Vegetarians and Stroke Risk Factors—Saturated Fat?

Vegetarians and Stroke Risk Factors—Saturated Fat?
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How can we explain the drop in stroke risk as the Japanese diet became Westernized by eating more meat and dairy?

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

As Japan westernized, their stroke rate plummeted. Stroke was the leading cause of death in Japan, but the mortality rate sharply decreased as they moved away from their traditional diets and started eating more like those in the west; so, maybe there was a protective effect of all the extra meat and dairy they started to eat. After all, their animal fat and animal protein intake were going up at the same time their stroke rates were going down.

“Protection from stroke by eating animal foods? Surely not!” commented a noted Loma Linda cardiology professor. “Many vegetarians, like myself have almost come to expect the data to indicate that they have an advantage, whatever the disease that’s being considered. Thus, it is disquieting to find evidence in a quite different direction for at least one subtype of stroke.”

Can dietary saturated fat, like that found in meat and dairy, be beneficial in the prevention of stroke risk? There appeared to be a protective association, but only in East Asian populations. High dietary saturated fat was found associated with a lower risk of stroke in Japanese but not in non-Japanese. So, what was it about the traditional Japanese diet where the Westernization of their diets made things better when it came to stroke risk? Well, at the same time their meat and dairy was going up, their salt intake was going down.

The traditional Japanese diet was packed with salt—in fact, they had some of the highest salt intakes in the world, like a dozen spoonfuls of salt a day. Before the widespread availability of refrigeration, they ate all sorts of salted, pickled, fermented foods from soy sauce to salted fish. And in the areas that had twice the salt intake, they had twice the stroke mortality, but when the salt intake dropped do did the stroke death rates, because when the salt came down their blood pressures came down, too. And high blood pressure is perhaps the single most important modifiable risk factor for stroke. So, it’s no big mystery why the westernization of the Japanese diet led to a drop in stroke risk.

When they abandoned their more traditional diets their obesity rates went up, their diabetes and coronary artery disease went up, but as they gave up the insanely high salt intake their insanely high stroke rates correspondingly fell. It’s like if you look at their stomach cancer rates, a cancer closely associated with excess salt intake. Their stomach cancer rates came down beautifully as they westernized their diets away from salt-preserved foods, but of course as they started eating more animal foods like dairy, their rates of fatal prostate cancer, for example, shot through the roof. Compared to Japan, not only does the U.S. have seven times more deaths from prostate cancer, but five times more deadly breast cancer, three times more colon cancer and lymphoma mortality, and six to twelve times the death rate from heart disease. Yes, Japanese stroke and stomach cancer rates were higher, but they were also eating up to a quarter cup of salt a day.

That would seem to be the most likely explanation, rather than some protective role of animal fat, as eventually acknowledged in the official Japanese guidelines for the prevention of cardiovascular disease.

Now, one of the Harvard cohorts found a protective association between both saturated fat and trans fat for hemorrhagic strokes, prompting a “sigh of relief throughout the cattle-producing Midwest,” even though the researchers clearly concluded that, of course, we all have to cut down on animal fat and trans fat for the heart disease benefit regardless, but looking at another major Harvard cohort they found no such protective association for any kind of stroke, and put all the studies together and zero protection across the board.

Observational studies have found that higher LDL cholesterol seems to be associated with lower risk of hemorrhagic stroke, raising the possibility that low cholesterol may be a double-edged sword, decreasing the risk of ischemic stroke but increasing the risk of hemorrhagic stroke. But low cholesterol levels in the aged may just be a surrogate for nutrient deficiencies, or a sign of debilitating diseases, or maybe they’re on a combo of cholesterol-lowering drugs and blood thinners, and that’s why we tend to see more brain bleeds in those with low cholesterol? You don’t know, until you: put it to the test. Put together about two dozen randomized controlled trials, and the lower your cholesterol the better when it comes to overall stroke risk, with no significant increase in the risk of hemorrhagic stroke with lower achieved LDL cholesterol levels.

The genetic data appears mixed, with some suggesting a lifetime of elevated LDL would give you a higher hemorrhagic stroke risk, and other data suggesting more of a double-edged sword effect, but any possible excess of bleeding stroke with lower cholesterol is greatly outweighed by the protective effect against the much more common clotting stroke, not to mention heart disease, perhaps on the order of 18 fewer clotting strokes for every one extra bleeding stroke with cholesterol lowering.

How about this as a candidate to explain the increased stroke risk found among vegetarians? This is the type of stroke that appeared higher in vegetarians, but the cholesterol levels in vegans were even lower and, if anything, they had a trend towards a higher clotting stroke risk; so, that doesn’t really make sense. If there is some kind of protective factor in animal foods, it is to be hoped that a diet can be found that still protects against killer #1, heart disease, without increasing the risk of killer #5, stroke. But first, we have to figure out what that factor is, a hunt that will continue, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

As Japan westernized, their stroke rate plummeted. Stroke was the leading cause of death in Japan, but the mortality rate sharply decreased as they moved away from their traditional diets and started eating more like those in the west; so, maybe there was a protective effect of all the extra meat and dairy they started to eat. After all, their animal fat and animal protein intake were going up at the same time their stroke rates were going down.

“Protection from stroke by eating animal foods? Surely not!” commented a noted Loma Linda cardiology professor. “Many vegetarians, like myself have almost come to expect the data to indicate that they have an advantage, whatever the disease that’s being considered. Thus, it is disquieting to find evidence in a quite different direction for at least one subtype of stroke.”

Can dietary saturated fat, like that found in meat and dairy, be beneficial in the prevention of stroke risk? There appeared to be a protective association, but only in East Asian populations. High dietary saturated fat was found associated with a lower risk of stroke in Japanese but not in non-Japanese. So, what was it about the traditional Japanese diet where the Westernization of their diets made things better when it came to stroke risk? Well, at the same time their meat and dairy was going up, their salt intake was going down.

The traditional Japanese diet was packed with salt—in fact, they had some of the highest salt intakes in the world, like a dozen spoonfuls of salt a day. Before the widespread availability of refrigeration, they ate all sorts of salted, pickled, fermented foods from soy sauce to salted fish. And in the areas that had twice the salt intake, they had twice the stroke mortality, but when the salt intake dropped do did the stroke death rates, because when the salt came down their blood pressures came down, too. And high blood pressure is perhaps the single most important modifiable risk factor for stroke. So, it’s no big mystery why the westernization of the Japanese diet led to a drop in stroke risk.

When they abandoned their more traditional diets their obesity rates went up, their diabetes and coronary artery disease went up, but as they gave up the insanely high salt intake their insanely high stroke rates correspondingly fell. It’s like if you look at their stomach cancer rates, a cancer closely associated with excess salt intake. Their stomach cancer rates came down beautifully as they westernized their diets away from salt-preserved foods, but of course as they started eating more animal foods like dairy, their rates of fatal prostate cancer, for example, shot through the roof. Compared to Japan, not only does the U.S. have seven times more deaths from prostate cancer, but five times more deadly breast cancer, three times more colon cancer and lymphoma mortality, and six to twelve times the death rate from heart disease. Yes, Japanese stroke and stomach cancer rates were higher, but they were also eating up to a quarter cup of salt a day.

That would seem to be the most likely explanation, rather than some protective role of animal fat, as eventually acknowledged in the official Japanese guidelines for the prevention of cardiovascular disease.

Now, one of the Harvard cohorts found a protective association between both saturated fat and trans fat for hemorrhagic strokes, prompting a “sigh of relief throughout the cattle-producing Midwest,” even though the researchers clearly concluded that, of course, we all have to cut down on animal fat and trans fat for the heart disease benefit regardless, but looking at another major Harvard cohort they found no such protective association for any kind of stroke, and put all the studies together and zero protection across the board.

Observational studies have found that higher LDL cholesterol seems to be associated with lower risk of hemorrhagic stroke, raising the possibility that low cholesterol may be a double-edged sword, decreasing the risk of ischemic stroke but increasing the risk of hemorrhagic stroke. But low cholesterol levels in the aged may just be a surrogate for nutrient deficiencies, or a sign of debilitating diseases, or maybe they’re on a combo of cholesterol-lowering drugs and blood thinners, and that’s why we tend to see more brain bleeds in those with low cholesterol? You don’t know, until you: put it to the test. Put together about two dozen randomized controlled trials, and the lower your cholesterol the better when it comes to overall stroke risk, with no significant increase in the risk of hemorrhagic stroke with lower achieved LDL cholesterol levels.

The genetic data appears mixed, with some suggesting a lifetime of elevated LDL would give you a higher hemorrhagic stroke risk, and other data suggesting more of a double-edged sword effect, but any possible excess of bleeding stroke with lower cholesterol is greatly outweighed by the protective effect against the much more common clotting stroke, not to mention heart disease, perhaps on the order of 18 fewer clotting strokes for every one extra bleeding stroke with cholesterol lowering.

How about this as a candidate to explain the increased stroke risk found among vegetarians? This is the type of stroke that appeared higher in vegetarians, but the cholesterol levels in vegans were even lower and, if anything, they had a trend towards a higher clotting stroke risk; so, that doesn’t really make sense. If there is some kind of protective factor in animal foods, it is to be hoped that a diet can be found that still protects against killer #1, heart disease, without increasing the risk of killer #5, stroke. But first, we have to figure out what that factor is, a hunt that will continue, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Doctor's Note

But wait, aren’t there studies suggesting saturated fat isn’t as bad as we used to think? Check out:

Just like the traditional Japanese diet had lots of things going for it but had the high sodium as the fatal flaw, what might be the Achilles heel of plant-based diets when it comes to stroke risk?

This is the 7th video in this stroke series. So far we’ve covered:

Stay tuned for:

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

112 responses to “Vegetarians and Stroke Risk Factors—Saturated Fat?

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    1. Reality bites,

      Did you read this list under “Doctor’s Notes?”

      “Stay tuned for:

      Vegetarians and Stroke Risk Factors—Animal Protein?
      Vegetarians and Stroke Risk Factors—Vitamin B12 & Homocysteine?
      How to Test for Functional Vitamin B12 Deficiency
      Should Vegetarians Take Creatine to Normalize Homocysteine?
      The Efficacy and Safety of Creatine for High Homocysteine”

      Does that answer your Big Question? Details will no doubt be provided in the upcoming videos.

      I like hearing all the evidence. That’s what this site is all about. Though I confess that I tend to remember just the conclusions. In fact, most everything we need to know is contained in the Daily Dozen

      1. Keep it simple, humans are made to eat plant based food and our anatomy proofs it .
        Animal fat clogs up our arteries, logic and simple to.
        Where do we get are protein from, were does a cow get his protein from?
        Yep from grass another BS that we need meat, a gorilla does not eat meat, do not make him angry what he gets when you give him meat, he knows better.
        Evidence is here in anatomy, do not put diesel in a gas car everybody knows.

        http://adaptt.org/archive/Mills%20The%20Comparative%20Anatomy%20of%20Eating1.pdf

        All plant eaters have seminal vesicles, party of reproduction organs, men have them is another proof.

        Doctor Gregor, do not ever tell people to drink tapwater !
        I wait for correction about you saying this is good to drink fluoridated water , therefore you have filters to take it out, are you really a advisor ?
        Fluoride is poison and lowers IQ and bleach in water is heavy metal to.

        HANS MOOLENBURGH: PHYSICIAN, SCIENTIST, AND WARRIOR FOR FREEDOM IN THE FIGHT AGAINST FLUORIDATION

        https://search.proquest.com/openview/4bedfa29ec3ac0d2b69a77228a7bccef/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=2045919

        And NO, the govern minds do not have the best interest else they never put it in to begin with..

        More proof ?
        Tube of Colgate tells you when child swallow it you have to call poison control immediately !
        But you do not swallow it ?
        Yeah right but you put a heart pill under your tongue so goes immediately in bloodstream, now drink it it good for your teeth, it is Evil..
        Now you know why the people are so dumb down, aha …

        Less is more and keep it simple.

        1. Marcus what else in the toothpaste besides fluoride that could act as a poison?

          Do you have any published journal articles about flouride to share?

      2. This problem already exists for casual visitors, not obsessive fans who have time to faithfully watch all the videos. There are too many videos often with unclear conclusions or recommendations that are poorly quantified or uncertain or confusing. Now we have multiple series like annoying tv shows that pad out the plot to earn more income. This turns people off and confuses them. It loses them instead of helping their health

        It’s just adding to the confusing noise. There are more compelling videos straight to the point to tell them to eat more eggs and whole animals..

        WFPB needs better communication. It’s a shame that such important research is being presented in this haphazard way. Often people I send here get exasperated and quit even trying to make sense of the videos

        1. I could understand stretching this all out with cliffhangers if there weren’t interesting avenues of nutritional research in the past few years that have barely received their due. But there are (one could do months on the microbiome alone). IMO, the best NF videos are a bit more self contained, but allow themselves 7-10 minutes to tell a story. When the site went from 5 to 3 videos a week, my hope was that we’d fewer but more in depth, videos.

          I suspect the writing/publishing of How Not to Diet and How to Survive a Pandemic have taken a lot of Dr. Greger’s time, and that’s contributed to the perceptible stretching of material. Perhaps NF would be more sustainable if Dr. Greger added other well-qualified writer/presenters (with script control, but the same production team). It doesn’t have to be a one-man show.

        2. “It’s a shame that such important research is being presented in this haphazard way. Often people I send here get exasperated and quit even trying to make sense of the videos”

          I agree…!

          It appears to be an attempt to be clever, cute, and possibly intellectually superior all in the same breathe.

        3. “This turns people off and confuses them. It loses them instead of helping their health”

          I agree with this. I like the old videos. They showed the pure science with incredibly understandable charts and graphs and were generally conclusive by the end with some exception where maybe a series could be understandably needed, but now it seems mostly series most the time and sometimes in videos a conclusion will seem to be clear but we don’t really know until the next, then the next shows how it isn’t the case after all. I can follow that, but most people I know would not bother to wait and watch. And a large portion of people I know would actually become confused by it, get frustrated, and stop watching. I do miss the straight-to-the-science-that-lead-to-the-point type of video. I enjoyed watching them more, too, because it was so relaxingly easy to follow, where as in the new videos, I have to really focus to not get distracted by hand gestures and expressions, etc.

          The type of videos that brought me here and I used to share, were the old ones such as (and I don’t remember the title of the video) the one explaining how animal protein can cause and proliferate cancer just for being so similar in structure to our own. Those were some of the greatest and most compelling and educational.

          Just my two cents.

          1. To elaborate, when I said “and a large portion of people I know would actually become confused by it, get frustrated, and stop watching,” that portion of people are the ones who need to be seeing and learning about this stuff the most. So that makes especially harder to share with the people who I know need to learn this stuff the most.

    2. Reality Bites – No one is forcing you to come here and watch any video at all.
      Why don’t you go spend your time doing something more enjoyable for you? You must be miserable having to watch these most awful videos.
      So sorry you are so miserable………………

    1. Agreed Tom. “Seems this story could be compressed to 1 to 2 videos”

      The shame is the dragged out content across multiple videos loses people who need to hear it ..

      1. WFPBBob – My thoughts for you are the same as for Reality Bites, above:
        “No”one is forcing you to come here and watch any video at all.
        Why don’t you go spend your time doing something more enjoyable for you? You must be miserable having to watch these most awful videos.
        So sorry you are so miserable………………”

        Perhaps if you were required to pay for this information you might have a more legitimate complaint. But given that this is freely shared scientific content, I have a hard time wondering why you feel you must complain, criticize and critique.

        Why don’t you go do something that you truly enjoy and not waste one more moment on this miserable excuse for scientific information dissemination.

  1. Even though this series on strokes seems long, I think it’s important to show the detailed analysis of numerous research papers and show all the detective work involved in finding the true answer to the question of what is causing strokes in vegans/vegetarians. If the answer was just given by a cursory overview in one 5 – minute video, it would be much less believable. (That’s the way the TV news presents information and the reason why no one believes them anymore.)

    1. Darwin,

      I agree.

      I love this stroke series.

      I had been reading these studies on my own and I got so confused by Japan. I would give Dr. Greger a great big air hug if I saw him and say, “Thank you for the stroke series.”

      It is so fascinating because my friend who is Gundry and Keto is also Paleo and she is like every argument that comes against WFPB as possible and she is doing olive oil and lemon cleanses for her gall bladder and liver and stroke is the one weapon she has that I need to understand how to discuss properly and I LOVE this series and I am soooooo glad that he made it exactly like it is.

      She has such health issues right now and I don’t even know what to say because she is doing lecithin and all these oils to prevent stroke and I feel like it is me against the whole world on every single topic over and over and over again my whole life.

      My coworker would tell me that is time to look and see if you are wrong but my response is that I look to see if I am wrong every single day and just needed someone who could help me with all of the math..

      1. Deb, I know it’s frustrating to try to convince others to change their habits. But I think you’re doing a great job. And persistence will pay off in the end.

        1. Darwin,
          I would add that when you meet a resistant person, it is time to move on to someone who will listen and consider, which is a better use of one’s time. The only exception I make is that if it is someone in my family, I persist!

        2. Darwin, on the topic of “convincing others”, I believe it’s important to be the first example. I can’t be very convincing in speaking about an evidenced based site, if I myself am not following the man’s diet (daily dozen), and demonstrating it’s effectiveness in losing weight/maintaining healthy weight, producing great or at least improving (wide range of )blood test results. Either it’s evidence based, or it isn’t.

          My friends and family have every right to reject anything I claim if I am still cramming in the junk food and not ‘posting’ my results. In fact, I usually wait for people to ask me questions first…. and they do.

    2. The detailed analysis would be better as a written supplement to a succinct video (response to Darwin).

      By better, I mean more effective communication for public health. These videos are more suited to a general audience than to medical Drs. Your average person doesn’t want a dozen cliffhanger (confusing) videos to tell them how to reduce their stroke risk when competing videos and their heros like Jordan Peterson tell them to eat more meat and only meat plus salt.

      1. Jose wrote:

        “This is about the facts, not a cult of personality.”

        For me, Jose just hit the nail right on the head.

        In this unfortunate current format, Dr. Greger appears to have become victim of his own celebrity.

        Dr. Greger is at his best when he remains behind the curtain.

        When Dr. Greger tries too hard – for example, the treadmill videos – aka the “Bouncing Betty” videos – the presentation is not enhanced.

        With the more recent format where Dr. Greger puts himself between the science and the audience – the problem is of even more pronounced.

        Why should I care?

        Why not just go elsewhere?

        I care because I used to be able to refer people in need to this site.

        And they got better.

        Dr. Greger’s excellent videos on insulin resistance and on cholesterol crystallization have been life changing for people with whom I have directly dealt:

        https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/

        https://nutritionfacts.org/video/cholesterol-crystals-may-tear-though-our-artery-lining/

        Forwarding of specific urls of Dr. Greger’s older videos on diet and prostate cancer have also resulted in profound changes in people.

        Lowered PSAs. Likely greatly improved cytology on surgery (no way to prove that with certainly – but it looks like what happened).

        But with this current ego-forward format – I cannot refer anyone to this site.

        It would be too embarrassing.

        ——————————-

        Daryl wrote:

        “I could understand stretching this all out with cliffhangers if there weren’t interesting avenues of nutritional research in the past few years that have barely received their due. But there are (one could do months on the microbiome alone). IMO, the best NF videos are a bit more self contained, but allow themselves 7-10 minutes to tell a story. When the site went from 5 to 3 videos a week, my hope was that we’d fewer but more in depth, videos.

        I suspect the writing/publishing of How Not to Diet and How to Survive a Pandemic have taken a lot of Dr. Greger’s time, and that’s contributed to the perceptible stretching of material. Perhaps NF would be more sustainable if Dr. Greger added other well-qualified writer/presenters (with script control, but the same production team). It doesn’t have to be a one-man show.”

        I hadn’t been able to put my finger on it – my thoughts had not been able to coalesce – but Darryl put words to thoughts that have been banging around in my head like a pinball knockin’ around in an old mechanical pinball machine (complete with body English).

        Being clever and cute is all kinda neat. A great pun in passing – or an illustrative story – all help the medicine go down.

        All very true.

        But the great videos that Dr. Greger has done – the life changers – the ones I refer people to this site for – have been tightly crafted works of knowledge without an ounce of fat on them – works that clearly take the viewer from ignorance to knowledge to action.

        To improved health.

        Improvement that can be documented.

        Those works are not the undirected associated scattershot stuff we are seeing lately.

        The spread out of information over time – with the random Friday interruption – well –

        I would not be able to refer one person to one of these series. Even if they were presented well, in the non-egotistical earlier format – which they are not.

        NutritionFacts would greatly benefit from improved Editing.

        ————————————

        As to – hey, it’s free – stop complaining – beggars can’t be choosers.

        None of us are beggars here. We all know how excellent Dr. Greger can be at his best – and we would like see Dr. Greger return to his best.

        As to – don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.

        The saying does to apply when the horse has gone lame.

        As to continuing concerns expressed being inappropriate because Dr. Greger will one day, apparently, change.

        The expressions of concern remain appropriate expressed daily as long as the current style of presentations is being posted daily.

        As to those who prefer the current style – or, for that matter, who really, really enjoy the treadmill videos –

        De gustibus non est disputandum.

        All the best –

        Vivamus

        1. @ Vivamus: Sincere thanks for voicing your concerns about problems that have arisen since Dr. Greger decided to insert himself into his informative videos. I hope you (or, perhaps, more likely those who had voiced enjoyment of this change of format when it was new—or an experiment) don’t misunderstand me: I was a daily follower of Dr. G and an admirer of almost everything he revealed. For sometime now, however, I regret to say that I cannot abide his on-screen interference (by about 50% of screen space) with presentation of research excerpts: to me, it is the distracting equivalent of having half the area of a television screen taken up by, say, the director of a good film communicating with body motions to the actors in that film. *It gets in the way of comprehension!* (I’ll also add to your observations that the good doctor’s vocal, ummm … well, I’ll call them “mannerisms”—something that took some time for me to accept—have increased greatly since he started appearing on the “small screen.”) I have taken to reading the transcripts of the videos. But this approach lacks the depth of the former full-screen excerpts of quotations from the articles &/or charts formerly displayed.

          I, like you, Vivamus, used to direct friends to Dr. Greger’s videos. No more, though, since some of them already found the previous vocal “quirkiness” too much too bear as it was. I regret having to de-Gregerize my informal health studies, and some might blame me for being intolerant, saying, “Well, it’s *your* choice, buddy—not Dr. Greger’s—to abstain from his ‘entertaining’ style.” Maybe they’d be right. But as a college/university professor (now retired after 40+ years in the “business”), I must say that delivery can either help or hinder instructional success. And, I’ve found through experience on both sides of a classroom, being too “entertaining” (if that is indeed Dr. G’s motivation for his on-screen physical presence) can distract from the message. What a shame he’s chosen to follow this path—or so I think.

          1. Thorn324,

            Yup.

            A few thoughts:

            Dr. Greger seems to attract groupies who cannot get enough of him in any format. He can do no wrong. Primarily female – but not entirely.

            If you have ever been a drummer in a rock band – you know the score.

            Uncritical adulation, however, is never a good thing. Not for anyone involved.

            I have experienced it first hand. Broke some hearts – hey, we were young and I didn’t understand my responsibility. And you can’t go back and fix the things you’ve done – no matter how much you wish you could.

            All you can do is to consciously choose to become less selfish and more kind – until these traits become habitual.

            Core.

            —————————————-

            You wrote that you used to “used to direct friends to Dr. Greger’s videos. No more, though, since some of them already found the previous vocal “quirkiness” too much too bear as it was.”

            I direct people – emailing appropriate urls with brief explanations – to only a few of Dr. Greger’s past videos that speak specifically to their specific conditions. Never to the NutrtionFacts site in general. And I review the videos prior to referring to make sure that the light switch has the greatest chance to click in their minds.

            And it is only after time spent with them to set up the concepts. Sort of an I hit em high, Greger hits ’em low approach.

            And it is not just Greger – I use whatever sources work, depending on the situation.

            My batting average this way has been pretty good. But the successes have primarily been people dealing with acute changes in health status when they have been most highly motivated – typically when they have sought me out. Not with the resistant person whom you might be trying to reach but who is going to be actively looking for excuses to fail, anyway.

            I would, of course, never consider trying this with Dr. Greger’s current style of videos.

            That would be a waste of time.

            —————————————-

            You write: “. . . as a college/university professor (now retired . . . ”

            May I ask which field? There is so much to learn.

            Oh – have students changed over time?

            —————————————-

            Have you looked into any other web sites for your health fix?

            If so – please refer.

            I find most professional society and governmental web sites to be of limited use. Most useful when I want to know the latest official current recommendations – which are often political compromises (governmental or scientific/economic). But pretty useless for any depth of knowledge over time.

            I used to find Dr. John A. McDougall’s newsletters to be helpful – but he stopped writing them in 2017, so they are no longer current. I have actually found his page of patient success stories to be of interest – looking at whatever condition I might be focusing on at the time. Of course, McDougall only gives us his successes, not his failures – he is a salesman, after all, selling himself. Still – these stories humanize the health conditions and do reflect much of what I have actually seen in the field: https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/stars/

            I have not found Dr. Dean Ornish’s or T. Colin Campbell’s web sites to be useful.

            Dr. Gabe Mirkin’s web site is titillating, with some fairly solid teaching brought into focus by his speculations on the deaths of various members of the rich and famous. Many of whom I had never heard of – such is my cloistered lot. You think that you have no interest in gossip or in the whole American celebration of Celebrity Culture – then you plug into Dr. Mirkin, and find that you are perhaps as susceptible to the lure as anyone else on the planet (laughing at Self). It is like being one of the crowd gawking at an awesome celebrity train wreck. I find Mirkin’s approach questionable ethically, so I will not post the url – I would certainly never do what he does, myself – but it is strangely seductive, which is his point. He meets people where they are. Mirkin has a few health points which he repeats over and over again – a week or two, and you will have most down. All pretty sound – the only one I would take issue with is his focus on intermittent fasting, which I find questionable. I take a look at his web site, now and then, when I want to take a walk on the medical-ethical wild side . . .

            —————————————-

            Fortunately, the change to the NutritionFacts format has largely coincided with the advent of the Novel Coronavirus.

            That is called “looking on the bright side.”

            With NutritionFacts, you are looking at material which just might help you live to be a hundred.

            With focusing elsewhere on knowledge of the Coronavirus, you are looking to live through the year.

            So Coronavirus knowledge has taken precedence over learning the latest nuance on eating a 100-year diet.

            In regard to the Novel Cornavirus – my own crew has been practicing the Precautionary Principle since January / February. Based considerably on the Vietnamese example. Typically ignoring all CDC / WHO / FDA / U.S governmental guidance – except to confirm what not to do.

            Sort of a biomedical Murphy’s Law – if the Novel Coronavirus can go wrong, it will.

            I mention this to you to let you know that our crew has, over the last few weeks, been increasing it’s level of alert. Two concerns:

            (1) Possible significant long term health issues affecting perhaps 10-80 % of those infected – even those only casually affected initially. With more long-term unknowns extending into the future than you can shake a thermometer at.

            (2) Possible exponential increases over the next month or two as children return to school. Our Chinese contingent is particularly vocal – it may be helpful if you speak Mandarin. The Chinese-American community is, by and large, not sending their children back to school. They know too much. All this concern possibly significantly mitigated by population-wide wearing of masks. We just don’t know.

            Thorn324.

            You take care –

            Vivamus

            1. Vivamus, I have enjoyed reading Dr Mirkin’s articles for many years. As a triple board certified physician, he presents his view of the new science in health, nutrition and fitness, cites the studies, and offers very practical suggestions. He and his wife have carved out a healthful wfpb plan of eating that helped resolve some medical issues they were facing. She has posted hundreds of recipes to get people started on a healthy way of living.
              His website is a valuable resource for those of us looking for health, nutrition, and fitness facts.

              https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/high-blood-sugar-limits-benefits-from-exercise.html

              1. And you’ve never read any of his “Deaths of Famous People” pieces?

                Ho-ho!

                The url you posted: https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/high-blood-sugar-limits-benefits-from-exercise.html
                is quintessential Mirkin – but I find it far better not to spike blood sugar after meals in the first place – rather than to try to ameliorate the damage afterwards with exercise.

                I have long found Dr. Mirkin’s emphasis on exercise to be problematic. His web site states proudly: “He wrote the chapter on sports injuries for the Merck Manual.”

                Yup.

                I prefer to not see people injured in the first place.

                Hey – I know the Sports Medicine people.

                I keep my distance.

                ——————————————————————–

                Quick and easy reality check #1: Dan Buettner – who isn’t Boarded in anything – he is a Journalist, not a Physician – notes that the longest lived people on the planet – people living traditional lifestyles – Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece); the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California – do not “exercise” at all.

                No jogging. No gym workouts. Nope. None of Dr. Mirkin’s favorite things.

                Nor are they sedentary – they just walk and such as an integral part of their activities of daily living – throughout the day – instead of driving everywhere.

                Quick and easy reality check #2 – when I consider the 90-year olds in my own family – they are not exercisers.

                The big exercisers I have known – including the high school and college athletes – the joggers – have to curtail their exercise by later life due to joint damage and back problems. And they get overweight because they have long been accustomed to an exerciser’s higher dietary calorie intake. And they age quicker. And they die younger.

                The non-exercisers joints keep on ticking into their 90s.

                Go the exercise route – and you may well find yourself, at best, peddling a recumbent bicycle.

                ——————————————————-

                Simple lesson – joints wear out. Unless you are wise enough not to wear them out.

                You will note that Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Esselstyn also de-emphasize the importance of exercise in their programs, emphasizing nutrition, instead. I believe they both consider exercise optional.

                Note that Dr. Mirkin is author or co-author to the following books: The Sports Medicine Book, Women and Exercise, The Complete Sports Medicine Book for Women. His primary interest has always been sports.

                Mine has always been health and longevity.

                These are completely different orientations.

                ————————————————————–

                My take – Dr. Mirkin is interesting. His work on the deaths of the rich and famous are great fun – in a morbid kind of way.

                And he gives us things to think about.

                But I do not take his work on intermittent fasting or his work on health and exercise seriously.

                They do not pass two separate quick and easy reality checks.

                Or life experience.

                ————————————————————–

                For myself – I have invested in one expensive piece of equipment for my phsycal needs.

                A $1.00 electronic kitchen time – set to go off every half hour to get up from the chair and move about a bit.

                If I am too focused – I just ignore it and keep doin’ whatever I am doin’ and get up when I feel like it. No big deal. And then

                . . . I pace the earth, and drink the air, and feel the sun . . .

                (Housman)

                And when the sun is out, I take brief walks outside for Vitamin D during Solar Noon:

                . . . mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun . . .

                (Coward)

                A bit of gardening. Walks to the supermarket.

                It all probably adds up to a half hour of walking a day or more.

                But – importantly – it is scattered throughout the day, not just in one dose of official “exercise.”

                You know – just like the Blue Zones people – and my own long lived family members – pace things out.

                Not like Dr. Mirkin does it.

                Barb.

                You take care –

                Vivamus

                1. So what do you disagree with in his recommendations from the article you linked to?

                  “These new studies remind us that you cannot expect exercise alone to control high blood sugar levels. You can help to control blood sugar levels with a diet that restricts foods with added sugar, all sugared drinks, foods made from ground up grains and other processed foods (*BMJ Open*, 2016;6:e009892). I also recommend eating a wide variety of vegetables, fruits, whole (unground) grains, beans, nuts and other seeds.”

                  He does not emphasize just exercise. He emphasizes both WFPB and exercise. It is quite clear from the science cited and discussed in his articles on exercise that it is more important than you seem to realize.

                  I hope others are wise enough to ignore your unjustified dissing of Dr.
                  Mirkin.

                2. @Viv
                  “Simple lesson – joints wear out. Unless you are wise enough not to wear them out.”

                  Now you tell me?

                  Ok, so, I do resistance training (RT) because dad got Alzheimer’s and apparently studies show RT fights the onset of same… I do like the shape it gives one as well, and I don’t mean the body building craziness, just the form that occurs when one does repetitive physical activity mimicking manual “work” rather than travel.

                  Presumably, some folks from Okinawa (Japan); Sardinia (Italy); Nicoya (Costa Rica); Icaria (Greece); the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California also built and maintained heavy things and thereby “exercised”, no?

                  Thoughts?

                  —————-
                  Side note re: your drummer story:
                  Q: What do you call a drummer without a girlfriend?
                  A: Homeless.

                  1. @jazzBASS,

                    My thought? Of course, if you are ill-informed and do something inappropriate for your conditioning level or age, then you can get injured. But there is much greater risk from doing too little exercise than from doing too much (again you have to know your conditioning level and limitations or get advice from someone trained in the subject like a sports doctor).

                    Resistance exercise strengthens your heart as well as you skeletal muscles. There is some evidence too that it is good for cognition.

                    https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/brain-benefits-from-exercise.html

                    https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/1550.html

                    There are tons of articles on the benefits of exercise, and there is lots of evidence that exercise of greater intensity is better than low intensity. Just be sensible. I heartily recommend reading Dr. Mirkin’s articles on exercising and noting his recommendations for the unconditioned. He lives his recommendations: he eats a WFPB diet and exercises every day, and at 85 appears to be in great shape.

                    Use it or lose it! Be sensible. Get advice from people who know what they are talking about like Dr. Mirkin.

                    1. Also
                      https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/strength-training-may-reduce-deaths-from-heart-attacks-and-cancers.html

                      https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/resistance-exercise-you-can-do-at-home.html

                      https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/weight_lifting_seniors.html

                      https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/how-to-do-interval-training.html

                      (Nb: As Mirkin states in an article, be careful with interval training, overdoing it can lead to injuries. But done safely it is very effective. Mirkin at 85 does intervals on a bike. At 73 I do intervals on an exercise bike, tread mill and outdoors. If you don’t like intervals, substitute longer, less intense aerobic exercise.)

                  2. “Thoughts?”

                    You are out of my reservoir of specific knowledge.

                    And I do not know if anyone can give you exactly what you are looking for.

                    Just individual trees – but the image of the whole forest is elusive.

                    I can only step back and offer the following impressions – noting that reasonable people may disagree.

                    If your interest is in overall health and longevity – stay as far away from the work of the exercise physiologists as you can get.

                    Run – if you can. If not – walk.

                    Exercise physiologists idea of a long term study is six months.

                    Their idea of nutrition is heavy on protein. In my perception – to the degree of recklessness.

                    I have dealt with them on this. To deaf ears.

                    It is what they are taught and what their literature says.

                    When confronted with contrasting literature – they run away.

                    Use your common sense – take it slow – take it easy.

                    Variety and moderation.

                    Dance seems to be the best exercise for longevity – if you can still manage it.

                    As for the Alzheimer’s – risk factors are multifactorial.

                    You might try a little bit of everything.

                    As far as strength –

                    I challenged my 88 year-old grandfather one day to Indian wrestling.

                    I was younger than he.

                    Hey – we were having a good time on the farm.

                    I figured I would lose subtly and make him feel good. But – best laid plans –

                    He whupped me fair and square.

                    He was a farmer. 62 head of cattle. You understand what that means physically.

                    Great food from the garden.

                    Skinny as a rail – never was over 138 pounds.

                    A LOT of hard times over the years.

                    Epidemics. Depressions. Wars.

                    Life on the farm was very, very low key.

                    Watchin’ the grass grow.

                    A LOT of sleep. Great rockin’ chair in the kitchen right next to the old coal stove.

                    Died at 95. Dementia – then pneumonia.

                    Daughters holdin’ vigil.

                    Not a bad way to go.

                    Take your vitamin B12 – and enjoy movement in everyday life.

                    And never listen to the exercise physiologists.

                    ——————————–

                    Oh – I am going to steal your note about the homeless drummer.

                    I am still grinnin’

                    ———————————

                    jazzBass.

                    All the best –

                    Vivamus

                    ———————————-

                    Never play cards with a man called Doc. Never eat at a place called Mom’s. Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own.

                    Nelson Algren
                    1956

                  3. jb, this offering is a ted talk by distinguished Director of Brain Research Center at UBC, Dr Max Cynader. I have collected a few talks that are imo time well worth watching. Bottom line for brain health and avoiding dementia? Sleep and exercise are 2 critical components.

            2. Vivamus, >>> I find Mirkin’s approach questionable ethically, so I will not post the url – I would certainly never do what he does, myself – but it is strangely seductive, which is his point.

              Wow, I could hardly disagree more about Dr.Mirkin. He is the opposite of titillating. What you call “titillating” I’d call human interest. How do you know what “his point” is?

              I don’t read that many of his mini biographies but have enjoyed the ones I have. It seems to be a hobby of his to write short biographies of people that interest him. But what on earth is wrong with that? In any event it is a minuscule part of his blog and not part of his health or fitness articles per se.

              His articles are well referenced, succinct and clearly written. He is not an ideologue, which is refreshing. He also checks the content of his posts (dates provided at the ends of the articles), even pulling some posts over time as the science and his views have evolved.

              Dr. Mirkin is at the top of my list when it comes to recommending to others sound sources of unbiased diet and exercise information.

              Lastly when it comes to exercise advice for older people, he’s simply the best in my view. The importance of exercise including strength training for older people is usually overlooked. He fills that gap very nicely.

              1. ” Wow, I could hardly disagree more about Dr.Mirkin. He is the opposite of titillating. What you call “titillating” I’d call human interest. How do you know what “his point” is? ”

                Different perspectives are what makes horse races.

                ————————————————————————-

                “I don’t read that many of his mini biographies but have enjoyed the ones I have. It seems to be a hobby of his to write short biographies of people that interest him. But what on earth is wrong with that? In any event it is a minuscule part of his blog and not part of his health or fitness articles per se.”

                Out of today’s Mirkin’s home page, four out ten of his posts are on celebrity deaths. That is 40%.

                Today’s titles:

                Sumner Redstone’s Dementia
                Robert Oppenheimer, Father of the Atomic Bomb
                Cass Elliot: Young Death from Morbid Obesity
                Regis Philbin’s Lifestyle Changes

                For you it may be like glancing at the front page of the New England Journal of Medicine.

                For me it is like glancing at the front page of the National Enquirer.

                ————————————————————————-

                “But what on earth is wrong with that?”

                Well – he does not have the medical records at hand, nor the patient or family permission.

                I would feel uncomfortable using other’s deaths – without their or their heirs’ permission – to promote my web site.

                Others obviously feel differently.

                ————————————————————————-

                “Lastly when it comes to exercise advice for older people, he’s simply the best in my view. The importance of exercise including strength training for older people is usually overlooked. He fills that gap very nicely.”

                Be sure to read up on his work on sports injuries while you are at it.

                言語学者 (gengo-gakusha) .

                All the best –

                Vivamus

            3. Your comment of following the “Precautionary Principle” brought to mind a rule I often live by: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

        2. In my generation, people can be very… judgmental and assuming. I’ve known people to see Dr. Greger and make an assumption about him and have a sort of defensive wall up before even watching a presentation by him or hearing him. This isn’t to say there is anything wrong with Dr. Greger, it could happen to anyone, I’m sure it’s happened with other doctors and other public speakers. It’s just a part of human nature that occurs sometimes, which is one of the reasons why just presenting the science was more powerful.

  2. Over 30 years ago, the Japanese government a concerted effort to persuade people to lower their salt intake substantially. Low and lower salt products were introduced. So it seems to me misleading to point to the adoption of a more westernized diet as the only or the key difference

    1. Gengo,

      This video is a part of a series and that part is coming. No misleading. He is showing the logic stretched out for the logic people.

      1. >>> This video is a part of a series and that part is coming So you are saying he is going to mention the long term effort of the Japanese government to get people to reduce salt intake in future videos/

        Even so, I think attributing the lowered salt consumption to the shift in diet and not mentioning then the government program to encourage that was unfortunate (call it what you want, the point remains).

        1. As if the next video will suddenly say “Oh, by the way, I should have said that the Japanese government realised the risks of a high salt diet and launched a public education and health plan to reduce salt intake. Coincidentally, a western diet also reached Japan”

          That bit in the video also struck me as off as we all know the standard Western diet is too high in salt, even if lower than Japanese traditional diet… I thought a key may have been the spread of modern electric refrigeration in Japanese households as traditionally people around the world salted foods to preserve it

  3. The thing about logic is that you have to keep examining it.

    Today, I am thinking that I might put solar panels on my roof. Last year, I decided against it because my electricity has been low and because I was afraid of fire risk and treating fire risk. This month, my electric bill almost tripled, and drones were used to fight a solar panel fire and I was able to find out the things that lower the risk of fire significantly. Plus, my neighbor made me jealous because their electricity used to be over triple mine and the electric company used to send them letters that theirs was so much higher than mine and they used to contact the electric company saying, “We have 6 people in our house.” But now they have solar panels and their monthly bill is $9 per month. There are still 3 more “risks” that I have to figure out, like it needing to be a 20-year contract if I lease or will the economy crash if I take a loan, etc. but the whole point is that the logic shifts on every topic every single year. People who don’t keep up with information have to run marathons to almost catch up but videos like the ones Dr. Greger is putting up will help vegans know the risks.

    I feel like many of you have been following it for 40 or 50 years and don’t need the logic stretched out. Newbies need it like this.

    1. Deb I’m not sure logic is truly influenced by fear, but best of luck anyway.

      Sometimes making that decision might mean just going for it too. Like if it ends up that you spend a bit more after solar, than will you die because of that? But , paying a few extra bucks to know you are one of the pioneers in what we should all aspire to, may also be worth something, including better health, in more ways than are obvious.

    1. José,

      The videos are made a year at a time and he has already heard that feedback and that will be reflected in future videos.

      But I will disagree based on the fact that there are hundreds of doctors trying to put this same information on the internet.

      It is the facts AND the cult of personality that has made Dr. Greger a phenomenon.

      This site wouldn’t even exist without his great big personality.

      Yes, I will agree that his personality is so big that he doesn’t even have to be on the screen to have it show.

      He is like Rudolph’s shiny nose.

      Look what he can do because of that great big shiny personality.

      1. And I will also say that I try not to be a shallow person who follows celebrity or charisma but I ALSO watch a whole lot of other doctors on these topics and Dr. Greger is still the most fun and entertaining and I appreciate that so much.

          1. To get health answers straight Blair. Perhaps while feeling highly stressed over a Dr’s diagnosis and conflicting information from different sources

    2. @ José: Thanks! If enough of us communicate to the (admittedly wise) doctor that we prefer him to be off-screen so as to let the strength of the nutrition facts to be the central focus, maybe he will no longer appear. (Or so I hope.)

    3. The older style of videos were much easier to follow the science, there was no glimmer or distraction and it was essentially, in a word, pure. I don’t blame people for sharing their opinions. It’s disappointing and harder to share this new style with other people, especially large series’ of videos which most do not bother to watch.

  4. Stroke causation has multiple factors. Nutrition science helps to identify them. I am not so forgiving of salt now; not that I eat much of it anyway.

  5. This is off topic, but it’s about the Daily Dozen app (iPhone version)

    I thought I’d check in with the app, to see how I’m doing — and it’s not refreshing, or updating. It shows me the data from yesterday.

    Does anyone know how to refresh it? Has anyone else had this problem?

    This is the first time I’ve experienced any problem, but I don’t use it very often.

  6. Here is more detail on the recent Buddhist stroke study mentioned earlier.
    Vegetarians had lower serum vitamin B12 and higher folate and homocysteine than nonvegetarians. https://n.neurology.org/content/neurology/early/2020/02/26/WNL.0000000000009093.full.pdf
    “After adjusting for other factors, researchers found vegetarians in this group had a 48% lower risk of overall stroke than non-vegetarians, a 60% lower risk of ischemic stroke and a 65% lower risk of hemorrhagic stroke.” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200228102225.htm

    The Taiwan study involved two groups of people from Buddhist communities in Taiwan where a vegetarian diet is encouraged, and smoking and drinking alcohol are discouraged. The first group of 5,050 people was followed for an average of six years. The second group of 8,302 people was followed for an average of nine years. Vegetarians ate more nuts, vegetables and soy than non-vegetarians and consumed less dairy. Both groups consumed the same amount of eggs and fruit. Vegetarians ate more fiber and plant protein. They also ate less animal protein and fat.

    The Oxford study in contrast involved vegetarians who consumed a Western diet minus the meat, poultry and fish, with high calorie dairy products substituted instead. The British group consumed less fiber, more fat, and presumably less soy and rice compared to the Taiwanese group. Moreover, traditionally eggs and dairy are not permitted in Buddhist cuisine. There were also smokers and drinkers among the Oxford group but not among the Taiwanese group.

    “Overall, our study found that a vegetarian diet was beneficial and reduced the risk of ischemic stroke even after adjusting for known risk factors like blood pressure, blood glucose levels and fats in the blood,” said Lin. “This could mean that perhaps there is some other protective mechanism that may protecting those who eat a vegetarian diet from stroke.”

  7. Love this guy! Cant wait for the reveal!

    To STAFF and ALL-

    I did not receive a real answer to my main question regrding nutrient reccos, though I did hear about invisible socks (huh?) and yay for sugar (by applauding no testicles thinly veiled warning outputs of FDA), and eat oysters (thanks but I’m off animals for food) etc.

    So I’ll ask again more simply:

    **Is there an actual list of ALL nutrients (there aren’t that many), AND their recommended daily consumption (known as DV) which is agreed upon by Dr. Greger?**

    I realize that providing this may negate any need for further watching of vids or buying of books, because we would follow it and be competency balanced and healthy, but I for one would come back every day knowing that things could change, and Greger is watching all those things.

    I suspect the same to be true for so many.

    Thank you doctor Greger, and staff!

        1. **Please disregard my request for DV on nutrients.**

          I have just been reminded that I once wrote Dr. Greger, talking about being concerned I wasn’t getting enough of the right stuff being so new to the WFPB way.

          I explained my diet to him, and what I was doing along with his daily dozen. I cant believe I forgot this, but perhaps it was because I received so short a response.

          After all my explanation about activities and concerns (and, ironically, how I’d scoured his site for this same list Ive just now asked everyone for above), he wrote me back and said, only:

          “Just make sure to take your B-12”

          Big things come in small packages sometimes.

          I do take my B-12, and the only deficiency I’ve shown is super low Vitamin D. (way lower than my doc allows)

  8. https://nutritiondata.self.com/

    Hi jazzBass. Perhaps this great website above can help you? I go to it for nutrient info and find it very good.

    Thanks for the great detective hunt Dr. Greger. I love seeing you animate the information- we all know the best motivator for information is an inspirational one!

    A proud and healthy monthly supporter of Nutritionfacts.org ;)

    1. @Bobbi, never mind.. come to think of it, I was all over that site today actually, so its likely the website is in maintenance mode right now.

      In fact I went there because no one seems to be able to answer the request. anyway thanks.

  9. I go “Oh my God! He’s doing it again!” when I see – yet again – another cliff hanger. Regardless of how many times it happens, it never fails to surprise me. And I get a hardy laugh! Which is Wonderful…and I tune in for the next installment :)

  10. Deb – Do you see yourself as a NF representative? You respond to everything and everyone like you are the teachers pet or the hallway monitor.
    Have you ever thought about letting others have their conversation without you needing to control it?
    Give it some thought Deb.
    Maybe not everyone needs to hear from you ……..mull that over.

    1. True R. My comment on pointless videos (the ones in which content is padded out so there’s no actual health recommendation) being a waste of donations may have sounded too harsh, but partly I adjust for Deb’s habit of smothering out all feedback that differs from her own opinion. It’s helpful to share NF links and factual information in response to questions Deb, aside from that, there’s too much compulsive oversharing of personal opinion that drowns out the factual comments. The noise scares off people who want to learn from the facts. Personally I hate wading through the numerous frivolous comments looking for clarity when the video left something half explained.

      I’m enormous fan of Dr Greger’s work but NF needs a better strategy for effective health communication to reach the casual viewer from the general public who has a pressing health concern

    2. It’s a public comment board. Deb’s perfectly free to comment as much or as little as she chooses. So are you.

      Maybe not everyone needs to hear from you either (or me) …. but you and I, like Deb, are still free to post our comments

        1. ….But… should we use the privilege to post comments about other comments?

          Might that not be a meaningless waste of time and space?

                1. Pooh-poohing incorrect, rude, insulting or crank posts is probably a good thing.

                  Allowing falsehoods to go unchallenged isn’t particularly helpful. In my opinion at least.

                  1. Tom, enough. Seriously, enough.

                    You cannot write here that people have every write to post their thoughts and then defend your own admonitions of posts, based on your own criteria.

                    Just stop it. …You want to be that guy? A hypocrite? I doubt it and I am sorry you don’t realize what you are doing.

                    The solution is, we follow your own advice:

                    “It’s a public comment board. Deb’s perfectly free to comment as much or as little as she chooses. So are you.

                    Maybe not everyone needs to hear from you either (or me) …. but you and I, like Deb, are still free to post our comments”

                    So, as you say in your post, (with my additional progressive bent):

                    Let us, Tom, leave ALL comments to to sit there in their freedom to do so, and I would add, let us try, while avoiding those posts we don’t like, to post only what is relevant to our health, in good faith and the enrichment of our collective lives.

                    I formally agree to do the same.

  11. Why would I keep supporting a charity that’s wasting donations like this on pointless videos?

    Was there any point to this video? Dont eat traditional Japanese diet that noone eats anymore. Riiight What’s a spoonful? Just time wasting.

    Appreciate the research but why bother making a video over nothing? Why would I support a charity that’s wasting donations like this? Please spend more time on the useful published research, not moving head video drama and not dragging content out like an annoying TV show

    1. The Japanese traditional diet causing strokes is the logic of why we know that healthy diets can cause more strokes while not having the other risk factors.

      It isn’t useless information.

      It is how science figured out a piece of why vegans and vegetarians have strokes.

    2. The part you thought of as the most useless is the part I found the most extraordinarily useful in the logic problem of whether vegans have more strokes.

      Japanese were on a diet that was so extraordinarily healthy and they began to Westernize their diet to one that is so unhealthy and their stroke rate decreased.

      When I read those studies myself, I was blown away by the mystery and I found this series useful to understand that WFPB isn’t enough and that is what Dr. Greger is explaining.

      If he skipped that study, there could be a shadow of doubt about it.

    3. To me, the Japanese part is like the “Engineering a Cure” part of the cancer series.

      We could say that the English didn’t eat enough soy or drank too much beer or all sorts of other things, but the Japanese had a diet of longevity, except that stroke was their leading cause of death and going SAD in their diet improved that.

      I am sorry if I have offended you but you hate that part of the series and that part of the series is the biggest, absolute most important factor in my life on a vegan diet.

      From this webinar forward, it has changed how I look at sodium even or how I view stroke as a risk factor in my life.

      I am not trying to shut other people up.

      You find this useless and want to threaten Dr. Greger that you will remove your funding and want to influence people to follow you and I want him to know that this is one of the most important videos in my life.

      1. And I SPECIFICALLY asked Dr. Greger to do this series when the EPIC-Oxford study came out and we discussed vegans and stroke on these pages and he covered every topic that we brought up and did bring clarity on it as far as I am concerned.

        And I paid for the webinar and saw all of the answers on the same day and have a copy in computer including notes and I found it exceedingly worth it.

        1. And I will add that you mentioned that you are here trying to figure out what to believe about contradictory information and 2 years ago, on this site, there were wars on the topic of sodium and Dr. McDougall said to go ahead and use some and the vegans on YouTube were all using soy sauce in their recipes and I was following them because of taste.

          But Dr. Greger was taking a stronger stand and this video is part of the logic of why not to eat soy sauce and why to be even more careful about sodium.

          I have a list of the things the doctors disagree with and this video would be one of two videos by Dr. Greger next to Dr. McDougall’s video where he okayed adding some salt to recipes for palatability.

          Next to Dr. McDougall’s comment is also his own logic because if people won’t eat WFPB because they don’t like the flavor, then it would be detrimental withholding salt.

          Also next to it is a comment by Chef AJ that if you don’t go very, very low in sodium, sugar, and oil, your taste buds won’t adapt.

          And that wouldn’t matter at all if there wasn’t a health risk.

          Dr Greger is the one inserting the specific health risks.

          1. Easy Deb breathe… ok I am picking up what you are putting down. Salt is big, and I remember feeling like it was a joke until I decided to look into it myself, so good going on that.

            Ive got a question about soy sauce and Miso though.

            I may have extended his meaning to include soy sauce because its so damn good and has similar ingredients, but didn’t Dr. G say the problem with salt in miso is magically mitigated by the soy? IS that not the case with soy sauce as well? Yikes!

            While you are at it on this reply, can you help with an answer for me on my previous question?

            Ive asked 3 times now, addressed to all, and it seems people are unable to read it thoroughly.

            I would like the complete list of the dietary nutrients (sanctioned by Dr. G), DV minimum recommendations (from him).
            (not asking for personal suggestions)

            Does this exist anywhere in the -what is it, 15 years of this site?

            Anyone?

            Ok, Id thought the daily dozen covered it, plus the 21 tweaks… but I found that B12 is also needed and maybe Vitamin D, but other things like maybe copper, zinc, dHA, etc..

            SO what else am I missing if I do the daily dozen?? AND how much of it do I need? And, how to get it without eating animals?

            Here’s a starter list:

            Essential Nutrients
            *****************************
            Water

            Water

            Vitamins

            Vitamin A (retinol)
            Vitamin B1 (thiamin)
            Vitamin B2 (riboflavin)
            Vitamin B3 (niacin)
            Vitamin B5 (panthotenic acid)
            Vitamin B6 (pyridoxin)
            Vitamin B7 (biotin)
            Vitamin B9 (folic acid, folate)
            Vitamin B12 (cobalamin)
            Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
            Vitamin E (tocopherol)
            Vitamin K (naphthoquinones)
            Choline (vitamin Bp) [1,2,3]

            Minerals

            Calcium
            Chloride
            Chromium
            Copper
            Iodine
            Iron
            Magnesium
            Manganese
            Molybdenum
            Phosphorus
            Potassium
            Selenium
            Sodium
            Zinc

            Amino acids

            Isoleucine
            Histidine
            Leucine
            Lysine
            Methionine
            Phenylalanine
            Tryptophan
            Threonine
            Valine

            Fatty acids

            Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA)
            Linoleic acid

            Conditionally Essential Nutrients

            Conditionally essential nutrients can be produced in your body, but in certain circumstances, like a severe disease or infancy, you may need to obtain additional amounts from foods. The following nutrients are considered conditionally essential by some, but not all, researchers:

            Vitamin D (vitamin D2 or ergocalciferol, and vitamin D3 or cholecalciferol)
            Amino acids: arginine, cysteine, glutamine, glycine, ornithine, proline, serine , taurine [7,8] and tyrosine [4]
            Lutein and zeaxanthin [5]
            Betaine [6]

    1. Hi Deb,

      I’m for reducing sodium to healthy levels, like Dr Gregory recommends and based on the studies I saw so far.

      Also based on the science and studies known to me, I think that the sodium: potassium ratio is more key to overall health. That’s what we really want to improve for better health.

      https://www.cdc.gov/salt/potassium.htm

      https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/potassium_and_sodium_out_of_balance

      If you are already eating a lot of fruits, concentrate on lowering salt. If you don’t eat lots of fruits, like 98% of Americans, increase fruits and lower salt.

      It’s a pity that people only hear about salt when it comes to blood pressure. A huge studie by the Gates foundation concluded that “not enough fruits” are the biggest health risk today, not salt or other issues.

      Dr Gregory has a video on this:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/02/02/the-number-one-global-diet-risk/

      Even most people on a WPBD don’t eat enough fruits imo. People on a SAD diet need to hear about potassium and fruits (again and again and again).

      1. Sorry for the spelling and grammar mistakes. Smartphones…

        Also, bear in mind that Dr MacDougle doesn’t say “ignore salt”. He gives advice how to easily lower it so that you don’t have to worry too much. Eg don’t cook with it. Only add it typically…

  12. Originally posted in wrong area so re-posting here:
    —————————————————————————————————————-

    **Please disregard my request for DV on nutrients.**

    I have just been reminded that I once wrote Dr. Greger, talking about being concerned I wasn’t getting enough of the right stuff being so new to the WFPB way.

    I explained my diet to him, and what I was doing along with his daily dozen. I cant believe I forgot this, but perhaps it was because I received so short a response.

    After all my explanation about activities and concerns (and, ironically, how I’d scoured his site for this same list Ive just now asked everyone for above), he wrote me back and said, only:

    “Just make sure to take your B-12”

    Big things come in small packages sometimes.

    I do take my B-12, and the only deficiency I’ve shown is super low Vitamin D. (way lower than my doc allows)

      1. @Barb!

        YOU GOT IT!!!! Thanks!! exactly what I wanted. You are awesome, and you obviously have great reading comprehension.

        Now, a question or two.

        First: I didn’t see any download “with” the daily dozen app. Or did you mean a free download “of” the daily dozen app.

        Actually I didn’t see the download possibility there, but I do have the app already, and am going back to using it again since I was on auto pilot for a while and feel I may have swerved.

        Another question is about his reccos on that page, regarding what to pay “special attention to”. Are we all of the mind that these things are already taken care of in the daily dozen PLUS the 21 tweaks?

        Bonus share:
        I found out that my Braggs Nutritional Yeast, which daily dozen recommends, and which I put on all my salads, (2x daily) has 470% of DV of B12, 500% riboflavin, 420% thiamin, 160% Niacin, 140% folate!

        In terms of bioavailibility, does this mean I’m good on B12 and need not take my sublingual?? (I’ve felt less than thrilled about it, and heard some stories about ill effects, so this would be a good thing to trash if possible)

        Thankful for this site and the information I get here.

        1. jb, yes, I meant you could download the app… sorry I wasn’t clear. I myself haven’t tried it, but I do have a printout of the daily dozen in the kitchen for reference.

          It’s my understanding that the b12 in nutritional yeast is added, which is fine of course. Many people enjoy using it in making a variety of dishes, and that amount of b12 has you covered. No need to double up with supplements unless advised by the doc. I would suggest getting your b12 tested when you are going in for your blood tests. Keep your unused supplements until you have been tested. I routinely have blood tests every 6 months, and b12 is among them. My b12 was high so I took none for 6 months except the tiny amount in soy milk. Now my levels are good and I only take a fraction of a pill every couple of days.

          I don’t do Dr Greger’s 21 tweaks but I do my own. One of them is, don’t worry! Keep it simple. The Okinawans didnt do the Daily Dozen, nor the 21 tweaks, but they lived long, enjoyable, active lives. That’s what matters.

        2. ‘In terms of bioavailibility, does this mean I’m good on B12 and need not take my sublingual??’

          It may depend on how old you are, any medical conditions you may have and any medications you may be taking since some drugs deplete B12 levels. I would suggest reading the NIH fact sheet on B12.
          https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/

          To be on the safe side, Dr G recommends

          ‘. At least 2,000 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin once each week, ideally as a chewable, sublingual, or liquid supplement taken on an empty stomach
          or at least 50 mcg daily of supplemental cyanocobalamin (you needn’t worry about taking too much)
          or servings of B12-fortified foods three times a day (at each meal), each containing at least 190% of the Daily Value listed on the nutrition facts label
          (based on the new labeling mandated to start January 1, 2020—the target is 4.5 mcg three times a day).
          Those over 65 years of age should take at least 1,000 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin every day.
          Tip: If experiencing deficiency symptoms, the best test is a urine MMA (not serum B12 level)’
          https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/

          For an extensive ‘second opinion’, Jack Norris RD has recently updated his B12 pages eg
          https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/
          https://veganhealth.org/explanation-of-vitamin-b12-recommendations/

          1. Fumbles, thank you. @ 470% DV, and doing that twice a day, it seems like its enough even if I am 100 years old, but not sure till I put it to the test.

            My B12 came back stellar, but Vitamin D is dangerously low…

            (No dairy, but I do get some sun… weird..)

  13. Personally I love the way Dr. Greger presents, he’s really fun to watch and the videos are always so informative. The cliffhangers are driving me a little nuts, but I will keep checking back for more info. I really appreciate all the work that goes into these videos. Huge fan of the podcast too!

    1. Cheannel,

      The cliffhangers driving people a little crazy is important feedback for Dr Greger and the video team. He is frustrating people with too many.

      He has to make decisions between video length, cutting information out, and series length.

      I appreciated the number of topics he covered in this particular series because this is one of the most important topics to people who go vegan.

      But I signed up for the webinar so I didn’t have to wait for the answers.

      I recommend the webinars highly.

  14. The Japanese people having fewer strokes switching to meat and dairy diet and the whole vegan stroke topic will be the topics that show me that the science can look like that without being faked and without being a competing theory.

    I don’t know if I can word my thoughts on it but this is the study that drew me in the first place and it is the study that will help me understand studies.

    Going to PubMed directly you get opposing theories and it is easy to disregard studies or to be suspicious of them and to feel manipulated by people manipulating statistics.

    When Mic the vegan took on the BBC article about the EPIC Oxford study, he brought up pretty good arguments but it is easy as a vegan to feel protected by the superhero fruits and vegetables and to not think you have risks.

    If Dr Greger’s voice hadn’t been added in way back when, I could have come to EPIC Oxford and switched off vegan.

    Or put my head in the sand that the data had to be skewed.

    Anyway, EPIC Oxford plus Japan is going to be the thing that helps me more than anything.

    1. Deb,
      I thought I saw Mic The Vegan say that Esselystyn’s heart patient studies will be done again. Dr. Ess came up with a heart health regimin that seems unbeatable.

      1. Dan C, I agree that if heart disease/diabetes is your concern, the Esselstyn diet is the way to go. He feels that diet is the most important factor in CVD prevention/reversal so he does not delve into the additional factors in the Medicare-approved Ornish program, which adds additional layers of exercise, stress reduction and social connections.

        Quest purchased ClevelandHeartLab and so now all their advanced heart health tests are widely available. The cost may be covered depending on your insurer’s policy. Mine covered all testing; other insurers may say that the outcome of the tests won’t change the treatment plan (presumably statins) or that you are not at risk of heart disease in the first place, so the tests are not medically necessary. They cost about $50 each if you have no insurance, and probably somewhat less if your insurer does not cover the cost but has negotiated a discount with Quest. For me, the tests identified what is abnormal and I am on my own to research what to do about it, and to convince my cardiologist to order the follow up tests to track success with lifestyle change.

        Based on three comments by people responding to this video series, I am no longer concerned about stroke risk. First, someone pointed out that the very large study of Buddhist vegetarians (likely mostly vegans, since many Buddhists also avoid eggs and dairy products) in Taiwan showed that Taiwanese Buddhist vegetarians/vegans had a substantially reduced risk of both kinds of stroke compared to the meat eaters, even after adjusting for their lower blood pressure. And someone pointed out that adjusting for lower blood pressure, which is lower largely because of their diet, may be inappropriate. Finally, someone pointed out that the traditional Japanese diet was incredibly high in sodium, since high salt dishes were necessary as a method of food preservation prior to the advent of refrigeration. Thus sodium in the diet decreased with a Western diet due to the availability of frozen and refrigerated items and the Japanese government’s successful messaging about the dangers of consuming excessive amounts of sodium. The lower stroke risk was likely largely due to lower blood pressure from consuming less sodium, not the addition of meat and processed food to the diet.

        As for the people who object to Dr. McDougall’s advice regarding using high sodium items like soy sauce and miso in preparing your meals, perhaps those people are already consuming a lot of sodium in restaurant meals or prepared foods. If you are truly preparing WFPB food from scratch, you need to add some sodium, and if you sweat a lot from either living in a hot climate or exercising, you need to replenish the lost sodium. Moreover, I am in the camp that believes that the more important measure is not the amount of sodium you consume, but rather the ratio of potassium to sodium. So I would not personally worry about either miso or soy sauce.

        I do encourage everyone who can afford the cost of about $100 to have their DNA sequenced and then have the raw data analyzed by promethease.com. They are very good about categorizing the severity of health consequences associated with your gene variants, and as I recall there are references to journal articles and a short summary for most of the major gene variants. Their caveat though is that environment and lifestyle are more important than the gene variants in determining whether you develop one of these health issues. So if, for example, the result shows hereditary thrombophilia as one of your gene variants, you need to be sure to take appropriate precautions on long plane flights, auto trips, or even a long day at the office, and be clear on the warning signs for DVT and PE. If you don’t have the gene variant, you need not be so concerned. The FDA limits how much information the genealogy companies can give you; promethease.com offers a much more comprehensive analysis.

  15. Caroline,
    Thanks for all the information. I will read through again in the morning. I do not get tested for anything. After the Covid 19 virus wanes, maybe I will. I think my cardio is good but maybe my arthritis won’t let me run like I used to. Not that I am complaining too much. I stretch out every morning on an abandoned bridge and then try to run the length of the bridge three times with walk laps between. Yesterday morning went great. I also run up a hill three times with a very short break between intervals. I’m not on any drugs and exercise is the best I know to do for arthritis. At age 60 maybe I should be grateful. If I would add something, I would walk more. My diet is WFPB vegan and I supplement Vitamin D & B–12.

  16. The meat industry is always on the lookout for cherry-picking the data, so it may seem it’s beneficial to eat meat. But if you look at all the facts instead of the screaming headlines it’s clear once again.

  17. I learn a lot with every video. I learned that not everything was kosher about the traditional Japanese diet. I really want to watch my salt intake.

  18. I very much enjoy this series of videos. It seems like you can really go into detail for every single factor and you also get to discuss the other side of the argument, which is quite nice!

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