medication and did not feel good at all, felt warm and heart was beating faster) or should I become vegan and then slowly try to reduce medication.
    2. I need advice how much supplements or diet recommendations I need to take daily for Calcium, Iodine, Iron, Zinc?
    3. Is eating raw garlic and onion helpful in reducing blood pressure? I have also heard grapefruit is good but not with BP medication?
    4. How much potassium and magnesium I need to take daily, would you suggest supplements or diet intake, please advise on how much and what I should intake daily?

    I am on a strict budget, so cannot afford going to a chiropractioner or a vegan doctor. Thank you for your advice.


  23. I followed the reply link from my email and found this comment deleted. Did you delete it yourself, Ruby?  If it was deleted by a moderator, can I ask what rule it violated because I’m confused about what people are actually allowed to say here.

    Man sacrifices his health in order to make money.
    Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health.” Dalaï Lama
    LOL!! I used to say the same essential same thing to my dad when I was young. He was old and friendless and hd 3 heart operations by the time he retired, with more money than he could spend, and no ability to have fun with it. . . .That was a great quote. Thanks for sharing.

  24. I want information about high blood pressure and veganism please I have been a vegetarian for years and am now vegan but still my pressure is high/. help!!! I will follow your advice gladly. xxooo elayne

  25. Our body is the only real thing we have a decision in changing, let’s get this out to more so they have a fair chance.

  26. That last point was spot on and really courageous. The analogy of people falling off a cliff and getting smashed up, while medicine puts ambulances at the bottom but no fence at the top AND the industries pushing people off so they can profit. Huge. At least Dr. Greger et all are posting lots of signs. Grateful here.

  27. Hey. What about other factors which can prevent heart disease? Where is the evidence, that DIET is the most important. Please, share the facts and studies with me :)

  28. I am first time here so my comment may be way off. But at least I am interested because I have been on a low carb diet for health, not weight loss. You are telling me a low carb diet is not a good diet because of statistics. But I am healthier since I changed to a low carb diet. So what I need to hear is what makes the low carb diet bad? Or do you recommend a vegetarian diet?

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