How Our Gut Bacteria Can Use Eggs to Accelerate Cancer

How Our Gut Bacteria Can Use Eggs to Accelerate Cancer
4.41 (88.11%) 106 votes

The reason egg consumption is associated with elevated cancer risk may be the TMAO, considered the “smoking gun” of microbiome-disease interactions.

Discuss
Republish

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

“We are walking communities comprised not only of a Homo sapiens host, but also of trillions of symbiotic commensal microorganisms within the gut, and on every other surface of our bodies.” There are more bacterial cells in our gut than there are human cells in our entire body. In fact, only about 10% of the DNA in our body is human. The rest is in our microbiome—the microbes that we share with this walking community we call our body. What do they do?

Our “[g]ut microbiota [our gut bacteria microbiome] serve as a filter for our largest environmental exposure—what we eat. Technically speaking, food is a foreign object that we take into our bodies [by the pound] every day.” “And, the microbial community within each of us significantly influences how we experience [those meals].” “Hence, our metabolism and absorption of food occurs through [this] filter of bacteria.”

But, if we eat a lot of meat, poultry, fish, milk, cheese, eggs, we can foster the growth of bacteria that convert the choline and carnitine in these foods into TMA—trimethylamine, which can be oxidized into TMAO, and wreak havoc on our arteries, increasing our risk of heart attack, stroke, and death.

We’ve known about this troublesome transformation from choline into trimethylamine for over 40 years. But, that was way before we learned about the heart disease connection. Why were they concerned back then? Because these methylamines might form “nitrosamines [which] have marked carcinogenic activity”—cancer-causing activity.

So, where is choline found in our diet? Mostly from meat, eggs, dairy, and refined grains. The link between meat and cancer probably wouldn’t surprise anyone. In fact, just due to the industrial pollutants alone (like PCBs), children probably shouldn’t eat more than like five servings a month of meats like beef, pork, or chicken, combined. But, what about cancer and eggs?

Studies going back to the 70s hinted at a correlation between eggs and colon cancer. But, that was just based on so-called ecological data, showing that countries that ate more eggs tended to have higher cancer rates. But, that could be due to a million things, right? It needed to be put to the test.

This started in the 80s, and by the 1990s, 15 studies had been published: ten suggesting “a direct association” between egg consumption and colorectal cancer, and five showing “no association.” By 2014, there were dozens more studies published, confirming that eggs may indeed be playing a role in the development of colon cancer—though no relationship was discovered between egg consumption and the development of precancerous polyps, which suggests that “egg[s] might be involved [more] in the promotional [stage of cancer growth—accelerating cancer growth, rather than] initiating [the cancer in the first place].”

Which brings us to 2015. Maybe it’s the TMAO, made from the choline in meat and eggs, that’s promoting cancer growth. And, indeed, in the Women’s Health Initiative study, women with the highest TMAO levels in their blood “had…approximately [three] times greater risk of rectal cancer”—suggesting “TMAO [levels] may serve as a potential predictor of increased colorectal cancer risk.”

Though there may be more evidence for elevated breast cancer risk with egg consumption than prostate cancer risk, the only other study to date on TMAO and cancer looked at prostate cancer, and did, indeed, find a higher risk.

“Diet has long been considered a primary factor in health. However, with the microbiome revolution of the past decade, we have begun to understand how diet can” affect the back-and-forth between us-and-the-rest-of-us inside. And, the whole TMAO story is like “a smoking gun in [gut bacteria]-disease interactions.”

Since “choline…and carnitine are [the] primary sources of…TMAO production, the “logical intervention strategy” might be to reduce meat, dairy, and egg consumption. And, if we eat plant-based for long enough, we can actually change our “gut microbial communities,” such that they may not be able to make TMAO, even if we try. “The theory of “you are what you eat” [is] finally…supported by scientific evidence.”

We may not have to eat healthy for long, though. Soon, we may yet be able to “‘drug the microbiome’” as a way of “promoting cardiovascular health.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Praveen via pixabay. Image has been modified.

Video credit: Tyler McReynolds, Teetotalin LLC

Below is an approximation of this video’s audio content. To see any graphs, charts, graphics, images, and quotes to which Dr. Greger may be referring, watch the above video.

“We are walking communities comprised not only of a Homo sapiens host, but also of trillions of symbiotic commensal microorganisms within the gut, and on every other surface of our bodies.” There are more bacterial cells in our gut than there are human cells in our entire body. In fact, only about 10% of the DNA in our body is human. The rest is in our microbiome—the microbes that we share with this walking community we call our body. What do they do?

Our “[g]ut microbiota [our gut bacteria microbiome] serve as a filter for our largest environmental exposure—what we eat. Technically speaking, food is a foreign object that we take into our bodies [by the pound] every day.” “And, the microbial community within each of us significantly influences how we experience [those meals].” “Hence, our metabolism and absorption of food occurs through [this] filter of bacteria.”

But, if we eat a lot of meat, poultry, fish, milk, cheese, eggs, we can foster the growth of bacteria that convert the choline and carnitine in these foods into TMA—trimethylamine, which can be oxidized into TMAO, and wreak havoc on our arteries, increasing our risk of heart attack, stroke, and death.

We’ve known about this troublesome transformation from choline into trimethylamine for over 40 years. But, that was way before we learned about the heart disease connection. Why were they concerned back then? Because these methylamines might form “nitrosamines [which] have marked carcinogenic activity”—cancer-causing activity.

So, where is choline found in our diet? Mostly from meat, eggs, dairy, and refined grains. The link between meat and cancer probably wouldn’t surprise anyone. In fact, just due to the industrial pollutants alone (like PCBs), children probably shouldn’t eat more than like five servings a month of meats like beef, pork, or chicken, combined. But, what about cancer and eggs?

Studies going back to the 70s hinted at a correlation between eggs and colon cancer. But, that was just based on so-called ecological data, showing that countries that ate more eggs tended to have higher cancer rates. But, that could be due to a million things, right? It needed to be put to the test.

This started in the 80s, and by the 1990s, 15 studies had been published: ten suggesting “a direct association” between egg consumption and colorectal cancer, and five showing “no association.” By 2014, there were dozens more studies published, confirming that eggs may indeed be playing a role in the development of colon cancer—though no relationship was discovered between egg consumption and the development of precancerous polyps, which suggests that “egg[s] might be involved [more] in the promotional [stage of cancer growth—accelerating cancer growth, rather than] initiating [the cancer in the first place].”

Which brings us to 2015. Maybe it’s the TMAO, made from the choline in meat and eggs, that’s promoting cancer growth. And, indeed, in the Women’s Health Initiative study, women with the highest TMAO levels in their blood “had…approximately [three] times greater risk of rectal cancer”—suggesting “TMAO [levels] may serve as a potential predictor of increased colorectal cancer risk.”

Though there may be more evidence for elevated breast cancer risk with egg consumption than prostate cancer risk, the only other study to date on TMAO and cancer looked at prostate cancer, and did, indeed, find a higher risk.

“Diet has long been considered a primary factor in health. However, with the microbiome revolution of the past decade, we have begun to understand how diet can” affect the back-and-forth between us-and-the-rest-of-us inside. And, the whole TMAO story is like “a smoking gun in [gut bacteria]-disease interactions.”

Since “choline…and carnitine are [the] primary sources of…TMAO production, the “logical intervention strategy” might be to reduce meat, dairy, and egg consumption. And, if we eat plant-based for long enough, we can actually change our “gut microbial communities,” such that they may not be able to make TMAO, even if we try. “The theory of “you are what you eat” [is] finally…supported by scientific evidence.”

We may not have to eat healthy for long, though. Soon, we may yet be able to “‘drug the microbiome’” as a way of “promoting cardiovascular health.”

Please consider volunteering to help out on the site.

Image credit: Praveen via pixabay. Image has been modified.

Video credit: Tyler McReynolds, Teetotalin LLC

157 responses to “How Our Gut Bacteria Can Use Eggs to Accelerate Cancer

Commenting Etiquette

The intention of the comment section under each video and blog post is to allow all members to share their stories, questions, and feedback with others in a welcoming, engaging, and respectful environment. Off-topic comments are permitted, in hopes more experienced users may be able to point them to more relevant videos that may answer their questions. Vigorous debate of science is welcome so long as participants can disagree respectfully. Advertising products or services is not permitted.

To make NutritionFacts.org a place where people feel comfortable posting without feeling attacked, we have no tolerance for ad hominem attacks or comments that are racist, misogynist, homophobic, vulgar, or otherwise inappropriate. Please help us to foster a community of mutual respect. Enforcement of these rules is done to the best of our ability on a case-by-case basis.

  1. One can only imagine the havoc that drugging the microbiome for cardiovascular health will create within the body. Would love to have a sneak preview at the list of possible side effects on the leaflet that comes with the drugs.




    16
    1. i’m a scientist and seeing this makes me cringe… what a terrible analysis… junk science at its best… you spin the findings and connect unrelated issues… so bad, how disappointing…




      15
      1. yet you offer no specifics with your counter arguments / studies.

        Just word salad.

        Part of what these threads can be used for is to further the discussion.




        5
      2. Thank you for all the work you and your team provide to us all. I am a fan, and I try to promote this lifestyle and your work often; and live the life myself. Recently, friends of mine have offered criticism of your work, and i don’t really know how to respond to them. They specifically point out the following link authoritynutrition.com/how-not-to-die-review by Denise Minger dated March 21, 2017. In general, they criticize you for cherry picking, spin findings, and connect unrelated issues…Could you please address these issues? Thanks again, greatly appreciated! Matt.




        0
        1. Hey Matt, thanks for writing. I read through the criticisms and I cannot of course respond for Dr. G personally. My own take is that data interpretation from clinical studies and reviews often causes disagreements between academicians and authors alike. You have to weigh the TOTAL body of evidence for an argument or point of view rather than an isolated part. We know that as each day goes by, fish are becoming less and less safe to consume because of pollution of our oceans. We also are seeing evidence from clinical studies that the amount of omega-3 fat we need is not as great as once thought; also, that the anti-inflammatory benefits of fish may pale in comparison to that of a plant-based diet. There is no getting around the fact that animal foods are a form of slow poison; it’s just a matter of what our individual tolerance is for these before they make us sick. I’m a moderate, personally, but I cannot blame Dr. G for trying hard to make a case for plant-based eating, even if it’s not always a perfect one. I hope this helps!




          0
        2. Why would any reasonable person trying to be healthy, listen to Denise Minger?

          She begins…
          “Like many books advocating plant-based eating, How Not to Die paints nutritional science with a broad, suspiciously uncomplicated brush. Unprocessed plant foods are good, Greger hammers home, and everything else is a blight on the dietary landscape.”

          Right there you realize you need to stop reading and stop listening to anything this woman has to say.

          DR. GREGER… please, we’re asking you….
          Stop painting Nutritional Science with a broad, suspiciously (I love that word best) uncomplicated (no, even better) brush!!!

          Is this lady for real?? And she should know better because she is supposedly 80% raw VEG!! But no, you must then ask what her hidden agenda is… AAAAH yes…. 20% nastiness. She’s Plant-based, BUT claims to include a Weston Price / PALEO approach (the 20% nastiness) ….

          Take a look how cool Denise Minger is with her “different” dietary Fusion-based approach: SMH

          Raw fruit and raw vegetables—collectively, these are probably at least 80% of my diet

          Ok… so then you should be 80% certain and knowledgeable that PHYTOnutrients actually have beneficial and disease reversing effects and Dr. Greger has provided years of DETAILED, NON-Suspicious evidence of their benefits

          Raw fish and cooked or raw shellfish (salmon, tuna, mackerel, oysters, mussels, clams, roe); usually daily

          This is great. Load up on your saturated fat, cholesterol, toxins, parasites, Mercury, et al… all to please your tastebuds…. Oh and achieve your Omega 3 dosage or something?

          Coconut water; usually daily

          Ok, this is part of your 80%

          Cooked organ meats, usually chicken liver or chicken hearts; a few times per month

          Oh Denise… so attractive… mmmm Organs of dead animals YUM!! All that Heme Iron?

          Raw eggs or sunny-side-up eggs, usually from ducks; a few times per week

          Ooh that’s true… she gets her eggs from Ducks… so I guess she’s OK in terms of cholesterol… wait what? Duck Eggs have TWICE as much Cholesterol as Chicken Eggs? Oh yeah, but our brains need that extra cholesterol… I think Dr. David Perlmutter or Sally Fallon said it, so it must be true.

          Raw vegetable juice; a few times per week

          Ok, we’re back to a sensible approach (80%)

          Cooked tubers; once or twice per week

          No way!! McDougall would be so proud of you!!
          And she actually cooks them? Oh gosh, don’t tell your friends you might be in trouble. I hope you eat them cold, Denise, to increase the resistant starch content.

          Cooked vegetables; once or twice per week

          I hope you’re cooking Carrots and Tomatoes, Denise. Don’t over do it though… twice a week is kind of crazy!! Man.

          Sushi rice

          Wow, you consume arsenic? Didn’t you get the memo from Dr. Greger? Or did Dr. G provide TOO much info for you to process….?

          Cooked gelatinous animal foods like tendons; a few times per month

          Mmmm love those… all stringy and chewy!!

          Home-made bone broth; more frequently in the winter

          Another YUM. On Yeah, that smell of bones on a snowy winter Saturday afternoon.

          Seaweeds

          Wait, I hope you saw Dr. G’s warning video on Seaweed.

          Kimchi and sauerkraut

          Wait, again, I hope you saw Dr. G’s warning video.

          Occasionally: avocados, olives, nuts, seeds

          Oh no… take it easy on those nuts and seeds… you wouldn’t want to fight cancer or anything with all those phytosterols, proanthocyanidins, and phenols.

          Anyway…. Denise Minger and Kris Gunnars should stop over here at Dr. G’s site to obtain a solid, nutritional science background so they could then return to their blogs and actually help people improve their health and reverse disease on a 100% plant-based diet.




          1
  2. Is there a way to measure TMAO in the gut, or in the blood, as far as a blood test that a family doctor
    can write a script for?




    10
      1. Paul: the short answer is yes. The long answer is in this video as well as many other videos & blog posts on this site. Just do a search on eggs.




        18
          1. Hi, Alejandro. The short answer is both. The white and the yolk include choline. The carnitine content of foods is not reported in the USDA nutrient database, but I suspect it is also found in both the white and yolk of eggs. I hope that helps to clear up your confusion.
            https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/113?n1=%7BQv%3D1%7D&fgcd=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=&sort=&qlookup=&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=&Qv=1&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=
            https://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/114?n1=%7BQv%3D1%7D&fgcd=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=&sort=&qlookup=&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=&Qv=1&ds=&qt=&qp=&qa=&qn=&q=&ing=




            8
  3. There is another way that TMAO contributes to our current state of health. TMAO is, along with saturated fatty acids and advanced glycation end products, a contributor to insulin resistance. I know I know, advanced glycation end products are a result of insulin resistance raising blood sugar which then raises A1c. True but then we have a snowball effect as the AGEs raise insulin resistance. So stop eating animal and TMAO goes away, saturated fatty acids go away, excess dietary advanced glycation end products are dramatically reduced and T2 diabetes may become a bad memory. Then the endogenous excess advanced glycation end products go away as well.

    OK I can’t help it! I love the complexity of this diagram of pathology I’m building in my head. That is something that will give one a strong aversion reaction to even the thought of consuming animal.

    Gotta go there again: Health care is a global crisis. It is not heart disease, diabetes, auto immune disease, cancer etc etc, it is all of those and many more and the complex interrelationship and negative feed back they give one another. Got diabetes? You probably have heart disease. You almost certainly have elevated inflammation in general whether manifested or not and you have a higher probability of cancer et al. But then, this snowball seems to roll both ways. Got heart disease? You have a better chance of all the others….

    The essential take away from Dr Greger’s site is that it does not start with one or another disease as my endocrinologist or rheumatologist have suggested. It is the underlying dietary issues and lifestyle.




    39
    1. Stewart, you mentioned that ‘advanced glycation end products are a result of insulin resistance raising blood sugar’. Can you explain how IR leads to more AGEs? Thanks!




      0
      1. Good question Casper. Yes but there are other factors as well. While there is no one to one correlation, at a certain point insulin resistance is likely to result in higher blood sugar levels which in turn will elevate the A1c. The A1c is the measurement of glycosolated hemoglobin which is just one of the endogenous advanced glycation end products. It is considered a marker for all those we produce ourselves.

        Now it is possible for the beta cells to respond to insulin resistance with hyperinsulinemia that may keep the A1c in check for some time. But the tendency is for this to eventually result in T2 diabetes and hyperglycemia which in turn results in elevated advanced glycation end products and all the nasty side effects that is implied by that.

        However, if we reduce the dietary sources of AGEs, saturated fat along with animal products, and the TMAO then we may reverse that insulin resistance and resultant hyperinsulinemia and eventual beta cell failure.




        4
        1. It seems that there’s other pathways to AGE’s described in Dr. Greger’s videos. EXAMPLE: Some studies by Dr. Longo show that a high protein diet increased diabetes mortality by 75 times! Perhaps some of this increase was from animal protein which owes to mTOR increase (from leucine and other branch chain amino acids) which leads to increased IGF-1 which seems connected to increased inflammation which good signify increased glycation.
          Anyways, your point about how these pathways work together seems quite good. Dr. Greger also mentioned increased sulphur from methionine can cause increased acidity through H2S in the gut leading to AGE expression.

          FInally, recently Dr. Greger mentioned ROASTED NUTS as worrisome for glycation. That’s quite a big deal for me. I feed my kids roasted nut butters.




          6
      1. Susan: I would have thought that fiber was the answer, too. So it’s something else that’s removed during the ‘refining’ process. Would be interesting to know what it is.




        1
    1. Soy is the biggest source of lecithin which is made of choline & inositol. So how do we make acetylcholine, the neurotransmitter? I’ve seen an awful lot of positive info on choline for ages…I’ve taken non GMO lecithin (also in sunflower seeds) in my smoothies for decades..well even before I made smoothies.




      2
      1. I’m allergic to soy, so I’m well aware of the huge amounts of soy that are added to refined grain products, meaning any white grain product. That may be the answer to your question as to why refined grains carry more choline than whole grains. Check labels for soy.

        BTW, with the new format here, I can no longer see the entire video on my MacBookAir. It’s annoying to have to constantly be moving the video up and down.




        2
        1. kat, if you will click the little symbol on the very bottom right of the video you’ll get the whole picture. Then when the video is done, either click EXIT if your computer has it, or click the same symbol and it will go back to the normal screen for reading the comments.




          0
  4. I don’t like bringing up the video format again, but this format has to be the worst, in my opinion. The speed at which things appear and disappear on the screen is so disconcerting that I had to close my eyes at several points and am left feeling nauseous. It really takes away from my enjoyment of this video!




    17
    1. hi Casper, for me, this video along with the others of vol 35 are not an improvement over what we enjoyed in the past. https://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-treatment-for-angina/ is just one example. Notice how the pop up quotes always sit below the identifying title of the paper. This seems to me to be common sense, but lacking in todays video. If all that we can see is a flurry of papers, then there is no point in having a video at all.

      Apparently today is the last video on this volume. I have not seen any mention on whether the experimental videos will continue starting Wed or not.




      12
    2. I strongly agree with ‘VegGuy.’ The video presented by the good doctor, takes place at a fast trot, much like a performance by a smoke and mirrors magician. I would like to be able to study the references, seek correlations, confirmations and matching references, in my own time. I am not suggesting that there is any endeavor to mislead the reader, but the present method of factual presentation is quite unsatisfactory.




      2
      1. I too flashed on the ‘smoke & mirrors’ image. I stop and rewind to look more closely at the sources cited and to read more or the context of the passage. Part of what I love about dr. Greger’s blog is the brevity- down and dirty in a few minutes, but with lots of references to check out for more depth ….




        1
    1. Today I didn’t have a problem with the visuals, but I wonder if I’m the only one experiencing “breaks” or unintended pauses in the video – or at least the sound.




      0
  5. I have been eating a whole foods plant based diet (for almost 2 years) and am wondering if it ispossible to eat to little choline?
    http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/choline
    “In 2004, a case control study on neural tube defects (NTD) was reported from the California Birth Defects Monitoring Program (22). There is a concern that because choline is involved in some of the same metabolic pathways as folate, choline deficiency in pregnant women, along with folate deficiency, might be a risk for a NTD.

    In this study, there were 424 cases of a NTD and 440 controls. Quartiles of choline intake were ≤ 290, 290–372, 372–499, and ≥ 499. The risks for NTD for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quartile compared to the lowest were 0.63 (0.42-0.99), 0.65 (0.39-1.07), and 0.51 (0.25-1.07) respectively. Average choline intake for cases was 377 vs. 409 mg/day for controls.

    The risks for a NTD were lowest for women whose diets were in the 75th percentile for choline, betaine, and methionine (compared to those below the 25th percentile) with a very low risk of 0.17 (0.04-0.76).

    In other words, getting at least 290 mg/day of choline, as well as plenty of betaine and methionine, possibly reduces the risk of having a baby with a NTD”




    2
    1. Ralucarer – Not sure that science has been done re: the topic you raise. But I can tell you that my niece, 30, just gave birth 6 months ago to a perfectly healthy son. She has been vegetarian since herbirth – she never ate meat and removed the dairy as a teen. Her husband, also WFPB. So their vegetarian-vegan lifestyle did not affect their new baby on any level. Perfectly healthy, no neural tube defect. Dr. Benjamin Spock – known as America’s Pediatrician – recommends WFPB diets for all – children through adulthood. The USDA, American Diebetes Association, and others also recommend WFPB diets as healthy and safe. Thx!




      3
    2. The study asked people what they ate after the fact. So it may be unreliable. Nonetheless, If it was up to me, I’d personally increase my choline intake just to be safe. One person’s birth going well isn’t enough data to refute the study. Plus you likely won’t have the gut bacteria to metabolize it, and even if you did, I’d assume that the choline is being used by something else which would prevent the bacteria from getting to it.




      1
  6. If I remember correctly, this is one more in a long list if reasons eggs lead to disease:
    1. TMAO
    2. Cholestrol leading to arterial disfunction
    3. Increased iron leading massive creation of ROS (leading to cancer, heart and cognitive disease)
    4. Too much protein (leading to increased diabetes and cancer mortality)
    5. Leaky gut and endotoxemia from the high levels of fat allowing entoxin permeability
    6. Inflammation from environmental pollutions (metals and organics)

    Did I miss anything?




    8
    1. I’m just going to play devil’s advocate for the sake of argument.

      The yolk is the source of choline, cholesterol, inflammatory fats and all the industrial compounds that reside in fat. It’s clearly harmful. The white is the source of protein, including some branch chained amino acids and some methionine, the amino acid that creates free radicals as it burns like coal. But honestly, one egg white doesn’t really have a lot of protein–only about 3 1/2 grams total and only about 130 mg of methionine. Compare that to a small serving of fish or meat or chicken, which has about 700 mg of methionine.

      It just seems that if you’re going to “cheat” every once in a while and eat some animal food, then egg whites may be a decent choice. Add some exotic mushrooms and you get ergothioneine, which protects against free radicals in the cells’ mitochondria. Of course, you could say: Why cheat at all?




      4
      1. Thank you for reminding us of all the bad things about eggs. I needed that because I MISS EGGS MORE THAN ANYTHING, even more than cheese (only a little more). About cheating, I’m going to Maine this summer and I WILL have lobster. It’s a planned cheat. But I celebrate 4 years on a WFPB diet and I wouldn’t turn back for anything.




        2
        1. On a video I once heard Neal Barnard say that even HE cheats once every year while on vacation – was it Cape Cod? – or somewhere else in the East – and eats ice cream at a place that makes especially delicious ice cream. We are, after all, human and subject to the occasional misstep.

          Dr Doug Lisle has good, informative, and very entertaining videos that talk about such subjects on his website: esteemdynamics.org.




          1
    1. I think that the evidence against red wine (except in tiny amounts) and the evidence against olive oil (reduced arterial flow) is too scary. Perhaps there’s a lot of other foods that provide DMB.




      4
  7. i know ur trying different presentation formats so i must comment i found this unwatchsble. article titles flew by & text was not enlarged for us to ponder (phones are small yknow).

    if u do this more i’ll have to just read the transcripts, missing ur graphics. luv u but this was uncharacteristically irritating.




    9
  8. Could the choline in refined grains, versus whole grains, be to do with the extra surface area created in refinement? Just an idea, I’m no expert. Love the nutritionfacts education:-)




    2
  9. Although the take from this video seem to be that choline is bad for us. But let us not overlook that choline is essential for our health. For example, the US Food and Drug Administration stipulates that if infant formula is not made from cow’s milk be supplemented with choline. Likewise, according to Dr. Weil “Choline is vital for healthy liver function and normal brain development.” http://www.drweil.com/vitamins-supplements-herbs/supplements-remedies/choline/

    Am I misunderstanig the intent of this video?




    1
    1. Mary, Choline is not the problem. Gut bacteria that feed off Choline and Carnitine is the problem. The solution is consume Choline from Plant sources and do not consume Animal foods. The Microbiome of Vegans does not turn Choline into TMAO.




      12
        1. On a video I once heard Neal Barnard say that even HE cheats once every year while on vacation – was it Cape Cod? – or somewhere else in the East – and eats ice cream at a place that makes especially delicious ice cream. We are, after all, human and subject to the occasional misstep.

          Dr Doug Lisle has good, informative, and very entertaining videos that talk about such subjects on his website: esteemdynamics.org.




          0
  10. Does anyone suspect that some of the comments are coming from paid employees of the egg industry? If I were the egg industry, I would hire people to do that. I’m not, so I don’t eat eggs.




    10
    1. The research was part-funded by the three pro-dairy groups – Global Dairy Platform, Dairy Research Institute and Dairy Australia – but they had no influence over it, the paper said. Givens is an adviser to the Food Standards Agency.

      I think that tells you all you need to know.




      7
    2. Anthony – consider that human-being Mother’s milk is “Mature human milk contains 3%–5% fat, 0.8%–0.9% protein, 6.9%–7.2% carbohydrate calculated as lactose, and 0.2% mineral constituents expressed as ash.”
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/392766

      Whole cows milk is approximately 50% fat (remember – milkfat in milk is described by %-by-weight, not %-by-calories as most other foods are). Two percent cow milk is actually 35% fat by calorie. Human being Mother’s milk and calf mother’s milk are completely different configurations.

      The study in the Guardian that you reference was paid for by 3 different dairy groups. The best of science is paid for by independent resources. This Guardian article states that individuals should drink cows milk so that they get their calcium for bones, etc. Ask yourself, . . where do the cows themselves get their calcium if they don’t drink cows milk all their lives? Where do all large grazing vegetarian animals get their calcium? Even whales (yes, they are mammals) don’t drink cows milk to get their calcium. I’m 63 years old, haven’t drunk milk since I was a child – hated the stuff. Guess what? no osteoporosis, no malformation of my bones, perfectly healthy and no medications. The dairy industry just loves to scare people. When I refused to drink milk people tried to scare me into consuming it. I am so glad I chose to not to worry about it. My vegan WFPB niece just gave birth to a perfectly healthy WFPB baby 6 months ago.

      As time goes on more and more people who eat WFPB will show that not consuming cows milk is no problem physiologically.




      12
    3. Thanks for your Anthony,

      Regarding the study:

      “1) The results of a systematic review are only as good as the quality of the underlying studies. These are all observational studies and it’s possible that unadjusted health and lifestyle factors are having an influence. Different studies adjusted for different variables; for example, some adjusted for overall diet, smoking and total energy intake, others did not.

      2) Studies may also have differed in how accurately they measured analysed dairy intake and health outcomes. This may explain some variation in individual study results, and make it difficult to summarise these studies all together.

      3) Overall there wasn’t good evidence for any link between dairy and these health outcomes. The lowered risk of cheese fell short of statistical significance. The links between fermented products and all-cause death and cardiovascular disease were down to the results of one study. This shows the influence that one study, which may differ in methods from others, can have on the overall results.

      4) There are other dairy products such as cream that are very high in fat but were not individually assessed and might have had a more negative effect on health.
      Only three studies were from Asia, compared to 17 from Europe. The results might therefore be more generalisable to European populations than the rest of the world.

      5) Dairy products such as cheese, milk and butter often contain high levels of saturated fat and salt, particularly the full-fat versions”. And as recently found by another study (see here) “The replacement of animal fats, including dairy fat, with vegetable sources of fats and PUFAs may reduce risk of CVD.”

      This study was based on a meta-analysis funded by the dairy industry, which again raises a lot of questions. As many publications have stated, meta-analysis are not the best available evidence to draw any conclusions (see here) and we also know, meta-analysis in nutrition can be highly manipulated by its sponsor, in this case, by the dairy industry (see here)

      6) All dairy foods contain natural sources of trans fat, which is as harmful as processed trans fat (see here) and this argument alone is sufficient to take off dairy products from our diet.

      Hope this answer helps.




      3
  11. Interesting analogy … It would be important to note – are the tests based on commercial eggs ? Interestingly most people would eat toast or bread with their eggs, and at the beginning of the presentation you mentioned grains as being a contributing factor also along with meat and eggs.




    1
  12. My comment is on all the new video styles. I totally get that Dr. Greger is trying to reach as many people as possible and wants the videos to be entertaining and about interesting topics that many people might search for. BUT they are not doing it for me at all. His earliest videos are the best. Simple. Straight forward. Just the facts about just that topic. I think too much is trying to be fit into the new videos. I don’t want to forward them to my family and friends as I did with the earlier ones because they are confusing unless you have some of the background info already. I know they won’t investigate further but they will watch a short clip on something simple like which food has the most antioxidents, how ingesting oil affects the arteries, why a whole food is better than one nutrient alone.




    5
    1. How many times can Dr. G do a “best” this or that?

      He has already uploaded about 2000 videos. The “simple”, obvious stuff is played out at this point. All those videos you need for your family are right there, searchable on his site.

      I’m glad he’s getting a little more “off-base”.




      3
    2. To me, it seems like Dr G tossed out the baby with the bath water. It seems to me that all he needed was an updated site, but not updated video format.




      1
      1. Oh man. What is the big thing about this new video format? My God. Is it THAT big of a change?? What is the big issue that everyone is having? You press Play, you listen and watch, and when you don’t catch something the first time you scrub back 30 seconds and listen again.

        I’ve been watching these videos for about 5 years now and the visuals are not much different. If you can’t catch the reference or chart, there’s a Pause button you can click or tap. I’ve been doing that for 5 years. There’s a Transcript. There’s references on the “Sources Cited tab”. The website couldn’t be more convenient and people are still complaining?

        We’re lucky to have 5 min clips that are loaded with info that would take you days to research and piece together on our own. Let’s stop complaining everybody.




        5
        1. Got to agree with you Casper. Michael does an incredible job and we should be so grateful for even half of the information that he manages to pack into these videos.

          And as Michael has already said, he makes the videos in batches and the format is set for the whole batch. To keep complaining and complaining is pointless, all the videos for this batch are made and aren’t going to change.

          Get over it please people and be grateful for all the effort and work that goes into these videos.




          2
      1. You have to take into account that Red Blood cells make up most human cells at around 85%. So if we are talking about cells that contain DNA, then the ratio is still around 8:1.




        1
    1. Cell is a peer reviewed journal published through Elsevier. They have an impact factor of 28.71, so Nature has an impact factor of 38.138, so it’s pretty legit information. I’m not sure if you can download the PDF but if you can get hold of the paper it’s worth a read. That is of course the cool thing about science, old facts get replaced with new ones all the time.




      1
      1. That’s fine. But like I stated earlier, when you rule out Red Blood cells which comprise about 85% of all human cells, the ratio is still around 8:1. Dr. G and others are referring to the 15% that contain DNA. So, 8:1, 10:1, pretty much the same thing.




        1
        1. The 10:1 figure comes from actual DNA…. as in…. less than 1/10th of the DNA in the thing that you call ‘your’ body is actually your DNA.

          This thread is the first time i’ve ever heard someone put it as actual cells being 10:1 just so they can dispute it. Not sure if Kirsty intended to create a straw man fallacy but that’s all she did.

          Over 10:1 of the DNA in the object that you call ‘your’ body is not yours, it’s not human. The microbiome’s DNA outnumbers human DNA by 10:1.




          1
          1. So I don’t think correcting an outdated statement counts as a straw man fallacy. I’m not saying that the rest of the video is useless, I really enjoyed it. It’s just that paper specifically said “We now know that the human gut harbors more than 100 trillion microbial cells, far outnumbering the human host cells of the body”. This statement is outdated and I do believe red blood cells should be included in that count because they are also cells and indeed they were included in the previous calculations in older papers.

            DNA is another story I don’t dispute that there is easily more microbial nucleic acids in the human body at one time than there is human nucleic acids, I’m just not so confident in the ratios commonly stated. Not that it really matters in this context. I’m just interested personally.

            But questioning things is a good thing isn’t it? I shouldn’t just accept everything Dr. Greger ever said without reading the original papers and seeing if more current papers haven’t upturned more accurate evidence. A plant based diet is not a religion after all.




            1
            1. Reading through the paper it doesn’t seem to correct anything. It casts doubt but doesn’t actually correct or prove anything other than there is some doubt.

              They say this…

              Assuming that wet stool is representative of the colon content and a colon content volume of 0.41 L, we have 3.9 × 1013 bacteria in the colon with an uncertainty of 24% and a variation of 52% over a population of standard weight males. Considering that the contribution to the total number of bacteria from other organs is at most 1012, we use 3.9 × 1013 as our estimate for the number of bacteria in the “reference man.”

              So assuming that wet stool is representative is a huge leap. What about bacteria living on the walls of the colon? What about bacteria living in the small intestine? What about diet? What about different enterotypes?

              There seems to be a lot of real information missing, which is what, i take the paper to actually be making the point about. That their guesstimate is as good as anyone else’s. So we may as well just stick with the 10:1 until we have better, more factual information, because it makes the point very well. Pulling 1:1 out of a hat to sow doubt where people’s health and wellbeing does not need any more doubt isn’t helpful.

              Kind of makes me think about big tobacco etc., deciding to sow doubt about science in order to keep selling their product. So could this not be big food or big pharma wanting people paying less attention to their microbiome because big food and big pharma are the greatest losers in this emerging science.




              1
              1. I see doubt as a good thing. Questioning the amount of microbes in your body doesn’t mean that any of the other dietary claims are incorrect. It’s not like this paper is a conspiracy theory published by the egg industry. It’s purely academic, otherwise they’d have to declare a conflict of interest.
                I don’t think this paper would have been published in cell if it was just some random people pulling 1:1 out of a hat either.
                I’d much rather trust a peer reviewed estimate from 2016 than one from 1977…..Which is what most of the newer papers are doing now anyway, it’s already been cited 83 times in 2017 microbiota related studies.




                0
                1. Oh no… no one is questioning the validity… their 1:1 is the latest (correct) estimate. So it’s really just coming down to whether or not to include RBC when you share this fun fact with people. Their 1:1 calculator includes RBC. If other people claim 10:1 without verbally excluding RBC, then they’re simply wrong.




                  0
                2. Kirsty, it was some random university staff pulling 1:1 out of a hat.

                  There’s no evidence whatsoever in that paper for 1:1 being anything other than a wild guess that’s completely unsupported by any actual evidence.

                  And to say there’s no industry involvement is utterly naive when considering university research departments. How much does this university get given by corporations? Have you actually seen their accounts?




                  1
            2. We should always question, even Dr. G. Whether or not we include RBC really doesn’t matter at the end of the day. Whether it’s 1:1 or 8:1 is something that just needs to be clarified moving forward, but it doesn’t change the importance of halving a particular microbiome and its effects on health. A 100% plant based diet gives us more of the bacteria we need to munch on fiber and RS and improve our health, and less of the bacteria that do more harm to us.




              3
  13. So many people these days are identifying eggs as “the perfect food” and the most “nutrient dense” food around. It’s a big joke. If you look at the actual amounts of each nutrient, they pale in comparison to so many plant foods.

    Aside from Choline, the only SUPERSTAR component to Eggs is CHOLESTEROL. So if you’re one of these people that claims dietary cholesterol has no effect on the cardiovascular system, and that the body and brain actually need lots of cholesterol, then go ahead and eat your 3-egg scramble everyday. See how that turns out for ya.

    It’s really all sad. I mean, even when I was eating animals 5 years ago, at least admitted that the stuff was bad. But people these days are actually pro-animal food for good-health, due to these near-insidious doctors like William Davis, Mark Hyman, and the descendants of Weston Price, etc.




    3
    1. Right. I live in a rural area and a lot of “health conscious” people I know rave about the farms in the area where they buy grass fed beef and eggs from true free range chickens. But a cow is still a cow and eggs are still eggs




      1
  14. And once again, I ask: How does our body make the neurotransmitter ACETYLCHOLINE? This is overblown, we need choline..it’s just that those people who consume too much of it along with animal products run the risk of disease. On the other hand, we can suffer from a deficiency if we don’t get enough. It used to be considered a B vitamin.




    0
    1. You make a great point. It’s important to know the “therapeutic index” of foods or medicine, in other words, the amounts that are helpful compared to the amounts that may be dangerous. In 1998, when the “adequate intake” for choline was released (there is no established RDA for choline), they said 550mg daily might be best. But that wasn’t rigorously determined: they compared only 50mg/day vs 550mg day, and 50mg/day was too low. Considering the negative effects of choline in omnivores plus the risk of liver disease with no dietary choline, the optimal amount seems to be closer to 300mg/day. Here’s a nice summary of the biochemistry of choline and foods that safely provide enough choline to avoid deficiency: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/choline As you point out, very recent data finds that plant based eaters lack the gut bacteria that convert excess dietary choline into TMAO, so upper therapeutic range isn’t clear in plant based eaters, but if one eats a diverse, whole food plant based diet including fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and beans, there will plenty of choline to meet our dietary needs. In omnivores, the equivalent of one egg daily provides enough excess choline to lead to dangerous production of TMAO. -Dr Anderson, volunteer with NutritionFacts.org




      0
    1. Hi, Simon. I do not recommend eating raw eggs. You might want to check this out:
      https://nutritionfacts.org/video/who-says-eggs-arent-healthy-or-safe/
      Darchiterd’s comment below is accurate, with regard to Salmonella infection risk. In addition, there is a biotin-binding protein in raw egg white, denatured by cooking, that can induce biotin deficiency in those who regularly consume raw eggs. In my opinion, it it best to skip the eggs. I hope that helps!




      0
  15. The new web page format is a huge disappointment for me. I come here once every week or two to catch up on nutrition videos. Before the change, I could easily watch the 3 to 5 videos posted since my last check-in. Now I can only watch the last posted video and I have no way to easily find the others posted in the prior two weeks and so I completely miss their information. Please find a way to fix this! Can you please provide links to videos posted in the last 2 weeks on the front page?




    4
    1. Hi TJ, to find all of the recent videos hover over “Video Library” and then click on “All Videos.” There you will see them in reverse chronological order, with the dates visible so you can easily see which ones you are catching up on!




      0
  16. Questions for Dr. Greger:

    Regarding the development of possible oral treatments to change gut flora so that TMA is not generated:

    Have any of the journal article authors or anyone speculated that there could be mutations in the gut that would revive TMA generating bacteria despite the treatments or other degradation routes? When I have read these articles or listen to presentations by the authors I noticed that they do not state the obvious recommendation to eat vegan. Instead they promote the idea in peoples’ minds that there is a technological solution to their bad habits so they can continue with them. Seems as though this idea is like the rest of the pharmaceutical industry, trying to make huge profits on a promised solution that turns out to be nominal or if there is some success what are the possible side effects.




    1
    1. Thanks for your comment.

      You are absolutely right in that context.

      A study was recently published regarding choline intake and TMAO, and the authors do not recommend avoiding eggs, instead they see aspirin as a solution.

      See here.




      0
      1. Such a sad and/or disgusting situation. Dr. Stan Hazen has led wonderful research validating a whole plant base diet approach relative to cardiovascular disease but avoids or dances around the obvious recommendation to go WPBD, instead raising hope in peoples’ minds there is a techonological approach to preserving their bad habits. I guess doing so would go against his past funders from the pharmaceutical and other “therapeutic” companies.

        In past articles and presentations Dr. Hazen recommended development of new gut flora treatments. Now in this article he is down to aspirin. Wonder if the the other development is proving fruitless.

        I would still like to see some research on gut bacteria mutations in the presence of choline or carnitine.




        1
    1. Thanks for your question Dave.

      Regarding fish consumption and cancer, NF has a great video:

      Omega 3s, Prostate Cancer, and Atrial Fibrillation

      A recent study also found (see here):

      “For prostate cancer-specific mortality, only a higher intake of fatty fish was associated with a higher mortality [per daily 25 g increment in intake (mortality rate ratio=1.27; 95% confidence interval: 1.04-1.55; P=0.02)]”.

      Regarding fish consumption and cardiovascular disease:

      Is Fish Oil Just Snake Oil?

      Should We Take EPA & DHA Omega-3 For Our Heart?

      There have been benefits reported in the scientific literature, but here is what a 2016 publication has to say (see here) that eh observed benefits may have to do with the fact that:

      “those who consume a predominantly fish-based diet may simply be avoiding more hazardous alternative forms of caloric intake.” And not that fish is healthy itself as a food. Therefore, obvious that pescatarians are going to be healthier than the general population, but not healthier than vegetarians or vegans (see here).

      Hope this answer helps.




      2
      1. Thanks for your reply! I did read that a study of the 7th Day Adventists found that the fish-eaters outlived the vegans, vegetarians, and (of course) the meat-eaters. Perhaps that is due to dietary deficiencies of B12 and DHA in the vegans & vegetarians. But I was somewhat surprised by that finding.




        0
  17. I like some of these videos, but some are extreme.
    The extremes ones undermine the good videos.
    As I hear more from Nutrition.com I believe this is merely an anti-animal food website. (not science)
    To bad. Selling something like most other websites.
    Oh for a real unbiased view.

    I read your book but I’m becoming disappointed with views expressed




    0
    1. Clair, your post seems to suggest that an “anti animal food website” cannot be scientific. The fact is though, good science includes basing conclusions on evidence. If you check Dr Greger’s “sources cited” button just above the “doctor’s notes” section, it will take you to the evidence for what is presented here.

      The fact is that there is a preponderance of evidence that our epidemic of diseases of affluence stem primarily from the standard American diet which is more and more animal based. Diseases of affluence include heart disease, diabetes, auto immune diseases, cancer, et al. We do know from studies where diets have been plant based that these diseases either do not exist or are greatly reduced.

      Obesity alone promises to become an economic catastrophe in coming decades. It is very clear (again) from a preponderance of evidence, that a dietary approach advocated here can solve this. I submit that embracing that catastrophe rather than the solution is extraordinarily extremist.

      In my own case, I was in a great deal of pain from arthritis that my doctor wanted to control by suppressing my immune system. I thought that would obviously be a good way to take a decade or two off my life which struck me as very extreme. So I chose the dietary altenative. It costs much much less and the arthritis is gone.

      There are many many such stories ranging from auto immune diseases to heart disease reversal to diabetes reversal et al. Again, keeping the disease and paying for drugs while our bodies continue to decline strikes me as monumentally extreme. This is not militantly anti animal food. It is anti atherogenic, diabetigenic, obesogenic, carcinogenic foods.

      Oh by the way this is a non profit site. The proceeds from the sale of anything on this site is used for research and promotion of information. Notice there are no supplements (such as Dr Greger’s magic elixer) sold here.

      Now having said that, I would like very much to know which video you thought to represent some sort of extremism.

      Best wishes. S
      (Aside: it is not yet 8:00 am and I probably do need an “Edith” button as a result.)




      1
  18. I just finished a summit on the Microbiome, and it provided information as to how old and long microbes been on this Earth, like billions of years before we arrived. They even mentioned that we even have a Virome and many viruses are “helpful” and the shocking news that 80% of our genome is retroviral genetic material and only 20% is human genes. leading me to the conclusion we more likely revolved from retrovirus than a bacteria. My point with all this is, The NIH spend alot of our tax dollar for research, and I think it is TRAGIC the researcher mindset is always CONTROL and MANIPULATION……..which is total lack of “respect” for organisms that has survived billions of years……….they waste of my tax payer dollar.




    0
  19. Very good arguments against eggs. Imposible to argue against. So complete and complex meat eaters could never even understand, their brains being so clogged with animal fat and all.

    Keep eating veggies everyone, only way not to die abruptly. And remember, they must be raw, don’t cook them or you destroy the nutrients. And likely get cancer.




    0
    1. Bob, you may want to consider eating a mixture of raw and cooked. As we know, carotenoids are greatly enhanced through cooking, and they’re one of the most important phytonutrient families one can consume.




      0
      1. Casper.

        Carotenoid absorption is greatly enhanced through making smoothies – more than cooking and chewing…

        https://nutritionfacts.org/video/are-green-smoothies-good-for-you/

        A 1200 watt or more blender for 40 seconds will free up most of the carotenoids.

        Eating a mix of raw whole plant foods along with raw blended plant foods is needed to allow nutrients to be transported down to large intestine to feed the happy vegan microbiome.

        No need to eat cooked food. IMHO

        Although i would very much like to see some food digestion and absorption trials carried out specifically on long term raw food vegans. Links would be appreciated to any such trials if anyone has any.




        0
        1. Growing Young, I agree with you that smoothies are a great alternative to cooking, regarding carotenoid absorption, but I personally don’t see why anyone would limit themselves to smoothies in order to break down cell walls to unleash these phytonutrients.

          Raw movement seems a bit ideological IMO. Cooking carotenoid foods clearly achieves excellent levels, even if they’re a bit inferior to a smoothie’s results. This is where the Raw movement loses other vegans like me. It’s great if you can personally eat raw foods and smoothies all day, but I don’t see it as superior to including cooked carotenoid foods.

          If you can offer some data demonstrating that Raw vegans’ Microbiome includes a more beneficial bacterial profile to those vegans who include cooked food, I’m really anxious to take a look.

          Plus, I’m sure you know, Okinawans didn’t have NutriBullets back in the day. They simply cooked and consumed Sweet Potatoes as 60+% of their caloric intake, and were (at that point) the longest living population of the time. And their diet was far from that of a Raw vegan.

          b-Carotene… Sweet potato, butternut squash, collard/turnip greens, chard, broccoli rabe are all foods I personally care not to limit to smoothies. They’re so enjoyable cooked.

          b-Cryptoxanthin… Butternut Squash (baked) blows every other food out of the water regarding its b-Crypto levels. I personally enjoy eating this cooked over adding it to a smoothie.

          Lutein/Zeaxanthin… again, I’d much rather include side dishes of chard/collard/turnip etc. greens (cooked) over adding to a smoothie. I like to do Spinach or Kale in smoothies.




          2
        2. Good morning Growing Young. Your point about the advantages of smoothies is not unreasonable. However, the real point in my opinion is really one of palatability and convenience. I try to not let the perfect be the enemy of good. e.g. I’ve a sister who was having some severe gastrointestinal problems steming (not surprisingly) from diet. She was losing weight and surviving mostly on ensure. I got her to start with a dietary mainstay of a daily meal of sweet potatoes, beans greens, mushrooms and spices all mixed together. It was successful enough that trips to the pharmacist for psyllium tablets could be dropped, her pain disappeared, and she started to gain weight.

          She liked the mixture and then wanted to know if she could eat pinto beans instead of black beans. My answer was, “the best bean is the one you eat.” So in that line I will recommend that the best wfpbd is the one you find most palatable, convenient and therefore possible.




          1
          1. Nicely said Stewart! I love that – “try not to let perfect be the enemy of good”.

            Also, there’s no clear evidence of a “perfect diet” anyway. Raw vegans can’t eat even decide between pinto and black since the cannot consume cooked beans. Legumes are a powerhouse house food that they miss out on, for no good reason at all IMO. Unless they sprout? Eh

            RV’s also wouldn’t cook and eat quinoa, millet or amaranth. They’re packed with insoluble fiber. Gut bacteria that munch on insoluble fiber produce more butyrate than soluble fiber. They can of course sprout the grains, which is healthy, but I’d rather just enjoy a delicious warm bowl of lentil soup.

            RV’s are missing out on Tofu (unless it’s Raw Tofu which is quite rare) which is good for gut health and contains beneficial phytonutrients.

            RV’s are also missing out on lycopene-rich Tomato sauce over pasta. But of course they wouldn’t cook pasta anyway. They might blend raw tomatoes, and put on Spaghetti Squash. That’s great, but this keeps coming back to ideology over taste preference.

            RV’s are clearly healthier than probably 99% of the western population. However, this notion that cooking food destroys vital enzymes for digestion etc. is not justified. Our stomach enzymes break down, denature and inactivate these enzymes anyway so they generally never make it to the small intestine, except maybe in the case of some fermented foods.

            Anyway, I’m not trying to debate against the health benefits of raw veganism. I just think most Raw vegans that I’ve listened to in the movement feel their diet is superior to other vegan diets. There’s simply no proof of that (yet). Seventh day Adventists always outperform in studies. RV hopefully will be included in all future vegan studies.

            And again, I point to Okinawa pre-1950. And these people even include some meat. But the keys to their diet (I believe) is a combo of large quantities of sweet potatoes and calorie and methionine restriction.




            3
            1. Thanks CG. The points in this discussion are very important for the reasons you mentioned. But yes I could be very healthy as a raw vegan. However, I once met a woman who was about 125 lb overweight. She had tried the raw vegan approach, lost 30 lb but just couldn’t stick with it.

              So I’m gonna argue that raw vegan was counterproductive in her case and I suspect many others.




              3
                1. The best “diet” is ALWAYS the one we can stick with long term. Nice to have a big tent here that allows all kinds of eaters the ability to participate, without feeling judged, bad, or lacking in their approach. Thanks for the reminder!




                  0
            2. WoW. This is the exact problem in vegan community:

              I suggest Bob might want to include cooked carotenoid foods as a helpful, reasonable suggestion.

              You one-up me, and throw up a Greger link showing how 1200w blenders can break down cell walls, and therefore there’s no need to consume cooked foods.

              Then, I challenge your position as part of a healthy discussion (that’s what our community should do in order to help all of us progress).

              Stewart offers a great point. And I further make other points why RV may not be the best approach for most vegans.

              And I’m trolling? Wow. Society is just becoming way too soft.




              0
              1. Bob, I’m really sorry for trying to one-up you. I should have first asked you if you were aware of a 1200w blender’s ability to break down cell walls and increase the bioavailability of carotenoids. My bad!

                I just thought it was a bit curious that you mentioned “veggies must be Raw” and “don’t cook them” or “you’ll likely get cancer”. With all due respect, that’s simply not true.

                Now, GY, when did I suggest people eat highly processed junk food for nutrients? Are you referring to my point about pre-1950 Okinawa (the world’s capital of centenarians)? Or, are you calling “cooked” grains&legumes, pasta, Tofu, etc. junk food? If so, please educate me, along with Greger (who always supports soy foods), McDougall (who supports amaranth, quinoa, millet), Fuhrman (who’s big on cooked legumes), and Barnard (who always suggests pasta w/ marinara sauce)… please at least tell me you’re not calling these foods highly processed junk food, and not calling the leaders of plant-based nutrition foolish for recommending cooked foods…. are you?

                Btw, I don’t think you understand the definition and behavior of internet trolling.




                0
              2. Hello,

                Volunteer moderator Lisa Schmidt here. Please note that we welcome spirited debate on this site; it is great to read many of the comments in this thread. HOWEVER, always remember that civility rules. We can agree to disagree, and we can support our positions. But, moderators such as myself will determine trolling as well as spam activities. You do not add to the debate by labeling another as a TROLL. Please be kind!

                Crunch away, raw vegan.

                Lisa




                0
            3. A thoughtful, detailed reply does not constitute trolling. That’s called intelligent debate. It doesn’t make sense to me to throw out an entire class of food without any proof that it’s less healthy (and many foods have more absorbable nutrients in their cooked form – for instance, spinach has more nutrients available to us when slightly steamed than raw).




              2
              1. That wasn’t a thoughtful detailed reply that casper gave.

                Thoughtful would be to politely state the nutrients that all raw vegans are deficient in – not to rant and get sarcastic and act like a troll.

                Thoughtful would be to state where he gets the information on for these nutrients instead of just making stuff up in his head like you need to eat cooked food to get enough carotenoids – which was blatantly untrue, blatantly false and a blatant lie.

                Thoughtful would be not stating or suggesting that people on a raw vegan diet cannot get any nutrients that a cooked vegan can without backing up any claims, and when corrected to not resort to spitting his dummy out like a little cry baby.

                Suggesting to people that you cannot get enough nutrients on a raw vegan diet is wrong, it’s certainly not thoughtful.

                So i challenge casper….

                Politely name one nutrient that i am deficient in due to a raw vegan diet. Cite credible sources and studies as to how the level was defined and by whom.

                Just one nutrient. Not a big list. Just one.




                0
                1. I find your posts far less polite than his. He didn’t call you names, yet you found it necessary to call him a cry baby. I would say that you get way too riled when disagreed with, and that you should examine your own attitude about raw vs. non-raw so you don’t need to be so defensive. We all have a choice of what we want to eat while we’re here on Earth. The point of this website is to see what science there actually is to substantiate our beliefs about food. And sometimes when reading Dr.
                  Greger’s articles I am left with questions or comments, which is the point of having us able to comment – the point is not to insult each other – especially since we are all united in wanting to provide ourselves with the best diet possible.




                  2
                  1. Johan… thanks a lot for your kind words! And btw: I don’t think I’m a Saint. I’m not 100% polite. But I didn’t totally trash RVs the way she made it sound.

                    Growing Young, I agree with you that smoothies are a great alternative to cooking, regarding carotenoid absorption, but I personally don’t see why anyone would limit themselves to smoothies in order to break down cell walls to unleash these phytonutrients.

                    Raw movement seems a bit ideological IMO. Cooking carotenoid foods clearly achieves excellent levels, even if they’re a bit inferior to a smoothie’s results. This is where the Raw movement loses other vegans like me. It’s great if you can personally eat raw foods and smoothies all day, but I don’t see it as superior to including cooked carotenoid foods.

                    If you can offer some data demonstrating that Raw vegans’ Microbiome includes a more beneficial bacterial profile to those vegans who include cooked food, I’m really anxious to take a look.

                    Plus, I’m sure you know, Okinawans didn’t have NutriBullets back in the day. They simply cooked and consumed Sweet Potatoes as 60+% of their caloric intake, and were (at that point) the longest living population of the time. And their diet was far from that of a Raw vegan.

                    b-Carotene… Sweet potato, butternut squash, collard/turnip greens, chard, broccoli rabe are all foods I personally care not to limit to smoothies. They’re so enjoyable cooked.

                    b-Cryptoxanthin… Butternut Squash (baked) blows every other food out of the water regarding its b-Crypto levels. I personally enjoy eating this cooked over adding it to a smoothie.

                    Lutein/Zeaxanthin… again, I’d much rather include side dishes of chard/collard/turnip etc. greens (cooked) over adding to a smoothie. I like to do Spinach or Kale in smoothies.

                    Nicely said Stewart! I love that – “try not to let perfect be the enemy of good”.

                    Also, there’s no clear evidence of a “perfect diet” anyway. Raw vegans can’t eat even decide between pinto and black since the cannot consume cooked beans. Legumes are a powerhouse house food that they miss out on, for no good reason at all IMO. Unless they sprout? Eh

                    RV’s also wouldn’t cook and eat quinoa, millet or amaranth. They’re packed with insoluble fiber. Gut bacteria that munch on insoluble fiber produce more butyrate than soluble fiber. They can of course sprout the grains, which is healthy, but I’d rather just enjoy a delicious warm bowl of lentil soup.

                    RV’s are missing out on Tofu (unless it’s Raw Tofu which is quite rare) which is good for gut health and contains beneficial phytonutrients.

                    RV’s are also missing out on lycopene-rich Tomato sauce over pasta. But of course they wouldn’t cook pasta anyway. They might blend raw tomatoes, and put on Spaghetti Squash. That’s great, but this keeps coming back to ideology over taste preference.

                    RV’s are clearly healthier than probably 99% of the western population. However, this notion that cooking food destroys vital enzymes for digestion etc. is not justified. Our stomach enzymes break down, denature and inactivate these enzymes anyway so they generally never make it to the small intestine, except maybe in the case of some fermented foods.

                    Anyway, I’m not trying to debate against the health benefits of raw veganism. I just think most Raw vegans that I’ve listened to in the movement feel their diet is superior to other vegan diets. There’s simply no proof of that (yet). Seventh day Adventists always outperform in studies. RV hopefully will be included in all future vegan studies.

                    And again, I point to Okinawa pre-1950. And these people even include some meat. But the keys to their diet (I believe) is a combo of large quantities of sweet potatoes and calorie and methionine restriction.

                    Ok. You’re getting so caught up on the 1200w blender and Carotenoids. I already admitted once or twice that cooking for Carotenoids is inferior to a 1200w blender.

                    Sorry, Bob many be a really nice guy, but he’s still wrong in saying that if you cook your veggies you’ll likely develop cancer. And I admitted to being wrong by engaging Bob first to understand his knowledge of raw veganism and approaches to extracting Carotenoids for bioavailability.

                    You’re entire paradigm by which you argue seems to be that there’s ‘no reason at all to cook foods at all’ since you get all nutrients on a raw diet. I’ve already pointed out several times that you can certainly sprout a lot of grains and legumes as an alternative to cooking. But, I can make the inverse claim: “There’s absolutely no reason to avoid cooking sweet potatoes”. See? That’s a simple, true statement too. I can make the same claims of legumes… “Although sprouting is certainly a great option, (assuming one is clear about how to reduce dangerous Lectin levels) there’s absolutely no reason to avoid cooking legumes as well”.

                    Raw vegans act as if cooking is such a horrible thing… as if killing off “enzymes” is like taking them to a slaughterhouse. I’ve already addressed enzymes, stomach acids, the fallacious reasoning… to which you had no response.

                    Yes, we know you can sprout Soybeans if you wish to have a great anti-breast/prostate cancer source. But, you go so far to claim Tofu is “Junk food”. Dr. Greger has repeatedly pointed to studies that demonstrate how processed soy products, including Tofu and even Soy milk have greatly reduced the risk of breast cancer in trials. We can also point (again) to the Japanese population pre-1950 where breast cancer was almost non-existent, and I can assure you it from sprouting soy beans. They’re heavy Tofu consumers.

                    Like I’ve said repeatedly, RV is an ideology. It’s about protecting enzymes at all cost. It has to be, since we can all agree that there’s absolutely no reason to avoid the inclusion of cooking and processing methods for certain healthy foods like legumes, Carotenoids foods, and grains.

                    I’d also like to know if there have been studies on using 1200w blenders break down mycochitin walls to reduce the levels of hydrazine/agaritine, as effectively as cooking the mushrooms. As we know, mushrooms are an anti-cancer powerhouse, so hopefully RVs can enjoy their aromatase inhibiting effects by blending. (I’m not being sarcastic).

                    How about green tea leaves? Does a 1200w blender extract as much EGCG out of dry tea leaves? (Again, I’m not being sarcastic).

                    One final point I’ll make to give you food for thought: 1/2 of my family follow the lifestyle of Seventh Day Adventism. This means: no dancing and no jewelry. So, think of yourself… you clearly wear jewelry based on the photo of your feet (IF those actually are your feet…). So, imagine a SDA coming up to you and saying, “ya know, you can live your life without wearing any jewelry. There’s absolutely no need to wear jewelry IMHO”. And then you ask, “but what’s the harm in wearing jewelry, specifically my toe rings”? He replies, “because your feet can enjoy the feeling of sand as you walk on the beach just as much as without your toe rings.”




                    1
                  2. Sorry everyone!

                    I put my thoughts on Notepad first since my phone often deletes what I write if the browser refreshes. I accidentally copied and pasted everything from my past couple of posts.

                    What I meant to post was this:

                    Johan… thanks a lot for your kind words! And btw: I don’t think I’m a Saint. I’m not 100% polite. But I didn’t totally trash RVs the way she made it sound.

                    Ok. You’re getting so caught up on the 1200w blender and Carotenoids. I already admitted once or twice that cooking for Carotenoids is inferior to a 1200w blender.

                    Sorry, Bob many be a really nice guy, but he’s still wrong in saying that if you cook your veggies you’ll likely develop cancer. And I admitted to being wrong by engaging Bob first to understand his knowledge of raw veganism and approaches to extracting Carotenoids for bioavailability.

                    You’re entire paradigm by which you argue seems to be that there’s ‘no reason at all to cook foods at all’ since you get all nutrients on a raw diet. I’ve already pointed out several times that you can certainly sprout a lot of grains and legumes as an alternative to cooking. But, I can make the inverse claim: “There’s absolutely no reason to avoid cooking sweet potatoes”. See? That’s a simple, true statement too. I can make the same claims of legumes… “Although sprouting is certainly a great option, (assuming one is clear about how to reduce dangerous Lectin levels) there’s absolutely no reason to avoid cooking legumes as well”.

                    Raw vegans act as if cooking is such a horrible thing… as if killing off “enzymes” is like taking them to a slaughterhouse. I’ve already addressed enzymes, stomach acids, the fallacious reasoning… to which you had no response.

                    Yes, we know you can sprout Soybeans if you wish to have a great anti-breast/prostate cancer source. But, you go so far to claim Tofu is “Junk food”. Dr. Greger has repeatedly pointed to studies that demonstrate how processed soy products, including Tofu and even Soy milk have greatly reduced the risk of breast cancer in trials. We can also point (again) to the Japanese population pre-1950 where breast cancer was almost non-existent, and I can assure you it from sprouting soy beans. They’re heavy Tofu consumers.

                    Like I’ve said repeatedly, RV is an ideology. It’s about protecting enzymes at all cost. It has to be, since we can all agree that there’s absolutely no reason to avoid the inclusion of cooking and processing methods for certain healthy foods like legumes, Carotenoids foods, and grains.

                    I’d also like to know if there have been studies on using 1200w blenders break down mycochitin walls to reduce the levels of hydrazine/agaritine, as effectively as cooking the mushrooms. As we know, mushrooms are an anti-cancer powerhouse, so hopefully RVs can enjoy their aromatase inhibiting effects by blending. (I’m not being sarcastic).

                    How about green tea leaves? Does a 1200w blender extract as much EGCG out of dry tea leaves? (Again, I’m not being sarcastic).

                    One final point I’ll make to give you food for thought: 1/2 of my family follow the lifestyle of Seventh Day Adventism. This means: no dancing and no jewelry. So, think of yourself… you clearly wear jewelry based on the photo of your feet (IF those actually are your feet…). So, imagine a SDA coming up to you and saying, “ya know, you can live your life without wearing any jewelry. There’s absolutely no need to wear jewelry IMHO”. And then you ask, “but what’s the harm in wearing jewelry, specifically my toe rings”? He replies, “because your feet can enjoy the feeling of sand as you walk on the beach just as much as without your toe rings.”




                    0
              2. Very good point, Johan003. Cooking allowed our primitive ancestors to consume sufficient calories without having to chew away all day long. It actually advanced our survival. Cooking soy foods (tempeh and tofu) helps digestibility, as does cooking nuts at low temperatures. Cook away, plant based eaters!!!

                –Lisa




                0
                1. Lisa, I hope you allow this final post, because it’s an important component of this conversation, and for those in the community who are debating whether they should go Raw, I’ve summarized some points for them to consider.

                  I never once claimed Growing Young is missing nutrients on a RV diet. And if I did, she should show me… quote me.

                  I’ve repeatedly said that an RV can get plenty of phytonutrients, but in many cases has to follow the path of sprouting and blending. I’ve already been over the foods and the leaders of plant based nutrition that recommend them (in a non-raw form). You know the foods and leaders to which I’m referring. You simply choose to extract the nutrients by using various raw methods. Cool.

                  I did, however, ask you about mushrooms (hydrazine) and green tea (EGCG) regarding blending (is it possible, safe, risky) and you completely ignored my questions or don’t have an answer.

                  And the only reason this all started was that BOB stated a mistruth by saying “you’ll LIKELY get CANCER if you “COOK veggies”. So I figured, if Bob was misguided there, then maybe he didn’t realize that there’s absolutely no DOWNSIDE or reason to avoid:

                  (1) Steaming Crucifers for Sulforaphane
                  (2) Cooking Mushrooms for Aromatase inhibitors
                  (3) Drinking Green Tea for EGCG
                  (4) Consuming Tofu/Tempeh for Isoflavones
                  (5) Cooking Beans for Phytates
                  (6) Cooking greatly enhances the bio-availability of Curcumin.

                  They all have anti-cancer effects (among other benefits), none of these examples are in raw form, and they’re all safe to consume.

                  So I went ahead and offered the suggestion to Bob of including cooked foods. Then, you said there’s absolutely no reason to COOK foods (TRUE). I continue to say there’s absolutely no reason to AVOID cooking foods (ALSO TRUE).

                  So that’s basically it.

                  You refuse to cook foods for some unknown reason. I’m left to assume it’s protecting “live enzymes” since you HAVE NOT ONCE listed any deleterious effects of cooking the foods that I have again mentioned above. And I support the benefits of cooking (with NO ADVERSE effect) some foods.




                  2
  20. You obviously have avoided mostly everything I’ve written regarding studies, specific nutrients etc. That’s fine.

    You’re clearly unable to move on from your point that you can use a 1200w blender to get Carotenoids.

    Again, your entire premise is that “there’s absolutely no reason to cook foods IMHO”.

    And I’ll continue to say, “There’s absolutely no reason to AVOID cooking foods”.

    You’re being cult-like for protecting “live” enzymes. Good luck.




    0
    1. It’s you who keeps on bringing up the 1200 watt blender, not me.

      I have asked you to state one single nutrient that i need that i need to cook food to get, and you can’t.

      Just more straw man fallacies.

      Nuff said.




      0
      1. I’m just curious, if you only believe in eating raw food, why you have a recipe for a potato, chickpea, mushroom salad recipe on your website since all these items must be cooked.




        0
        1. Hi Johan

          It’s a recipe i created as i was transitioning to raw, when i began to experiment with raw fresh ground spice and curry mixes.

          There’s a few cooked vegan recipes on my site, they’re nice recipes and i feel no need to throw them away and not share them just because i don’t eat them any more.

          To be honest, i need to update that recipe as the raw curry sauce it uses has been vastly improved since. :-D

          At no point have i ever said that anyone should only eat raw food. At no point have i said that cooked food is wrong to eat. Casper has just conjured up a paranoid delusion in his head that all raw vegans are intent on converting the world and telling everyone that cooked food is bad and evil. This simply isn’t true about most raw vegans. As i said, casper is simply using all the cliched stereotyping arguments from carnists toward vegans and applying them as a vegan towards raw vegans.

          There’s far more important issues within vegan diets that vegans should worry about than whether someone eats raw or cooked food.




          0
          1. Gosh. You really are stubborn.

            I never once claimed you are missing nutrients on a RV diet. And if I did, show me, quote me.

            I’ve repeatedly said that an RV can get plenty of phytonutrients, but in many cases has to follow the path of sprouting and blending. I’ve already been over the foods and the leaders of plant based nutrition that recommend them (in a non-raw form). You know the foods and leaders to which I’m referring. You simply choose to extract the nutrients by using various raw methods. Cool.

            I did, however, ask you about mushrooms (hydrazine) and green tea (EGCG) regarding blending (is it possible, safe, risky) and you completely ignored my questions or don’t have an answer.

            And the only reason this all started was that BOB stated a mistruth by saying “you’ll LIKELY get CANCER if you “COOK veggies”. So I figured, if Bob was misguided there, then maybe he didn’t realize that there’s absolutely no DOWNSIDE or reason to avoid:

            (1) Steaming Crucifers for Sulforaphane (2) Cooking Mushrooms for Aromatase inhibitors (3) Drinking Green Tea for EGCG (4) Consuming Tofu/Tempeh for Isoflavones (5) Cooking Beans for Phytates (6) Cooking enhances bioavailability of Curcumin

            They all have anti-cancer effects (among other benefits), none of these examples are in raw form, and they’re all safe to consume.

            So I went ahead and offered the suggestion to Bob of including cooked foods. Then, you said there’s absolutely no reason to COOK foods (TRUE). I continue to say there’s absolutely no reason to AVOID cooking foods (ALSO TRUE).

            So that’s basically it.

            You refuse to cook foods for some unknown reason. I’m left to assume it’s protecting “live enzymes” since you HAVE NOT ONCE listed any deleterious effects of cooking the foods that I have again mentioned above. And I support the benefits of cooking (with NO ADVERSE effect) some foods.

            Btw: You keep referring to me as using all the carnist, anti-vegan arguments against raw veganism. This is where you REALLY go over the top. First of all, I’ve been practicing veganism for about 10 years. So I’m not anti-vegan at all. You keep paralleling Non-raw vegans with carnists, acting as if we (who cook our food) are just doing it for selfish reasons with disregard for live enzymes, the way carnists allow cows to be slaughtered.

            We non-raw vegans don’t need your approval to feel humane about cooking our food and killing live enzymes.

            You continue to act like my Seventh Day Adventist example, to which (again) you completely ignored. You’re an elitist and you continue to prove my point about RVs.




            0
      2. Gosh. You really are stubborn.

        I never once claimed you are missing nutrients on a RV diet. And if I did, show me, quote me.

        I’ve repeatedly said that an RV can get plenty of phytonutrients, but in many cases has to follow the path of sprouting and blending. I’ve already been over the foods and the leaders of plant based nutrition that recommend them (in a non-raw form). You know the foods and leaders to which I’m referring. You simply choose to extract the nutrients by using various raw methods. Cool.

        I did, however, ask you about mushrooms (hydrazine) and green tea (EGCG) regarding blending (is it possible, safe, risky) and you completely ignored my questions or don’t have an answer.

        And the only reason this all started was that BOB stated a mistruth by saying “you’ll LIKELY get CANCER if you “COOK veggies”. So I figured, if Bob was misguided there, then maybe he didn’t realize that there’s absolutely no DOWNSIDE or reason to avoid:

        (1) Steaming Crucifers for Sulforaphane (2) Cooking Mushrooms for Aromatase inhibitors (3) Drinking Green Tea for EGCG (4) Consuming Tofu/Tempeh for Isoflavones (5) Cooking Beans for Phytates

        They all have anti-cancer effects (among other benefits), none of these examples are in raw form, and they’re all safe to consume.

        So I went ahead and offered the suggestion to Bob of including cooked foods. Then, you said there’s absolutely no reason to COOK foods (TRUE). I continue to say there’s absolutely no reason to AVOID cooking foods (ALSO TRUE).

        So that’s basically it.

        You refuse to cook foods for some unknown reason. I’m left to assume it’s protecting “live enzymes” since you HAVE NOT ONCE listed any deleterious effects of cooking the foods that I have again mentioned above. And I support the benefits of cooking (with NO ADVERSE effect) some foods.

        Btw: You keep referring to me as using all the carnist, anti-vegan arguments against raw veganism. This is where you REALLY go over the top. First of all, I’ve been practicing veganism for about 10 years. So I’m not anti-vegan at all. You keep paralleling Non-raw vegans with carnists, acting as if we (who cook our food) are just doing it for selfish reasons with disregard for live enzymes, the way carnists allow cows to be slaughtered.

        We non-raw vegans don’t need your approval to feel humane about cooking our food and killing live enzymes.

        You continue to act like my Seventh Day Adventist example, to which (again) you completely ignored. You’re an elitist and you continue to prove my point about RVs.




        0
  21. How about some reference to actual research articles? That would support the statements and provide some material to further convince oneself, at least to the more research keen readers.




    0
  22. I read recently that diets high in polyphenols actually block the conversion of TMA — TMAO in the gut by paralyzing the particular bacteria that facilitate that conversion. I know Dr. Steven Gundry has mentioned this in his most recent book, but I have not been able to find documentation supporting this, so…..if you have any sources supporting or refuting this statement, please post them to add to this discussion. Thank you.




    0
  23. What would Dr Gregor or just the science say about the colon cleanse fad like american botanical pharmacy? Many of my friends r u doing it but I am sceptical. I am plant based vegan and once or twice a day occassionallt three. So whats w the gross pics that these colon fads show ??




    0
  24. I’ve been reading about how resveratrol and other polyphenols suppress the formation of TMAO by our gut bacteria. I don’t have time to read through all these comments and read the transcript to see if this is mentioned in this post. If it isn’t, it should be. Google it, there are many references to studies detailing this protective effect of polyphenols.




    0

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Pin It on Pinterest

Share This
[i]
[i]