Do Vegetarians Really Have Higher Stroke Risk?

Do Vegetarians Really Have Higher Stroke Risk?
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The first study in history on the incidence of stroke of vegetarians and vegans suggests they may be at higher risk.

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Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

When ranked in order of importance, among the interventions available to prevent stroke, the three most important are probably diet, smoking cessation, and blood pressure control. Most of us are doing pretty good on smoking these days, less than half of us are exercising enough, but according to the American Heart Association, only one in a thousand Americans are eating a healthy diet, and fewer than one in 10 are even eating a moderately-healthy diet. Why does it matter? Because diet is an important part of stroke prevention. Reducing sodium intake, avoiding egg yolks, limiting the intake of meat, and increasing the intake of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and lentils. Like the sugar industry, the meat and egg industries spend hundreds of millions of dollars on propaganda––unfortunately, with great success. I was excited to check out box number 1, and was then honored when I did.

The strongest evidence for stroke protection is for increasing fruit and vegetable intake, with more uncertainty regarding the role of whole grains, animal products, and dietary patterns such as vegetarian diets. I mean, one would expect they’d do great. Meta-analyses have found that vegetarian diets lower cholesterol and blood pressure, and enhance weight loss and blood sugar control, and vegan diets may work even better. So, all the key biomarkers are going in the right direction. But you may be surprised to learn that there hadn’t ever been any studies on the incidence of stroke in vegetarians and vegans…until, now. And if you think that is surprising, wait until you hear the results.

The risks of heart disease and stroke in meat-eaters, fish-eaters, and vegetarians over 18 years of follow-up. Yes, less heart disease among vegetarians (by which they mean vegetarians and vegans combined); no surprise—been there, done that––but more stroke.

An understandable knee-jerk reaction might be: “Wait a second, who did this study?” But this is EPIC-Oxford, world-class researchers whose conflicts of interest may be more likely to read “I was a member of the Vegan Society.”

What about overadjustment? If you crunch the numbers over a 10-year-period, they found 15 strokes for every thousand meat-eaters, compared to only nine strokes for every thousand vegetarians and vegans. Wait; so how can they say there were more strokes in the vegetarians? This was after adjusting for a variety of factors. For example, the vegetarians were less likely to smoke. So, you want to cancel that out by adjusting for smoking, so that you can effectively compare the stroke risk of nonsmoking vegetarians to nonsmoking meat-eaters. If you want to know how a vegetarian diet itself affects stroke rates, you want to cancel out these non-diet-related factors. Sometimes, though, you can overadjust. The sugar industry does it all the time.

This is how it works. Imagine you just got a grant from the soda industry to study the effect of soda on the childhood obesity epidemic. What could you possibly do after putting all the studies together to arrive at the conclusion that there was near zero effect of sugary beverage consumption on body weight? Well, since you know that drinking liquid candy can lead to excess calories that can lead to obesity, if you control for calories, if you control for a factor that’s in the causal chain, effectively only comparing soda drinkers who take in the same number of calories as non-soda-drinkers, then you could undermine the soda-to-obesity effect––and that’s exactly what they did. That introduces overadjustment bias. Instead of just controlling for some unrelated factor, you control for an intermediate variable on the cause-and-effect pathway between exposure and outcome.

Overadjustment is how meat- and dairy-industry funded researchers have been accused of obscuring the true association between saturated fat and cardiovascular disease. We know that saturated fat increases cholesterol, which increases heart disease risk. Therefore, if you control for cholesterol, effectively only comparing saturated fat eaters with the same cholesterol levels as non-saturated-fat eaters could undermine the saturated fat-to-heart disease effect.

So, now let’s get back to this. Since vegetarian eating lowers blood pressure, and a lowered blood pressure leads to less stroke, controlling for blood pressure would be an overadjustment, effectively only comparing vegetarians to meat-eaters with the same low blood pressure. That’s not fair, since that’s one of the benefits of vegetarian eating, not some unrelated factor like smoking. And so, it would undermine the afforded protection. So, did they do that? No. They only adjusted for unrelated factors, like education, and socioeconomic class, and smoking, and exercise, and alcohol. That’s what you want. You want to tease out the effects of a vegetarian diet on stroke risk; you want to try to equalize everything else to tease out the effects of just the dietary choice. And since, for example, meat-eaters in the study were on average 10 years older than the vegetarians, you can totally see how when you adjust for that, vegetarians could come out worse. Since stroke risk can increase exponentially with age, you can see how having nine strokes among a thousand vegetarians in their 40s really could be worse than 15 strokes among a thousand meat-eaters in their 50s.

The fact that vegetarians had greater stroke risk despite their lower blood pressure suggests there’s something about meat-free diets that so increases stroke risk it’s enough to cancel out the blood pressure benefits. But even if that’s true, you still might want to eat that way. Stroke is our fifth leading cause of death, whereas heart disease is #1. So, yes, in this study, there were this many more cases of stroke in vegetarians. But there were this many fewer cases of heart disease. But if there is something increasing stroke risk in vegetarians; it would be nice to know what it is, in hopes of figuring out how to get the best of both worlds. This is the question we will turn to, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

When ranked in order of importance, among the interventions available to prevent stroke, the three most important are probably diet, smoking cessation, and blood pressure control. Most of us are doing pretty good on smoking these days, less than half of us are exercising enough, but according to the American Heart Association, only one in a thousand Americans are eating a healthy diet, and fewer than one in 10 are even eating a moderately-healthy diet. Why does it matter? Because diet is an important part of stroke prevention. Reducing sodium intake, avoiding egg yolks, limiting the intake of meat, and increasing the intake of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and lentils. Like the sugar industry, the meat and egg industries spend hundreds of millions of dollars on propaganda––unfortunately, with great success. I was excited to check out box number 1, and was then honored when I did.

The strongest evidence for stroke protection is for increasing fruit and vegetable intake, with more uncertainty regarding the role of whole grains, animal products, and dietary patterns such as vegetarian diets. I mean, one would expect they’d do great. Meta-analyses have found that vegetarian diets lower cholesterol and blood pressure, and enhance weight loss and blood sugar control, and vegan diets may work even better. So, all the key biomarkers are going in the right direction. But you may be surprised to learn that there hadn’t ever been any studies on the incidence of stroke in vegetarians and vegans…until, now. And if you think that is surprising, wait until you hear the results.

The risks of heart disease and stroke in meat-eaters, fish-eaters, and vegetarians over 18 years of follow-up. Yes, less heart disease among vegetarians (by which they mean vegetarians and vegans combined); no surprise—been there, done that––but more stroke.

An understandable knee-jerk reaction might be: “Wait a second, who did this study?” But this is EPIC-Oxford, world-class researchers whose conflicts of interest may be more likely to read “I was a member of the Vegan Society.”

What about overadjustment? If you crunch the numbers over a 10-year-period, they found 15 strokes for every thousand meat-eaters, compared to only nine strokes for every thousand vegetarians and vegans. Wait; so how can they say there were more strokes in the vegetarians? This was after adjusting for a variety of factors. For example, the vegetarians were less likely to smoke. So, you want to cancel that out by adjusting for smoking, so that you can effectively compare the stroke risk of nonsmoking vegetarians to nonsmoking meat-eaters. If you want to know how a vegetarian diet itself affects stroke rates, you want to cancel out these non-diet-related factors. Sometimes, though, you can overadjust. The sugar industry does it all the time.

This is how it works. Imagine you just got a grant from the soda industry to study the effect of soda on the childhood obesity epidemic. What could you possibly do after putting all the studies together to arrive at the conclusion that there was near zero effect of sugary beverage consumption on body weight? Well, since you know that drinking liquid candy can lead to excess calories that can lead to obesity, if you control for calories, if you control for a factor that’s in the causal chain, effectively only comparing soda drinkers who take in the same number of calories as non-soda-drinkers, then you could undermine the soda-to-obesity effect––and that’s exactly what they did. That introduces overadjustment bias. Instead of just controlling for some unrelated factor, you control for an intermediate variable on the cause-and-effect pathway between exposure and outcome.

Overadjustment is how meat- and dairy-industry funded researchers have been accused of obscuring the true association between saturated fat and cardiovascular disease. We know that saturated fat increases cholesterol, which increases heart disease risk. Therefore, if you control for cholesterol, effectively only comparing saturated fat eaters with the same cholesterol levels as non-saturated-fat eaters could undermine the saturated fat-to-heart disease effect.

So, now let’s get back to this. Since vegetarian eating lowers blood pressure, and a lowered blood pressure leads to less stroke, controlling for blood pressure would be an overadjustment, effectively only comparing vegetarians to meat-eaters with the same low blood pressure. That’s not fair, since that’s one of the benefits of vegetarian eating, not some unrelated factor like smoking. And so, it would undermine the afforded protection. So, did they do that? No. They only adjusted for unrelated factors, like education, and socioeconomic class, and smoking, and exercise, and alcohol. That’s what you want. You want to tease out the effects of a vegetarian diet on stroke risk; you want to try to equalize everything else to tease out the effects of just the dietary choice. And since, for example, meat-eaters in the study were on average 10 years older than the vegetarians, you can totally see how when you adjust for that, vegetarians could come out worse. Since stroke risk can increase exponentially with age, you can see how having nine strokes among a thousand vegetarians in their 40s really could be worse than 15 strokes among a thousand meat-eaters in their 50s.

The fact that vegetarians had greater stroke risk despite their lower blood pressure suggests there’s something about meat-free diets that so increases stroke risk it’s enough to cancel out the blood pressure benefits. But even if that’s true, you still might want to eat that way. Stroke is our fifth leading cause of death, whereas heart disease is #1. So, yes, in this study, there were this many more cases of stroke in vegetarians. But there were this many fewer cases of heart disease. But if there is something increasing stroke risk in vegetarians; it would be nice to know what it is, in hopes of figuring out how to get the best of both worlds. This is the question we will turn to, next.

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Video production by Glass Entertainment

Motion graphics by Avocado Video

Doctor's Note

I called it 17 years ago. There’s an old video of me on YouTube (you can tell it’s from 2003 by both my cutting-edge use of advanced whiteboard technology, and the fact that I had hair :) where I air my concerns about stroke risk in vegetarians and vegans. The good news is that I think there’s an easy fix.

This is the third in a 12-part video series on stroke risk. Here are links to the rest of the videos:

If you don’t want to wait for these to all be rolled out here on NutritionFacts.org, and want to just skip to the thrilling conclusion (*spoiler alert*), all these videos are all available on a digital download here.

If you haven’t yet, you can subscribe to my videos for free by clicking here.

167 responses to “Do Vegetarians Really Have Higher Stroke Risk?

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        1. It is coming.

          I may be quieter over the next week with no power.

          The police said that it will take at least 5 days.

          I do have a few power banks, but my generator didn’t work and my brothers could fix it but the places that sell parts are closed with no power.

          I had looked at the solar power ones, but they cost 3 times more than my old one And the power usually goes out in Winter and we don’t have good sun, so I let myself be unprepared.

          Live and learn.

          I have plenty of light and water and food and cooling towels and I can recharge my phone a few times.

          My coworker said to go get a car charger and charge up my power back ups while staying cool in the car and get a USB fan to blow on my cooling towel blanket.

          No matter what, I am okay, but internet only works in towns where there is power so I just say that I love the stroke series.

          Stay safe everyone.

          1. Deb,
            The news coverage shows lots of devastation. Power in five days sounds doable. Glad you have light, water and food and that you are okay.

            1. Thanks Dan!

              Last time this happened the projected 5 days turned out to be 11 days but that was a winter storm and they had to deal with snow and ice along with people being cold.

              I had a generator that time and my brother took his 4 wheel drive to pick up fuel.

              We are so spoiled in the USA.

              I looked at the foods I had on hand that didn’t need cooking and my house is so well-inslated that it takes most of the day for the heat to get in.

              I have barely felt the slightest bit uncomfortable and the Unicef families are watching their children starve to death and they don’t have shelter from the heat or cell phones and power banks or cars with air conditioning.

              I am blessed beyond so much of the world and pray mostly that those who are desperate can be blessed.

              I am disappointed that I will lose a lot of my food because I only have a 24-hour cooler.

              I will get solar power some day.

              I have always spent so little I. Electricity that it was never worth it but they are getting better materials for solar power and they say prices are starting to come down.

              I like the concept of solar but when my neighbors got it the cost was $10,000 and a lien on the house and an increase risk of fire and the increase in insurance erased the benefit, but if the new generations are much more efficient and safer and cheaper they will get my attention.

      1. It’s $20

        We are in the midst of a financially straining pandemic….and more locally a week long black out from a hurricane. I threw out over $300 worth of food and have spent countless hours looking for ice for a small cooler. Stores and restaurants are closed, roads are blocked with trees and power lines (fires) , and if you can find a gas station with gas ….it can be an hour wait (if you don’t run out of gas trying to find a gas station. I’ll probably have a stroke as my blood pressure must be through the roof from dealing with a crowded laundromat far away from home. Oh…dishes piled in sink and no hot water for a shower.

    1. Someone has probably already asked this, but what is meant by “healthy diet”? “One in a thousand Americans are eating a healthy diet.” These findings really need greater context.

      1. According to the article referenced, which is available in the Sources Cited section below the video, it appears to be a diet high in fruits, grains, legumes, and vegetables and low in processed foods such as animal products and salt.

        “Reducing sodium intake, avoiding egg yolks, limiting the intake of animal flesh (particularly red meat), and increasing the intake of whole grains, fruits, vegetables and lentils would contribute importantly to reversing the trend to increased cardiovascular risk…”

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6047334/

    1. I am thinking homocysteine may be the culprit. Elevated blood homocysteine concentration increases the risk of stroke, especially among hypertensive individuals.
      Folic acid-B6-B12 supplementation is commonly used to lower levels.

      1. If you are over 50, your doctor should order a blood test to monitor B12 levels; note that most supplements have much more than needed.
        Consumerlab: Taking some B-12 is advisable for people over the age of 50 (when you’re less able to extract B-12 from food), as well as for those taking medications that interfere with B-12 absorption (such as Prevacid, Prilosec and metformin), strict vegetarians, alcohol and drug abusers, people recovering from surgery or burns, and those with bowel or pancreatic cancer. But the amount needed to avoid deficiency is small and nowhere near the amount in many supplements. Typically, people are not considered B12 deficient until levels go below 200 pg/mL, although older adults may have symptoms at blood levels of 200 to 500 pg/mL. It is medically recommended that people over age 50 get at least 2.4 mcg of B12 daily from supplements or foods fortified with B12. 

        1. According to the US National Institutes of Health

          ‘Atrophic gastritis, a condition affecting 10%–30% of older adults, decreases secretion of hydrochloric acid in the stomach, resulting in decreased absorption of vitamin B12 [5,11,36-40]. Decreased hydrochloric acid levels might also increase the growth of normal intestinal bacteria that use vitamin B12, further reducing the amount of vitamin B12 available to the body [41].

          Individuals with atrophic gastritis are unable to absorb the vitamin B12 that is naturally present in food. Most, however, can absorb the synthetic vitamin B12 added to fortified foods and dietary supplements. As a result, the IOM recommends that adults older than 50 years obtain most of their vitamin B12 from vitamin supplements or fortified foods [5]. However, some elderly patients with atrophic gastritis require doses much higher than the RDA to avoid subclinical deficiency [42].”
          https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-HealthProfessional/

          This is one of the reasons why Dr Greger recommends

          ‘At least 2,000 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin once each week, ideally as a chewable, sublingual, or liquid supplement taken on an empty stomach
          or at least 50 mcg daily of supplemental cyanocobalamin (you needn’t worry about taking too much)
          or servings of B12-fortified foods three times a day (at each meal), each containing at least 190% of the Daily Value listed on the nutrition facts label (based on the new labeling mandated to start January 1, 2020—the target is 4.5 mcg three times a day).
          Those over 65 years of age should take at least 1,000 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin every day.
          Tip: If experiencing deficiency symptoms, the best test is a urine MMA (not serum B12 level)’
          https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/

  1. A more recent study (published in March 2020) found that ‘vegetarians (vs nonvegetarians) had only about half of the risk of overall stroke throughout various models’. In this study, vegetarians were actually slightly older than non-vegetarians.

    It speculated

    ‘The strong inverse association between vegetarian diet and hemorrhagic stroke in our study contrasts the results of the recently published EPIC-Oxford study.36 Buddhist vegetarians in our population and the EPIC-Oxford vegetarians differ in alcohol consumption and use of allium vegetables. Nearly 80% of vegetarians in the EPIC-Oxford study drink varying degrees of alcohol but most participants in our studies avoid alcohol (about 6% of nonvegetarians and fewer than 1% of vegetarians were current drinkers at baseline). Alcohol consumption (as measured by γ-glutamyl transferase) has been suggested in a previous cohort study to modify the effect of low serum cholesterol (typical of vegetarians) on hemorrhagic stroke risk.37 The EPIC-CVD case cohort study also found a clear trend between increased alcohol consumption and stroke risk.38 While Western vegetarians use ample amounts of garlic and other allium vegetables, Asian Buddhist vegetarians avoid these vegetables. Allium vegetables are major sources of alliin/allicin, known to inhibit platelet function and induce bleeding.39 Whether these differences drive the discrepant findings warrants further investigation.’
    https://n.neurology.org/content/94/11/e1112

    1. The EPIC-Oxford vegetarians ate a standard Western diet pretty much identical to that of the meat eaters, except that they substituted generous amounts of high fat dairy and nuts/nut butters for the meat. I would imagine that the Asian Buddhist vegetarians ate a diet closer to WFPB.

    2. Dear Mr. F-fingers –
      The paragraph you quote specifically relates to hemorrhagic stroke, not overall stroke incidence. There are a variety of stroke causes, hemorrhagic being one (where the vein or artery blows out and bleeds into the brain, a bit like a bicycle tire blowout). Other types of strokes are ischemic where blood flow to the brain down stream of a clot causes damage. Both are strokes but completely different causes. Cryptogenic strokes occur with no clearly delineated cause. One may also have a AVM stroke – atrioventricular malformation – which is a stroke rising out of a congenital malformation of the blood vessels in the brain and are particularly dangerous.
      Thick, fat-laden blood is highly correlated with ischemic (clot) strokes and diet clearly affects and improves one’s blood consistency when fat, particularly saturated fat, is removed from the diet. The thin, structurally deficient walls of an AVM are built into that particular malformation of the brain’s blood vessels. Having spent a career in clinical neurorehabilitation I’ve seen it all. A WFPB diet is the tool I’m using to protect myself as best I can against the ravages of this insidious constellation of events.

      1. Yes, it specifically relates to haemorrhagic stroke because the EPIC Oxford study found the higher rates of stroke in vegetarians was primarily due to increased haemorrhagic stroke incidence.

          1. Look at at the Taiwanese study discussed earlier in the thread. There, vegetarains had lower rates of haemorrhagic stroke too.

              1. ‘The strong inverse association between vegetarian diet and hemorrhagic stroke in our study contrasts the results of the recently published EPIC-Oxford study.36 Buddhist vegetarians in our population and the EPIC-Oxford vegetarians differ in alcohol consumption and use of allium vegetables. Nearly 80% of vegetarians in the EPIC-Oxford study drink varying degrees of alcohol but most participants in our studies avoid alcohol (about 6% of nonvegetarians and fewer than 1% of vegetarians were current drinkers at baseline). Alcohol consumption (as measured by γ-glutamyl transferase) has been suggested in a previous cohort study to modify the effect of low serum cholesterol (typical of vegetarians) on hemorrhagic stroke risk.37 The EPIC-CVD case cohort study also found a clear trend between increased alcohol consumption and stroke risk.38 While Western vegetarians use ample amounts of garlic and other allium vegetables, Asian Buddhist vegetarians avoid these vegetables. Allium vegetables are major sources of alliin/allicin, known to inhibit platelet function and induce bleeding.39 Whether these differences drive the discrepant findings warrants further investigation.’
                https://n.neurology.org/content/94/11/e1112

          2. Don’t eat an unhealthy (high fat, high saturated fat, low fiber, high sugar/refined carbs, high sodium) vegetarian diet, which is what the EPIC-Oxford vegetarians consumed. In addition to having an unhealthy vegetarian diet, ten percent of the vegetarians were smokers.

    3. Tom,

      That is interesting.

      The alcohol and cholesterol part is interesting.

      The garlic part, I understand the logic but it feels more confusing.

  2. The research study listed first in the references is really puzzling to me.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6047334/

    It lists “high intake of olive and canola oil” as one of the dietary recommendations. See quote below:

    “Box 2
    Dietary recommendations for patients at risk of stroke

    No egg yolks: use egg whites, egg beaters, egg creations or similar substitutes.

    Flesh of any animal: a serving the size of the palm of the hand or less, ~every other day (or half that daily).

    Seldom red meat, mainly fish and chicken.

    High intake of olive oil and canola oil.

    Only whole grains.

    High intake of vegetables, fruit and legumes.

    Avoid deep-fried foods and hydrogenated oils (trans fats).

    Avoid sugar and refined grains, and limit potatoes.”

    Furthermore, another interesting table in the paper shows the Mediterranean diet (Crete) which is described as a high fat, low carb diet with 40% of calories from fat, but has very low coronary heart disease. A little puzzling to me.

    I’m sticking with my mix of the daily dozen and traditional Okinawan diet with low fat and a lot sweet potatoes!

    1. The author’s recommendations are based on a belief that the Mediterranean diet is high in monounsaturated fat (courtesy of olive oil) and that it is better than a low fat diet for preventing CVD.

      This seems a bit naive to me since a high MUFA diet has been observed to be associated with stroke risk in at least one study.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3743322/

      Also, I think the presumed superiority of a Mediterranean diet over a low fat diet is based on the PREDIMED study where the control group ate less fat but also ate significantly less fibre than the olive oil and nut groups. And possibly the Lyon diet heart trial which compared a Mediterranean diet to a ‘prudent’ AHA low fat diet. However, it turned out that the low fat control group were actually consuming more fat than the Mediterranean diet group
      https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa1200303/suppl_file/nejmoa1200303_appendix.pdf
      https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.cir.99.6.779?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed

      Dr Greger has a number of informative videos on the Mediterranean diet claimed advantages in lowering CVD risk
      https://nutritionfacts.org/?s=mediterranean

      1. It’s perhaps worth adding that in the Taiwanese study referred to previously, vegetarians ate less monounsaturated fat (MUFA) and less total fat but ate more fibre than non vegetarians ……………… and had only about half the stroke risk of non vegetarians eating higher levels of MUFA.

        https://n.neurology.org/content/94/11/e1112

    2. “Furthermore, another interesting table in the paper shows the Mediterranean diet (Crete) which is described as a high fat, low carb diet with 40% of calories from fat, but has very low coronary heart disease. A little puzzling to me”

      Cretans don’t get heart disease despite high-fat diet due to good genes.

        1. A little input here from personal experience: if your stroke was in the morning, have yourself checked for sleep apnea. You would be surprised how many older people have strokes in the AM and have never been checked for this major risk factor for strokes. Do so especially if you snore or sleep poorly and wake up often.

    1. It’s quite possible to be vegetarian and unhealthy. I was wondering what your fat and fiber intake was during your five vegetarian years. A friend of mine was vegetarian his entire life, but consumed large amounts of cheese. When he died at age 55 of a massive heart attack, it was not a surprise to me.

        1. Sean,

          I guess the main point is that vegans can mess up and have high sodium or high homocysteine or low Vitamjn D3 or use oil or eat vegan junk food, but meat is not protective.

    2. Sean:
      My father was a vegetarian, non-smoker, and teetotaler but died of a stroke at 71. This was a long time ago in some other country. My guess is that it was B12 deficiency. I wish I had known then what I know now. (My mother, who ate anything put in front of her and was obese, lived to be 91 and died in her sleep at home. There seems to be some randomness, probably due to genes, to health and lifespan.)

      1. George,
        My dad lived to 78; my mom to 84. Both omnivores; both had smoked, but stopped; mom didn’t exercise much; both had health interventions / operations and both had heart disease. I might guess they could have done better with diet and living habits. But, you know, age 78 and 84 ain’t too shabby. I would do well to live that long. A caveat is that dad had lung cancer that he may have been able to avoid.

      2. George,

        Yes, my family has that randomness, too.

        My 90-year-old relatives eat processed meat and cheese and McDonald and Ice cream and the fruits they eat come in the juice form.

      1. Well said Mr. F. Vegan/vegetarian vs WFPB isn’t semantics but a fundamental difference in food quality. To the point where “vegetarian studies” are entirely irrelevant in my view, but alas there are not that many studies with a true WFPB group. Not that I care personally – my own health experience on WFPB leaves absolutely no doubt about its benefits…

    3. I was a South Beach vegetarian when I had my massive heart attack 9 yrs ago, last month.

      While I cut back on eggs and dairy for the first year of rehab, I went whole-food about a year later and dropped 75 lbs. I managed to find a vegan cardiologist (only ~5 in metro Los Angeles-Orange County-San Berdu Counties) and using lifestyle & diet modification, I’m off every one of the six meds my conventional cardiologist had me on save for 81 mg of aspirin and a β-blocker at 3% of max dosage. Surviving my heart attack and learning how to tend to my body are two of the three best things that happened in my life (finding my best-wife is the third)

    4. Sean – Please see my post above, responding to Mr. F-fingers, on the variety of strokes. Diet is still your best bet to keep your health. But there are a variety of causes of strokes that one should be aware of that have nothing to do with diet.
      I hope your health continues into the positive in the future.

    5. Sean Mack,

      My brother was a vegetarian for several years; he had a heart attack. He went to eating whole plant foods — avoiding animal products as well as processed and prepared foods (he dropped dairy and eggs). He lost 70 lbs and went off allu his meds, including for type two diabetes and high cholesterol, except one for high BP, for which he now takes the lowest dose.

  3. A part from the fact that the vegetarians and vegans in the Epic-Oxford cohort were eating pretty bad plant-based diets, I think around 20 grams of fibre, and many weren’t supplementing with b12, isn’t it wrong to assume that vegetarians at an older age would necessarily have the same stroke risk of omnivores at the same age? We don’t really know if those vegetarians would have had a higher stroke risk at 50, it’s essentially speculation. We’re basically debating about something which is totally virtual and never happened in reality….

    1. Love that you brought out the fact that there are “bad” vegetarian diets. That was the first thing I thought of while watching the video. Plenty of people call themselves vegetarian, and even vegan, while consuming huge amounts of fat.

      1. This websites promote a whole food plant based diet . The basic principles of a whole-foods, plant-based diet are as follows:

        Emphasizes whole, minimally processed foods.
        Limits or avoids animal products.
        Focuses on plants, including vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, seeds and nuts, which should make up the majority of what you eat.
        Excludes refined foods, like added sugars, white flour and processed oils.
        Pays special attention to food quality, with many proponents of the WFPB diet promoting locally sourced, organic food whenever possible.

        For these reasons, this diet is often confused with vegan or vegetarian diets. Yet although similar in some ways, these diets are not the same.

      2. Well you’re still a vegetarian or a vegan if you eschew either all meat or all animal products.

        Eating large amounts of fat don’t in any way invalidate those delineations.

        It’s not healthy, but it doesn’t invalidate them.

      1. Sean, You are one data point thus no conclusions can be drawn from your case. Who’s to say that you might have had a stroke years earlier if you hadn’t been on a vegan diet?

  4. Wouldn’t it be wise for the authors to differentiate between the types of strokes the subjects experienced? In my own situation, back when I was eating an unhealthy diet, I could actually see the whitish/gray fat in my blood and my blood was viscous and very sticky. Now, having switched to a low-fat, vegan/whole foods program (x 14 years), my blood is red and quite thin. So, I’m thinking that perhaps low-fat vegetarians/vegan might suffer more bleed type strokes as opposed to clot type strokes. Also, was the study controlled to include only non-diabetic subjects? Guess I should break down and read the study before I comment any further.

      1. M85,

        Yes, I had watchedMic’s video on the topic.

        The rest of the series by Dr Greger beings up more points.

        I feel like Greger was the only one who kept going with the math and didn’t throw out the parts that might make veganism appear to have a weakness.

  5. The EPIC-Oxford study specifically found a higher rate of hemorrhagic strokes in vegetarians. Your guess about bleeding type strokes is correct.

  6. As a PhD epidemiologist who teaches, that might be one of the BEST descriptions of data adjustment and bias of over-adjustment I’ve ever heard! Well done and thank you!!

  7. It is not surprising only 1 in 1000 eat a healthy diet. We recently got back from a 10 day road trip thru eastern Oregon and Washington. I knew it was a food desert, so brought along instant refried beans, oats and plant milk to make overnight oats, high fiber whole rye bread, fruit, carrots, celery, pumpkin seed protein bars, etc. SO glad I did, as literally nothing to eat for someone who follows a WFPB diet. Those small farming towns may have three restaurants doing take out…and it is all the same crap: BBQ, burgers, fries, grilled cheese, tater tots, milkshakes, steak, etc, etc. Really sad to see, and so many obese people. I guess I live in a bubble surrounded by healthy minded people and options (Seattle Area), so very eye opening. The government needs to subsidize farmers markets, groceries, and restauranteurs in ways to increase healthy choices. If I were queen, I would mandate that any establishment serving food had at least two healthy WFPB choices per meal on the menu.

    1. Mom’s,

      That is interesting that you are in a health-conscious bubble and I have almost never even met any health-conscious people.

      One cousin but he died at age 50.

      Tonight, on the news they talked about food prices going up.

      When I had looked at the Unicef site, they talked about food prices going up while people lost their jobs as the main reason children die. They had mothers losing their breast milk. Devastating that the world is going to have inflation right now.

  8. Not to dismisss at all the value I find in your videos, but I have to say that the speed with which you delivered your talking in the last two videos was so fast that I had to backtrack several times to “get it”. Keep ’em coming!

    1. Bittersweet, I’m seeing that under the controls icon in the lower right of the video screen, you can change the playback speed. Maybe you’d like to slow the good doc’s delivery in the future :-).

      As a fast talker myself, I do appreciate your reminder to slow down!

    2. I agree completely. I adore Dr. Greger but he talks so fast and his gesticulating distracts from the content of the video. I would much prefer to just have him narrating. There is just too much coming at you with this format for a normal person to keep up. (Btw, I have been an ardent follower of Nutrition Facts for many years.

      1. This continual him in the videos even after claiming it was going to stop makes me question is everything supposed to be about him or the health topic? Do what many of us do, ignore the video and read the transcript under it. I prefer not to have to see his distraction and speed changes in stilted speech just to hear about a topic.

        1. Reality bites,

          These videos and a few more webinars we’re done before the pandemic videos.

          He did stop.

          Unfortunately, he does about a year’s worth of videos at a time, and then, he writes a book, and then he travels speaking about the book.

          You want him to re-shoot the years worth of videos.

          But he is making the next year’s worth.

          The pandemic videos we’re a hint that he did listen but those of us who watched his webinars know that there are a whole lot of Dr Greger videos to go.

          1. I think he might be in another video-preparation season.

            Maybe.

            I think next year is book writing again.

            Speaking engagements were severely disrupted.

            If anybody has a topic, now is probably the time to hint several times.

            He is so responsive to his audience, but the video lag time causes him to look like he missed the 200 ”distractibg” comments.

        2. RB

          For thousands of years, most people have considered looking a gift horse in the mouth to be bad form.

          There are laws against aggressive begging in the UK and against aggressive panhandling in the US.

          If the man wants to give information away freely, it seems a bit ungracious to complain about the particular way he chooses to do it.

      2. I agree completely. Dr. Greger’s highly animated body language is a total distraction. I don’t even watch videos any more, just listen, and later browse the sources to see if there’re any interesting review articles to read.

      3. Just read the transcripts.

        I don’t have an issue with his speaking style, and always enjoy when he comes to lecture out here on Long Island, but I can read much faster than he can speak.

        So I always start with the transcript, and if it alludes to charts or things I might need to see I’ll go back and fast-forward to the point I want to see.

        1. Laughing

          You can read much faster than Dr Greger speaks?!?!?!

          Dr Greger, note that there are more comments about how fast you speak and I think there have been 2 people who might want you to speak faster.

          Please don’t do it!

  9. Dr Greger, I learned from you that B12 with methylcobalamin could actually be harmful.
    Could you guide us as to a good choice of B12? I will chew it.
    ( I actually gave you a donation for this meeting but then couldnt find it.)
    Thank you! Florence

    1. I wasn’t aware that B12 with methylcobalamin was bad. I thought it was the preferred ingredient in B12. Could someone please help, since I am going to be starting a B12 supplement. Thank you.

      1. Ken- Please check out this link: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-vegetarians-really-have-higher-stroke-risk/#comment-611791
        Optimum Nutrition Recommendations Written By Michael Greger M.D. FACLM on September 12th, 2011 Updated 2019
        (Regarding B12)
        “At least 2,000 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin once each week, ideally as a chewable, sublingual, or liquid supplement taken on an empty stomach
        • or at least 50 mcg daily of supplemental cyanocobalamin (you needn’t worry about taking too much)”

        I’m glad to read you are starting a B12 supplement. Definitely a step towards good health!

    2. Florence,

      Check your spam emails. That has happened to a few of us.

      If you signed up for the webinar, they generally send links to download or watch the webinar after. Plus, they send the resource link.

      Trying to remember whether he called Methyl dangerous. He did show a small study where it didn’t work for vegans and it not working would be dangerous.

  10. I have a few questions about topics in the video.

    1. Do the conclusions in the video apply to stroke in general or do they apply differently to different types of stroke? (ischemic, transient ischemic, hemorrhagic)
    2. Why would vegetarians have decreased heart disease risk but increased stroke risk if stroke and heart disease are related to blood flow and could theoretically be affected by the same factors (e.g. high cholesterol)?
    3. How can B12 affect stroke risk in vegetarians?

    I was just curious about these things. I thank Dr. Greger for his excellent, lifesaving work in health and nutrition.

    1. Hi, Vinay Kalva! Thanks for your kind words, and for your interest in this subject. You raise some important questions, which will likely be covered in upcoming videos. You can view the data featured in any NutritionFacts video by clicking the “Sources Cited” link beneath the video window. This supplementary material may be of particular interest to you: https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:fe7592b6-c85c-4dbe-af3b-70a4ae17da01/download_file?file_format=pdf&safe_filename=EPIC_Oxford_Supplementary_BMJ_R5_final.pdf&type_of_work=Journal+article
      Your second question is the million dollar one. It would seem that, although heart disease and stroke are related in many ways, there must be some additional risk factor for stroke that is different from heart disease. Please check back for upcoming videos on this topic!
      With regard to your third question, this video might be of interest, in case you have not already seen it: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/vitamin-b12-necessary-for-arterial-health/
      I hope that helps!

  11. The EPIC-Oxford study is worthless information for people who follow a WFPB diet. The vegetarians in their study ate a Western diet (SAD) where meat calories were replaced with dairy. Daily intake in grams of cheese and nuts was nearly 50% higher than for the meat eaters. Not only did they consume an alarming amount of cheese, but their intake of saturated fat, total fat, fiber, sodium, sugar/unrefined carbs and alcohol differed little from that of the meat eaters.  For whatever reason, their vitamin D levels and omega-3 levels were worse than those in the meat eaters, and they also were apparently unaware that they needed to supplement with B12, since that was low too. Blood pressure was over the goal of 120 for both groups, with only a small improvement for vegetarians over meat eaters. About a tenth of each group consisted of current smokers, with vegetarians having only a slight edge in that category. So these vegetarians ate a diet far from that recommended by Ornish/Esselstyn, Greger or any other WFPB author.

    1. Yes but, despite that, the EPIC Oxford ‘vegetarians’ still had a significantly lower risk of cardiovascular disease.

      They had 10 fewer cases of ischaemic heart disease than meat eaters per 1000 population over 10 years but three more cases of total stroke per 1000 population over 10 years, mostly due to a higher rate of haemorrhagic stroke.
      https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4897

      In other words, they had 7 fewer cases overall compared to meat eaters …… but everyone bangs on about the supposed excess haemorrhagic stroke risk and completely ignores much bigger reduction in heart disease risk. Got to find some excuse or other to justify meat eating I suppose.

  12. I too have resorted to only reading the transcripts. Just too over the top but I love the info. Sent a few to my daughter and by mistake she started watching the video,,, she turned it off and questioned my sanity. I led her to the transcripts.

    1. Mark,

      I hope your daughter grows up to respect people like Dr Greger for dedicating his life to saving lives.

      Sometimes people don’t know what is truly important in life and young people tend to lack proper gratitude and sense of what is valuable.

      Dr Greger is like kale. He grows on you once you find out how healthy he is and how much benefit he adds to your life.

      1. Maybe I should have said broccoli sprouts.

        He grows on you and some silly young people go ”yuck” and others get healed of autism and maybe one of the mechanisms is that it protects their lungs from air pollution, on top of 5 other very amazing things.

        Yes, he grows on you and every 2 days there is a video harvest.

        1. (Laughing. I don’t think that the air pollution mechanism was mentioned in that special autism video. But I think it should have been based on the air pollution correlation video and the air pollution video. I think broccoli sprouts might have so many special mechanisms that people miss a few.

  13. Just a cautionary word to those consume a wfpb diet and like to supplement with spice powders, herbs, herbal teas etc…. many (if not the majority) popular herbs and spices can increase the chances of bleeding/stroke. Often we think there can be no harm in adding ‘more’ whole food derived substances in hopes of deriving some specific benefit. In the past. Dr Greger has made videos about the beneficial effects of garlic powder, turmeric, ginger, herbal teas, omega 3 etc as examples but these things can cause bleeding or clotting problems.
    ‘More’ is not always ‘better’.

    https://www.webmd.com/drug-medication/news/20090416/surgery-patients-unaware-of-herbal-risk

      1. Barb,

        That is a good concept of being tested for clotting time.

        I tend to take aspirin in the winter and holidays and when the clocks change as a way of hedging my bets from both directions.

      2. Not medical advice. Merely informational. For medical advice, please see you wise and learned locally licensed Physician.

        Barb,

        From real-life experience, I have found Clotting Time to be worse than useless as a screening measure in a health care context.

        Harmful, actually – it gives a false sense of security that you are doing well – when the results are largely meaningless.

        Proceeding on the basis of meaningless data can – and has – led to real problems.

        One of my more painful memories.

        For your reading pleasure:

        BT = Bleeding Time

        CT=Clotting Time

        “Whole blood clotting time measures the time required for formation of the first traces of thrombin sufficient to produce a visible clot. The CT is abnormal only with severe coagulation factors deficiency (as low as 10-15%). It is a poor screening test that seldom provides information not obtained by other more reliable tests. The CT test by capillary method as practised in service hospitals, is highly unreliable [1].

        These investigations (BT-CT) are not sensitive screening tests to detect haemostatic disorders [1]. Their role in preoperative screening is questionable [4, 5, 6]. Despite thousands of these tests not a single case of haemostatic disorder was detected in our hospital in preoperative workout. Informal discussions with surgeons, anaesthesiologists and pathologists revealed that in their cumulative experience of over 100 practicing years not a single asymptomatic case of haemostatic disorder was detected by BT-CT tests. More often than not, these tests are carried out as an empirical legacy, perhaps for completion of medical documents.

        Our experience and review of literature reveal that BT-CT tests do not fulfill the criteria required for screening tests. Haemostatic disorders can be easily suspected by history and clinical examination, the first step to diagnosis. A guestimate at the number of BT-CT tests performed in all service hospitals would be mind-boggling. Are we justified in such colossal waste of time, resources and effort in performing these non-contributory tests? The surgeons, anaesthesiologists and pathologists need to ponder over it. The BT-CT tests as routine blind preoperative screening, should be dispensed with. This would require change of perception and attitude. The Senior Advisers perhaps can issue suitable instructions to streamline preoperative investigations. The time and resources thus saved can be redirected to more fruitful work.”

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4925339/

        Vivamus

        1. Vivamus, thank you for your comments! The only reason why I mention it is because often people (readers of this forum and NF) will jump on a suggestion for a supplement – made of whole food or lightly processed- without considering that the reported studies are almost never done on a wfpb population, and therefore the results can be very different.

          I have chopped my daily baby aspirin in half, and I still enjoy my soups and curries, but I am still mindful of my bleeding risk. So is my doctor.

        2. This is the test I took weekly to monitor the prescribed dose of Coumadin:

          Prothrombin Time with INR – Screening test for abnormalities of coagulation factors that are involved in the extrinsic pathway. Also used to monitor effects of Warfarin therapy and to study patients with hereditary and acquired clotting disorders.

          Newer drugs for patient with blood clots don’t allow for such frequent monitoring, so my doctor preferred Coumadin.

    1. Barb,
      Good point. Thin blood may cause bleeding. It is not a blockage type of stroke though which may be more dangerous and harder to recover from. I might suspect there is an expected (normal) amount of leakage of thin blood throughout the circulation anyway. Maybe low K (clotting) level plays a role.

    2. Here is a summary from stroke.org. The factors predisposing to a bleeding stroke have little to do with how much meat is or is not in the diet, so I am not sure why the researchers decided to look for a link:

      Factors that can weaken your blood vessels and raise your risk of hemorrhagic stroke due to a ruptured blood vessel include:
      Having a vessel abnormality
      High blood pressure
      Smoking
      Sleep apnea
      Cocaine use
      Alcohol use disorder
      Trauma

      Blood disorders, medications [or spices] can make it harder for your blood to clot, and that can also increase your risk of a hemorrhagic stroke. 
      http://www.stroke.org.uk › what-is-stroke › are-you-at-risk-o…

  14. I’m fairly sure that Dr. Greger is aware that some doctors may lie. Why would they lie? Because Vegans are so much healthier than people eating meat and dairy products. So…… big so……. there is a chance doctors may lie so they don’t loose money since vegans don’t go to a doctor as much as the bad people.

      1. Duke,

        Point taken.

        Plus, Dr Greger has a video about going to the doctor where it could lead to over-diagnosis andvober-medicating.

    1. Iamthatstrange,

      Dr Greger is highly pro-vegan but he hasn’t shrunk back from the science. It takes a few videos for his math to come forth and it is worth hearing.

      Whole Food Plant-Based vegan is an excellent diet and he is not coming against it.

      Hear him out.

  15. Somebody may have mentioned this (tried to at least skim the previous comments) but I recall an ancient video by Dr. Greger that dealt with this topic and came to the conclusion that “vegetarian diets” need to be augmented re. B12 (people did mention that in the comments) AND Omega-3 (forget, but I think primarily DHA) to get the full benefit of such a diet re. reduced risk of heart disease and stroke. I hope he has time to discuss this in the next video, but that ancient video was pretty long and actually went through the physiology in a lot detail and thus actually came up with a pretty convincing causal explanation for why this is the case.

    1. I try to supplement with b12 by tablet but in the past it has irritated my bladder. Will need to have injections but my gp said my b12 was ok but i think it surely must be low.

  16. so am I to understand that my eating garlic daily can cause a stroke?? I am doing so as it supposedly helps with clogged arteries (one of the reasons I am on WFPB diet). Also, re the B12, so now looks like I am on the wrong one, seems one cannot win no matter how hard we try :(

    1. brit,
      I eat minced garlic on my baked potatoes every day. Maybe that is too much. I also munch on carrots which may improve my clotting factor.

    2. Brit.

      I want to give you an internet air hug.

      I know that it feels like you can’t win, but I promise you that if you keep listening it will get better.

      I have brain problems and felt like doctors we’re intentionally trying to tear my brain in pieces. Same with politicians.

      The good news is that there are reasons each person gave the logic and slowly you will understand it better if you allow it to take time.

      Dr Greger promotes Cyano B-12 because of a study with vegans where Methyl B-12 didn’t work.

      If it doesn’t work, vegans get high homocysteine and that increases the risk of heart attack and stroke.

      Other people promote Methyl because they are afraid of the change in Cyano, but Dr Greger isn’t afraid of it because every fruit and vegetable has cyanide and something like flaxseed has 5000 times more cyanide than Cyano. He goes into those and other arguments in his B12 webinar which is coming soon.

      1. Your doctor can order an inexpensive blood test to see if Methyl B-12 works for you. It does for me, and I probably should cut back since my B12 blood levels are at the high end of normal.

        1. Caroline, I was tested 6 mos ago and found to have high normal b12 levels too. I cut way back (1 pill cut into bits lasts 10 days or more). I get new test results tomorrow… we shall see if I need more or less.

        2. I would like to know a simple way to do our own B-12 test—smart phone app, litmus paper, reagent test. . . How reliable would this be though when commercial lab test results are all over the place.

          If our bodies metabolize and store B-12 well, there is probably no need to continually supplement with B-12.

          1. Dan, when my husband was out of work so we could not afford doctor visits, our insurance company suggested using requestatest.com to order CBC, CMP, lipid panel, and anything your doctor would normally order for you. Testing through their site for B12 and folate costs $59 at Quest labs. Labcorp is an option if Quest is not convenient for you, but the cost of some of the tests may be higher than at Quest. Quest also has all the new cardiovascular disease marker tests developed at Cleveland Heart. Those you order directly through Quest. Both tests your doctor orders through Quest and the tests you order yourself from requestatest.com show up in your online results history, as well as any tests you order directly through Quest.

          2. Dan,

            If you eat fortified foods, like Braggs Nutritional yeast you may not have to worry.

            But they have tested vegans around the world and the ones who supplement have been outcomes.

            Improved endothelial function. Lower atherosclerosis.

            People get so low in B12 that their spines rot away and people used to die from B12 deficiency.

            Dr. Greger did a spine rotting away image way back when.

            Spine rotting away was already enough.

            He also has a brain problems from being low in B12 video.

            Honestly, even without skipping, when I was on Methyl B12, I developed lesions, muscle spasms, skin problems, brain problems came back, and other things. I can’t remember offhand, but I had a whole list that I was plugging into WebMD and all of them pointed to B12 deficiency.

            I switched off of Methyl B12 and symptoms all went away. I get hallucinations when I am low in B12.

            I have a list of things that caused problems with my brain, but the fact that I hate supplements is one.

            B12 and D and Omega 3 are friends of my brain.

    3. Brit, you don’t say what you are typically eating, so I will use myself as the example. For years I have followed wfpb lifestyle, and have established a menu that pretty much incorporates Dr Greger’s Daily Dozen. I take small amounts of meds, but one of them is aspirin, a blood thinner. All good.

      The problem is that my diet is so healthy, that the blood thinning can be over done. Many foods also have this effect … green beans, tomatoes, omega 3, turmeric, ginger, garlic, cumin are just some examples. I am cooking with these herbs and spices daily, so for me to take extra as supplements would result in unwanted bruising/ bleeding. I had to stop the garlic powder because of these effects.

      Best to consult with your doctor and let them know what diet and supplements you take. Don’t take aspirin unless they suggest it for you specifically. Stopping/starting aspirin can be risky.

      1. The recommendation regarding taking daily aspirin has changed, and not all doctors are aware of this. People should not self-prescribe this medication. The danger is internal bleeding, particularly in the gut, which has no obvious symptoms, or in the brain. I have a genetic tendency to clot, and my hematologist would not let me take daily aspirin. I do use the herbs and spices that Barb suggests. Drinking plenty of water throughout the day will thin your blood with no adverse consequences.

  17. (I did laugh during the B-12 video when Dr Greger called other unnamed doctors wrong.

    Perfect word-choice to undo a YouTube moment which has long since been removed.

  18. Could you look into Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and nutrition?

    I want to ask for help about the b12 supplement I use. It has these excipients:

    calcium carbonate
    calcium hydrogen phosphate dihydrate
    crospovidone
    hypromellose
    macrogol 400
    magnesium stearate
    maltodextrin
    microcrystalline cellulose

    It has calcium (chalk) in it so I can’t take it on an empty stomach apparently. I tried it once and I regretted it. I would like to change to another supplement which has these excipients:

    citric acid
    colloidal anhydrous silica
    croscarmellose sodium
    crospovidone
    Flavour
    magnesium stearate
    mannitol
    microcrystalline cellulose
    sodium bicarbonate
    sorbitol
    xylitol

    Is this one better than the first one? What should I be looking for in a b12 supplement? I would appreciate it If anyone can recommend a better supplement.

    1. I forgot to mention something. I crush the tablet and dissolve it in my mouth. I’m having a strange feeling on my tongue like a numbness or tingling that persists. Could that be from the supplement? Can calcium do that to your mouth?

    2. Arthur.You asked about Ehlers-Danos syndrome and I found several science-based articles which may answer general questions on this condition. However only the last one addresses nutrition and basically just gives hope that a nutritional approach MIGHT work but no solid research much less recommendations about treatment.
      https://www.ehlers-danlos.com/edsdiet/q-and-a/
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124114623000205
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15607555/ A novel therapeutic strategy for Ehlers-Danlos syndrome based on nutritional supplements.
      As far as B12. Please see comments Dr. Greger made in below this link:https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/dr-gregers-2011-optimum-nutrition-recommendations/ We do not recommend specific products at this website, but you should look for a product with as few additives as possible. As an example, I looked at Amazon, doing a search (Vitamin B without additives” and found several products that had few additives; one just had the vitamin plus the capsule. Just do a little research or if you’re buying at a pharmacy, as the pharmacist to help you. To your health–.

    1. She had been talking for a while about taking a rest from NutritionFacts so I wouldn’t worry too much.

      Lonie is the one I am worrying about.

  19. My most important worker was seconds away from dying in this storm caught between 2 trees.

    And I also had 2 trees in my own yard blown down in the most mercifully possible direction as if the Holy Spirit aimed them away from damaging property.

    I had tried to get one of them cut down but the tree cutters wouldn’t do it and the other one was almost on top of my neighbors shed and pool and the deck he spent months building.

    I covered my eyes to see if that one had fallen and I looked up at the sky and the tree wasn’t there and I walked over to the edge of my neighbors property and there was no damage with either tree.

    There was only one direction those trees could fall and not do damage.

  20. My worker was seconds away from being killed twice.

    The second tree falling before he backed up.

    I am overwhelmed with gratitude.

  21. I would like to know if it is necessary to clean and activate seeds and nuts before eating. I read that cleaning nuts and seeds with an hydrogen peroxide solution for 20 minutes gets rid of mycotoxins. Then they have to be soaked in water for many hours in order to fully absorb all the nutrients. Is it true? They can then be eaten or dehydrated and stored. I haven’t heard Greger talking about this… he only talks about grinding flax seeds. I think there is lot of confusion so a video on this subject would be very much welcome!!

    1. There is no evidence that anything is required to derive the health benefits from nuts and seeds other than eating them. Hydrogen peroxide can be toxic, and we suffer from Over-nutrition, so releasing nutrients is not necessarily a good thing.

  22. Maybe Vegans have higher stroke risk because they are low in phosphorus. Phosphorus is linked to heart disease in both low and high amounts. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/heart-attacks-linked-to-low-phosphate-levels. Many people on this site said vegans can lose their hair. I think this is related to phosphorus, zinc, and Iron. Phosphorus is also related to stroke risk. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/strokeaha.116.013195 A multimineral tablet for vegans would include phosphorus, Iron, and Zinc. Did you know that Soybeans can lower blood pressure? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12097666/ If iron lowers blood pressure, and soybeans are rich in iron, and the whole food is better than the parts, then soybeans should have lots of other compounds to lower blood pressure. Soybeans lower stroke risk here. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19494552/ Maybe more than the phosphorus, iron, and zinc blood pressure lowering effects.

    1. Mathew, low dietary phosphorus is actually good, according to my vet, for preventing kidney problems. The people in the phosphorus study had advanced kidney disease, were on dialysis, and between a quarter and a third of them were diabetic as well. I would venture to say that none were on a WFPB diet, or they would not have those health issues to begin with. So I question how relevant the study is to people on this website.

      Unlike phosphorus (found in meat), soy is suggested by Ornish and Esselsyn for their heart health diets. Note that iron should be from plants. Your body cannot control absorption of heme iron (from meat) or iron from supplements (or other minerals in supplement form, for that matter). The excess iron from those two sources will build up in your organs, leading to adverse health effects, unless you have some means of regular blood loss like excessive menstrual bleeding or, as in bygone eras, bloodletting or childbirth on an annual basis.

      Articles dealing with the COVID virus do mention that many people are deficient in zinc. But again, more is not necessarily better, so watch the dose in your supplement.

  23. I am very disappointed in Dr. Greger. Since the first video on this Oxford study he has been not looking at the camera and instead fast talking gibberish to sidestep the fact that the study shows vegetarians are at more risk for strokes. Why all the 3 minutes of gibberish about how tests are skewed and biases are skewed when Greger later admits this study is not biased or skewed? Why not deal with the matter directly? Very disappointing and discrediting.

    1. Peter,

      Dr Greger does deal with the issue directly in this series.

      Plus, the fact that heart attack is the leading cause of death, and vegans have way fewer heart attacks and the fact that the EPiC-Oxford vegetarians are high sodium, low fiber and 80% drank alcohol, you are going to act like Dr Greger is covering up something while he is in the middle of exposing the truth and he was also the one who exposed it years ago.

      I am trying to figure out a polite way to say that vegans will have fewer heart attacks trumps whatever your agenda is.

    2. PK

      Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean that it is gibberish.

      A case of mouth in gear, brain in neutral perhaps?

  24. I looked up COVID and deaths went up in the USA for the 5th week in a row.

    I honestly expected deaths to drop because of the plasma And because so many children are hospitalized.

    One more 7 year old and two more teachers died since I had last checked.

    There was a daycare worker who may have gotten it from the children.

    School is going to be costly if deaths can’t be slowed down.

  25. Israel is a country that had seriously locked down and they turned on a dime when the Stanford guy started saying nobody was dying of COVID.

    They opened schools with so few cases compared to the USA and Covid spread throughout the schools and to the teachers and to the families and to other schools.

    I remember the Stanford guy talking specifically about their suddenly opening up.

    Well, they now say, “Don’t do what we just did.”

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.amp.html

      1. Deb,

        Thank you.

        That was very helpful.

        The New Hampshire contingent of our Merry Crew are doing what they can to fight their local school reopening. I have forwarded the Daily Beast (Daily Beast? – that does not sound very Whole Foods Plant Based – but that’s fine) article to them.

        Anything else you unearth that might help their position would be appreciated.

        —————————-

        You know – for someone without electricity – you are managing to be pretty productive.

        I thought we were going to get a report with you resurfacing sometime next week about the healing powers of the bucolic life – a return to nature and campfires and scenic walks and old books – the colors of the sky and the shapes of the clouds – the feel of the wind – and the pleasures of turning away from the hectic pace of the over-modern-over-connected life.

        It looks like I’m wrong, again.

        Oh, well. I’m used to it.

        Take care –

        Vivamus

      2. Israel blamed it on how lacking discipline they are as a nation.

        I can already predict that the USA would have an even less disciplined response with kids intentionally coughing.

      3. Piles can be treated with Bananas, Potatoes, Mint, the herbs stinging nettle and horsetail weed, and bran. In other words Silicon and the other nutrients in plants with it, better than just the mineral. There was a scientist who treated polio with peppermint oil. Is polio like covid? Save the backs of people with covid.

  26. I am wondering if Dr Popper will ever open her comments again if we really do get a 2nd wave in the Fall.

    She is going to write the violation of our freedoms version of a COVID-19 book and we haven’t hit the 2nd wave yet.

    1. –It can appear that Dr. Popper is overboard.
      –Unless Sars-CoV-2 didn’t come from a wet market. These markets are open again.
      –Tweety is demanding protestors be jailed for ten years.
      –Take a look at Wuhan surveillance. It knows when you are going #1 or #2 and controls your credit.
      –Are you ready for an ankle bracelet? They come in different colors :-0

  27. Her closing her comments tells me.that at some level she is insulating herself from all of the people who have lost people already.

    At some level she knows that her position is risky.

    She was willing to stand with comments open for veganism even when that has enemies.

    This is her putting her fingers in her ears.

  28. Deb,

    I had never previously heard of Pam Popper.

    I just wasted a little over ten minutes of my life listening to her Jun 30, 2020 video. I couldn’t last any further than that.

    Ten minutes of my life that I can never regain.

    Completely wasted.

    I recommend that no one else experience this – so I will not give the url.

    I feel – I feel unclean.

    I did find this – which seems consistent with what I just watched:

    “In the late 1980s, Popper convinced stockbroker Edna Norton to found a company named Redbird Central, according to a lawsuit filed later by Norton. The company’s purpose was to ensure stock sales. As a prelude to her later scraps with licensing boards, Popper falsely claimed that she had a license to sell stocks, the lawsuit says.

    Officially, Popper signed on to do telemarketing and promotions as a consultant for Redbird. In reality, she used her access to steal the company from Norton, the lawsuit alleges. Popper began spreading rumors that Norton had embezzled money and stock, and that she was about to be indicted. Popper said that Norton had emotional problems, that she had lost her stock-trader’s license, and that she would never be allowed to sell stocks again.

    None of the rumors were true, according to Norton’s suit. But they were serious enough to win employees and clients to Popper’s side. In January 1987, Popper locked Norton out of the company and took full control, even though Norton still owned 100 percent of the company. Popper kept Norton on the defensive by suing her for theft; nine months later, a judge dismissed the suit.

    Norton countersued. At trial, Popper lost. She appealed and lost again. In 1990, Popper was ordered to pay $1.1 million in damages.

    Popper maintains her innocence, blaming the entire incident on Norton. “She stole $150,000, and she only paid it back when we locked her out of the building,” says Popper.

    She also refuses to pay her court-ordered settlement. “I’ve never paid it, and I’m never going to,” she says.

    No matter who’s right, Popper’s past feeds into the state’s perception that the natural-health community is a circus of con artists. On the one hand, she’s the perfect spokeswoman — smart, well-spoken, and fearless. On the other, the allegation that she promoted herself as a licensed stockbroker drives to the heart of the current controversy, since her opponents say that she practices medicine without a license. At a hearing last month, most of her patients referred to her as “Dr. Popper.” In her frequent campaign contributions, Popper reports her occupation as “doctor” or “physician.”

    She says she’s a naturopathic doctor and received her degree from Clayton College of Natural Health, a correspondence school in Birmingham, Alabama.

    “Most people think she’s a real physician,” says Mavko.”

    https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/who-you-callin-a-quack/Content?oid=1490535

    Best regards,

    Vivamus

  29. Darwin,

    I think the way to find out about theantimalria drug and covid Will be Lupus patients and could.

    https://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/06/annrheumdis-2020-217984

    I am looking it up because I agree with you that the retrospective studies we’re so different than the studies that the only way I can double-check is that Lupus patients take it before they are exposed to COVID.

    When Trump made his first statement about it, there was a Lupus doctor in California who said that none of his Lupus patients who were on it developed symptomatic COVID versus the one patient of his who didn’t take their medicine died.

    I don’t know if I can find accurate percentages but I really am curious about whether pandemic medicine science is biased / political or not.

    I am trying to stay neutral but Lupus and places where you treat for malaria seem like the ways to double-check.

    1. Minorities are more likely to get Lupus, and people with Lupus are more likely to get infections. People from the south are more likely to have Lupus, so this summers cases should show us whether that community did better or worse this year.

      It seems like it would be interesting. Mostly, it would be a double-check that might show whether science was corrupted.

  30. I’m anxious to see what the possible cause is also. I’m going to place a wild bet on B12. Is there a link to where Dr. G. called it 17 yeas ago?

  31. Having Dr. Greger on the screen overloads the videos and makes it harder to read the graphics. I find them unwatchable now. Not to mention his herky jerky remonstrative style is irritating. Not sure why you made the switch.
    salud, b

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